Mark Buehrle?

[TheKilo]

He's a FA after this year. Do you think the struggling White Sox would be willing to part with Mark Buehrle?

I really think the Sox are going to make a run for this guy. The White Sox need some offense, so I don't know who the Sox could package to try to get him.

The question is, would Buehrle be a good fit here? Could we realistically see Buehrle in a Red Sox uni by the end of the year?

[schillingouttheks]

I would like to rent Buehrle if the price is right. I worry about lefties at Fenway but Buehrle's interesting.

Kenny Williams on PTI earlier today said that if his team was falling out of contention at the trade deadline he'd be willing to move some of his veterans if it came down to that. I think it's realistic, we're just going to have to hope that the White Sox continue to suck throughout the year. If not, forget about it.

[Coco's Disciples]

It's definitely a possibilty. The White Sox centerfielder right now is Luis Terrero, and it is normally Darin Erstad (hurt). Both suck, despite Terrero's solid performance in 53 at bats. I think they would definitely be open to acquiring either Coco Crisp or Wily Mo Pena to fill in that slot.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I wouldnt give up a Buchholz/Bowden/Lester/Ellsbury/Anderson type prospect for him, if they were interested in WMP+ others then I'd be on board. He was almost traded for Coco last year (though Coco wouldnt nearly be enough now) so I suppose the Red Sox do have interest in him as a pitcher.

[ksushi]

Agreed, Buch/Lester/Anderson especially can't be moved for a one year guy and probably not for anything out there even if they are under contract through '08 and beyond. Especially not Bucholz. If Buch gets traded I'll eat my dog on youtube, it won't happen.

I would trade Ellsbury for Buehrle though. Buehrle is a very solid pitcher, he can give you a good amount of innings and it will be quality too. Ellsbury represents an unknown, an unknown that could very good, but also is an easily acquired commodity and this would be the right time to deal him with Jones,Suzuki, Rowand and Hunter hitting free agency assuming Coco really is what he has been so far this year, and doesn't improve because with the defense he plays he might be the best case scenario if he finds his way at the plate.

[example1]

I don't think it is unreasonable to think the White Sox would deal Buehrle for Wily Mo Pena. With Jermaine Dye moving next year, Pena's salary and age, I could see this as a decent move for both teams.

I don't actually like Buehrle that much for the Sox, but having him as a 4 or 5 (or 3 or 4 depending on if Schilling makes it or not) wouldn't hurt.

Before I get attacked for saying this, please know that I value WMP pretty highly (given what we've seen from him--or haven't seen from him, that is). I think he still has 25+ HR potential for someone.

[example1]

Agreed, Buch/Lester/Anderson especially can't be moved for a one year guy and probably not for anything out there even if they are under contract through '08 and beyond. Especially not Bucholz. If Buch gets traded I'll eat my dog on youtube, it won't happen.

Nice. I totally agree. He is not going anywhere.



I would trade Ellsbury for Buehrle though. Buehrle is a very solid pitcher, he can give you a good amount of innings and it will be quality too. Ellsbury represents an unknown, an unknown that could very good, but also is an easily acquired commodity and this would be the right time to deal him with Jones,Suzuki, Rowand and Hunter hitting free agency assuming Coco really is what he has been so far this year, and doesn't improve because with the defense he plays he might be the best case scenario if he finds his way at the plate.

I wouldn't trade Ellsbury for Buehrle. Do you really think he's a replaceable commodity? I would say that other than Damon this team hasn't had a bona fide leadoff hitter/centerfielder in a long time. They tried to get Crisp to do that job and it didn't work. I think Ellsbury can do as well as Crisp as a rookie, and will only improve from there.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't think it is unreasonable to think the White Sox would deal Buehrle for Wily Mo Pena. With Jermaine Dye moving next year, Pena's salary and age, I could see this as a decent move for both teams.

I don't actually like Buehrle that much for the Sox, but having him as a 4 or 5 (or 3 or 4 depending on if Schilling makes it or not) wouldn't hurt.

Before I get attacked for saying this, please know that I value WMP pretty highly (given what we've seen from him--or haven't seen from him, that is). I think he still has 25+ HR potential for someone.

I'd pull the trigger on that deal very quickly, but I think the White Sox are going to want a little more than just Wily Mo Pena.

[BSN07]

WMP/Crisp + 1 decent prospect and possibly 1 low level prospect, for a half season rental would be more then fair.

I'd like them to get Buherle and then sign him for a few years if he does well. He shouldn't be anymore expensive the Schilling would be.

08 rotation would look like this:
1. Beckett
2. Matsuzaka
3. Buehrle
4. Lester
5. FA/Bucholz

Thats a rotation I wouldn't mind seeing at all. I think Buerhle might sign for 4 yrs 48-55M which isn't bad for a pitcher of his ability.

[ksushi]

I think we have a bona fide leadoff guy in Youkilis. I'm of the school that batting order should be determined by descending order of on-base percentage. We also have our center fielder. I trust 100% of everything peter gammons says, and he says Crisp never fully healed after last years finger injury until the off-season, so I'm willing to give him a pass. But, this year so far has been tough, but he has shown signs of coming around. Especially lately, now he has the nation behind him, my best case scenario is probably using Ellsbury's trade value when Crisp shows he can be our CF of the future.

[MDF3530]

I think that my White Sox are going to ride out the season with him and try to re-sign him in the offseason (Kenny & Reinsdorf don't like to sign anyone to extensions during the season). They talked to his agent last offseason and tried to get an extension done then. The major sticking point was not cash, but length. Reinsdorf doesn't like to sign pitchers to 4- or 5-year deals because of the probablility of injury or the pitcher mailing it in the last year or two. Buehrle, through his agent, has promised the White Sox that he'll give them the opportunity to match whatever offers he receives. From what I've heard, Mark is a man of his word.

My prediction is that next year, he'll be with one of two teams situated in towns along Interstate 55: the White Sox or St. Louis. The Cardinals are dying for pitching help, they have the cash and Mark grew up a fan of them.

[schillingouttheks]

I think the Cardinals will end up signing Curt Schilling.

[example1]

I think we have a bona fide leadoff guy in Youkilis. I'm of the school that batting order should be determined by descending order of on-base percentage. We also have our center fielder. I trust 100% of everything peter gammons says, and he says Crisp never fully healed after last years finger injury until the off-season, so I'm willing to give him a pass. But, this year so far has been tough, but he has shown signs of coming around. Especially lately, now he has the nation behind him, my best case scenario is probably using Ellsbury's trade value when Crisp shows he can be our CF of the future.

One thing I haven't seen broken down is how much of a difference speed makes in the equation. Not giving up outs is seen as the best way of scoring runs and youkilis avoids making outs very well.

But what is the difference in run production between a guy with a .415 OBP (say, Youkilis) and a guy with .385 OBP (say, Ellsbury). If Ellsbury can steal bases and score from first on a double, and score from second on ALL singles, then when it comes to overall run production is there proof that Youkilis would be more valuable? I'm just curious.

With the players the sox are likely to have hitting 2nd in the future (Youkilis and Pedroia) don't you think there are a lot of run-scoring doubles and runs scored from a guy with the speed of Ellsbury leading off?

OBP is an important trait in determining whether a hitter will score a run. But it has nothing to do with whether that hitter then scores once they are on first base, does it?

Ellsbury is a leadoff hitter. Youkilis is an excellent option for a leadoff hitter, but it is unnecessary if ellsbury is as good as he seems.

[CrespoBlows]

One thing I haven't seen broken down is how much of a difference speed makes in the equation. Not giving up outs is seen as the best way of scoring runs and youkilis avoids making outs very well.

But what is the difference in run production between a guy with a .415 OBP (say, Youkilis) and a guy with .385 OBP (say, Ellsbury). If Ellsbury can steal bases and score from first on a double, and score from second on ALL singles, then when it comes to overall run production is there proof that Youkilis would be more valuable? I'm just curious.

With the players the sox are likely to have hitting 2nd in the future (Youkilis and Pedroia) don't you think there are a lot of run-scoring doubles and runs scored from a guy with the speed of Ellsbury leading off?

OBP is an important trait in determining whether a hitter will score a run. But it has nothing to do with whether that hitter then scores once they are on first base, does it?

Ellsbury is a leadoff hitter. Youkilis is an excellent option for a leadoff hitter, but it is unnecessary if ellsbury is as good as he seems.

If Ellsbury continues to steal at a 86% success rate, he'd probably add about 5 to 6 runs to the Red Sox offense.

The average baserunner will attempt an extra base 46.2 % of the time, and will usually succeed 91.6% of the time. To compare, Rod Carew in 1977, attempted to take an extra base 74.3% of the time, and made it 98.2% of the time.

In all, he added 9.3 runs due to his legs, which is short of one win. (10 runs = 1 win) That's considered historic.

If you use Ellsbury's career number of 76.3% success rate. He's likely not going to add much with his base running. He may even hurt the Red Sox, because he's got a lot of great hitters batting behind him.

[example1]

I guess the question is how those 5 to 6 runs compares to the number of runs from Youkilis's extra .040 in OBP.

[CrespoBlows]

I guess the question is how those 5 to 6 runs compares to the number of runs from Youkilis's extra .040 in OBP.

You have to factor in Youkilis' slugging, as well.

A team will generally score the most runs if they bat their OBP guys in descending order. Guys who can hit for power, and avoid outs, should be given the most plate appearances.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Im definetly in favor of leading Ellsbury off next year and Youk second. Ellsbury to begin with has great plate discipline and could very well see him eventually putting up a .300/.380/.420 line (not necessarily in his rookie year though) and potentially steal 40-50 bases. Having two on base guys in front of Ortiz and Manny will score a lot of runs obviously. I like Youk in the 2nd spot since he has some power and anything hit in a gap or a single with Ellsbury on base will score him with his speed. Id set the lineup up like next year:
1. Ellsbury CF
2. Youkillis 3B
3. Ortiz DH
4. Ramirez LF
5. Teixeira 1B :D
6. Drew RF
7. Tek C
8. Lugo SS
9. Pedroia 2B

[CrespoBlows]

Im definetly in favor of leading Ellsbury off next year and Youk second. Ellsbury to begin with has great plate discipline and could very well see him eventually putting up a .300/.380/.420 line (not necessarily in his rookie year though) and potentially steal 40-50 bases. Having two on base guys in front of Ortiz and Manny will score a lot of runs obviously. I like Youk in the 2nd spot since he has some power and anything hit in a gap or a single with Ellsbury on base will score him with his speed. Id set the lineup up like next year:
1. Ellsbury CF
2. Youkillis 3B
3. Ortiz DH
4. Ramirez LF
5. Teixeira 1B :D
6. Drew RF
7. Tek C
8. Lugo SS
9. Pedroia 2B

This, I agree with.

I'd rather go with this lineup, however.

1. Ellsbury, CF
2. Youkills, 1B
3. Rodriguez, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Ramirez, LF
6. Drew, RF
7. Pedroia, 2B
8. Varitek, C
9. Lugo, SS

[example1]

You have to factor in Youkilis' slugging, as well.

A team will generally score the most runs if they bat their OBP guys in descending order. Guys who can hit for power, and avoid outs, should be given the most plate appearances.

Statistical norms are based on the average team. Any team that Ellsbury would be hitting in front of would undoubtedly do more of the good things statistically than the average team. So, there will be more walks behind him (Pedroia and Youkilis), better power behind those walks (Ortiz, Ramirez) and better power behind those walks (Drew, Lowell, Varitek) than the average. In other words, more will happen when the runner is on base than with the average team. This is especially true if Youkilis is one of the guys doing the hitting. I would much rather have Youkilis trying to drive Ellsbury in than Ellsbury trying to drive Youkilis in.

Despite their reliance on sabermetric principals I don't think the Sox are done looking for a high OBP, high speed guy to lead off. I don't think it is anti-sabermetric, it is just the best of both worlds. I don't think we're talking about leading off with juan pierre or scott podsednik here, and if that's what Ellsbury becomes then Youkilis is certainly the better option.

[Rdsxmbnt]

This, I agree with.

I'd rather go with this lineup, however.

1. Ellsbury, CF
2. Youkills, 1B
3. Rodriguez, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Ramirez, LF
6. Drew, RF
7. Pedroia, 2B
8. Varitek, C
9. Lugo, SS

Works also :D

I like the idea of moving Pedroia up to #7 and bump Tek and Lugo down a spot each also.

[example1]

This, I agree with.

I'd rather go with this lineup, however.

1. Ellsbury, CF
2. Youkills, 1B
3. Rodriguez, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Ramirez, LF
6. Drew, RF
7. Pedroia, 2B
8. Varitek, C
9. Lugo, SS

Don't you think that if A-Rod leaves NY he'll be leaving as a SS? And getting paid as a SS?

[CrespoBlows]

Statistical norms are based on the average team. Any team that Ellsbury would be hitting in front of would undoubtedly do more of the good things statistically than the average team. So, there will be more walks behind him (Pedroia and Youkilis), better power behind those walks (Ortiz, Ramirez) and better power behind those walks (Drew, Lowell, Varitek) than the average. In other words, more will happen when the runner is on base than with the average team. This is especially true if Youkilis is one of the guys doing the hitting. I would much rather have Youkilis trying to drive Ellsbury in than Ellsbury trying to drive Youkilis in.

How about Pedroia trying to drive Youkilis in?

1. Youkilis, 1B
2. Pedroia, 2B
3. Rodriguez, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Ramirez, LF
6. Drew, RF
7. Varitek, C
8. Ellsbury, CF
9. Lugo, SS

?????

You could arrange this lineup, in so many different ways, and it would still be an ownage machine.

[schillingouttheks]

Or this:

Ellsbury, CF
Youkilis, 3B
Rodriguez, SS
Ortiz, DH
Ramirez, LF
Texeira, 1B
Drew, RF
Varitek, C
Pedroia, 2B

I can wish. And for the record, I realize that this is pretty unrealistic. EDIT: VERY unrealistic.

If you have an opportunity for this lineup, you find somewhere else for Lugo, lol.

[CrespoBlows]

Don't you think that if A-Rod leaves NY he'll be leaving as a SS? And getting paid as a SS?

I don't know if he can play SS, anymore. He's been below average at 3B in his tenure with the Yankees, which by all accounts is probably the easier position to play.

[example1]

How about Pedroia trying to drive Youkilis in?

1. Youkilis, 1B
2. Pedroia, 2B
3. Rodriguez, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Ramirez, LF
6. Drew, RF
7. Varitek, C
8. Ellsbury, CF
9. Lugo, SS

?????

You could arrange this lineup, in so many different ways, and it would still be an ownage machine.


As soon as the player is on base I want it to be Ellsbury. He will be the best baserunner on the team by far, and probably one of the best in the league when he's through. He should be able to get on base at a .380 clip every year once he gets going and he should be one of the most exciting players in baseball once he's on and runs will be a product of it.

Imagine a pitcher having to try to hold Ellsbury on with Youkilis or Ortiz at the dish in a 1 run game!

[BSN07]

Lets not forget that Youk has stated recently, he not comfortable in the lead off spot.

[ksushi]

I don't know if he can play SS, anymore. He's been below average at 3B in his tenure with the Yankees, which by all accounts is probably the easier position to play.

Not at all. Have you ever played either position at a competitive level? They take two entirely different skill sets. One is purely a reflex position where balls are smoked at you every game, the other position runs the infield and is set back more. The balls aren't hit as hard, but its probably the most crucial position on the infield. A-rod plays third like a shortstop, thats why he sucks at it. Things aren't black and white, one position isn't easier to play than another, they're all hard, but require different approaches.

[CrespoBlows]

Not at all. Have you ever played either position at a competitive level? They take two entirely different skill sets. One is purely a reflex position where balls are smoked at you every game, the other position runs the infield and is set back more. The balls aren't hit as hard, but its probably the most crucial position on the infield. A-rod plays third like a shortstop, thats why he sucks at it. Things aren't black and white, one position isn't easier to play than another, they're all hard, but require different approaches.

I was a second baseman. I don't have the arm for 3B or SS.

You need more range to cover ground as a shortstop. Why do you think Ripken was moved away from SS?

From all accounts, Rodriguez doesn't have the range anymore to move back to shortstop, which would be the greatest concern.

He's playing solid defense at 3B this year, why mess with that?

[example1]

Not at all. Have you ever played either position at a competitive level? They take two entirely different skill sets. One is purely a reflex position where balls are smoked at you every game, the other position runs the infield and is set back more. The balls aren't hit as hard, but its probably the most crucial position on the infield. A-rod plays third like a shortstop, thats why he sucks at it. Things aren't black and white, one position isn't easier to play than another, they're all hard, but require different approaches.

They do take entirely different skill sets. I was an all state 3B in HS (small state, not good enough to play beyond Div III, which wasn't worth the time and money it takes to go to college, yada yada... long story).

Anyway, I always felt that 3B was all about the arm and the ability to put your body in front of balls that people absolutely TURNED on. I don't think that the balls were necessarily hit harder to 3B than SS, but the distance is greater and the reaction time is--obviously--longer. Given that reaction time athleticism becomes a key asset at SS, as does the arm.

I don't know about A-Rod's current ability to play SS. I do know that he won a Gold Glove the year before he became a Yankee, and I see no reason to believe he has deteriorated any more quickly than Jeter except for the reps that Jeter has had at SS since. A team like the Cubs or Angels would love to have A-Rod at SS. I would demand more money and have a higher value as a SS.

[example1]

How about Pedroia trying to drive Youkilis in?

1. Youkilis, 1B
2. Pedroia, 2B
3. Rodriguez, 3B
4. Ortiz, DH
5. Ramirez, LF
6. Drew, RF
7. Varitek, C
8. Ellsbury, CF
9. Lugo, SS

?????

You could arrange this lineup, in so many different ways, and it would still be an ownage machine.

Jose Reyes had a career .338 OBP in 5 minor league seasons. This season he has a .399 OBP, easily a career high (last year he had a GREAT season, with a .354 OBP). In all those minor league seasons he never ONCE had a season or stint with a minor league team with an OBP above .359 (as a 17 year old in the rookie-league).

While "struggling" at AAA, Ellsbury has a .362 OBP; and between AA and AAA he has a .408 OBP.

I think people here are knowingly being conservative about his speed. This kid has amazing speed. Not 40 SB territory, but 60-70 SB territory.

In 162 games, at the rate he stole bases in A, AA, and AAA, Ellsbury would have had 62, 84 and 73 stolen-bases respectively. The catchers will get better, but not THAT much better; especially given that Ellsbury is bound to become a better baserunner with experience.

I leadoff with a guy like that. The desire to put youkilis at the top even if Ellsbury has a .380 OBP seems like a cute sabermetric move, but I don't think the Sox would do it.

[CrespoBlows]

Jose Reyes had a career .338 OBP in 5 minor league seasons. This season he has a .399 OBP, easily a career high (last year he had a GREAT season, with a .354 OBP). In all those minor league seasons he never ONCE had a season or stint with a minor league team with an OBP above .359 (as a 17 year old in the rookie-league).

Cases like Reyes, happen very, very rarely, but with Ellsbury's track record, it's very encouraging that he'll be an OBP machine.



While "struggling" at AAA, Ellsbury has a .362 OBP; and between AA and AAA he has a .408 OBP.

I think people here are knowingly being conservative about his speed. This kid has amazing speed. Not 40 SB territory, but 60-70 SB territory.

In 162 games, at the rate he stole bases in A, AA, and AAA, Ellsbury would have had 62, 84 and 73 stolen-bases respectively. The catchers will get better, but not THAT much better; especially given that Ellsbury is bound to become a better baserunner with experience.

I leadoff with a guy like that. The desire to put youkilis at the top even if Ellsbury has a .380 OBP seems like a cute sabermetric move, but I don't think the Sox would do it.

How many times would Ellsbury get caught?

The break-even rate is at about 75%. That number is probably higher, because of the team he plays for. I like Ellsbury, because he might touch a .400 OBP at his peak, and his glove is going to save a shit load of runs. His stolen bases are just a small touch of excitement.

[example1]

Cases like Reyes, happen very, very rarely, but with Ellsbury's track record, it's very encouraging that he'll be an OBP machine.


Indeed, it is. An OBP machine.



How many times would Ellsbury get caught?


A: 23 (73% success-rate)
AA: 21 (80%)
AAA: 15 (82%)

Reyes had 79% last year.



The break-even rate is at about 75%. That number is probably higher, because of the team he plays for.

One would have to weigh the loss when he gets thrown out because the team behind him is very good, but you also have to weigh the benefit of having a good team which can hit more singles, doubles and triples to get him around than the average team too.


I like Ellsbury, because he might touch a .400 OBP at his peak, and his glove is going to save a shit load of runs. His stolen bases are just a small touch of excitement.

They are one of the numerous, but less significant things to get excited about. They do, however, make the difference when talking about where he hits in the lineup. He is and will continue to be a leadoff hitter.

[ksushi]

I was a second baseman. I don't have the arm for 3B or SS.

You need more range to cover ground as a shortstop. Why do you think Ripken was moved away from SS?

From all accounts, Rodriguez doesn't have the range anymore to move back to shortstop, which would be the greatest concern.

He's playing solid defense at 3B this year, why mess with that?

Range at third is different from range at short because at short there is time to react to the ball, while at third it really gets on you fast. I went from centerfield to third base and I felt like I had cement blocks on my feet playing third because really you can't take steps to the ball a lot of time, you just dive either way. When you see a guy like Lugo at short, diving after taking 2 or 1 or no steps that might be an indication that the guy has no range, but at third its really just the position. No one knows how well he will play at short until he works out there again.

[Rdsxmbnt]

FWIW:



The Red Sox are so interested in landing Mark Buehrle and keeping him away from the Yankees, Boston is reportedly willing to offer him a contract extension in the five-year range.

The Red Sox have a farm system loaded with players in whom the White Sox are interested. SP Clay Buchholz, SP Michael Bowden, OF Jacoby Ellsbury and SS Jed Lowrie are some players Chicago has expressed interest in.


I wouldnt deal Buchholz and probaly not Ellsbury. I'd think about dealing Bowden if Buehrle signed the extension.

[BSN07]

Try to get a deal done without Buchholz, Bowden, and Ellsbury. If you can get a deal done like that(even tho is tould be resonably harder) you have to pull the trigger if hes willing to sign a contract extension they offer him.

[riverside sluggers]

Bowden and Lowrie I would def do. You would have a proven (playoff tested) 28 year old lefty. Getting Buehrle would also relieve the Sox that they wouldnt have to ante up to Curt's demands if they become desperate this offseason. A potential rotation down the road of Beckett, Dice-K, Buehrle, Bucholz, and Lester is very promising. Thats if the Sox would be able to extend his contract when he is traded

[Rdsxmbnt]

I like the RH-LH balance in that rotation also. A ton of potential there also as Beckett/Dice/Buchholz have ace potential and Beckett is arguably there now with Dice picking up steam. Buehrle is a legit #2/#3 and Lester is a potential #2/#3. Make it happen theo!

[CrespoBlows]

I want to like Buehrle. He works fast, and he usually pitches into the 6th inning, but he struck out 98 batters in 200 IP last year.

Am I wrong to expect a regression? EDIT* No, I'm not. Career BABIP is near .290, this year it's .252. I expect somewhat of a slide, but he still eats a shit load of innings.

I'd give up Bowden for him, but not Buchholtz.

Bowden, Lowrie, and Moss?

[schillingouttheks]

So what happens for this year's rotation then? Who gets moved to the bullpen? Tavarez has been pitching better and more consistently than Schilling or Wakefield...

[Beckett95]

wait for schilling to come back healthy, then move wakefield or tavarez to the pen

[schillingouttheks]

This also means that we probably won't be seeing Lester soon unless someone goes down with an injury.

So then, if we do land Buehrle with his 5-year extension, the '08 rotation could look like this (I REALLY want the Sox to go after Sabathia or Zambrano...either one):

Beckett
Matsuzaka
Zambrano/Sabathia
Buehrle
Lester

...the only thing is that I want to see Buchholz in the '08 rotation.

[Coco's Disciples]

On the ESPNEWS ticker, it says that the ChiSox expect to trade Buehrle. I'd love to get him. Can't have too many arms.

[riverside sluggers]

This also means that we probably won't be seeing Lester soon unless someone goes down with an injury.

So then, if we do land Buehrle with his 5-year extension, the '08 rotation could look like this (I REALLY want the Sox to go after Sabathia or Zambrano...either one):

Beckett
Matsuzaka
Zambrano/Sabathia
Buehrle
Lester

...the only thing is that I want to see Buchholz in the '08 rotation.

Under that plan, Lester would have to be moved so Bucholz could have an opening

[schillingouttheks]

Under that plan, Lester would have to be moved so Bucholz could have an opening

I'm not sure that I'd mind moving Lester so Buchholz could have an opening. If we sign a big-name FA SP like Zambrano or Sabathia, I'll take those veterans and Buchholz in the 5 spot over finding a spot for Lester.

[Coco's Disciples]

BUEHRLE TO BREWERS?

The Brewers, leading the NL Central by 8 ? games, are kicking around the idea of trading for White Sox left-hander Mark Buehrle — a move that, while a longshot, would make sense.

The addition of Buehrle would give the Brewers a potentially formidable postseason rotation — Buerhle, right-hander Ben Sheets, left-hander Chris Capuano and righty Jeff Suppan.

The move also would enable the Brewers to move righty Claudio Vargas or Dave Bush to the bullpen — Bush was a closer at Wake Forest.

Here are the obstacles:

Approximately 10 teams are on Buehrle, including the Mets, Braves, Mariners and Buehrle's expected long-term choice, the Cardinals.

Buehrle, a potential free agent earning $9.5 million, would increase the Brewers' payroll by approximately $3 million if they acquired him on July 31.

The price in young talent might be prohibitive for the Brewers, who would resist giving up third baseman Ryan Braun or right-hander Yovani Gallardo.
The Brewers, though, should be open to trading other prospects. They could recoup two high draft picks by offering Buehrle salary arbitration — an offer he surely would reject in order to sign a lucrative free-agent contract.

As for the payroll increase, the Brewers probably could absorb it — their average home attendance has jumped from 28,835 last season to 32,949 this season. Owner Mark Attanasio has said in the past that the team has payroll flexibility.

Per Ken Rosenthal

[SCM33]

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/7949

[MDF3530]

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070624&content_id=2046643&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

[Beckett95]

I think Bowden, Lowrie and Murphy or Moss could and should get it done

[ksushi]

I think we could do it with Gabbard, Murphy/Moss and Hansen. Any word on what the package could be?

Counter Offer: that might be low balling, but not a bad initial offer. Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Murphy gets it done hands down and I'd be fine with that.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

This seems to be picking up steam. I'm good with a trade that doesn't include Jacoby Ellsbury or Clay Buchholz. Those are the gems of our very talented minor league system. There are many other players who are good players and could contribute now in the major leagues. Brandon Moss, David Murphy, Kason Gabbard, Craig Hansen, Manny Delcarmen, Edgar Martinez, David Pauley, Jed Lowrie, Coco Crisp, Wily Mo Pena....I would go as far as Michael Bowden but I'm nervous about him. At 20 years old (and I've seen him pitch) he is well ahead of the game and will turn into a real good pitcher. Better than Mark Buehrle?....no I don't think so but Clay Buchholz certainly could be...so stay away from him.

[TedWilliams101]

I like Manny Delcarmen, Hansen, and Gabbard, but I like Buehrle more. I don't want to give up Ellsbury or Buchholz. Or Bowden.

[Coco's Disciples]

You might very well have to give up Bowden. I'm hearing Bowden and Lowrie and maybe someone else could get the job done. I like Lowrie a lot, and it would be tough to part with the most advanced middle infielder in the farm system with Lugo sucking it up in the majors. But you have to do it for Buehrle.

The rotation would be pretty nice if we do get him.
This season:
1. Josh Beckett
2. Daisuke Matsuzaka
3. Mark Buehrle
4. Curt Schilling
5. Tim Wakefield

Next season:
1. Josh Beckett
2. Daisuke Matsuzaka
3. Mark Buehrle
4. Jon Lester
5. Clay Buchholz/Tim Wakefield?

[jacksonianmarch]

I dunno. Buerhle is an interesting fellow. The white sox may have a partner with the Mutts if the Mutts offer Gomez or Milledge. To beat that package, the sox would have to include either Ellsbury or Buchholz. If the Mets arent serious with that offer, then Bowden and another prospect will be required. He wont come cheap since he is 28, and if the sox get a window to negotiate an extension, you better believe the white sox will ask for a ton. I dont think he comes to Boston btw. I just dont see Theo outclassing Minaya on this one. And if he does, I have a feeling that the Buchholz lovers on the site will picket Theo's offices.

[Coco's Disciples]

I dunno. Buerhle is an interesting fellow. The white sox may have a partner with the Mutts if the Mutts offer Gomez or Milledge. To beat that package, the sox would have to include either Ellsbury or Buchholz. If the Mets arent serious with that offer, then Bowden and another prospect will be required. He wont come cheap since he is 28, and if the sox get a window to negotiate an extension, you better believe the white sox will ask for a ton. I dont think he comes to Boston btw. I just dont see Theo outclassing Minaya on this one. And if he does, I have a feeling that the Buchholz lovers on the site will picket Theo's offices.

If the Mets offer Gomez/Milledge, they can have him. I would not want to give Buchholz or Ellsbury for him.

[a700hitter]

There will be plenty of room for Bucholz when he is ready. in the meantime, if the Red Sox can get Buerhle without giving up a blue-chipper, they should do it.

[ksushi]

I would give up bowden, looking down the road, we might not have a need for him, or at least not such a pressing need that we can see at this point to justify keeping him instead of acquiring a guy who would very possibly put us over the top. Bucholz is our absolutely untradable guy. Ellsbury is close, because great leadoff hitters are rare, but I don't cry over losing him. Bowden might make sense for us to deal. I don't know off-hand anyone can offer a package that tops a Bowden, Murphy, and Gabbard deal.

Bowden is the youngest player in AA, and has all the ceiling in the world. Thing is, Beckett, Dice-K, Lester and Bucholz are the guys ahead of him in the "pitchers of the future" department. Thats stiff competition and gives us a little bit of a surplus here of young pitching talent (jesus christ did I just say that?). Dealing Bowden away for just anyone would be a mistake, but if you're talking about bringing in a pitcher like Buehrle, I think its due dilligence to at least kick the tires. Buehrle gives us big time schilling insurance and a scary front 3 in the playoffs that might even be better than the Schilling, Pedro and Lowe 1-2-3 punch we had that year we when we did pretty good. When was that again? Eh, minor detail.

Point is, Buehrle is worth parting with prospects. Looking ahead to the future is important, but when we're looking at guys like Buch, Lester, Dice-K, Papelbon etc. I think we might be ok there. Buehrle is a rock. I'm in favor of this one big time.

[example1]

I would give up bowden, looking down the road, we might not have a need for him, or at least not such a pressing need that we can see at this point to justify keeping him instead of acquiring a guy who would very possibly put us over the top. Bucholz is our absolutely untradable guy. Ellsbury is close, because great leadoff hitters are rare, but I don't cry over losing him. Bowden might make sense for us to deal. I don't know off-hand anyone can offer a package that tops a Bowden, Murphy, and Gabbard deal.

Bowden is the youngest player in AA, and has all the ceiling in the world. Thing is, Beckett, Dice-K, Lester and Bucholz are the guys ahead of him in the "pitchers of the future" department. Thats stiff competition and gives us a little bit of a surplus here of young pitching talent (jesus christ did I just say that?). Dealing Bowden away for just anyone would be a mistake, but if you're talking about bringing in a pitcher like Buehrle, I think its due dilligence to at least kick the tires. Buehrle gives us big time schilling insurance and a scary front 3 in the playoffs that might even be better than the Schilling, Pedro and Lowe 1-2-3 punch we had that year we when we did pretty good. When was that again? Eh, minor detail.

Point is, Buehrle is worth parting with prospects. Looking ahead to the future is important, but when we're looking at guys like Buch, Lester, Dice-K, Papelbon etc. I think we might be ok there. Buehrle is a rock. I'm in favor of this one big time.

I wonder if the sox are convinced that Lester can come back. Bowden may have a higher upside if he can put it together and the team could wait. They are both great pitchers though. Buehrle would be a tremendous addition to the team in the #4 spot this year. I agree with just about everyone else here: if you can do it without Buchholz and Ellsbury and possibly Bowden then pull the string. If you can get a guy of Buehrle's caliber for a AA prospect (as the centerpiece that is) then he has already given you value. I haven't really seen Buehrle throw this season but he looked pretty good the two games I did watch. He has been great in the past against good competition.

[a700hitter]

If kenny Williams is convinced that the 2007 White Sox will not be able to compete for Wild Card, he'll get the most value for Buerhle if he trades him soon. If he waits until the trading deadline, teams will not pay as much for him. He'd be a huge addition, but I think the desperation of the Mets will result in them being the most aggressive trading partners.

[a700hitter]

I wonder if the sox are convinced that Lester can come back. Come back? He never established himself as a consistent reliable major league starter.

[ksushi]

I wonder if the sox are convinced that Lester can come back. Bowden may have a higher upside if he can put it together and the team could wait. They are both great pitchers though. Buehrle would be a tremendous addition to the team in the #4 spot this year. I agree with just about everyone else here: if you can do it without Buchholz and Ellsbury and possibly Bowden then pull the string. If you can get a guy of Buehrle's caliber for a AA prospect (as the centerpiece that is) then he has already given you value. I haven't really seen Buehrle throw this season but he looked pretty good the two games I did watch. He has been great in the past against good competition.

Given his AAA numbers, and the nature of the setbacks and potential for full recovery (and the signs that he has made a full recovery with the fastball coming back and the weight) I would say I feel pretty comfortable talking about Lester as part of the Sox going forward. He has been inconsistent, but I know the pitch count is something that has hindered his performance in the past and has always been impatient with it. Regardless, his AAA numbers are solid right now. I think Lester is back to being Lester.

[jacksonianmarch]

Given his AAA numbers, and the nature of the setbacks and potential for full recovery (and the signs that he has made a full recovery with the fastball coming back and the weight) I would say I feel pretty comfortable talking about Lester as part of the Sox going forward. He has been inconsistent, but I know the pitch count is something that has hindered his performance in the past and has always been impatient with it. Regardless, his AAA numbers are solid right now. I think Lester is back to being Lester.

Lester needs to prove he can locate in the majors. Because when he came up, he nibbled way too much, fell behind in counts and then was scored upon regularly. Maybe Farrell has the golden touch and can make a minor miracle with Lester as well.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06252007/sports/yankees/rocket_gives_rare_dose_of_relief_yankees_george_ki ng.htm

White Sox are scouting the yankees as well. If they deal Joba, Cashman should be shot. Kennedy, maybe. Not Joba.

[inkman]

I like Manny Delcarmen, Hansen, and Gabbard, but I like Buehrle more.

I would also like to give up a pile of snot for a top of the rotation guy as well. :harhar:

[BSN07]

Get Buherle without giving up Buchholz, Bowden or Ellsbury.

08 rotation would be

1.Beckett
2.Matsuzaka
3.Buherle
4.Lester
5.Buchholz

Let Wake retire, that way we can ditch Dougie. If Buchholz doesn't seem ready at the beginning of the season, you always have JT or another cheap veteran #5 starter.

[CrespoBlows]

Get Buherle without giving up Buchholz, Bowden or Ellsbury.

08 rotation would be

1.Beckett
2.Matsuzaka
3.Buherle
4.Lester
5.Buchholz

Let Wake retire, that way we can ditch Dougie. If Buchholz doesn't seem ready at the beginning of the season, you always have JT or another cheap veteran #5 starter.

lutz giv up taveraz n cora fur burelehee too fur won tehy cant refuse!!!!

[mosox]

The fact that Theo is even talking about this trade may indicate two serious concerns. First, Schilling won't be back for a while, and second, they may not be confident in Lester. If that's the case then Theo may think he almost has to make the deal. From what I've seen though Gabbard throws well and I see no reason to go out and make a deal.

[Rdsxmbnt]

lutz giv up taveraz n cora fur burelehee too fur won tehy cant refuse!!!!

Id even throw in a power set-up man like Mike Timlin to make it happen

[schillingouttheks]

Get Buherle without giving up Buchholz, Bowden or Ellsbury.

08 rotation would be

1.Beckett
2.Matsuzaka
3.Buherle
4.Lester
5.Buchholz

Let Wake retire, that way we can ditch Dougie. If Buchholz doesn't seem ready at the beginning of the season, you always have JT or another cheap veteran #5 starter.

You will not see Buehrle in this uniform without giving up at least Bowden. I'd also rather move Lester elsewhere if the Sox plan on signing Zambrano or Sabathia this off season. That would give us this '08 rotation (don't pick up Wake's option...I love the guy, but I can't stand Mirabelli; that said, pick his option up if you plan on using him out of the bullpen. I'm pretty sure they could handle a knuckleballer sans Mirabelli for one or two innings. Bring up Kottaras to back up Varitek or trade Ellsbury for Saltalamacchia):

Beckett
Matsuzaka
Zambrano/Sabathia
Buehrle
Buchholz

Yes please.

[rician blast]

The fact that Theo is even talking about this trade may indicate two serious concerns. First, Schilling won't be back for a while, and second, they may not be confident in Lester.

my thoughts exactly...how much of this trade talk is simply conjecture on the part of the media I don't know, but I think you've got to consider, assuming their is some truth to the rumors, that Schill and/or Lester pose serious concerns right now.

[schillingouttheks]

Well, if they're concerned about them, they can trade for Buehrle, sign Zambrano or Sabathia, and plug in Buchholz as the 5 starter. I wouldn't complain.

[adam123]

Go for Santana forget Zambrano he's a head case . And soft tossing Buehrle will not do well in Fenway.

[Coco's Disciples]

Go for Santana forget Zambrano he's a head case . And soft tossing Buehrle will not do well in Fenway.

Santana isn't a FA at the end of the year.

Care to elaborate on why you think Buehrle won't do well in Fenway? In 4 games at Fenway he is 3-1 with a 3.49 ERA. Granted he has 12 K and 11 walks, but that has nothing to do with Fenway.

[adam123]

I am just worried soft tossing lefty will not be effective. But I would like to see him so hopefully i will be wrong .

[eZ_d0eS_iT?]

who is buehrle's agent? if its boras i can guarantee you he'd only be a half season rental. with the ridiculous jack average to slightly above average players/pitchers received last offseason, it might be too much of a temptation for him not to hit the open market. if on the other hand, he cares about winning, and would be willing to sign an extension, i might part with a good pitching prospect who would otherwise be blocked from joining the rotation.

[Rdsxmbnt]

priceless question I saw on soxprospects from a BP chat:


Matt (Burbs of Chicago): Buehrle is on his way out in Chicago. With that being the case, would you make this deal if you were Kenny Williams -- You get Clay Buchholz and Jacoby Ellsbury for your soon-to-be FA LH SP? How about the BoSox -- does the deal make sense from their end?

Kevin Goldstein: The Red Sox would NEVER NEVER EVER do that.

[ksushi]

Lester needs to prove he can locate in the majors. Because when he came up, he nibbled way too much, fell behind in counts and then was scored upon regularly. Maybe Farrell has the golden touch and can make a minor miracle with Lester as well.

That happens to a lot of rookie pitcher until they settle into a groove, I don't get why critics harp on that. It happened to glavine, who sported at 1.75 whip in his first year in the majors, it happens to a lot of guys. I'm not worried about his control because no matter what level you are at its 60 feet to home plate and the strike zone is the knees to the letters. That doesn't change. The good signs were there and the bad stuff was nothing too serious to worry about.

[riverside sluggers]

Per 7 News Boston

The Red Sox and White Sox are in serious negotiations now for Buehrle. There are 2 sticking points

*The White Sox are intent on getting either Lester or Bucholz
*They might not approve of Boston negotiating a contract extension with Buehrle when the trade is being processed

As much as I would hate to see him, Id say Sox should send Lester to Chicago (moreso if Buehrle is locked up long term). BoSox still get a lefty pitcher who's been nothing but solid in the AL and the playoffs. And as well as the fact they still keep probably the top pitching prospect in the minors, Clay Bucholz

[redsoxrules]

if they plan to sign buehrle for long term i wouldn't mind giving up lester but NOT bucholz
now if they dont plan on signing him i see no point to make a trade for him

[Rdsxmbnt]

I'm torn. I'm a huge Lester fan (hes been my avatar forever here), and his comeback story is incredible. He has the potential to be a #2 SP in the majors also still. Buehrle is a really solid SP though, innings eater, and a proven AL pitcher with excellent control. Beckett-Matsuzaka-Buchholz-Buehrle is an awesome SP core that would be locked up for a very long time if Buehrle resigns. That can match up with anyone which would be very tempting. FWIW, Kevin Goldstein mentioned specifically in his chat that Boston wont give up any of the Big 3 (Buchholz-Ellsbury-Bowden; Chamberlain for the Yankees also).

[seabeachfred]

We'd be nuts to get Buehrle if we don't sign him to a long term contract before we trade for him. If the Pale Hose balk at that shit on them. And we don't put Bucholz or Ellsbury is any such package for the lefthander. Those two are a big part of our future and I think both are going to be solid players for us. I would hate to lose Lester but a healthy Buehrle would give us a solid lefty in our rotation, but we should beware of how much Sox GM Williams starts raising the ante. If he compares notes he will see we can give him a much better deal than the Yankees do, but if he holds out for too much we ought to tell him to take a hike. He then would turn to the Yankees and get less than he would have from us. If he goes that route he has taken his first step towards eventually losing his job.

[CrespoBlows]

What the fuck?

There are more than two teams in this sweepstake.

[ksushi]

*sigh* I would trade Lester for Buehrle. Wow, that was hard to say. I love Lester. ONLY if we signed him long term.

But, Ksushi, you love Lester why would you say this? Great question. I say this because Buehrle is exactly what we hope Lester becomes, and its apparent that this team is ready to compete and win now and for the foreseeable future. Beckett, DiceK, Papelbon, Bucholz, Pedroia, and Coco are all young, even Mark is only 28 and will be in his prime through the bulk of whatever contract he would see from the Sox should they acquire him. That primes us to be in the thick of it not only this year, but next year, the year after, the year after that, blah blah blah you get it. With good drafting, smart signings and trades, this well oiled machine we see playing for us now could continue to roll along like this year after year. Bucholz will come up and boost us next year, Ellsbury should make his debut this season and compete for a job next year (if Coco finishes the season well, we have a log jam that could turn out to be very valuable for us on the trade market).

Buehrle is a move for now and a move for down the road. Lets do it.

[jacksonianmarch]

ksushi, I couldnt agree more. Lester may have a bit of a higher power ceiling, but Buerhle has proven he can be an innings eating ace on a world championship American League team when he is at his best, and at his worst, he is a middle of the rotation, perennial 200-250IP starter who is left handed. This is a no brainer ESPECIALLY since you already have a nice, young, major league pitching corps to add to. Dealing away Lester wont hurt when you know that Beckett, DiceK and Buerhle could be taking the bump 60% of the time in the next half decade.

[ksushi]

ksushi, I couldnt agree more. Lester may have a bit of a higher power ceiling, but Buerhle has proven he can be an innings eating ace on a world championship American League team when he is at his best, and at his worst, he is a middle of the rotation, perennial 200-250IP starter who is left handed. This is a no brainer ESPECIALLY since you already have a nice, young, major league pitching corps to add to. Dealing away Lester wont hurt when you know that Beckett, DiceK and Buerhle could be taking the bump 60% of the time in the next half decade.

Exactly. As much as a love Lester, like any prospect, he represents a bit of an unknown. I still favor the approach of bring up your own pitching, but I also think that a good team is fueled by its farm system, not only by the talent brought up, but by the talent shipped out to bring in veteran players. Buehrle is a guy you build a staff around. He has proven he can get it done in the A.L. and under the lights in the playoffs. You gotta do it. I also agree with you that it might not be a great move for the yankees ( i think you said this in another thread maybe?) because they really need to bring up their talent now to establish a corp of young major league talent and get back on their feet that way. Thats exactly what I don't want to happen. I don't want Humberto Sanchez to stay with the Yanks. Or Chamberlain, or Tabata. So thats how I know its the right move for them to make, because it pisses me off that their doing it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly. As much as a love Lester, like any prospect, he represents a bit of an unknown. I still favor the approach of bring up your own pitching, but I also think that a good team is fueled by its farm system, not only by the talent brought up, but by the talent shipped out to bring in veteran players. Buehrle is a guy you build a staff around. He has proven he can get it done in the A.L. and under the lights in the playoffs. You gotta do it. I also agree with you that it might not be a great move for the yankees ( i think you said this in another thread maybe?) because they really need to bring up their talent now to establish a corp of young major league talent and get back on their feet that way. Thats exactly what I don't want to happen. I don't want Humberto Sanchez to stay with the Yanks. Or Chamberlain, or Tabata. So thats how I know its the right move for them to make, because it pisses me off that their doing it.

Yeah, I agree. As much as I hate to say it, the sox have one hell of a potent 1-2 punch already in DiceK and Beckett. So you just need to add to 3 spots. We have Wang and Hughes, but Hughes still represents a bit of the unknown in terms of rookie mistakes and durability questions. I like our approach, I just hope Steinny can stay in his coma long enough to get this machine rolling.

For you guys, you have a guy similar to Hughes waiting in the wings, along with 2 top of the rotation starters. Getting Buerhle while hanging onto Buchholz would be a major coup IMO.

[seabeachfred]

You will not see Buehrle in this uniform without giving up at least Bowden. I'd also rather move Lester elsewhere if the Sox plan on signing Zambrano or Sabathia this off season. That would give us this '08 rotation (don't pick up Wake's option...I love the guy, but I can't stand Mirabelli; that said, pick his option up if you plan on using him out of the bullpen. I'm pretty sure they could handle a knuckleballer sans Mirabelli for one or two innings. Bring up Kottaras to back up Varitek or trade Ellsbury for Saltalamacchia):

Beckett
Matsuzaka
Zambrano/Sabathia
Buehrle
Buchholz

Yes please.

First things first Schill. Who is saying that the Red Sox are finally going to say sayonara to Tim Wakefield. He has become almost a pet for the Red Sox brass and I think they are very reluctant to let him go. They should, no doubt in my mind about it. I saw him Saturday in person and saw enough to convince me that I have been right about him all along. He is about finished. And we can get rid of Mirabelli in the process because he is completely useless as a hitter. i saw that, too on Saturday night. If the Red Sox are smart and do tell Wake to take a hike then Sabathia is who I want in a Red Sox jersey. The problem is the here and now. Who is to say that Cleveland will not resign him? Who'se to say that the Cubs will not resign Zambrano?

If we have a chance to get Buehrle and don't have to give up Bucholz or Ellsbury for him, then fine. Those are two players we must not let get away. Bowden? I can see that. Hell, why not make it a big trade.....Send Bowden, Crisp, and Murphy to their team for the lefthander and first baseman Paul Konerko. There would be a way to settle our first base problem for next year. If we have to throw another player or prospect in, fine. It means we can finally bring up Ellsbury and have a legitimate leadoff man for a change. No, Crisp is NOT a leadoff man. He does not work the count at all.

[jacksonianmarch]

You do know that Sabathia is signed through 2008, right?

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=545

[ksushi]

I have no interest in either Zambrano or Sabathia.

[CrespoBlows]

I have no interest in either Zambrano or Sabathia.

I don't like Zambrano, either, but why not Sabathia?

[seabeachfred]

You do know that Sabathia is signed through 2008, right?

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=545

No I didn't Jackson. Thanks for the info. From all the info I was reading here I thought he was in the same class with Zambrano. Then in my opinion we (us, the Red Sox) should go after Buehrle as long as Bucholz and Ellsbury are not part of the deal. I made a proposal in another post that we really make it a big trade but I was throwing out a trial balloon. I don't know yet if anyone even responded to it.

[seabeachfred]

I have no interest in either Zambrano or Sabathia.

So you are for the Buehrle trade. Now who do you give up and who do you do not give up? Those are my sticking points as well. No Bucholz or Ellsbury.

[ksushi]

I don't like Zambrano, either, but why not Sabathia?

Weight issues, durability issues. I don't think he is the kind of guy who looks to hold up long term and be durable year in year out.

[ksushi]

So you are for the Buehrle trade. Now who do you give up and who do you do not give up? Those are my sticking points as well. No Bucholz or Ellsbury.


Guys I do not give up no matter what: Bucholz, Lars Anderson. Maybe Ellsbury, but I think I would do Ellsbury in a straight up deal for Buehrle, but I don't think I would put anyone else in the deal. That won't happen though.

I would give up: Bowden, Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen, Moss, Murphy, Kottaras, or Lowrie. Of course not all of these guys. One of Lester or Bowden, to go with either Hansen, Delcarmen or Moss and as a throw in the third player could be picked from either Murphy, Kottaras, or Lowrie although I am MUCH higher on Lowrie than I ever have been before. A .400 OBP at every level and a .300+ BA at pretty much every level he reminds me a lot of pedroia with a better eye and better glove. I might even start to think about ruling him out in any trade too just because of his low trade value and his high cieling.

[CrespoBlows]

Weight issues, durability issues. I don't think he is the kind of guy who looks to hold up long term and be durable year in year out.

He's made at least 28 starts in every single one of his seasons. I don't think he has a durability issue.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's made at least 28 starts in every single one of his seasons. I don't think he has a durability issue.

he is always mildly dinged up every season though. Kinda like Beckett.

[jacksonianmarch]

Now that I think about it, a rotation of Buerhle, DMats and Beckett would fucking suck on my end. Hopefully Kennedy could make the deal get done and we can sign this guy.

[eZ_d0eS_iT?]

Per 7 News Boston

The Red Sox and White Sox are in serious negotiations now for Buehrle. There are 2 sticking points

*The White Sox are intent on getting either Lester or Bucholz
*They might not approve of Boston negotiating a contract extension with Buehrle when the trade is being processed

As much as I would hate to see him, Id say Sox should send Lester to Chicago (moreso if Buehrle is locked up long term). BoSox still get a lefty pitcher who's been nothing but solid in the AL and the playoffs. And as well as the fact they still keep probably the top pitching prospect in the minors, Clay Bucholz


werd. :thumbsup:


if buchholz has the greater upside, its a no-brainer...lester may have endeared himself to the RSN, but business is business, and nothing short of the pennant will be a huge disapointment. if schill wasn't struggling, this wouldnt be a huge priority, and since all signs point to him not returning, it could open up a spot for buehrle if we wants to remain with a competitor.

i just dunno. something tells me the yanks might be last minute players for him... he seems like someone they would go after pretty hard, especially since they could use all the pitching help they could get. (not to mention he'd most likely be a front of the rotation guy for them with the sub-par year mussina is having.)

[jacksonianmarch]

werd. :thumbsup:


if buchholz has the greater upside, its a no-brainer...lester may have endeared himself to the RSN, but business is business, and nothing short of the pennant will be a huge disapointment. if schill wasn't struggling, this wouldnt be a huge priority, and since all signs point to him not returning, it could open up a spot for buehrle if we wants to remain with a competitor.

i just dunno. something tells me the yanks might be last minute players for him... he seems like someone they would go after pretty hard, especially since they could use all the pitching help they could get. (not to mention he'd most likely be a front of the rotation guy for them with the sub-par year mussina is having.)

Buerhle would be the sox #2 this season if they acquired him. He'd either be the ace or the 2 in NY. He's a very solid pitcher. I hope we enter the fray so long as we dont deal off any of the power pitchers and so long as we can sign him long term.

[jacksonianmarch]

For reference, Buehrle's stats over the pas 6 seasons...

230IP 3.80ERA .266BAA 2.57K/BB with a W/L of 101-70 and a 1.25WHIP.

[eZ_d0eS_iT?]

with the year wang is having for you guys, i'd say he's your number one right now....but buehrle would def. be no worse than #2. maybe its seeing him all these years in a chi-sox uni, but i really see him wearing pinstripes before he puts on a bosox jersey, (crosses fingers) the interesting thing would be what cashman would give up to get him.

[jacksonianmarch]

with the year wang is having for you guys, i'd say he's your number one right now....but buehrle would def. be no worse than #2. maybe its seeing him all these years in a chi-sox uni, but i really see him wearing pinstripes before he puts on a bosox jersey, (crosses fingers) the interesting thing would be what cashman would give up to get him.

It sounds like Kenny Williams has asked for and been denied on Chamberlain, Kennedy and Hughes. I'd agree with Hughes and Chamberlain. Not sure about Kennedy. Kennedy sounds like he is a righty version of Buehrle, although Kennedy seems to strike more guys out. Buehrle is young enough that, provided he signs, could really be a nice fit.

[eZ_d0eS_iT?]

Weight issues, durability issues. I don't think he is the kind of guy who looks to hold up long term and be durable year in year out.

cleveland would disagree with you.... but it won't matter in the long run since he's their ace, and zambrano is the cubs #1... and unless they are desperate to leave no matter what, you can bet neither will join the bosox anytime soon.

[seabeachfred]

Guys I do not give up no matter what: Bucholz, Lars Anderson. Maybe Ellsbury, but I think I would do Ellsbury in a straight up deal for Buehrle, but I don't think I would put anyone else in the deal. That won't happen though.

I would give up: Bowden, Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen, Moss, Murphy, Kottaras, or Lowrie. Of course not all of these guys. One of Lester or Bowden, to go with either Hansen, Delcarmen or Moss and as a throw in the third player could be picked from either Murphy, Kottaras, or Lowrie although I am MUCH higher on Lowrie than I ever have been before. A .400 OBP at every level and a .300+ BA at pretty much every level he reminds me a lot of pedroia with a better eye and better glove. I might even start to think about ruling him out in any trade too just because of his low trade value and his high cieling.

Hold the mayo on Lowrie. We have a Grand Canyon hole at SS and he is one guy who might be able to plug that up for us in a year or two, that is, if they still have him playing short. Nothing flashy, but solid and a very smart ballplayer who switch hits. I'm surprised you would give up Ellsbury. No way Jose would I do that because it means we have to endure Crisp at leadoff for another few years. No way. Ellsbury means we can trade Coco and get something solid for him next season, maybe a good reliever and a prospect.

How's this? We trade them Bowden, Hansen, Moss and Crisp and we get Buehrle and Konerko. We solve our first base problem for the next few years, bring Ellsbury up to play centerfield and lead off and get a good lefty for our rotation. I would have included Kotteras but I cannot stomach the thought of having Mirabelli around next season. Besides, if we cannot trade Crisp this time around we might be able to get him to the Braves for Jarrod Salatamacchia, a very strong hitting catcher---and we will need one of them very soon.

[MANNYHOF24]

cleveland would disagree with you.... but it won't matter in the long run since he's their ace, and zambrano is the cubs #1... and unless they are desperate to leave no matter what, you can bet neither will join the bosox anytime soon.

Zambrano is a possibility because he is not getting resigned by the cubs until he tests the FA waters. If the Sox wanted they could make a run at him, and probably get him. I don't think the Sox would want to dish out that kind of cash to a pitcher who could easily break down though.

[MANNYHOF24]

Hold the mayo on Lowrie. We have a Grand Canyon hole at SS and he is one guy who might be able to plug that up for us in a year or two, that is, if they still have him playing short. Nothing flashy, but solid and a very smart ballplayer who switch hits. I'm surprised you would give up Ellsbury. No way Jose would I do that because it means we have to endure Crisp at leadoff for another few years. No way. Ellsbury means we can trade Coco and get something solid for him next season, maybe a good reliever and a prospect.

How's this? We trade them Bowden, Hansen, Moss and Crisp and we get Buehrle and Konerko. We solve our first base problem for the next few years, bring Ellsbury up to play centerfield and lead off and get a good lefty for our rotation. I would have included Kotteras but I cannot stomach the thought of having Mirabelli around next season. Besides, if we cannot trade Crisp this time around we might be able to get him to the Braves for Jarrod Salatamacchia, a very strong hitting catcher---and we will need one of them very soon.

What happens to Youk or Lowell? Why the hell would the braves trade Saltamacchia for Crisp? Are you delusional?

[jacksonianmarch]

fred, I am disappointed. That is an awful offer for the white sox.

EDIT: and the braves

[KeepTheFaith1229]

How's this? We trade them Bowden, Hansen, Moss and Crisp and we get Buehrle and Konerko. We solve our first base problem for the next few years, bring Ellsbury up to play centerfield and lead off and get a good lefty for our rotation. I would have included Kotteras but I cannot stomach the thought of having Mirabelli around next season. Besides, if we cannot trade Crisp this time around we might be able to get him to the Braves for Jarrod Salatamacchia, a very strong hitting catcher---and we will need one of them very soon.

....

First of all, there's no way Chicago trades us their best pitcher as well as their best hitter without acquiring one of Buccholz, Lester or Ellsbury.

Since when do we have a first base problem anyway? Kevin Youkilis is 28 years old and having a monster year.

Lastly, I cannot believe you think Atlanta would trade Salty for Coco Crisp. Holy damn.

[CrespoBlows]

How's this? We trade them Bowden, Hansen, Moss and Crisp and we get Buehrle and Konerko. We solve our first base problem for the next few years, bring Ellsbury up to play centerfield and lead off and get a good lefty for our rotation. I would have included Kotteras but I cannot stomach the thought of having Mirabelli around next season. Besides, if we cannot trade Crisp this time around we might be able to get him to the Braves for Jarrod Salatamacchia, a very strong hitting catcher---and we will need one of them very soon.

lol wut? letz traid crisp 4 joe mauer lol wut a trade.

http://www.digitallyarranged.com/images/Stupidity.jpg

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Holla.

[seabeachfred]

What happens to Youk or Lowell? Why the hell would the braves trade Saltamacchia for Crisp? Are you delusional?

Delusional hell MANNYHOF. You live in the East I presume and all the talk I here back there says the Red Sox are going to let Lowell walk. Is that what you hear, too? If so we need either a first baseman or third baseman. Youk moves to third and we get a right hand hitting power hitter to play that position. Frankly I don't think we'll be able to swing such a trade but it sounded good to me when I proposed it. Delusional??? Well, my Linda thinks I'm more than that when it comes to the Red Sox.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Lester was HORRIBLE tonight, not sure what that does with this trade but he did not have it tonight

And I dont like how he was left in there to get to 100 pitches, he obviously didnt have it and was left in there to get crushed.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Where did you hear that Lowell will walk...?

[CrespoBlows]

Delusional hell MANNYHOF. You live in the East I presume and all the talk I here back there says the Red Sox are going to let Lowell walk. Is that what you hear, too? If so we need either a first baseman or third baseman. Youk moves to third and we get a right hand hitting power hitter to play that position. Frankly I don't think we'll be able to swing such a trade but it sounded good to me when I proposed it. Delusional??? Well, my Linda thinks I'm more than that when it comes to the Red Sox.

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

[seabeachfred]

fred, I am disappointed. That is an awful offer for the white sox.

EDIT: and the braves

Just throwing out ideas Jackson. As far as Salatamacchia, they Braves have no place to put him. They signed McCann to a long term contract earlier this year, and they have Thormon as their first baseman. Jarrod is not that speedy that he can play the outfield. As for the White Sox, I don't know what kind of housecleaning Williams is talking about, a small or large one. If they are rebuilding Konerko does not do them a while hell of a lot of good. We may have to sweeten the pot, but, again, I said in a previous post that the Sox would probably not include him in such a trade even I think this would really help our team. As for Crisp, the Braves are not going to sing Jones in the off season, no way. They will need someone to play out there and Coco had a blowout series there last week. Hell, if you have better ideas, tell me. I'm all ears.

[seabeachfred]

....

First of all, there's no way Chicago trades us their best pitcher as well as their best hitter without acquiring one of Buccholz, Lester or Ellsbury.

Since when do we have a first base problem anyway? Kevin Youkilis is 28 years old and having a monster year.

Lastly, I cannot believe you think Atlanta would trade Salty for Coco Crisp. Holy damn.

You have better trade ideas? Fine, let me hear them. I'm all ears. I was throwing out my ideas of how we can improve the team. Youk can move to third base next year which he still can play very well as I saw this past Friday. The Boston papers and numerous boards, including this one have hinted that the Red Sox will not resign Lowell to a contract after this season. I would like him back but all I keep hearing is that the Red Sox are not interested in a long term contract for the guy.

[seabeachfred]

Where did you hear that Lowell will walk...?

Not that Lowell will walk but the Red Sox will not resign him. I read something on his board on that score, and Dirt Dogs has been hinting at that for the past three months. Again, I would love to have Lowell resigned and keep Youk at first, but so far we haven't heard a thing about the Sox wanting to keep Mike in our stable for the next three years.

Again, with Crisp---he had a blowout series with the Braves and they already have a young catcher they signed to a long term contract. I think it would be in our best interests to try and get a young hitting catcher like Jarrod Salatamacchia. It might take more than Crisp but they are going to need a CF next year because they will not resign Jones for the money he wants. Perhaps we can add something to the trade if the Braves request it. Just thinking out loud. What's your opinion?

[example1]

It all depends on what Lowell wants to stay at 3B for the Sox. if he likes the team and would sign a decent contract then I could see them keeping him. If he wants what he has currently they will not. Youkilis gives them options, as they would just need to sign the best 3B or 1B available.

I would quickly trade Lester for Buehrle. I like Lester and think he's a great 'spec. At the same time I have never really like Buehrle. He bores me as a pitcher; he's like all the other soft tossing lefties: good control, not a lot of K's, effective ERA. Only, of the past 5 years or so, he's the best. And he's only 28. The guy started the All-Star game in 2005 for crying out loud. If the Sox think they can sign him to 4 years with an option then they should pull the trigger for sure.

I wouldn't let the White Sox get the equivalent of potential-ace value for him, however. The Josh Beckett deal (Hanley and Anibel PLUS taking Lowell's salary) was potential-ace value. Buehrle is good, but he doesn't have anything close to what Beckett does in terms of stuff. He has more poise and experience, but he doesn't have Beckett's ability to dominante and intimidate.

Lester and Moss should get it done.

[example1]

Not that Lowell will walk but the Red Sox will not resign him. I read something on his board on that score, and Dirt Dogs has been hinting at that for the past three months. Again, I would love to have Lowell resigned and keep Youk at first, but so far we haven't heard a thing about the Sox wanting to keep Mike in our stable for the next three years.

I haven't heard alternatives either. Lowell could be a good trade candidate at the deadline, as he is bound to regress to his mean and he has highest possible value right now (and in the next month). In any case, I haven't heard or seen who the 3B alternatives are who are available next year. The Sox don't have any obvious 3B or 1B options in the minors (aside from Aaron Bates, who is 23 and only in high-A, though very promising).

KSushi, I would add Bates to the list of Buchholz, and Anderson of untradeables. Although, for personal reasons I would add Ellsbury to that list (I live in Oregon and he was a star at Oregon state--I also love his style of play and htink he would be a crowd favorite/star for a decade). I think the Sox may decide between Anderson and Bates in the next year or two and then deal the other. They both have tremendous upsides and skills, and their difference in skills (with Anderson probably the higher prospect) is counteracted by the fact that Anderson could probably get you more in a trade. :dunno:



Again, with Crisp---he had a blowout series with the Braves and they already have a young catcher they signed to a long term contract. I think it would be in our best interests to try and get a young hitting catcher like Jarrod Salatamacchia. It might take more than Crisp but they are going to need a CF next year because they will not resign Jones for the money he wants. Perhaps we can add something to the trade if the Braves request it. Just thinking out loud. What's your opinion?

I love the optimism and hope for Salatamacchia. I think the Sox should get him if they can (I think anyone on this board would agree with that statement) but I'm not very confident that it will be possible for a guy like Crisp. Of course, being able to get established MLB players like Renteria and Crisp from the sox probably seems pretty good for a team that recently started 9 home-grown players. In other words, they probably don't have the connection to the home-grown talent that Sox fans would.

Before he was traded to San Diego I was hoping the Sox would figure out a way to sign Michael Barrett. Perhaps they still will, but I think they need to play any catcher resigning carefully with Tek getting clsoer to the end of his contract and getting older. He shouldn't have a replacement who can kick him out of the way, but young talent at catcher is pretty hard to find (hence all the catchers the sox drafted this year). Anyway, there should be an option out there someplace.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Just throwing out ideas Jackson. As far as Salatamacchia, they Braves have no place to put him. They signed McCann to a long term contract earlier this year, and they have Thormon as their first baseman. Jarrod is not that speedy that he can play the outfield. As for the White Sox, I don't know what kind of housecleaning Williams is talking about, a small or large one. If they are rebuilding Konerko does not do them a while hell of a lot of good. We may have to sweeten the pot, but, again, I said in a previous post that the Sox would probably not include him in such a trade even I think this would really help our team. As for Crisp, the Braves are not going to sing Jones in the off season, no way. They will need someone to play out there and Coco had a blowout series there last week. Hell, if you have better ideas, tell me. I'm all ears.

Thorman sucks. And you would absolutely have to add more to get Konerko as well, not like we even need Konerko.


You have better trade ideas? Fine, let me hear them. I'm all ears. I was throwing out my ideas of how we can improve the team. Youk can move to third base next year which he still can play very well as I saw this past Friday. The Boston papers and numerous boards, including this one have hinted that the Red Sox will not resign Lowell to a contract after this season. I would like him back but all I keep hearing is that the Red Sox are not interested in a long term contract for the guy.

I don't have "better ideas", I'm just pointing out that yours are completely unrealistic.


Again, with Crisp---he had a blowout series with the Braves and they already have a young catcher they signed to a long term contract. I think it would be in our best interests to try and get a young hitting catcher like Jarrod Salatamacchia. It might take more than Crisp but they are going to need a CF next year because they will not resign Jones for the money he wants. Perhaps we can add something to the trade if the Braves request it. Just thinking out loud. What's your opinion?

It might take more than Crisp? Really? You think? Jarrod Saltalamacchia is nearly untouchable, I don't think they'll trade him for Crisp and change.

GAH

[a700hitter]

If we could lock up Buerhle long term as part of the trade, I 'd be willing to part with anyone in the minors other than Bucholz or Ellsbury. I just don't think they can get a long term deal signed. Who is Buerhle's agent?

[example1]

If we could lock up Buerhle long term as part of the trade, I 'd be willing to part with anyone in the minors other than Bucholz or Ellsbury. I just don't think they can get a long term deal signed. Who is Buerhle's agent?

Are you drunk? You would hold onto two prospects in the face of potentially getting a #2 (a SOLID #2) a starter? What have you done with a700?!?! You bastards!!

(I would also hold onto those prospects, it's just shocking to see.) :lol:

[CrespoBlows]

Who is Buerhle's agent?

Jeff Berry.

[a700hitter]

Are you drunk? You would hold onto two prospects in the face of potentially getting a #2 (a SOLID #2) a starter? What have you done with a700?!?! You bastards!!

(I would also hold onto those prospects, it's just shocking to see.) :lol::lol: If push came to shove, and they wouldn't budge and we could sign Buehrle long term, I'd probably part with Bucholz, but not Ellsbury. I think he is a special talent.

[TheKilo]

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

Hahahaha...I love it.

As for Buerhle...look. I started the thread. I'd love to see the guy on the Sox. Could a package of Bowden/Lowrie/WMP get it done? If they can do a 4 yr deal with an option for a 5th, (Buerhle is reportedly asking for a deal in the 5 yr/$70-75 million range), then I think you gotta get it done. Buerhle is a horse, eats innings, works quick...I really like the guy.

Just don't trade Buchholz or Ellsbury.

[seabeachfred]

Thorman sucks. And you would absolutely have to add more to get Konerko as well, not like we even need Konerko.



I don't have "better ideas", I'm just pointing out that yours are completely unrealistic.



It might take more than Crisp? Really? You think? Jarrod Saltalamacchia is nearly untouchable, I don't think they'll trade him for Crisp and change.

GAH

Faith, tell where the Braves are going to play Salatamacchia? If you say first base, then you are right and we have no chance in hell of getting him. However, they were very high on Thormon in ST and they project him as a good hitting first baseman with average power. Either way it doesn't hurt trying to see if he's available. We are going to need a catcher after 2008 and from the looks of things it seems that Kottreras is regressing if anything.

[schillingouttheks]

Hahahaha...I love it.

As for Buerhle...look. I started the thread. I'd love to see the guy on the Sox. Could a package of Bowden/Lowrie/WMP get it done? If they can do a 4 yr deal with an option for a 5th, (Buerhle is reportedly asking for a deal in the 5 yr/$70-75 million range), then I think you gotta get it done. Buerhle is a horse, eats innings, works quick...I really like the guy.

Just don't trade Buchholz or Ellsbury.

Some people on White Sox boards that I've been skimming through say they wouldn't part with Buehrle unless Buchholz was included. He's supposedly the "first and foremost piece."

... :lol: If they really think that the Sox are going to part with Buchholz, they're getting their hopes up.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Faith, tell where the Braves are going to play Salatamacchia? If you say first base, then you are right and we have no chance in hell of getting him. However, they were very high on Thormon in ST and they project him as a good hitting first baseman with average power. Either way it doesn't hurt trying to see if he's available. We are going to need a catcher after 2008 and from the looks of things it seems that Kottreras is regressing if anything.

Yes we will need a catcher, but Salty would be very hard to get. He'll probably end up at first with them, if we were to get him a package would have to start out with Ellsbury to even get them thinking.

[schillingouttheks]

Yes we will need a catcher, but Salty would be very hard to get. He'll probably end up at first with them, if we were to get him a package would have to start out with Ellsbury to even get them thinking.

They'll ship him if Ellsbury is included in a package. They'd rather get their needs from dealing him as a C (much more value) than placing him at 1B. He's much more valuable as a C. He's a 25-homer guy. How often do you get that out of your catcher?

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Well I'm saying if he stays with the Braves his future is probably as a 1B.

[ksushi]

KSushi, I would add Bates to the list of Buchholz, and Anderson of untradeables. Although, for personal reasons I would add Ellsbury to that list (I live in Oregon and he was a star at Oregon state--I also love his style of play and htink he would be a crowd favorite/star for a decade). I think the Sox may decide between Anderson and Bates in the next year or two and then deal the other. They both have tremendous upsides and skills, and their difference in skills (with Anderson probably the higher prospect) is counteracted by the fact that Anderson could probably get you more in a trade. :dunno:



.

Anderson is 19 hits above .300 with good power and won the quality AB's award. AT 19. This guy is a stud. He will be a blue chip that will top all the charts for years to come. He is a beast. Bates and Anderson are not in the same class. Bates is 23 in single A doing things that Anderson is doing now at 19 at the same level.


19 years old! He's the man. He has Texiera/Morneau potential.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Bates is a decent prospect but hes not a deal-breaker. Lars Anderson on the other hand is a stud, keep him.

[ksushi]

It looks like the Mets are aiming for Contreras and not Buehrle and wouldn't be interested in a potential rental or a contract negotiation/extension thing.

The Braves have a bigger need for Buehrle but I'm of the opinion the Sox could put together a better package for the ChiSox. Bucholz and Ellsbury are going absolutely no where, but Lester, Bowden, Lowrie and others may be on the table.

[example1]

Anderson is 19 hits above .300 with good power and won the quality AB's award. AT 19. This guy is a stud. He will be a blue chip that will top all the charts for years to come. He is a beast. Bates and Anderson are not in the same class. Bates is 23 in single A doing things that Anderson is doing now at 19 at the same level.


19 years old! He's the man. He has Texiera/Morneau potential.

There is no question that Anderson is the better prospect. But if he can be used in a deal for, say Zambrano or Cabrera, AND the Sox felt that Bates had some major league potential, I could see using Anderson. The fact is that they will not co-exist on the Red Sox, so at Anderson's age and with the time it will take between now and when he is on the Sox, the Sox would have the time to compensate for a loss of a prospect of his caliber (gaining, of course, something significant by trading him) through FA or draft or Bates.

I understand how phenomenal Anderson is, however, and understand anyone's hesitance at even discussing moving him.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

If Julian's really injured, I think Theo makes Beurhle a Red Sox ASAP.

[jacksonianmarch]

Anderson is 19 hits above .300 with good power and won the quality AB's award. AT 19. This guy is a stud. He will be a blue chip that will top all the charts for years to come. He is a beast. Bates and Anderson are not in the same class. Bates is 23 in single A doing things that Anderson is doing now at 19 at the same level.


19 years old! He's the man. He has Texiera/Morneau potential.

hey, Lars Anderson, meet Eric Duncan. A power hitting 1b with a good eye who is being moved slowly through the system. He is so far from the bigs that he certainly cannot be viewed as untouchable, especially if you have the opportunity to land a top of the rotation pitcher.

[jacksonianmarch]

You have better trade ideas? Fine, let me hear them. I'm all ears. I was throwing out my ideas of how we can improve the team. Youk can move to third base next year which he still can play very well as I saw this past Friday. The Boston papers and numerous boards, including this one have hinted that the Red Sox will not resign Lowell to a contract after this season. I would like him back but all I keep hearing is that the Red Sox are not interested in a long term contract for the guy.

Thorman can play the OF and Salty can play 1b. He is a switch hitting catcher who is 23 and can hit the ball a mile. The Braves are experts at talent evaluation and getting the most out of their talent. If you think Schuerholtz would make that move, then I am getting a little concerned about your potential for senility, lol. I think they move Salty, but look at the teams out there with old catchers and backups too far away or non-existant (Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox, Blue Jays, A's just in the AL). Salty will be a major piece in a package likely for pitching as the Braves are going to need to reload on that end and I think they are coming to the conclusion that Davies isnt a future ace.

[BSN07]

Good article over at bostonherald.com

Basically says, ya it be nice to have Buherle, but we don't need him. Theo has the leverage of saying he doesn't really need to make an impact move at the deadline at this point. Which is completely true. If there has ever been a season where were not demanding some kind of move, it's this season. He also goes onto say that the Chisox will not be allowing a window for contract negotiations, and if this is reall the case then I'll pass. I don't want to see any of out top prospects shipped out to an AL rival for a 3 month rental. Because if he hits the FA market, he is most likely to go to St. Lous.

Let the some other team rape there farm system for a 3 month rental( I for one hope the Yanks do it). Let them send Chamberlin and Kennedy and whoever else. I hope they get desperate enough ther dumb enough to trade Hughes. I know this is unlikely, but a guy can dream right?

[jacksonianmarch]

Good article over at bostonherald.com

Basically says, ya it be nice to have Buherle, but we don't need him. Theo has the leverage of saying he doesn't really need to make an impact move at the deadline at this point. Which is completely true. If there has ever been a season where were not demanding some kind of move, it's this season. He also goes onto say that the Chisox will not be allowing a window for contract negotiations, and if this is reall the case then I'll pass. I don't want to see any of out top prospects shipped out to an AL rival for a 3 month rental. Because if he hits the FA market, he is most likely to go to St. Lous.

Let the some other team rape there farm system for a 3 month rental( I for one hope the Yanks do it). Let them send Chamberlin and Kennedy and whoever else. I hope they get desperate enough ther dumb enough to trade Hughes. I know this is unlikely, but a guy can dream right?

It all depends. I mean, right now the yankees arent even in your rear view. They are so far back that worrying about them is moot at this point, even if they get Buehrle. You have to look at your own team and see how they stack up in the postseason. With a healthy Schilling, a rotation of Beckett, DMats, and Schill in a 5 or 7 game series (with Wake thrown in for game 4 in a 7 gamer) is pretty tough. But if Schill is down and Tavarez truly is hurt, you will need to rely on Wakefield for 2 games of a 7 game series and DMats will have to be a consistent ace, which is something that he has shown flashes of, but not sustained success as. A deal for Buerhle makes Schilling's return moot and gives you a top 3 hammer that can face any team and stand up to it.

Also, if Schilling comes back throwing 87mph then you know he likely has some structural damage in that shoulder that is unseen on MRI and you'll have to brave the final 90 games of the season without him. Buehrle can help there too. Because having Gabbard as a spot guy is nice, but you dont want him in the 5 slot for the rest of the way and Lester is looking worse and worse of late. It bears watching. But if Theo thinks Schill is returning to form, then this article is correct. You dont need Buerhle. If the article is wrong, then assume that Theo thinks 38 pizzas is cooked.

[jacksonianmarch]

Steve Phillips is saying on XM that the deal being worked on is...

Gabbard, Lester and Ellsbury for Buehrle and MacDougal. The sticking point is the 72 hour window.

[MarkTaylor]

Steve Phillips is saying on XM that the deal being worked on is...

Gabbard, Lester and Ellsbury for Buehrle and MacDougal. The sticking point is the 72 hour window.

ouch....i guess if you want to win now, and continue to win you have to get rid of either Lester or Ellsbury...The trigger wouldn't be pulled on this one until Schilling is back from the DL (I'm assuming gabbard is called up and replaces Schill in the rotation, unless he absolutley stinks up the joint)

If Lester gets traded, put all your pitching eggs in the basket of Buchholtz

[rician blast]

Now that I think about it, a rotation of Buerhle, DMats and Beckett would fucking suck on my end.

"Suck on your 'end' "? That's disgusting, Jacko, keep your fantasies to yourself.

[Cityofchampions33]

ouch....i guess if you want to win now, and continue to win you have to get rid of either Lester or Ellsbury...The trigger wouldn't be pulled on this one until Schilling is back from the DL (I'm assuming gabbard is called up and replaces Schill in the rotation, unless he absolutley stinks up the joint)

If Lester gets traded, put all your pitching eggs in the basket of Buchholtz

That's probably why they're letting Gabbard have two starts instead of skipping his next start on the offday and sending him back. That's a lot to give up for Buehrle, and I would much rather ship off Lowrie than Ellsbury. I have no problem trading Lester, Lowrie, and Gabbard, but yeah, the ChiSox need to give us that 72 hour window, otherwise walk away.

[seabeachfred]

Again, we are going to need a leadoff man with speed very shortly, like next year, and Ellsbury must NOT be traded. That would be lunacy. If Williams is going to hold us up like that, then he can keep Buehrle and try to get what he can from the Yankees. Epstein must hold firm and say that Bucholz and Ellsbury are non-starters. Whether Crisp is starting to turn things around somewhat now is beside the point. He is not a good leadoff man and does not have the upside or potential that Ellsbury could give us. You don't trade talent like that away. The Red Sox have done a lot of that in the past and Theo said he would stop that when he became GM. Well, this is the time to STOP THAT in its tracks.

There are other quality people we could trade. Besides, the White Sox are the ones who want to sell. We should be the ones with the leverage. Of course, it would have been nice if Wakefield and Taverez hadn't looked so crappy in their last starts.

[seabeachfred]

Thorman can play the OF and Salty can play 1b. He is a switch hitting catcher who is 23 and can hit the ball a mile. The Braves are experts at talent evaluation and getting the most out of their talent. If you think Schuerholtz would make that move, then I am getting a little concerned about your potential for senility, lol. I think they move Salty, but look at the teams out there with old catchers and backups too far away or non-existant (Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox, Blue Jays, A's just in the AL). Salty will be a major piece in a package likely for pitching as the Braves are going to need to reload on that end and I think they are coming to the conclusion that Davies isnt a future ace.

Well thanks for worrying about my well being Jacko, and I'll tell you what. After last night no more Salty for awhile. We need to worry about the here and now and, frankly, I don't like what I'm hearing. If those rumors from Steve Philips are true Theo is about to go back on his word about not giving away the future if he decides to deal Jacoby Ellsbury to the White Sox. Why the hell are we allowing Williams to call the shots? He's the guy who wants to clean house; we ought to have some leverage of our own and Ellsbury and Bucholz should be non-starters in any trade talks. Bowden, Moss, Lester? Fine! And there are others like Bard and Murphy; maybe even Pena if we can fool the Sox GM. But there are players you just don't give up and the two I mentioned are in that group.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I highly doubt the Red Sox trade Ellsbury, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong but I have a very hard time seeing the Red Sox trading Ellsbury given the potential need in CF.

[seabeachfred]

I highly doubt the Red Sox trade Ellsbury, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong but I have a very hard time seeing the Red Sox trading Ellsbury given the potential need in CF.

All of us have made wrong predictions as to standings and personnel, but I was right on about Pedroia for the last two years and I would be the garage and half my house on Jacoby Ellsbury. He is too good a young player to even consider trading. He is also a very uncommon young man besides his tremendous talent. Devout, classy, and hard working have always attached themselves to this person and the guy can play baseball. There are certain players you do not let get away and he is one of them. There are now three players who must not be traded away---Ellsbury, Bucholz and Lowrie. The latter is making great strides and we can finally see the day when we replace Johnny Damon with a superior centerfielder and finally put the shortstop curse behind us with Jed Lowrie. Bucholz is going to be an outstanding ML pitcher; he has all the pitches and the moxie. I don't want to see these guys in another uniform because we would soon regret that. The Red Sox have disposed of good young talent before; we should cease and desist from doing that now. Besides, we have other young prospects we could trade to the White Sox if they are really interested in making a trade.

[yeszir]

The more I think about it, the More I want Buehrle on our team.

[inkman]

The more I think about it, the More I want Buehrle on our team.

No matter the cost?

[lasorda's speed dial]

No matter the cost?

Would be a good move for the Sox. Keep him away from the Bronx and you'll have the East wrapped up.

[yeszir]

No matter the cost?
I didn't say that, but where I was previously opposed to giving up Ellsbury I'm starting to think that it may make sense now.

[Beckett95]

Lester, Gabbard and Ellsbury for Buehrle and a AAA relief ptcher???

NO WAY

like cityofchampiions said, lowrie instead of ellsbury, and id do the deal

and the whitesox should to

BTW, the Globe today said that Buchholz and Ellsbury will not be part of any Buehrle deal

[Beckett95]

Bench coach Joey Cora was telling starting pitcher Mark Buehrle he could stay at his brother’s house when the inevitable trade comes down. Alex Cora is an infielder with the Boston Red Sox.

daily herald

[Coco's Disciples]

Rumors are really heating up, and the stars are aligning for this trade to go down:

-Schilling is hurt
-Tavarez could be hurt
-Lester hasn't been good in AAA recently.
-The White Sox are done, and Kenny Williams never denied this trade.

[Beckett95]

White Sox Planted Buehrle To Boston Rumor
Keith Law, on ESPNEWS yesterday, reported that the Mark Buehrle-to-Boston rumor is bogus and almost certainly planted by the White Sox front office. Couldn't hurt to try, unless the plant damages relations with the Red Sox in the future. This type of practice is probably more common than we realize, though.

A loyal MLBTR reader, summing up Ken Rosenthal's recent comments on WEEI, noted that the Yankees are not actually involved on Buehrle. A GM always wants the Yankees and Red Sox involved when conducting a player auction, but it looks like that's not the case with Buehrle. Perhaps the Mets-Braves rivalry can be exploited instead.
mlbtraderumors

[yeszir]

So that's saying that this was initially planted in order to get the Sox and Yankees in a bidding war that would benefit the White Sox? And now that that's not going to happen, the White Sox are going to look somewhere else for the trade?

Intriguing and kinda cool that teams plant rumors if its true, but I don't know if thats the case here.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Boston Herald says we're out of the running


This really shouldn’t come as much of a surprise, but baseball sources indicated early this afternoon that the Red Sox are no longer really in the running for left-handed pitcher Mark Buehrle of the Chicago White Sox.

While it remains unclear as to where Buehrle will eventually end up, the Red Sox are not willing to part with the prospects necessary to make the trade. Chicago is believed to be looking for at least one of two front-line pitching prospects - Clay Buchholz or, perhaps, Jon Lester - in order to part with Buehrle, who is a free agent at the end of the season.

Though Buehrle is eligible for free agency, sources have indicated that the White Sox have no intention of letting clubs negotiate a contract extension with Buehrle before agreeing to the deal. Such a scenario could leave the White Sox holding the bag if Buehrle refuses to sign with another team as a condition of the deal.

One primary reason for Chicago’s unwillingness to allow negotiations between Buehrle and a third club is because it is widely believed that Buehrle wants to sign with the St. Louis Cardinals after this season. Buehrle grew up in the St. Louis area and has said on previous occasions that he would like to some day pitch for the Cardinals.

All for now.

[yeszir]

The Globe has something very similar.

[Yaz'sTripleCrown]

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/rozner.asp

Dodgers should get him.

[lasorda's speed dial]

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/rozner.asp

Dodgers should get him.
Dodgers seem to have all the pieces needed to win the West. Even with Schmidt out for the year, Billingsley should be a nice addition to the rotation. Bringing in Burley will cost the Dodgers a couple prospects, with the vets looking to leave next year, they might want to reconsider trading away any ML ready talent for a rental. Unless of course, he can be signed for 3 years.

Laroche would be a good piece to bargain with.

[Yaz'sTripleCrown]

Dodgers seem to have all the pieces needed to win the West. Even with Schmidt out for the year, Billingsley should be a nice addition to the rotation. Bringing in Burley will cost the Dodgers a couple prospects, with the vets looking to leave next year, they might want to reconsider trading away any ML ready talent for a rental. Unless of course, he can be signed for 3 years.

Laroche would be a good piece to bargain with.

LaRoche and Elbert for Buehrle and call it a day.

[lasorda's speed dial]

LaRoche and Elbert for Buehrle and call it a day.

I'm down. While they're at it, put Tomko and Lurch in the luggage ship 'em off too.

Just to make me feel at home.......

http://www.achicknamedmarzi.com/chickpix/lurch-resized.JPG

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

LaRoche and Elbert for Buehrle and call it a day.




That sounds good. I would even give Abreu, Miller, and Either for him.

[Rdsxmbnt]

would you guys give Kershaw for him?

[lasorda's speed dial]

would you guys give Kershaw for him?

I ain't the GM. But, HELL F-ING NO!

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

I ain't the GM. But, HELL F-ING NO!


That pretty much sums it up.

[Yaz'sTripleCrown]

would you guys give Kershaw for him?

Absolutely not.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Figured you guys wouldn't, and for good reason, Kershaw is a stud

[Coco's Disciples]

Sources told the Boston Herald early Tuesday afternoon that "the Red Sox are no longer really in the running" for Mark Buehrle.

Per Rotoworld

[ksushi]

I don't believe the rumor was planted, but I do believe we should be the hell out of this. Lester AND Ellsbury, Bucholz AND Lester are a couple of the things I've heard the White Sox wanted. I think maybe the thing gets revisited before the deadline because if they are not allowing a 72 hour window, no one is going to trade with them, thats ridiculous.

[TheKilo]

I think these things change on a moment's notice. I never really thought we were far and away the front runners for him especially so far away from the trading deadline. It all depends on the extension. If you sign Buehrle for an extension then the chips you are willing to trade away become a lot more impressive. If you're only getting a three month rental for Buehrle, the offer should start with Jed Lowrie and not advance much past that (maybe Lowrie/Murphy).

But if you can sign the guy for a multi year extension I can definitely see parting with Michael Bowden, Jon Lester, or even Jacoby Ellsbury. If the FO thinks Crisp is turning into the player he was in Cleveland, how much better is Ellsbury going to be? The guy is not untouchable IMO, the only prospect that is untouchable right now is Buchholz. Ellsbury is not in his league, IMO.

Another idea, is it possible that Sox are trying to acquire Buehrle to flip him to the Braves for Salty? The Braves don't have the prospects needed to get Buehrle, and if they could they jump right back into the NL East chase and possibly become one of the favorites in the NL. A 123 of Smoltz/Hudson/Buehrle is pretty good, and it probably gives them the best rotation in the NL outside of San Diego. If the Sox can somehow get Salty for a package of say Ellsbury/Bowden/Lowrie, is that then worth it?

[a700hitter]

Asa the trading deadline approaches, the price will go down. It's in the White Sox best interest to do the deal now. It's in the Red Sox interest to wait.

[schillingouttheks]

It's worth it, but do we even know if the Sox are actually interested in Salty?

[TheKilo]

It's worth it, but do we even know if the Sox are actually interested in Salty?

Why wouldn't they be? No catching prospects in the organization, and he's got the potential to be a 25-hr catcher? That way you can extend Tek for 2 years, platoon him until Salty's ready to take over every day, and cut bait with Dougie.

[schillingouttheks]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be, I just don't know if they're actively pursuing him. I personally think they should; it makes tons of sense. I'd rather just trade Ellsbury+ straight up for Salty instead of giving up potentially Bowden, Ellsbury+ for Buehrle. The Braves need a CF anyway...I can see them opening up to a swap of that sort.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Sorry guys but Salty at the moment is a pipedream. Atlanta won't be interested in dealing him mid-season for another prospect when a) Salty is hitting very well in the majors right now and b) still has Andrew Jones under contract. Even though it may make sense there's zero substantial evidence to suggest the Red Sox are currently making a run at him either. Potentially in the offseason (gaurenteed we won't be the only ones) but these deals just aren't made midseason.

[Cityofchampions33]

What would you guys do for Salty? I'd go even as far as Bowden.

[Coco's Disciples]

What would you guys do for Salty? I'd go even as far as Bowden.

Bowden? Thats nothing. Maybe Ellsbury.

[ksushi]

Try and explain to me how a 20 year old in AA with 95 and a wicked curve is "nothing". He is a great prospect...

[Rdsxmbnt]

Hes a good prospect, in the top 40 range of prospects, but Salty is in the top 10-15 range so Bowden wouldnt be enough. Plus Salty is practically the only good catching prospect out there right now.

[Coco's Disciples]

Sure he is. But Saltalamacchia is another great prospect, higher regarded, at a much weaker position. The Braves wouldn't take just Bowden for Salty-that's basically what I meant.

[example1]

Boston Herald says we're out of the running

Frankly, I can't imagine that any team would give up top tier pitching prospects for a guaranteed 3 months without a negotiating window from a guy who wants to play in St. Louis and will likely sign there. Screw that.

Furthermore, the Red Sox enormous lead makes it less likely still that a team like the yankees would trade a Kennedy or Clippard or Chamberlin, which may have happened had the teams been closer.

St. Louis would love to have him, but why trade players when you can sign him in the offseason, after your crappy season is finished? The White Sox can't have it both ways. They have about 1-month to either deal him or get nothing for him. If they want to maxamize their return, then they need to help assure that team that he will sign with them as a condition of the deal.

The less likely they are to provide that extended contract, the crappier the prospects.

[example1]

Sure he is. But Saltalamacchia is another great prospect, higher regarded, at a much weaker position. The Braves wouldn't take just Bowden for Salty-that's basically what I meant.

Give it two years of Bowden being healthy and just developing the way he currently is, and this will be much more even. Combine that with the fact that Salty's value is in him remaining a C, the existence of Brian McCann, and it becomes more reasonable.

[Cityofchampions33]

Sure he is. But Saltalamacchia is another great prospect, higher regarded, at a much weaker position. The Braves wouldn't take just Bowden for Salty-that's basically what I meant.

Agreed, when I said I'd go as far as Bowden, I meant to say anyone below or at his level of talent or below was available.

[ksushi]

I still hope a deal gets done, I think this news that the Sox are out of the running comes as no surprise. Theo is in the catbird seat and he can tell Williams to buzz off, probably about what happened. If he asked for Bucholz and Lester as some reports indicate and refused a 72 hour window... thats just absurd, I would tell him to take a walk too. All indications out of Chicago are that Atlanta and the Sox are the preferred trading partners and there isn't much else out there. I bet Williams re-kindles these talks with a softened stance in a week or so, this how these things work. Bucholz won't be in the deal. No question about that, but something can be worked out I'm sure. Sources from inside the ChiSox are calling the deal to Boston inevitable... It's tough to get leaks out of the Sox these days, so almost all of this is coming from Chicago... tough to discern what is actually going on when you only hear one side... its like hearing one half of someones phone call. You get the general idea, but not the specifics.

The Sox could have told them no way, and no one is in any rush right now, so the talks might be at a lull but Williams is no Jim Bowden, he isn't gonna get nothing for this guy and I think the Red Sox are gonna be calling in right up until he is dealt, hard to believe otherwise.

[Mr Crunchy]

this guy may be the final nail in the coffin for the rest of the league

i dont know what williams asked for

4-4 with a 3.33 era? isnt bad for that bandbox or this league
the beauty of all this as was stated before is we are in the big boy chair,we have the muscle and the prospects and the money

there will be more fur flying out of chicago this summer
should get interesting over in the bronx

[papi 74]

I don't think Buehrle will be coming here Kenny Williams is going to ship him to St.Louis According to ESPN. He should thrive over in the NL.

[Coco's Disciples]

According to 670 The Score in Chicago, Buehrle is going to sign an extension with the White Sox for 4 years @ 50 mil, or 12.5 mil per year.

[schillingouttheks]

According to 670 The Score in Chicago, Buehrle is going to sign an extension with the White Sox for 4 years @ 50 mil, or 12.5 mil per year.

That could be a very good thing for us.

[Coco's Disciples]

Hows that?

[schillingouttheks]

The first step in getting him to come here was for him to sign an extension so we could be guaranteed more than a 3-month rental. Sure, he could be going to St. Louis as well, but the ChiSox extending him makes it more likely that they're looking to deal him.

[Coco's Disciples]

The first step in getting him to come here was for him to sign an extension so we could be guaranteed more than a 3-month rental. Sure, he could be going to St. Louis as well, but the ChiSox extending him makes it more likely that they're looking to deal him.

Interesting. My first reaction was that he was off the block. I suppose it makes Buehrle more attractive to possible trade partners due to, as you said, the fact that it would not be a rental.

[thee sox]

The first step in getting him to come here was for him to sign an extension so we could be guaranteed more than a 3-month rental. Sure, he could be going to St. Louis as well, but the ChiSox extending him makes it more likely that they're looking to deal him.

If they sign him, he's going to stay. The only reason there are intentions of trading him are because they're not sure if they can re-sign him. They won't sign him to that complete steal of a contract, and then trade him. If that's true, we better be getting Buccholz and Ellsbury, but it's not, so you can calm down.

They would give you a window to sign, not sign and trade...you never see that in the baseball.

[schillingouttheks]

If they sign him, he's going to stay. The only reason there are intentions of trading him are because they're not sure if they can re-sign him. They won't sign him to that complete steal of a contract, and then trade him. If that's true, we better be getting Buccholz and Ellsbury, but it's not, so you can calm down.

They would give you a window to sign, not sign and trade...you never see that in the baseball.

Um, you can chill. I was never not calm.

If you're going to ask for even Buchholz, you'll get hung up on. The kid is ready to make an impact now. He will not be part of a trade. Maybe Ellsbury, but not Buchholz. Nevermind both of them.

When Kenny Williams sees that his team needs a complete change (because they're not going anywhere), he'll be a little less stubborn than he came off as.

[thee sox]

Um, you can chill. I was never not calm.

I never said you were not calm, but at the same time, I mentioned Buchholz and Ellsbury, so I figured it would fire you up a little.


If you're going to ask for even Buchholz, you'll get hung up on. The kid is ready to make an impact now. He will not be part of a trade. Maybe Ellsbury, but not Buchholz. Nevermind both of them.

If he's ready to make an impact now, then why has Tavarez been starting? You better believe it's going to take a ton for a proven veteran lefty (only 28, BTW), under contract for 4 years at under market value. Yes, that's top prospects...if you're not willing to pay, oh well...there are other teams that will (including, I think, the Yanks).


When Kenny Williams sees that his team needs a complete change (because they're not going anywhere), he'll be a little less stubborn than he came off as.

We have other pieces that can be traded. Javy Vazquez is signed for the next 3 years at market value, Dye can net some return, Thome, Crede will be traded next year. It's not like Buehrle is the only guy worth a shit on this team. When you sign your best pitcher under market value, you don't trade him; you build around him.

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

He is off the market. Chicago is going to ink him to a 5 year 60 million dollar deal.

[schillingouttheks]

I never said you were not calm, but at the same time, I mentioned Buchholz and Ellsbury, so I figured it would fire you up a little.

Haha, gotcha. Even though I still didn't get fired up...


If he's ready to make an impact now, then why has Tavarez been starting? You better believe it's going to take a ton for a proven veteran lefty (only 28, BTW), under contract for 4 years at under market value. Yes, that's top prospects...if you're not willing to pay, oh well...there are other teams that will (including, I think, the Yanks).

Tavarez is still starting because he's far and away exceeded any expectations we could have had for him. To tell the truth, I'm not sure why Buchholz is still sitting in AA while raping the competition, but he's ready to contribute at the major league level.


We have other pieces that can be traded. Javy Vazquez is signed for the next 3 years at market value, Dye can net some return, Thome, Crede will be traded next year. It's not like Buehrle is the only guy worth a shit on this team. When you sign your best pitcher under market value, you don't trade him; you build around him.

This is a fair statement. I guess saying that extending Buehrle made it more likely that the ChiSox are willing to trade him was a bit too far. However, the first step in composing a deal for Buehrle was to get him to sign an extension so that the team that received him in a trade would not be parting with top prospects for a 3-month rental. Of the players you listed, Buehrle will get you the most amount of talent in return because of his age and the fact that he's a lefty with a lot of experience...obviously, those are pretty rare.

Keep in mind that the Red Sox have been doing just fine recently. It's the ChiSox that would love to get something out of this. I'd be willing to part with Bowden, Lowrie, and Murphy/Moss for Buehrle..and the ChiSox should probably jump on that. Bowden's a stud 20-year-old pitcher who hits 95 and has a killer curve...it would suck to give him up, but for Buehrle I'd do it. As the trade deadline approaches, it would be in Williams' best interest to ship Buehrle out as soon as he can. When you're dealing with a team like the Red Sox that has been the best team in the MLB for most of the season, the return you'll get as the deadline approaches declines. Sure, the ChiSox don't have to trade Buehrle, but if they're truly interested in getting some young players and start to re-build, Williams should jump on an offer like the one I explained at the beginning of this paragraph. By extending Buehrle, Williams increased the value of prospects he'd get back for Buehrle.

[schillingouttheks]

He is off the market. Chicago is going to ink him to a 5 year 60 million dollar deal.

Again, as I said, this could also mean that they're getting ready to ship him out. The first step of a possible deal for Buehrle was to extend him. They just did that.

[example1]

I never said you were not calm, but at the same time, I mentioned Buchholz and Ellsbury, so I figured it would fire you up a little.



If he's ready to make an impact now, then why has Tavarez been starting? You better believe it's going to take a ton for a proven veteran lefty (only 28, BTW), under contract for 4 years at under market value. Yes, that's top prospects...if you're not willing to pay, oh well...there are other teams that will (including, I think, the Yanks).



We have other pieces that can be traded. Javy Vazquez is signed for the next 3 years at market value, Dye can net some return, Thome, Crede will be traded next year. It's not like Buehrle is the only guy worth a shit on this team. When you sign your best pitcher under market value, you don't trade him; you build around him.


Dude, the Red Sox are not the desperate ones here. They aren't the ones talking about trading one of their best pitchers for prospects. That's your team that is doing that because as it stands now they don't have a chance.

Even JOKING about getting Ellsbury and Buchholz is laughable. Most of us wouldn't give ONE of those guys to get your soft tossing middle-of-the-rotation lefty.

I think there is a VERY good chance Buerhle gets dealed with this deal in place. There is nothing that says that he wouldn't sign this deal with the condition that he gets traded, or with the understanding that he gets traded.

[Beckett95]

He is off the market. Chicago is going to ink him to a 5 year 60 million dollar deal.

4 years 50 million

[example1]

4 years 50 million

12.5 a year is pretty reasonable.

[Metropolitan Cowboy]

Again, as I said, this could also mean that they're getting ready to ship him out. The first step of a possible deal for Buehrle was to extend him. They just did that.

Why would they ink him to a new deal just to trade him? He has more trade value as a trade piece if he is going to be a FA. Certain teams looking for a rental will now back off.

[schillingouttheks]

Why would they ink him to a new deal just to trade him? He has more trade value as a trade piece if he is going to be a FA. Certain teams looking for a rental will now back off.

If they trade him, they let the new team take on the contract. Who cares who extends him if the outcome's the same? The Red Sox would like to have him for this year and beyond... which is why they asked that he be extended as a condition of the deal.

The White Sox will get more valuable prospects in return now that they extended him. If it were a 3-month rental, they wouldn't have gotten the prospects that they now can get.

[example1]

If they trade him, they let the new team take on the contract. Who cares who extends him if the outcome's the same? The Red Sox would like to have him for this year and beyond... which is why they asked that he be extended as a condition of the deal.

The White Sox will get more valuable prospects in return now that they extended him. If it were a 3-month rental, they wouldn't have gotten the prospects that they now can get.

Agreed. I'm not sayign this deal is necessarily going to get done, but this seems like the ideal situaiton to make it happen.

[ksushi]

Mark Buehrle's agent is saying now that the extension talks are bunk and there is nothing to it. They sent someone to talk to Buehrle but they shot down the offer I guess...

Who knows if he goes to the Sox, I still think it can happen, but I definitely think he is leaving the south side.

[a700hitter]

The first step in getting him to come here was for him to sign an extension so we could be guaranteed more than a 3-month rental. Sure, he could be going to St. Louis as well, but the ChiSox extending him makes it more likely that they're looking to deal him.This was my initial reaction. Of course, if he is signed for multiple years, he will cost more.

[schillingouttheks]

This was my initial reaction. Of course, if he is signed for multiple years, he will cost more.

Yes, but the White Sox never would have even sniffed A Bowden-esque pitcher if Buehrle was going to be a 3-month rental. We planned on having him extended, and thereby giving the White Sox more value in prospects anyway.

I still stand by my first take on the situation.

[Mr Crunchy]

id say this makes him more valuable
if the sox or say the mets are willing to move front line prospects then it makes sense that this guy is secured for the future

if your minny or milwaukee that may slow you down
but the large market teams would consider this a better option

[rician blast]

Problem with Beuhrle considering an extension is that if they get close to a deal but DON'T pull it off, it sort of sets a target on his $ if he ends up going the FA route.

It's not like no other teams will know the $ that were on the table in any proposed deal.

That shit would leak out faster than the drool from my mouth if Jessica Biel's bare ass were hovering 10" from my face.

[ksushi]

^ I nominate this for worst post ever. eh?

[BSN07]

Problem with Beuhrle considering an extension is that if they get close to a deal but DON'T pull it off, it sort of sets a target on his $ if he ends up going the FA route.

It's not like no other teams will know the $ that were on the table in any proposed deal.

That shit would leak out faster than the drool from my mouth if Jessica Biel's bare ass were hovering 10" from my face.

That wouldn't be the only thing leaking from me if Jessica Biel's bare ass was dancing infront of me...:thumbsup:

[schillingouttheks]

That wouldn't be the only thing leaking from me if Jessica Biel's bare ass was dancing infront of me...:thumbsup:

That's disgusting.

[BSN07]

That's disgusting.

But completely honest:D

[BillBuckner1986]

But completely honest:D

you should get that checked out.

[ksushi]

Ok, back on track? Mark Buehrle... yeah

[BSN07]

Hey guys heard something new, I know its from MLBtraderumors, but its siting another source. Says KW wants 2 top prospects and another player but might end up settling for one. It mentions the Dodgers, Mariners and another club as most interested. Then adds the Sox as being back in it in a deal that might send Lugo packing for Chicago... Anyone else hear this or know anything else?

[ksushi]

Sox are probably giving in on a Bowden/Ellsbury deal, but want them also to take Lugo. I'd be happy.

[Coco's Disciples]

As much as Lugo has disappointed this year, I don't think it's a good idea to trade him. Quite frankly, he's at the lowest of lows. He's under the mendoza line, and there is no way he could get worse than this. I see no point in selling low on this guy. If the White Sox are going to demand 2 of our top 3 prospects AND Lugo, I pass. Plus, I don't see Alex Cora as being a very effective every day player. He is a very good utility infielder, but I don't see much more out of him than that. I would love to have Buehrle, but I don't think it's worth it unless Williams lowers his demands.

[ksushi]

Cora plays far superior defense and can't hit worse than Lugo.

[schillingouttheks]

Bowden/Murphy or Moss/Lugo for Buehrle? I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'll drive them to Logan myself.

The Sox should throw all of the money from expiring contracts at A-Rod and finally stop the tryouts at SS.

[a700hitter]

As much as Lugo has disappointed this year, I don't think it's a good idea to trade him. Quite frankly, he's at the lowest of lows. He's under the mendoza line, and there is no way he could get worse than this. I see no point in selling low on this guy. If the White Sox are going to demand 2 of our top 3 prospects AND Lugo, I pass. Plus, I don't see Alex Cora as being a very effective every day player. He is a very good utility infielder, but I don't see much more out of him than that. I would love to have Buehrle, but I don't think it's worth it unless Williams lowers his demands.You are right. You never sell "low". I think Tavarez' stock is still pretty high despite his last couple of starts. Youkilis's and Lowell's stocks are very high. Youk's is higher because of his short service. Neither one will match his first half in the second half. Youk is not a .320 hitter and lowell is not a .300 hitter. Both are in the .260 to .280 range. I'd sell high on one of them. Pena's stock is in the toilet, but he has no place on the team. he needs to go. He has two selling points--- youth and tremendous power.

[ksushi]

I don't think they are selling low. I'm sorry, but if you can unload Lugo and get a frontline starting pitcher in the same deal... you do it. Jed Lowrie should be in AAA right now, Cora should be our SS and Lugo should be on the garbage heap. If we can send Lugo, Lester and Bowden or Lugo Lester and Ellsbury or any combination of those names to Chicago, Theo just acquired a big piece for the rotation and unloaded an offensive cancer. Good move.

[example1]

I don't think they are selling low. I'm sorry, but if you can unload Lugo and get a frontline starting pitcher in the same deal... you do it. Jed Lowrie should be in AAA right now, Cora should be our SS and Lugo should be on the garbage heap. If we can send Lugo, Lester and Bowden or Lugo Lester and Ellsbury or any combination of those names to Chicago, Theo just acquired a big piece for the rotation and unloaded an offensive cancer. Good move.

That's pretty funny K-sush. I thought you were serious there for a moment. Lugo, Lester and Bowden or Lugo, Lester and Ellsbury for Buehrle is WAY too much.

Those of you who think the Sox are looking to just get rid of Lugo's contract at this point have another thing coming. While this FO might hope to get something back for him, there is no way they are willing to let a guy with his tools just go for free with no alternative waiting. If they had a Pedroia/Ellsbury/Youkilis type prospect banging down the door at SS it would be different. Sorry, Lowrie isn't at that point yet given his average range and offensive skills.

Cora as Lugo's full-time replacement would be less than adequate. In 2567 career ABs Cora has been a .245/.311/.349 career hitter.

How come people are so sure that Lugo won't ascend to his career mean but Cora will keep coming through the way he has been? To me it seems that if you can't get a serious THIRD option then you stick with both Lugo and Cora. The money isn't an issue, as they were clearly willing to part with 9m a season for 4 years to keep Lugo. They aren't pressed for money at this point.

Again, if they find a deal that makes it worthwhile then I'm all for dealing Lugo. If he replaces a good prospect in a deal then that's fine. But they should not (and will not) just add him to a deal to get out from under his contract. As far as these things go they aren't spending a franchise-crippling amount of money on him (for the Red Sox' payroll). He is expensive and disappointing so far but he won't get gotten-rid of for nothing. They gave up Renteria for Crisp and Bard (ultimately), Orlando Cabrera's loss led to Jed Lowrie and Jacoby Ellsbury in the draft. They aren't going to give up Lugo for nothing. They are not in a desperate position compared to the White Sox.

If the White Sox don't want Bowden and Lugo (plus $?), or Bowden and WMP or Ellsbury and WMP for Mark Buerhle then screw it. Bring up Buchholz, add him to the rotation and watch as Bowden develops into a pitcher with better stuff than MB and Ellsbury becomes the centerpiece of the Sox offense in the next few years. They don't NEED Buerhle this year, but the White Sox NEED to do something with him. Don't rush into anything with our top 4 prospects.

[ksushi]

I would give up Lester and Ellsbury in a heart beat to get Mark Buehrle.

[ksushi]

Yeah, gotta agree about Lowrie. I liked him, but just looked up his fielding numbers and I was not aware how below average he was as far as getting to balls. His glove seems to be only decent too. But I don't know about these tools you're talking about from Lugo.

I think for the rest of this season I could more than live with Cora at SS.

[example1]

Yeah, gotta agree about Lowrie. I liked him, but just looked up his fielding numbers and I was not aware how below average he was as far as getting to balls. His glove seems to be only decent too. But I don't know about these tools you're talking about from Lugo.

I think for the rest of this season I could more than live with Cora at SS.

Maybe, but if Cora gets injured are you willing to live with Lowrie at SS, or Pedroia, or this year's Ricki Gutierriez acquired via trade.

All the players we have had at SS who have gone on to success didn't have very long sample sizes in Boston. I suggest we hold onto Lugo unless someone actively wants him as part of a trade. No matter what we would be dealing him without his true trade value being evident.

The tools I'm talking about from Lugo are, specifically, his range, his versitility, and his speed. He can play 2B, 3B or SS. I believe Cora can too, though I'm unsure how much 3B experience he has in his career. In any case, they are two very similar players: Lugo has far better speed, Cora is more consistent in the field, Lugo has higher upside at the plate and on the bases. Unless we look to get A-Rod (which would be sweet but won't happen) then I just see us looking to get another middle-infielder with plus defensive versitility and the ability to draw a walk and make some contact. Nothing too special, as evidenced by the number of players who have filled the roll over the past 5 years.

[riverside sluggers]

Considering I guess Sox are "talking about Lugo" with the White Sox in the Buehrle negotiations. I wonder if that would mean Uribe could be a part of that deal. Uribe like Buerhle is a free agent at the end of the season. Cora/Uribe at shortstop this year I could live with

[schillingouttheks]

Doesn't Uribe have a court case or something to deal with?

[riverside sluggers]

Oh, I thought it had been dismissed

[schillingouttheks]

I have no idea what happened to it. I was legitimately asking, lol.

[riverside sluggers]

Sorry

[example1]

I would give up Lester and Ellsbury in a heart beat to get Mark Buehrle.

So what do you see as their ceiling? Or, do you see Buehrle as the one player who will definitely put this team over the top? This is certainly debateable, so I won't tell you you're wrong. If you don't see a long or all-star career for Ellsbury or Lester then I could see your point.

I'm very unsure about Lester's career projections at this point. I guess he feels like a #2 on a smaller-market team when he's matured, or a #3 on a well run big market team. I don't see #1 starter from him. Of course, I don't see #1 starter from Buehrle's numbers either, but his results have been pretty impressive.

someone the other day made a comparison between Jacoby Ellsbury's plate approach and Derek Jeter's. While it is obviously very early to talk about ellsbury's career, I think that a player like him can turn into that cost-controlled mainstay for a generation of Red Sox. He has the charisma and flare that guys like Pedroia and Youkilis don't entirely have. He will quickly become a fan favorite and will provide years and years of runs and solid CF play if he sticks around. That's just my two-cents.

I understand the inclination to get a guy like MB. He's a great pitcher and could certainly put this team over the top. I just think one has to be very careful when trading away the top, most develop prospects in the system to make that happen. Getting to the playoffs is the hardest part, winning in the playoffs often comes down to how the team is playing when they get there and how the ball bounces in those particular games.

I would be inclined to try to get Buehrle with a couple of guys like Lester, Brandon Moss (who won't really get a chance in Boston anyway, but who has had 2 really good milb seasons), Aaron Bates, Lowrie, Craig Hansen, possibly even Manny Delcarmen.

Of course, a guy like Coco Crisp may be able to fill a big part of a deal too with his recent resurrgance.

[example1]

Considering I guess Sox are "talking about Lugo" with the White Sox in the Buehrle negotiations. I wonder if that would mean Uribe could be a part of that deal. Uribe like Buerhle is a free agent at the end of the season. Cora/Uribe at shortstop this year I could live with

This is from Mlbtraderumors.com, right? Isn't most of that stuff just garbage? I thought I remembered it that way...

[riverside sluggers]

So what do you see as their ceiling? Or, do you see Buehrle as the one player who will definitely put this team over the top? This is certainly debateable, so I won't tell you you're wrong. If you don't see a long or all-star career for Ellsbury or Lester then I could see your point.

I'm very unsure about Lester's career projections at this point. I guess he feels like a #2 on a smaller-market team when he's matured, or a #3 on a well run big market team. I don't see #1 starter from him. Of course, I don't see #1 starter from Buehrle's numbers either, but his results have been pretty impressive.

someone the other day made a comparison between Jacoby Ellsbury's plate approach and Derek Jeter's. While it is obviously very early to talk about ellsbury's career, I think that a player like him can turn into that cost-controlled mainstay for a generation of Red Sox. He has the charisma and flare that guys like Pedroia and Youkilis don't entirely have. He will quickly become a fan favorite and will provide years and years of runs and solid CF play if he sticks around. That's just my two-cents.

I understand the inclination to get a guy like MB. He's a great pitcher and could certainly put this team over the top. I just think one has to be very careful when trading away the top, most develop prospects in the system to make that happen. Getting to the playoffs is the hardest part, winning in the playoffs often comes down to how the team is playing when they get there and how the ball bounces in those particular games.

I would be inclined to try to get Buehrle with a couple of guys like Lester, Brandon Moss (who won't really get a chance in Boston anyway, but who has had 2 really good milb seasons), Aaron Bates, Lowrie, Craig Hansen, possibly even Manny Delcarmen.

Of course, a guy like Coco Crisp may be able to fill a big part of a deal too with his recent resurrgance.

Agree. Maybe if Buehrle agrees to sign a 4/5 year extension, Theo might be reluctant to give up Ellsbury... but youre most likely talking a 2 month rental here. Id rather them give up Ellsbury for a young top player with guaranteed long term control than a guy they wouldnt have a good chance of resigning the next offseason. A la Hanley for Beckett


This is from Mlbtraderumors.com, right? Isn't most of that stuff just garbage? I thought I remembered it that way...

Its coming from mlbtraderumors.com, but that came from Jayson Stark of ESPN. It wasnt just a fan writing in a trade rumor for fun. I did it last year, Rudy Seanez for Ryan Klesko

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Here is the way I see it.....Jonathan Papelbon, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen (has his moments), and Jacoby Ellsbury....all players I have been quite impressed with and have come up through the Red Sox system. These are all good players and we seem to be doing a great job down on the farm working with these kids (remember they are still kids and will continue to get much better).

Meanwhile JD Drew, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, Coco Crisp (for a majority until recently)....many relievers over the past several seasons.....big free agent signings have been really hit or miss.

I'm not trading Jacoby Ellsbury. I think this farm system has come a long ways and we would be foolish to start dealing away key components to a very exciting and bright future of players who feel a sense of passion playing for the Red Sox.

I think that is the real key too....you can see it in Papelbon's eyes, the way Youkilis plays the game, and the smile Pedroia brings to the bench. These guys belong in Boston and they take pride in this team. Too many times you can bring in free agents (especially in a contract year) where they are here for the wrong reasons.

[example1]

Here is the way I see it.....Jonathan Papelbon, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen (has his moments), and Jacoby Ellsbury....all players I have been quite impressed with and have come up through the Red Sox system. These are all good players and we seem to be doing a great job down on the farm working with these kids (remember they are still kids and will continue to get much better).

Meanwhile JD Drew, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, Coco Crisp (for a majority until recently)....many relievers over the past several seasons.....big free agent signings have been really hit or miss.

I'm not trading Jacoby Ellsbury. I think this farm system has come a long ways and we would be foolish to start dealing away key components to a very exciting and bright future of players who feel a sense of passion playing for the Red Sox.

I think that is the real key too....you can see it in Papelbon's eyes, the way Youkilis plays the game, and the smile Pedroia brings to the bench. These guys belong in Boston and they take pride in this team. Too many times you can bring in free agents (especially in a contract year) where they are here for the wrong reasons.

Good stuff man.

The red sox build their top organizational prospects around having quality plate appearances. It helps them win games in the big leagues, so they want to teach it to their players now. That's why it seems like a player like Alfonso Soriano or Andruw Jones will never come to Boston, they simply don't have the same philosophy. It is also why the Red Sox have worked so hard to get and retain draft picks recently, because they want to pick the guys who already show a propensity for that type of hitting. Youkilis, Pedroia and Ellsbury are all really impressive hitters in terms of quality ABs and the ability to get on base. They wear down pitchers and bullpens.

I agree about moving Ellsbury. I would much prefer that they get a top tier young talent when giving up a guy with as much athelticism and passion for baseball as Ellsbury. Like BDD quoted Eckersley saying:

"I'm not a big Buerhle guy at all. Talk about pitching to contact. Everybody hits him. The only thing good about him is that it doesn't take very long to pitch a game, one way or another. He throws a lot of strikes. I mean not to get on him, lefthanders have always amazed me how they get by. He knows how to pitch obviously, he threw a no-hitter, he's one of the best lefthanders around. I just... I'm afraid of him. I'm afraid of him because he throws too many strikes. I just, Fenway Park, I really don't know. You're only renting him for a couple of months, but beyond that, I'm just not a big fan of his because I think he's very hittable ... to me Gabbard's like Buerhle, but younger and throws harder."

He doesn't quite highlight the upside enough, but I think what he's talking about is what keeps Buerhle from being a top-tier pitcher worthy or multiple top-tier prospects.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, but the guys the sox went out and got had some serious questions attached to them. Coco and Edgar were replacing icons. Lugo had an up and down career and was coming off a down stint in LA and Drew came over as damaged goods. Buehrle is a left handed pitcher capable of throwing 220 innings every single yr and giving you a mid 3 era to low 4's ERA. You can bank it every time. There is something to be said for that. And having him behind the two powerful horses in DiceK aned Beckett would make the sox top 3 ridiculous for the next 5 yrs at least.

[riverside sluggers]

Yeah, but the guys the sox went out and got had some serious questions attached to them. Coco and Edgar were replacing icons. Lugo had an up and down career and was coming off a down stint in LA and Drew came over as damaged goods. Buehrle is a left handed pitcher capable of throwing 220 innings every single yr and giving you a mid 3 era to low 4's ERA. You can bank it every time. There is something to be said for that. And having him behind the two powerful horses in DiceK aned Beckett would make the sox top 3 ridiculous for the next 5 yrs at least.

Thats if he would submit to signing an extension

[jacksonianmarch]

if the sox were willing to throw Lester and Ells their way, you better believe the White Sox would allow a 72hour window.

[TheKilo]

Dispute over no-trade clause may signal end of Buehrle, ChiSox contract talk

By Buster Olney
ESPN The Magazine


...The White Sox had offered Buehrle a four-year, $56 million deal, and Buehrle had insisted on a full no-trade clause. According to a source familiar with negotiations, the White Sox asked for possible solutions to the impasse. Buehrle's side suggested a new structure, without a blanket no-trade clause -- a four-year, $56 million deal, and if Buehrle was traded, then a $17 million player option for 2012 would kick in. This way, if Buehrle were traded, then his deal would get closer to his current market value; five years and $73 million is equal to what Roy Oswalt got with the Astros last fall.

But the White Sox turned down the proposal, and continue to market Buehrle aggressively. Buehrle threw eight scoreless innings Saturday, and as he walked off the field after the top of the eighth, he waved his cap -- perhaps for the last time with the White Sox.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2929267

[Cityofchampions33]

if the sox were willing to throw Lester and Ells their way, you better believe the White Sox would allow a 72hour window.

agreed

[riverside sluggers]

if the sox were willing to throw Lester and Ells their way, you better believe the White Sox would allow a 72hour window.

Yes teh White sox would allow it, but again who says if he will submit to it. The Sox cant force him to sign an extension if he doesnt want to. The 4 years/$56 million was nothing more than a hometown discount offered to the White Sox. In this day and age, Buehrle could very well get close to Zito money

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes teh White sox would allow it, but again who says if he will submit to it. The Sox cant force him to sign an extension if he doesnt want to. The 4 years/$56 million was nothing more than a hometown discount offered to the White Sox. In this day and age, Buehrle could very well get close to Zito money

Right, but you have to look at what you have before you can consider the deal. Buerhle is a great pitcher. A great one. The guy was the ace on a world championship team. Has the same amt of wins as Zito had at this juncture and he has another half season to go. Yet Buerhle has a ton better command and a deeper arsenal. Buerhle is a top tier guy. So is DMats. So is Beckett. You put those three in a rotation in their mid to late 20s and have them inked for another 5 yrs or so, and you can put a serious hurting on the rest of the majors. Add Buchholz who looks really solid at this point as your 5 next yr and maybe Bowden down the line and you could have a very young, strong, deep starting 5. That is how you built this huge lead. Your hitting has been off and on. But your pen and your rotation were solid early while ours disintegrated. With Okaji and Paps in the back of the pen, you have a young core out there and if the rotation gets sured up with another young ace, you guys can dominate for at least another half decade.

I know the question is, IF he signs. You throw enough cash his way and he will. Yeah, it isnt the cheap way to go, but cmon, this is Boston. They are making money hand over fist. And if they were ready to spend 70 mil on broke down drew or 40 mil on Mendoza Lugo, dont you think it would be wise to spend 15 mil a season on a guy who is as dependable as they come, is left handed and can lead a rotation?

[riverside sluggers]

Whoah... Im not saying the Sox shouldnt sign Buehrle. If you have seen my previous posts, Im all for the Sox acquiring him. You dont have to put down everything that I know about this team, what it would be to have him, etc. The point I have been trying to make is that I only want the Sox to give up an Ellsbury for him if they are able to sign him to an extension

Also its easier said than done that they could lock him up for $15 million a year. Buehrle and his agent offered the White Sox a hometown discount of $14 million a year. As I said also in the days and age, Buehrle could get close to Zito type money if he were to hit free agency

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

if the sox were willing to throw Lester and Ells their way, you better believe the White Sox would allow a 72hour window.

Why would the Red Sox trade Jon Lester for Mark Buehrle? Both left handed pitchers but one is much younger than the other. Not to mention Lester has some real good stuff to his arsenal. What is it....because Lester had some rough starts at AAA nobody thinks the kid will be good anymore? Anybody who thinks the Red Sox would trade Lester for an older lefty with less velocity is kinda foolish.

...AND Jacoby Ellsbury....thats just crazy. Thats just doing the White Sox a favor if you ask me.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why would the Red Sox trade Jon Lester for Mark Buehrle? Both left handed pitchers but one is much younger than the other. Not to mention Lester has some real good stuff to his arsenal. What is it....because Lester had some rough starts at AAA nobody thinks the kid will be good anymore? Anybody who thinks the Red Sox would trade Lester for an older lefty with less velocity is kinda foolish.

...AND Jacoby Ellsbury....thats just crazy. Thats just doing the White Sox a favor if you ask me.

Buerhle is at the early end of his prime and is an ace. Buerhle is what you would want Lester to become and is still young enough to be around and dominant for a long period of time. Take off the glasses son. Buerhle was the ace of a world championship team. His resume is much longer and he is likely much better than Lester will become.

[ORS]

Buehrle is still young relative to the league, and let's be honest here, we're all hoping Lester can turn into a pitcher as good as Buehrle has been. It will probably happen, but why not remove the doubt and get the real thing? And Coco is finally showing us the game we thought we were getting. He won't OBP as high as Ellsbury probably will, but he'll hit for much more power. They have a looming redundancy in CF. You trade off redundancy to make up for other gaps, and with Schilling being uncertain, Wake being Jeckyl and Hyde, and Tavarez, there is a gap in the rotation.

Now, I think in order to give up Lester and Ellsbury, they need to hammer out an extension, because that's too much talent for a 3-month rental. But if they can work one out in a 72-hour window, that's a good move, IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

Buehrle is still young relative to the league, and let's be honest here, we're all hoping Lester can turn into a pitcher as good as Buehrle has been. It will probably happen, but why not remove the doubt and get the real thing? And Coco is finally showing us the game we thought we were getting. He won't OBP as high as Ellsbury probably will, but he'll hit for much more power. They have a looming redundancy in CF. You trade off redundancy to make up for other gaps, and with Schilling being uncertain, Wake being Jeckyl and Hyde, and Tavarez, there is a gap in the rotation.

Now, I think in order to give up Lester and Ellsbury, they need to hammer out an extension, because that's too much talent for a 3-month rental. But if they can work one out in a 72-hour window, that's a good move, IMO.

Right on ORS.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Buehrle is still young relative to the league, and let's be honest here, we're all hoping Lester can turn into a pitcher as good as Buehrle has been. It will probably happen, but why not remove the doubt and get the real thing? And Coco is finally showing us the game we thought we were getting. He won't OBP as high as Ellsbury probably will, but he'll hit for much more power. They have a looming redundancy in CF. You trade off redundancy to make up for other gaps, and with Schilling being uncertain, Wake being Jeckyl and Hyde, and Tavarez, there is a gap in the rotation.

Now, I think in order to give up Lester and Ellsbury, they need to hammer out an extension, because that's too much talent for a 3-month rental. But if they can work one out in a 72-hour window, that's a good move, IMO.

I agree with most of what you say except for the power between Ellsbury and Crisp. I know Ellsbury hasn't hit for any power to speak of at this point but there is still reason to believe he can grow into a player with more power. After all he is only 23 years old. Right now Coco Crisp is hot and looks great but even now I don't think he looks that much better than Ellsbury. Both have great speed, play strong defense, and bring a good attitude. But if I had my choice I would want Jacoby Ellsbury for the next 10 years.

As far as Buehrle vs. Lester....nobody is going to confuse the two at this point and yes Mark Buehrle has had an excellent career but he's had lots of innings piled up thus far. He did win a championship and I think he is excellent. However, I have not seen Mark Buehrle mention ONCE that he has a desire to play in Boston. In fact I've seen him say he wants to test free agency and has made comments about wanting to play in St. Louis. Not only that but he is an icon in Chicago. To get a contract agreed upon between the Red Sox and Buehrle there would have to be a no-trade clause just like Chicago is dealing with. Now maybe I'm wrong but don't the Red Sox have strong issues with a no-trade clause. If thats the case than this whole conversation is a waste of time.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why should he mention a desire to play in Boston? And who gives a rats ass if a player has a desire to play somewhere.

Here are the points to hammer home.

Buehrle> Lester and Ellsbury

This is absolutely true right now and is likely true for all time unless you think both are going to reach their potential. And the word potential is used a lot, yet 90% of players never reach it. Buehrle is a young ace who is left handed, pitches fast, and throws strikes. Lester is a kid recovering from cancer who has had questionable control and has shown limited ability to consistently throw strikes to better than your average MiLB hitters. Ellsbury is a kid who has a nice eye and makes good contact, but may have a ceiling of a Juan Pierre and most likely will be a powerless Mark Kotsay. They both may reach the potential and be perenial allstars. But which group, Ells and Lester, or Buerhle will most likely help the sox more. Answer: Buerhle

Also, we all agree that a window would have to be agreed to. If there is a window, who gives a rats ass where he wishes to play. If he signs the contract, then he is showing he wishes to play there. if he doesnt, this entire conversation is moot.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Why should he mention a desire to play in Boston? And who gives a rats ass if a player has a desire to play somewhere.

Here are the points to hammer home.

Buehrle> Lester and Ellsbury

This is absolutely true right now and is likely true for all time unless you think both are going to reach their potential. And the word potential is used a lot, yet 90% of players never reach it. Buehrle is a young ace who is left handed, pitches fast, and throws strikes. Lester is a kid recovering from cancer who has had questionable control and has shown limited ability to consistently throw strikes to better than your average MiLB hitters. Ellsbury is a kid who has a nice eye and makes good contact, but may have a ceiling of a Juan Pierre and most likely will be a powerless Mark Kotsay. They both may reach the potential and be perenial allstars. But which group, Ells and Lester, or Buerhle will most likely help the sox more. Answer: Buerhle

Also, we all agree that a window would have to be agreed to. If there is a window, who gives a rats ass where he wishes to play. If he signs the contract, then he is showing he wishes to play there. if he doesnt, this entire conversation is moot.

No-trade clause = no deal with the Red Sox.

So far I'm very happy with the players who have come through the Red Sox farm system. You mentioned quite a few negatives toward Jon Lester yet he has still managed to post good numbers at all levels. That while still being pretty young and dealing with Cancer.

But you are right....the Red Sox are just breeding a Juan Pierre and a lefty starter who can't get anybody out....that will only be on there good days.