S5Dewey

Yes. I agree with this. I'm confident that the FO has short-term goals and long-term goals. We as fans just don't know what they are - as well we shouldn't, because if we know then everyone knows and letting your competition know what your goals are is poor strategy. It's possible that the FO has the intention of worrying about 2019 in 2019.... or they may have plans in place to partially blow the team up later by not signing anyone who's heading to FA-gency. Or it may be something else. We don't know and we have no control over it. Since I make a concerted effort to not worry about things I have no control over I'm going to enjoy this ride for the next 2-3 years and let them worry about 2019.

After I read the post that started this dust-up I decided to write a post that would express what I think should happen, and I was going to do it very logically. First I designated Sale, Price, and Porcello as our top -3-gonna-start-no-matter-what guys. That took them out of the conversation. Then I was left with Buch, Kelly, Wright and Pom to decide on for our last two, with the other two being sent to.... I dunno... purgatory, I guess. :-( And do you know what? I can make a solid case for any two of those guys to be #'s 4 & 5. Buch has got ACE stuff. Kelly can touch 100 on the gun, sometimes with control - but sometimes not. But he finished strong at the end of 2016 Wright - Was leading the staff until he got hurt last year. Pom - Good enough to be a #4 or #5 for almost anyone, but is untried in the pen. Given what we've got I'm tempted to go with Buch and Wright as #'s 4 & 5. Kelly can come out of the pen until we need another starter. But that leaves us with Pom as a long reliever, and as Slash says, I'd hate to think we traded our best prospect for a middle reliever. But... is that a reason to not do it if it makes the team better? I ended up throwing up my arms in frustration and saying, "Screw it. There IS no good answer to this." What a pleasant problem to have, though.

In response to Moon's post, which I'm not going to litter up the board with by "replying" to it... I know I need to familiarize myself with the new CBA, but weren't we talking a week or so ago about changes in the CBA that could minimize the high $ long term contracts that players are now getting? And if there are changes like that in the offing, aren't those changes going to work in our benefit 4-7 years down the road?

That would be an interesting way to decide it, but the entire spring training may not be long enough to let those two guys "race" around the bases.

As I mentioned earlier in another thread, O'Brian said that the starting catcher this year may be determined by the pitching staff. Right now I see it as Leon's job to lose, but with Vaz on his heels Leon may... or may not... lose it.

There are two conflicting theories as to how to win the World Series. Theory #1 is to assemble as many blue-chip players as a team can. This team will go into the WS favored to win it... and often will. Theory #2 is to get there and after that "anything can happen". After all, it's been proven time and time again that the team with the best players doesn't always win the WS. It appears that DD is currently favoring Theory #!. He's assembled players at... seven... positions who would have a legitimate shot at winning some kind of personal award- MVP, GG SS, CY. That's pretty impressive! While it doesn't guarantee a WS win it would seem that this would be a good team to bet on to win it all. And that's where we are now. Looking to the future there's a lot to be said for our chances if you like Theory #2. We've got players signed to longer term contracts, some of whom will probably be extended into what some of us think are the 'lean years', 4-7 years down the road. The bad news is that some of them won't be extended, too. But that core of players who will be extended combined with players like Devers and Groome could very well be a team that makes the post-season, and after that... well... anything can happen! I believe the Sox will do well for the next 3-4 seasons, and after that while they may not be a powerhouse they'll be a team who'll make the playoffs...and we all know what that means.

"On the wings of a snow white dove".

I'e got to agree that anything north of Bangor is true "man" territory. Once you get much North of Bangor on I-95 it's even money whether you're going to meet another car or a wild animal first. I mean... seriously... you can go for miles and miles between exits, and there are NO homes to be seen between exits!

Guns are a bit unreliable. To make a long story short, I was at a College Regional where a scout said about a particular pitcher, "We had him at 96 on the JUGS gun but they had him at 94 on the RAY gun. The JUGS gun is always a bit higher."

No F Way! that puts me in with those clowns from North Boston!

You're entirely too generous. I'd draw that line kinda slashways between Jackman & Bath. Anything South of that line is really just North Boston.

This is simply an excellent post. Thanks for reminding us that as fans not only do we not know all the answers, we often don't even know all the questions. And we shouldn't.

I'm not denying that this could bite us on the ass in the 2020's. It's going to depend on how well we draft, and realistically the chances of getting a blue-chip player in the draft gets lesser and lesser the farther down we draft. But that's the price a team pays for winning- which IMO is better than losing and not paying that price! We've had some really good teams in the JH era as well as some crappy ones. If we have a bad team in 2022 as a result of at least one WSC in 2017-2020 it'll make up for what may be another crappy team in 2022. In the whole scope of things I wouldn't give up any one of those WS rings in exchange for finishing even 2nd in the AL East in 2014 & 2015. Mediocrity is not the goal. Winning the WS is the goal and the Sox are all-in on doing it for the next three years. Maybe we'll win at least one and maybe we won't but at least we'll know that we've "left it all on the field" and didn't settle for mediocrity.

rofl !!!

Which fits perfectly because we shouldn't need this talent for the next three seasons.

I agree that the difference between the two of them is small right now. I was pleasantly surprised by Leon's defense last year especially since he was picked up as an "emergency catcher", and it's not outside the realm of possibility that the team will break camp with the two of them being the catching staff. If that happens then the decision as to who's the starting catcher may be made - as Dave O'Brian said - by the pitching staff. If that's the case then there's not much to choose from between the two. If the difference between the two is that small and Leon is a starting catcher then Vazquez is better than being a backup catcher and could probably start for many teams. IMO Vazquez' ceiling is higher both offensively and defensively than is Leon's, which is why I still think Vaz will be the starting catcher by early in the summer.

I agree. He does all of those things as well as any backup catcher in MLB. The thing is, he also does them as well as many full-time catchers in MLB. He doesn't have to be 'THE BEST CATCHER in MLB' to start for the Red Sox and IMO he's being sold short by only comparing him to the minor league catchers. As to ranking him among baseball catchers, I can't do that. I see probably 150+ Red Sox games over a summer and a handful of other games so I don't see every catcher. I do know what I see as compared to the other Red Sox catchers and catchers on opposing teams and I see him as being as good or better defensively in the areas of blocking balls in the dirt and throwing runners out as most of the catchers I've seen. I'll confess that I've been unable to find data on where he ranks as a pitch framer but it's reputed to be one of this biggest strengths. I'm not a scout either so I can't get into the area of pitch calling and the pitcher's comfort level with him. Those are things that come through the clubhouse and things I'm not privy to. He currently has a ML WAR of 1.4 over two seasons which IMO would qualify him for better than backup status. While the argument can be made that the SS is small at the same time it's the only sample size we've got so it is meaningful within that context. Sandy Leon has done a great job but his strength was his totally unsustainable hitting and he came back to earth during the latter part of the 2016 season. I fully expect him to revert back to what he is in 2017 - a fine backup catcher who struggles to get over the Mendoza line and with an OPS of ~.500, which is fine for a backup catcher..I guess. OTOH I see Vaz as having a slight improvement as he gets more experience (in this case the SSS combined with his youth works in his favor) and he'll hit ~.250 with an OPS >.600. Not great, but his defensive tools make him a starting catcher. So that's why I think he's good enough to start, but you still haven't told me what areas he has to improve in defensively for you to see him as a starter.

As I like to tell people, don't answer a question with a question. Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?

Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?

Which makes more sense than comparing Iggy to Ted Williams! Even *I* didn't do that!! What I was comparing was two players who were both in the minors at the same time, both of whom were considered to be nothing better than replacement players. Both of them were on the cusp of making the Sox at the same time. One of them has made it to the bigs while the other one got injured. Whether that second one makes it remains to be seen, but it's worth mentioning that the offensive expectations for a catcher are normally lower than for a CF'er. IOW Vaz doesn't have to have an OPS >.800.. but it sure would be nice if he did!

YES! We now have someone comparing Iggy to Ted Williams!!

This is the same type of discussion that was had before JBJ blossomed. "Great defensive player, but will never be able to hit. Will never be anything more than a defensive replacement.". IMHO Vazquez will be the starting catcher by June 1, not because he hits like Buster Posey, but because of his stellar defense and the fact that DD loves defense.

Yes. And we can go back to that. We can (theoretically) send Benintendi, Betts, Vazquez and all those with less than three years seniority back to Pawtucket and we'll have a GREAT minor league system that we can brag about - while the Sox finish last again. Whether Vaz is "massively overrated" remains to be seen, and even then whether he's overrated will depend on the person doing the rating and how much emphasis that person doing the rating puts on defense. My point is that we have to go forward from where we are. It would be great if we had Moncada, etc. + Sale but we don't. There is no do-overs on the trades we've made. We have what we have for talent and it can't be in both Pawtucket and Boston at the same time. I'd rather see that proven talent at the ML level than in Pawtucket regardless of how strong the Pawsox or the Sea Dogs would be with them there. So let's not whine about how weak things are in Pawtucket. All things being equal we have three years (minimum) to rebuild that system.

I've got two kids, both born in December (3rd & 12th). My ex-wife wouldn't even shake hands with me in March.

Thanks Slash. There's another one in Portland put on by the Sea Dogs in January but the format is a lot different. The one in Portland is a buffet dinner with mostly Sea Dogs exec's and player alumni and often a guest speaker whom we all recognize. Last year it was Johnny Damon and this year it's Jason Varitek. And there's no Q & A period. This one is decidedly NOT free, but the proceeds go to "Stamp out Cancer in Kids" so it's a great cause. If there's interest I'll post about that when it happens. On a personal note if you don't mind... my son has a birthday in December and that's always my birthday gift to him. It's a nice baseball/bonding evening for dad and son.