Yeah you can work as hard as you want, but you also need the opportunity, which is kinda the point we're touching here. In that respect, losing Sale/Giolito might have been somewhat of a blessing in disguise. Then again, we're all speculating here.
Yeah you can work as hard as you want, but you also need the opportunity, which is kinda the point we're touching here. In that respect, losing Sale/Giolito might have been somewhat of a blessing in disguise. Then again, we're all speculating here.
WAR is good for something.
fWAR's at the season's halfway point:
Sale 3.0
Grissom -0.9
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
The Sox won the bullpen game vs Cincinnati, won the next game (when Campbell gave up 3 ER's vs the Jays), and then lost to the Jays because Bello had an awful start, 7 ER in 2.1 innings. Cora's managing in all 3 games was faultless. Indeed, in the game Bello lost, Winckowski pitching 6 innings, giving up 2 runs and throwing 91 pitches. He is now in the rotation replacing Criswell. So is Bello. And the bullpen is rested.Originally Posted by Bellhorn04
Yeah I just don't see how we can say otherwise, our opinions are based on the biased view of how this season has unfolded.
If we had Sale and Gio and he was healthy he certianly would never of gotten a shot. If he got a spot start in late May maybe he's not stretched out and not as effective and never shines like he has. I think it's a very real liklihood we never see this version of Tanner in an alternate universe.
Sale's old, Grissom's young, but I agree the deal currently looks really stupid.
On the other hand, the Sox pitching, halfway through the season and without Sale, Giolito, or Whitlock, has the 6th best ERA in MLB, 3.54, which is the lowest Sox team ERA in the John Henry era. However, the 2007 Sox ERA was ranked 2d in MLB and the 2017 Sox ERA was ranked 4th in MLB.
I think there can be no question the Sox would be better off with Sale and without Giolito (or Grissom). However, Atlanta was prepared to give Sale a 3 year contract, and I understand the Sox reluctance to do so.
Atlanta gave Sale a 2 year deal for $38 million, plus they have a club option for a third year at $18 million.
The Red Sox are paying $17 million of the guaranteed $38 million.
Thus Atlanta has control over Sale for 3 years but are only actually on the hook for $21 million.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
I think your hypothetical has to include Giolito getting injured.
Besides, they would have seen in spring that Houck had taken a giant leap forward.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
He had 4 years to do that here. Why couldn’t he?
If Sale had shown anything since 2018, don’t you think he’d still be here?
A change of scenery has done wonders for Sale, and just like I said when Sale got traded to the Braves I thought he would stay healthy, and have a big year for the Braves. BINGO!
Post 15 of this thread, Old Red said
“ I’m definitely not sad to see Sale get traded, but I don’t like paying $17M to do it.”
So now your story is you thought he was not only going to be healthy, but also to bounce back. Yet you still were not sad to see him go.
I suppose it’s nice to see you attributing your made up quotes to yourself now instead of making up quotes and attributing them to others…
We've already gone over the fact that his fWAR was good when he pitched.
2019-2023 298.33 IP 6.7 fWAR
Saying he didn't "show anything" since 2018 only clinches that you're not interested in being fair about it.
Last edited by Bellhorn04; 06-28-2024 at 11:34 AM.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
You are such a NUMB Nuts,and it’s really pathetic. We’ve gone over this many times already, and it’s amazing that you mentioned post 15, but you conveniently left out post 333 where I mentioned exactly where I said I thought Sale would stay healthy' and have a BIG year for the Braves. I also mentioned on post 333 that I was told I couldn’t say I thought Sale would stay healthy, because I didn’t say that when he was with the Red Sox, and called him Frail. Post 333 NNN.
“When he pitched” is not a qualifier; it’s the point. Ignoring that Sale rarely pitched and considering one 40 inning stretch (that followed missing 8 weeks) is like saying “if you ignore the iceberg, the Titanic was a success!”
Also, 40 innings at the end of an off-and-on 5 year stretch is proof he’s back? Do Grissom and Giolito get 40 AB/IP to “dazzle” as well?
Of course I never said anything about "proof" or "dazzle". Seems like all you have is straw man arguments.
What seems clear to me is that past injuries do not necessarily predict future injuries. The Dodgers traded for and extended Tyler Glasnow, who pitched fewer innings than Sale from 2019-2023. We still have hope for Trevor Story. And so on.
Last edited by Bellhorn04; 06-28-2024 at 11:58 AM.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
1. Nice statistical crafting, making sure we count Sale’s 2019 in there. That way we can ignore that Glasgow’s 272 IP from 2020 to 2023 was nearly double Sale’s total over that period.
2. So do you now think past injuries are completely unrelated to future injuries? This isn’t a coin flip, where 10 heads in a row means nothing towards the outcome of the 11th flip.
Plenty of pitchers are having good years despite injury-plagued pasts. But after this season, should the Sox sign Luis Severino for 4-5 years? Or Max Fried for 7-10? Are you that confident with your 2 pitcher sample size that past injuries are potentially irrelevant?
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