9/5 vs Blue Jays

[illinoisredsox]

Jason Vargas was an AS this year. He has an 8.15 ERA since July 5th. Are you going to say that he's still a good pitcher? AS game appearances are fairly meaningless.

Vargas probably isn't as good as he was in the first half nor as bad as he's been in the second half. Goes for Estrada and a lot of guys. Heck, it went for Pomeranz last year.

The real point is that people need to get off this should have pounded him crap based on their perception of stuff. There are many ways to get hitters out, not all of them involve throwing the ball 95+. Maybe the Sox hitters just aren't as good as people here think they are.

[OH FOY!]

Next year better to check him out, we'll see if Major Leaguers have him figured him out. Wow Randy Jones, remember him very well batters figure him out too.

[illinoisredsox]

For me, more to the point about Estrada is that, like many pitchers having shitty years, there are some good games mixed in there. On August 10 he blanked the Yanks for 7.

Now if you want to say we've been making too many shitty pitchers look good this year, I wouldn't argue with that.

Well said. Porcello has had a few gems this year as well, but it doesn't change his overall lousy season.

[Bellhorn04]

I made it into the 18th before giving up.

My 'find out the next morning' mojo has actually been very good this year.

[illinoisredsox]

Next year better to check him out, we'll see if Major Leaguers have him figured him out. Wow Randy Jones, remember him very well batters figure him out too.

Estrada's 34 now, so it's hard to say how he'll fare from here forward. I don't recall if he's ever been overpowering, but if he can change speeds and locate, he could be somewhat successful for a few more years.

Jones had an arm injury late in his Cy Young year, IIRC, and was never the same after that. My point was that 95+ is not a necessity.

[OH FOY!]

Never said it is, but 2 pitches should be easy to figure out, to Major League hitters. You get a guy like Mike Cuellar who threw junk all over the place, but had multiple pitches was guy who was real hard to sit on pitches.
You get guy like Maddox who had pinpoint control, seems like the exception, about having 1 or 2 pitches. He had a lot of movement on his Pitches.

[moonslav59]

I'm in the central time zone, so it wasn't difficult for me.

I usually watch the games on delay, so I can fast-forward the commercials. I'm not used to sitting through so many commercials and pitching changes.

It was torturous.

The win made the pain go away.

[Bellhorn04]

Never said it is, but 2 pitches should be easy to figure out, to Major League hitters.

That's kind of oversimplifying don't you think? A lot of pitchers have been successful with 2 pitches. Hell, Mariano Rivera only had one.

[a700hitter]

Quarter Pounder with cheese or a Big Mac? Probably going to get them a side of chicken nuggets too. Is it wrong to not buy them fries as well?

Spring for the meal.

[a700hitter]

For me, more to the point about Estrada is that, like many pitchers having shitty years, there are some good games mixed in there. On August 10 he blanked the Yanks for 7.

Now if you want to say we've been making too many shitty pitchers look good this year, I wouldn't argue with that.

That outing against the Yankees probably said more about the Yankee slumping than Estrada pitching well. He stinks.

[a700hitter]

You do realize Estrada was selected to the All-Star team only a year ago, right? No, that guy hasn't been pitching this season, but it's not like it isn't in him to do so.

He changed speeds effectively. If you throw everything the same speed, major league hitters will catch up to it (Joe Kelly is a good example of this). Take a pitcher who can change speeds (i.e., can upset timing), facing a team that doesn't hit off-speed stuff all that well to begin with and is in a overall teamwide slump, and you've got the ingredients for a 3 hitter.

40 years ago, Randy Jones won a Cy Young and had a couple 20 win seasons throwing pitches as slow as 72 mph (and topping out at 85). There are many ways to get hitters out.

Randy Jones and Mike Cuellar were aces. Estrada is back of the rotation and not an ace. He is the type of pitcher that we should light up, especially this year when he is stinking up the joint.

[a700hitter]

Staying up has never been a problem for me. Going to sleep is my problem.

[Maxbialystock]

So true. If you strike out in a pinch hitting situation, you should never play again. Great post!

Meh. You twisted my words, of course. I am absolutely not anti-Devers because of his obvious potential. I'm not blind. All I'm saying is that he is missing games right now for a reason--mostly, his hitting has dropped off, but also because his defense is suspect--and that the easy K last night did not suggest that he has things figured out. Then I also said I can see the real possibility of Devers getting back into the lineup with Nunez going back to SS and Bogie dropping out. This ain't April or even August. Given our hitting woes and the reality there are just 23 games left, patience is not a virtue right now. Farrell has to go with the guys he thinks can help right now. If he says Devers, I am fine with that. If he doesn't, I will understand why.

[Maxbialystock]

That, and maybe a little bit of "oh, fuck this shit already" on the part of the Jays center fielder. He didn't exactly go all out diving to make a play on that.

Agree. But, honestly, I thought that guy was a little hesitant on earlier plays and that maybe Betts was counting on that. But you are right about what we would have said if the CF made the grab, especially with no one out. What was he thinking?

My answer is he was thinking about the 9th when HanRam came to bat with men on base and grounded out to the left side. My answer is that that pop to CF, if caught, would not allow Betts to get to 3b with one out. My answer is that Betts put that entire game on his back and did what he thought would win the game. And he was so right. I have griped about his hitting as much as anyone, but there is no doubt in my mind he is a great ballplayer, one who can beat you five different ways (hit, hit with power, field, throw, run the bases). On top of that, I think he has exceptional situation awareness.

[Maxbialystock]

Thanks to MVP78 for squeezing out that last bit of mojo to get this win and to moonslav who has kept the faith.