What The Red Sox Lineup Should Look Like

[CrespoBlows]

Rememeber that lineup last year, that would never stop scoring? Why don't we model it like that?

1. Damon CF
2. Youkillis 3B
3. Garciaparra SS
4. Ramriez LF
5. Ortiz DH
6. Millar 1B
7. Nixon RF
8. Mueller 2B
9. Vartiek C

[JMDurron]

Mueller at 2B? Why? Millar batting 6th, ahead of Nixon and Varitek? I know Varitek's slumping, but he's still better than Millar. That also leaves us with a bench of Kapler, McCarty, Pokey, Mirabelli, and Bellhorn. We could pinch run or have defensive substitutions, but no solid pinch hitting (not a big market for pinch walking). That's kinda scary.

My suggestion:

1) Damon CF
2) Bellhorn 2B
3) Ortiz DH
4) Manny LF
5) Nixon RF
6) Nomar SS
7) Varitek C
8) Mueller 3B
9) Millar 1B

Flip Trot/Nomar as you see fit, but I get annoyed with having 1-pitch outs too high in the order. I'm also not sold on Nomar getting his power back. Millar is easily the worst hitter in this lineup (could argue Bellhorn, but only by ignoring OBP), so I want him 9th. This also leaves a bench of Kapler, McCarty, Pokey, Youkilis, and Mirabelli. Gives the bench defensive options (Pokey, Kapler, McCarty), running options (Pokey, Kapler if desperate), and more than one solid pinch hitter (Youk, Mirabelli).

[noonanberg]

Why is Millar in both of your lists? Even last year he was only good until about June. It's time to forget about him. Here's how I would do it:

1) Damon CF
2) Bellhorn 2B
3) Garciapara SS (esp. if he keeps his hitting streak)
4) Ramirez LF
5) Ortiz DH
6) Nixon RF
7) Varitek C
8) Youkilis 3B
9) Daubach 1B (Get Dauber out of the minors. He's better than Millar on every level, and when hot can be a solid hitter, esp. for a number nine.)

Rotate Reese in at second and Mueller at third every once in a while. Mueller also gives you a great guy of the bench if you need him. If Nixon is hurting, give Kapler some playing time in right. He has potential at the plate, and brings solid fielding and speed to the lineup. McCarty can occassionally fill in for Dauber, but let's start using him out of the 'pen too. Give Embree a rest once in a while. As for Millar: keep those sunflower seeds coming.

[JMDurron]

The reason I put Millar in is because Ortiz can hit great, and play lousy D. McCarty can play great D, and is lousy at the plate. Millar's the closest thing to middle ground that we have at 1B. The only way I take him off 1B is A) In NL parks, or B ) When Bellhorn or Youkilis prove they can play the position

Mueller over Youk is a tad risky. I think Mueller is going to recover nicely, and that we may need a right handed bat off the bench who can actually HIT RHP more than we'll need Youk playing every day.

[elsrbueno]

Considering the Sox' defensive woes, I'm shocked you all left Reese out of the lineup. Noony got it pretty decent, because I love Daubach. Here's my take:

1) Damon CF
2) Youkilis/Mueller 3B
3) Ortiz DH
4) Ramirez LF
5) Nixon RF
6) Garciapara SS
7) Varitek C
8) Reese 2B
9) Daubach 1B

Tony LaRussa (a pretty good manager) once made a comment about alternating lefty/righty hitters in the lineup so it's harder for the other manager to make the decision to put in a "specialist."

I still remember when Atlanta was a powerhouse, and got dominated by otherwise worthless lefty's (Grahme Lloyd) because Chipper Jones/Fred McGriff/Ryan Klesko hit back to back to back in the middle of the order. (Yes, Chipper's a switch hitter, but was dreadful while hitting right handed at the time).

Thus, my reasoning for the alternation.

Other comments:
I think Garciaparra's got to break out of his slump. He simply isn't this bad a player.

Ortiz is a VERY dangerous hitter. He should be really dangerous with Manny behind him. (Note. This MAY cause Ramirez to be walked more, but when Nixon's on, he is also very dangerous).

I gotta have Reese in there because of his defense.

I have Youk hitting #2 because of his history for OBP.

Call up Daubach, send Millar to AAA (if he refuses assignment, let him go)

[JMDurron]

Considering the team's defensive woes whether Pokey's been in the game or not, I'm shocked that you're willing to add another black hole to the lineup for an improvement at one position. Daubach's no better than Millar when you have him face LHP, he actually might be a bit worse, and I'm not a Millar fan.

Also, given that this is Youk's first year in the big leagues, he doesn't technically have a history of OBP at this level. He may be building one now, but he doesn't have it quite yet. Mueller has also always been more comfortable hitting lower in the order, so you can't really plug him in at #2. I really don't think that the top 4 of our order can be optimized any more than it already has been.

1) Damon (Speed, OBP)
2) Bellhorn (OBP, some power)
3) Ortiz (Two OBP guys in front = runs!)
4) Manny (Just for when Ortiz misses)

If you're desperate to get Pokey in the lineup, then put Bellhorn at 3B and have Pokey at 2B, or have Nomar DH with Ortiz at 1B, Bellhorn at 2B, and Pokey at SS. In one case, you have no Youk/Mueller, and in the other, you get Ortiz fielding. I'm not sure that those negatives don't overwhelm Pokey's defensive contributions.

[elsrbueno]

If everyone's hitting up to par (which I agree hasn't happened yet this year) I don't mind the Bellhorn for Reese offensive downgrade.

That being said, I really like Bellhorn and don't think he's really the cause of this team's horrible play.

I think the biggest problem has been first base. Ortiz is an awesome bat over there, but his best value is as DH.

I think the Sox will be better of IF:

Kevin Millar never plays OF. He's OK at first, but I really don't have confidence in him as an outfielder. This team needs more RANGE out there!

The Red Sox upgrade at first base.

The Red Sox upgrade PITCHING!!

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by elsrbueno@Jul 6 2004, 01:44 PM
If everyone's hitting up to par (which I agree hasn't happened yet this year) I don't mind the Bellhorn for Reese offensive downgrade.

That being said, I really like Bellhorn and don't think he's really the cause of this team's horrible play.

I think the biggest problem has been first base. Ortiz is an awesome bat over there, but his best value is as DH.

I think the Sox will be better of IF:

Kevin Millar never plays OF. He's OK at first, but I really don't have confidence in him as an outfielder. This team needs more RANGE out there!

The Red Sox upgrade at first base.

The Red Sox upgrade PITCHING!!
My argument for when everyone is hitting up to par is that we can afford to downgrade offensively...from Millar to McCarty. Keep Bellhorn's OBP in that #2 spot. Who bats 2nd when Mueller plays, otherwise? Nomar? You want one-pitch outs coming up five times a game?

You said yourself that 1B is the biggest problem, and with Ortiz at DH and Bellhorn over Pokey at 2B, we can get away with McCarty's excellent defense at 1B.

As for pitching, we could use a slight upgrade, I agree.

[CrespoBlows]

Bellhorn shouldn't even be in the lineup, he strikes out to much, and doesn't have the speed to score. This OBP is way overrated. It doesn't matter if Ortiz is has a 400+ OBP, he isn't fast enough to score. Bellhorn can't do anything besides walk, at least Youkillis can hit the ball. Pokey is great at defense, but the man can't hit the broad side of a barn. Mueller has played at 2nd before and wouldn't be too bad there.

[gosox613]

i think that mueller definetly deserves the 3b spot, although youkillis has proven himself....i think that rather then putting milar at 1b we should put in Mccartly only because he is good defesively and he can probably hit better then millar, (c'mon, milar has less homeruns then mirabelli and mirabelli plays only every 5 games milar needs to stop doing commercials and focus on baseball) plus pokey is way to amazing to put in bellhorn for him, bellhorn may have some clutch hits every once and a while but he still just stands there hoping for a walk most of the time. if ortiz is playing first and manny is playing lf, then we should put mirabelli in the cather spot and put varitek in the dh spot. this would be because mirabelli is a much better fieling cather and varitek is there for his offense

[CrespoBlows]

Where do you put Ortiz then?

[gosox613]

at dh if mc carty was starting at 1st, but if you want to do the swap of the catchers then you would put ortiz at 1st

[CrespoBlows]

I think the Red Sox should go get John Olerud and bench Kevin Millar. Well maybe he could spell Nixon aganist lefties.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by CrespoBlows@Jul 6 2004, 02:50 PM
This OBP is way overrated. It doesn't matter if Ortiz is has a 400+ OBP, he isn't fast enough to score.
OBP would be overrated if you were talking about a 3-4-5 hitter. For a 1-2 hitter, OBP is potentially huge. How exactly do you think Ortiz became the AL RBI leader? He's had Damon and Bellhorn getting on for him all year! I really don't get why people are so quick to ignore Bellhorn, I know he looks like the poster child for Valium, but he can get on base and hit.

[elsrbueno]

Olerud's got the glove, but does he still have the bat? His production this year is way down.

If the Sox want a good glove, no bat first baseman, they already have McCarty.

[gosox613]

i wouldnt quite say that mc carty is no bat, but i do think that olerud is not a great acquisition if we were to make any upgrades i think i should be our starter, considering some of our starters have really done poorly

[CrespoBlows]

Olreud is hitting .255 with 5 homeruns. I'll bet he would benfiet from hitting at Fenway, he is a lefty I think? McCarty can't hit at all, Millar doesn't even know what an RBI is.

[CrespoBlows]

The Sox should add Tony Armas Jr, and John Olereud (can't spell his name).

[gosox613]

i still dont think that 1b is the teams main concern

[JMDurron]

I think that the team's main concern is all in their minds, or in their hearts (or the lack thereof). However, since we can't do anything about that, we might as well nitpick about what we think could be improved. That pretty much leaves 1B and #5 starter/long relief.

[elsrbueno]

Gosox,
If I had a choice between significantly upgrading the pitching staff and significantly upgrading first base, I'd choose pitching. BUT, first base has been a big problem for the Sox this year.

Ortiz is a great bat, and is still the team's top clutch hitter. His defense isn't all that great.

Millar seems lost at the plate this year. He also has made a bunch of big errors at first base this year.

I also think some of the throwing errors would have been outs with a better first baseman.

I like an idea I heard a while back about Nick Johnson of Montreal (patient, solid hitter, good defense) but I don't know if Montreal would trade him

[Zenny]

Every day that I think about the Nomar and Lowe for Penny/Pavano and Gonzalez/Choi, the more I wish it would happen. What would really be crazy is if we traded for Pavano and Tony Armas Jr. Then all the pieces of the Pedro Martinez trade would be here!

[sarasoxfan]

huh? First base is where you think we need help?

It would help to get rid of Millar there first base solved. Do all the way McCarty defensive replacement. Problem solved.

Bellhorn good bye. He's awful had a couple of cluth hits early but those strike outs and the beautiful rally end DP's have to go.

The bullpen needs help and we nned a manager who knows how to use them.

Everybody or somebody is always resting. Torre uses his bullpen brilliantly.

We keep getting these stiffs. why? Leskaniac..who was doof from the Cubs. And embree should pack...Williamson if he is healthy ant Timlin and Foulke and one other guy.

I think Dave Wallace must be a problem. Because our guys collectively give up more runs early than any pitching staff I have ever seen. <PLease dont stat me here with the second best ERAin the American League or whatever, we have been sucky>

Plus, if you ask me Brandon and Lowe just aint doing it. But we keep sending them out there to be massacred. There is time, but there has to be a point soon when the things we are trying arent working.

Clearly, I havent thrown in the stats you guys do, but hey, I live and die by the sox and these are my opinions.

All I know, forgive my english is I WANT TO FUCKING SEE SOME WINNING NOW&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[gosox613]

i find that ridiculous.

our bullpen has done fine. Leskanic is not a stiff and embree does NOT need to pack, he has done fine. but i will admit that francona is not the best manager when it comes to using the bullpen.

one case of this is in atlanta when we were down by four thatnks to LOWE and francona brings in this new guy from chicago. what we needed in that situation was embree or timlin to keep us in grasp of the game but insteadwe gave up a few more runs. francona need to learn how to use his bullpen correctly, which would be by not saving the best guys for last