Dojji

yep. bad trade. Agreed. Duly conceded. I acknowledge the bad trade, have always acknowledged the bad trade, and if the last 9 aren't good enough and you need me to acknowledge for the 10th time that it was a bad trade I can do that too. Now, is it bad enough that we need to be remembering to whine about it 8 years 2 world series wins and a GM change later? Personally for that to be the case in my mind we'd need to see some huge opportunity for the team gone by the boards or some monster effort the team had to go to to replace the talent we lost in the teal. that's why I definitely rate the Renteria fiiasco as far worse for the team on the whole than what happened to Arroyo. That one was the beginning of what I dirisively called the shortstop-go-round where we went through shortstops like Hogawrts School of Witchcraft and wizardry went through Defense against the Dark Arts teachers. Which I might note is arguably still going on, since we've had nearly a shortstop a year since Nomar left town 10 years ago. it's why I don't whine that much about the Gagne trade even though that one did damage our chances by costing us both a young lefty depth starter who'd shown a lot of promise (before he ultimately took a very unfortunate elbow injury in Texas that completely ruined his mechanics and was never heard from again), and a nice utility outfielder, while outright weakening our bullpen for the stretch and into the playoffs. ultimately while it was a bad move it didn't kill us and neither did the Arroyo trade. It's the kind of unfortunate move that tends to speckle the records of every active GM from time to time. And nowhere near the kind of legendary disaster we need to be talking about a decade on.

Manny's career that PED allegations notwithstanding is probably gonna put him in the Hall, disagrees with you. For outfielders in particular, it very nearly is all about hitting the ball. Wily Mo's problem is that when you're so much of a space cadet defensively that you can't even hack it in the outfield, there's not much the team can do with you. Ahh yes, personal insults, exhibit A of the type of person who takes himself much too seriously, has invested a great deal too much emotion in his argument, and seriously needs to chill the hell out.

I'm ignoring those other numbers because they happened in the NL Central, not the AL East. His AL sample is as a pitcher who wasn't awful and made his daily bread on his durability. Other good recent examples include men like Jeremy Guthrie, Ryan Dempster, and Derek Lowe. The kind of guys you see somewhere between the 3 and 5 spots in a good rotation, but if he's starting the first or second game of your playoff series, your playoff run is going to be short. Arroyo was in no way, shape, form or means, a #2-3 starter for the Boston Red Sox. And if at any point he ever was, that would be a sign, in flashing red letters, that it was time to upgrade the rotation immediately if not sooner. ... and? It's not like we're the only team for which that is true. For the so-called worst moment of Theo's run, something that doesn't even hurt us particualrly badly is pretty weak sauce. And for the record, I'd definitely rate the Rent-a-wreck debacle as far worse for the Red Sox than the Arroyo trade without needing a lot of time to think it over. THAT one hurt. THAT was the one where we couldn't simply buy a replacement, because there's just not a good shortstop on the market every year. Corner outfielders come and go. And I'm sure that was part of Theo's risk assessment, along with an honest appraisal of Arroyo's actual value as a starter. Wily Mo was high risk high reward and he didn't pay out, but Arroyos aren't hard to find on the market if your scouting is good, and ours has been more hit than miss over the years. Nor is it unfair to mention that Theo did a decent job picking those replacements. Drew did fine for us, and Daisuke was excellent before what I'm still 100% convinced is a major shoulder injury that happened in the second half of the 2007 season that was covered up for much too long and as a result never healed properly. Daisuke went overnight from a guy who, sure, lived on the edge of the strike zone, but could paint and throw called strikes to keep hitters off balance -- from that, to a guy who was walking 4+ guys per nine. That to me reeks of injury. It was a bad trade. But why, 8 years later, is "a bad trade" such a focal point? There have been other bad trades. No sane person actually thinks that Bronson Arroyo actually puts up a WAR of nearly 7 if he stays in the American League east in 2006 do they? Do they? Because if he doesn't have that year, there is literally nothing separating Arroyo from Jeremy Guthrie. Heck as is Guthrie has an all but exactly identital career ERA+ at 103. Is Guthrie a 2-3? Because quite honestly given that most of Guthrie's experience is in the AL East in a hitter friendly park in Baltimore facing both us and NYY 19 times a year each and frequently with laughably bad defense behind him, I'd rate him just a tick higher than Arroyo personally.

Arroyo's WAR by year 2004: 2.7 2005: 2.5 Just exactly what are you talking about? Arroyo isn't an awful pitcher and I never claimed he was. He was a lower middle of the rotation guy, like a somewhat better version of Wakefield. For his career he's got a 104 ERA+ -- almost exactly average. He could go deep into the game but he was never going to be your ace. Very useful in the right situation, but here's the thing, RJ, we never really suffered for the lack of Bronson Arroyo. That's the point I was making. And yes, when you talk about "the worst trade GM X ever made," if that trade is squandering a midlevel rotation extender, it didn't cripple the franchise, and we won the World Series the next year, why exactly is this trade even memorable enough to bring up 8 years later?

That first year it looked like he might work out. He was very very good in 2006. Then he got benched because his defense became too much of a liability, and he never got the reps to work out the flaws in his plate approach after that.

Yes, because that's definitely all I did there. It's not like I didn't introduce a lot of vary salient points that break down the emotionalism of the trade and try to make a real discussion out of it.

Honest question: Do you really honestly think that Bronson Arroyo would have had the renaissance he had in Cincinatti, if he'd remained in the AL East? Personally, I do not. The AL East is just far, far more ridiculously hitter froendly than the National League central. He might have been a good bottom of the rotation guy, but honestly, is losing one of those anything wirth crying about for going on 8 years now????? Arroyo thrived in a more defensive league against inferior competition,and I'm glad for him, but I would not have wanted him taking big innings in boston at any point since he left. He's not an ace or a schlub, he's exactly the kind of half decent arm that comes and goes around the league, the Wily Mo trade was a bad move but not because we lost Arroyo -- more because all we got for Arroyo was Wily Mo, and either way, the deal was such a franchise-destroying disaster, we won the World Series the year after it went down. The only time to make that Arroyo argument was specifically 2006, and that was a lost year for more reasons than having Wily Mo rather than Arroyo. We were one of the best pitching staffs in the league in 07 and by 08 Jon lester had arrived to lead the staff, and at no point since 06 has our SP depth been so desperate we should be crying for a guy who'd be a 3-4 here at best, so it's really time to put the Arroyo revisionist history to bed.

Oh it's a factor alright -- a huge one, as it can be with all health related problems.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1128/bos_g_schilcrowd_576.jpg That man overcame a lot to carry the team to victory in 2004, and then came back one last time to help Beckett and Papi bear the load in 07. That's how you go out right.

They have the chips sure but have you looked around the league? 3B is a very old, undertalented position at the moment, only a few real top bats there anymore. Most of the teams that have talent there have little incentive to trade it. There's a reason we rolled out Iglesias there a lot last year when WMB wasn't up to it. We didn't lack trading chips then either -- Iglesias himself first and foremost, since perhaps the only thing harder to find than a good 3B is a really good shortstop. Having the flexibility to put X at third and start a competent starting caliber shortstop has to be attractive under the circumstances. Finding a backup SS or a backup 3B, either one, of any real quality is very hard at the moment.

lol

Sizemore has to beat Daniel Nava out for a spot. Carp is secure because we need him to back up first base, so Nava is the only outfielder who's vulnerable other than JBJ, who's absolutely making the roster unless he's as disaster. They decided that when they let Ellsbury walk. If healthy, Sizemore's superior versatility and all-around talent speak pretty loudly to my ears, and gives him a reasonable chance to compete with a guy who in the back of everyone's mind, came from nowhere to have one good year and may never have another. Besides, we need a backup outfielder who can play centerfield. Counting on Victorino to stay healthy all year so that he's available to back up center is a fool's gamble. Like as not he himself will spent plenty of time being replaced. Brian Roberts on the other hand? Pretty much has to dethrone Derek Jeter. Ryan's going nowhere, he starts at second if Jeter's playing short, and Roberts doesn't have the versatility to play backup.

I would give Drew 2/25 for Bogaerts to be the backup and then work bogaerts into the lineup heavily against LHP and in multiple positions, which he's good for.

More versatile? Check. Younger? Check. Cheaper? Check? Better? By no means whatsoever. Herrera doesn't hold a candle to Drew, and by not bringing Drew back if he's out there for a decent price, you're gambling on Middlebrooks and bogaerts, two unproven unknowns, to a level that I do not believe a perennial championship contender should be doing.

If they have Drew, NWIH Herrerra is on the team. Probably he'd be shoved down to AAA to wait for an injury.

Or perhaps he came onto the market at a bad time. baffles me that a SS who defended at a quite passable level and hit 50 XBH would have this much trouble finding a buyer.

Between Bogaerts, Middlebrooks and Drew, SS and 3B isn't likely to be an issue. The question in my mind is that if they can ever drag Pedroia off the field, who backs up at second, X or Drew.

A big part of it happened when the Yankees re-signed Derek Jeter. I don't think boras was counting on them fully recommitting themselves to a guy who looked ready to retire. And yes, Drew is a very good shortstop on both sides of the ball. I'm amazed no one is going for him. If we didn't have a top prospect in the wings we'd be all over keeping this guy.

Any time you can add talent to the team you do it. Drew is a well above average 2 way SS and those don't grow on trees. If the market isn't there for him this offseason it's the market's loss. Having a utility man absolutely should not stop this team from crowding the bench with starter caliber players if they can afford to do it. I like the idea of havin the deepest, most talented two way infield in baseball. As for blocking the yutes... it's not an argument that has no merit at all, but I think it gets overblown at times. If Middlebrooks and Bogaerts deserve to play they'll beat Drew for the job, and vice versa. Since Bogaerts can play third base well enough, and since Drew is a well above average as strictly a defensive SS, clearly better than Bogaerts, the question of whether Drew can switch positions should not come up among sane people. Bogaerts should be the man to rove if anyone does.

first FULL year then

No to Bay, he just wasn't the same after his first year here for some reason. We have plenty of starting caliber players, what we need is a defense guy who won't cost us too many outs. Ideally what I'd have loved to see is a Bill Hall type, or at least what Hall was for us.

Even Snider got on base at a high level in the minors. Not trying to compare the minors then to the minors now... oh hell, I'll go ahead, it's the same principle, he dominated lower levels and was up very young, younger than Brentz is now. He always had the talent to get there he just had to be pushed to make the proper adjustments. If a guy can't get it done in the minors, the way Snider did, that tells us something damning. If you haven't mastered the ability to hit well enough to do it consistently against guys who don't belong in the big leagues, what on earth makes people think they CAN master the ability to hit consistently against guys that do?

One does not treat a bad OBP as an inconvenience. Brentz's inability to do something useful at the plate more than 31% of the time is a serious problem. One that historically is hard for a baseball player to seriously improve at, and the one factor that tends to most drastically thwart the success of any power hitter who struggles with it.

So would Brentz be, unless he can show a heck of a lot more offensive consistency than we've seen from him lately.

\ which is terrifying And actually it might very well be Alex Hassan instead