jacksonianmarch

you forgot pettitte.

a long time. But he hasnt been in control for too long. Only a little over a yr. The Tampa faction was the defacto GM and Cashman had no power. That has since changed.

we arent relying on Bruney to close or set up or be the 7th inning man. That is the difference. We arent relying on Britton to close or set up or be the 7th inning man. If we get Medders, we wont be relying on him to close, set up or 7th inning work either. Relying on them as non-rolecentric players will make things better for him. If they earn more PT, then they will get more PT. As for the rest of these guys in the sox pen, one of those middle relievers will be relied upon to close unless MDC is ticketed for the minors (or for another team). One of those guys will be relied upon to setup. One of those guys will be the 7th inning man. Then the rest will be needed to do mop-up, losing situations, etc. And it seems like everyone in that pen is either very green (MDC and Hansen), new to relief (piniero), new to the US (Okajima), or on the decline (Donnelly, Timlin, Romero, and Tavares). Someone will step up and close, that is not the question. The question is, how good will they be and will they cost the sox a shot at a division title.

Pavano, Karstens, and Rasner to start. Then maybe Hughes, Sanchez, Clippard, Ohlendorf, Owings, White if those 3 cannot do it. We have lots of MLB ready talent in our minors, a MLB vet in Pavano and two guys who got their feet wet last yr in Rasner and Karstens.

and Johan on the yankees, PLEASE!!!

His stuff dropped off from his stellar campaign a few yrs ago, but he did have a short, successful stint in the pen last yr. I like the idea as his upside in the pen may have never been reached, but 4 mil guaranteed is way too much for a guy whose only other serious suitor was Pittsburgh. Also, the sox need a closer, and this guy is not that. They already have a pen full of middle relievers and fringe major leaguers, they didnt need another one. You know what they say, throw enough s*** against the wall, something will stick. The sox better hope that wall is like flypaper, and not teflon.

no negotiating window for the dbacks. Take it or leave it is what Cash is conveying.

uh oh. No political debates. I stay away from politics, too much s*** to sift through. Welcome aboard VA. These guys are nice and have treated me well.

I got caught up on the last part of this post, and I never responded to the intent of it. I find the need to rebuild overblown. They dont need to rebuild from a team that won 97 games. What they need to do is to get back to what worked. Look at the rotations from 96-01 and you see a smattering of youth and age. In 96, Pettitte, Cone and Key were their big 3. That is the one year that they got 171 innings worth of pure domination from Mo and Wetteland. And they got 100+ innings of slop work from Mendoza In 97, it was Pettitte, Wells, and Cone while they had quite possibly the best bullpen they ever had. Mo was sub 2, Stanton, Boehringer, and Nelson were sub 3 and Lloyd was at 3.3 while Mendoza ate 130 innings of swing/spot slop. In 98, it was Pettitte, Wells, Duque, Cone and Irabu that were flat out dominant (yes Irabu was good for one yr). Rivera, Holmes and Nelson were fantastic in the pen and Mendoza at 130 innings of slop work again. In 99, duque and cone were the best pitchers, but Clemens and Pettitte ate innings. Rivera, Grimsley, and Stanton were great in the pen and Mendoza at 130 innings of slop work yet again. In 00, Clemens, Pettitte, and El Duque were reliable while Coney spit the bit. Mendoza only was at 65 innings. Rivera had his worst career yr and Nelson was strong. In 01, Clemens, Pettitte, and Mussina were fantastic. Mendoza cracked 100 innings again, Rivera was great and Stanton was very good. In 02, they had 6 solid starters until George dealt for Weaver. Mussina, Wells, Pettitte, El Duque, and Clemens were fantastic. Rivera missed a lot of time, but Stanton, Karsay and Mendoza ate 250 innings of bullpen combined and were fantastic. In 03, the yankees got 842 innings from Clemens, Pettitte, Mussina and Wells. Mariano was fantastic but nobody was there to eat a huge load of innings like Mendoza had been for so long. They relied on guys like Hammond and Osuna who had good numbers, but were horrible in close situations. Karsay was down for the count. This was the beginning of the end. The pen was horribly misshapen, but the slack was picked up by the rotation. In 04, no starter broke 200 innings and no starter (aside from the 15 starts el duque made) was below a 4ERA. Mariano and Gordon were fantastic and Quantrill ate innings, but the pen couldnt bear the weight of the lack of a reliable, durable, effective starter and fell in the choke of the century. Honestly, I have no idea how this team was 3 outs away from the WS. With this pitching, this team shouldnt have made the playoffs. In 05, RJ was the only constant and the only guy above 200IP. Mussina pitched in with 172 innings of reliable but unimpressive work. Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon became household names for a bit. Pavano, Mussina, Brown, Wright and Wang spent significant time on the DL. The bullpen was 2 men deep. In 06, RJ and Wang broke 200IP. Mussina was right there with 197. RJ declined, Mussina surged and Wang became the young ace. Proctor assumed the position that nobody was able to fill since Mendoza signed, but he was doing double duty in a setup role. The pen was better and has promise. The rotation needed an overhaul as the 4 and 5 slots sucked and the 3 was 200IP of crap performance. To get back to the old days, we just need durability out of the rotation and a good bullpen. Every yankee team from 96 to 02 had a rotation with three durable starters for the most part. Not all 3 were fantastic, they slipped to and fro over time, but were not overly dominant. No starter had a sub 3 era since 97, but they took the hill. The bullpen had a slop guy who ate a ton of innings (Mendoza). The bullpen also had at least Mo and a solid setup man. And the offense was good enough to win. Then we turned the page to all offense, only Mo in the pen and a HORRIBLE rotation in 04. Last season's pen and rotation were much improved, but we need more out of our 4 and 5. My long winded, overly drawn out point is that the yankees have recognized their issue. They had nobody to come up to pitch from the minors. They relied on retreads who were not good and paid through the nose for them. So he is now developing his pitching or trading for it, before it gets expensive. Which means, other teams find these guys attractive too. By harnessing a crop of pitching in the minors, he leaves the toughest part of being a baseball GM up to his development staff instead of hoping and praying for a guy coming off a career yr to translate it to NY after signing a contract that sets them up for life and then some.

btw, interesting thought in the bergen record today.

It will be tremendous. The only way to make it less tremendous would be to build an entire bullpen rather than Mo and these other shitbums. A loaded pen will make Mo's departure less painful. A s*** pen and this team will collapse.

2004 was a year that I would have rather had a bullpen full of young arms than one pitcher who couldnt shoulder the load all by himself. Mo will retire some day. Someone will close for us in the future. There will be a difference, no doubt. But if Cash builds a good bullpen soup to nuts, then the loss should not be as shaking as you think. Since Mo has been the closer and since LuGo's dinker fell through in 01, we have neglected bullpen. Mo at the end, s*** in the middle. We can afford to do that with Mariano cause he'll clean up the s***. When Mo goes, he cannot be replaced by one man, but he certainly is not a guy whose retirement will send us to impending doom. Hence, Cashman is building for that day. He has some real solid young arms that are under control for awhile. If we get Medders, that will help too. By the time Mo retires, these kids may be stable enough to hold the middle of the pen while we undoubtedly go out and get a closer, or develop one from within.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070103/SPORTS01/701030371/1108/SPORTS01 sounds like the two pitching prospects are going to be Owings and Ohlendorf. Owings, drafted in 2005 is a 6'5" pitcher with a bulldog mentality. He throws 4 solid pitches, none of them top shelf, but has plus command and control. His fastball is said to sit near 92-93. He was 10-0 last season in AAA and was 16-2 overall between AA and AAA. The big knock on Owings is that he "puts his all into every pitch" so he might be a future reliever. Ohlendorf is a guy who they seem to like over Dustin Nippert. He is a low 90s sinkerballer with pinpoint control and a strong frame. He is a guy who looks to be a mid rotation pitcher who will eat innings. He is a poor man's Chien Ming Wang as his sinker is about 3-5mph slower.

a mouth of an unflushed bronx toilet? WOWZAH. I assume this is without the crack, smack, heroine, or seminal/vaginal fluids on the cover? Just kidding.

I perused the boston globe forum and let me personally apologize for those twitty, bandwagon, pubescent yankee fanbase over there. Punks, all of em. I wanted to sign up and tell em to knock it off, but alas, I decided to watch the football game instead and drink beer.

I thought it was a very classy move by a typically classless guy, especially towards the sox. I truly feel that he was so enraged that he sent out an internal memo to get RJ. Once he got him, and we failed miserably again, I think he finally saw what his meddling hands had done. I still feel that he was never satisfied with the success, if we won 114 games, he wanted 116. If we won 11 of 12 playoff games, he wanted a sweep of all series. His insatiable appetite was fueled by the new bandwagon Yankee fans who wanted to see the long ball rather than a fundamentally sound team 1-9 on the field, in the lockerroom and at the plate. That is Steinbrenners biggest flaw. He sold the soul of his team to have the big name (offensively for the most part). With his soul went the chemistry. The clutch factor. The unbeatable facade that the yankees maintained for a span of 6 years. Only a supreme effort was enough to fell the mighty yankees in 97 and 01. Now, the lowly angels and tigers easily tamed the yankees of the past 2 years. Hence, I think Cashman has been given 100% full control. With steinny's wallet and Cashman's brain, this team can easily become a long term force for years to come, rather than cycle into an unsustainable crash course of big spending on players well past their prime. Now while I say that above, I advocate Clemens signing. Mostly because he still has something left and we will only get him for one season. Long enough for these kids in the minors to get their legs under em and come up or be integral in a trade for a young starter. Now if Big Stein was in office. Zito would be a Yankee for the next 8 yrs. Robby Cano and Chien Ming would be in Florida and Beckett would be a yankee (thank god that didnt happen). Sheff and RJ would still be aging, injured malcontents and our farm system would be shot to s*** as Hughes likely would have been traded for a shmoke and a pancake.

Sorry for the confusion. We don't have many women on this board. Nice to have ya back I guess as I see you joined a yr ago. Why the vacation?

I wouldnt be worried about this team because of the RJ deal. This team is making the playoffs. They will get at least durability from their top 4 and with the pen and the offense, they'll easily make the playoffs. The question is, how will they do in the playoffs. That is my concern. That is not a question that can be answered right now. That all depends on how Pettitte does, if Clemens comes back etc. I am relatively assured that our top 2 can battle with any other team's top 2. After that, in a playoff series, we'll see.

granted, far from a certainty. But they are better than sending out AAAA retreads. At least if they suck, they are getting a learning experience rather than just sucking as usual.

hey there kind sir, welcome to talksox. Those daggone blue hairs do suck. From the sounds of it, Mr C. wants to, how do you say it, ass-rape them with a thorncocked dildo. I think those were his words.