Pedro V. Rocket

[Pedro]

Unlike probably the rest of you, I didn't go straight to bed after last night's utterly disgusting loss to the Rockies. In fact, I couldn't sleep at all, which is why I'll be able to run my mouth like a lunatic on this extremely interesting discussion (at least to me).

 

After all the postgame stuff, SportsPlus came on... I'm sure you've seen it on NESN at one point or the other where Bob Lobel and a couple guys from the The Globe will come in and talk New England sports. So anyway, the topic of the show was on Pedro and Clemens, and which one had produced better results in a Sox uniform. Lobel seemed to go both ways, because he's supposed to be objective. DuPont said he'd take Clemens and said a bunch of rather retarded things about Pedro that I don't want to hear again. The CHB on the other hand, to my complete surprise, said he would take Pedro simply because of how dominant he was in 1999-2000.

 

On Boston.com, they had an open poll asking the same question, and although I'm not sure where it stands now, this was the result after my vote was casted:

 

Which pitcher has produced better results in a Red Sox uniform?

Pedro Martinez                           50.0%
Roger Clemens                            50.0%

Total votes: 13,444

 

That is unbelievable but yet, not surprising at all.

 

Obviously, you probably know which way I'm going to sway on this debate, but first let me say that as much as I love Pedro, I'll also be the very first one to criticize him when he has a bad performance or when he comes out and says something completely retarded. On the flip side, I'll also be the first to tell you that he's the God of the Universe and all that nonsense. Also, I've already made some rather negative posts about Clemens, but I'll say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for his pitching talent, and that what he accomplished in Boston is undeniable greatness. He could very well be the best right-hander of the last 75 years as Schilling called him. However, this debate is about who was a better pitcher for the RED SOX. What Clemens accomplished from '97 on has no bearing in this discussion.

 

Being born in 1987, it would be pretty obvious that I didn't see all too much of Rocket in his Boston heyday. I always loved baseball, but I didn't start following the Red Sox with a life-and-death attitude until the summer of '98 - Pedro's first season as a Red Sox. Coincidence.

 

Pedro (1998-2003)

GS         168
WL         101-28
WPCT       .783
ERA        2.26
WHIP       0.94
IP         1,166.2
CG         21
K          1,456
BB         248
K/BB       5.87
K/9 IP     11.23
H/9 IP     6.56
BB/9 IP    1.91
BR/9 IP    8.95

 

Rocket (1984-1996)

GS          382
WL          192-111
WPCT       .634
ERA         3.06
WHIP        1.16
IP          2,776.0
CG          100
K           2,590
BB          856
K/BB        3.03
K/9 IP      8.40
H/9 IP      7.65
BB/9 IP     2.78
BR/9 IP     10.70

 

There are some looney's out there that love looking at the quantitative statistics - the ones that are gradually built up over long periods of time: Wins, Innings Pitched, Strikeouts. They also don't like to seem to look at anything else! These are obviously the people who voted Clemens on that poll because let's face it - Clemens was never as dominant as Pedro at his peak, and really the only reason his quantitative numbers overpower Pedro's is because maybe he's started 214 more games? Maybe because... Pedro hasn't started HALF the amount that Roger did in Boston yet? Maybe because... Roger was a Red Sox pitcher for 13 years and Pedro is just entering his 7th? And yet, the numbers are still comparable.

 

Again, people will look at that and say: "Rocket had more wins, innings and strikeouts. Debate over." -- Now obviously, 100 complete games to 21 is something Pedro isn't going to catch up to with ANY amount of starts. But the wins, the strikeouts... he can pile those up pretty well if he gets another 3 years in Boston beyond 2004. Clemens is known as the heir to Nolan Ryan as far as strikeout pitchers are concerned... Clemens has 1,134 more strikeouts in a Red Sox uniform than Pedro does. However, he also has 186 fewer K's than IP. Pedro has 289 MORE strikeouts than IP. He has struckout almost 3 more batters per 9 IP than Roger did. Clemens has 68 career double figure strikeout games as a Red Sox... Pedro has 66 through 2003. Did I mention Clemens has started 214 MORE GAMES? 214 more games... yet Pedro also has just 91 fewer wins. His ERA is lower by almost an entire run. The Adjusted ERA is just a laughable comparison. Looking all across the board - Win Percentage, WHIP, K-to-BB ratio, K's per 9, Hits per 9, Walks per 9, baserunners per 9 as well as Opp. AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS... I didn't mention mention those because it's a TKO. He has gotten so many undeserved "losses" and "no-decisions" yet he has the best winning percentage of any one pitcher in history for a single franchise; min. 100 decisions.

 

I would take Pedro on 1999-2000 alone... simply the most dominant pitching. Ever. Please, please ask me to prove it.

 

Just for the fun of it, here's a description of each game Pedro and Rocket were matched up against each other:

 

The first time they went head to head was in the ALCS on October 16, 1999. Clemens lasted only two-plus innings and allowed five runs on six hits and two walks. Martinez pitched seven scoreless innings and struck out 12 as the Red Sox pummeled their arch rivals 13-1 at Fenway Park.

 

The second head-to-head confrontation took place on May 28, 2000. Martinez outdueled Clemens in a 2-0 Red Sox victory, tossing a complete game shutout while scattering four hits and striking out nine. Clemens also pitched a complete game, allowing only five hits while striking out a season high 13 batters. Trot Nixon hit a two-run home run with two outs in the top of the ninth inning to beat Clemens and the Yankees. After hitting two batters just to make it interesting, Pedro induced Tino Martinez to ground out to second with the bases loaded to end the game with a 97 mph fastball on his 128th pitch of the night to put the Red Sox in first place.

 

The third matchup occurred less than three weeks later on June 14, 2000 but failed to fulfill the excitement of the previous game as "The Rocket" left the game after only one inning with a strained groin, an injury that placed him on the disabled list the following day. Pedro went six innings and allowed one run and struck out 10 Yankees but did not get credit for the victory as Boston rallied late to defeat New York, 2-1.

 

Clemens and Martinez paired up again on April 14, 2001. The Yankees won, 3-2, but Martinez (7 IP, 2 R, 9 K) out pitched Clemens (6 IP, 2 R, 5 K) again. However, neither pitcher figured in the decision because of the anemic Boston offense and their Anti-Pedro Run Support ways.

 

On October 11 2003, Roger Clemens did something that he’d never done in his illustrious career – He actually beat Pedro Martinez. In his last start at Fenway Park, Clemens went 6 innings, allowing 3 ER while Martinez struggled early and took the loss with a 7 inning, 4 ER performance.

 

On October 16, 2003 in Game 7 of the ALCS, Clemens went back to his old tricks by not showing up to face Pedro and left after 3 stank innings. Martinez was able to dominate through the first 6 innings with a fastball topping out at 90 mph because his pitches had wicked location and movement. It wasn't until the 7th did he unleash his 95 mph fastball, blowing it by a very, very confused Alfonso Soriano. He would pitch 7 1/3 innings of 2-run ball before Gump Little went absolutely insane and let Pedro continue to pitch past a mark in which batters hit .370 against him. It would go down as the most pathetic "comeback" in the history of baseball.

 

 

Please at least give a brief explanation of your choice... no vote-and-run business.

 

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/pg2/2001/0531/photo/s_clemens_i.jpghttp://www.projo.com/sharedcontent/east/newballgame/content/L_IMAGE.f6fae7d570.93.88.fa.80.3ecb0a2c.jpg

[trot4mvp]

Like you said, I'd take Pedro on 1999-2000 alone...however, I'm extremely biased AGAINST the Rocket thanks to Bill Simmons' "Roger Clemens is the Anti-Christ" column. I can't stand even looking at Clemens...I don't care if he goes on the win the NL Cy Young this year. He's despicable.

[Pedro]

Don't worry, Clemens isn't winning any Cy Young this season. Anytime he's faced a team twice, he's gotten absolutely hammered. He'll continue to face familiar teams and keep getting hit hard.

 

Jason Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Tom Glavine and Carlos Zambrano will all put up much better seasons.

[trot4mvp]

Agreed...it can be expected that one of the AL's most dominant pitchers over the last decade would experience some immediate success when they switch leagues for the first time. I know he won't win the Cy this year; my point was that he could be the best player in baseball and I wouldn't like him.

[yeszir]

I'm definitely in on this later on today, I dont have time to make a really detailed post right now. But expect one in the near future.

[JMDurron]

I would take Pedro as well. This is largely due to the fact that Pedro as put up better numbers in a more offensive era than Clemens did, and the fact that Clemens tanked for the better part of his last 4 years in Boston. Pedro has struggled for....um....5 starts? Also, it's not like Roger was never injured, I don't see why he gets such a blank check on that account, relative to Pedro.

 

Although we should be thanking Roger right now for straightening out Schilling's work ethic at their fateful meeting in Texas way back when. How's that for irony?

[Pedro]

The funny thing about that SportsPlus show was that the one guy who said he'd take Clemens, DuPont, also said that we'll probably see a lot more pitchers like Pedro.

 

Right... please tell me when a pitcher that weighs 165 pounds soaking wet can spot a 98 mph fastball. Much less, break all of the standards of dominance Pedro has set. They also have to pitch half their games at Fenway.

[Pedro]

Originally posted by JMDurron@Jun 17 2004, 05:51 AM

I would take Pedro as well. This is largely due to the fact that Pedro as put up better numbers in a more offensive era than Clemens did.

Can back that up with numbers..

 

Pedro ERA vs. League

 

1998: 2.89 - 4.66

1999: 2.07 - 4.87

2000: 1.74 - 4.92

2001: 2.39 - 4.48

2002: 2.26 - 4.47

2003: 2.22 - 4.53

 

The year before his arrival in Boston he posted a 1.90 ERA in 241 IP for Montreal compared to the league average of 4.21. He's lead the majors in ERA five of the last 7 seasons.

[Zenny]

Pedro had the most dominant six-year run of any pitcher. Ever. It's Pedro. Period. Done. Out.

[yawkeyway]

Absolutely Pedro. I probably don't have to explain my reasoning, but what the hell, I'll do it anyway! This says it all:

 

He has a 10.43 K/9IP ratio.

4.36 K/BB (although this has been falling drastically in the past few years)

.712 career winning percentage

His 99 season was the single best performance by any pitcher I have ever seen. Ever.

Pedro also has a career 2.63 ERA

 

Clemens, on the other hand, has had a much longer career, and has been able to rack up strikeouts and wins and whatnot. But take in to consideration, he's also fat. Here are some stats about him:

 

Clemens has a career 3.18 ERA

8.65 K/9IP

.665 winning percentage (and he's been on the YANKEES, so why isnt this higher?)

2.97 K/BB

Ok, he has 314 wins, but he's been pitching for 20 years.

 

I took Clemens's wins, divided by 20 (his years playing) and got 15.7 wins per season. I did the same for Pedro, and he has 14.4, a difference of about 1 game per season.

 

So, in the statistics that really count, Pedro is far and away better than Clemens. That's why I voted him. Also, Clemens began to deteriorate at the end of his Red Sox career, prompting Duquette to say he was in the "twilight" of it.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by yeszir@Jun 17 2004, 07:42 AM

I'm definitely in on this later on today, I dont have time to make a really detailed post right now. But expect one in the near future.

It's been 3 days now, any thoughts?

[yeszir]

I got lazy, sorry. Maybe today? I say Pedro though.

[YanksHater213]

Originally posted by yeszir@Jun 20 2004, 12:45 PM

I got lazy, sorry. Maybe today? I say Pedro though.

its ok, everyone is lazy from time to time

[Rice4thehall]

Definitely Pedro. Besides being statistically superior in every category,Clemens playoff pitching had to be some of the shittiest damn performances by any modern day "ace". I can't think of one playoff "gem" he threw for the Sox. Pedro on the other hand will always be in my good graces for the way he battles and doesn't wus out. Not to mention what he did in game five against the Guardians in 2000 I believe.

[Pedro]

Funny that the 3 people who voted Clemens have no explanation...

[noonanberg]

Pedro is the better performer when it matters. His perfect relief against the Guardians in '99 was amazing. Never seen the Rocket do that. Pedro has won most of the much hyped Pedro/Rocket battles. But for me the deciding factor was one particular battle, in October. While the Rocket was lit up for 5 runs early as well as an early exit, Pedro pitched a great game and if only Grady could have taken him out he would have won that battle as well. Pedro is #1.

[Pedro]

The only time Clemens ever showed up to face Pedro in a head-to-head match-up with the exception of his Quality start last October was the game from May of 2000 that will be on Classic Wednesday. They both pitched 8 scoreless innings before Nixon hit a 2-run bomb off Clemens in the ninth. Pedro came out in the bottom half and shut the door to put the Sox in 1st place.