jung

I would have to go with Yaz 67...probably few that remember it but Yaz carried the Sox on his back both in the field and at the plate in the regular season and in the post season making totally ridiculous plays from left field, some of them from the seat of his pants. That to me is what distinguishes that Yaz year from the others being mentioned. I can't think of anybody else that carried the team both in the field and at the plate to the degree that Yaz did in 67. Taking into account as well that his contributions got them all the way to the WS. Ortiz had great years and outrageous post seasons but I can't give it to him knowing Yaz got it done in all around fashion. I think it was Dick Williams that called it the greatest single season he had ever seen for a ballplayer.

That is a lotta' change for a pitcher to go through ...surgery.....lost all that weight....(may or may not be a good thing). We all agree that it will be a matter of luck as much as anything for Lackey this first year back. The cards sure seem stacked against him.

Heck Red Sox pitchers have to lose weight in the off season so that they are ready for the tonnage they are going to put on under the watchful eyes of the Sox conditioning coaches and various and sundry other Sox entities. I think I have finally concluded that the Sox conditioning coaches are actually all chefs from various local restaurants, brought in by management to treat the players in the style to which they have grown accustomed.

Well you could look at the FO PR job on Lackey as further evidence that they are not bringing anybody else in. What we got is what we got I think.

The will to play the kind of baseball we want to see this team play has to come from the players or has to be shepherded by a player. Unfortunately the only guy that could do it of this group is Pedey and he is just not that sort of leader....he just is not. If anything Pedey regrets having stuck himself in the middle of the whole Youk mess. However the way he handled that just points to his inability to shoulder the load of team leader in that sense. The best we can expect from Pedey in that regard would be that his example has an impact. It just has never worked out that way with this team though. Ortiz can't and probably won't. How can a guy that does not take the field to play defense with his mates be the guy....sorry just won't happen. He can howl about this "being his clubhouse" till hell freezes over....and frankly if it was his clubhouse I don't see that he has much to be proud of. I have been disappointed especially in the way baseball is being played in the AL these days. Seems like there is very little of a unified, cohesive offensive effort to be identified. They can get by with that playing each other and it really does not seem to be relevant during inter-league play. However get to something like a seven game series and it almost looked juvenile compared to the kind of unified offensive effort that the Giants put up.

Like I said in earlier posts Lackey has already proven to me that he will take the ball under any circumstances, pitch as hard as he can, and stay out there until somebody goes to get him. In fact he will likely be dragged from the mound kicking and screaming regardless. I have been critical of Lackey for the way he seems to visibly dis his teammates while he is on the mound but it is hard for me to criticize him outside of that. If you want to criticize somebody that deserves it, criticize the front office that left this team so lacking in pitching that Lackey had to go out there like that every 5th day. The guy does seem to be something of a big clod. If he thinks being caught in uniform with a beer in each hand while he is not playing and the team is going in the tank is particularly endearing to fans, thing again ya' big lummox. I don't know. Lackey must have found being around the team to be somewhat therapeutic in some way. Hey you know how it is here. If he pitches well all will be forgiven. If he does not, we will likely all rip him to shreds.

Why 90 to 69... Well, while we have tossed around the make up of the team that the Sox finished the season with it is surely true that the end season team would have been lucky to win 69 in a complete season. I would have to think that end season mess was worth five games easy. The starting pitching has surely been deteriorating for the past couple seasons. I suspect that issues with the starting pitching was the largest single contributor to the team's win/lose record differences. I would say second to that, the degree to which the team became unbalanced with to much payroll going into to few bodies was the second largest contributor to the change in win/loss record. It was no longer a team that played together, no longer a team with complimentary parts, no longer had enough money sunk into guys that could even play decently when the guys taking down the big money fell victim to injury and a number of them simply did not play that well. While I don't think any of the other issues that are specific to the Sox rises to the level of honorable mention with regard to the Sox changes in win/loss record I do think there is one other element that is more general....just as the Sox were running into issues a number of AL teams were improving. The gap narrowed between the haves and have nots and over a 162 game season there were fewer pushovers out there for the Sox to steamroll. Anyway I think those three issues are in the main responsible for the change in Sox win/loss record.

To small a sample size.....I'm sorry but I just don't see that one. I agree with Pal. Thankfully I think the Sox have seen enough and will move Salty.

The injury issue to me is as scary as it has ever been. My mantra on the everyday player injury issue last year was that any combination of two out the following three players would make it impossible for the Sox to maintain their lofty offensive numbers.....Ortiz, WMB and Pedey....in other words for my money any combination of two out three of those guys out and on the DL for any length of time was going to kill that team. But at least in my view of it, it took combinations of key players going down to really have an impact. Any combination of one player will be impossible for this team to replace AND that one player happens to be the most vulnerable of the lot....obviously....Ortiz. Add to that, the second most vulnerable player is likely the second most critical to this lineup.....Napoli. So this year while I think their injury prospects look different they appear to me to be no less scary and may in fact be more scary. If you want to go deeper than that....in everyday players we have Pedey....who has to be in your top 5 of any group of everyday players playing for anybody as far as how hard he plays is concerned. However I argued last year and I think it is now proven, Pedey cannot play and produce at his normal rate when he is hurt...he is not Superman....I have always bristled at the argument that he was mainly because of how unfair it was to him. None the less, he will surely play as hard as ever this year and his performance will likely suffer if he is hurt. But lets face it....we are smart enough on this board to know what this season is going to boil down to. Not peaching doom on that score but it does not necessarily inspire confidence either.

I know this is going to send shivers down some peoples's spines but here goes. For me the numbers are meaningless compared to what I can see with my own eyes. If I see that a catcher has horrible numbers but can't get enough time watching him to make a judgement I might say something like "so and so's numbers are horrible" as opposed to saying that "so and so is horrible". Obviously you can't see everybody play and you can't usually see enough of a particular player's play to get a large enough "with your own two eyes" sampling. All by way of saying that Salty having better numbers with two guys and worse three and sort of OK with two or whatever means very little to me. The fact that his numbers are mixed is really pretty consistent with the view that you really need to see the player play to draw any conclusions that mean anything. For my money this whole numbers issue has gotten entirely out of control when it comes to its practical application. They are great fun for fantasy baseball leagues but from a practical aspect should best be used by professional baseball people as pointers pointing them to people they should want to see play. I think it will be a bad day for baseball if they throw in the towel entirely and don't trust what their own eyes are telling them and instead trust only in a set of numbers without knowing how those numbers are being compiled. While I am stretching it a bit in using this to make my point, we often don't think much of a player's numbers once we find out that he has been juicing in order to achieve those numbers. For me as I have oft stated here, Salty is just awful both in the way he handles his duties as a battery mate and the way he handles his defensive responsibilities as a catcher based on what I can see with my own two eyes. I don't think he can improve very much more than he has either. That said I was posting all last year that IMO he had made a marked improvement in his throwing to the point were he actually could occasionally uncork a really good throw now and again. Even there through I thought Salty went from a totally useless thrower to "I can at least manage to hold down my lunch watching him throw sometimes" status. If I had to guess, maybe Tek would have some luck assisting Salty if he concentrated on the mental aspect of what a catcher should be trying to accomplish. I just don't think Salty as the physical skills to improve much of ths stuff that makes you roll your eyes when you see it. For my money what improved Salty's throwing was that he started to throw the ball with a rhythm. Throwing just seemed like one more thing that was just going to fast for Salty. He actually did occasionally exhibit signs of throwing with a rhythm and that seemed to make a huge difference. To me it indicated that he has a strong throwing arm as some of the throws he made last year were insanely good throws.....just monster throws. On balance though to me he struggles even to maintain marginal status as a thrower and virtually everyplace else he is just pitifully bad.

Tek was great at handling pitchers and game prep. He was average to tolerable as a defensive catcher for a period but as he aged he went from tolerable to "what was that" status. His throwing really tanked as he aged.

I actually wonder about that. I don't think there is a doubt in my mind about Dempster being better than Frankie. But is he better than Buch, who was in the middle last year? I sure hope not. Buch better be better than Dempster. Is he better than Felix? I think we would hope that Felix is on a path to be slightly better than Dempster this year. Is he better than Lackey? As much as I would hope Buch is better than Ryan, I don't know what to hope here. I would think that Lackey being better then Ryan would be a good thing. I do think he is an improvement when you consider that Frankie would likely be the 5 were it not for Ryan.

And this is why I don't trust anything coming out of Yawkey way about Ortiz. First Kalish was going to miss ST...now he is out for 6 months....before long he will be gone again for the year. This has become all to familiar as far as the Sox and announcements regarding injuries is concerned...especially when there are tickets to be sold!

Don't let BC know that WMB has a cannon. Before you know it we will hear that "WMB always wanted to be a pitcher" and " we plan on inserting him into the 5 hole and see how it goes"!

One more stinkin' lousy gamble guy would have been worth it. Maybe for a lousy $1m they could have caught lightning in a bottle with somebody....maybe not but it would have been worth it to take that shot...now they got what they got and thats probably that.

Bell I think it will take a miracle for Dempster to pull off 190 at 4.6 Maybe he can get them to take all three swings at one pitch....thought only Daffy Duck had that pitch but with luck maybe Dempster can perfect it. But like I have said in a few posts, the junkers often had uncanny success last year against the AL East's free swinging beasts almost regardless of where they played. Jurjens ate us alive last year and at a point when we actually still had a lineup for example. In fairness I don't remember him being below 90 with his FB last year either. If anything he might be getting a little to close to the hairy edge on the delta between the FB and the breaking stuff. Wish he had a heavier sinker than I remember

Throwing 80's....maybe he can get a little slower...thatl' fool em':blink:

"crafty veteren" = Cook with no hair

There is no question in my mind that Farrell would have to be dead and to stupid to fall over if he did not set some early season goals and standards. For two seasons in a row the Sox started the season with the usual almost fan like attitude of "hey its early...we got 162 of these things to play. Lets just ease into this thing." Ya'...they just eased into it alright. That is in part why I think that unless Dempster were to out-pitch Lester something fierce in ST, Lester will be the opening day pitcher with Buch to follow. Even if Dempster did out-pitch Lester in ST, I am inclined to think Lester is still the opening day starter. Baseball is a game of starts and finishes. Starts and finishes of games, of series of months of half seasons...it just goes on and on like that. Unfortunately as much as Tito and V were different, it seemed like they approached the idea of starts and finishes similarly. Did they want to win the first month of the season instead of the first series of the season...the first half of the season instead of the first series of the season? I don't know. However I am willing to bet that Farrell will want to win the first game of the season...the first series of the season....I think he will approach the season much like the Pats approach their season...in sixteen bites...not looking past the next bite. He will likely modulate the gas pedal because it is a 162 game season. But I don't expect him to start the season feathering the gas pedal.

All of my ambivalence about Lester as a #1 aside, Lester is the opening day starter for this team. The very season hinges in large part on what Lester and Buch do not on what Dempster does. Whatever anybody thinks of the Sox chances this year, they are going to have to climb on Lester and Buch's backs. The Sox will go as far as they take them. If Dempster is the opening day pitcher what the hell kind of a message is that to send the team. Climb on Dempster back!!!....you can't be serious. In fact it would not surprise me one bit if Farrell put it to both of those guys just that way cause treating them with kid gloves at this point makes no sense. They are pros. They are experienced. It is time for somebody to say to those two guys that they have got to take the weight. If they crumble, they crumble. But with all due respect to both of them....this is their time. No hiding under Beckett's skirts this time around. In fact I would think it would be a tremendous boost to both of them if Farrell, a guy they both have great respect for took them aside and said, "Boys you have got to take me home." Either they will respond or they will fold like a couple of cheap suits. I don't think there will be a middle ground if Farrell sets that sort of tone with them.

I would be willing to bet that Lackey would have to be total suckage to get boosted from the rotation. He could still be pretty terrible and not be total suckage. The thing is you have to think GM's would cut him some slack on a sucky first half and you would have to think that the Sox know that. So even if he was not pitching all that good in the first half, if he got his bearings at all, even if at the end of the first half, you would have to think he would have some attraction for a team making a run looking for a pitcher and could bring back a decent return in prospects. So again, I would think that unless he was total suckage, the Sox would hang with him and hope to get a return out of him in a pre-trade deadline transaction even if they had to hold their nose doing it. Lackey may do a pretty good job. I don't know if it is necessarily a good thing but I think he will take the ball as often as the Sox want to give it to him in 2013 and he will pitch as good and as long as he can every time he takes the ball.

And I don't see any chance unless the whole team goes down in a plane crash of seeing any of the B's up here with the possible exception of one in the September call ups. No..... If Ells goes down, Victorino will move to center and we will be treated to game after game of Daniel Nava. It will get to the point where we welcome him about the way we welcomed Mc-dime and I like Nava.

So he is not 100% in December and but will be by spring training. I would suggest that his Achilles will never be 100% again and that all you have to do to blow out an Achilles is run. Nobody has to hit you ala' football or anything and Achilles injuries in football rarely have anything to do with contact....they are injuries that occur while running. All you have to do is run. So unless they plan on carting him around the bases in a wheelchair he will be very much in danger of blowing that thing out and that is the dif between him and some of the other guys around the league you might want to talk about. Some have had knees and subsequent knee surgeries, some have had this and that. I don't see anybody as important to their offense as Ortiz is to the Red Sox offense that will be on ice as thin as Ortiz will be on. Just as a reminder....how did he reinjure it last year.....running the bases.

But are there that many teams in the AL living on such a thin wire as the Sox are. We spend a lotta' time talking about the rotation and rightfully so. So lets talk about this vaunted offense. For example....take Ortiz who is known to have issues before the first pitch is thrown this year out of this lineup and where are they? We just got through almost the entirety of the pro football season so some of what happened there should be fresh in our minds. A number of guys that went down with Achilles related injuries in this year's NFL season were guys with known Achilles issues and the thing finally just blew up on them. There are a couple guys that will be in this Red Sox lineup that might go down and it won't be huge big deal. But not many and without question the most important of them from the offensive perspective is Ortiz and yet in truth he is damaged goods. His Achilles is not getting better particularly at his age. It will be an injury that he survives this season or he does not. If he does not, there is nobody that fills that hole in this lineup. If anything the Sox have more of that going on this year than they had last year. Do the Sox really have anybody that would come close to replacing Napoli's bat or Pedey's for any length of time. I would say that Ells and maybe, MAYBE WMB are the only guys that we can say we have some confidence can be replaced. But....you are going to replace Ells with somebody that is already slated for the lineup. So you move Victorino to center and guess what...now that Kalish is in trouble you are staring Danial Nava in the face again. I no longer know what to think about Kalish. Talk about a walking Mash unit....good God! But you don't have to get farther into the discussion that Ortiz to be in trouble and clearly he will enter the season in a very fragile state.

Well I am maybe more critical of Salty than anybody here or at least as critical as anybody here. However I commented several times last year that the one place that Salty seemed to make some headway was his throwing. So I would have to say that Tuck had a positive impact there. Was Salty a great thrower last year???? No he wasn't but he at least he went from a totally awful thrower to somebody that occasionally made a pretty decent throw down to second. It was the one thing that Salty started doing that year that actually looked like it had some rhythm back there. All to often just about everything Salty does looks like the game is just going to fast for him. He boots a ball that bounces off his shins and he turning here, turning there, turning 360's and the ball is right at his feet. So I for one would not say Tuck had no impact.