moonslav59

If Moncada is not one of the players going to the CWS, my guess is they are asking for: Benintendi and 3 (I doubt just two would get it done) from... Swihart Devers Kopech ERod Pomeranz

Agreed, and if the return would be less to get Quintana over Sale, I'd try harder to make it happen.

"...Chicago is seeking “at least” four young players from Boston, including “three of [their] best.” - Jon Heyman I might give Benintendi, Swihart or Devers, Kopech and Owens/Johnson Is that "three of our best" good enough? Would Beni, Swi & Devers be enough?

We are currently 11th in HRs but just a couple HRs from 8th. Without Papi, we'd be a lot lower, but replacing him with a 15-20 HR guy would not drop us that far. Take away about 10 HRS right now and we're 15th or 16th in MLB. I get that it would be worse than that inr eality, because we play in a hitter's park, but I think our youth has a lot of romm fro upward growth in power. With less than a quarter of the season remaining, we have the current players on pace for this.... Age Player HR 2B+3B 40 Ortiz 33 48 23 Betts 28 44 26 J B Jr 22 41 23 Bogey 18 33 32 HRam 17 27 32 Pedey 16 33 26 Shaw 16 42 pro-rate to 600 PAs: 32 Young 24 48 27 Leon 18 66 28 Holt 15 30 We may not need 30 HRs from Encarnacion to replace Papi's power, but replacing his clutch hits is something we will need to discover. Let's see how our kids do in crunch time this fall. Maybe we have someone special on the roster already and don't know it yet.

He also had some big hits later in the season.

How about Mike Napoli hitting his 23rd HR and getting his 70th RBI today? He's on pace for career highs in HRs and RBIs with an .815 OPS. (Note: He's on pace for his most Ks too, but as I've said, KS are over-rated.)

So, how do you compare the trade of Miller, making less money than Kimbrel, to the trade for Kimbrel?

Where's the Yankee troll that blasted me for saying they were going to be sellers this summer? ....Cue the sound of Crickets.... I must admit, the Yanks did pretty good rebuilding their farm. For a 2+ month rental of Chapman, they got #41 (BA) Gleyber Torres (#27 mid-season) Rashad Crawford Billy McKinney For Andrew Miller (2.3 years remaining at $9M/yr), they got #44 (BA) Clint Frazier (21 mid-season) #81 (BA) Justus Sheffield (69 mid-season) Ben Heller JP Feyereisen Wonder what they want for Beltran.

It would be a huge mistake by many scouts and ranking services. Here are the top 5 ranked players from years ago (Baseball America): 1990- S Avery, B McDonald, J Olerud, Juan Gonzalez, S Alomar (15 Ventura) 1991- T Van Poppel, A Cedeno, R Klesko, Offerman, Salkeld (10 M vaughn/15 W Banks) 1992- B Taylor, Van Poppel, R Salkeld, Chipper Jones, A Rhodes (15 D Bell) 1993- C Jones, B Taylor, C Floyd, Delgado, T Salmon, 15 Ro. White 1994- C Floyd, C Jones, J Hammonds, AGon, Delgado 15 R Klesko 1995- ARod, R Rivera, C Jones, Jeter, B Hunter, 15 A Osuna 1996- A Jones, P Wilson, R Rivera, D Erstad, A Benes, 15 B Colon 1997- A Jones, V Guerrero, K Wood, m White, T Lee, 15 De. Lee 1998- B Grieve, Konerko, A Beltre, K Wood, Aramis Ramireez, 15 J Encarnacion 1999- JD Drew, R Ankiel, E Chavez, B Chen, B Penny, 15 J Patterson 2000- R Ankiel, P Burrell, C Patterson, V Wells, N Johnson, 15 M Riley 2001- Josh Hamilton, Patterson, J Beckett, J Rauch, B Sheets, 15 C-H Tsao 2002- J Beckett, M Prior, H Blaylock, Burroughs, C Pena, 15 A Berroa 2003- Teixeira, Baldelli, J Reyes, Mauer, J Foppert, 15 J Stokes 2004- J Mauer, M Upton, D Young, E Jackson, R Weeks, 15 Kotchman 2005- J mauer, Felix H, D Young, I Stewart, J Guzman, 15 P Fielder 2006- D Young, J Upton, B Wood, J Hermida, S Drew, 15 R Zimmerman 2007- Dice-K, A Gordon, D Young, P Hughes, H Bailey, 15 Tulowitzski 2008- J Bruce, Longoria, Chamberlain, Buccholz, Rasmus, 15 J McGee) 2009- Wieters, D Price, C Rasmus, T Hanson, Heyward, 15 D Fowler 2010- Heyward, Strasburg, G Stanton, Montero, Matusz, 15 Dom. Brown 2011- Harper, Trout, J Montero, Brown, Teheran, 15 M Moore 2012- Harper, M Moore, Trout, Darvish, Teheran, 15 J TaILLON 2013- J Profar, D Bundy, O Taveras, W Myers, Jose fernandez, 15 Yelich 2014- B Buxton, X Bogaerts, O Taveras, Tanaka, Baez, 15 D Bundy 2015- K Bryant, B Buxton, A Russell, C Correa, J Gallo, 15 C Roden 2016 C Seager, B Buxton, Y Moncada, Urias, Giolito 15 Benintendi

We can't keep throwing money at every conceivable problem area. We suck at it, and most GMs do as well. With Moncada and Beni currently blocked or bottlenecked at the major league level and Pablo coming back for an expensive DFA or challenge to a FT slot, we have a long list of competition for 4 slots next year, not counting the 4 guys looking to get significant catcher action [Vazquez, Swihart, Leon and Hanigan (option)]. 3B, LF, DH & 1B HanRam 1B/DH Moncada 3B?/LF?/DH? Benintendi LF T Shaw 3B/1B (platoon) Young LF/DH (platoon) Swihart LF/ 1B? © Sandoval 3B/DH/ 1B? Holt LF/3B/1B long shots: Hernandez 3B Travis 1B Rutledge 3B Marrero 3B Castillo LF One could argue that we are just stacked with mediocrity and speculative talent, and I'm normally onboard with seeking quality over quantity, especially with pitching, but with such a high need with our pitching staff (1 TOR SP'er and 2 RP'ers), I think we may have to roll the dice and hope 4 of the 7 players listed above come through or a long shot surprises us to snag a slot away from the top 7 listed. I like those odds better than relying on in house solutions to our pitching woes.

If you add last seasons mistakes, highlighted by HanRam & Pablo, we're on an awful transaction streak.

I'm not sold on Encarnacion as a "must". We may end up trading for a high priced pitcher, so the return in prospects will not have to be so large. Our luxury tax budget will still be tight, despite its expected increase and the loss of several large contracts. We will need to replace Uehara and Tazawa and find an top quality SP'er. If we can do that without trading away our future and still sign Encarnacion, I'm all in.

I'd love to get Encarnacion, and I hope he wouldn't flop like all our other recent major signings, but I'm just not sure spending big on him won't severely tie our hands going forward in regards to acquiring top quality pitching. Even with the loss of Papi, hitting will not be close to our biggest weakness, and to me, fixing your weakest "links" is the best way to improve a team. I don't see a lot of weakness in this 2017 line-up: 1) Betts RF 2) Pedey 2B 3) Bogey SS 4) Bradley CF 5) HanRam 1B/DH 6) Moncada 3B/DH 7) Shaw 3B/1B 8) Benintendi LF/Young LF/DH 9) Leon/Vazquez C/Swihart C/LF UT- Holt (Sandoval/Hernandez/Rutledge/Travis/Marrero) SP) Price, _______, Porcello, Wright, Pomeranz, (swing) Erod RP) Kimbrel, Smith, ______, ______, Barnes, Kelly, Hembree, Ross/Layne Reserves SP) Owens, Johnson, Elias, O'Sullivan, Cuevas, Haley (Kopech) RP) (Sp'er from above),Layne/Ross, Workman, Light, Martin, N Ramirez, Ysla Adding Encarnacion on relying on all of the 5 SP'ers to come through and not get hurt might work: 1) Betts RF 2) Pedey 2B 3) Bogey SS 4) Encarnacion DH/1B 5) Bradley CF 6) HanRam 1B/DH 7) Moncada/Shaw 3B 8) Benintendi LF/Young LF/DH 9) Leon/Vazquez UT- Swihart or Holt (Sandoval/Hernandez/Rutledge/Travis/Marrero) SP) Price, Porcello, Wright, Pomeranz, Erod, (swing Kelly) RP) Kimbrel, Smith, ______, ______, Barnes, Hembree, Ross, Layne Reserves SP) Owens, Johnson, Elias, O'Sullivan, Cuevas, Haley (Kopech) RP) (Sp'er from above), Workman, Light, Martin, N Ramirez, Ysla

If I'm swinging a deal, I better be getting a TOTRS back. We've given up enough top prospects for #3's and relievers. Short. Sweet. And so complete.

1 CF Bradley is outstanding CF. Great coverage, great arm. Adding slugging % to his offense was a big plus. 2 RF Betts has converted to RF seamlessly. Great jump on balls. Has pop on his bat. Good speed. I might flip CF and RF, but since Betts is our back-up CF'er, I think you got the top two right. 3 SS Xander has become adequate shortstop defensively. Hits for high average. I'd take Betts over him due to better power numbers. Agreed, and with M Hernandez as his back-up and Dubon way down the road, I like this position here too. 4 2B Pedey simply needs to stay healthy. Can he do it for another 5 years? Big question, but I think 2b is Holt's best longterm position and Moncada will be ML ready by 2017, so B-I-N-G-O! 5 1B Hanley would be rated higher if he could provide more power I'd put the catcher position 5th. I'm not sold on Leon's bat, but he looks to not be a .180 guy anymore either. I love Vazquez and am not concerned about offense from the catcher position, although I've not given up on Vaquez's offense either. Swihart is also has a possible top catching future. throw in another year of hanigan control, and this position is deep and strong. I think HanRam or Pablo may be our DH's next year, but I'm not counting out the fact that Moncada may have to start at DH until he becomes a better fielder than Shaw at 3B, Beni/Young in LF or hanRam/Shaw at 1B. That may take time. So, HanRam is the likely 1bman next year. We may trade him as his stock has risen a little. I'm not sold on Shaw and never have been. I think he will be a platoon corner IF'er going forward., 6 3B Shaw has to learn to hit left handed pitching He won't. I see Moncada as our FT 3Bman, as soon as his defense is not a big enough minus there. This may not be until 2018, so I see 3B as 8th and LF as 9th. 7 C Sox currently own 5th best offensive output. Will have Vazquez to replace Hanigan. If Sandy comes down to earth, this position may become question mark. See above 8 LF Holt love fest continues but to me he's mediocre fielder and his bat does not justify full year start I've never viewed Holt as a FT player anywhere but maybe 2B, where he is blocked by Pedey and now Moncada. I think his value would be greater to another team than ours, once Papi retires. I like Hernandez and Benintendi as our subs with Rutledge, Marrero and Travis as contenders for the final slot. I see Young and Beni as our LF'ers next year- not Holt. I like Beni, but am not certain of his ML abilities. 9 DH Encarnacion or bust.....just refer back to last night's game I think a mix between HanRam, Shaw, Pablo, Young, Monca and others will no make this our weakest position, but certainly much weaker than it is now with Papi. Encarnacion would probably be a great add, but at what cost? We need pitching, pitching, pitching. In that order! So we can fix our biggest problem by signing a proven power hitter. Hitters are usually not at risky as pitchers, especially DH's. Sooner we find out about Benintendi and Moncada, better equipped Sox will be to get rid of redundancy/blocked players for needs. Agreed, so let's spend all our resources on upgrading pitching. If one of the kids fail, or someone else declines, it's easier to fix thoise problems mid-season than finding quality pitching at reasonable costs.

But, just for 1.3 years. [Lucroy] I just don't see the catcher position as being even close to our weakest link. We need to fix holes and not try to further block or bottleneck positions of strength. Moon, I get it....but what will it take? I respect your opinion. Like I mentioned on another thread, there may not be a viable solution to every problem. We could probably make ourselves a top 2 or 3 favorite this year by trading away a big chunk of our near and extended future, but I doubt I would agree on any deals for Sale or Quintana. We might just have to suck it up and hope for the best with maybe a minor pick-up of another RP'er and maybe a cheap, platoon LF'er. I really would love to get Quintana. I'd be willing to "overpay" for him, but even my suggested overpay would likely fall short, so I'm not sure there is an answer. I like Sale too, and would overpay for him, but again, my top suggested offer would probably not outdo the Dodgers or be enough to get the CWS to say yes. I really want to hold onto Moncada. I don't want to compare him to Trout, Harper or even Betts and Bogey,but I think the sky is the ceiling for this kid. I also really like Benintendi, and our need in LF is great, so I'd like to avoid trading him too, but I realize we'll have to give a lot to get one of these two guys. I've recently upped my suggested offers to something like this (the last ones are close calls for me- meaning I'm not sure I'd do them): Swihart, Devers, Kopech, one from Basabe, Lakins, TBall, Owens or Johnson Benintendi, Devers & one from Lakins, TBall, Owens or Johnson Benintendi & Swihart Benintendi, Kopech & one from Lakins, TBall, Owens or Johnson Moncada and two from Basabe, Lakins, TBall, Owens and Johnson. Moncada and Kopech Once you start getting to these, I'm leaning heavily to no: Beni and 2 from Swihart, Devers & Kopech Moncada & one from Swihart, Devers, Kopech I say no to: Moncada and Benintendi but with serious regrets we missed out on a true ace.

No big time pitchers to buy this winter though, so that's maybe a good sign. Here's a look at their big deals: Sabathia ($25M) may become a FA after this year if he does not end 2016 on the disabled list with a left shoulder injury, or does not spend more than 45 days in 2016 on the disabled list with a left shoulder injury, or does not make more than six relief appearances in 2016 because of a left shoulder injury Teixeira- FA next year ($22.5M Avg) Tanaka- FA after 2020 ($22.1M Avg) Ellsbury- FA after 2020 or 2021 ($21.9M Avg.) ARod- FA after 2017 ($27.5M Avg.) McCann- FA after 2018 or 2019 ($17M Avg.) Beltran- FA after this year ($15M Avg.) Gardner- FA after 2018 or 2019 ($13m Avg.) Headley- FA after 2018 ($13M Avg.) Castro- FA after 2019 or 2020 ($8.6M Avg.)

But, the Yanks did it for prospects. We did it for ML talent, except for ERod, Hembree & Marco Hernandez. Cespedes (who turned into Porcello) Kelly Craig

But, just for 1.3 years. I just don't see the catcher position as being even close to our weakest link. We need to fix holes and not try to further block or bottleneck positions of strength.

Then, they traded for Tyler Clippard- go figure!

Going forward, I think they have 3 issues - left fielder, starting pitcher, dh. I'm not nuts about them being able to solve any of those issues from within. Possibly left field and that's it. Obviously the bullpen always needs tinkering but if an when Smith gets back things will seem much better out there. Nobody is going to fully replace Papi at DH, but out of 1b/3B/LF we should be able to find a plus DH: Moncada, HanRam, Shaw, Sandoval, Young, Travis (LF? Benintendi/ Holt), (3B? Hernandez/ Rutledge) SP'er should be our number one focus. I agree that Encarnacion would be a nice pick-up, but his cost may lessen our chances at adding SP'ers to our roster.

I have to think running out Betts, Bogey, Bradley and Moncada every day is the core of a great offense. compliment that with a still able PD, Shaw (40-45 doubles?) and maybe Travis or Devers (in 2 years) this offense is built to last Don't forget Benintendi.

There is still a long way to go on many of our newly acquired players, and I'm one that does not participate in bestowing definitive judgments on GMs and players based on small samples sizes, but it's hard to ignore the cumulative effect of all these moves combined. My idea of a small sample size is probably larger than anyone elses, so I want to make it clear that I am not judging DD or the players on this list. I'm just pointing out the totality of such rotten start to DD's decision making so far- choices that were perhaps overlooked due to the good start the Sox got off to this spring. Signings: David Price- $217M/7 (with opt out) 4.26 ERA/ 11-11 team record in his starts/1.26 WHIP Chris Young- $13M/2 .277/.338/.508/.846/ just 142 PAs in 48 games due to injury Trades: Kimbrel- $37M/3 for Margot, Guerra, L Allen & C Asuaje 3.55/ 1.091 WHIP/17 Svs/89% SV% (worst in career)/Injured since July 7th C. Smith- $529K for Wade Miley Injured after just 3 games (o.oo in 2,2 IP) R Elias- $553K for Wade Miley 15.88 ERA in 5.2 IP Pomeranz- $1.35M for Espinoza 7.53 ERA/ 1.674 WHIP in 3 GS'd/ 14.1 IP/ team record 1-2 A Hill- $12M for A Wilkerson & W Rijo .167/.189/.194/.384 in 36 PAs and 10 games (3-15 vs LHP) B Zeigler- $5.5M for L Basabe & J Almonte 1.23/ 0.818 WHIP/ 7.1 IP/ 50% SV% Many of these players have been injured, so it's not really fair to judge DD and Sox management on that, and like I mentioned earlier, these are all small to tiny sample sizes, but to me, only Chris Young has performed well when playing. Seeing how many here judge Buch for only playing a half season, I guess many here would say even Young has been a bust so far. I'm still optimistic about the players on this list. I wasn't against these trades and signings out of disrespect for these players accomplishments or talents, so I'm not going to pretend I predicted their struggles- far from it, but the high cost of these players- some financial, some in return packages in trade, and some in both- will be felt for years to come, while the immediate gain and shorter-term upgrades have not materialized SO FAR. I still think this team is a legitimate contender as is (assuming Kimbrell, Uehara and Young return in form), but we have to face the fact that our recent moves have not gone too well up to this point in time. I hope when we revisit these moves years from now, there will be a much brighter conclusion.

Although I wouldn't agree, one could argue he "wasn't meant for the bright spotlight in Boston".

Just chillin' and you?