And Brez did not easily about to brush off Sale’s recent 4 year history. He thought he was stabilising the rotation, but if failed on 3 sides at once:Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75
Gio out for the yr
Sale pitching like Chris Freakin’ Sale
Grissom looking like Jeter Downs the second
Yes but later I started to see the reasoning of getting 5 years of a promising 2Bman, a position where we were like the worst for 3-4 year, for a guy we rolled the dice and lost for 4 straight years.
Of course, in hindsight, the deal failed on many levels, at least for now on some parts, but there was some logic to the choices made.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
He did look more likely to be healthy in 2024 than some previous seasons, but there were just so many times he let us down, that I had reached the point of having very little hope or confidence he’d pitch over 100-120 IP at even a 3.50 ERA. This from a poster who defended the Sale extension for over 2-3 years- remember my point about the 5 year deal still being okay knowing he’d likely just give us 4 seasons.
I probably had more faith in Grissom than most, and his book is far from finished (maybe)
I can understand how many feel any move giving up a pitcher for an everyday player could make any sense for the Sox, who pretty much had its biggest winter need in the rotation. But, I do think the Sale savings were used to justify the Gio signing. When that part backfired, too, it only made the deal look more stupid.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Gio pitched almost 5 times the amount of innings as Sale the last few years. If his problems were more mental than physical, heck even if they were physical the staff may have seen a mechanical adjustment needed to be made to get him right. I can see their mindset for making the trade. It just looks really bad now that Sale is good and Gio is hurt.
If Gio was healthy and pitching like crap, I'd have a much easier time bashing the trade.
Agreed, but for some it’s not so much in hindsight. They hated the trade from day one, for various reasons.
Even I was highly sceptical, at first but eventually saw the reasoning behind the trade. Of course the trade looks awful now, but it was a clear attempt to add stability to the staff while making a major attempt at fixing the god-awful 2B situation we have had for 3-4 years, all for about $7M net, less if you factor in cutting salary with the Verdugo, Urias and Schreiber deals in the overall scheme of the winter spending budget.
(The O’Neill trade added some.)
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
I didn't mind the trade, just felt like Chris Sale was done and I thought they got a really good young player who filled a need at 2b. But times have changed--the Red Sox don't seem to be so desperate at 2b anymore, with a number of young players competing for the position in the future: Hamilton, Campbell, Yorke, and Mediroth.
Maybe the lesson of this trade is that you never give up on a SP with Sale's background, even if he has been getting injured every single year for the past 4-5 seasons (or so). Starters are just so valuable and so even when you have one who is fragile and getting older, you don't trade him and instead keep him and hope for the best.
Also, the story is not yet over. Chris Sale could blow out his shoulder a month from now and miss the rest of the season and no one would be surprised.
I'll feel better about the loss of Sale if the Red Sox sign a major free agent starter in the off-season, which they probably plan to do.
Last edited by Fan_since_Boggs; Yesterday at 06:27 PM.
I think the Sale/Giolito/Grissom deals demonstrate we still have one of dumbest FO's in MLB.
The Braves FO, on the other hand, has been pretty crafty, especially about pitching, where our FO has been consummately stupid in recent years. I include DD in the stupid category because he left CB with Sale and Price who turned out both to be pricey and useless, 2019-2022.
Let's not forget that Sale had the right to refuse the trade and therefore insisted that, whoever got him, had to sign him for 3 years, not just 2024. Apparently the Braves found this acceptable and the Sox thought it was so stupid--by the Braves--they agreed to pay $17M to Sale this year to seal the deal. Free at last! Free at last!
These days TJ surgery is so common it's being done younger and younger. It's not a matter of whether any more, but when. In Sale's case, there were clear signs in both 2017 and 2018 that something was wrong because both seasons he turned back into a pumpkin in August-September-October. But such was his determination that the need didn't fully show itself until 2019.
Last year Giolito was showing signs, late in the season, something was amiss, and the Sox ignored them. At the same time Giolito was struggling, Sale finally showed signs that he just might have a good year in 2024.
TJ surgery almost always gives the pitcher new life and additional seasons. Because of the bicycle accident, last year, 2023, became Sale's first real post-Tommy John season. Also, not only does he keep himself in shape, he is probably the most professional pitcher I've seen pitch for the Sox.
To me the Braves simply understood Sale better than the Sox did. Plus they may have been helped by John Henry, who quite possibly might have said, "dump him, now."
At the same time the Sox did not recognize the semi-inevitability of TJ surgery for Giolito or any of the signs there was a reason why, with all those good seasons under his belt, he was now completely available.
Grissom might turn out to be OK, but his good year was 2022 when his WAR was +0.9 for 41 games. Last year it was -0.7 for 23 games. This year is a dead ringer for last year: 23 games, WAR -0.6. His MLB OPS's have been .792 in 2022, .659 last year, and .367 in 2024.
Meanwhile, going into this season the Sox already had Story and their top prospect, Marcelo Mayer, who is reported to be gifted defensively. Plus, as we now know, the Sox also had/have adequate guys like Hamilton, Gonzalez, Valdez, and even Rafaela to fill the two middle infield positions.
Max, we’ve had the worst 2B WAR over the last 3-4 years, combined. Let’s not pretend we knew Valdez, DHam and others was going to change that.
Let’s not pretend we knew Story was going to play150+ games at SS.
Let’s not count on Mayer while saying we were dumb to count on Grissom.
Our FO attempted to fix our worst position on paper and felt they stabilised the rotation with a more durable SPer.
Gio got hurt makes the FO dumb?
Sale surprising everybody in the world makes Brez dumb?
Grissom surprising almost everyone makes Brez dumb?
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Was it wise to sign Richards and Kluber?
Both had been great or very good pitchers for extended times, but has been injured often or recently before their signings? Both had hardly pitched in previous seasons.
Not many liked the signings at the time, and nobody liked them in hindsight.
Had we signed Sale to a $27M/1 deal, last winter, how many posters would have been happy with yet another gamble at nearly 3x what Kluber or Richards cost? Be honest with yourself.
How about Sale at $10M/1? (With or without another addition like Gio?)
I think the FO got fed up with hoping injured pitchers might regain form AND give 150+ IP in the upcoming season.
Hell, even the recent SPer additions that kinda worked out never gave us both.
Wacha and Hill pitched okay but no 150+ IP.
Perez gave us IP but not quality pitching.
Pivetta came closest, but is really just a decent #4.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
All those guys Bloom signed were dumpster dives.
They don't really have much to do with Sale, who was a sunk cost and has to be evaluated as such.
Giolito was yet another dumpster dive, or project, considering how badly he pitched the last two months.
The issue is that they only signed Giolito, and when he got injured they didn't do anything to replace him.
Now we have to pray Houck and Crawford hold up as they pitch more innings than they ever have.
Winckowski might step up, we can hope so.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Giolito had a 3.45 ERA in the first half with 117 K in 112.1 IP, got into a messy divorce, and his numbers plummeted. He also had negative run values on an overused 4-seamer. Dude was Breslow's wet dream.
We can argue this until we're blue in the face, but making the right trade and the results of the trade being terrible are not mutually exclusive things.
WAR is good for something.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote