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This has been posted about a million times. People should probably just assume that if a story is more than 12 hours old, it has been posted and re-posted, discussed, digested, spat upon and redigested. I don't really care if we post it a million times, but it could save people some time.

Only a stupid GM will raise his bid for a players services based on the willingness of a stupid team to over spend on someone like Furcal. The same was true for Pedro. He wanted money close to manny's contract and the sox FO HATED that contract, probably because it made every other player want absurd amounts of money.

Yeah, but One Red Seat, with the money they saved they might be able to acquire someone like Andruw Jones or Barry Zito next year in FA. Peee yweeeewww What are they thinking, letting Johnny Damon go? geez

Why should the sox let another desperate stupid team dictate how much they will pay their own players? Why should Johnny damon get one cent more than Jason Varitek if the sox feel like Varitek is as important a two-way player (decent hitter, decent fielder) as they have on the team? They did it right, lets move on here... Damon is a Yankee, Theo isn't a Red Sox, there's not much we can do about it at this point.

Ya know what impresses me? How about Pedroia: Best Average Best discipline Best Inf Defense. This guy really has the potential to be something special. As does Ellsbury who was drafted AHEAD of Hansen--which should say something about his skill set: fastest, best athlete and best defensive OF.

It sounds like Papi helped convince him to stay, and that he was happy with the Sox efforts to trade him. Perhaps he saw offers like Manny + Clement for Tejada and said "Hey, I'm worth more than that!". In any case, I got the distinct impression that he initially wanted to leave because of his wife, for whatever reason--his wife, his girlfriend, whatever. The lack of a good trade makes him say to his wife "Sorry hun, I guess I gotta stay in Boston with Ortiz". There always was that disconnect: he appeared to be having a great time playing ball in LF, urinating in the monster, pointing to everyone within 2 miles, smiling all the time, and then demanding trades. It just didn't make sense. If he was doing it for someone else then it makes a lot more sense. Manny saying he wasn't coming back to spring training could have been his way of telling his wife what she wanted to hear; the sox saying they were trying to trade him could have been the same type of thing on their end. What concerns me is that the FO could still be trying to trade him. This would be one of those rollercoaster rides that the Sox put us on: manny wants to stay and suddenly he's shipped when everyone is rejoicing that he's coming back. Of course, now that he says he'll come back they shouldn't do it for anything less than Tejada PLUS a good prospect or two. The tables have turned indeed and I will sleep peacefully tonight, thinking of balls soaring over the coke bottle in LF all night... ahhh

Say what you will, but I feel a lot better knowing that he wants to stay in Boston. Give us a good defensive CF and a good defensive SS and we'll be as good as we were last year, with a better pitching staff. Manny being manny? Maybe. I'm fine with it. Now end discussions with Baltimore, unless they're willing to give us Tejada for someone not named Manny Ramirez.

Good, I'm glad talks have stalled when Baltimore gets bigger than they actually are. To be honest, at this point I don't think Manny can doubt that the sox tried to trade him. Let's just keep manny unless someone comes along with something better. Screw Baltimore. They are trying to keep the sox busy dealing with this Miggy s*** to weaken our chances of getting someone good. Cora can play SS. I don't want to spend 5 mill to get gonzalez, especially if it lasts more than a year. Find a CF somewhere. If that's not possible then play Adam Stern. At this point I would rather keep all of our young players, get them a lot of time this year and retool (as LL so nicely put it) for the following 7 years. Marte could get time, Pedroia could get time, Lester could get time, Stern/Murhpy/Moss/Ellsbury can get time. Mostly, I'm sick of logging on and looking everywhere for word about movement in the O's talks. Nothing is happening and it is just getting repeatitive.

All that sounds okay, so far I don't like Snow starting 4 out of 5 days. Youkilis deserves the starting slot, RHP/LHP be damned. This lineup won't win too many games, but it will do for one year. Stern isn't making it if we have Wilson. We don't need them both and we need Cora and Graff more. Why not bring up Lester if Dinardo is going to start? That would solve our LHP in the bullpen and get the better pitcher on the mound more often. Looks about right. Hansen may start out in AA/AAA but he will be there eventually. While it is okay to not have a lefty, it is unadvisable. I can't think of the sox teams you are referring to (since the only ones that have really "Proved" anything are the 04 team, perhaps 03). Maybe you're right though. Again, if we're using dinardo, I'm just for using Lester. Stern makes the team, and either Graff or Cora aren't there, and Marte is in AAA or dealt? That doesn't make sense to me. Keep Marte, utilize both Cora and Graff as SS platoon/late inning replacements. I think all the work they did this offseason thus far has tried to address this problem. Timlin may be getting older but he's a horse, Seanez hopefully will stay healthy, Mota could find form, and Foulke... well, we'll have to see about him. I agree, questionable bullpen. I like Nixon leadoff too, in theory. however, this will be the slowest team in the history of baseball. Who is their fastest starter? Loretta? Reed? We won't be scoring unless we hit a double with a man on 2b or get our guys to third. that concerns me. Yeah, they'll probably win 85-90 games and miss the playoffs, but with the potential to do much much better the following year with some aggressive FA signings, some trades and the continued improvement of our youngsters (Marte, Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia, etc.,)

This makes just no sense. I mean, we've talked about it before, over and over again on this site, but man! this just shouldn't happen. Lugo isn't even young. Unless he's part of a trade for Tejada (even then it wouldn't be a good deal) I can't wrap my brain around it. Perhaps the sox aren't as confident in marte as they initially were??..??

Yeah, I don't know why this thread wasn't just titled "Can Marte Play LF?" Because that would be the easiest place for him to play. Let's not get this wrong: Nixon is an excellent RF in boston. He knows the field very well, hits for good power, and covers pretty good ground for someone with as many injuries as he has had. He is also a dirtdog and would run through a wall for the sox. he's as hard nosed as Varitek, which is something that is not only good for the team but makes other teams envious. In any case, Marte in LF, Matos in CF, Nixon in RF, with Lowell, Tejada, Loretta and Youkilis in the infield with Tek and Ortiz would be a decent lineup. Slower than death itself, but decent: Youkilis Loretta Tejada Ortiz Tek Lowell Nixon Marte Matos?? That gives us 9 guys who all have potential pop. 9 guys who can't run and who are somewhat lumbering. good lineup though. I would prefer the prospect over matos of course, but that may be dreaming.

I was initially torn about this deal myself. Not because I woultn't want Tejada though, but because I hoped something could be worked out to keep Manny. The more I think about it though, and the more I watch the FO work to deal Manny, the more I am convinced that Manny just isn't coming back. The FO wants him to leave, he wants to leave. Given that, the best deal I could imagine is for one of the top players in the game. A guy with considerable power. A guy who is a great fielder. A guy who is a good leader and former MVP who just happens to play a position that the sox need. This is a guy the sox could lock up for a few years, a guy who wants to play in Boston and who wants to tag-team with Ortiz... something that manny--for whatever reason--doesn't want to do. CF is an important position and will be another important acquisition. However, SS is more important. The sox have not had a locked up SS for the past 3-4 years and it has been an increasing headache. According to most metrics Tejada is as valuable as Manny. His defense obviously makes the difference. I just didn't understand why ksushi dismissed it as something the sox just didn't need to do. It seems like something they do need to do if it is possible.

Its not worth it. Your argument must be a strong one if your not willing to articulate it when someone asks you to do it. I'm pretty sure Tejada has a better Range Factor and OPS than John Henry, he's younger and has a better arm. I think he also has the same qualities over Cora (at least offensively) and is a good guy to have on your team. If you're not going to respond to my initial question, I can at least ask you what you would propose to do about Manny wanting to leave... what would you do if you ran this team and truly believed that Manny might not come to ST?

Sorry man. I appreciate your picture of Trey and most of what you have to say. I'm not sure what you were insulted by, but sorry. I'm still waiting, though, for you to explain why we shouldn't get Tejada if we have the opportunity. Anything else I should appologize for. If so, sorry bud. EDIT: add quote

When I get to what age? Do you know how many children I have, how old I am, how many graduate degrees I have or what my life is like? I don't think so. Thanks for the life-lesson though, I'll put it in my pocket and pull it out once I've matured enough to think at your level. "You should not be allowed to boo." enough said. Agreed. I'm pretty sure you were the one that said "Would you still be willing to pay the highest prices in the league to watch a team of the future?" as if that is a bad thing. Its not a bad thing and it goes very nicely with you rooting for the UNIFORM. I would pay to see the Red Sox, whether they are Johnny damon or Jacoby Ellsbury. You are implying that it is only worth taking money off your kids plate if you're paying to see the yankees, not a rebuilding team. I think baseball is worth seeing live in a place like fenway or yankee stadium because its baseball qua baseball. The essence of the game is what matters, not necessarily who is playing. All that aside (I'm done arguing with you about whether or not it is worth it to root for/care about a team that is "rebuilding"): Trot is only 31. He plays like he is 33 and is injured as often as someone who is 35. Still, I think he's a very good defensive RF, making tremendous plays on nearly any ball he can get to. . He might not get to as many balls as other players do, but the ones he gets to he plays very well. Decent arm too. Marte should play LF if necessary.

I don't remember you explaining why they don't need tejada ksushi. Go ahead. I ask you to do so under the following assumptions: a) Manny MIGHT not come back next year of his own choosing (emphasis on the might) If manny leaves there is nobody who can adequately replace his offense c) the red sox need a SS. explain away:

Honestly, ksushi, would you take anything not from the mouth of Lucchino or the GMs as gospel given everything you've heard? Unless you have some prior knowledge about the sources who were speaking on the O's board I will go with the opinions of people who seem to know what those sources were talking about... however vague it may be.

Members on SoSH were indicating that the sources were being percieved by other members as pretty reliable, usually a little ahead of the game. I tend to think that it might take a little while for a deal like this to be made public. Manny, Clement and 10 million would probably get the deal done.

I think that if the sox are giving Marte to TB they should get Milledge from NYM. That would fill some holes (LF and CF) with good young players. It would give TB something they could use (3B ) and the sox could afford to spend something they don't need (3B ). I like Marte, but mostly because he's a top prospect, not because of any attachment I have for him or because of his potential power. I think Milledge could be very good.

So you would be willing to trade Manny, Clement and Renteria (plus one year of Renteria's salary) for Gathright and Tejada?

come. on. guys. How many times do we have to do this?

To be fair, Brandon Moss hit .236 .291 (OBP) .389 (SLG) .680 (OPS) in AZ. Should we write him off? I don't think so. THe yankees farm system sucks because they traded all their good players. Hence, they have an outfield of Matsui, Sheffield, Damon along with players like Alex Rodriguez, Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, Mike Mussina etc., I know they didn't get mos tof those guys through trades, but the point is that they are clearly ABLE to play without a great farm system because they will overpay over and over again. That's just the way it is. If they wanted a great farm system they could have one. Also, its not like their farm teams are finishing dead last in their respective leagues. Die hard sox fan here, but I just think the sox-yankees farm system debate is kind of pointless. What matters is who wins on the field. If the sox win in a few years, more power to them.

Yeah, especially when they trade him to the Marlins for Cabrera (eta 2008), along with the rest of their best young players.

Well, according to the article that you replied to, it would be Joey Gathright who, in everyone's opinion, is the next Willie Mays The sox should get someone else in the deal. Tejada is as valuable as Manny according to VORP/WARP etc., but Gathright is likely nowhere near Marte. I could see Shoppach for Gathright, or even Shoppach and Abe Alvarez, but Tampa turned down a deal for Marte already so they can just suck it.

If the sox had the opportunity for EITHER Prior or Zambrano they should take it or at least strongly consider it. . I just checked and I had no idea Zambrano is only 24. That raises his value a bit in my book. Zambrano is more of a horse. He seems like a Bartolo Colon type--a guy who can pitch and pitch and pitch. For all of Prior's injuries, he has still thrown more innings overall and in any particular season than has Josh Beckett. I know his injuries are more serious (elbow or shoulder, I believe) but still, its worth noting.