Tavarez Trade Value

[TheKilo]

Answer = not much value

 

I'd throw Tavarez back in the bullpen when Lester comes back.

 

But let's be real, pitching filler will fetch not much more than pitching filler.

[BSN07]

Holliday RF, Drew CF, Manny LF..... That could work...

 

As far as who I would give up? Holliday might be one of the only players I might consider just about anyone would be avilable. One of the B's, Taveraz, and WMP plus maybe another prospect.

 

It will beinteresting to see if there is a reaction by our FO after the Rocket landed in NY. I do think we need an impact bat to come in but I'm not sure who or what position. Lowell, Youk are hitting good, Lugo is decent, Pedroia is struggling so maybe there, but there isnt much out there for impact bats at 2B, Tek is hitting like s*** but theres no way the bring in a new Catcher at this point, Crisp looks to be coming around, our offense isnt great but I dont see them replacing anyone at this point, maybe they make a trade for a 5th starter and leave Lester in AAA all season. We will have to wait closer to the TDL before we know what we need and whos available.

[ryanromine]

I really don't know what to say to all of this! I mean the Rocket landed in NY after receiving a substantial offer from the Sox FO. Once the Yanks get healthy this will become one of those seasons that will be unforgettable!

 

I don't like Tavarez, I think a deal needs to be done, because of the recent events, but then again who would want JT and what would the Sox be willing to give up for an impact bat or pitching! I would like to see Carl Crawford in a Sox uni someday. Maybe this could be something worth while

[mtbykr]

I really don't know what to say to all of this! I mean the Rocket landed in NY after receiving a substantial offer from the Sox FO. Once the Yanks get healthy this will become one of those seasons that will be unforgettable!

 

I don't like Tavarez, I think a deal needs to be done, because of the recent events, but then again who would want JT and what would the Sox be willing to give up for an impact bat or pitching! I would like to see Carl Crawford in a Sox uni someday. Maybe this could be something worth while

 

Actually what i heard was the sox offered a pro-rated $18mil salary...which is $10mil less than the yanks........so he wanted to go to more money and play with his buddy petite. Someone better tell yankee fans that bringing back all the guys who won you a ring doesn't mean you will get a ring, especially considering how old they are. soroger is dead to me now, good luck in the AL East buddy:D Let's keep JT and move on!

[a700hitter]

Actually what i heard was the sox offered a pro-rated $18mil salary...which is $10mil less than the yanks........so he wanted to go to more money and play with his buddy petite. Someone better tell yankee fans that bringing back all the guys who won you a ring doesn't mean you will get a ring' date=' especially considering how old they are. soroger is dead to me now, good luck in the AL East buddy:D Let's keep JT and move on![/quote']Bringing back Clemens can only help them. How could it hurt them when they had frick and frack in the 4th and 5th slots. It may not guarantee a World Championship, but it improves their chances. It's a good move for their team and a great move for their fans. We look like idiots if we don'y acknowledge that. Our guys came up $10 million short, which is ridiculous.

[ORS]

Our guys came up $10 million short' date=' which is ridiculous.[/quote']

Do you think he chooses Boston if the money were the same? I don't. I've stated that there were reasons he "might" choose the Sox, but his comments seemed to indicate there was more emotional weight drawing him back to NY. I don't think there is an offer the Yankees wouldn't have matched given their need, and money being equal, I have to think he chooses them.

 

And, it not just about the money. His legacy is set no matter how this turns out. Had he returned to Boston it would have been a good story, but he would be no savior. Now, if everything breaks right, he gets seen, rightly or wrongly, as the savior to their season. The biggest media market, for the most successful team in history? It suits his ego perfectly.

 

I know you'll use this to rail on the FO. It's your thing. But I don't think the reality of the situation will lend any credence to those criticisms. He wasn't coming here. Period. What they offered is immaterial in light of that.

[BoSox21]

under no circumstances were the Yankees going to be outbid by the Red Sox. if the Sox offered $35 mil, the Yankees would've offered $40 mil. bottom line, if John Henry put up $28 mil, it wouldn't have put Roger in a Sox uniform

[a700hitter]

Do you think he chooses Boston if the money were the same? I don't. I've stated that there were reasons he "might" choose the Sox' date=' but his comments seemed to indicate there was more emotional weight drawing him back to NY. I don't think there is an offer the Yankees wouldn't have matched given their need, and money being equal, I have to think he chooses them. [/quote']This is a rationalization. Our guys came up $10 million short. The only way your statement could be verified would be if the Red Sox made an identical offer.

 

I know you'll use this to rail on the FO. It's your thing. But I don't think the reality of the situation will lend any credence to those criticisms. He wasn't coming here. Period. What they offered is immaterial in light of that.

More rationalization. ORS, please don't become a FO ballwasher on me. It's a cheap shot to say that it is my "thing" to criticize the FO. I acknowledge their good moves. I always liked the Beckett deal. I was turning cartwheels for Dice K and I was unwavering in my belief that they would get him signed. I like the Lugo signing. Initially, I even liked the WMP-Arroyo trade. It would be boring though to debate the things that I think they did right. Discussing the deficiencies of the team generates a more lively discussion That is what I am about. The Yankees made a good move and our FO arrogantly sat on their hands thinking they didn't need Clemens:

 

From Today's Boston Globe:

"Their words and the meeting was terrific," said Hendricks, who was in Boston last week for meetings with Sox brass Tuesday and Wednesday and had dinner in John W. Henry's box Wednesday night during the Sox-Athletics game when the Sox made their bid for Clemens. "They wanted him later than our schedule. I think they would have liked him but didn't think they needed him. I would say they didn't feel the need but had the desire."

 

They needed to sell the agent that Clemens was a top priority, and they apparently failed at that.

[a700hitter]

under no circumstances were the Yankees going to be outbid by the Red Sox. if the Sox offered $35 mil' date=' the Yankees would've offered $40 mil. bottom line, if John Henry put up $28 mil, it wouldn't have put Roger in a Sox uniform[/quote']This is unsupported rationalization. We came up $10 million short. THe Fo should have come up with the $10 million and let the Yankees increase the pot by another $10 million. If that had happened, your theory would have some credence, but it didn't happen. Your theor has no support in fact.

[BoSox21]

Clemens was a top priority but the Sox weren't in a state of desperation to get him the way the Yankees were. Besides, if Clemens really wanted to come to Boston, the agent would've come to Boston saying "New York has offered $28 million, can you match that?" rather than "We've decided to sign elsewhere"

[BoSox21]

This is unsupported rationalization. We came up $10 million short. THe Fo should have come up with the $10 million and let the Yankees increase the pot by another $10 million. If that had happened' date=' your theory would have some credence, but it didn't happen. Your theor has no support in fact.[/quote']

 

No, it just has support in logic. I firmly believe the money we bid is a moot point cause history, logic and the Yankee way of doing business all says they would have paid whatever it took to get Clemens

[a700hitter]

Clemens was a top priority but the Sox weren't in a state of desperation to get him the way the Yankees were. Besides' date=' if Clemens really wanted to come to Boston, the agent would've come to Boston saying "New York has offered $28 million, can you match that?" rather than "We've decided to sign elsewhere"[/quote']So, you think Hendricks didn't tell the Red Sox what he was looking for when he spent almost an entire day with the Red Sox management? What kind of stupid agent would do that? It would not be the best way to maximize your client's value. These were not secret negotiations.

[TedWilliams101]

Clemens isn't worth $28 million for 2/3 of a season. He isn't even worth $18 million for 2/3 of a season. The Yankees paid way way way too much for him in desperation and the Sox didn't because we don't need him. End of story. He improves the Yankees, not a real $28 million improvement, but an improvement non the less.

 

As for trading Tavarez, the Rockies want to get rid of Helton. Thats why the trade talks started and thats why they might seem interested in Tavarez. They aren't going to part with Holiday.

[BoSox21]

in the end, the Sox simply weren't willing and probably weren't able to do whatever it took to outbid the Yankees and time will tell whether they're gonna pay a hefty price for the way things turned out but I don't place blame on the FO for this

[ORS]

I agree, what I opined cannot be supported in fact. If it could have been, it wouldn't be an opinion. It also cannot be discarded. Given his comments, which I acknowledge could have just been "saying the right thing", I think he picks NY all things being equal. And, given NY's need and M.O., I think it would be hard to demonstrate how they wouldn't match any offer.

 

I'm not trying to wash any balls here. I'm just not finding fault in this instance.

 

Good for them. This move definitely makes them better. I don't think it makes them better than us, though. The stretch run will be fun.

[BSN07]

Everyone needs to stop having a knee jerk reaction to this hole Roja situation. See how it pans out then we will know if it was worth it or not. Its a mooooot point to try and think if it was a great move or not now.

[BSN07]

Besides Roja gets to stroll into town looking like a hero with everyone feeding his ego, he will make the NYY fans think he was coming to be the savior, when truthfully he was woreing himself out to make his wallet fatter. If he had such love for NY, he would have gone there last season. He wanted the most money plus he gets to look like a hero. Hes a self promoter just like Schilling. If he had come to Boston, he would have been a great pitcher coming to pitch in an already good rotation, now he gets top be a great pitcher joining a mash unit, which makes him the Ace of the staff.

[TheKilo]

This is unsupported rationalization. We came up $10 million short. THe Fo should have come up with the $10 million and let the Yankees increase the pot by another $10 million. If that had happened' date=' your theory would have some credence, but it didn't happen. Your theor has no support in fact.[/quote']

 

When the Yankees increased the pot by another $10 million, should the Sox have then matched that offer too?

 

At what point do you draw the line for a 5 inning pitcher?

 

Plus, HE'S NOT GOING TO BE READY FOR A MONTH!

[HeadOfSoxNation]

No way the Rockies would think of dealing Holiday. If they did, I'd be willing to give up Coco, WMP, and one of the B's to get him. I'd even consider throwing in another prospect. He's going to be a stud for years to come IMO.

 

EDIT: Oh, and if they want Tavarez too, they can have him. I'll even give them a handjob if they agree to let us keep that other prospect I mentioned and take on Tavarez.

[a700hitter]

in the end' date=' the Sox simply weren't willing and probably weren't able to do whatever it took to outbid the Yankees and time will tell whether they're gonna pay a hefty price for the way things turned out but I don't place blame on the FO for this[/quote']It's obvoius that they didn't want him or they wouldn't have been outbid by $10 million. Whether they "weren't able" to afford him, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Even the FO spinmeisters aren't trying to float that rationalization after having spent like drunken sailors.

[TheKilo]

It's obvoius that they didn't want him or they wouldn't have been outbid by $10 million. Whether they "weren't able" to afford him' date=' there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Even the FO spinmeisters aren't trying to float that rationalization after having spent like drunken sailors.[/quote']

 

The FO not wanting him isn't the worst option either.

[a700hitter]

I agree' date=' what I opined cannot be supported in fact. If it could have been, it wouldn't be an opinion. It also cannot be discarded. Given his comments, which I acknowledge could have just been "saying the right thing", I think he picks NY all things being equal. And, given NY's need and M.O., I think it would be hard to demonstrate how they wouldn't match any offer.[/quote']Here's a question for you. If he was so keen on going to NY, why did it take the Yankees an extra $10 million to get him. They were obviously not that confident that he would go to NY, so they came with a huge offer. His post signing statements mean nothing. No player signs with one team and says he was really considering the arch-rival. They learn that early on.

 

Good for them. This move definitely makes them better. I don't think it makes them better than us' date=' though. The stretch run will be fun.[/quote']Rocket makes them better. He would have made us better. They win in this instance. That fact will not change if we win the World Championship.

 

All that being said, I think we can spank Roger. The last time he faced us he did his best to help us win the pennant, but he was outdone by our Forest Gump manager. Whether we spank Roger or not, he would have made us better, and he makes the Yankees better. I'd rather face Rasner or one of their other rookies than Clemens in game 7 of the A LCS. Wouldn't you?

[a700hitter]

When the Yankees increased the pot by another $10 million, should the Sox have then matched that offer too?

 

At what point do you draw the line for a 5 inning pitcher?

 

Plus, HE'S NOT GOING TO BE READY FOR A MONTH!

My point was that if the Red Sox had upped their bid to be in the ballpark with the Yankees' bid, we could conclude the Red Sox were serious about getting him and that Clemens was predisposed to going to the Yankees if he took a comparable Yankee offer. We would also have found out if the yankees were willing to pay any price. Our guys were not in the ballpark with their offer, so none of these things can be concluded. Their offer was lower than last years' offer of $22 million prorated. If they wanted him so badly, why offer him less than you offered him last year? I conclude that they didn't want him.

[a700hitter]

The FO not wanting him isn't the worst option either.

Tavarez is the better option? We would rather face Clemens than Rasner? Where is the better option?

[mtbykr]

Bringing back Clemens can only help them. How could it hurt them when they had frick and frack in the 4th and 5th slots. It may not guarantee a World Championship' date=' but it improves their chances. It's a good move for their team and a great move for their fans. We look like idiots if we don'y acknowledge that. Our guys came up $10 million short, which is ridiculous.[/quote']

 

 

I didn't say it would hurt them, of course this will help them and it's a great move for them. My point was that Yank fans i have heard are high as a kite cause they have have clemens and petite back and they think they are back in their glory days....all the guys from the "glory days" are a lot older now so don't expect the same results. That was my point.

 

I think signing clemens is a good move for them, both on and off the field. While he's not going (my opinion) to be the low era guy he was the last couple years in the NL Central (which sucks offensivly) He is a guy who will give them 5 solid innings and he has experience in big games. He's not the savior (although if they win it all he will be looked at that way) but he will def help their rotation!

[mtbykr]

Clemens isn't worth $28 million for 2/3 of a season. He isn't even worth $18 million for 2/3 of a season. The Yankees paid way way way too much for him in desperation and the Sox didn't because we don't need him. End of story. He improves the Yankees, not a real $28 million improvement, but an improvement non the less.

 

As for trading Tavarez, the Rockies want to get rid of Helton. Thats why the trade talks started and thats why they might seem interested in Tavarez. They aren't going to part with Holiday.

 

 

 

Just to clarify, it's a pro-rated salary meaning he would make $28mil if he played the whole year....it works out to about $4.5mil a month

[mtbykr]

My point was that if the Red Sox had upped their bid to be in the ballpark with the Yankees' bid' date=' we could conclude the Red Sox were serious about getting him and that Clemens was predisposed to going to the Yankees if he took a comparable Yankee offer. We would also have found out if the yankees were willing to pay any price. Our guys were not in the ballpark with their offer, so none of these things can be concluded. Their offer was lower than last years' offer of $22 million prorated. If they wanted him so badly, why offer him less than you offered him last year? I conclude that they didn't want him.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't say they didn't want him, but i don't think they needed him as bad as the yanks and they showed that. They are confident in who they have as a staff and clemens could only help that...but they were willing to let it ride with who they have. Mabey they didn't want to throw that kind of cash out there since they haven't signed Shill for next year and if they threw clemens $28mil, the price of shill might have gone up.....just a theory. Bottom line is (i believe) the FO wanted him, but the need wasn't as great as last years nor the yanks this year!

[a700hitter]

I didn't say it would hurt them, of course this will help them and it's a great move for them. My point was that Yank fans i have heard are high as a kite cause they have have clemens and petite back and they think they are back in their glory days....all the guys from the "glory days" are a lot older now so don't expect the same results. That was my point.

 

I think signing clemens is a good move for them, both on and off the field. While he's not going (my opinion) to be the low era guy he was the last couple years in the NL Central (which sucks offensivly) He is a guy who will give them 5 solid innings and he has experience in big games. He's not the savior (although if they win it all he will be looked at that way) but he will def help their rotation!

They have a right to be happy. It was the best move available to their management to improve their team. We may still beat them, but it would have been easier if we had Clemens and they didn't. Is anyone here drinking so much Kool Aid that they would disagree with that?

[mtbykr]

They have a right to be happy. It was the best move available to their management to improve their team. We may still beat them' date=' but it would have been easier if we had Clemens and they didn't. Is anyone here drinking so much Kool Aid that they would disagree with that?[/quote']

 

I think we would all agree it would be better for us to have clemens and the yanks not, moreso the yanks not! I just think the sox FO put a value on him (like the pats do) since they were not desperate, and it didn't work out

[TheKilo]

Tavarez is the better option? We would rather face Clemens than Rasner? Where is the better option?

 

Spending $35 million on the guy is not a sound business decision. I'm sorry. He's feasted on weak NL lineups. He can't pitch past 6 innings anymore. Not worth the money.