Hanley to CF?

[NYH]

There was a story on Hanley Ramirez in this week's Sporting News. The Sox would be willing to try him at a different position because we have Renteria for the next four years. At 6'3" and 195lbs he might have the physical tools to take over for Damon eventually. Any thoughts?

[CrespoBlows]

Possibly, I'd put him there just because there are other prospects blocking him to move at other postions, Pedrioa (2b) and Soto (3b)

I want to see at least 10 HR's from Ramriez this year before we name him the starting CF in '06.

[NYH]

What are the odds that Damon returns in 06?

[yankeessuck013]

What are the odds that Damon returns in 06?

thus far nothing has been offered From ESPN Rumor Central....

Mar. 10 - Johnny Damon, who's in the final year of his contract, and his agent are waiting to hear from the Red Sox to begin talks, the Boston Globe reports. Damon is in a similar situation as Jason Varitek, Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe, and Nomar Garciaparra faced last season.
While Martinez (Mets), Lowe (Dodgers), and Garciaparra (Cubs) seemed affected at times last year by their status, Damon believes he'll fall more closely in line with Varitek, who wound up re-signing with the Sox, and not let the uncertainty affect his 2005 season if a deal is not struck.

"I'd like to finish up my career here and get locked up for a long time," Damon told the newspaper. "I know it's always been Red Sox policy to wait until after the season, but that can get hairy. … I don't want to be looking over my shoulder at the All-Star break and thinking, 'OK, what's going on here.' "


****I think that this is Johnny Damon's last year with the Red Sox.* As great as he is, he gets paid $8 million a year, and I'm not sure if the Sox will want to sign him to a long term deal at those dollars.* If he has a year like he did last year, that may change.* He was great last year, but not so great in 2003.* See what happens.

[yeszir]

I was always a fan of moving Hanley to either 2b or OF. It used to be because we were supposed to have Nomar for a long time, and now it's Renteria. He'll be ready within the next four years, without a doubt, and we have to put him somewhere. His defense is tradtionally shaky, something that was supposed to have been worked out earlier but wasn't, which I think is the main argument for switching him to the OF.

[CrespoBlows]

He's got tremedous range, and great instincts for an OF. I don't want to see him ending up like Soriano at 2B (defensively) I think he'd be a tremendous defensive CF, but then again that's Moss' position. Too damn confusing

[BoSox Rule]

Hanley's too big to move to 2B.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Uh.... i always thought this, but isin't Millar and Mueller's contract up after this season? If so, why not make Youk a full time 1b and Hanley 3b?

[BoSox Rule]

I like Hanley's athleticism/range to think of him at thirdbase.

[CrespoBlows]

I doubt both of them will be regulars, for the Red Sox

[Zenny]

I still think Hanley is our 2006 CF. Pedroia will end up at 2B, Youkilis will be Mueller's replacement. We'll go outside the organization for a 1B (Lance Berkman?).

Moss isn't a CF now, he's an RF. I've been advocating a position switch, but now that Hanley could be our CF, I see Moss as Trot's replacement. They're very similar players, but with a little more power in Trot's favor and a little more average and OBP out of Moss. Granted, there's still a lot of room for power development out of Moss, who's no slouch in the department at his age, but he's also a prime burnout candidate given his history prior to this season. He's still a damned good prospect (#72 in baseball), but there's always that one-year wonder potential. I see him hitting for a lower average, but with better plate discipline and power between Wilmington and Portland next season. I don't see him being ready for another 2-3 years, despite what I had been saying earlier this offseason.

A player to watch out for is Mickey Hall, who was Augusta's RF last season. He has retarded power potential (IsoP of .201) and takes a lot of walks (IsoOBP of .096), but his average was awful last season (.246) and he struck out way too much (134 K's in 403 AB's). If he puts it all together, he could be extrememly good, but he's wicked raw and needs at least 3 more seasons under his belt.

[sarasoxfan]

I agree with yeszir about one thing -he'll be ready in four years.

So far he hasnt accomplished very much, but continues to overwhleming support and believers in here.
How can you even mention damon and hanley in the same breath, much less youk and billy. You guys get so jazzed unproven prospects, they are a dime a dozen, I saw him play here and he couldnt get the ball out of the field. I think he had one whopping one home in A ball..He is still in AA and might stay there to start this year.
I will bet anyone that hanley wont be in the organziation to play centerfield or aany position. As far as Youk goes, I frankly dont care where he plays or for whom, billy meuller is the man and hopefully will be aorund for awhile.
God, I hope they re-sign damon..so this thinking can go away..

I love the quote "if he puts it all together, he could be etxremely good..."...
I would like to think that applies to any one and every one.

get over these guys they are 3 or 4 years away from being major leaguers, and youk is a slow utility guy at best.
We have one of the best leadoff hitters in baseball and a batting champ one year removed at third.
That is okay by me.

[BoSox Rule]

If I remember correctly, Hanley was injured when he played in A Ball this year, hitting 1 HR and slugging .389. However, he still hit .310 with a .364 OBP. I don't know how that is relevant because he went to AA and went .310/.360/.512/.872 with 5 HR (25 per 162) with 10 walks to 26 strikeouts.

He also went 25/35 in stolen bases this year. Now that he is healthy, I would'nt be surprised to see his first .900 OPS season since his 2002 season (not including 6 games this year in the GCL)

[sarasoxfan]

at AAA?

[Zenny]

Mueller's only played three full seasons in his nine season career and only one (2003) since 2000. His knees are awful. He's just had another surgery on them. There's no way he's a batting champion any longer; he showed it last season and he'll show it again this season. I'll be shocked if he plays more than 120 games on the knees. He's been injury-prone his entire career and he's going to be 34 in 4 days. Youkilis is certainly capable of .280/.360/.440 seasons that Mueller would produce. I see no drop off. Mueller isn't exactly greased lightning on the basepaths either.

Don't expect another .304/.380/.477 season out of Johnny. It was clearly his best yet and an outstanding season behind only Ichiro as a leadoff man, but his career average is .287/.351/.431, which is skewed a bit too high due to the season he just had. He's going to be 31 this season and he's going to ask for a huge contract. His speed is on the decline also and he only stole 19 bags last year, after having at least 30 in the last two seasons with us.

I'm glad you know so much about Hanley after seeing him in three at bats. That makes me so confident in you. You know why he hit 1 homer in high-A? He had a dislocated shoulder. He hit 5 in AA in 129 AB's when he got healthy. I love how you cherry-pick stats that you'd like to fit your argument.

Look, if Hanley sucked, I'd be the first one to say it. He doesn't. He has tremendous athletic ability, he's Baseball America's #10 overall prospect and he was crushing the ball in AA as a 20 year-old in a league full of 22 and 23 year-olds. He's going to split the year between Portland and Pawtucket and continue to hit the tar out of the ball against players who are much older than he is.

I don't know why you have such a hatred for young players. It's that kind of backwards attitude that runs a franchise into the ground while attempting to maintain the status quo for too long of an extended period of time. Look at the Seattle Mariners. They steadily got worse from 2001 and everything fell apart in 2004 because they desperately tried to hang on to what wasn't there anymore. Then look at the Atlanta Braves. They got rid of Neagle. They got rid of Avery. They got rid of Glavine. They got rid of Maddux. They're still one of the premier teams in the game by recognizing the young talent they possess, getting it on the field and using veterans to fill in the holes.

[BoSox Rule]

sarasoxfan, tell me what Nomar was doing when he was Hanley's age. Hanley Ramirez has followed Miguel Tejada's career path to-a-T so far.

[mosox]

As good a spring as Hanley is having I still think he's trade bait on a Ben Sheets deal in July.

[BoSox Rule]

Ben Sheets isn't going anywhere, and even if he does the Brewers have much better options.

[Zenny]

Sheets isn't a free agent after this season. He's under contract through '06 and he and the Brewers are nearing a multi-year deal similar to what Santana got. I think they'll finalize it after this season, in which he dominates yet again.

[sarasoxfan]

some of things I read from you guys just make me roar with laughter--

"followed Tejada's career path to a T"...

that really makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
What they both play baseball, and were in the minors...

'It's the kind of backwards thinking than runs franchises in to the ground"

I wasnt aware that my thinking had that much impact on management, or that I could be responsible for bringing nay running a franchise into the ground. I'm a fan just like you, and your definitive predictions about who will do this or that are just that predicitions.

"and continue to hit the tar out of the ball.."

a defintive remark, is it a promise!

I just wouldnt get so jazzed about a kid who hasnt been in the show yet.
You guys have him running around center field already and the guy cant even buy beer yet.

[sarasoxfan]

there's a lot..a lot of culture here.

[RedSoxRooter]

I don't know why you have such a hatred for young players. It's that kind of backwards attitude that runs a franchise into the ground while attempting to maintain the status quo for too long of an extended period of time.I'd agree with you if Boston were Seattle or Oakland, but we're not. We have a big payroll and last year was proof (at least to break the "curse") that Boston needs a veteran team to win with all the pressure and shit in the media. Young guys usually don't pan out in Boston. Look at Nomar for God's sake - even he didn't pan out if the true goal is to win the World Series in Boston.

Our prospects are basically nothing more than bargaining chips for the team. If a real, REAL BIG prospect a-la another Clemens comes along, then I think the Sox would keep him. If it comes down to Damon having another great year and signing him for 3 years at 9 million/year, the Sox can afford that and will probably make an offer. We are not a poor team so keeping a rookie because he's cheaper than an established player is not even an option.

Damon I think we have to keep, even if it means paying too much. He's a lot like Tek in that way. Of course it aint my money, so I say spend away!

[Zenny]

Roar with laughter? Why, from ignorance?

that really makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
What they both play baseball, and were in the minors...
Why don't you look up the stats. As a matter of fact, Hanley holds the advantage over Tejada in the minors. At age 20, Tejada hit .279/.356/.459 with a ~.5 BB/k in high-A. At age 20, Hanley hit .310/.360/.389 in high-A due to injury, recovered and hit .310/.364/.512 in AA with a ~.4 BB/K. What, do you not like the fact that he put up 6 homers last year? If you extrapolate Hanley's healthy AA season over 400 at bats instead of 129, he would've hit 16+. Advantage: Hanley.


I wasnt aware that my thinking had that much impact on management, or that I could be responsible for bringing nay running a franchise into the ground. I'm a fan just like you, and your definitive predictions about who will do this or that are just that predicitions.
I'm not saying your thinking, you ego-maniac. I'm saying your type of thinking in other people. My projections are based on stats, scouting reports and prior experience. I'm still trying to figure out the arbitrary measures you judge by.


a defintive remark, is it a promise!
There is nothing definitive in baseball. What is definitive is that all the stats, peripheral or major, point to Hanley having one hell of a season next year.


I just wouldnt get so jazzed about a kid who hasnt been in the show yet.
You guys have him running around center field already and the guy cant even buy beer yet.
You know what makes him damn good? The fact that he isn't eligible to buy beer yet. He was excellent against guys 3 years his elder. That's an excellent judge of a player with star potential.

Look, I am not the only person who thinks this way about Hanley. Both Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus are very high on him and they are much more reputable than you are. As far as him not making the show yet, they have to start somewhere. At age 20, Nomar was in college. At age 20, Tejada was a step behind Hanley.

If you actually came back with something tangible instead of laughing like a retard with no evidence to support your statement, I'd have some respect for what you say. Instead, I'll just listen to the thousands of more reputable others who like Hanley.

[Zenny]

Young guys usually don't pan out in Boston. Look at Nomar for God's sake - even he didn't pan out if the true goal is to win the World Series in Boston.
You honestly believe that Nomar didn't pan out? If Hanley turns into Nomar, I'd be more than happy.


Our prospects are basically nothing more than bargaining chips for the team. If a real, REAL BIG prospect a-la another Clemens comes along, then I think the Sox would keep him. If it comes down to Damon having another great year and signing him for 3 years at 9 million/year, the Sox can afford that and will probably make an offer. We are not a poor team so keeping a rookie because he's cheaper than an established player is not even an option.
We haven't had any real prospects since Nomar and Trot. The rest, like Sele, Suppan and Rose, were fringe guys. We've had an awful farm system for a long time. I'm not saying we should get rid of veterans for the sake of having younger guys in the lineup. I'm saying that it can prove to be a waste of money to sign these older guys to albatross contracts when there's younger talent that can produce the same type of season for a fraction of the cost.


Damon I think we have to keep, even if it means paying too much. He's a lot like Tek in that way. Of course it aint my money, so I say spend away!
If Damon goes out and hits like 2004, I say keep him. If he reverts to pre-2004 form, it's not worth the money he's going to be asking for.

[RedSoxRooter]

So then, *if* Damon can produce like 2004, what the hell do you do with Hanley?? Personally, I'd love for him to be at second or third. Actually, second because I hate bellhose. But that's just me. Mueller's days are numbered, but I don't see Hanley having any power against a third baseman we could probably get in a trade.

[RedSoxRooter]

You honestly believe that Nomar didn't pan out? .
I hate to say it, but no. If he didn't grow up in a Sox uniform and was coming here at 31 instead of leaving, I think he'd have enjoyed playing in Boston even more. He was awesome, but in the end it all got to him. I think the pressure in Boston is terrible for a young guy to deal with - at least it used to be. Here's to all that pressure being gone now. I hope anyway.

[BoSox Rule]

I'd agree with you if Boston were Seattle or Oakland, but we're not. We have a big payroll and last year was proof (at least to break the "curse") that Boston needs a veteran team to win with all the pressure and shit in the media. Young guys usually don't pan out in Boston. Look at Nomar for God's sake - even he didn't pan out if the true goal is to win the World Series in Boston. I know you didn't just judge a prospect panning out on the account of a team goal. Maybe I misunderstood.

[RedSoxRooter]

Well, I can't sit here an say that having a prospect pan out over 5 years is more important that winning, can I?

[Zenny]

The team around him had more to do with the team's success than Nomar did. Also, his personality just didn't fit. He was never meant to be "The Guy". By all accounts, Hanley flourishes under pressure, like the pressure he faced in the Dominican World Series in which he hit 5 homers in limited at bats for Licey.

[Zenny]

So then, *if* Damon can produce like 2004, what the hell do you do with Hanley?? Personally, I'd love for him to be at second or third. Actually, second because I hate bellhose. But that's just me. Mueller's days are numbered, but I don't see Hanley having any power against a third baseman we could probably get in a trade.
Then we're in a good situation to have. That means that we have a lot of depth with quality players. I don't see Mueller coming back for another year. His knees are shot. Should Pedroia continue to produce, that makes the 2B situation difficult. You have the incumbent Bellhorn, Hanley and Pedroia all battling for the spot.

If Damon is brought back, I don't see Hanley returning, unless we unload Renteria on someone else looking to make a splash.

[yeszir]

I hate to say it, but no. If he didn't grow up in a Sox uniform and was coming here at 31 instead of leaving, I think he'd have enjoyed playing in Boston even more. He was awesome, but in the end it all got to him. I think the pressure in Boston is terrible for a young guy to deal with - at least it used to be. Here's to all that pressure being gone now. I hope anyway.
In my opinion, the whole "pressure in Boston" situation is overblown. What did Nomar in was the wrist and the fan negativity, which is different than pressure. Pressure is a need to perform. Negativity is fans screaming at you, calling you selfish, and wishing you out of town.

If it really had been the pressure in Boston, and if it really is bad for young players, how did Nomar manage to hit above .320 from '98-'00? It makes no sense to say that the pressure got to him after he won two batting titles. If anything he should have improved. I agree with you that he didn't fully develop with the sox, but lets not try to shift the blame to the pressure of playing in Boston.

[yeszir]

Oh, by the way Zenny and RedSoxRooter, are you guys racing to 1000 posts?

[RedSoxRooter]

If it really had been the pressure in Boston, and if it really is bad for young players, how did Nomar manage to hit above .320 from '98-'00? .The pressure comes from putting up those numbers and being able to manage the media at the same time. When he first came up he had Roger, Mo and then Pedro to be "the stars" of the team. When the burden fell upon him to produce and be the star (once pedro's star started to fade), he blew it.

Maybe pressure is too strong a word. But the "expectation" of home grown tallent is too much in Boston. We all expect really good prospects, like Hanley, to be the next Williams, Yaz, Greenwell, Rice, Nomar, etc - because if they are not, why keep them? Why invest the time?

As fans we love them, but the media will tear them up if they don't turn out. As they did with Nomar even though he was injured. The place is just tough for young players.

[BoSox Rule]

Nomar was never really THE star of the team.

1997- Vaughn
1998- Pedro & Nomar
1999- Pedro & Nomar
2000- Pedro & Nomar
2001- Manny
2002- Manny, Pedro, and Nomar
2003- Pedro, Manny, Ortiz. & Nomar
2004- Manny, Pedro, Ortiz & Schilling

[Zenny]

RSR, you really are overplaying the whole young player thing. Nomar was God until the contract stuff came out and he faded at the age of 30. I really don't see where any of this is coming from.

[Zenny]

By the way, sarasox fan, Remy was falling all over himself today to talk about the kind of athlete Hanley is in the field and on the bases. He was a bit late on those fastballs, but they were in the 96 MPH range and most guys would've been late on them. He fought them all off and managed an opposite field double on one of them.

[sarasoxfan]

i respect remy and indeed have always agreed the guy is a prospect, I just oject to your the perpetual fawning over a prospect who is years away from being ripe. I think the Tejada conmparison is as total stretch. It's simplitistic, and pointless. There are probably loads of all-stars who dont have the numbers hanley has, and some guys who are stiffs who have better minor league numbers--in my opinion it is not a helpful way to judge talent. That being said, the redsox rarely wait for these guys to develop--hiostorically speaking, they play to win now, and usually use these guys as trade bait later on. He may turn out to be as good as you predict and he may not, but getting back to thread I would be stunned if he played center in 06 or was in the majors in 06-

[sarasoxfan]

RSR and yeszir have hit the nail on the head from different perspectives, and identified the real issues here and one of the intangible points that again render the Tejada comparison way of thinking again as ridiculous.

Boston is boston, and oakland is oakland....teams that thrive on bringing along talent...have a certain degree of patience from management, the fans and the press , that doesnt exist in boston. The tigers had those pitchers who lost 20 losses ( i think maroth and bondemann) to get major league experience would that ever happen in boston they would be shot on sight and/or traded...booed, spat on, kicked, yelled at and worse--made to have dinner with Yanksin2010--inhuman I know but the kind of punishment reserved for real criminals.
Your boy has already had some maturity issues and that might be something to consider--cold calcuated re-quoting of Baseball america prospect lists and quoting stats may sound smart, but these other guys seem to be onto something that is more relaistic...and might effect a young star developing in boston, more than big numbers in portland.

[sarasoxfan]

PS:

Have you considered that the article in the globe and remy's remarks might be part of a concerted effort to make this kid sound more ready then he is--and thus make him more appealing as trade bait..sound slike something the bush administration might do, but it seems plausible.

[Zenny]

i respect remy and indeed have always agreed the guy is a prospect, I just oject to your the perpetual fawning over a prospect who is years away from being ripe. I think the Tejada conmparison is as total stretch. It's simplitistic, and pointless. There are probably loads of all-stars who dont have the numbers hanley has, and some guys who are stiffs who have better minor league numbers--in my opinion it is not a helpful way to judge talent. That being said, the redsox rarely wait for these guys to develop--hiostorically speaking, they play to win now, and usually use these guys as trade bait later on. He may turn out to be as good as you predict and he may not, but getting back to thread I would be stunned if he played center in 06 or was in the majors in 06-
What do you care to base the anti-Tejada comparison sentiment on? They are similar in lots of ways, from scouting reports to physical size to age relative to level to plate discipline to overall ability they possessed at the same career stage. It's almost uncanny at how similar the two are.

Guys that are good in the minors but suck in the majors are one of two things: physical guys who can't control the plate or poor athletes who get exposed when their inferior physical tools (or stuff in the case of a pitcher) is placed up against the best of the best. Hanley knows how to control the plate and he's a superior athlete. He doesn't fit into either of these categories. There's always the potential for him to get hurt, but that's a different issue that can affect anyone.

There has never been a player that has sucked in the minors and been good in the majors. Don't even try using Jeff Bagwell because he was incredible at controlling the plate and hit an assload of doubles, showing lots of power potential that manifested itself soon after.

As far as that Maroth/Bonderman comparison, it's only valid to a certain extent. Bonderman was jumped all the way from high-A to the majors. He missed the two most pivotal developmental steps and should have reached the majors at the middle of last season, not at the beginning of '03. Big mistake by Detroit. Maroth was just an inferior pitcher on a team that had one of the worst offenses of all-time, compounding the fact that he sucked with zero run support. Yes, that wouldn't been tolerated in a market like Boston, but competent managment would never have allowed it to get to that point.

If Hanley plays in Boston, it'll be because he's ready. Nomar was ready; he started. If Hanley hits like he can in AAA this season and Damon does not return, Theo will in all likelihood put the kid in CF.

[Zenny]

Your boy has already had some maturity issues and that might be something to consider--cold calcuated re-quoting of Baseball america prospect lists and quoting stats may sound smart, but these other guys seem to be onto something that is more relaistic...and might effect a young star developing in boston, more than big numbers in portland.
The maturity issues are behind him. He was a kid trying to adjust to a new country and language at age 18 and 19. I know all of us were idiots at that age, nevermind going to a new country where no one spoke a language you understood. All of that is behind him.

Name the last big prospect anyone had that fizzled out because he couldn't handle pressure. If you can do that for me, I'll give you a million dollars. There are always underlying things (plate discipline, physical tools, injury) that cause a player to fizzle out and pressure is none of them. Please, I'd love to agree with you, but you don't have any real examples or prior experience to judge this on. I eagerly await your response.

[sarasoxfan]

wow he's 20---"all of that is behind him".um, 18 and 19 indeed are behind him..but please.how do you know??? again one of your seemingly impressive and exrtaordinarily definitive remarks about something you couldnt possibly have any knowledge of-now that I see it yet again--that's what bugs me---nothing personal mind you...just snotty remarks with this plugged in holier than thou attitude--Does he call you before he does something stupid. Hi Zenny--"yeah it's Hanley--wow, I have matured in a year..yo..yo..yo...did you see babeball america..yeah, wow. dude..yeah take care and thnaks for your support"..

I strongly doubt theo will put a guy who has limited home run power and no experience in CF becasue he's a good athlete if god forbid damon leaves--a free agent a trade with a prospect like hanley, for example....

uncanny how similar they are-except for one is now an all-star and one is 20...-I still think it's a strech..kind of like the way you misquote me.

I didnt say sucked in the minors...and although those guys talked about pressure--I said there is more patience on other clubs to let these guys mature, and not so in boston.

How many minor leaguers have gfone through the redsox system since nomar and not been brought up--a lot.

Management luckiy doesnt seem to fawn l;ike you do, and trades these guys away so they can develop on someone else's dime--so if history repeats itself we wont have to get back into this kind of debate.

.

[BoSox Rule]

How many minor leaguers have gfone through the redsox system since nomar and not been brought up--a lot. Coincidentally, Hanley is the only great one.

[sarasoxfan]

coincidentally, I hope you're right but until I see something tangible in AAA I think it's too early to be tossing around words like great and comparisons to allstar like tejada, and way way to early to be dreaming up new positions for the guy...let's see something in pawtucket and then <trade him> oops, I mean I then we;ll see.


Luckily the club has proven the willingingness to over pay some veterens rather than investing in youth with time and money...

I believe your friend zenny was against signing varitek in the hopes of seeing shoppach brought along. (Oh, I wont mention edgar) Indeed, management is willing to pay a lot to avoid the risk of youth.

thus, I woiuld say the chances are very good this club will re-sign damon...one of the best leaderoff hitters in baseball is still the directionI would rpefere to see us to go in--over a prospect--who to this point hasnt played above AA

[Zenny]

wow he's 20---"all of that is behind him".um, 18 and 19 indeed are behind him..but please.how do you know??? again one of your seemingly impressive and exrtaordinarily definitive remarks about something you couldnt possibly have any knowledge of-now that I see it yet again--that's what bugs me---nothing personal mind you...just snotty remarks with this plugged in holier than thou attitude--Does he call you before he does something stupid. Hi Zenny--"yeah it's Hanley--wow, I have matured in a year..yo..yo..yo...did you see babeball america..yeah, wow. dude..yeah take care and thnaks for your support"..
That was an interesting little conversation you put together there, but I'd trust Jim Callis and John Sickels, who have spoken with both Hanley himself and the Sox front office and both parties agree that all maturity issues are gone. Check out Sickels' website (www.minorleagueball.com) and look it up or check out the chat Callis did on BA. I think you can tell by now that I don't make things up, but rather quote what others say.



We haven't had a prospect the caliber of Hanley since Nomar.

[quote]uncanny how similar they are-except for one is now an all-star and one is 20...-I still think it's a strech..kind of like the way you misquote me.
We're comparing them at points in their respective careers and I fail to see where I misquoted you. So you don't have a cow, I'll quote every word you say directly.


I didnt say sucked in the minors...and although those guys talked about pressure--I said there is more patience on other clubs to let these guys mature, and not so in boston.
There certainly is more patience elsewhere, which is why I've said on a dozen occasions that, "If Hanley's ready, he'll start".


How many minor leaguers have gfone through the redsox system since nomar and not been brought up--a lot.
How many have been as good as Hanley since Nomar? None.


Management luckiy doesnt seem to fawn l;ike you do, and trades these guys away so they can develop on someone else's dime--so if history repeats itself we wont have to get back into this kind of debate.
I'm not fawning. As a matter of fact, I think BA's ranking of Hanley is a bit high at 10 (I was thinking more 20). I am merely stating that if a kid is ready to produce, why not get him into the starting lineup? I'm not saying that we have a team full of 21 year olds.

[Zenny]

coincidentally, I hope you're right but until I see something tangible in AAA I think it's too early to be tossing around words like great and comparisons to allstar like tejada, and way way to early to be dreaming up new positions for the guy...let's see something in pawtucket and then <trade him> oops, I mean I then we;ll see.
At the same point in their careers, they were very similar players. That's all we've said. No one said he's definitely going to be the best shortstop in the game (like Tejada is), but he has the potential.


Luckily the club has proven the willingingness to over pay some veterens rather than investing in youth with time and money...
Why overpay for someone on the wrong side of 30? I still think the Varitek contract, while good in the short term, is going to become an albatross by 2008.


I believe your friend zenny was against signing varitek in the hopes of seeing shoppach brought along. (Oh, I wont mention edgar) Indeed, management is willing to pay a lot to avoid the risk of youth.
I was hoping to see Shoppach brought along. Even so, Shoppach is not as good as Hanley is. Oh, and what is the risk of youth? Getting the same production for a fraction of the price.


thus, I woiuld say the chances are very good this club will re-sign damon...one of the best leaderoff hitters in baseball is still the directionI would rpefere to see us to go in--over a prospect--who to this point hasnt played above AA
This is also why I've said in this thread, "If Damon hits like 2004, they're going to bring him back." If he reverts to his pre-2004 career average, he's not worth the money he's asking for and likely won't be brought back.

You know, you bring up a lot of hypotheticals with no real evidence behind them. You talk about all these imaginary players that never made it in Boston because of the pressure and lack of patience. You talk about all these amazing stud prospects we've had in the system that have been traded away. The fact of the matter is that the system has been stocked with bench players and mop-up bullpen guys for a lot of years. The system is finally coming around and Hanley can be the first real manifestation of that. Remember the $100 million dollar player development machine that Theo was talking about when he was first handed the reigns? You probably don't, but I digress. It wasn't for nothing. This team is committed to restocking the farm to develop younger players, some to help the team directly, others as trade fodder. I'm all for trading prospects if you can get something you need in return, but when a guy with the potential to be a superstar comes around, you don't waste it on bullpen help or a short-term centerfielder.

Your ignorance isn't fully allowing your opinion to come out, which can be a very valid one if there was more evidence to back it up. Until I see you some up with something tangible, you really have little basis.

[sarasoxfan]

more of the same out of you...tiring....you'll go to your grave without ever amditting that you were remotely wrong about anything..and call anyone ignornant who doesnt agree with you.

If I had a dollar for every time some smug little unathletic dweeb said there's the next mickey mantle I'd be rich.

So here's the to the next nomar or tejada who ever else you want to compare a kid with AA numbers too..

Funny thing is I hope for once you're actually right..

[Zenny]

more of the same out of you...tiring....you'll go to your grave without ever amditting that you were remotely wrong about anything..and call anyone ignornant who doesnt agree with you.
More of the same what? What am I wrong about? The situation is far from resolved yet for either of us to be correct. I'm also not saying that people who disagree with me are ignorant, I'm say you're ignorant because you having nothing to back up what you say. I enjoy a good challenge from someone with facts, data, stories, etc., but it's funny how I never seem to get that from you.


If I had a dollar for every time some smug little unathletic dweeb said there's the next mickey mantle I'd be rich.
You don't know me at all, but hey, whatever.


So here's the to the next nomar or tejada who ever else you want to compare a kid with AA numbers too..
Funny how I've used the words "potential" and "could be capable of" as definitive words in your view. What language do you speak?


Funny thing is I hope for once you're actually right..
Good.

[BoSox Rule]

Someone actually lets him use a computer....I'm in shock...

[sarasoxfan]

oh that was a good one..haha

zenny that was a good, unemotional, funny, and damn good post.

I admit it..you got me good.

bosoxdrool...yours well, pretty typical. does zenny wipe you or do you do that alone-yet??

[BoSox Rule]

You're like I'm not a super mod <_< (I got robbed it, yeah it hurts.)

[ahhchon]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000VCZ5W.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

here you go ladies.. :D

man i love doing that.

john

[mosox]

Sheets isn't a free agent after this season. He's under contract through '06 and he and the Brewers are nearing a multi-year deal similar to what Santana got. I think they'll finalize it after this season, in which he dominates yet again.


Sheets IS in the last year of his contract. His agent just arrived in Brewers camp this weekend looking for a 4 year deal at 10 mill per yr. Plus can Sheets really want to stay with four more years of winning 11 or 12 games a season?

[Zenny]

Sheets IS in the last year of his contract. His agent just arrived in Brewers camp this weekend looking for a 4 year deal at 10 mill per yr. Plus can Sheets really want to stay with four more years of winning 11 or 12 games a season?
He's asking for a similar contract to Santana, who wasn't a free agent after this year either, he was in the same class as Sheets ('06) or one after ('07), I can't remember which. Look at his service time. It only adds up to 4 full seasons so far. This will be his 5th, next will be his 6th.

[yeszir]

The article on Sheets in one of the recent issues in ESPN has made me really pessimistic about signing him next year. The Brewers plan to build around him, and supposedly, he plans on staying.

[CrespoBlows]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000VCZ5W.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

here you go ladies.. :D

man i love doing that.

john


That was fucking hillarous

[Zenny]

The article on Sheets in one of the recent issues in ESPN has made me really pessimistic about signing him next year. The Brewers plan to build around him, and supposedly, he plans on staying.
They have a lot of stud talent on the way up and they're probably going to compete in three or four years. Yes, that's still a long time away, but they'll be interesting to watch. I look at them like the '02 Indians. They stockpiled young talent and it began to manifest itself at the end of last season. Same could be said for the BrewCrew in 2-3 years.

[CrespoBlows]

They have a lot of stud talent on the way up and they're probably going to compete in three or four years. Yes, that's still a long time away, but they'll be interesting to watch. I look at them like the '02 Indians. They stockpiled young talent and it began to manifest itself at the end of last season. Same could be said for the BrewCrew in 2-3 years.

Call me crazy, but the Brewers might have a shot this year. (Not winning it all, competing)
They got an improved offense behind Carlos Lee, a solid rotation with Sheets leading it, and a potential stud closer in Mike Adams. I see them being the '04 Indians, they'll compete but fade down the end.

BTW, did you realize the Crew were over .500 before the all star break? How about that?

[RedSoxRooter]

Crazy!


(sorry, I'm smellin' that thousand posts... ;) )

[ahhchon]

That was fucking hillarous

yeah, i know, it never gets old to me. i use it one way or another on every forum i post in. always people bitching.

i can't wait for fantasy to start. drafting is the best part. my league is going to suck. it's head to head.. probably the dumbest thing ever..

john

[Zenny]

Call me crazy, but the Brewers might have a shot this year. (Not winning it all, competing)
They got an improved offense behind Carlos Lee, a solid rotation with Sheets leading it, and a potential stud closer in Mike Adams. I see them being the '04 Indians, they'll compete but fade down the end.
Aside from Sheets, their rotation is just really bad. Yes, I know all about Doug Davis and what he accomplished last season; I just don't see him repeating that performance based on prior track record and last year's peripherals. Aside from that, they're going to be trotting out guys like Victor Santos, Wes Obermueller and more garbage like that. Jorge de la Rosa (former Sox prospect and hard-throwing lefty) and Jose Capellan (former Braves prospect and hard-throwing righty) aren't ready yet. They need refined control and improved offspeed pitches. I'm not sold on Ben Hendrickson or Chris Capuano as ever being effective (for different reasons) and Manny Parra is still a couple years away from producing while Mark Rogers needs a solid 4-5.

Their offense will be servicable enough, with Lee as a huge improvement over Podsednik. If Prince Fielder keeps hitting like he's hitting this spring, Lyle Overbay (who I wouldn't mind seeing as Millar's replacement, should it come to that) will be gone sooner rather than later. Junior Spivey won't be blocking Rickie Weeks for long either. J.J. Hardy is one hell of a defensive shortstop and the bat may come as well. He reminds me of Khalil Greene, maybe a little better.

I think their biggest glaring hole is the bullpen. Yes, Mike Adams could prove to be a nice closer due to that good fastball/slider combo, but they really have no set-up crew. Jeff Bennett, Matt Wise, Derrick Turnbow, Ricky Bottalico... they're all just bad. Just plain awful.

With the pitching staff they have, I don't see them finishing over .500. They may be close and they're going to be a team that no one wants to face with Big Ben going every 5 days. The biggest difference between the '04 Indians and the '05 Brewers is that the Indians best young talent was on the field starting in the form of Victor Martinez, Travis Hafner, C.C. Sabathia, Jake Westbrook, Cliff Lee, etc. The Brewers best young talent (Weeks, Fielder, Capellan, Jorge DLR, Brad Nelson, the list goes on and on) still need a few more years, duration of time depending on player.

[CrespoBlows]

Aside from Sheets, their rotation is just really bad. Yes, I know all about Doug Davis and what he accomplished last season; I just don't see him repeating that performance based on prior track record and last year's peripherals. Aside from that, they're going to be trotting out guys like Victor Santos, Wes Obermueller and more garbage like that. Jorge de la Rosa (former Sox prospect and hard-throwing lefty) and Jose Capellan (former Braves prospect and hard-throwing righty) aren't ready yet. They need refined control and improved offspeed pitches. I'm not sold on Ben Hendrickson or Chris Capuano as ever being effective (for different reasons) and Manny Parra is still a couple years away from producing while Mark Rogers needs a solid 4-5.

Their offense will be servicable enough, with Lee as a huge improvement over Podsednik. If Prince Fielder keeps hitting like he's hitting this spring, Lyle Overbay (who I wouldn't mind seeing as Millar's replacement, should it come to that) will be gone sooner rather than later. Junior Spivey won't be blocking Rickie Weeks for long either. J.J. Hardy is one hell of a defensive shortstop and the bat may come as well. He reminds me of Khalil Greene, maybe a little better.

I think their biggest glaring hole is the bullpen. Yes, Mike Adams could prove to be a nice closer due to that good fastball/slider combo, but they really have no set-up crew. Jeff Bennett, Matt Wise, Derrick Turnbow, Ricky Bottalico... they're all just bad. Just plain awful.

With the pitching staff they have, I don't see them finishing over .500. They may be close and they're going to be a team that no one wants to face with Big Ben going every 5 days. The biggest difference between the '04 Indians and the '05 Brewers is that the Indians best young talent was on the field starting in the form of Victor Martinez, Travis Hafner, C.C. Sabathia, Jake Westbrook, Cliff Lee, etc. The Brewers best young talent (Weeks, Fielder, Capellan, Jorge DLR, Brad Nelson, the list goes on and on) still need a few more years, duration of time depending on player.

Victor Santos was also a nice surprise last year (in the first half at least), but Ben Hendrickson could surprise people, after all he did go 11-2 with a 2.22 ERA last year in triple A. But after Sheets, Davis and Hendrickson (who can't be counted on for that much) I agree with you they have nothing. Justin Lehr might help, but they really have a piss poor bullpen. But never count out Dealin Doug, he did get Kolb, Davis, and Podsidnek from nowhere.

[Zenny]

My deal with Hendrickson is that he's too hittable. His K rate in AAA last season was 6.70 and from a right-hander, that's not acceptable. So, subtract a lot of points for a major league translation and he's not going to fool anyone. His control is very good and I think he'll be an effective #4 at his peak, but nothing more than that. His AAA ERA was so good purely because of how advanced he was versus that playing field.

[sarasoxfan]

everyone's hero got optioned to portland Double AA, to play shortstop

what happend to pawtucket?.

[CrespoBlows]

Um, because he has more time to get better now. If we didn't sign Renteria he'd be in Pawtucket.

[sarasoxfan]

Oh I thought he was going to take over center next year for Damon--because he's already all set for the majors.
But now he need more seasoning in AA.

Could it be, just let's pretend to be realistic for a second..
That some of us might be getting ahead of ourselves, and that Theo (bless his little heart) is willing to give this immature kid some time to grow up and get some experience. before coming up to the majors.
Luckily we have edgar so this conversation can wait for 4 years.

[BoSox Rule]

Edgar isn't that good. We shouldn't consider ourselves lucky to have a $40 million dollar SS, who had a .728 OPS last year, can't hit right handed pitching, and is blocking the 10th best prospect in the majors.

[CrespoBlows]

Oh I thought he was going to take over center next year for Damon--because he's already all set for the majors.
But now he need more seasoning in AA.

Could it be, just let's pretend to be realistic for a second..
That some of us might be getting ahead of ourselves, and that Theo (bless his little heart) is willing to give this immature kid some time to grow up and get some experience. before coming up to the majors.
Luckily we have edgar so this conversation can wait for 4 years.

Hanley hit .389, in spring trainning, and turned a triple play. I guarentee you he'll rip up double and triple A pitching, and he'll be ready for '06.

[sarasoxfan]

I think you mean 2007.

[DOrtiz4prez]

2005- Double A, maybe a little triple A towards end
2006- Triple A, only that, no MLB
2007- MLB, Bosox Bound

[BoSox Rule]

He could make the Opening Day roster next year.

[element1151]

I doubt it.

[ProudIdiot24]

There was a story on Hanley Ramirez in this week's Sporting News. The Sox would be willing to try him at a different position because we have Renteria for the next four years. At 6'3" and 195lbs he might have the physical tools to take over for Damon eventually. Any thoughts?
Actually after this wonderful of a postseason I dont think the BoSOx are gonna take Johnny out especially to a small name like Hanley RAmirez the SOx also know the fans wouldnt like it either.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Damon has a shitty postseason. He was the main reason we were down 0-3 in the LCS, but the only time he did anything was in game 7 of the LCS and game four of the world series, plus his arm sucks. god, does it suck.

[ahhchon]

Actually after this wonderful of a postseason I dont think the BoSOx are gonna take Johnny out especially to a small name like Hanley RAmirez the SOx also know the fans wouldnt like it either.

do you know anything about damon other than the fact that he's a self proclaimed idiot?

as much as we all like damon we understand that his asking price could be too high for the sox, especially if his production decreases (in which we know it will continue due to increasing age). damon is a fan favorite but if his asking price is too high he will be let go. hanley ramirez might be a small name right now (to some "fans") but if all goes well it'll be a household name years to come.

john

[RedSox4538]

Deleted for inappropriate material, plus the fact I don't think anyone wants to see that.

This is y'all when you see Hanley

[RedSox4538]

This is Zenny bracing for Hanley's blow

No, this is you getting banned

[yeszir]

One less annoying p.o.s we have to worry about.

[RedSoxFox7]

So then, *if* Damon can produce like 2004, what the hell do you do with Hanley?? Personally, I'd love for him to be at second or third. Actually, second because I hate bellhose. But that's just me. Mueller's days are numbered, but I don't see Hanley having any power against a third baseman we could probably get in a trade.

I agree 100% (especially about Bellhorn), but there's a good chance we wouldn't even need to trade for a third baseman, with Youk waiting in the wings.

[Manny24]

To tell you the truth id be very suprised if hanley ever played in the big leagues for the sox. he is just to big fo trade bait

[sarasoxfan]

okay, i was wrong...he'll be ready like, um,now.


Monday, April 18, 2005

How hot are they? A perfect 10


By JOHN NALBONE, Special to Portland Press Herald
TRENTON, N.J. — Go ahead and give them the Eastern League championship trophy right now. Seriously.

Have someone from the league office, conveniently located in Portland, make the mile walk to Hadlock Field and put the hardware in the Sea Dogs' trophy case. Unless this team is inexplicably dismantled, there does not appear to be a worthy opponent in the league.

Shortstop Hanley Ramirez, the pride of the Boston Red Sox farm system and rated the No. 10 prospect in the minors by Baseball America, showed a paid crowd of 6,522 at Waterfront Park why he is so highly regarded.

Ramirez keyed a five-run sixth inning with a two-run triple to power the Sea Dogs to an 11-6 victory for a four-game sweep and their 10th consecutive win to begin the season.

Ramirez (8 for 18) and first baseman Jeremy West (9 for 17) hit a combined .486 in the four games and reached base in 19 of their 37 plate appearances. Ramirez drove in seven runs and scored five as Portland recorded its first four-game sweep of the Thunder (3-8) since April 2000.

"We are just having fun playing the game every day," Ramirez said. "I was on a hot team last year at (Class A) Sarasota, but nothing like this. Everybody wants the ball, everyone wants to hit the ball and everyone wants to make every play."

The Sea Dogs are off to their best start in franchise history just three years after the parent Red Sox pulled up stakes after an eight-year player development partnership with the Thunder from 1995-2002.

How dominating was Portland in this series?

Consider that the Sea Dogs were retired in order only four times after the first inning of the opener on Thursday, the night all eight of Portland's runs were scored with two outs and two strikes on the hitter.

The Sea Dogs' bullpen allowed only six runs all weekend while Thunder relievers let in 17 - half their season total.

"They are a very disciplined team that is playing really well right now," Thunder right-hander Steven White said after falling to 0-3 with an 8.02 ERA after his first three Double-A starts. "You just can't make any mistakes and expect to get away with them."

And to think Sunday was supposed to be the Thunder's best shot at knocking off the only remaining undefeated team in professional baseball, with knuckleballer Charlie Zink working for Portland. Zink (2-0) went a combined 1-10 with a 5.75 ERA last season and never even surpassed 65 mph on the radar gun Sunday.

Winless in seven of their last eight, the Thunder even hit three home runs and received a big game from left fielder Kevin Thompson, who went 4 for 5 with one of those homers.

Portland was just too good.

From bloopers to long-distance shots to broken-bat flares that barely made it into the outfield, every ball seemed to find a cozy home somewhere.

"We ran into a hot team that just could not do anything wrong," Thunder Manager Bill Masse said. "Any fly ball that could have fell in for a hit, they caught. Every ground ball that could have gone through for a hit, they caught. They hit with runners on base and made all the big pitches when they had to. It's a lot of fun to play like that.

"We took our lumps this weekend but that's OK. We'll see these guys again."

Twelve more times to be exact. By then, the Sea Dogs should be in a league of their own.

If they aren't already.

"We're just feeding off each other," Portland second baseman Dustin Pedroia said. "We're just playing the game hard and everything is going our way."

[SuperManny]

actually i dont think the FO will trade hanley anytime soon. hes going to be phenominal and the only reason they would trade him would be for a young frontline starter. Sheets and Santana just signed extensions and I dont see the Cubs trading Prior.

They should advance Hanley to AAA this year if he keeps it up. I agree he would be a great 2B next year- then let him take over at SS when Renteria's contract is up and bring up Pedroia.