6/29 vs. Astros

[MANNYHOF24]

Terry Francona chose to put him into the game. He didn't ask for it; he had to pitch to earn his paycheck. :dunno:

 

***

 

Notably, Pitch f/x "malfunctioned" on Lugo's at bat where he got a called strike in a location that Nauert had been calling balls all day.

 

As an aside, I showed O'Nora as the scheduled umpire--it was changed at game time, I guess. O'Nora umpired at first base two days in a row...that almost never happens.

 

Moments like this make me speculate regarding the integrity of some individuals in MLB.

 

***

 

Game. Astros win. Boston gets two runs from 15 baserunners. Brandon Moss demonstrates, again, that he can't pinch hit. Okajima lets another inherited baserunner score (he's 12-15 in that regard this year). Terry Francona tallies it up to bad luck.

 

We need a emoticon.

 

 

 

Right, but in a tie game in the 8th do you go to your only other option Papelbon? I don't think so. Everyone else was burned out, this is what happens when two of your starters have short starts back to back. I don't buy stats for managers, I mean say anything you want but, could this team have had anymore sucsess over the last 5 years? Probably not.

[MANNYHOF24]

Nobody can replace Red Sox Nation's image of Big Papi. It is possible to replace the actual contribution of Big Papi's bat.

 

David Ortiz was batting .252/.354/.486 for 2008 when he was injured. The MLE of Carter's 2008 AAA stats is .272/.326/.495. That's not quite there, but it's pretty darn close, and Carter did nothing in his three PA with Boston to suggest that he'll have any trouble with MLB pitching.

 

Are you serious? Ortiz had been on fire since hitting .074 in the first three weeks. To say that Carter, an unknown rookie, could have a bigger impact is baseless and quite frankly kind of ridiculous. I'm pretty sure that Ortiz had been hitting .321 since that time and was probably OPS'ing close to 1.00. I mean do you really think Chris Carter is even close to a healthy David Ortiz?

[Jayhawk Bill]

I don't buy stats for managers' date=' [/quote']

 

OK, your bias is recorded...

 

I mean say anything you want but, could this team have had anymore sucsess over the last 5 years? Probably not.

 

...and displayed.

 

Last five years:

 

2003: Hell, Yes

2004: No

2005: Hell, Yes

2006: GM/injury failure, IMO

2007: No

 

In 2003 it was Grady Little displaying how a manager could screw up, but in 2005 it was Terry Francona who led the Red Sox, defending World Champions, to a humiliating ALCS three-game defeat.

 

But back to the issue with Okajima...Okajima had a 6.23 ERA the last two months of 2007, after MLB figured him out. He started OK in 2008, but he then blew three consecutive saves starting April 22. He's posted a 4.00 ERA since then; worse, he's allowed a .798 OPS. His June ERA is 10.38. (All stats not counting today.)

 

Better options than Okajima? Right now, possibly any other pitcher in the bullpen...and Okajima still LEADS the team in the criticality of his moments of use, measured by Leverage Index.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Are you serious? Ortiz had been on fire since hitting .074 in the first three weeks. To say that Carter' date=' an unknown rookie, could have a bigger impact is baseless and quite frankly kind of ridiculous. I'm pretty sure that Ortiz had been hitting .321 since that time and was probably OPS'ing close to 1.00. I mean do you really think Chris Carter is even close to a healthy David Ortiz?[/quote']

 

I think that Chris Carter is close to a 2008 David Ortiz, which is what I said. The 2008 stats were what I posted. The month of April counted this season.

 

I also wrote that neither Carter nor anybody else could replace the perception of Big Papi in the mind of RSN. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

[MANNYHOF24]

OK, your bias is recorded...

 

 

 

...and displayed.

 

Last five years:

 

2003: Hell, Yes

2004: No

2005: Hell, Yes

2006: GM/injury failure, IMO

2007: No

 

In 2003 it was Grady Little displaying how a manager could screw up, but in 2005 it was Terry Francona who led the Red Sox, defending World Champions, to a humiliating ALCS three-game defeat.

 

But back to the issue with Okajima...Okajima had a 6.23 ERA the last two months of 2007, after MLB figured him out. He started OK in 2008, but he then blew three consecutive saves starting April 22. He's posted a 4.00 ERA since then; worse, he's allowed a .798 OPS. His June ERA is 10.38. (All stats not counting today.)

 

Better options than Okajima? Right now, possibly any other pitcher in the bullpen...and Okajima still LEADS the team in the criticality of his moments of use, measured by Leverage Index.

 

 

In 2005 our pitching staff just wasnt that good. I mean our ace that season was a 41 year old David Wells and Matt Clement. How can you argue that year was Francona's fault. That team was not built to win in October, at all. It also doesnt help the fact that the bullpen was burned out due to our starters consistanly not getting deep into games. We lost that series because our pitching sucked, it had nothing to do with Francona. The 5th year I was talking about was this year, which obviously remains to be seen.

[MANNYHOF24]

I think that Chris Carter is close to a 2008 David Ortiz, which is what I said. The 2008 stats were what I posted. The month of April counted this season.

 

I also wrote that neither Carter nor anybody else could replace the perception of Big Papi in the mind of RSN. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

 

Baseball slumps happen, the fact of the matter is that Ortiz was hitting like Ortiz after his early slump.

 

Want some Stats

 

Ortiz in May, .325 .409 .617 along with 8 homers and 22 runs batted in. Do you really think April is an indication of how Ortiz will perform for the rest of the season? I think his track record shows that we will see more of the may ortiz rather than the april Ortiz. I mean say you had a s***** hitter who was a career .200 hundred hitter than hit .300 in april, but then .200 in may. Do you think based on his april performance that he will be a .250 hitter for the rest of the season? I think not.

[MANNYHOF24]

OK, your bias is recorded...

 

 

 

Better options than Okajima? Right now, possibly any other pitcher in the bullpen...and Okajima still LEADS the team in the criticality of his moments of use, measured by Leverage Index.

 

I understand your thinking, but pitchers have bad months. You can't just abandon them for the rest of the season. We are going to need Okajima down the stretch. Jima was rested (relative to the rest of the bulpen) since he had the night off on sunday. I think that maybe he should have started the inning. I will agree that was a mistake, possibly i might have left Adrsma face another hitter.

[Jayhawk Bill]

In 2005 our pitching staff just wasnt that good. I mean our ace that season was a 41 year old David Wells and Matt Clement. How can you argue that year was Francona's fault. That team was not built to win in October' date=' at all. It also doesnt help the fact that the bullpen was burned out due to our starters consistanly not getting deep into games. We lost that series because our pitching sucked, it had nothing to do with Francona. The 5th year I was talking about was this year, which obviously remains to be seen.[/quote']

 

Argue? Nah. I can certainly list a few mistakes by Terry Francona in managing his 2005 team. Let's go for 20:

 

1) Using the sessile Kevin Millar as his starting first baseman despite his hitting only nine home runs all season.

 

2) Refusing to start Roberto Petagine, who hit .327/.452/.635 at AAA that season before hitting .348/.423/.565 as a starter for Boston.

 

3) Playing Mark Bellhorn (.216/.328/.360) at second base instead of moving Mueller to second base and playing Kevin Youkilis (.278/.400/.405) at third base. Tito cited concern for Mueller's knees, but Mueller was in his contract year anyway and he did perfectly adequately in 29 games at second base while part of the Red Sox--he was still able to play second base.

 

4) Playing Edgar Renteria in 153 games despite serious back strain when he had Alex Cora available on the bench most of the year (and Hanley Ramirez on the 40-man if the FO DLed Renteria after he was benched). Renteria's hitting was a disappointment, but his defense was an abomination, costing the Red Sox around 20 runs.

 

5) Starting Kelly Shoppach against only the very toughest opposing pitchers (just Bartolo Colon in his Cy Young season and Mike Mussina) in his MLB cup of coffee, causing Shoppach to lose confidence and rust on the bench while Tek got overworked.

 

6) Being unable to handle Jay Payton in the clubhouse. Jay Payton might not be the easiest player to handle, but Boston had to trade him away for nothing (well, Payton PLUS CASH for an injured Chad Bradford) because Francona couldn't handle him. Payton is still active in 2008, having spent a year and a half with both the A's and the Orioles since then, and other managers and he seem to get along adequately.

 

7) Destroying Cla Meredith as an asset to the Red Sox. Instead of using Meredith in low-leverage situations in the first game of a doubleheader for his first MLB appearance, Terry Francona did EXACTLY AS HE SAID HE'D DO IN THE PRE-GAME INTERVIEW and used Cla Meredith in the second game, with the wind blowing out to right field, bases loaded, and Richie Sexson at the plate. Meredith allowed a 315-foot home run around the Pesky Pole, his confidence was shot, and he became a throw-in in the Bard-for-Mirabelli deal before blooming and flourishing in San Diego. Francona's idiotic lack of flexibility cost Boston a prospect.

 

8) Starting Craig Hansen, who had posted a 0.00 ERA in MiLB until meeting Tito in MLB, on three years of suckitude by whatever he did to him in his four MLB games.

 

9) Using Curt Schilling three times as a starter in April, FOR AN AVERAGE 106 PITCHES PER GAME, when anybody could see, even on TV, that Schilling was too badly injured to pitch. He aggravated his 2004 injury and was lost for most of the season.

 

10) Being unable to use Alan Embree or Mike Remlinger effectively, both of whom looked completely washed up pitching for Tito and both of whom still had successful MLB years ahead of them.

 

11) Being unable to see, through use of either a radar gun, scouting reports, pitch tracking cameras, or the horrendously dismal stats, that Keith Foulke was no longer an MLB-caliber closer and keeping him in the closer role for half of a season.

 

12) Being unable to realize that Jonathan Papelbon was his best relief pitcher and giving him no save opportunities.

 

13) Pitching Matt Clement injured, allowing the "lack of character" rumors to persist through his silence, and destroying Clement's arm and career.

 

14) Leaving Bronson Arroyo in for about three batters too many in almost every game, concealing the All Star potential Arroyo displayed with the Reds the next season.

 

15) Not using Mike Myers as a LOOGY.

 

16) Not using Chad Bradford as a ROOGY.

 

17) Having a near-riot with Manny at the trade deadline, again calling into question his ability to manage players.

 

18) Starting Matt Clement in the ALCS despite obvious injury.

 

19) Starting the no-longer-hot-but-still-bad-fielding Tony Graffanino in Game Two of the ALCS with pitch-to-contact David Wells on the mound, and having Graffanino cost Boston the game with two consecutive bad plays at second base.

 

20) With Bradford, Myers, and Papelbon all available in the bullpen, leaving Tim Wakefield, who had clearly lost his ability to place pitches as demonstrated in his work to Dye, in the game to allow Konerko the game-winning home run.

 

Hey, you asked.

[MANNYHOF24]

Argue? Nah. I can certainly list a few mistakes by Terry Francona in managing his 2005 team. Let's go for 20:

 

1) Using the sessile Kevin Millar as his starting first baseman despite his hitting only nine home runs all season.

 

2) Refusing to start Roberto Petagine, who hit .327/.452/.635 at AAA that season before hitting .348/.423/.565 as a starter for Boston.

 

3) Playing Mark Bellhorn (.216/.328/.360) at second base instead of moving Mueller to second base and playing Kevin Youkilis (.278/.400/.405) at third base. Tito cited concern for Mueller's knees, but Mueller was in his contract year anyway and he did perfectly adequately in 29 games at second base while part of the Red Sox--he was still able to play second base.

 

4) Playing Edgar Renteria in 153 games despite serious back strain when he had Alex Cora available on the bench most of the year (and Hanley Ramirez on the 40-man if the FO DLed Renteria after he was benched). Renteria's hitting was a disappointment, but his defense was an abomination, costing the Red Sox around 20 runs.

 

5) Starting Kelly Shoppach against only the very toughest opposing pitchers (just Bartolo Colon in his Cy Young season and Mike Mussina) in his MLB cup of coffee, causing Shoppach to lose confidence and rust on the bench while Tek got overworked.

 

6) Being unable to handle Jay Payton in the clubhouse. Jay Payton might not be the easiest player to handle, but Boston had to trade him away for nothing (well, Payton PLUS CASH for an injured Chad Bradford) because Francona couldn't handle him. Payton is still active in 2008, having spent a year and a half with both the A's and the Orioles since then, and other managers and he seem to get along adequately.

 

7) Destroying Cla Meredith as an asset to the Red Sox. Instead of using Meredith in low-leverage situations in the first game of a doubleheader for his first MLB appearance, Terry Francona did EXACTLY AS HE SAID HE'D DO IN THE PRE-GAME INTERVIEW and used Cla Meredith in the second game, with the wind blowing out to right field, bases loaded, and Richie Sexson at the plate. Meredith allowed a 315-foot home run around the Pesky Pole, his confidence was shot, and he became a throw-in in the Bard-for-Mirabelli deal before blooming and flourishing in San Diego. Francona's idiotic lack of flexibility cost Boston a prospect.

 

8) Starting Craig Hansen, who had posted a 0.00 ERA in MiLB until meeting Tito in MLB, on three years of suckitude by whatever he did to him in his four MLB games.

 

9) Using Curt Schilling three times as a starter in April, FOR AN AVERAGE 106 PITCHES PER GAME, when anybody could see, even on TV, that Schilling was too badly injured to pitch. He aggravated his 2004 injury and was lost for most of the season.

 

10) Being unable to use Alan Embree or Mike Remlinger effectively, both of whom looked completely washed up pitching for Tito and both of whom still had successful MLB years ahead of them.

 

11) Being unable to see, through use of either a radar gun, scouting reports, pitch tracking cameras, or the horrendously dismal stats, that Keith Foulke was no longer an MLB-caliber closer and keeping him in the closer role for half of a season.

 

12) Being unable to realize that Jonathan Papelbon was his best relief pitcher and giving him no save opportunities.

 

13) Pitching Matt Clement injured, allowing the "lack of character" rumors to persist through his silence, and destroying Clement's arm and career.

 

14) Leaving Bronson Arroyo in for about three batters too many in almost every game, concealing the All Star potential Arroyo displayed with the Reds the next season.

 

15) Not using Mike Myers as a LOOGY.

 

16) Not using Chad Bradford as a ROOGY.

 

17) Having a near-riot with Manny at the trade deadline, again calling into question his ability to manage players.

 

18) Starting Matt Clement in the ALCS despite obvious injury.

 

19) Starting the no-longer-hot-but-still-bad-fielding Tony Graffanino in Game Two of the ALCS with pitch-to-contact David Wells on the mound, and having Graffanino cost Boston the game with two consecutive bad plays at second base.

 

20) With Bradford, Myers, and Papelbon all available in the bullpen, leaving Tim Wakefield, who had clearly lost his ability to place pitches as demonstrated in his work to Dye, in the game to allow Konerko the game-winning home run.

 

Hey, you asked.

 

ok, i'll try to refute some of these, the ones I don't I agree with you on.

 

1. I pretty much agree with you on this one, however the only thing I will say is look at 2004, when Millar started slow but then picked it up big time in the second half. I think that was justifyable for awhile but he should have not gotten any playing time after August. Samething with Belhorn, I mean come'on these guys were huge contributers for the first championship run, he wasn't just going to abbandon them after a slow first month. I think with Belhorn he was pretty much burried by mid-june anyways.

 

2. Embree was not tito's fault. He pitched like s*** all year even after the Red Sox realsed him in late July. I don't think it's tito's fault when a pitcher doesn't pitch well, I mean its not like he wasnt putting him in the same situations he was sucessful in during the previous year. As for Remlinger, his success came in the much weaker national leauge after his short stint with the sox.

 

3. As for Renteria, there was no indiacation that the FO and tito knew exactly how hurt he was. I think that was purely Edgar's fault for not letting the Red Sox know he was hurt as bad as he probably was. As for Hanely, know one knew he was going to be as good as he was. He was a struggling minor league hitter in AA at that time. Hindsight is always 20-20.

 

4. Shoppach? Seriously, it's not as if the FO lost faith in him because he had two bad games. At the time he wasn't in the Sox plans to play alot. That's not Tito, that is on Theo for not giving hime more of an extended stay at the big leauge level.

 

5. As for Cla Merideth, if he can't handle giving up one homerun then do you really think he could have ever thrived here? Plus if you look at his stats, he is getting worse ever year in a big way. I think if he was allowed to stay in Boston after that for more than a few apperances, he would have been fine. That was another Theo not giving him more time with the club.

 

6. Hansen is not Tito's fault. I would blame more the Boston pitching coaching staff for tinkering him mechanics, as well as Theo for bringing him up way to soon. Explain logically how this is Franconas fault? I would love to hear this one.

 

7. Completely agree on Schilling, but I split the blame 75% francona, 25% Schilling for not being honest.

 

8. Foulke-Timlin-Papelbon

If you really remember september 2005 as well as I do, then you remember how huge it was for papelbon to come in and pitch 2-3 innings. I think the way our pitching was that year it he was more vaulable in that capacity. Timlin did a decent job as closer, but he wouldnt have had a chance to save games if paps hadn't pitched so brillantly in middle/late relief. Foulke should have been pulled by mid-may, no earlier no late IMO. The fact that he was still the closer until the end of June was a mistake. But he was an established all-star closer that deserved a chance to work himself out a little bit.

 

9. Bronson Arroyo does not have all-star stuff. The only reason he pitched well in the first half of 2006, was because the NL hitters hadnt seen anyone like him. Look how he has done the last two years.

 

10. Am I missing something, was it known Clement had an arm injury late in 2005? I thought that wasnt discovered well into 2006. Im pretty sure, I may be wrong.

 

11. Who else would have played secondbase? He was the secondbase men that Theo had given him, so he played him. I think it's as simple as that.

 

12. Finally about Manny. I have been the biggest Manny supporter here I think. But do you remember what happened that led to this? Manny refused to play on a scheduled off day, even after injuries the previous night to Damon, or Nixon I can't remember. I don't think Tito was even the one who got into it with Manny the most. I think it was Schilling, but even still Manny was WAY out of line there and deserved to have had anything happen to him that did. Also to say that Tito was the one that wanted him gone is pretty ridiculous. Theo had been tryting to get rid of this guy since 2003, and he thought he had finally gotten his justification.

 

There, phew that took alot out of me. Go ahead rip apart everything I said, but thats all I got.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Go ahead rip apart everything I said' date=' but thats all I got.[/quote']

 

Hey, I said that I wouldn't argue.

 

I've got reasons for believing that Tito could've done better. Those are 20 from just 2005.

 

Who's starting the Game Thread?