example1

There was no position for Theo to move into. That's kind of my point. There is speculation that LL might be done after next year, in which case Theo could have taken over at that time.

Seems like the fair middle ground.

Phew.. I was worried I had lost your blessing to do this! They matter because your argument was premised on the ownership group needing to get rid of Theo, actively purge him from the situation. I contend that this group would not be getting rid of him, but he was offered a better job for more money. The Sox wanted Theo as their GM, but they didn't want him as their president. The Cubs did. Hence the move. And made him GM/President while firing Lucchino? I don't think so.

The condecention about other people not understanding these very simple concepts like letting an executive go for under performance needs to stop. Your point--that sometimes a team that does poorly fires it's executive--is true. However it is certainly not always the case. One need look no further than Brian Cashmam to see someone who has endured disappointing seasons and been retained. I have been listening to as much sports radio and reading as many articles as I can find. This is a group of media that would gladly and quickly report something like the GM essentially being fired. Yet in this case that's not what they are saying. They acknowledge that this is a ruthless ownership group that smears players on their way out but they are saying almost universally that Theo is deciding to leave. There have even been reports that the ownership feels betrayed by it. With the current shitstorn I suspect they would much rather have Theo stick it out at least until his contract is up. Of course I can't confirm that just like you guys can't confirm the opposite. I just warn against confusing correlation with causation here until the facts all surface. The media and ownership are so far indicating that this is Theos choice. Just as you can point to industries where sometimes executives are released for underperformance I could point to instances where employees left for a significant promotion and raise, particularly as their company is falling apart. It isn't wishful thinking. If the story were as clear as you guys initially indicated it would be widely reported as the Sox pushing Theo out. At most it is a mutual parting and I haven't seen confirmation that the sox wanted him gone--no matter how much some fans want him gone. More details are certain to emerge but this isn't a simple instance of a company replacing an underperforming executive. They are replacing him with his own clone.

This is a pretty simplistic analysis. Just to add a little bit of balance. Fangraphs values players based on the going cost of a "win" in the free agent market for each individual year. In interviews Theo has noted that the Sox use a very similar valuation tool to choose the value of their players. Remember, the Sox have made a profit so they must be getting that money/value from somewhere... Anyway, my fairly simplistic value of home-grown players since 2003. I found the WAR and value from Fangraphs, and the salary composites from Baseball-Reference. Feel free to do it better if you want to spend the time: [Table] Name | WAR | $-Value | Cost | Profit Pedroia | 25.7 | 111.7 | 12.087 | 99.613 | Lester | 22.7 | 96.3 | 11.305 | 84.995 | Ellsbury | 17.3 | 77 | 3.751 | 73.249 | Youkilis | 18.9 | 68.9 | 31.97 | 36.93 | Papelbon | 15.1 | 61.9 | 29.136 | 32.764 | Buchholz | 7.8 | 32.5 | 1.394 | 31.106 | Bard | 4.2 | 17.4 | 0.902 | 16.498 | Lowrie | 3.5 | 15.5 | 1.298 | 14.202 | Masterson | 2.1 | 9.6 | 0.415 | 9.185 | Reddick | 1.8 | 7.8 | 0.8 | 7 | Kalish | 0.6 | 2.2 | 0.4 | 1.8 | TOTAL | 119.7 | 500.8 | 93.458 | 407.342 | [/TABLE] When people say that home grown players are very valuable, they aren't kdding. Combine the above profits with the constant seat sales (sellout record) and two WS titles and it quickly becomes obvious why Theo wasn't shown the door as soon as the ownership agreed with his first poor FA signing.

I still find it laughable to pretend that Theo was pushed out, as if he wouldn't still be around if the Cubs position weren't open. I haven't seen a report that backs that up. So far, it is "Theo offered 20m for promotion" and "Theo deciding whether or not to go", not "Red Sox secretly fire Theo". Nobody says he's perfect, but he isn't being fired and the Sox aren't cleaning with him leaving. He's being replaced by his clone, for christsakes.

You're going to hear it a lot more. The team scored enough runs and prevented enough runs to win 93 games or so. It's not a bad team. It's an unlikeable team, it's a team with s***** chemistry, but they are more than talented enough to be the best team in the AL. This is obvious, whether you want to hear it or not. The challenge will be whether they can move forward (sideways?) replacing significant players and retain the same caliber of team. I'm optimistic that they can.

My only advice is to not jump off a cliff yet. The ownership has deep pockets and I suspect this offseason will impact the fans and, ultimately, the bottom line. After next year there should be 3 prospects ready to take full time spots: Middlebrooks, Iglesias, Kalish. I know people will freak out, but these guys will be ready. Iglesias may be all glove, but he will be very young and all glove at SS isn't horrible. Kalish would have been in RF last year, and Middlebrooks looks to be a very servicable 3B. Those three assume they don't sign someone better, which they very well might. Also, Ellsbury will be in Arb3 in 2013. He has two years left. If they trade him they will get something great back, but he's not leaving. Having an open spot in the rotation isn't a bad thing... as long as there's money. Matt Cain would be a reasonable sign (FA after 2012). There's plenty of options and it is still a desirable club, as long as they get the s*** out of there.

Dude, I assume anyone (including myself) is joking about that/wishful thinking. Your team just got eliminated. Your pitching staff sucks. Your two highest paid players sucked when it mattered most. Go clean your own s***.

Do you have the same comparison in value per-MLB caliber draft pick? Any idea the value of Lester, Pedroia, Buchholz, Ellsbury etc., in FA dollars? If he sucked in both areas the ownership would have fired him years ago. He didn't, so they didn't. Finding All Star minor league talent is exponentially more valuable than FA acumin.

http://www.csnne.com/10/12/11/Giardi-Sox-clubhouse-became-a-poison-cen/landing_redsox.html?blockID=576214&feedID=3352 This article is a bit uplifting re: Crawford and Gonzalez

That's an impressive list. As a list. I'm not sure what to make of the results, other than that I had forgotten about a number of those deals.

1) We've missed you here. Hope you're doing alright. 2) You're right. 3) It is going to make the minor curfuffle between Youkilis and Ellsbury look like a minor faux-pas.

I can't blame him at all for leaving. I never thought I would say it, but the Cubs are apparently a more functional club than the Sox.

I don't think you move Ellsbury, but I wouldn't hesitate to move guys like Beckett and/or Lester. I don't know enough about the underlying situation but I'm worried that some of this is stuff you can't get back. A leader is always a leader; once Beckett has taken a giant s*** on this team I think he's going to be unable to lead, which removes a good portion of his value. I'm hopeful that guys who apparently were, at best, disappointingly neutral throughout this whole thing--including Youkilis, Ortiz, Gonzalez, Ellsbury--can still retain some portion of dignity and leadership potential. Imagine being Eric Bedard walking into this absolute shitstorm. No matter he looked like a deer in headlights... he's like "I can't believe what I'm seeing".

Who ISNT gone? Pedroia, Gonzalez. Ells can fit in a clubhouse that is normal.

Here's my question: with ownerships concern that scheduling the doubleheader literally pushed the players over the edge, is there any way to see this other than the sox had players who essentially threw the season? Disgruntled players aren't enough to explain epic collapse. This was play of a historically bad nature. Like some players said "we will show you... Go f*** yourself ownership."

If this post is the first thing you're reading this morning, go read the article cited in the "The Collapse" thread. It explains the collapse in epic detail and is the context of the following post. First of all, I'm pissed off. Talk about wasting resources. This team had the talent to win the World Series. That article clearly reinforced that to me. At the same time, the absolute waste of money in terms of character is alarming. So, what if we think about the off-season this way: Rather than rebuilding the talent of the team--which most off-seasons are focused on--they need to rebuild the character of the team. The talent is there, the leadership isn't. Don't misconstrue the term "leadership" with "ownership" or "management", I mean leadership, as in being a leader, holding high standards for performance, attitude and demeanor. Leading by example. The humble co-worker who shows up early and stays late because it's the right thing to do, not because it leads to a raise or a promotion. Until now, I had been thinking about the off-season as an opportunity to get a new manager who somewhat carries on Francona's approach, but with a different person. Now, after the curtain has apparently been lifted, I think they need someone completely different. They don't have a choice: they are stuck with the players they have. Just like 2004 was about getting the most out of that particular group of players (Manny, Ortiz, Nomar, Pedro), 2012 will be about getting the most out of this group of players. MANAGER: For a manager they need someone who won't take s*** from anyone. Earlier, Jim Rice's name was brought up. I'm not sure I would go in that direction, but someone who says basically "this is my clubhouse, do it my way or I'll sit your ass and embarass you in front of your friends and family" is a good starting point. I don't know if they need a good players manager in the sense of someone who aligns with players. A good employee will align himself with management. GENERAL MANAGER: This really is a secondary concern right now. Ben Cherrington can do the job just fine. The manager will be the crucial hire of the off-season. Billy Beane wouldn't take s*** from people and is decisive and innovative. He'd be up there on my list too. CLUBHOUSE ADDITIONS: A stronger coaching staff. Obviously. Don't replace Magadan if possible. The offense wasn't the problem. Otherwise, even good folks like Demarlo Hale will probably have to go. Curt Young too. He might be the best X's and O's pitching coach the team has had, but the timing was apparently poor for his personality. PLAYER ADDITIONS: This whole boondoggle makes me look at the needs of the team differently. They need a particular type of player. They need someone who is secure enough to not have to 'fit in'. The more I think about it, the less I think either a marquee FA or a scrappy prospect could change that culture. It's those middle guys who have grown up having to fight and scrap to get appreciation in this game who might be most useful. Interesting options (including some marquee guys, obviously): * Heath Bell: Outspoken, aggressive, experienced. Papelbon may leave anyway, but even if he doesn't making the bullpen the 'heartbeat of the team' might not hurt. * CC Sabathia (very unlikely, too expensive, etc.,): Larger than life, mature, seems very focused on his own and his team's success above all else. Experienced. * Roy Oswalt: This guy is a veteran and a gamer. His age is on the downward trajectory, as is his stuff, but I get the sense that he's a quite leader and someone that Lackey, Lester and Beckett would have to respect. Might not cost too much. * Michael Cuddyer: Scrappy guy, has good seasons and decent seasons. A bit of a dirt-dog. Won't take s*** for granted. * Josh Willingham: RH OF, don't know enough about his personality, but he's a veteran who won't cost a ton and might bring some clubhouse presence. * CJ WIlson--Obviously the biggest name (aside from CC) on the pitching side of FA this year. Supposed to have a good work ethic and doesn't seem to take things for granted. Not sure if adding another marque guy is ideal, but worth investigating. Who are other players that the team might target--through trade--to improve the chemistry of this club? * Shin Soo-Choo: Don't know much about him in the clubhouse, but he's another grinder and a RF who is coming off a down year but is very young. I have read he comes with a very strong work ethic and should be entering his prime. High cost, but the Guardians did quite well without him for much of the year this year. Enough prospects and the Guardians are often game to talk (especially after dumping so many for Ubaldo). * Matt Cain: he's been mentioned a bunch here. I still think he could be a really good solidifying force and is young enough to have value for a long time. * Matt Garza: If Theo's going to Chicago and they're not moving Castro, try to work out something for Garza. Sadly, Theo won't be a great trading partner moving forwad... * Johan Santana: Any chance of a salary trade and one last shot at a healthy Santana? Seems like he would be a guy who wouldnt' automatically clique with the other douchebags, and who might actually set a good example. Sorry for the rambling post. I'm just convinced that this is more a lesson in setting the right clubhouse culture than it is about jettisoning players who are still owed lots of money. They need the right manager and coaches first, and then they need the right combination of players to set a really high standard for day-to-day behaviors. The players that come in with that role need to know that's their role from the beginning and get plenty of leeway from management to make it happen. Varitek was essentially ineffective at doing that this year apparently.

Our only hope, as fans? Embarassment. Like Theo said in the presser, the only silver-lining of such a collapse is that you can't ignore what happened. If Lester and Beckett and Lackey figured that they could slack off, not train, and drink during games because the team would make the playoffs, their gamble came to a horriffic end. Embarassment. Hopefully these guys have enough pride to be embarassed by their names being put in print. My predictions: 1. Theo is gone. Ownership is indifferent to that. They don't see it as his fault, but Cherrington can replace him just fine in their view. That makes Theo happy, ownership wants to rebuild (a700 is right). 2. This piece is largely from ownership. Henry looks petty and out of touch with $300 headphones, but it's an endearing thought to think of him inviting the team out on his yacht... as if that would work. It's at least generous. 3. Embarassment is the name of the day. Ownership has every right to embarass guys like Lackey and Beckett until the cows come home. They are two veteran leaders who are supposed to do more.

This piece has smear risk written all over it. I mean, the stuff about Francona's usage is speculative and not something I would want to label him with. The piece squarely sets its sites on the players and represents their behavior--especially the behavior of their starting pitchers--as a significant outlier. A parallell outlier? How about the biggest collapse in history? Those kind of match. The Sox SPs in September had a 7 something ERA, right? The offense stayed the same, but the starters sucked. What could possibly deflate 3 former All-Star's motivation so quickly. It's like 3 10th graders in HIgh School who suddenly discover pot and want to just play video games, drink and eat fried food all the time.

I suspect someone will come out and say this is a "smear job" but I tend to like these authors, and think that this report is truly unflattering for all involved. Theo is more or less untouched, except for spending all that f***ing money on Crawford. The owners look like desperate fools who tried to motivate selfish jerks. I think the saddest thing is thinking about Jon Lester--a supposed warrior--falling into bad habits. I hope this isn't true, but he sure as hell looked like he wasn't capable of getting through 7 in the most important games of the season. He looked like me out there!

It's like 6 pages long and its probably not proper. Other topics: Francona maybe had a prescription pill problem. Beckett, Lester and Lackey liked to eat fried chicken, drink beer and play video games while the team was out there playing. Ellsbury didn't do much leading, maybe resenting guys like Youkilis but mostly being a loner. Adrian Gonzalez isn't a leader either. A good player, yes, but not a leader. ... there may be more... I can't remember at this point.