moonslav59

Actually, he wasn't the "worst offensive 3Bman who played FT." He was 22nd out of 24 who "qualified". Headley and Garcia were worse in OPS. The team had the worst 3B OPS (.685) thanks mostly to Hill and other. The issue was more about how Shaw looked to end the season. I know one could argue that the Shaw that ended the 2015 season and started the 2016 season could be the "real" Shaw, or that he's somewhere in between that Shaw and the one that ended the season, which wouldn't be "the worst", but clea4rly it would be pretty bad. I am close to losing faith with Shaw, because I see his unimpressive numbers at AA and AAA, which when combined are double the sample sizes of his career MLB .754 OPS, and I think that while .754 is not even near the worst, .745 might be a dream. I doubt we look for an outside long term solution at 3B, unless we are looking at trading Moncada or Devers or someone else at another position we plan to move somebody to. We might try for a 1 year option like trading for Todd Frazier, but with all these guys on the roster, I think we'll let them sort themselves out and revisit during the season. T Shaw Sandoval Moncada Holt Hernandez Rutledge (Devers farther away)

That's true, but normally the best way to improve your team is to start with the weakest positions and seek to make them much better. With Moncada, Devers and a guy making over $19M a year fighting for the job with Shaw, I can see the merit in not spending big to improve 3B, especially with a long term solution, unless we plan on trading Moncada or Devers.

Maybe by adding Devers and Kopech.

Note: I'm not saying I want to do this, but could it happen? Trade:JBJ, Pomeranz, Moncada, Shaw, Owens & Johnson For: Quintana, Robertson & Frazier Sign:Carlos Beltran & Uehara Take Buch's option & let Hanigan go Here's what we'd be looking at: 1) Bogaerts SS 2) Pedroia 2B 3) Betts RF 4) Beltran DH/LF 5) Ramirez 1B 6) Frazier 3B 7) Benintendi CF 8) Young LF /Swihart DH 9) Leon/Vazquez C SP: Quintana, Price, Porcello, ERod, Wright RP: Kimbrel, Robertson, Uehara, Buchholz, Kelly, Ross, Smith/Barnes/Hembree

I'd rather have Tito or Madden. I'm not blaming our ending on JF (I try to avoid the blame game), but I don't think he helped much.

While they certainly look well set up for years to come, nobody "dominates" anymore.

I have us at about $185M after all arbs and Buch's option- leaving us about $5M. The LT will go up this year, most think by a lot.

Sign someone not named Encarnacion for the DH (unless EE can be had for a reasonable price, which I see as unlikely). We can't replace Papi but we can get some power help for the linup, which is always a good thing. Maybe "EE lite" a/k/a Bautista? He'll probably be cheaper and for fewer years. We came within inches of getting Beltran at the deadline. He's old, so a short term deal is what we want anyways. He plays the wrong position, but if we just want a DH, he's a true switch hitter- equally good from both sides. Maybe Young would then platoon with Beni or give JBJ some time off vs LHPs as well. A one year great hitting 3Bman would be ideal, but where is that coming from? By all means sign Koji. He's Plan B in case Kimbrel continues to pitch like he has no control over where the ball is going once he lets go of it. If we end up needing a Plan C, at least we had a Plan B. Agreed Ideally that power hitting DH I mentioned above should be capable of playing 3B. (And I know, that eliminates Bautista. But I said this was ideally). Maybe a converted 3Bman. This guy could be our Plan E if things don't work out with The Fat Man and Plans B, C, & D. Or he could be the bridge between a failing Fat Man and Moncada with a DH by committee during that time. Then if Moncada doesn't work out and we have to go shopping again we'll have the option of looking for either a DH or a 3Bman. We could sign Turner at 3B and use Moncada to get that young pitcher.

He's already proven he's willing to go over. This year we're at 50%, and I can see us going over some, but not by a whole lot. I do think Henry would love to reset the luxury tax timer, but it doesn't have to be this year. There is a way to sign a guy like EE and then trade for Quintana or Sale and still stay under the limit. We'd still need pen help , and maybe someone to plug the hole we made to get Quintana (JBJ?).

I'm not trying to "save" Henry money. The fact is, he's always stayed right near the luxury limit and has spent more on contracts that don't count on the tax (Craig & Castillo currently), but until I see him willing to go way over the limit and join the Dodgers and Yankees in the stratosphere, I'm operating on the assumption he's not going to fill your complete wishlist. I'd love it if he did. I'd love to have EE, Quintana and Jansen. Sign me up! I just don't think it's realistic. Sure, you can make a compelling argument that Henry can afford it. He can. He can pay the whole leagues payroll, but that doesn't mean he will. He's already been burned spending big. Nearly every one of his biggest contracts have been disappointments. He's a business man. He learns from mistakes and avoids repeating them.

First of all, elsewhere from this post, someone suggested getting Kenley Jansen, the Dodger free agent. That is highly unlikely as the Dodgers sports writers list his resigning as the #1 thing the Dodgers need to do. Jansen will make the final decision, and we certainly have enough to outbid the Dodgers. The big question is, do we want to? We're already paying Kimbrel closer money. I'm not saying I'm for signing Jansen or Chapman, or even Melancon, but it would greatly improve out team in our biggest need area. I guess I'd have to see what the cost would be. A lost draft pick is also a strong consideration. Chapman won't have one, but his other issues turn me off, personally. Melancon is probably not going to earn anywhere near what he'll make in an offseason with no great starters on the market. GMs will look for the next best thing: a better closer. I'm thinking we should sign Koji and trade for a solid number 2 that could close, if needed.

I do see some merit in trying to lessen the impact of losing Papi by acquiring a big bat, but I'm thinking there may be a bit of "either/or" working here, and I think signing a big bat at 3B, 1B or DH is going to cost a lot and for many years. With Moncada, Devers and maybe others beating at the door looking for an open position that just isn't there (beyond the one: 3B/DH- whichever we don't acquire in this scenario). I'm thinking with Young being so great vs LHPs, we only really need a good bat vs RHPs. With the glut at 3B of mediocrity, questions and promise, it's not hard to imagine two out of them being successful (Moncada, Pablo, Shaw, Hernandez, Holt, Rutledge & S Travis). I think we wait it out and maybe pounce at the deadline, if things don't work out. My guess is we spend most of our available resources on the pen, and I think it's the right choice.

I'm pretty certain Ziegler will want to end his career out West, and Tazawa is probably not worth the risk of what his contract might be, so to me, Koji may be the only RP'er of the three that may return. There's really not much better out there that won't want "closer money", so maybe there's a good chance he returns. I'd like to see it happen, but I'm not married to the idea, as long as we upgrade significantly. I don't think just bringing Koji back and hoping others perform as promised will be enough. Apparently, Carson Smith won't return until May at the earliest, Is anybody here happy with this as our pen? Closer: Kimbrel Set-up: Uehara Set-up: Carson Smith (May/June?) Set-up: Kelly Middle Relief: R Ross Middle Relief: M Barnes Middle Relief: Buch/Wright/Pomeranz (the 6th starter) Middle Relief: Hembree (until Smith comes back? He's out of options.) Out of options: Abad & Elias Reserves on the farm: Scott, Workman, Owens, Johnson, Kopech, Martin, N Ramirez & Jerez,

It seems to strange to think of the Cubs as favorites. I'd love to see them break the curse. I'd love to see Theo thumb his nose at Larry L. I'd like to see Lester, Lackey and other ex-Sox players do well. However, I almost always pull for the underdog, and that is Tito's Guardians. Plus, I always liked Napoli. Go Guardians!

I think Kelly may become a fine number 2 RP'er. I do think he may go back to starting at some point, but for now, I think we'll see if he can help fill the void left by departing Koji, Ziegler and Taz. I think if Buch gets traded, we'll see Price, Porcello, Pomeranz, ERod & Wright- not Kelly.

Sounds realistic. One thing we have going for us, assuming no major injuries, is that other than losing Papi (a big one), we should improve in many areas due to this... 1) 6 months of Beni not 2. 2) 6 months of Pom not 2ish. 3) 3-5 months of Carson Smith not zero. 4) 6 months of Swihart not 2ish. 5) More starts available from Wright, ERod, Buchholz & Pom (see above). 6) Possible big steps up by Barnes, Hembree, Scott, Elias, Johnson and/or Owens.

I would have put catcher at #4, but with Leon, Vazquez and Swihart in the fold, I seriously doubt we go outside the system to find someone this winter. Hanigan's option will not be given. Holaday is out of minor league options, so he is likely gone too.

I'm always for trying to get an ace, and I hope we kick the tires on Quintana or Sale, but since we already traded Espi for Pomeranz and Buch is likely to return, I think this is not the winter it happens. We had 6 starters with a top 30 half season this year, and Porcello nealry had two top 30 half seasons. That's enough promise to go on, I suppose. With 3 glaring needs ahead of SP'ing, I doubt it happens this winter. 1) We need to upgrade the pen. 2) We need to decide what to do about 3B. 3) We need to find a way to lessen the impact of Papi's retirement. Only the pen definitely cannot be fixed from within the system. The other two have possibilities within the system: 3B: Pablo/Shaw/Moncada/Hernandez/Holy/Rutledge DH: Pablo-Young platoon/Swihart-Young platoon/ Moncada-Young platoon/HanRam vs RHPs (Shaw/Travis/Pablo to 1B vs righties?)-Young vs LHPs

It's Tito vs Madden. We had Tito, and we almost got Madden, instead of Tito way back when. Should be a great series.

Let's look forward to 2017. We have a great core to work with. We have $30-40M to spend to the new limit. We have some prospects to deal, if needed, and still have enough left over to keep our future bright enough. Let's hope 2017 brings better.

I'm fine with dropping the subject once and for all.

Iggy was hitting when we traded him, but people still viewed him as "no hit", but I guess with Drew, it was okay to view him as "good hit" despite the fact that he slumpes and then sucked in 2014 while Iggy hit well for us and for the Tigers his next season he played (2015).

This is all beside the point. When we had Drew, we needed Drew because we didn't have another shortstop until X-Bo was ready. We got Iglesias as a way to hedge our bets on Bogaerts, having just been burned by Will Middlebrooks, that was understandable. Bogaerts turned out to be good to go, or at least to a point where he'd benefit from big league time. Leaving the question, what do you do with Iglesias? Umm, we got Iggy before Bogey. The question with us Iggy supporters was never about Iggy or Bogey, it was always Iggy (SS) AND Bogey (3B). That's what "you do with Iggy". If you operate on the assumption that it shouldn't be THAT hard to obtain a decent 3B in the wake of the Middlebrooks fiasco, it would be a waste of the potential of one of those two very, very talented young shortstops to play either of them at third longterm. That means that the best way to use those two young assets is to trade one of them for something you need. 1) I don't operate on the assumption that finding 3Bmen are easy or cheap. Pablo and Headley prove that point. To me, it's about Bogey's D at SS. The big plus we get from having a great hitting SS is not as big of a differential than it used to be. SSs hit about as well as 3Bmen these days. Last 3 years: SS OPS .669>.681>.726 3B OPS .714>.738>.773 2) Having Iggy at SS and Bogey at 3B would have saved us from signing Drew in 2014 and Pablo in 2015. I don't know a single fan on this team that wasn't glad we had Iglesias. The difference I see now between one camp and the other, is that one camp is always going to be in favor of trading surplus young talent to build the team in an effort to win championships. And the other is in favor of the older mindset that it's better to find ways to fit the talent you have into a team that works, rather than going to the market and making big plays. Wrong. I have suggested huge blockbuster trades involving our young players, so it's not about that. Personally I'm mostly with the former group. This is a big market franchise, it doesn't make sense for us to act like we aren't. We had a chance to make a play to improve our chances in the postseason in a year when we had every chance in the postseason. It was the right thing to do to trade Iglesias at the time we traded Iglesias, the only quibble possible is whether you liked the return or not. That's because you can't go along with the idea of moving Bogey to 3B. Even if it didn't work out exactly as hoped, it's always the right move to make that kind of play when you're in that kind of position. THat kind of strong postseason push opportunity is exactly what you hoard talent FOR. If you're a good bet for the postseason, do everything you possibly can to give yourself as good a shot as possible. If you don't make it through because you spent the month of July counting your hoarded prospects, and let a shot at a winnable championship slip through your fingers as a result, you are not doing your best by your ownership or your fanbase. There is nothing -- NOTHING -- more important in this sport than winning championships. You are assuming Peavy was a reason we won a championship and Iggy would not have been able to help us win championships had we kept him.

On the other thread, you just said it's all about rings. Did these signings lead to rings?

Yes I did, you complained about me counting 2014, so I threw out 2014 for Drew and Iggy. My argument was still the same though less startling with the numbers. Iggy hit very closely to what Drew did in 2013. He fielded better. He got paid $2M to Drew's $10M.