Clement MYTH

[Fire_Theo]

Some dumb baseball fans like to attribute Clement's free fall with him getting hit in the head, and give Theo a free pass because of this unfortunate event.

But here is the TRUTH:

1. Clement's shoulder issues are in no way a result of him getting hit in the head with a line drive.

2. Clement had already begun to fall apart before he got hit in the head.

Here is Matt Clement's game log prior to July 26, 2005:
July 21 - 6 IP, 4 ER
July 16 - 3.2 IP, 6 ER
July 6 - 8.2 IP, 4 ER
July 1 - 6.2 IP, 8 ER
Total - 25 IP, 22 ER

Tough to argue with those numbers.

Anybody who gives Theo a free pass on the Clement Blunder because of the line drive off the head on July 26 is a fool. Clement's free fall had already begun, and he's on the DL now because of a shoulder injury unrelated to the head incident.

That is all. Thank you for your time.

[ORS]

So, he should have forseen the injury? I mean, if Clement's shoulder was hurt, and the shoulder is what made him lose effectiveness, then Theo should have been able to use his MRI-specs to see it? Realistically, that is the only criticism that can be brought.

It's really easy to 20/20 hindsight every move, but think about the information available at the time. They had access to Pedro, so they stayed away for fear of injury - which has been realized. They had no acces to Clement, other than contact with the agent, so they didn't have as much to go on.

[Fire_Theo]

what Theo should have foreseen was:

Clement was a 30 year old pitcher who had never won 15 games and had a career losing record. Try to find pitchers who fit that description. They all suck.

Also, Theo should have looked at Clement's splits from the year before and realized that there might be a reason the Cubs didn't want him any more;
2004:
pre-break: 117 IP, 2.92 ERA
post-break: 63.2 IP, 5.09 ERA

The guy was a scrub when Theo gave him big money, and he was the beneficiary of big run support in the first half of 2005. He was never a great pitcher for the Sox, he had a lot of run support and wasn't capable of pitching a full season.

[ORS]

I guess they only did splits in '04, huh?

Now, run along and find me the '05 splits, where his pitching performance clearly indicates it wasn't just run support in the first half.

Clement is what he is, a stop-gap. He was no long term solution.

EDIT: And, I acknowledge the guy had a history of 2nd half struggles. Given the condition of his shoulder after exploratory surgery, that makes sense, but he always came out of physicals with a clean bill of health. So, I imagine they thought of Clement as an undervalued talent who just needed a fix, similar to Ortiz. Sometimes they'll get it right, sometimes wrong. Ying to the yang, baby. Just take it all in stride.

[Fire_Theo]

wait a second. Clement was a "stop gap" and was not a "long term" solution?

So why did we give him 3 years?!?!?

And just the fact that Theo replaced a Hall of Famer with a "stop gap" is reason enough to fire him. That is insanity. We don't have enough money to risk Pedro for 4 years, but 3 years of Clement is a great "stop gap" option?

If Matt Clement is your Plan B, then you sure as heck better land your Plan A!!


And Ortiz was a 1 year, $1 mill flyer. Not a 3 year, $27 mill flyer, where you ran a Hall of Famer out of town so you could give him a shot.

[ORS]

Well, look at two things, one the farm at the time, and two, the impedning free agent classes. Three years was the gap - if Boomer were younger he would have been tendered for that amount of time. You had some good young arms in the low minors and an impeding draft class that was going to be flush with early picks by swapping parts (Clement and Boomer were parts). The '05 and '06 FA classes didn't have much appeal either. That was the gap.

Why do you keep saying they ran Pedro out of town? You know they didn't, and to continue doing it means you aren't interested in discussing the issue, and only care about your rant. Quit with the mental midgetry and discuss.

[Fire_Theo]

they did run pedro out of town. they never made an offer that they seriously intended him nor expected him to accept. they always kept their offer below market, meaning they wanted to make sure he knew he wasn't wanted, they were only making offers to keep the dumbest fans happy.

this idea that a clement 3 year "stop gap" is reasonable, but keeping a hall of famer for 4 years is too risky, is hillarious. we have $9 mill per for clement, who sucks, but we don't have $13 mill per for a great pitcher like Pedro who could actually make a difference?

i want to hear your opinion on the schilling thread though. is theo running him out of town, like he did with orlando, pedro, johnny and d-lowe? or will theo change his ways for this champion?

[TheKilo]

they did run pedro out of town. they never made an offer that they seriously intended him nor expected him to accept. they always kept their offer below market, meaning they wanted to make sure he knew he wasn't wanted, they were only making offers to keep the dumbest fans happy.

So do you want to pay what the Mets are paying him for what he's producing right now? That, my friend, is the definition of a sunk cost.


this idea that a clement 3 year "stop gap" is reasonable, but keeping a hall of famer for 4 years is too risky, is hillarious. we have $9 mill per for clement, who sucks, but we don't have $13 mill per for a great pitcher like Pedro who could actually make a difference?

Seems to me the move saved them money. Besides, we don't make the playoffs in '05 without Clement's first half.


i want to hear your opinion on the schilling thread though. is theo running him out of town, like he did with orlando, pedro, johnny and d-lowe? or will theo change his ways for this champion?

Orlando was markedly average during his time here. He had an excellent postseason, yes, but I don't see the issue with him going out to sign a better player. And say what you want about Renteria, he is a better player than Orlando Cabrera.

Pedro we've covered.

Johnny Damon looks good now too, huh? I mean the guy can't play CF anymore, and if he moves to first base I think Youkilis will outperform him the rest of the way at close to the league minimum.

DLowe was pretty bad in 2004, if you remember correctly.


Now that we've gone over some of the bad moves Theo has made, why can't we see the good ones?

Signing David Ortiz.

Trading for Curt Schilling.

Signing the 2003 batting champion for peanuts.

Drafting Jonathan Papelbon, Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz (who we don't get if we don't "run Pedro out of town"), Michael Bowden, Jason Place, Lars Anderson, etc. etc.

Signing some Japanese guy to be Dice-K's caddy for a couple years.

The Beckett trade.


Yeah Theo has made some mistakes. But he's also made some GREAT moves. It's not like he's Brian Cashman or anything.

[Fire_Theo]

I would love to be paying Pedro what the Mets are paying him to have him in the post season. Sure as hell beats paying clement $9 mill for nothing.

Thing with you Pedro haters that makes me laugh: You all think he is done. You keep saying "for what he's producing now..."

You do realize that the season doesn't end until October? And that Pedro will produce this year.

And while we might not make the post season without Clement's first half of 2005, we could have won the World Series with Pedro in 2005. That is worth a lot more than making the playoffs.

[ORS]

Why should anybody continue to discuss anything with you when you continually make shit up as a tenet to your argument? Read the link I provided about the Pedro offer in one the 345 threads you have created in the last 3 nanoseconds. They made him a fair offer.

[Fire_Theo]

they didn't make pedro a "fair offer". They made pedro an offer that they knew was below the competition, thus had no chance of being accepted. They did this as an insult to drive him out of town.

this was an intentional low ball, not a fair offer.

let's see if they do the same with schills this year. and let's see if theo apologists defend the low ball for schills.

[ORS]

they didn't make pedro a "fair offer". They made pedro an offer that they knew was below the competition, thus had no chance of being accepted. They did this as an insult to drive him out of town.

this was an intentional low ball, not a fair offer.

let's see if they do the same with schills this year. and let's see if theo apologists defend the low ball for schills.
Facts are fun. Read the link I provided, and eat crow, because you are flat out wrong.

[Fire_Theo]

what link? the espn one saying that the sox made a 3 year offer when the mets were offering 4 years?

yeah, i read that, and it backs up the point. theo made an offer he never expected not wanted to be accepted because he wanted pedro gone.

the did not make pedro a "fair offer", they lowballed him.

[Thumper]

what link? the espn one saying that the sox made a 3 year offer when the mets were offering 4 years?

yeah, i read that, and it backs up the point. theo made an offer he never expected not wanted to be accepted because he wanted pedro gone.

the did not make pedro a "fair offer", they lowballed him.

You done living in the past?

Regardless, we've got a good team this year. We're STILL 9 games ahead for first. Why be a bitch?

[ORS]

You did read it, but you failed the reading for content part. The Sox had the highest 3 year offer on the table per year. That is fair, and certainly not a lowball. The deal maker was the 4 years, but the Mets were desperate and noboy else would go 4. Not the Sox, not the Cards, etc, etc.

And, the timeline was, Mets offer 3/37.5, Sox offer 3/40.5, Mets offer 4/52. Sorry, but the facts of the matter just don't agree with you, but that's not strange, they rarely do. How 'bout them apples?