Rotation

[Bellhorn04]

and here we go...

People still defending the indefensible –FO

Unbelievable!

Could you respond to specific posts instead of making generalized comments like that? Then whoever it is you're talking about can respond to you.

[iortiz]

Could you respond to specific posts instead of making generalized comments like that? Then whoever it is you're talking about can respond to you.

oh boy! :lol:

[Bellhorn04]

oh boy! :lol:

It's really not that difficult. If you are objecting to someone 'defending the indefensible', then reply directly to the post you're talking about. Using the term 'people' is a total cop-out.

And it's not like there is a huge crowd of posters here right now.

[SoxSport]

Tough to see anybody out there who is much better than what they've got for starters. Haren is a questionmark after last season. Declining heat like Beckett. Lackey might be their best bet to fill the 5th starter slot, though I wouldn't discount Morales. He and Doubront faded last year, and you have to wonder about their conditioning regimen for pitchers. Arm strength may not be what it should be with their pitch count obsession.

Better to give their pitching prospects a good look--especially DeLaRosa. Chances are they have one or two who can help the team next year. No sense in leaving them in the minors if they are better than what you have.

[Palodios]

Tough to see anybody out there who is much better than what they've got for starters. Haren is a questionmark after last season. Declining heat like Beckett. Lackey might be their best bet to fill the 5th starter slot, though I wouldn't discount Morales. He and Doubront faded last year, and you have to wonder about their conditioning regimen for pitchers. Arm strength may not be what it should be with their pitch count obsession.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[SoxFanForsyth]

What i don't understand is why people automatically assume the GM "failed" here. How do we know the Angels weren't asking for too much or it became apparent that Haren was going to become a FA?

Even worse, how do we know if, upon doing a complete checkup on him, the Sox weren't willing to give up a player like Bard for him.

Too many smart people here making a lot of thoroughly unrealistic assumptions.

The reason that we know the Angels weren't asking for too much was because they had a deal lined up with the Cubs for Carlos Marmol. He's horrendous. He had a 7.3 BB/9 last year.

Haren could have been had for Chris Carpenter. He certainly could have been had for Alfredo Aceves, and I would have been more than willing to get rid of that clown.

Regardless of all of this, it is very curious as to why the Cubs pulled out of the deal. Was it because of Marmol's no trade? Was it because the Cubs found something on his medicals?

Who knows, all we know is that he threw well down the stretch: 3.58 ERA in his final 13 starts, 2.81 ERA in his final 8 starts. So that makes me think that he is healthy enough.

The Sox could have gotten the Angels to pay at least $2mm of his $15.5mm deal. It really just makes no sense to me.

[jung]

Well something just does not make sense about the whole thing with Haren. It is screwy enough for me not to be willing to call it a fail on the part of the FO without knowing more. Was inclined to the FO inability to make decisive mores until the Cubs deal fell apart and then Haren passed into FA just like that.

Now I am willing to leave the door open to there being something that just does not pass the smell test here.

[User Name?]

The reason that we know the Angels weren't asking for too much was because they had a deal lined up with the Cubs for Carlos Marmol. He's horrendous. He had a 7.3 BB/9 last year.

Haren could have been had for Chris Carpenter. He certainly could have been had for Alfredo Aceves, and I would have been more than willing to get rid of that clown.

Regardless of all of this, it is very curious as to why the Cubs pulled out of the deal. Was it because of Marmol's no trade? Was it because the Cubs found something on his medicals?

Who knows, all we know is that he threw well down the stretch: 3.58 ERA in his final 13 starts, 2.81 ERA in his final 8 starts. So that makes me think that he is healthy enough.

The Sox could have gotten the Angels to pay at least $2mm of his $15.5mm deal. It really just makes no sense to me.

The bolded parts are massive speculation. And also, Marmol was reportedly willing to waive his no-trade. Now think about it, the Cubs pulled the "horrible" Marmol back and the trade didn't go through. Doesn't that raise some red flags?

[SCM33]

Haren could have been had for Chris Carpenter. He certainly could have been had for Alfredo Aceves, and I would have been more than willing to get rid of that clown.

You are going to completely disregard what Aceves did a year ago?

You do realize he was severely misused, and then overused correct? He threw 84 meaningless innings and was warming up almost every day in games that a closer had no impact in.

Im not defending his late season actions, but had the Sox just signed Papelbon and kept Bard in the bullpen, Aceves could have been kept in the spot where he had the most success. Its not his fault the FO and Bobby Valentine fucked him up.

He isn't a closer, he wasn't a closer and he won't ever be a closer.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You are going to completely disregard what Aceves did a year ago?

You do realize he was severely misused, and then overused correct? He threw 84 meaningless innings and was warming up almost every day in games that a closer had no impact in.

Im not defending his late season actions, but had the Sox just signed Papelbon and kept Bard in the bullpen, Aceves could have been kept in the spot where he had the most success. Its not his fault the FO and Bobby Valentine fucked him up.

He isn't a closer, he wasn't a closer and he won't ever be a closer.

And it's his fault for going nuts because the team didn't want him closing anymore and he threw a hissy fit. I don't want those kinds of players on the team. I can understand getting mad because you're competitive, but the way he reacted was ridiculous.

I'm not forgetting what he did. I'm saying I'd rather have Haren than Aceves.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The bolded parts are massive speculation. And also, Marmol was reportedly willing to waive his no-trade. Now think about it, the Cubs pulled the "horrible" Marmol back and the trade didn't go through. Doesn't that raise some red flags?

Not really, the Angels were taking on $9.8mm in Marmol's salary, and then they were throwing the Cubs $3mm to essentially even out the money on the deals. It's not speculation that if they received a guy making $1-2mm that they would throw less money. In fact, they would likely throw more money.

I agree that it was very strange on the Cubs part to pull back. I had certainly not heard any indications that Marmol would waive his NTC, either.

And if you're looking at red flags, you can't overlook at the fact that the Angels were essentially ok with paying Marmol $12.5mm but not ok with paying Haren $15.5mm. That seems like the bigger red flag in all of this.

By the way, when you say 'the "horrible" Marmol', it makes it seem as though you think he's not horrible, but I know you're much smarter than that, so I'm not sure what the point of that was.

[User Name?]

Not really, the Angels were taking on $9.8mm in Marmol's salary, and then they were throwing the Cubs $3mm to essentially even out the money on the deals. It's not speculation that if they received a guy making $1-2mm that they would throw less money. In fact, they would likely throw more money.

I agree that it was very strange on the Cubs part to pull back. I had certainly not heard any indications that Marmol would waive his NTC, either.

And if you're looking at red flags, you can't overlook at the fact that the Angels were essentially ok with paying Marmol $12.5mm but not ok with paying Haren $15.5mm. That seems like the bigger red flag in all of this.

By the way, when you say 'the "horrible" Marmol', it makes it seem as though you think he's not horrible, but I know you're much smarter than that, so I'm not sure what the point of that was.

Apparently i am smarter than that, because it seems to me that A) Even though he was so bad last year, Marmol still has electric stuff and is a player the Angels were actually targeting, do we know better than them here at TalkSox? B ) They were pretty desperate to get rid of Haren, but not desperate enough to give him away as a dump, and they had plenty of opportunities to do that.

I think you're smart enough to know that a lot of these assumptions simply don't make any sense.

[User Name?]

You are going to completely disregard what Aceves did a year ago?

You do realize he was severely misused, and then overused correct? He threw 84 meaningless innings and was warming up almost every day in games that a closer had no impact in.

Im not defending his late season actions, but had the Sox just signed Papelbon and kept Bard in the bullpen, Aceves could have been kept in the spot where he had the most success. Its not his fault the FO and Bobby Valentine fucked him up.

He isn't a closer, he wasn't a closer and he won't ever be a closer.

Why do you keep sounding the Papelbon horn? That contract is still an atrocity. The Sox' real mistake was not being smart enough to sign a better short-term option like Nathan, who worked out pretty well for Texas.

[mvp 78]

Why do you keep sounding the Papelbon horn? That contract is still an atrocity. The Sox' real mistake was not being smart enough to sign a better short-term option like Nathan, who worked out pretty well for Texas.

But they could have been a 4th place team if they just overpaid Paps. Maybe even got to 75 wins!

[iortiz]

You are going to completely disregard what Aceves did a year ago?

You do realize he was severely misused, and then overused correct? He threw 84 meaningless innings and was warming up almost every day in games that a closer had no impact in.

Im not defending his late season actions, but had the Sox just signed Papelbon and kept Bard in the bullpen, Aceves could have been kept in the spot where he had the most success. Its not his fault the FO and Bobby Valentine fucked him up.

He isn't a closer, he wasn't a closer and he won't ever be a closer.

This 100 times!