jung

Turn out the lights....the party's over. Well I have a sneaking suspicion that if there was any thoughts of buying at the deadline, that is going down the drain quickly.

I posted in one of the pitching threads that Dana should go. This staff has turned into the same sludge that pitches around the rest of MLB, particularly in the AL. Yea there are reasons for that beyond the pitching coach but Dana has done NOTHING to stem the tide of pitching sludge from infecting the Sox staff as well. The only real dif is that we are paying a fortune for our pitching sludge regardless of our bargain basement pen.

Taylor is one of the few pitchers we have, starter or reliever that actually throws inside. Where the heck did they get him. Makes you wonder if they grew him in a test tube.

About time they got to waggles-whatever. If you are going to throw breakers on the outer half you better be throwing something hard just off the black inside and waggles was doing none of that. No wonder he didn't want to throw anything at the end. He had nothing to throw.

Ah yes...the starter death march to 100 in 5 is obviously on track no matter which one of these guys wearing Red Sox starts. Amazingly, Erod.....EROD for God sake seems to be the only starter that can beat the death march this year.

All I can say is thank God the Jays optioned Tellez so they could showcase some of their minor leaguers for trade purposes.

Let the rationalizations begin: - Its the catchers - Its the new uni - Its the s*** team he is pitching to - - - Feel free to fill in a few more

Hitting stats year to year are now basically out the window as there are too many dynamics changing in baseball primarily due to MLB manipulating the game and the very baseball itself. MLB has basically run through more pitching arms than you can shake a stick at in its velocity driven madness and thus pitchers have started a little mini revolt of their own now throwing more off speed and breaking stuff than anybody ever heard about. Breaking stuff can be hard on the arm as well. But if you do not have the physical makeup or the technique to throw hard yet insist on trying, its the fastest way to wear out an arm there is. Some of the throwing motions of many of today's hard throwers must surely have the hard throwers of the past either turning in their graves or laughing their asses off. Chris Sale comes to mind as not having what you would think is a sustainable motion for throwing high velo hard stuff over time. Neither Mookie nor JD hit breaking stuff particularly well just as examples of what can happen to hitters confronting an avalanche of additional breaking pitches and having their stats suffer for it. Then the rocket ship baseball has not helped real power hitters all that much because they don't award more runs for "how far" you hit it. Over the fence nets you a single HR added to your total for the year. However, the weaker hitters have benefited greatly from the rocket ship. Virtually anybody that could swing a bat at all was at 13+ HR's by the ASG, laughable totals. Hence, we are on track for more HR's than ever and while the current pace has MLB hitting 6,700+ HR's this year, fully 700 more HR's than the previous high water mark of 6,105 set in 2017 now that we are in hitting season weather-wise I am inclined to think they will exceed any other year by more than 800 HR's most of them from guys that should not be generating big HR totals. On top of that nothing including the Steroid era is going to touch the four year total from 2016 (the first of this generation of rocket ship baseball) to 2019 (the new and even hotter rocket ship). Result of all this nonsense entirely catalyzed by MLB manipulation: We have mass quantities of "pitchers" filling out MLB unis and rosters that never should have seen the inside of a MLB clubhouse and we have stats like "quality starts" and we have "Openers" and we have starters that can barely go 5 innings before they hit the 100 pitch mark and armies of relief pitchers. We have big HR and K totals since pitchers cannot throw with command and confidence and hitters are swinging out of their shoelaces at everything.

You neglected the baseball. Who bought the company that makes the baseballs, kept supercharging them 3 out of the last 4 years denying it the entire time? Who changed that...the stat guys? As for the shift...where the shift was going was as plain as the nose on my face. Letting it ride from 300 a year to 8,000+ shifts per year and then having the unmitigated gall to pay lip service to it is a bit more than I can take, tolerate or rationalize. Sorry...just won't wash. I don't remember anybody forcing MLB to spin up its propaganda machine to push power baseball either yet that is clearly what they did. I understand why MLB or really Manfred did it. I even understand the historical context of why he did it. Manfred has completely misread the historical context that drove him to this nonsense as well intentioned as he thinks he might be. The result is this painfully boring game of HR's, K's, BB's, guys trotting around the bases or trudging back to the dugout and an army of computer geeks with spread sheets that have no earthly idea what they are looking at. Worse than that, ITS NOT WORKING. MLB continues to lose popularity in this country. I honestly don't know what they think they are going to do when my generation starts pushing up daisies in earnest. In fact, Manfred just sold the stat geeks down the river. One of the most popular pastimes for stat geeks is comparing the year to year or career to seasonal stats for a player. How are you going to do that in the era of the ever changing rocket ship baseball. What are they going to do....kid themselves that those most cherished and most discussed player stats are meaningful when the baseball itself is in constant flux?

Agreed completely, as long as you're implying that location is command.....Does make you ask yourself why in Gods name, MLB demanded velocity from pitchers. I already know the answer to that one. Knowing the answer does not make the insanity MLB forced on its game and its players any more palatable.

I just can't blame the pitchers entirely for this mess. As a group they tried to give MLB what it said it wanted....VeLOCITY. Never mind if you have the body type for it or the technique for it or even the arm for it...just give it to us. Well they did....for as long as they could. MLB has just burned through too many arms which is a direct consequence of trying to make this a one dimensional game of power from the mound and the batters box. We used to have a much wider spectrum of pitchers by type all of them able to learn their craft over time. The guys that were flamethrowers were because they could be. They didn't have to push it though as a group their pitching technique was so much better than what we see passing for MLB pitching today. I think I sense a slight turn back to the way it was out of necessity more than anything. Look what burning through all these arms has wrought. They have just worn these guys out if not forced them into outright injury and trying to backfill have brought utter trash up from the minor leagues, guys that have been brought up too soon or more likely never would have made it up at all in the past. Its easy to criticize Rick but remember, he turned himself into a power pitcher of sorts, won a Cy Young and that lasted all of 1 year. Sale has been throwing hard with a very odd motion his entire career. But blame MLB as much as you want to blame the pitcher himself and remember, they just gave MLB what it demanded of them.

He can;t throw his slider effectively. That is the most pressing concern and the thing that is exposing everything else that is at issue for him. Losing velo was bound to happen. There was nothing inevitable about losing the command of his Slider and the confidence in it. But that is what has happened. Its no accident that Sales stints now all end in an avalanche of FB's until Cora comes out and rescues him.

1. Eric Sogard (L) DH 2. Freddy Galvis (S) SS 3. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. ® LF 4. Cavan Biggio (L) 2B 5. Randal Grichuk ® CF 6. Justin Smoak (S) 1B 7. Danny Jansen ® C 8. Billy McKinney (L) RF 9. Brandon Drury ® 3B 1. Mookie Betts ® RF 2. Rafael Devers (L) 3B 3. Xander Bogaerts ® SS 4. J.D. Martinez ® DH 5. Andrew Benintendi (L) LF 6. Michael Chavis ® 1B 7. Jackie Bradley Jr. (L) CF 8. Sandy Leon (S) C 9. Brock Holt (L) 2B

Ostensibly to "look" at some of their minor league talent in a ML uni (re: see if somebody takes a trade deadline sniff at some of these guys). If i were a Jays fan I would be looking to cash out my tickets for this BS.

Exactamento!!! But you are making my "these pitchers suck" argument which is smattered throughout the forum probably much to the distress of some forum members. What do we really think stats like "quality starts" and "Openers" and Starters unable to go more than 5 innings without running up a triple digits pitch counts are GOOD for baseball? While I would contend that pitching has been going downhill and taking the entire game down with it for about twenty years, the last ten years of abuse have been most pronounced and the last 5 years (since the first rocket ship baseball of this generation and on to new super rocket ship) have been a complete disaster. This fixation on power baseball which has included power pitching is destroying the MLB game and everything underneath it which is of course EVERYTHING. All we have heard from the MLB propaganda machine about pitching has been velo, Velo, VELO. So pitchers gave them what they wanted, whether they had the talent to do it, the physical makeup to do it or the technique to do it without shortening their careers to something like a heartbeat. Now we have pitchers that would never have gotten out of AAA ball in the past filling MLB unis, teams looking anywhere for anybody that even looks like he knows how to grip a baseball and pitchers dropping to injury like flies AND THEN in 2016 comes the first of the rocket ship balls, the very last thing pitchers, the true pumping heart of baseball needed. So yea, you have seven and eight deep BUMS, laughing stocks filling these MLB pens and starters that hit 100 pitches in 5 innings, nibbling at the edges, without the command or the confidence in their pitches to actually PITCH! Oh but wait, MLB thinks this is EXCITING baseball or at least that is what their propaganda machine pumps out daily. The Pitchers are leading their own revolution though. They are throwing more and more breaking balls and befuddling the HR lunatic binging hitters that MLB has instigated. "Go ahead big guy, cut from your shoelaces at that thing. How did that taste?" I hope that trend continues and I hope it keeps Manfred up at night. If only pitchers could once again command their pitches good enough to actually throw inside this thing might just be salvageable. Worth noting for those interested that if MLB was not already in trouble Manfred would never have chosen this course. So whining that there is no issue with the game's popularity is just sticking one's head in the sand. Worse musing that what Manfred is doing is "working" to resolve the issues with the popularity of baseball are even more absurd. THE PROBLEM is that Manfred has no earthly idea what he is doing, well intentioned as it might be. He remembers the Steroid issue rescuing MLB from its demise sure to have fallen on its neck like the executioners ax without realizing what about the Steroid issue worked and why.

I actually don't know how any team can do it. The disease that is this ball manipulation by the administration of MLB now hangs over everything about MLB. For example I would not be looking to built a rotation the same way I would have built it before the rocket ship. Yet, how does anybody including the insiders of a team's baseball ops know if Manfred will continue to manipulate it further in the same direction or go back to the 2016 ball or at least to the 2016 ball when Manfred really won't own up to any of it. It has simply gone too far and I just do not know how one would proceed under these circumstances. IMO, we are seeing the last of any recognizable version of MLB. Its got maybe 10 years of life left in it at this rate IMO.

There are components that appear to go into that decision. They may or may not make sense, but not much in MLB makes any sense any longer: 1) unless the manager thinks that his relief pitcher can get through two innings having to remove him when he gets into a jam means the next guy does not get to come into a clean inning. That next reliever is thus a "fireman" brought in to put out either a brush fire of a real firestorm. There are not many guys left in bullpens that managers think can do that. Most of them are now getting the benefit of coming into a clean inning and are asked to get out of it without damage. 2) The more a RP is used in a single stint, the longer he may have to stay on the shelf before the next time he can be used. Generally it seems the rule is that most of them "AT BEST" can handle two stints on back to back days and then will need a couple days to recoup. 3) is all the other stuff that goes into the decision of who to bring in where, who the opponent batters are and other game specific situations Item 1 seems more of an issue than item 2 as it relates to duration of the relief stint. Frankly there is very little that makes sense to me the way the game is being played today. But that is the best I got.

If I had my choice, I would not have taken a starter from another AL team in hopes that he helps my rotation. With very few exceptions the starters in this league are throwing sludge over here now. There are more likely candidates to help in the NL. That said, I never thought we had a realistic shot at Wheeler without making decisions we appear unwilling or unable to make.

Sell Dana LaVangie for one thing. This entire staff is caught in a time warp of nibblenibblenibble-ville. Either they don't have enough command of their pitches or they don't have enough confidence to throw in the strike zone, particularly with the rocket ship baseball. Its always one or the other and for a number of our starters, its both. We had two Dodger pitchers show us about the only way you can throw as a starter and get your team through a season. You have to have SOMETHING you can throw in the strike zone for a strike, something that if the hitter does not swing is a called strike. Its not one of these stupid flat FB's whether at 93 or 96 but its not one of these breakers constantly thrown in the dirt either. YES, you can get hitters out getting them to chase. My God, the modern hitter looks like a mouse chasing a piece of cheese they are so desperate to swing. But it will take these nibblers about 20 pitches an inning to get three outs. This staff is numbingly similar one to the next: - Sale can no longer throw his Slider. Even when he can throw it, he losses confidence in it in an a nanosecond. Why do you think his stints now end with a succession of crap FB's until Cora finally comes out and rescues him - Porcello had his season in the sun when he turned himself into sort of a power pitcher. Must have burned out his arm because he cannot even do that anymore and his secondary pitches are not good enough to get by on - Price has the means to get hitters out but it simply takes him too long to get there. Jays ragged him out for 100 pitches in 5....Dodgers just did the same. Does not matter who it is. - Erod now has a magical Change which hitters cannot seem to figure out, be they LH or RH hitters. The hitters keep expecting it to either drift back over the plate or leak back to it and the way he throws it, its dead straight and just dies on the way to the plate. But his Slider is basically crap which means he is still a two pitch Starting pitcher. Even with that, he has shown more ability to throw at least SOMETHING that will be a called strike if the batter does not swing. That makes him an anomaly on this staff until and unless they put Nate back in the rotation. The rocket ship has made pitchers leery of pitching in the zone. They are not good enough to pitch in the zone and their mistakes are now sent into orbit. So they spend entire games trying to slip an 0-0 get me over pitch by to get ahead in the count and then its nibblenibblenibble trying to get hitters to chase. IMO, you need to have a monster pen to pitch the way our starters pitch. It just takes too many pitches to get hitters out even given that these stupid swing out of their shoelaces swings makes them in the main vulnerable to a good many different pitch types. They K a lot as a result and its now an entire game of K or HR, HR or K or BB. Pitchers used to challenge you in the batters box. If you stood too close to the plate, they either made you dance in the batters box or flat knocked you down in the batters box to avoid being hit. Now, if one of these guys throws even close to inside, the broadcast teams are all atwitter about gaining control of the the plate....MY ASS they are...not even close to gaining some respect and holding down at least one side of the plate or the other! That creates a problem all its own because with the rocket ship, hitters can just reach across the plate one handed and if they can get any part of the barrel at all on it, ITS GONE to the opposite field. Then there are so few starters that have anything they can throw for a called strike especially in the AL, it has just become a joke. So the first thing I would do is get rid of Time Warp LaVangie assuming Manfred won't take a sudden turn back to sanity and reverse the rocket ship. Then I would get some pitchers that actually had something they could get past hitters IN THE STRIKE ZONE. Pitchers have to have command to throw inside and gain control of part of the plate and they have to have command and movement in the strike zone to throw pitches that both induce swing and miss and are called strikes if the hitter does not swing. Either that or you better have one of the best pens in the business because your starters are all going to be up at 100 pitches in 5 innings which, WHAT A SHOCKER, is where our starters are in 5 innings. Then I would clean house and get rid of the guys that are not worth what THEY think they are worth selling high as often as I could. Our superstar hitters can't hit breaking balls worth crap for one thing and it appears to me that this year's trend toward pitchers throwing more and more breaking stuff is going to continue. We have strayed too far in MLB from a version of the game designed to show the game AND its players in the best light and I honestly don't know if there is even the means to bring it back it has gone so awry. Pitchers don't pitch and hitters don't hit, not really. Welcome to 21st century MLB. It is likely not possible in this day and age to build a rotation out of guys that can get swing and miss in the zone enough to matter, guys with command and movement in the zone. But to have maybe, MAYBE only one starter that can is death to any team that does not have a killer pen....its just that simple playing MANFRED-ball. This is the mess you get into when you have a commissioner so bound and determined to f*** with the game that he cannot even leave the GOD DAMNED BASEBALL ALONE. Good luck figuring out what to do to build your team.

Price needs some quick outs or he is going to be tickling 100 pitches for 5 again.

Three plays in a row that should have been absolutely nothing plays and the shifty dodgers can't make them...out of position to make them. Gee. just tooooooo bad!

Don't you just love to see teams f***ed by the shift? I do.

Of course they seem like good friends. They all play for the same team....the MLBPA. The rest is just laundry. They even address each other as union members would.

He does not have 98 but his far from his norm Slider is what is exposing his FB and his lack of a decent Change is not helping. He simply loses confidence in his Slider either as soon as he starts throwing it in earnest or when somebody like Turner hit it hard for a base hit. Same thing happened in two straight starts now. Slider confidence gone, here comes an avalanche of hit me please FB's. Without getting his Slider to exhibit the kind of effectiveness he is used to with it, he is pretty helpless and I am not convinced he would not be helpless even if he could throw 95-96 as a starter. In fact he has thrown 95-96 as a starter this year. Hasn't helped.

As I have often said in these pages, I am not well qualified to talk about what is happening in the mind of a pitcher. I never had a mental picture of myself as a pitcher. But I can see what I can see with my eyes: - Sale is yet another pitcher that slings the baseball. He does not throw with his legs. Frankly most of them do not throw with their legs. Their momentum toward home plate, the violence of the pitcher's motion toward home plate is frankly laughable across MLB now. So that results in more stress to the arm especially throwing as hard as they do. - Either because they cannot grip the pitch with the rocket ship baseball or they can neither grip it and can't get the action on it they were used to getting, the Slider is turning into a crap pitch. Well, who do we think is most effected by the Slider turning into a crap pitch? Will anybody be more effected than Chris Sale? Price does not generate much momentum toward home plate and he does not throw with his legs either. But Price has got an anomaly for an arm. Doctors have called it the only self healing arm they have ever seen and in fact it does appear to heal itself. So the stress is simply not as damaging to Price's arm as it appears to be to Sale's. Still and all, so few of them throw with their legs now whereas that used to be the norm not the exception. Clubs are so desperate for pitching up and down their organizations minor and major league that I believe they no longer care how a guy gets the ball to home plate. If he can get it there, he's in and nobody apparently gives a damn how much damage he might be doing to his arm or how short his life expectancy throwing his best might be. Having seen Nolan Ryan pitch close up, I can tell you that normal human beings standing were I got to occasionally stand to watch Nolan pitch would come away wondering how any human being stood in as a hitter against all that momentum that came right up from Nolan's shoe laces through his lower half directed toward home plate. You could literally see hitters feeling like Nolan was attacking them personally with the baseball, he generated so much momentum toward home plate and his motion was that violent. Frankly so many starters threw with their legs as late as the 1980's and even the 1990's. At one time the NY Mets had more starters that threw with their legs than now exists in an entire MLB league. Honestly, that was the technique most starting pitchers had back in the day. So, far less capable pitchers than Nolan Ryan could make a hitter feel like he was being personally attacked with a baseball and you had to stand in against that or you just had no chance of accomplishing anything at any serious organized, competitive level of baseball. I would say MLB has to go back to a baseball these guys can throw and Sale himself may likely have to find another pitch.