Dojji

The problem with that argument Elktonnik, is that even if Pablo has the same flaws only worse, that doesn't mean that Shaw isn't a flawed potential 3Bman. My opinion is that Shaw isn't so much a solution, as fact that we can't do better than Shaw defensively at 3b is a problem. if I was DD I would be looking to find some way to upgrade our depth at 3B.

The timing for pablo is incredibly bad. It looks very much like our starting 3B is Travis Shaw, at least to start the year.

I'm glad we have Shaw too, he looks like a great guy to come off the bench and back up third base. I hope he proves he can play full time at third base if needed. This injury by Pablo couldn't come at a worse time for him given the competition for a job so it very much looks like Shaw may break camp as our third baseman. Which I'm a bit nervous about due to Shaw's overall lack of reps at third in the last few years and concerns about his athleticism at the position, but hey, it might be OK -- and it's not like his competition doesn't also have issues with athletics and mobility. If I was DD though, I'd be laying the groundwork for an emergency deal for a veteran 3B just in case.

I'm concerned that we may be counting on Shaw for too much. The last thing we need is for him to be given the job, come off to a slow start and need to go back to Sandoval. Whether or not Shaw as a 3b in college he hasn't had significant reps at the position in half a decade, and we'd be putting him back at that position, full time, at the highest level of the sport. There's a risk here that I wish people were recognizing. I don't think it's a huge risk, but I wonder how much of this rush to put Shaw on the job is because of faith in Shaw, and how much is because of dislike of Sandoval. If we didn't hate our incumbent 3B the risks involved in running with Shaw would be making a lot more people nervous right now.

This is ultimately beside the point, since you're not disputing the fact that Koji is currently in camp and healthy, it's not up to either of us who closes and who sets up, and frankly the question is academic since A: they're both among the top relievers in the league, and B: due to Koji's age and health they may well both wind up closing at least a few games. I do think the incumbent gets first crack at the job however. Either way, if both Uehara and Kimbrel are in the bullpen on opening day, making the claim that Carson Smith would be the setup man over Uehara is a bold statement. Either Uehara or Kimbrel are going to close and the other one is going to set up. Either way the workload is probably going to be stacked in favor of Kimbrel getting more innings, which is actually an argument in favor of Uehara closing and making 1 inning saves while Kimbrel does all the stretch work (inning-plus and multi-inning) that setup pitchers sometimes need to do. We're actually in a rare situation right now, we theoretically have enough good arms to do all the jobs you need a good arm for -- closer, setup, and spot relief in earlier situations, and if we can count on Tazawa and Smith down the stretch we'll even have redundancy. And we have a decent stable of young starters we can call on for long relief appearances if needed. I could wish our infield D was better so we were not so dependent on power arms to get us through, but we're not really in a bad place with the pen at least on paper.

My impression is that Koji is in camp and healthy. Is that not correct? I've had health issues recently and haven't been able to follow along as much as i'd like and may have missed something, so if I've got it wrong, I've got it wrong, but that's my impression If Koji is healthy, I don't see why they wouldn't give him the ball to close at least initially, he's done a fine job so far when he has been in the field. When he can take the field there is no doubt at all about Koji's ability to get hitters out, that's never been his problem, if healthy, he's as good as Kimbrel and I don't see why it's such a slam dunk that the youngster would dislodge him.

Craig Kimbrel is going into the season as t he setup man with Koji as the nominal closer. I think it's obvious that that plan looks like it may need to be adjusted as the season rolls on since Koji's 41 and was a bit fragile at the best of times, but Smith was, at most, the 7th inning guy on opening day. And let's not jump the the whole "oh he clearly needs TJS and is gone for the season" train right away. That's possible. It's also possible this is just a bogstandard arm strain that will keep him out a few weeks. No need to overreact, unless your name is Jacksonianmarch then there's always a need to overreact.

And if you're not satisfied with how well he meets that obligation now, why do you think you'll be satisfied with how he does it at any other time?

Yes, I'm not surprised by a problem with popups, it probably has to do with seeing the ball coming off the bat from a new position, which changes the eye angle and makes it more difficult to read a play off the bat. it's a problem I expect to see him learn how to cope with eventually.

Do you really think that if Sandoval isn't in a position to take the job in April, he'll be in a position to take it in June after months of sitting on the bench?

Papi could play a game or two at first base even at his age, and he probably will during interleague games, but a younger man is required to carry the majority of play at that position as you know. Papi's got the skills to play a decent 1B, but his lower body can't stand the strain of doing it regularly anymore..

Shaw hit over his head in 2015, no doubt about it. He should hit well enough to be a decent roleplayer. Emphasis on "roleplayer."

And you cannot pretend that Pablo being bad makes Shaw good. Shaw is not the antiPablo as much as half this forum is DESPERATE for him to be. It is entirely possible for both of these players to fail miserably!

Pitches brilliantly for 1 last season then is gone forever? I hope not.

it is an overachievement, and the smart money is on a regression to the mean this year whether he plays a starting role or not. I would put him in the .750 OPS range this year -- still pretty solid, but not the all star level performance he put up the last half of last season.

Can we throw the brakes just a little bit on the Shaw hype? I agree he's hitting well this Spring and hit well last fall, but I think it's a fallacy to pretend he's going to solve all the problems at third base. One of the problems with a player like Sandoval who the fans have no faith in, is that it's easy to fall into the trap of ignoring the faults in the guy who is slated to replace the ones you don't like. Travis Shaw had been groomed as a 1b prospect before this year, he has *very little experience at third base at any level.* Through his career in the minors Shaw averaged less than 30 games a year at that position. He has played more than three times as many games in the minors at first than at third. Before last year third base was largely viewed as a position he should play to advance his athleticism before his move to first base. it's not an exaggeration to say that any plan to keep Shaw at third base as more than a show-me or bench role originated this Spring. It has never been his full time position -- EVER. We have no idea how well Shaw will stand the rigors of third base physically, and whether his body can hold up to the strain of every day at the most athletic corner position. That's a test Kevin Youkilis, who had far more experience at 3B both in the minors and in the majors, and was an excellent part time third basemen failed when the team tried to stretch him out to fulltime 3B. We have no idea how good he will be defensively if he plays 3B every day, or if he can even be trusted to do so. We also have no idea whether the strain of playing 3b every day might impact his bat. None of this do we know, and all of these are very important questions. I think it would be far far better if Pablo turned out to be adequate at the position on both sides of the ball, and Shaw remained in the bench role he's ideally suited for, able to spot someone part time at 3B, part time at 1B, and part time at other positions. We know he can handle that. He has never, not even in the minors, proven he can handle more than that.

For a power pitcher it's particularly bad too. I know we weren't counting on Smith particularly strongly, but he was supposed to be a significant piece, and now we have no idea what we'll get.

Hi, you must be new here. Welcome to Talksox.

No, we overpaid for Sandoval and Porcello. We *paid* for Kimbrel, just like Philidelphia paid for Papelbon. Not every high cost transaction is an overpay, nor is every situation in which we didn't buy low "overpay." "Costly" and "overpay" are not synonyms, some things are worth a high price. We were willing to fork out what it cost for Kimbrel because he is a premium value commodity and the price was up due to the way the last World Series fell out. Sometimes a big market team needs to be willing to pay value for value, and that's alright. by any sandard in which Kimbrel was an overpay, every baseball player in the league is overpaid.

He's a good bench player, and he'll probably get chances. He just hasn't gotten enough of them yet for me to be fully comfortable with him as my starting 3B in a year when I want to compete.

And has a bum shoulder and can't make the throws anymore.

Except at second base, we have Betts, who's out of practice but does have big league experience at second base and can come up to speed if necessary. Between Pedroia, Holt, and Betts, that's 3 layers of depth. That's good enough. If we dismiss Sandoval, you're pretty much only 2 layers deep at third base, and with no help from the minors.

And who's doing all the other things Holt does, if Holt is tied down at third base? Holt also isn't likely to hit like a starting 3B -- he's good for a backup, very good in fact, but Holt is not a starter. If you panic give up on Sandoval out of hand you're putting unreasonable pressure on both Shaw and Holt, and stressing our depth, when both may be unnecessary. Stay the course for a few weeks on Sandoval and evaluate from there. That's all Kimmi and I are saying.

I agree to an extent, but sunk cost fallacy aside we're stuck with this guy, it makes more sense to see what we can get out of him than it does to simply dismiss whatever asset we may have in sandoval outright. As I said, we actually have very little depth at third base right now, our entire depth at 3b consists of players who could be moved to third base, including Shaw who was considered mostly a 1B prospect at the big league level until we got desperate, as well as possibly guys like Moncada or Swihart that could, one assumes, learn on the job. That's not fantastic depth to be dismissing a veteran starting player after a single poor year. So it's not a financial reason so much as good asset and depth management, to see what we have with Sandoval, remove the emotions of last year from the equation and give him a fair chance, before making him the world's most expensive bench player, than it does to panic (and that's what this is, mindless, unreasoning, emotional PANIC) and move on to plan B without even trying plan A under the lights.

I think the big issue right now with simply dismissing Pablo is that after Shaw, we really have exceedingly limited depth at the third base position. If you don't give Pablo a fair chance, you're essentially putting the season up on a pass/fail judgment based on whether or not Shaw is what he looked like last year and this Spring. Which he might be, but he also might not. If Pablo gets a chance and fails, Shaw is there to back up and provide depth, but if Shaw is your go to guy on day 1 and you have no faith at all in Sandoval, then you have no depth at third base and your only remaining failsafe at the position is Holt.