Who you want gone, 2009 Edition

[Thumper]

Simple. Who from the Sox roster would you like to see gone, and soon.

 

For me.

 

1. Javier Lopez

- He can die in a ditch for all I care. He isn't helping s***, and his butter fingers cost us a potential 12 game winning streak, which could be at 13 by now it weren't for him f***ing up. Hunter Jones is so much better anyway.

 

2. Brad Penny

- Waste of space, not performing as we had initially hoped he would. When Matsuzaka returns I'd like to see Penny gone, perhaps a rotation of Beckett, Matsuzaka, Lester, Masterson/Smoltz, Wakefield.

[TheKilo]

Mark Kotsay

[Cocos Disciples]

I forgot Kotsay was even under contract.

 

Definitely Lopez, not Penny yet.

[Jasonbay44]

Javier Lopez and maybe Penny, Id like to see a little more of Penny.

[BoSox21]

Hunter Jones is so much better anyway.

 

after what? 4 innings?

[riverside sluggers]

Couple weeks ago I heard that the Sox were scouting Milwaukee lefty specialist Mitch Stetter. Don't have a link. Sox will give Lopez a long leash, he is of course one of Tito's favorites. It took them until July to cut the likes of Alan Embree/Rudy Seanez

 

With little over a month ahead, Penny needs to get himself in a groove if he doesnt want to lose his rotation spot to Smoltz

[das11209]

#1 - Terry Francona - Once he is gone - everything else will streamline.

[Dojji]

You are insane. Tito has his flaws, but they're peanuts compared to the kind of idiots you see around the league. For an example, just consider who he replaced.

 

Terry Francona is the best manager we've had since 1917.

[das11209]

You are insane. Tito has his flaws, but they're peanuts compared to the kind of idiots you see around the league. For an example, just consider who he replaced.

 

Terry Francona is the best manager we've had since 1917.

 

I guess you never met JayHawk Bill - he will tell you all about Tito.

 

I have not watched the Sox since 1917 - but if he is the best we had - we must have had the shittiest managers.

 

Please tell me where you would rank Tito with today's ML managers.

[Dipre]

I guess you never met JayHawk Bill - he will tell you all about Tito.

 

I have not watched the Sox since 1917 - but if he is the best we had - we must have had the shittiest managers.

 

Please tell me where you would rank Tito with today's ML managers.

 

I can name you 10 managers who are WORSE than Francoma just off the top of my dome.

 

 

Joe Girardi- New York Yankees: No explanation needed.

 

Ozzie Guillen-Chicago White Sox: Hurts his players' confidence, and his big mouth brings bad rap to his team.

 

Ron Washington-Texas Rangers: Bullpen management is suspect, does not play his lineup according to the other teams' weaknesses even having the offensive strength to do so.

 

Ken Macha-Brewers: He overmanages, rarely has the players' back, and can run a bullpen to the ground if not given enough depth.

 

Dusty Baker-Cincinnati Reds: Master of destroying young pitchers' arms, refuses to acknowledge the superiority of some youngsters over some past-their-prime veterans hurting his teams in the process.

 

Lou Piniella- Chicago Cubs: His stubornnes against change as well as the constant airing of his frustrations leads to an always tense clubhouse and the loss of a lot of W's in the W-L column.

 

 

John Russell-Pirates: Not given much to work with, but his lack of leadership is easily identifiable by the lack of inspitrational figures inside the team, and he has a slow hook and sucks at bullpen management.

 

Don Wakamatsu-Mariners: Still unproven, but has early during his tenure a quick hook on his SPs and bullpen overmanagement issues, that can hurt pitchers' confidence in the long run.

 

Bud Black- San Diego Padres: Can certainly manage a bullpen with little to no talent, but his lack of dynamism while making his lineup and putting things in motion on the rare occasions that this offense (anyone not named Gonzales or Giles) gets on base hurts his team, this is a stagnant offense, he needs to play small ball, and he doesn't do it nearly with enough frequency.

 

Dave Trembley- Baltimore Orioles: He has a really slow hook, and that bullpen is decent, he lets his team lose many a game by leaving the starter just an inning more than he should, and that is a fatal flaw for a manager.

 

So guess what, Francona is not nearly as bad as a lot of people say, actually, he's quite good, he may be a little too faithful in some of his players sometimes, but a lot of the time, that pays off, just ask Dustin Pedroia and Kevin Youkilis, and they'll tell you that Francona's faith in their abilities is one of the main reasons that they are currently MVP candidates.

[redsoxrules]

Josh Beckett LOL

[CrespoBlows]

Thumper

[Soxfan1]

Thumper

 

I don't think he's even been signed yet. They're still scouting his ass in Nawlins.

[jacksonianmarch]

Boneytek for sox captain!

[das11209]

I can name you 10 managers who are WORSE than Francoma just off the top of my dome.

 

 

Joe Girardi- New York Yankees: No explanation needed.

 

Ozzie Guillen-Chicago White Sox: Hurts his players' confidence, and his big mouth brings bad rap to his team.

 

Ron Washington-Texas Rangers: Bullpen management is suspect, does not play his lineup according to the other teams' weaknesses even having the offensive strength to do so.

 

Ken Macha-Brewers: He overmanages, rarely has the players' back, and can run a bullpen to the ground if not given enough depth.

 

Dusty Baker-Cincinnati Reds: Master of destroying young pitchers' arms, refuses to acknowledge the superiority of some youngsters over some past-their-prime veterans hurting his teams in the process.

 

Lou Piniella- Chicago Cubs: His stubornnes against change as well as the constant airing of his frustrations leads to an always tense clubhouse and the loss of a lot of W's in the W-L column.

 

 

John Russell-Pirates: Not given much to work with, but his lack of leadership is easily identifiable by the lack of inspitrational figures inside the team, and he has a slow hook and sucks at bullpen management.

 

Don Wakamatsu-Mariners: Still unproven, but has early during his tenure a quick hook on his SPs and bullpen overmanagement issues, that can hurt pitchers' confidence in the long run.

 

Bud Black- San Diego Padres: Can certainly manage a bullpen with little to no talent, but his lack of dynamism while making his lineup and putting things in motion on the rare occasions that this offense (anyone not named Gonzales or Giles) gets on base hurts his team, this is a stagnant offense, he needs to play small ball, and he doesn't do it nearly with enough frequency.

 

Dave Trembley- Baltimore Orioles: He has a really slow hook, and that bullpen is decent, he lets his team lose many a game by leaving the starter just an inning more than he should, and that is a fatal flaw for a manager.

 

So guess what, Francona is not nearly as bad as a lot of people say, actually, he's quite good, he may be a little too faithful in some of his players sometimes, but a lot of the time, that pays off, just ask Dustin Pedroia and Kevin Youkilis, and they'll tell you that Francona's faith in their abilities is one of the main reasons that they are currently MVP candidates.

 

If Francona is better than just 10 - then he is not even close to top 10. Don't you need a top 10 manager to win it all?

 

Also - I am not sure Tito is better than Macha or Piniella. Macha has done some nice things at Oakland with next to nothing resources. Piniella's firey attitude could be perceived as positive or negative - I personally like him though.

 

Just my opinion though.

[Dojji]

If Francona is better than just 10 - then he is not even close to top 10. Don't you need a top 10 manager to win it all?

 

You missed the part where he said "off the top of my dome" didn't you? These are just the guys he's clearly better than.

 

Also - I am not sure Tito is better than Macha or Piniella. Macha has done some nice things at Oakland with next to nothing resources. Piniella's firey attitude could be perceived as positive or negative - I personally like him though.

 

Pineilla maybe. Macha spent last year as a NESN analyst. Until any evidence shows up to the contrary, a manager with a job is better than a manager without a job. Also Macha's got Fielder, Gallardo and Braun and is still somehow managing to lose more games than he wins.

[Dipre]

If Francona is better than just 10 - then he is not even close to top 10. Don't you need a top 10 manager to win it all?

 

Also - I am not sure Tito is better than Macha or Piniella. Macha has done some nice things at Oakland with next to nothing resources. Piniella's firey attitude could be perceived as positive or negative - I personally like him though.

 

Just my opinion though.

 

You're being a douche.

 

A) You don't need a top 10 manager to win it all, as evidenced by the 2005 White Sox or the WS appearance by the 2007 Colorado Rockies.

 

B ) As Doiji stated, those were simply 10 managers i could name right there without giving it too much thought.

 

C) Terry Francona is a very good manager, he's not at LaRussa or Cox levels, but he's certainly in the upper 3rd of the league, so if you wanna fire the guy just after he took this team one win away from the WS, and after a winning record in April even though the SP has sucked and the wounded mount like Vietnam, then suit yourself, but you're definitely not looking smart by suggesting it.

[das11209]

You're being a douche.

 

A) You don't need a top 10 manager to win it all, as evidenced by the 2005 White Sox or the WS appearance by the 2007 Colorado Rockies.

 

B ) As Doiji stated, those were simply 10 managers i could name right there without giving it too much thought.

 

C) Terry Francona is a very good manager, he's not at LaRussa or Cox levels, but he's certainly in the upper 3rd of the league, so if you wanna fire the guy just after he took this team one win away from the WS, and after a winning record in April even though the SP has sucked and the wounded mount like Vietnam, then suit yourself, but you're definitely not looking smart by suggesting it.

 

Not getting into pissing contest with you. And I am not the only one suggesting RedSox needs a new manager.

 

Now - I understand the point that teams have appeared or won WS with bad managers. So the question is does Manager's matter at all at ML level? I think that they do matter in close games. Also manager's can contribute negatively more than positively. If you have a bad manager - chances are he will contribute to a loss.

[BoSox21]

And I am not the only one suggesting RedSox needs a new manager.

 

I reeeeally hate when people resort to stuff like this when arguing something.

 

And you have yet to give any sort of reasoning behind why you think Francona is a bad manager, other than "he isn't one of the 10 best manager in baseball".

[Dipre]

I reeeeally hate when people resort to stuff like this when arguing something.

 

And you have yet to give any sort of reasoning behind why you think Francona is a bad manager, other than "he isn't one of the 10 best manager in baseball".

 

I think you could make a much better argument as to why Francona is in the upper echelon of managers as to why he isn't, but maybe that's just me.

[BoSox21]

the only criticism I have of Francona is that he can tend to be a little too loyal to guys he's familiar with, regardless of effectiveness. But I'm not sure I'd take any other manager in baseball for this team.

[Dipre]

the only criticism I have of Francona is that he can tend to be a little too loyal to guys he's familiar with' date=' regardless of effectiveness. But I'm not sure I'd take any other manager in baseball for this team.[/quote']

 

But remember, sometimes that "blind loyalty" so many of us complain so much about pays off, otherwise, Pedroia might've been benched for Alex f***ing Cora, Youk would be AAA fodder, and the bargain that is Tim Wakefield wouldn't be around, also, the resurgence of Ellsbury and DelCarmen have all come to fruition because of his loyalty, however, we'll always get the Javier Lopezes of the world.

[BoSox21]

It's not the young guys he sticks with I'm talking about cause it's obvious they all go through growing pains as they adjust to the majors. I'm talking about the veterans who clearly have nothing left in the tank, like Mike Timlin last season.

[das11209]

It's not the young guys he sticks with I'm talking about cause it's obvious they all go through growing pains as they adjust to the majors. I'm talking about the veterans who clearly have nothing left in the tank' date=' like Mike Timlin last season.[/quote']

Belhorne of 2005 says hi.

 

Anyway - it is good that we are talking objectively about Tito instead of bashing him. He is also supposed to be managing veteran's ego nicely. I think he is way overrated here.

[BoSox21]

He is also supposed to be managing veteran's ego nicely. I think he is way overrated here.

 

Really? How many veterans are there are on this team that cause problems in the clubhouse? Seems to me he's pretty good at explaining to Jason Bay and Mike Lowell why they bat 6th and 7th respectively regularly.

 

And as far as Mark Bellhorn goes, he was dropped to the bottom of the lineup and he was worth waiting to see if he could turn it around, he was a good OBP who was supposed to be in the prime of his career.

[Dipre]

Really? How many veterans are there are on this team that cause problems in the clubhouse? Seems to me he's pretty good at explaining to Jason Bay and Mike Lowell why they bat 6th and 7th respectively regularly.

 

And as far as Mark Bellhorn goes, he was dropped to the bottom of the lineup and he was worth waiting to see if he could turn it around, he was a good OBP who was supposed to be in the prime of his career.

 

And he was also kept in the lineup because the Sox really didn't have a better choice to play 2B at the time.

[jacksonianmarch]

At least wait until the shine is off the 2007 world series visit before you throw your manager under the bus. Listen, every team will outgrow their manager mainly because older managers and especially those that have won, get set in their ways and fail to adapt. Torre was the victim of that. But Tito is what he is. He is a players manager. The guys love him. He also is loyal to a fault. And he is a pretty poor bullpen manager and is a really poor strategist. But so was Torre. Part of being a manager is being able to get out of your team's way, and he does that well. His loyalty also allows for selected young guys to get longer leashes than they should get (like Youkilis as a 1b and through Pedroia's first 2 months of his career). Once the talent level dips and a strategist is needed, then Tito wont be the right fit. Until then, enjoy the ride. He is the best manager to team fit the sox have ever had. Dont forget that.

[Cocos Disciples]

At least wait until the shine is off the 2007 world series visit before you throw your manager under the bus. Listen' date=' every team will outgrow their manager mainly because older managers and especially those that have won, get set in their ways and fail to adapt. Torre was the victim of that. But Tito is what he is. He is a players manager. The guys love him. He also is loyal to a fault. And he is a pretty poor bullpen manager and is a really poor strategist. But so was Torre. Part of being a manager is being able to get out of your team's way, and he does that well. His loyalty also allows for selected young guys to get longer leashes than they should get (like Youkilis as a 1b and through Pedroia's first 2 months of his career). Once the talent level dips and a strategist is needed, then Tito wont be the right fit. Until then, enjoy the ride. He is the best manager to team fit the sox have ever had. Dont forget that.[/quote']

 

...

[CrespoBlows]

Francona's use of his bullpen has been horrendous in past seasons.

[Cocos Disciples]

He really has. Hell, you can see that on Monday with Lopez in the 9th.