The way I see it, if the Yankees, Dodgers or other current big spending teams were in the same position as we were with Sale, they wouldn't have traded him. They would have said "fuck it, let's keep him and hope we get lucky".
The way I see it, if the Yankees, Dodgers or other current big spending teams were in the same position as we were with Sale, they wouldn't have traded him. They would have said "fuck it, let's keep him and hope we get lucky".
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Other current big spending teams? Like the Mets?Originally Posted by Bellhorn04
Not to mention, the logic that “the Sox should have gambled on Sale” as being obvious ignores two points.
1. It was clearly a gamble, which this point openly admits.
2. The Sox did gamble on Sale four times over the previous four seasons and lost each time. Definition of insanity, maybe?
Even you didn’t like the $10mill gamble on Kluber one year earlier, despite Kluber actually pitching a full season and having a lesser injury history in recent years. But with the benefit of hindsight, Sale at 3x as much is obvious?
It was a deal that made sense at the time but so far has blown up badly. I do my blame the Sox for this at all…
Last edited by notin; 06-16-2024 at 10:24 AM.
as much as i've been down on Gruesome, i totally understand why they wanted him when you look at what he had done in AA and AAA. but as we all know, success in AAA doesn't always translate into success in MLB. see Dalbek, Bobby.
no way Henry pays him. no way.
For the most part, he did do well, in the very few IP he had after 2019, but he was not really all that close to vintage Sale.To me the bottom line is that Sale's fWAR per inning has remained good through those injury-ravaged and abbreviated seasons with us.
The hilarious one is 2022, when he registered a 0.2 fWAR in 5.2 IP. Even that extrapolates well.
2017-2018
2.56 ERA/2.25 FIP/0.92 WHIP/7.1 K/BB
2014-2018, including time w CWS
2.85/2.69/0.99/11.6
2019 (147 IP)
4.40/3.39/1.09/5.9
2020-2023 (151 IP over 4 seasons: 38 per season AVG)
3.93/3.72/1.19/4.3 (2.6 bWAR/3.1 fWAR)
All these numbers are significantly lower than pre-2019, and all but the ERA is worse than 2019.
38 IP per season over 4 seasons (less than 60 over the last 5 seasons.)
Nobody expected close to this:
2.98/2.33/0.94/7.6
At best we might have hoped he could give us the 3.39 FIP from 2023 over more innings, which of course, would have been a big help, especially in light or what happened to Gio & Whitlock.
Of course we all wish we had the 2024 Sale on our staff, right now, but nobody expected this Sale. I'm not sure many expected the 2013 Sale over 170+ IP, either.
Many of us did not expect great or even good things from Gio, but we did reasonably expect 160+ IP. Grissom's future was mostly speculative, but he did have a decent OPS after 230+ PAs.
No doubt, the trade looks about as bad as anyone could have ever imagined, so far.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
I think Cora is an investment Henry will make to keep future roster payrolls down…
My main point was there were reasons to make the trade, at the time.
The other main reason was this:
Sox 2B fWAR
2.6 from 2022-2023 (ranked 26th in MLB)
2.1 from 2019-2021 (ranked 25nd)
From 2019-2023, we were ranked 27th. That's 5 seasons of horrific 2B play. Bottom third tier on O and D.
Grissom looked very promising- more so than someone like Jeter Downs, because he already had over 230 PAs in the bigs. He had not shown he was a plus defensive SS, but the expectation was he could become a decent or average 2Bman on D after a short time. A .750 OPS or so, would have blown away the .697 OPS we got from 2B in the previous 5 seasons combined.
The deal has been a disaster, out of the gate, but Grissom has many years to right the ship, assuming he doesn't bomb out and lasts as long as Downs did.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
I'm not sure money will be an issue with JH on Cora. They offered him a promotion, already.
I think the ball will be in Cora's court, and I'm not sure he is all that pleased with the direction JH has taken the team since the Betts trade. He's vocalized that discontent several times to varying degrees.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Sale has done everything to embarrass the Sox on this trade. I just wish he was able to embarrass like this them occasionally from 2020 through 2023.
Grissom has been his complete inverse - unhealthy, underperforming- making this look even worse.
But I’m not calling him a bust after 87 PA. I advocated for the DFA of David Hamilton in April after a much larger and equally unimpressive sample size and Hamilton has responded lately with an impressive show. Some guys take a while.
I’m still right about DFAing Dalbec, however…
I totally agree, and those 87 PAs cam after no ST'ing and some while he was battling or feeling the effects of a bad flu.
That is not to say, I'm sure he will improve. He has a lot to prove and more to "make up for" what he already has given us: a negative value.
That being said, DHam has already atoned for his bad start to MLB, and then some, Maybe Grissom will. Maybe with the way DHam and EValdez are doing, he may not even have to comeback.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
I don't think you're completely getting my position.
Of course keeping Sale would have been a gamble - with a big potential payoff like the one we're seeing so far.
And what did we gain by passing up that gamble?
A 10 million dollar payroll reduction, and a prospect.
Not enough, IMHO.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
As for Grissom, if you look at his major league game logs from Day One, you're not going to like the trend you see one little bit.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Check our some of these June numbers:
1.251 Valdez
1.101 Duran
1.063 Devers
.879 O'Neill
.836 Smith
.810 Wong
.804 Abreu
.798 DHam
.749 Westbrook
.700 Refsnyder
.667 Rafaela
.542 Dalbec
.464 Yoshida
.319 McGuire
OPS Against
.136 Kelly
.478 Jansen
.519 Keller (7th in PAs Against)
.558 Pivetta (5th in PAs Against)
.570 Houck (3rd in PAs Against)
.657 Criswell (2nd in PAs Against)
.668 Booser
.754 Crawford (4th in PAs Against)
.757 Slaten (8th)
.812 Weissert
.813 Anderson (5th)
.908 Bello (1st in PAs Against)
.929 Bernardino
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Everyone is just assuming Cora will be managing somewhere next year. I’m not so sure on that.
The "trend" is a flatline of sucktitude.
I know you love my cherry-picking, so...
.297 first 9 games
.419 last 14 games
But also....
.360 first 11 games
.373 last 12 games
Looks flatlined and headed to the morgue.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
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