Six4Three

OF COURSE I CAN COMPARE THEIR PRODUCTION USING OTHER PLAYERS AS VARIABLES. You don't think A-Gon hittng behind Pedroia has SOMETHING to do with how many runs he's scored? Or that Scutaro/Drew/Varitek has something to do with how few runs CC has scored? (Both players have 31 runs). You, ORS, and his Holy Stats all put too much value on OBP and too little on speed. How clear can I be on this? How many times does this have to be pointed out to you? What those values in his post do NOT differentiate is what the average player does when he gets on base and what the fastest players do when on base. The fact that CC has matched Pedroia's run total from way down in the order with a much lower OBP should say it all. Those aren't slouches hitting behind Pedoia and the bottom of the order aren't exactly a murderers' row. OBP doesn't win games, runs do, in whatever method they are achieved.

Upton and Shields will both be traded before 2012 and I think Upton will be dealt this season. The Rays are long on outfielders and his contract will be about 20% of their 2012 payroll. You can justify that for a stud pitcher but not for Upton. I don't blame any team with extra cash for betting on Upton though as he's capable, at times, of being a true 5-tool player. The Rays tend not to lose on trade deals so I'm sure they're just waiting for the right offer. The Nats don't appear to especially stingy these days so I'm sure a deal will happen.

Thanks, I know what the definition is, and that the first person to bust out the term is usually losing the argument. The adult equivalent of "I know you are but what am I??" Tell me then, please, what type of player you think Carl Crawford is, if not one of those three admittedly over-simplified models? I've yet to read anything that suggests the majority of people on this forum think he deserves a spot on this roster at all, much less a spot near the top of the order.

TedWilliams 101 said that Crawford needs more plate discipline. SweetChinMusic33 asked why I would consider other players' variables when suggesting where CC or Pedroia should hit in a lineup. (Please folks, take a moment to soak in the absurdity of that comment). Then he/she asked if I had read ORS' post, which I clearly did and disagreed with completely. At least I thought it was clear. Then Emmz said I did read it but didn't understand advanced stats. Clearly not realizing how much most of the people in this post are over-simplifying their favorite players' stats, specifically, Pedroia's OBP. I illustrated this by typing out the only three types of players I've seen acknowledged in this thread. No "straw man" here. From what I've seen on this forum so far though, that term gets thrown around almost as much as the word "sucks". Neither ever has nor ever will win a debate.

If he duplicates his last nine years' lack of plate discipline he's a first ballot hall of famer. Advanced stats? There's nothing more un-advanced than thinking that there are only three types of players: guys who walk, sluggers, and guys who fail at being either of those. What a player can do once on base matters, not just a little, but a lot. Consistent lineups? I bet the Rays had over 100 different lineups last year that included half a dozen guys hitting in the low .200's. A consistent lineup didn't beat out NY and Boston. I don't think people here understand advanced lineups.

Pedroia averages one triple per year which is less than Ortiz. He hits 45-50 doubles by not being fast enough to reach third ten times per season. He's off to a good start SB-wise this year but has just 69 lifetime SB's. The offensive strategy the Red Sox used during their WS years was Manny/Papi hitting about 150 homers between them. Those days are over. How about doing a little more of what has won the AL East two out of the last three years?

One has a speedy Ellsbury in front of him and the other has a base-clogging Ortiz. One can score from first on an A-Gon double while the other gets stranded by Salty. A team with Ells and CC should be double-stealing every couple days. A foreign concept to life-long Red Sox fans I'm sure.

He wasn't signed for his ability to walk. He's not expected to walk more than 30 times per year. He played horribly for the first three weeks and like an all-star for the last six weeks. His average is .297 since April 22 with several game-winning runs and hits. Again, that should have excused him from criticism during that period but for some reason it didn't. Emmz, we're making progress. Let me know when you consider it official that CC is performing up to his contract and we'll be on the same page. I say he's currently doing it, but that's just me.

Precisely why there shouldn't be so much energy spent bashing him. No online message board member has ever made a more informed prediction than Francona and his coaches. Ever. Be happy that the players love him. I post a lot about CC because there are so many threads criticizing him. I realize that he doesn't fit the profile of a typical Red Sox fan-favorite but the heckling should have stopped over six weeks ago.

Sure looks like hating to me. Plenty of people here have said he "sucks" which is ridiculous. I guess that's defined now by how many pitches a batter doesn't take. If the Sox don't make it into the playoffs it will be because they had more key injuries than the Yankees or Rays. Same as last year. If Francona gets run out of town he'll be courted by every other team in the majors. Fans need to show him some support.

No, because fans criticize Francona too much. I'm not exactly sure who the bashers think could do the job better. Hating on Crawford doesn't hurt the team, it just shows how naive the Red Sox Nation is.

So far the fans are hurting the team the most.

At least he's not in the Yankees' lineup. Lot's of those doubles and triples would be homers in Yankee Stadium. As with any expensive Red Sox/Yankee contract, 25% of the money is spent keeping the player off the others' team.

Pedroia's OPB is not high enough to trump Crawford's speed. Maybe when CC is only stealing 20 bases per season you'd have a point but his contract with the Red Sox will be over by then.

You're right on the 3-4-5 guys which is why I said it would never happen. That leaves CC and Pedroia switching spots. Stolen bases -- CC will have 20+ more SB's than Pedroia this year, and ever year the two of them are full time major league ballplayers. Waste of money -- as someone said earlier, if the Sox didn't want to utilize speed they could have saved a ton of money on a slower player with the same or even better offensive numbers. Waste of talent -- Youk, Pedroia, Ortiz, and Ellsbury never have been and never will be better than CC in any athletic activity. Certainly not the game of baseball. You were kidding on that one right? Pedroia's numbers are not more impressive than CC's. Not only that, they're a much smaller sample size lifetime and I believe Pedroia's 2008 year was a fluke. Even this year with CC's horrific start he still has 7 more total bases than Pedroia. The only remaining reason to keep those two where they are is because CC is obviously cool enough to hit wherever and Pedroia would no doubt throw a tantrum. The last thin Tito needs is a 5'7 Tasmanian Devil wrecking the clubhouse and team morale.

Crawford only hit into two double plays last year and was safe by a foot on one of them. Crawford - 58 GDP's in 5597 plate appearances Pedroia --- 56 GDP's in 2709 plate appearances Plus CC steals 2-3x as many bases per season as Pedroia. It's a waste of talent and money to put CC so deep into the order, stacked lineup or not.

CC is about the least the likely player you'll find to hit into a double play. (Far less likely than Pedroia). That reduces the downside of moving everyone down a spot with him in the 2 hole. I doubt it will ever happen but it's not as unsafe a move as old-schoolers might think. Extra steals, double steals, throw-overs, and pitch-outs are the last thing opposing teams will want to deal worry about, especially in the first inning. Yes Pedroia is a great #2 hitter but he's never had Crawford, Ellsbury, Youk, and A-Gon on his team at the same time before. Lastly, the lineup will be shaken up sooner or later by injuries anyway. Problem solved.

Maddon is a poor comparison because he and Tito are cut from the same cloth. Easily the two most player-friendly managers I've ever seen. Maddon doesn't even believe in batting practice. The one difference between them is that the Red Sox players would bleed for Tito and the Rays players are merely enjoying the laid back atmosphere under Maddon. Getting a stacked team of well paid Red Sox vets to be that loyal to a manager is very rare. Any drastic move by the front office or Tito at this stage would be a huge over-reaction. Just as the Yankees' handling of Torre was when he departed. As of this date in the season, I'd still take the current Red Sox manager, team, and record over the current Yankees manager, team, and record. Everybody just be cool. And contrary to popular belief, the Rays roster is not full of #1 draft picks. Or even that many first round picks. The only #1 pick on the team is Price who pitched just 14 innings in their 2008 run. Besides him, just Upton, Longoria and Niemann are active first round picks. The credit to that team goes almost completely to Andrew Friedman for making brilliant trades and well-timed contract extensions. Back to the Red Sox: Tito is the best man for that job and will never be fired.

Unfortunately bad MLB teams don't recycle themselves into contenders on schedule like NFL and NBA teams do. A steady stream of #1 or #2 draft picks won't do a bit of good if the front office does everything else wrong (Pirates). The Rays' best strength is managing contracts and making lopsided trades. When you look at their list of deals from the last four years it's as sweet as watching a triple play. (Not counting Pat Burrell's deal.) In this year's very strong draft they have something like 12 picks in the first two rounds. Crazy. Many won't be signed but that's the case with lot's of high draft picks. They say the Royals have finally amassed an impressive collection of prospects but again, that won't carry a team to the playoffs. They need to also grab a few cheap vets or journeymen on rebound years like the Rays have been doing the last few years. The Red Sox could use some of that insight as well.

Nothing to do with Tito or Ellsbury. Crawford OWNS the Red Sox when it comes to base-stealing. They haven't thrown him out since 2004. He's 62-4 lifetime against Boston, better than any other opponent. He was 35-1 against Varitek. The six steals against Boston in a single game a couple years back is something I don't ever expect to see a baseball player do again. He's also stolen home against Boston a couple times. Now the Sox can breathe a little easier 18 games per year.

Angels fans counted ther chickens before they hatched which is why they're so bitter about CC's deal with Boston. His game is perfectly suited for Anaheim. In the end I think he was sick of his talents going un-noticed by the world and wanted to play on a bigger stage. He's definitely not the greedy A-Rod/Teixiera/Damon type though. He signed an extremely team-friendly deal with the Rays in 2004 who were the game's worst franchise at the time. I hope this becomes a trend of Cliff Lee/Carl Crawford types not running straight to the Bronx come free-agent time. I'm sure it was not lost on CC that he would have hit a few more homers per year playing for the Yankees....or that he'll steal fewer bases per year playing for Boston.

If the Rays lost the game I'm sure it had something to do with Shield's early exit. (edit: Sox won 7-1 with the loss going to Shields. I'll stick with my point though, the Red Sox blew the season during those two games.) Another least favorite Red Sox employee: the man or men who decided not to sign Willie Mays.

The Rays had 0.00% swagger before that series and the Sox were in first place. A month later the Sox were down 5 games to the Rays, a team that should not have even had a winning record that year. Their confidence clearly carried over into the ALCS. All because Coco was mad that Jason Bartlett's leg was in the way during Coco's slide attempt (wtf?), to which he responded by trying to injure Iwamura (not break up a double play) , which resulted in Shields correctly drilling Coco in the hip. Everyone in the stadium knew he was going to get hit and he was lucky he wasn't beaned. The Rays did nothing wrong, Coco did nothing right. Season: lost.