seabeachfred

Sabermetrics can be a valuable tool if it doesn't become a total end in itself. I used to froth at the mouth with Francona's so-called match-ups which he used to the point of total irrelevancy, some of which went back to four or five years. Players and pitchers change in that amount of time and there is no reason to completely swallow the Beane method of not giving up outs, not stealing, little emphasis on defense. You do that with a low budget team like the A's. You don't do it to the Nth degree with a team like the Red Sox who have the money to procure better talent. As it is, that method the last three years cost us many games because we became too predictable, and as far as not giving up outs we were either first or second the last four years in hitting into double plays with our station-to-station mantra that both Epstein and Francona ran into the ground. We were simply too predictable and easy to defend. A balance between the two methods would work much better in my opinion and with Valentine that is how it will work, and for the betterment of the Red Sox I predict. BY THE WAY, I WANT TO WISH ALL OF YOU ON THIS BOARD A VERY HAPPY THANKSGIVING. ENJOY YOUR DAY TOMORROW ALONG WITH THE TURKEY AND FOOTBALL GAMES.

There is nothing wrong by being a saber manager UP TO A POINT. The problem is when it becomes an end all as it was with Epstein and his errand boy Francona. The fact that Theo met with Terry every damn day gave the impression, recently confirmed, that he had imput into the starting lineup and who should play. That will never happen with Valentine in control, and it shouldn't. The GM should stay in his office and out of the dugout. I think they can work together if they maintain their roles and know their places. First of all they have to stop the nonsense and give Bobby the job, and then, second, try to restore some of the prestige that Cherington lost when it became evident that he was little more than a glorified office boy. Thirdly, Cherington might start trying to overcome his proclivity to procrastinate and start getting some things done. If he is the GM he should at least try to take some intitiative. If he is thwarted in that endeavor he then should have the guts enough to resign. It would be nice if we all go to Thanksgiving Day Thursday knowing that the day before (tomorrow) Valentine has been given the manager's job and this charade has finally ended.

Let's stop for a moment right there Ron. Jenks is not going to work out. He was terrible this year for us, got injured and looked like he was trying to eat himself out of the bullpen. If he recovers it will be a miracle. Ozzie Guillen had this guy pegged right from what I've seen. As for Bard, he could turn into another Papelbon because we weren't sure what we were getting when he replaced Keith Foulke as closer at the start of the '06 season. If Bard doesn't work out then we are all in deep s***. For our sakes he has to make it work. That still leaves us three decent relievers short and by that I don't mean Morales, Bowden and Weiland. They proved how unreliable they were when given a chance last season. Yes, a bullpen is a crapshoot but you would think more emphasis would be placed upon it, something Epstein did not think was that important. Remember he was the guy who insisted that we could get by with a "closer by committee" back in 2003, and that miserable failure cost us the division title and home field advantage in the Playoffs. This time we have to get it right. We need more of the shoot and less of the crap this time around. We need middle relievers and a set-up man who can get the outs when we need them from the seventh inning on. Of course, it would help immensely if Beckett, Lester and Buchholz could pitch like a credible "Big Three" and this year go deeper in games.

User, are you still convinced that the Red Sox are moving along at a pace that's acceptable? I think you told me I should just relax and let things take their course and I wonder if you changed your mind hearing about Joe Nathan's $14.5 million two year contract with the Rangers? To me, if Nathan is getting that kind of money think of what the going rate for closers is going to be. Now if they are deciding to go with Bard, we should all know that he has never closed before and looked pretty bad the last month of the year, not to mention that he lost nine games for us when entrusted with a tie or a lead this past season. Even they annointed him the closer, where is the set-up man, where is the 7th inning reliever? And please don't tell me Morales, Weiland, Miller or Bowden fit the bill because you know as well as I do they none of them do. The price just climbed for quality relievers and if we don't start moving soon the prices will only keep climbing until all of them are gone. In the meantime our bungling leaders still cannot decide to our manager should be. Kuddos to you for your patience, but I have to tell you it is getting to be a concern for some of us here.

Hilarious now Forsyth but if the Red Sox are dumb enough to bring that relic back again the laugh will be on us. If Lucchino signs him up again the sacred cow mindset will still be with us and you know eventually Wakefield will be back in the rotation with the expected disastrous results. Take a hint Tim; your time is up. Beat it!!!!!!

It's on the other hand that worries me iortiz. Sure, I would rather wait until January or February to get better and healthier ballplayers than sign some in November and December and see we've signed a bunch of Theo-type turkeys, but the way the front office is bumbling around we could wait until later to sign players and still wind up with turkeys. The front office seems to be totally out to lunch right now. Letting Epstein go before compensation was agreed upon was a miserable mistake. Now Il Duce Lucchino is going hat in hand to Selig trying to coax a decent player from the Cubbies. Good luck on that. This manager search has turned into a Halloween charade. If Valentine isn't appointed skipper this week we will know that they are not only trying to replicate the Keystone Cops but starting their own rendition of Who's on First, substituting manager for the first baseman. Then as you said iortiz other teams are starting to sign players while we're in backpeddling mode. Everyone is entitled to take their own take on this but for those of us who are a little pissed off, well I think right at this moment we have a right to be. Some say wait but we've been waiting the better part of a month for something to evolve and so far ZILCH!!!!!! It's time for Henry and Co to get their s*** together.

No matter what you and 700 and others say, those who are fully in agreement with what the FO is doing simply will not listen. You know about that, right? We've dealt with those types before. Now they are entitled to their opinions and their beliefs in the "go slow methods" if they think that will net us success at the end. At least the people here to do that know the game and can hold their own with anyone, but it is puzzling that those people don't recognize that right now our team is in dysfunctional mode and the guys at the top can't seem to stop running into each other The managerial search has turned into a farce, the new GM has been totally emasculated and has become a joke on almost all Red Sox boards, and we still have not made one move to sign a pitcher, RH hitting outfielder, or the three relievers we will need. We said similar things two weeks ago and were told to wait, we said this one week ago and we were accused to jumping the gun. We are still sayig this and those who disagree with us still think all is fine, and when an in-the-know writer like Dan Shaunessy weighs in with some truthful comments that are critical he also gets criticized. The Red Sox simply collapsed and came apart in sections this past September. There has to be an urgency to start fixing things and all we're seeing is more broken examples of team rot. If Lucchino is in charge he needs to get his ass in gear and start making moves, like tomorrow.

You are right Ex1, Valentine is not a sure thing and he sure as hell isn't a long range answer for us for ten years, but for four or five I still insist he is exactly what we need. If you check Bobby's managerial record with Texas he started off like a house of fire when he took over in '85 and led them to a surprising second place finish in the then 6 team AL West Division. By '92 when he was canned he had worn out his welcome and had alientated a lot of players and FO personnel. With the Mets he took over in late '95 I believe and made the almost instant contenders but didn't hit the jackpot until 2000 when he led them to the NL Pennant. After that it was two years and out. Yes X1, he does wear out his welcome and might do it in Boston, but is there any question that a tougher course is needed after the past three seasons? Francona was a terrific clubhouse manager, kept the pressure off the players, kept the press off of the players backs, and handled the PR well in a city where it is tough as hell on managers of the Red Sox. Having said that, it became obvious to me that this wasn't working well the last three seasons and this season it all came apart. I think BV can restore the Red Sox to championship caliber and more than hold his own against the likes of Maddon, Showalter and Girardi.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Sounds very plausible Sox Sport and if it is as you say they should stop the charade and just hire Valentine and get it over with. Henry and Lucchino are making an extravaganza out of it and it is only holding other things up, especially if Cherington has really been reduced to non-factor in player procurement. Well nothing will happen this weekend but it would be swell if something pops before Thanksgiving next week, and to those who keep insisting that in 2003 Francona was hired until around December, they ought to keep in mind that the collapse of the team this season was a disaster for everyone, players, press, fans, front office, and so on. The FO has to start showing the fans that they are serious about righting the sinking ship and a lack of any action is not the way to go. In our favor is that very few teams have done anything either so we may all start from the same point when push comes to shove.

If Sveum would have been a continuation of the Francona approach then it is terrific that he didn't get the Red Sox job because in my opinion another FrancoMa type is the last thing the Red Sox need. His milk and cookies approach turned out to be toxic for the team this season and by now everyone is aware of what took place in the clubhouse during games. In fact I always believed Terry should have been replaced after the 2009 season when we collpased after the ASB, blew a three game lead we had at the time and struggled to get into the post season where the Angels dispatched us in three game. Valentine is exactly the type of manager we need because he would not only demand discipline, stress fundamentals and have the Red Sox ready to play by opening day, something FrancoMa miserably failed to do, our team would not be the staid and dull statio-to-station- game that Terry and Epstein liked. Teams would not have to just sit back and relax because Bobby wouldn't be hesitant in using the hit and run, steal more, run and hit, and emphasize a wider open game. Francona was also a pretty weak game manager, slow to pull a struggling pitcher, willing to go to great lengths not to bench someone who needed benching, and when you add that to his station-to-station mantra it makes for someone we don't want a replica of the next few seasons.

Sorry MVP, you came up boxcars on that. As far as I'm concerned Tek is not out of the picture until he is officially out of the picture. After his rotten 2008 season he did not receive one offer from any other team and talk was he'd played his last game as a Red Sox-----and what happened. He was signed by us for two more years, otherwise he'd have been out of baseball. After the 2010 season he was re-upped for another year. He is like the virus that just won't go away and this time I hope that the FO finally gets it right and invites him to try his luck elsewhere. Yes, I want Lavarnway in that lineup as quickly as time will permit. On the second point, I would be up in arms if someone else got Ortiz, yes I would, but it would be up in arms cheering. Youk is eventually going to have to DH with a year and by then I hope Ryan is ready to catch full time and Middlebrooks will be our new third baseman. With Ortiz around it causes a ripple effect of a traffic jam for positions that could hold both Middlebrooks and Lavarnway up and that must not happen.

Heck VA, if I had come up against your post earlier I wouldn't have had to answer MVP. You are right in that assessment. Because of the miserable 2011 collapse we have a lot of work to do and in my opinion some groundwork should have been laid out by now. We still don't have a manager, we no longer have a closer, we still need at least one decent starting pitcher, a RH hitting outfielder, not to mention two or three decent relievers. Here's hoping that in the Winter Meetings coming up early in December the brass can finally get with the program.

Si Senor, I'm the same guy, but didn't you read my opening sentence. To wit: THIS IS ONE TIME THE TEAM MUST MOVE SLOWLY. Comprende Amigo? There are always exceptions to any rule and this was one. For the record MVP, I still believe we are moving too glacially for my way of thinking but with Ortiz they must really have due dilegence with the guy. I simply believe Lavarnway must not be shuttled aside on the Pawtucket Shuttle as Youkilis was in 2004 and especially in 2005. I think the guy is ready to contribute in a big way for the next ten or twelve years.

700, let's just be succinct and say the Red Sox's good fortune is the Cubs' bad fortune and be done with it. After I listened to the tape of the Gresh and Zo show I'm convinced that Epstein was nothing more than a narcissict bastard who thought only of himself and threw the whole Red Sox organization under the bus.

The Red Sox should not jump into any quick deal with Ortiz. This is one time they need to move slowly. I just don't think there is that big a market for him since most teams are using regulars who are being rested as their DH's as the Rangers for example. The money we save with Ortiz coming off the books could be used for pitching, a RH hitting outfielder and some relievers. My fear is that since Cherington has been exposed as nothing more than a chump and flunky besides he might be inclined to try and make a splash and sign Ortiz to a new contract. We can replace his bat with improved years from Youk and a new RH hitter in Lavarnway. As much as I appreciate what Papi did for us over the years, it is time to understand that we have to move on. Sentiment does not win pennants, and we've seen with our nurturing of Wakefield and Varitek doing so only weakens the team.

A little difficult reading those articles when you live on the left coast Sox Sport, but I guess I could get some of those blurbs from Boston.com. The clues do seem to change every day from what I've read.

Well User, it is all guesswork on our parts along with a little gut feeling to go along with it. When you dispense strong opinions you always run the risk of looking a little foolish, but right now things are proceeding a bit slowly, don't you think? We need something to take hold of and the Red Sox's new manager is a topic just about all of us are interested in. If you have better ideas tell me about them. I'm all ears because I still don't really know what is going on in those Fenway Park offices.

Excellent point in your last paragraph SoxSport. Keep the sabermetrics in the FO and let it pick some of the players needed, that along with trying to judge the character of the players it desires, something that the computer and its spread sheets and printouts can't do-----and then hire a good manager with clout and then get the hell out of his way. Bobby Valentine would be an excellent choice and he was some of our first choices from the get-go until we were told he wasn't in the running. He may still not be as Cherington looks more incompetent by the hour.

You have to keep in mind that it is a little of role reversal this time out. Before Epstein had control of the situation which he won in the Gorilla Suit caper in late 2005 while Duce Lucchino was sent to the sidelines. He called the shots and Fetch FrancoMa became his running dog. This time around the CEO Duce is running the show and GM Cherington (and I use that title loosely) is the fetcher. It looks like we might have a real dud of a GM on our hands now. He looks about as dumb from this event as possible.