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I guess we can agree to disagree. I DO agree about the 4.00 ERA, at least that he'll pitch like a 4.00 ERA pitcher would. That doesn't mean he'll end up with that ERA (cause that's a function more of luck and usage than pitching skill) but I get your point. I don't think I contradicted myself at all though. Papelbon and Delcarmen have been in the sox system because its the sox system. Papelbon especially wasn't going to get called up because of the pitchers he had ahead of him and the team that was ahead of him. This year is a different story. I guarentee that Papelbon would have been called up to the Yanks at this point, or just about any other team. He would likely have started at least a handful of games in his 22nd, 23rd and 24th years for most clubs. Hansen is a closer/reliever. The sox need that now, desperately, and there is no reason that they shouldn't use the best they have. If hansen is that guy then they'll use him. If not then they won't. And about expectations. Boston always has high expectations and always will. I don't think people need to lower expectations, but just to try to be realistic about them. We should expect the best possible players on our team, period. If it doesn't happen then we should be fair and accept that someone isn't where we thought they should be and move on. Hansen will get a lot of chances with this club, high expectations or not.

Me too. Not only that, but I don't really care about Calvin Scheraldi or any other examples. Fact of the matter is that many, many pitchers have had success at Hansen's age. And while its a big jump to go from AA to MLB, I imagine its just as big a jump to go from NCAA to AA in sucha short period. That's not saying its guarenteed to work, but what's the harm in trying? Delcarmen has done pretty well. Papelbon has done pretty well and from what i've heard, Hansen has the best stuff of all of them.

Great points all. I wasn't doubting the utility of the minor leagues... obviously they are a necessary part of the process. I was just thinking that it ought to take a college player LESS time in the minors than a hs player and that a player who is having obvious success in the minors (as we hope to see hansen do) could be valuable on an MLB club. If hansen is, say, the equivalent of John Wettland in a few years (hopefully better), then hopefully there is no harm in leaving him down there. However, in the playoffs we want that talent on the roster. If he's better than, say, Remlinger, then I just think he should be pitching on the big club even if he's a little unpolished. I think the work that Delcarmen is getting is great. All that aside though, I will always and continually defer to the genius that is Theo Epstein. I don't know anything more than he does.

Maybe its just Clemens and Sosa. That would be enough for me, it would cover "big" names and it wouldn't bother me too much. I had a poster of Roger growing up, and I don't think that he used during his first 10 years or so, but the resurgance is a little bit weird. He always had a great work ethic though, so I suppose its unfair to think he did steroids. Who else could "bring you to your knees?" Varitek would be absolutely devistating. So would Manny. Vlad would be surprising, but devistating as well. I'm just trying to think of AL mega stars who would be hard for MLB to deal with having taken steroids... Manny, Schilling (Oh, please NO), Vlad, Ortiz, ARod, Mariano Rivera, Jeter (THAT would be horrible), Sheffield (already suspect), Sosa (wouldn't be too much of a shock), Tejada, Beltre, Sexton, Pudge, Frank Thomas (because it would immediately bring the entire 90's into question), Johan Santana??? I think any of those guys would be a horrible mark on baseball. Are there others who I'm forgetting that might fit into that list? Renteria, Ichiro, Matsui, I guess. I hope NONE of the above listed players falls into that category, but I'm afraid that if its a "mega star" its gonna have to be one of those players. YIKES!!

Yeah, it kicks ass. Its too bad we have to go through all this rebuilding to make sure that our good prospects can develop correctly!

oh yeah, and Tek is NOT fat. That guy is a beast.

Everyone is neglecting to mention a certain RF who beefed up substantially over the past few years (see pictures from 98-99) and who is extremely injury prone. I love the guy, he's one of my favorite Sox, but I can't help but wonder... I think we'd be naive to think that NOBODY on the Sox has EVER taken steroids (didn't we have Canseco for awhile there???). This is a plague and a cancer to our game, but one that makes a lot of sense. These guys will do anything to get that little extra edge (or, more accurately they would have done anything when it wasn't specifically illegal). Sorry to spoil anyone's pristine picture of sox baseball, but I'd say we're lucky to get out of the steroid scandal without any sox being implicated. That aside, we'll be lucky if Manny Ortiz Nomar and Pedro all come away clean.

I guess one thing I don't understand is all this "rushing him to the bigs" stuff. I understand not wanting him to be completely out of his element, but isn't one of the arguments about drafting college players that they have already had a substantial period of growing in college? I mean, there are a lot of major leaguers who find success at ages 20,21,22 after having been in the minors for a few years. It seems that the whole point of getting college guys is that they can join MLB more quickly. Am I totally wrong on this? I mean, if a team can draft a 19 year old and have him playing by 22-23, OR they can draft a college kid and have him pitching by the time he's 24-25-26, then isn't that really just wasting time? I think Hansen should be ready soon. I think Papelbon should be ready soon. I understand coddling these guys a little bit IF they are really the future of the sox, but if they're good enough to be the future of the sox then they could certainly be given a shot when we're currently looking at guys like Jeremi Gonzalez from the pen.

Delcarmen didn't pitch as bad as it looked though. He had a hard time after Cora's error at 3rd. The defense has looked really shaky this series, but they at least got a win. Olerud would likely have had at least one or two of Mueller/Cora's throws.

Delcarmen needs a slider. His curveball is just a rolling beachball out there. His fastball is great, but a slider would be a nice groudball inducing addition.

I suppose 4 young starters would be good too, but good closers don't just grow on trees. I agree that we shouldn't fix something that isn't broken, especially watching Papelbon being used in relief now too. If he's going to be a starter then keep him starting, unless he's going to be a reliever this year (hopefully he will be).

It wasn't totally his fault, but Sheffield grounded to him and the ball took a bad hop, allowing the Yanks to tie the game in the 10th. It should have been the last out.

Goddamn Cabrera!

Let's go one-two-three-four Curt (four being the Yankees getting that last out in NY)

Agreed, although I do feel a desperate need to win this year. I want a dynasty, but I hope that this years team will be a down year compared to last year and (hopefully) compared to years to come. I think a guarenteed way to grant success to our young pitchers is... having Manny and Ortiz in the middle of your lineup. You just can't replace those numbers. We're talking about the guy who has hit in the #3 spot in the ALL START TEAM the last few years for crying out loud. We can surround him with lots of Muellers, Nixon's, Tek's and Damon's, but those guys are much more available than Manny's. Even without making ANY trades right now we stand an excellent chance of winning again. Especially if Foulke is able to come back and pitch effectively. That would make a world of difference.

Last year's trade of Nomar to the cubs, involving the Twins and Expos was three buyers and a seller. There are good deals to be had.

Unless you trade with another buyer or have something that the seller really wants.

I am feeling really really reluctant about giving up any of our good pitching prospects right now. I don't know why, but I don't feel like we need to give up much this year. Other teams are basically holding the sox for ransom because we have some very specific needs (good hitting outfielder, relief pitcher, maybe Starting Pitcher). But in a few years we may be kicking ourselves for going out to get someone like Heilman, who, as far as I can tell, is a mediocre prospect at best, or Cameron who has had year after year to prove that he's a star and continually does not get to that level. We currently have a tremendous team, no need to make any huge changes. Think about it this way: a year ago we were very close to trading Manny for Alex Rodriguez. Now, after he has become a WS MVP, spent a year of his contract value (something like 18 million), won a WS, and continued to put up HUGE numbers, we are talking on here (9 pages worth) about trading him for Huff, Cameron and Heilman. You've got to be kidding me. I don't think Theo could have ever been really consisdering this seriously. Also, the dude who said that "the money is agreed upon its just the players that need to be ironed out" is missing the fact that the money would ALWAYS have to have been agreed upon in this deal. The Sox want to get rid of manny without paying ANY of his contract and I don't imagine they would sit down with any teams unless that were unnegotiable.

No, I don't really like that trade either. I don't care about Lugo's SB's and I'm not convinced he'll be as good as renteria when all is said and done. I totally agree that we should screw the mets though. What's next, are we going to trade them Ortiz and Damon for Piazza and Kaz matsui? How about Schilling and Tek for Piazza and Zambrano. Let's just give them the world series. All kidding aside, I think that if we're going to trade Manny we should trade him to an obscure middle market team in the NL... maybe Colorado or Arizona. Have fun Manny... you still miss your privacy??

Benson Looper and Cameron? Come on. I don't want ANY of those 3. Benson is a middle of the road pitcher; he's a suppan. The sox are NOT in bad shape this year at all. They're in first place. We don't need to start bailing water out of the boat yet. Schill and Wells speak for TEAMS, regardless of which one they play for. its just not cool to DEMAND a trade and refuse to play. I don't care who you are, its just weak and selfish.

Damon will be resigned if Manny goes, guarenteed. That money would easily be allocated for resigning Damon along with resigning Ortiz in the future and hopefully picking up another pitcher. I don't think Manny will be traded and I think that all of Manny's grumpiness will pass when the trade deadling does.

Do you know why he's so against Boston? Is it the press? The fans? If its the press I say fire Dan Shaugnassey and let's move on. If that's all it takes. Its probably not though.

There is no WAY this is happening. Huff and Cameron have lifetime OBP's in the .340 range. I just don't see it making any sense for what the sox need. If we also got Baez then I could see it, I guess, as an attempt to make THIS team as good as possible. But I don't see Cameron being that good anyway. I think its all a diversion.

This is absurd. I agree that if we were to trade manny, I would want a top tier pitcher, a very good hitting outfielder and 2 top prospects. Theo isn't going to let the Mets get Baez and Manny.. Manny is way too good to be traded, and way too expensive. The above idea of not being able to get a top prospect is probably accurate. However, Theo COULD turn a Manny trade into a world series and I think he could turn it into a WS this year, and a good contending team into the future. I don't doubt that. He could put the pieces together in the right way, but a lot of people would miss Manny. The dude is just good; especially with Ortiz. Theo could also turn getting rid of Manny into a few really good free agent signings in the future and an open spot for minor leaguers to come up.

Yeah, ya know, if Manny wants to get privacy, I would NOT recommend going to New York. How about Manny finish up his contract and then go spend his last few years in Texas or Tampa or Toronto, and just have a quiet final few years. I hate to hear these guys talk about their need for privacy all the time. I'm sure that's what they want more than anything, but I know very little about Manny's private life. He's not A-Rod or Bonds or Ichiro or one of the ridiculously popular players. He's very popular but, much like Pedro, he has been pretty good about keeping his private life private. In fact, I think a lot of the Sox do a good job of that. Pedro, for instance, was an extremely private person. Finally, Theo isn't going to give up Manny for something really good. BIGPAPI349's list approximates the kind of package I would ask for Manny; but that package is completely unrealistic. ANY package of that caliber is unrealistic because it is also unrealistic to imagine any team giving up someone as good as Manny. Its not quite to the same degree, but it would be like giving up Bonds or Pujols. Manny is 100 RBI 30HR without even batting an eye--even in a bad season. You can't pay enough for that kind of player. I can't imagine this coming to fruition. Like the article says, this is the 3rd time in 4 years that Manny has asked to be traded and he still seems happy on the field. it might just always be a thing for Manny.