9/30 SOX @ O's 7:15 PM ET

[Maxbialystock]

Not to mention 6 for 12.

We're batting .500 in finishing last over a 12 year period.

Let me see now, I think 12 years includes two WS's--2013 and 2018. Plus 2018 was only the best season in Sox history and one of the best MLB seasons ever because the Sox went 11-3 in the postseason against 3 pretty good teams--the Yankees, the Astros, and the Dodgers.

In the now 21 years of the John Henry era the Sox ended the 86 year "curse" and won three more WS. That total of 4 WS is more than any other MLB team during those 21 seasons and 3 more than the Yankees have won.

I'm not saying we should be happy with this season or last season, but am saying your moaning and groaning is excessive.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Last night they put on a singles dance.

But not enough gentlemen drove anyone home.

The new GM has to break down and pay for Uber batters.

[Bellhorn04]

Let me see now, I think 12 years includes two WS's--2013 and 2018. Plus 2018 was only the best season in Sox history and one of the best MLB seasons ever because the Sox went 11-3 in the postseason against 3 pretty good teams--the Yankees, the Astros, and the Dodgers.

In the now 21 years of the John Henry era the Sox ended the 86 year "curse" and won three more WS. That total of 4 WS is more than any other MLB team during those 21 seasons and 3 more than the Yankees have won.

I'm not saying we should be happy with this season or last season, but am saying your moaning and groaning is excessive.

I was merely stating a fact.

[Maxbialystock]

Defense is more of an X factor, Max, not quite as obvious but can be significant. Every metric shows our defense has gifted a lot of runs to the opposition this year.

I agree the defense sucks, but I also think the game threads tend to overlook errors and costly non-errors by opposing teams. When the Sox misplay a ball, it's the end of life as we know it. When the opposing team does the same thing, it's just part of the game.

No one on talksox has actually identified specific games in which errors or non-error misplays cost a win. But it's dead easy to identify games won or lost because of hitting and/or pitching.

In fact, if you look at the MLB team stats in the John Henry era, you will see that this 2023 Sox team is one of the worst hitting teams, which I determine quite simply by looking at the Sox ranking in total runs scored in the season. Right now they are 11th. To get into the postseason, the Sox need to be on the top 5.

A similar calculus applies to the pitching--the ranking of the Sox team ERA, which right now is 21st. Sox pitching (team ERA) doesn't need to be in the top 5, however: the 2018 Sox team ERA was 8th best; 2013 was 14th best; 2004 was 11th best; and 2007 was 2d best. The 2021 Sox made it to the ALCS with the 15th best team ERA.

[Bellhorn04]

But not enough gentlemen drove anyone home.

Perfect response.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree the defense sucks, but I also think the game threads tend to overlook errors and costly non-errors by opposing teams. When the Sox misplay a ball, it's the end of life as we know it. When the opposing team does the same thing, it's just part of the game.

No one on talksox has actually identified specific games in which errors or non-error misplays cost a win. But it's dead easy to identify games won or lost because of hitting and/or pitching.

But who says easy information is the only good information?

I certainly remember a number of games where folks described the Red Sox defense as a clown show. Most of them were losses, I believe.

[moonslav59]

Oh, yeah, defense is what this game is all about. What a crock!

Hitting and pitching are the sine qua non for any MLB team.

You guys all bought into the thesis that Kike at SS was just killing the Sox, but the Sox had a winning record with Kike in the lineup. Now we have a good defensive SS in Story and a losing record with him in the lineup.

The Sox are losing this season because the hitting and pitching are both subpar.

Nobody has claimed it's all about the defense or that defense is equal or close to the value of pitching or batting. Nobody.

Just because we talk about it does not mean we think it matters most.

The vast majority of statements are about our need to improve our rotation and then getting a RH'd bat.

Nobody is talking about benching Devers or Casas over their D, or even Yoshida. Nobody.

We will likely have an opening at DH, so either we spend on one, or we move someone there. It's a worthy point of discussion.

[moonslav59]

I agree the defense sucks, but I also think the game threads tend to overlook errors and costly non-errors by opposing teams. When the Sox misplay a ball, it's the end of life as we know it. When the opposing team does the same thing, it's just part of the game.

No one on talksox has actually identified specific games in which errors or non-error misplays cost a win. But it's dead easy to identify games won or lost because of hitting and/or pitching.

In fact, if you look at the MLB team stats in the John Henry era, you will see that this 2023 Sox team is one of the worst hitting teams, which I determine quite simply by looking at the Sox ranking in total runs scored in the season. Right now they are 11th. To get into the postseason, the Sox need to be on the top 5.

A similar calculus applies to the pitching--the ranking of the Sox team ERA, which right now is 21st. Sox pitching (team ERA) doesn't need to be in the top 5, however: the 2018 Sox team ERA was 8th best; 2013 was 14th best; 2004 was 11th best; and 2007 was 2d best. The 2021 Sox made it to the ALCS with the 15th best team ERA.

The WS winners have proven you can win it all with various combinations of being really good in some areas and okay or even bad in some other areas. Certainly, being good on batting and pitching is more valuable than defense and base running, but all factor into how much you win or lose. The Royals won with a crappy rotation, but a great pen, defense, base-running and decent hitting. It can happen.

We all know many teams have won with okay to bad and even horrific defense. It can be done. Nobody disputes that fact. When the Sox win, it's almost always because our batting was great, we had a decent closer and or pen, and a healthy and productive rotation, usually with 2 TOTR type SP'ers.

Our home park will always improve our league rankings on batting, so that has to be factored in. It also hurts our pitching rankings.

Ring Rankings (Batting wRC+, Pitching- fWAR, Defense, Running)
Year B-P-D-R
2004: 1-4-24-30
2007: 2-6-14-19 (If you notice, we fell in B & P, but D & R picked up the slack.)
2013: T1-14-11-5 (one could argue the D & R covered for the average P.)
2018: 4-6-15-20 (A pretty well rounded team.)

Max, one could bring up several examples where the Sox were better in batting and pitching than the 2013 team, yet did not even make the playoffs. It would prove nothing, but it does raise questions about your methodology on determining why the Sox win rings and how little defense matters.

BTW, that 2015 KCR team:
10-14-2-17 (20th in SP fWAR)
Middle of the road batting
Bottom 11 rotation
Middle running
2nd in defense.

[****THEYANKEES]

The WS winners have proven you can win it all with various combinations of being really good in some areas and okay or even bad in some other areas. Certainly, being good on batting and pitching is more valuable than defense and base running, but all factor into how much you win or lose. The Royals won with a crappy rotation, but a great pen, defense, base-running and decent hitting. It can happen.

We all know many teams have won with okay to bad and even horrific defense. It can be done. Nobody disputes that fact. When the Sox win, it's almost always because our batting was great, we had a decent closer and or pen, and a healthy and productive rotation, usually with 2 TOTR type SP'ers.

Our home park will always improve our league rankings on batting, so that has to be factored in. It also hurts our pitching rankings.

Ring Rankings (Batting wRC+, Pitching- fWAR, Defense, Running)
Year B-P-D-R
2004: 1-4-24-30
2007: 2-6-14-19 (If you notice, we fell in B & P, but D & R picked up the slack.)
2013: T1-14-11-5 (one could argue the D & R covered for the average P.)
2018: 4-6-15-20 (A pretty well rounded team.)

Max, one could bring up several examples where the Sox were better in batting and pitching than the 2013 team, yet did not even make the playoffs. It would prove nothing, but it does raise questions about your methodology on determining why the Sox win rings and how little defense matters.

BTW, that 2015 KCR team:
10-14-2-17 (20th in SP fWAR)
Middle of the road batting
Bottom 11 rotation
Middle running
2nd in defense.

it all matters. i don't know why he's being so hard-headed about it. maybe we could get Bill Buckner to convince him.

[moonslav59]

it all matters. i don't know why he's being so hard-headed about it. maybe we could get Bill Buckner to convince him.

The thing is, nobody is saying defense matters more than batting and pitching. Hell, I doubt anyone thinks it matters more than just the rotation or the pen or even half a line-up.

It's a point of discussion that Max just doesn't want to happen, for some reason.

Our D sucked. We allowed way too many opponents on base, when they should have been out. We forced our pitchers to get 4 or 5 outs in way too many innings.

We lost games because of our defense, and we certainly lost more than we won from our opps defense. Yes, every loss cannot be blamed on just one play (hit, out or Reach on Error,) but our defense contributed to way too many losses. That is indisputable.

According to Outs Above Average we are -52!

The next teams are:
-52 BOS
-38 CIN
-28 MIA
-21 OAK
-18 LAA
We are worse than the 3rd and 4th worst teams combined. To think that hardly matters is not sensible.

Those 52 outs are just below AVERAGE! Imagine, if we were top 5 (+23 to +40!) We'd be talking a 75 to 90 swing in hits/errors turned into outs. For context, if our offense made 75 to 90 more outs, instead of hits, our team BA would drop from .259 (4th in MLB):

.245 with 75 (T18th)
.244 with 90 (20th)

We'd all be screaming how terrible our offense is.

[notin]

Oh, yeah, defense is what this game is all about. What a crock!

Hitting and pitching are the sine qua non for any MLB team.

You guys all bought into the thesis that Kike at SS was just killing the Sox, but the Sox had a winning record with Kike in the lineup. Now we have a good defensive SS in Story and a losing record with him in the lineup.

The Sox are losing this season because the hitting and pitching are both subpar.

That clinches it. Defense is clearly a non-factor…

[dgalehouse]

The trick is to score more runs than the other team. Hitting, pitching, fielding, base running and smart managing are all components of it. Being strong in some areas can make up for weakness in others. Regrettably, we did not see enough of that this year.

[****THEYANKEES]

The thing is, nobody is saying defense matters more than batting and pitching. Hell, I doubt anyone thinks it matters more than just the rotation or the pen or even half a line-up.

It's a point of discussion that Max just doesn't want to happen, for some reason.

Our D sucked. We allowed way too many opponents on base, when they should have been out. We forced our pitchers to get 4 or 5 outs in way too many innings.

We lost games because of our defense, and we certainly lost more than we won from our opps defense. Yes, every loss cannot be blamed on just one play (hit, out or Reach on Error,) but our defense contributed to way too many losses. That is indisputable.

According to Outs Above Average we are -52!

The next teams are:
-52 BOS
-38 CIN
-28 MIA
-21 OAK
-18 LAA
We are worse than the 3rd and 4th worst teams combined. To think that hardly matters is not sensible.

Those 52 outs are just below AVERAGE! Imagine, if we were top 5 (+23 to +40!) We'd be talking a 75 to 90 swing in hits/errors turned into outs. For context, if our offense made 75 to 90 more outs, instead of hits, our team BA would drop from .259 (4th in MLB):

.245 with 75 (T18th)
.244 with 90 (20th)

We'd all be screaming how terrible our offense is.

it's things like this that separate a bad team from a fair team, a fair team from a good team and a good team from a great team.

[moonslav59]

it's things like this that separate a bad team from a fair team, a fair team from a good team and a good team from a great team.

Yes, and of the 4 or more areas can do that.