moonslav59

Really? What for 1 year? His best year he pitched just 168.2 IP (2.61 ERA/1.04 WHIP). His only other decent season was the following year (2015) when he went 15-12 3.65/1.24 in 207 IP. He then did jack for 3 straight years- never going over 77 IP. Come on, Jacko. An "ace?" Yes, for those 2 short seasons, Richards was better than Eovaldi ever was, but that was way back in 2014 & 2015. I think the Richards-Eovaldi comp is a good one, since both have been hurt a lot the last 3 years.

JBJ is still my favorite player, but I seriously doubt he's back next year, unless we non tender him, and he agrees to come back at a lower than arb cost. Porcello will cost too much to bring back to a team looking to reset. We can't afford either of them, especially, if as you said, we will be contenders in 2020, and we reset.

100% guaranteed.

Well, if he's as good as Boggs, he'd be worth it. If he's like Rice, who petered out after 33-34, he wouldn't be. OPS by Boggs & Rice at these ages Betts next contract: Boggs/Rice age 28 year 1 .939 (3rd best ever)/.755 age 29 year 2 1.049 (best ever)/.868 age 30 year 3 .965 (2nd best ever)/.911 age 31 year 4 .879/.791 age 32 year 5 .804/.836 age 33 year 6 .881/.874 age 34 year 7 .711/.766 age 35 year 8 .740/.736 age 36 year 9 .922/.621 age 37 year 10 .834/out of baseball

We have a few aged prospects in the minors: age prospect rank on soxprospects.com 24 Dalbec 3 23 Duran 4 23 Houck 7 24 Chtaham 10 25 Shawaryn 22 23 Crawford 24 24 Bazardo 28 25 Lakins 30 25 Fitzgerald 33 23 J Diaz 38 23 Ockimey 40

Playoff contenders or legitimate ring contenders?

I think the word is a little too extreme, but I'm okay with using the word. To me, decimated means totally stripped of any value. Keeping Devers, Beni, ERod and DHern, among others is not total. The definition includes "removing a large percentage of...", so maybe it is appropriate.

Yes, he is. IMO, Betts is better than Boggs, too.

Pedro?

We can trade him and then re-sign him. Best of both worlds.

Yes. Best since Rice & Lynn.

It wouldn't make sense to chip in money on JBJ, since we can just non tender him, but I suppose, if someone were to offer us a very nice prospect, if we did, it might become worth it. I think we could get something for JD without pitching in much at all, but we likely would have to give a few million. Betts could bring back a very nice return. ERod, Workman and Barnes, too. I'm not saying I'm for a total fire sale, but there is some logic to doing it. With all the money saved, we could look to make a few strategic signings that can either bridge us to the next championship team or be part of it.

Can we take this to the playoff thread? Back to the Sox, if we trade JD, Betts and JBJ (if not non tendered), now high in the rankings might we jump? We are currently #22 with one ranking. What if we go farther and trade our 2 years guys- ERod, Workman & Barnes? We'd be left with Bogey, Devers, Vaz, Sale, Price, Eovaldi & DHern as the remaining core.

ThaaahhhhhhhHHHHHHHHhhhhhh! Yankeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzz Lose!

It doesn't. Even then.

The sell off was absolutely essential to the rebuild. I never said it was everything, but your trade-off and then jumping back into spending- like bringing Chapman back and signing 2 other top RPers was major. The sell-off was more than just about the prospects you got back, it was about freeing up budget space for future signings, in some cases. Yes, you had rebuilt the farm before that sell-off to respectability while being mediocre. You drafted well with mediocre and low picks (like Judge at 32), yet you say we cannot build up our farm while being mediocre. Am I correct on this? You don't see a disconnect there? Yes, our farm was good when we had our sell-offs, that's a good point. It's not good, now, but it has shown a jump in the most recent rankings, and who knows if we'll have some boost from low or mediocre picks from years past. The best part of the Sox 2012 sell-off was the budget space it freed up and allowed us to sign Vic & Napoli. In 2013, you just signed 2 guys to 7 year deals and still had some long term deals. I think you over-exaggerate our long term commitments and have totally written off Sale, Price and Eovaldi, which you have every right to do. The Yanks may have had a better farm back in 2013-2014, maybe not, but I happen to like this current set-up... 6 Bogey 5 Sale 3 Price 3 Eovaldi 3 Vaz better than your starting point... 7 Ellsbury 7 Tanaka 4 ARod 4 McCann 3 Teixeira 3 Sabathia 3 Beltran (Then, extended Gardner for 4 more years) Only Sale & Bogey are signed beyond 3 years starting in 2020. That's radically different from where the Yanks were.

Only in their pen.

Tell me what I got wrong in our "disconnect?" 1) You claim mediocrity makes it harder to rebuild (I agree). 2) You keep talking about the Yankee rebuild like it's the only way to rebuild (I disagree). 3) You keep saying the rebuild cannot be quick in these situations (You maybe be correct.) 4) You claimed the Yankee rebuild was 4 years long-hinting it might take us that long. I point out these facts: 1) The Yankee rebuild was not 4 years long. 2) The Yankees remained mediocre (84-87 wins) for the 4 years you cliam they were rebuilding- a very clear example of mediocrity. 3) The Yankees tried hard to win when they signed 5 guys to big deals- 4 were QO FAs and Tanaka got 7 years. (You denied Beltran was a QO FA and say Kurda should not count because he was a Yankee to begin with, like Porcello is right now going into a FA winter.) 4) The Yankees did draft and acquire a few prospects over the 4 years you speak of, but the bulk of the farm boost came from the fire sale that was at the very tail end of the 4 year rebuild you keep speaking of. Tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me where I misunderstand your positions stated. Look, I agree we need some sort of fire sale to quicken the rebuild. It is likely essential we need to trade JD, JBJ (if tradable) and Betts. If Price or Eovaldi show improvement, next year, we may have to try and trade them. I'm not sure about ERod or Barnes, but if we don't wait 3 years into a 4 year rebuild, like Cashman did, to have a fire sale, we can hasten the rebuild. We sold in 2012 and won in 2013. We sold in 2014 and began winning the division 3 times in a row less than 2 years later. Sell and then spend can bring quick results. Look closer at the Yankee model, and you'll see it was not really a 4 year rebuild. You were mediocre for 4 years, and you only turned it around after the fire sale. You can rebuild while mediocre. You can rebuild quickly and thoroughly.

In the winter of 14-15, the Yanks signed Miller to the biggest non closer deal in MLB history. They also signed Headley. $88M on 2 guys. One could view them as part of a rebuild, but it's not part of a don't be mediocre plan during the rebuild, you're trying to peddle on us. I may be mistaken, but I remember the bulk of the fire sale occured in 2016 and not over a 4 year period.

So, we should re-sign Porcello as part of a rebuild? Signing Kuroda and 4 other big names was an attempt to win not to rebuild. Why can't you just admit it.

I think he's stretched out a 1 year rebuild into 4 years and messed up some years and facts.

Yes, Beltran was a QO, and so was Kuroda, who you re-signed. That's 4 (Ellsbury & McCann). Tanaka was not a QO. That's 5 major signings. That's either rebuilding by free agency or it's not a rebuild like you have been expounding. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014-mlb-free-agent-tracker/team-19__status-1 You guys thought you could win after these massive signings. It was NOT the rebuild plan you are saying the Sox should do, right? So, cross off one year from your 4 year rebuild claim. Maybe cross off more from what you read next. You added the vast majority of prospects via trade in a very short window- not over 4 years. I'm not an expert on Yankee trades, but I recall their big fire sale was not spread over 4 or even 3 years. Almost all were within a year or 1.5 years. Right? And, stop with the "Is that what you want?" You know my position is to trade deadwood and free agents to be. This is not about us needing to have some sort of fire sale. We agree on that. Our argument is about quick rebuilds and turn arounds. The Sox did it twice: the Dodger dump which led to a ring the very next year and the 2014 pitcher dump which led to 3 division titles in a row less than 1.5 years later. You never responded to these examples.

Please. I've always respected you, buy you are losing my respect. 2013 was NOT ancillary pieces added. You guys signed 4 QO free agents plus Tanaka! Two were for 7 year contracts! At least admit your rebuild was just from 2014 to 2016. You've been saying mediocrity is not the way to rebuild, yet the model you keep using, your own team, did just that. It was not a 4 year rebuild. IMO, it was not even a 3 year rebuild; it was 1.5 to 2 years. I'm not arguing dismantling is not the key. I believe it is to some extent. You rebuilt when you sold your pieces for young players and prospects. That was not over a 4 year span. It was quick, and the turn around was quick. Our ring in 2013 was largely a result of the Dodger sell-off trade in August 2012. That was a less than one year rebuild and turn around. Our 3 division titles and ring in 2018 were helped by the pitching sell-off in 2014. We won 71 games in 2014, 78 in 2015 and then won the division 3 years in a row. That was a 1.5 year rebuild and complete turnaround. Quick turn arounds are doable, and I'm surprised you have forgotten such recent history already.

For argument's sake, let's say we trade JD and Betts and then sign Betts after 2020. Going into 2021, we'll be looking at this: Years remaining after 2020 6+ Betts 6 Bogey 4 Sale 2 Price 2 Eovaldi 1 Pedey 1 Vaz (w option for 1 more) ARBs for 2021 ERod 4 of 4 Barnes 3 of 3 Hembree 3 of 3 Beni 2 of 3 Devers 1 of 3

13-16 was 4 years. Not all our longer term contracts are sunken costs, although I know you see them that way. Sale may have surgery one year, but he can still give us a big boost in more years than not. Pedey has 2 years left. Price could be a big albatross, but it's 3 years not 4. Eovaldi has 3 not 4 left and may give us a healthy 2 years somewhere. Bogey's deal is a plus. JD will likely be gone- one way or another. Without JD, we have about $93M on the books for 2022 (not counting arbs). That's just 2 years from now. I'm hopeful, with some smart moves, we might be pretty good by 2021, but I do not think 2022 is a stretch. You keep using the Yankees rebuild model, like it is the only one, but I'll play along. One, you guys never sucked from 2013-2016, yet you keep saying mediocrity is a killer. You guys rebuilt while be mediocre for 4 years (84-87 wins all 4 years), so you're wrong there right off the bat. Two, in 2013, you had ARod on the books for 5 more years. Our longest is Bogey. You had CC & Tex or 4 years. We have Sale for 5 & Eovaldi for 3. After 2013, you didn't go into rebuild mode, you signed Tanaka & Ellsbury for 7 year deals along with McCann for 4 years and Beltran for 2. Please don't make it sound like you guys were "rebuilding" for 4 years. You signed 4 QO FAs that winter! You are making me literally LOL. You guys even extended Gardner for 4 years soon afterwards. Your rebuild did not start after 2013. So, what did you guys do the next winter? Signed Headley and Miller to 4 year deals. Your rebuild did not start after 2014. Come on! You guys spent over $217M in 2015 and 2016. You guys rebuilt be having a fire sale and spending big. It didn't take you 4 years to rebuild. It took you 2-3 years to figure out you needed to sell and 1-2 years to rebuild. Plus, you haven't made it back to the top just yet.