Different skills to play different positions inbasketball, but when you look at the stats, we all see PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, etc. and a lot of the newer, cooler ones. And that is what makes up the record books.Originally Posted by Bellhorn04
With football, each position has it's own set of applicable stats (with some crossover). And not one of those stats is used to measure O-linemen....
Looks like Jordan is the career leader in some of the key advanced stats.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Yes, but even little and mid-sized players can get rebounds- sometimes lots of 'em. Big guys can make a lot of assists. All can score, although some in much different ways, but football players never or rarely do any of the tasks asked of different positions on the team- like throw or run with the ball, cover a fast receiver or block or tackle someone.
We saw Magic Johnson, one of the best point guards in the history of the game play the center position in a key playoff game and totally dominate.
We saw Wilt get near and over 8 assists per game for 2 years in a row when needed, while still averaging 24 points and 24 rebounds.
We saw Oscar Robertson average a triple double in his first 3-4 years combined- while scoring 30+ points!
We saw the NCAA change the dunking rules for Lew Alcindor (Jabbar) and watched him develop an unstoppable hook shot.
No doubt, Jordan was among the best of the best, especially at the end of close playoff games. He dominated his era and put up some great numbers. 6 rings is amazing for that era, but Jabbar got 6 and Magic 5 in slightly overlapping eras.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Wilt played a long time, and his numbers late in his career brought his overall numbers down.
Jordan ended up with a 30.12 pts/gm avg while Wilt finished at 30.07.
Wilt averaged 41.5 over his first 6 seasons combined. He also averaged 25.1 rebounds in that period (3 assists)! He never finished with less than 18 rebounds a game in all 15 seasons.
Advanced stats:
PER: Player Efficiency Rating:
Wilt led the league 8 times (all over 24.7). He had 10 straight years over 26.5 and 14 straight over 20. His last 2 seasons were 18.5 and 19.1. Career 26.1 (30.2 his first 6 seasons, 26.6 his next 4 seasons and 20.2 his last 5 with the Lakers.)
Jordan led the league 7 times (all over 27.7).He had 9 straight years over 25.8. His worst season was last at 10.3. Career 27.9- better than Wilt. (I'm not sure if he beats Wilt's first 13 seasons- the length of Jordan's career.
Win Shares/48
Wilt led the league in 8 seasons (all above .240). He had 11 straight seasons over .200 and only 2 below .200 in his 15 seasons (.192 and .167). Career .248 (He led the league in defensive win shares twice in his last 6 seasons
Jordan led the league in WS/48 eight times, too. (all above .270). He only had 7 straight seasons over .200 and was under .200 four times, including his last 2 with Washington. His career was .250 (.274 in his 11 years with the Bulls). Wilt was .267 his first 10 seasons.
I doubt anyone can ever top Wilt's first 4 years:
42.9 Pts (leader all 4 years)
26.0 reb (leader all 4 years)
2.5 Asts
or his first 7:
39.6 (led league all 7 years)
24.8 (led league 5 of 7 years)
3.4
Jordan in season's 3 through 6 (4 years)
34.5 (led all 4)
6.4 reb
6.2 Ast
Jordan's 3 through 9 years (7 years)
33.2 (led all 7, but led 3 more seasons afterwards)
6.4
6.0
The Big O's first 4 seasons
30.2
10.7
10.4 (3 time league leader in Ast)
He was still at triple double after 5 years 30.3/10.4/10.6
and 6 years 30.4/10.0/10.7
He nearly reached the triple double after 7 years and was still over 30 points!
30.4
9.4
10.7 (led league in 5 of 7 and then the next 2, so 7 of first 9 seasons)
Some amazing numbers by all three.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
His greatness is not in question. No one disputes he isn’t among the top handful of players. And certainly any arguments that he isn’t the greatest don’t put him very far down on the list.
But I do think there are arguments for a few other players. And I don’t like the “six rings” argument at all. The advanced stats one is much better, IMO...
I agree, but using career numbers, even the advanced one penalizes players who played for more post prime seasons.
It's interesting to note that many of the best players of all time saw their best seasons in their first 7-9 seasons. Jordan took 2 seasons before reaching true elite greatness. (He did start in the NBA at age 21.)
Since each player had varying periods of elite greatness, it's hard to choose a method that is fair to all players, such as their best 7 to 10 years stretch or their best 7-10 seasons, even if they are spread out. However, I think this sort of study helps lessen the penalty some players have by playing longer. Players that retire before post prime will have advantaged career traditional per game and advanced stats than those who played 15+ seasons.
Here's a short study I put together:
Best 7 consecutive seasons:
Wilt (first 7)
39.6/24.8/3.5
Win Shares 141.4 (.266/48)
Jordan (Ages 23-29)
33.2/6.4/6.0
Win Shares 132.2 (.285)
The Big O (first 7)
30.4/9.4/10.7'
Win Shares 117.6 (.235)
Bill Russell (first 7)
17.1/23.1/3.5
WS 86.3 (.199)
Best 11 straight seasons:
Wilt (first 11)
34.3/24.2/4.5
Win Shares: 200.6 (.259)
Jordan (ages 23-34 not counting off year)
32.0/6.3/5.4
Win Shares 189.0 (.281)
The Big O (first 11)
28.3/ 8.2/10.1
Win Shares 166.6 (.220)
Bill Russell (first 11)
15.8/23.1/4.2
WS 144.4 (.201)
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Top Win Share Seasons All Time:
Wilt 4 in top 8 (6 in top 15)
Kareem 3 of the top 7
Mikan (3 in top 12)
Jordan (9th place was his best and 4 in top 20)
LeBron (17th was his best and 2 in top 20)
Oscar Robertson (13th was his best and only top 20)
(Only David Robinson at #18 placed in the top 20)
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Per Pro-Basketball-Reference.com, Kareem is the all time leader in Win Shares. But no one touts him as the GOAT...
I was lucky to see Kareem play back when I lived in Milwaukee. He was Lew Alcindor, then, and he brought the city a championship. He revolutionized the center position. His hook shot was undefendable. He ran the court very well, for a 7 footer. He defended very well, rebounded, and gave his teams what they needed.
I'm not usually one to reward players for longevity, but Kareem was great for a long, long time and a very big plus post-prime.
3 of the top 7 win shares seasons is second only to Wilt's 4 of top 8. Top 3 is about the highest I could say he is.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Ok.
Now say I posited that Kareem was the NBA GOAT based on his career Win Shares. What’s the defense for Jordan?
Also worth noting but outside the argument, Airplane! and Game of Death were both better movies than Space Jam...
Jordan doesn't need any 'defense'.
Career Win Shares per 48 minutes:
#1 Jordan
#7 Kareem
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Now that’s a good argument for MJ...
Also:
Career Player Efficiency Rating
#1 Jordan
#16 Kareem
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Of course, you have yet to acknowledge Airplane! and Game of Death versus Space Jam...
True. But The Last Dance is pretty good. And Space Jam does at least have Bugs and Daffy...
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
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