Red Sox ownership

[Bellhorn04]

They've brought us 4 rings, but lately they seem to have turned into penny-pinchers who are more interested in their FSG empire and in keeping the Red Sox books balanced regardless of losing seasons. Would you like to see them sell? I'm about at the point where I wouldn't be displeased to hear some rumors about a sale. Obviously it all depends who the prospective buyers are. But it really seems like Henry and Werner don't care that much about the Sox any more.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

They've brought us 4 rings, but lately they seem to have turned into penny-pinchers who are more interested in their FSG empire and in keeping the Red Sox books balanced regardless of losing seasons. Would you like to see them sell? I'm about at the point where I wouldn't be displeased to hear some rumors about a sale. Obviously it all depends who the prospective buyers are. But it really seems like Henry and Werner don't care that much about the Sox any more.

Yes, and I've felt that way and said so, since the Mookie trade.

It's still a shock that ownership decided not to pay market value to keep the Red Sox' best homegrown Hall of Famer in his prime the past 50 years in Boston.

It was and will always be an affront to the loyal fans of New England, a message that clearly shows owners no longer committed to fielding the best entertainment product possible.

Fiscal limits be damned -- fan favorites connect customers to the show, and make it more fun to follow good guys their kids can grow up rooting for. And those kids are the core of sustained interest in a sports team...

SELL.

[****THEYANKEES]

Yes, and I've felt that way and said so, since the Mookie trade.

It's still a shock that ownership decided not to pay market value to keep the Red Sox' best homegrown Hall of Famer in his prime the past 50 years in Boston.

It was and will always be an affront to the loyal fans of New England, a message that clearly shows owners no longer committed to fielding the best entertainment product possible.

Fiscal limits be damned -- fan favorites connect customers to the show, and make it more fun to follow good guys their kids can grow up rooting for. And those kids are the core of sustained interest in a sports team...

SELL.

you and Bell both nailed it. IMHO, Henry has quickly gone from the most beloved owner in RS history to one of the most hated. i honestly hope he sells the team. Moon says to be careful what you wish for but at this point, does it really matter?

[Randy Red Sox]

This thread is way overdue. Yes John Henry-PLEASE SELL ASAP

[Bellhorn04]

you and Bell both nailed it. IMHO, Henry has quickly gone from the most beloved owner in RS history to one of the most hated. i honestly hope he sells the team. Moon says to be careful what you wish for but at this point, does it really matter?

How much worse can it get than not paying Mookie Betts, having a revolving door of CBO's, and racking up sub-.500 seasons?

[****THEYANKEES]

How much worse can it get than not paying Mookie Betts, having a revolving door of CBO's, and racking up sub-.500 seasons?

Exactly. I’m thankful for the four WS championships but I think the FO has lost the passion for winning that we fans have.

[moonslav59]

I'm very hesitant to call for replacing this ownership group. I know it was mentioned that the next group would have to look fully committed, but there is no guarantee on that, or on their ability to hire the right people to make the right baseball hires.

Of course the unknown always seems scarier than the known, even if the known looks shaky as hell.

While there are several teams in MLB who really seem to know what they are doing, and have multiple young studs and some even have more waiting in the wings, I think the long slow rebuild of our entire system began a few years back. The low point came after the inexcusable Betts trade, and this ownership group never wanted the fanbase to know the rebuild was always going to be the top priority. No major long term FA signings- I guess Story comes closest. No trades of top prospects for over 6 years (Beeks in '18 and ARamirez in '21 were the highest ranked prospects traded and hardly any others in the top 10 or 15.) Of course, not going into total, tear-down rebuild mode hurt and slowed the process. Just one summer fire sale would have greatly improved our outlook, but it is what it is.

We've seen a half-ass approach or walking the thin line of reaching the boiling point with Sox Nation. Lame attempts at giving the perception we can or soon will be competitive again, only to b e disappointed over and over, again. Kudos to those who saw right through the sham earlier than the rest of us, but I still warn, "Be careful what you wish for."

This ownership group has cycled to ring seasons, IMO. They have never tried to win it all every season. Certainly they had higher floors than recently, and even had a stretch of 3 last place finishes in 4 years, once before. The runs under Theo and more briefly under DD were amazing, but surprisingly, we had 2 rings in the first 10 years (2003-2012) and 2 rings in the next 10 years (2013-2022.) Winning a rin, soon, look like a pipedream, but we do finally have a farm system that looks as promising as anything we've had since the Theo days- maybe about years ago. We did just extend Devers to the largest contract in Sox history, by over 40%, and perhaps with a gun to their heads. Since March 2022, we have not only extended Devers, but also paid one FA $140M and another over $100M to acquire. That could be viewed as a move in the right direction. The last big financial expenditure like that was the Bogey and Sale extensions right before the 2019 season, the same winter we let Kimbrell & Kelly go, without even trying to replace their value. That 3 year lull in spending, which coincided with no meaningful farm infusion and the loss of Betts and others really knocked this team back a ton.

We are still trying to recover, or should I say pretending to try. We have not seen anything from the Story and Yoshida signings (Yet?) That might have helped morale a bit. We have, however, seen a strikingly quick growth of a farm many felt was left totally barren by DD. While recent grads don't jump off the page like some teams seem to have, the lits is as long and meaningful as we have seen since Theo:

2021: Whitlock, Houck
2022: Duran, Crawford, Wink
2023: Bello, Casas, Wong and some lesser players like EValdez, Bernardino & Kelly

2024 and 2025 promises arrivals and or graduations by some very promising players:
Anthony
Mayer
Teel
Rafaela & Abreu (MLB experience already)
Yorke
Wikelman
Fitts, Slaten, Mata, Murphy & Walter

Longer shots like... (lower ceilings)
Monegro, Meidroth, Jordan & DHam
Dobbins, E R-C, Guerrero, Bastardo, Song & Hoppe
Gambrell, Troye, I Coffey, Benitez & Olivares

Many will fail, of course, but this is one promising area this management team has built up, despite the lack of any "wow" pitcher in the group.

The winter is not over. We'll have to pick off an amazing percentage of the remaining cream of the crop to keep any hopes alive. This looks so much like yet another punt, that I no longer support trading top for one key piece, unless it's for a top pitcher with 3 or more years of team control.

We aren't getting a new owner before the start of 2024, so I guess we can wait and see what these guys can cobble together out of the remaining rubble, but for the first time, I'm beginning to think a change is needed. I'm not fully sold on the idea, and I'm extremely leary of who the next group will be, but this really sucks.

[dgalehouse]

I have never really been a big fan of John Henry. To me, he just does not come off as a likable guy. He surely has to get credit for breaking the curse and the four championships. But in the random, crapshoot world of post season baseball , you have to get the big breaks at the big moment. Other owners came close to winning it all, but the big plays always seemed to go against them. There is nothing an owner can do about it at that point. He gets credit for creating a nice atmosphere outside of Fenway, but he did that with some pretty shabby treatment of vendors who worked there for years. He has every right to limit his spending on the team, but then he will raise ticket and concession prices at the same time. A very bad look for the average fan. All in all, it certainly was great to finally beat the Yankees and the National League champs and break the long curse. But I just don't much care for John Henry. It wouldn't bother me a bit if he sold.

[notin]

How much worse can it get than not paying Mookie Betts, having a revolving door of CBO's, and racking up sub-.500 seasons?

Do you remember Cal Pohlad?

[Bellhorn04]

Do you remember Cal Pohlad?

I know the name and know he was brutal.

I'd say the law of averages is against the next Boston owner being as bad as Pohlad, but who knows.

[jad]

Yes, and I've felt that way and said so, since the Mookie trade.

It's still a shock that ownership decided not to pay market value to keep the Red Sox' best homegrown Hall of Famer in his prime the past 50 years in Boston.

It was and will always be an affront to the loyal fans of New England, a message that clearly shows owners no longer committed to fielding the best entertainment product possible.

Fiscal limits be damned -- fan favorites connect customers to the show, and make it more fun to follow good guys their kids can grow up rooting for. And those kids are the core of sustained interest in a sports team...

SELL.

100% agree. If you're in a business, and you find that you don't give a cr*p about your employees, customers, or clients, then no matter how money you make, it's time to go into another line of work.

[Old Red]

From Tyler Milliken: if Jordan Montgomery is out of your budget you don’t deserve to own a sports team. Especially the damm Boston Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

From Tyler Milliken: if Jordan Montgomery is out of your budget you don’t deserve to own a sports team. Especially the damm Boston Red Sox.

He’s out of your preferred budget, too. right?

[Bellhorn04]

I have never really been a big fan of John Henry. To me, he just does not come off as a likable guy. He surely has to get credit for breaking the curse and the four championships. But in the random, crapshoot world of post season baseball , you have to get the big breaks at the big moment. Other owners came close to winning it all, but the big plays always seemed to go against them. There is nothing an owner can do about it at that point. He gets credit for creating a nice atmosphere outside of Fenway, but he did that with some pretty shabby treatment of vendors who worked there for years. He has every right to limit his spending on the team, but then he will raise ticket and concession prices at the same time. A very bad look for the average fan. All in all, it certainly was great to finally beat the Yankees and the National League champs and break the long curse. But I just don't much care for John Henry. It wouldn't bother me a bit if he sold.

Yes, it seems more and more like the guys responsible for the team's success over the past two decades were:

Larry Lucchino
Theo Epstein
Dave Dombrowski

[moonslav59]

Yes, it seems more and more like the guys responsible for the team's success over the past two decades were:

Larry Lucchino
Theo Epstein
Dave Dombrowski

I’d say Dan Duquette had more influence than Ben & Bloom.

[Bellhorn04]

I’d say Dan Duquette had more influence than Ben & Bloom.

No question.

[Old Red]

He’s out of your preferred budget, too. right?

One estimate I saw before this FA thing all started was 5yr/$105M, and they said he would only get a 5th year, because that’s what it would take, so probably what he ends up with Yes.

[moonslav59]

One estimate I saw before this FA thing all started was 5yr/$105M, and they said he would only get a 5th year, because that’s what it would take, so probably what he ends up with Yes.

So we do t deserve a franchise under your budget.

[notin]

One estimate I saw before this FA thing all started was 5yr/$105M, and they said he would only get a 5th year, because that’s what it would take, so probably what he ends up with Yes.

That estimate is so old, it can drink legally now.

Montgomery might not get 7/$210mill, but his is definitely not settling for 5/$105mill. I’d put the minimum at 6/$150…

[notin]

So we do t deserve a franchise under your budget.

To be fair, he doesn’t own a team…

[notin]

As long as the Sox are reportedly semi-throttle, the cheaper names that might actually work out besides Giolito/Stroman/Montas


Sean Manaea
Brad Keller
Jose Urena (but only as a reliever)
Yonny Chirinos (assuming he can start)
Shintaro Fujinami (bullpen)


The only guarantee is no one will get excited…

[Bellhorn04]

As long as the Sox are reportedly semi-throttle, the cheaper names that might actually work out besides Giolito/Stroman/Montas


Sean Manaea
Brad Keller
Jose Urena (but only as a reliever)
Yonny Chirinos (assuming he can start)
Shintaro Fujinami (bullpen)


The only guarantee is no one will get excited…

Why Not Punt?

[moonslav59]

As long as the Sox are reportedly semi-throttle, the cheaper names that might actually work out besides Giolito/Stroman/Montas


Sean Manaea
Brad Keller
Jose Urena (but only as a reliever)
Yonny Chirinos (assuming he can start)
Shintaro Fujinami (bullpen)


The only guarantee is no one will get excited…

I might rather have Paxton and Merrifield on 1 year deals.

[moonslav59]

Why Not Punt?

We already are, aren’t we?

[notin]

Why Not Punt?

What exactly is the benefit? Besides saving money?

Greater chances in the draft lottery that might help the 2028 team?

[notin]

I might rather have Paxton and Merrifield on 1 year deals.

I’d definitely prefer Paxton, but you’re rounding up if you think you get him for a year…

[moonslav59]

What exactly is the benefit? Besides saving money?

Greater chances in the draft lottery that might help the 2028 team?

2028 might be the new target date for trying.

[moonslav59]

I’d definitely prefer Paxton, but you’re rounding up if you think you get him for a year…

Yes, I should have said year contract.

[notin]

Yes, I should have said year contract.

I’d amend my statement that I’d greatly prefer Manaea over the increasingly fragile Paxton. Possibly Keller, too. Assuming Bailey can harness that rather lively arm…

[notin]

Yes, I should have said year contract.

That wasn’t the part that was missing. (Hint: most likely what would be missing is Paxton in June, July and August.)

[notin]

We already are, aren’t we?

The lottery makes punting even more pointless than it was in 2021…

[Bellhorn04]

The lottery makes punting even more pointless than it was in 2021…

On that point it's pointless.

But it still saves money and boosts the bottom line just as much!

[notin]

On that point it's pointless.

But it still saves money and boosts the bottom line just as much!

Unless I’m right and there is something in those players that is better than you realize.

Manaea was lights out through August/September in bulk relief/starter roles using multiple metrics. Keller has some topflight velocity someone needs to help straighten out. Like maybe someone who fixed Gausman. Chirinos was a solid pitcher prior to TJ. Urena is someone I’ve always felt should not be starting, but he has an elite arm. Fujinami throws 100mph.

Nothing there? Not every player in MLB is going to be a call Star, but they all are among the 780 best players in the world. And any elite talent can shine in that environment…

[moonslav59]

That wasn’t the part that was missing. (Hint: most likely what would be missing is Paxton in June, July and August.)

Yes, one year contract- maybe one month of pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

Unless I’m right and there is something in those players that is better than you realize.

Manaea was lights out through August/September in bulk relief/starter roles using multiple metrics. Keller has some topflight velocity someone needs to help straighten out. Like maybe someone who fixed Gausman. Chirinos was a solid pitcher prior to TJ. Urena is someone I’ve always felt should not be starting, but he has an elite arm. Fujinami throws 100mph.

Nothing there? Not every player in MLB is going to be a call Star, but they all are among the 780 best players in the world. And any elite talent can shine in that environment…

I think it's good that someone is able to maintain their optimism here.

[notin]

Yes, one year contract- maybe one month of pitching.

Pass on Paxton. I’d prefer my list of Wretched Refuse that will show up for work…

[notin]

I think it's good that someone is able to maintain their optimism here.

That’s because so far they’ve only missed out on Sonny Gray.

Ohtani and Yamamoto struck me as pipe dreams. And very risky ones at that.

I was never high on Nola, but he clearly preferred to stay in Philly.

So… just Gray, who I was high on.

Everyone else is still out there. Unless you really like Wacha, who, if he were unsigned and on my list, would you still call it punting?

[moonslav59]

Pass on Paxton. I’d prefer my list of Wretched Refuse that will show up for work…

I’m not so sure about more playing time, but more likely, yes.

Hey, why not just throw the ML ready kids out there and get a better read on who to keep around for the big push in ‘26?

Dalbec
Gambrell
Murphy & Walter’s last look
DHam
Rafaela & Abreu
Kelly and Guerrero
Slaten and Mata
See if Crawford can start 29+ games

Punting can serve other purposes besides better draft picks and bonus pool monies.

[moonslav59]

That’s because so far they’ve only missed out on Sonny Gray.

Ohtani and Yamamoto struck me as pipe dreams. And very risky ones at that.

I was never high on Nola, but he clearly preferred to stay in Philly.

So… just Gray, who I was high on.

Everyone else is still out there. Unless you really like Wacha, who, if he were unsigned and on my list, would you still call it punting?

Gray and ERod or Gray and Wacha would have given a glimmer of hope, assuming we also make a nice upgrade at 2B.

[jad]

What exactly is the benefit? Besides saving money?

Greater chances in the draft lottery that might help the 2028 team?

You answered your own question, no? More money in ownership pockets--the sole purpose of all businesses.

[Bellhorn04]

Everyone else is still out there. Unless you really like Wacha, who, if he were unsigned and on my list, would you still call it punting?

I liked Wacha or Lugo-

as a reasonably priced supplemental piece, not as our big splash of the offseason.

[notin]

I liked Wacha or Lugo-

as a reasonably priced supplemental piece, not as our big splash of the offseason.

Wacha is more bargain basement. I’d take Manaea over Wacha.

Pass on Lugo. He’s a top tier reliever turned acceptable starter with unknown durability…

[****THEYANKEES]

2028 might be the new target date for trying.

Why not 2038? I’m sure Henry would be fine with that.

[****THEYANKEES]

I might rather have Paxton and Merrifield on 1 year deals.

Would you like to have Mondesei too? I’m sure he’d be happy to take a couple million to “rehab” again.

[Bellhorn04]

Wacha is more bargain basement. I’d take Manaea over Wacha.

There's little to choose between them.

Manaea career fWAR per 150 IP - 1.97
Wacha career fWAR per 150 IP - 1.88

Projected 2024 fWAR

Manaea 2.0
Wacha 1.6

[Bellhorn04]

According to Spotrac, the Sox were 13th in team payroll for 2023.

If they're 13th or lower again in 2024, there's nowhere for this ownership to hide. Especially after firing Bloom and the "full throttle" sound bite.

[Old Red]

According to Spotrac, the Sox were 13th in team payroll for 2023.

If they're 13th or lower again in 2024, there's nowhere for this ownership to hide. Especially after firing Bloom and the "full throttle" sound bite.

A piece of coal from Uncle Henry to all Red Sox fans for Christmas.

[Bellhorn04]

A piece of coal from Uncle Henry to all Red Sox fans for Christmas.

It's unbelievable at this point, Red, it really is.

There are some moves coming, there have to be.

[Old Red]

It's unbelievable at this point, Red, it really is.

There are some moves coming, there have to be.

Agree. I can’t believe there wouldn’t be.

[Dipre]

I don't give a rat's ass whether Henry is likeable or not. All that matters is him getting the right people and spending money. I will say, once again though, while some of the vitriol is very well deserved, that a) the offseason is still young, and b) for being a group of fans that suffered through decades of not winning anything, our entitlement is showing. Let's at least see what the offseason actually ends up producing k?

[cp176]

I don't give a rat's ass whether Henry is likeable or not. All that matters is him getting the right people and spending money. I will say, once again though, while some of the vitriol is very well deserved, that a) the offseason is still young, and b) for being a group of fans that suffered through decades of not winning anything, our entitlement is showing. Let's at least see what the offseason actually ends up producing k?

I'm one of those fans who suffered through the years but I am as disappointed as I have ever been right now. Most years, it felt anyway that there might be good reason to expect things to be better gong in to the next season. I don't feel that way now. Maybe it has to do with misleading media, the extreme total cost of going to a game to watch a second rate product, or maybe it is just my age. I really do hope that it is a little too early to tune out on next year's season.

[Dipre]

I'm one of those fans who suffered through the years but I am as disappointed as I have ever been right now. Most years, it felt anyway that there might be good reason to expect things to be better gong in to the next season. I don't feel that way now. Maybe it has to do with misleading media, the extreme total cost of going to a game to watch a second rate product, or maybe it is just my age. I really do hope that it is a little too early to tune out on next year's season.

Oh God no. Even with the crappy finishes, nothing trumps the constant "70 years, 71 years", up to "86 years" BS I had to suffer from Yankees fans. F that

[moonslav59]

I'm one of those fans who suffered through the years but I am as disappointed as I have ever been right now. Most years, it felt anyway that there might be good reason to expect things to be better gong in to the next season. I don't feel that way now. Maybe it has to do with misleading media, the extreme total cost of going to a game to watch a second rate product, or maybe it is just my age. I really do hope that it is a little too early to tune out on next year's season.

This is worse than the time we traded Lynn, Burly, Lee, Cooper and lost Fisk by not offering him a contract on time?

There were other long stretches of little to no hopes.

[mvp 78]

They've brought us 4 rings, but lately they seem to have turned into penny-pinchers who are more interested in their FSG empire and in keeping the Red Sox books balanced regardless of losing seasons. Would you like to see them sell? I'm about at the point where I wouldn't be displeased to hear some rumors about a sale. Obviously it all depends who the prospective buyers are. But it really seems like Henry and Werner don't care that much about the Sox any more.

I don't believe Henry and Werner are a unified front and see eye to eye on everything.

[mvp 78]

As long as the Sox are reportedly semi-throttle, the cheaper names that might actually work out besides Giolito/Stroman/Montas


Sean Manaea
Brad Keller
Jose Urena (but only as a reliever)
Yonny Chirinos (assuming he can start)
Shintaro Fujinami (bullpen)


The only guarantee is no one will get excited…

Those names are rotten.

[mvp 78]

The lottery makes punting even more pointless than it was in 2021…

A lottery only makes punting pointless if you had the #1 pick in the prior draft.

[moonslav59]

It’s still better to have the 5th pick than 15-20.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't believe Henry and Werner are a unified front and see eye to eye on everything.

I'm sure they don't. Kind of seems like Henry has the last word.

[mvp 78]

Unless I’m right and there is something in those players that is better than you realize.

Manaea was lights out through August/September in bulk relief/starter roles using multiple metrics. Keller has some topflight velocity someone needs to help straighten out. Like maybe someone who fixed Gausman. Chirinos was a solid pitcher prior to TJ. Urena is someone I’ve always felt should not be starting, but he has an elite arm. Fujinami throws 100mph.

Nothing there? Not every player in MLB is going to be a call Star, but they all are among the 780 best players in the world. And any elite talent can shine in that environment…
Huh? Manaea had 4.89 ERA/3.81 xFIP in 81 innings. That's not lights out numbers for a bulk relief role. That dude stinks and is not an effective starter. If he couldn't pitch with SDP's defense behind him, he shouldn't pitch at Fenway.

[mvp 78]

The sheer amount of blue on Keller's statcast page should keep notin awake at night, but I'm not worried about the Sox signing him since he's awful at generating whiffs.

8th percentile xwOBA! Yuck!

[mvp 78]

Also, Keller's fastball is in the 34th percentile. Is that topflight velo now? WTH?

[notin]

Huh? Manaea had 4.89 ERA/3.81 xFIP in 81 innings. That's not lights out numbers for a bulk relief role. That dude stinks and is not an effective starter. If he couldn't pitch with SDP's defense behind him, he shouldn't pitch at Fenway.

From July 29 until the end of the year, 2.61 ERA/3.84 FIP with .596 OPSA.

It’s easy to do worse…

[mvp 78]

Urena is one of the worst pitchers in the league. Could he get better at some point? Maybe. He hasn't had an ERA below 5 since 2018!

[moonslav59]

Huh? Manaea had 4.89 ERA/3.81 xFIP in 81 innings. That's not lights out numbers for a bulk relief role. That dude stinks and is not an effective starter. If he couldn't pitch with SDP's defense behind him, he shouldn't pitch at Fenway.

If these are the types of guys we are looking at, I’d rather we just play the kids and punt to 2025.

[mvp 78]

From July 29 until the end of the year, 2.61 ERA/3.84 FIP with .596 OPSA.

It’s easy to do worse…

Like with the Snell conversation, not lights out then just lucky?

[Bellhorn04]

From July 29 until the end of the year, 2.61 ERA/3.84 FIP with .596 OPSA.

It’s easy to do worse…

Yes, he's a Wacha-level talent.

[mvp 78]

If these are the types of guys we are looking at, I’d rather we just play the kids and punt to 2025.

Fujinami could be an interesting arm, but they've already added a Rule 5 guy and have a fairly decent pen. They need help in the rotation with Fujinami doesn't provide.

[moonslav59]

Yes, he's a Wacha-level talent.

Not even

[Dipre]

I'd take a flyer on Manaea, but as a tertiary option.

[notin]

Also, Keller's fastball is in the 34th percentile. Is that topflight velo now? WTH?

Over the last 3 years, Keller ranks 31 in fastball velocity in all of MLB per Fangraphs. (300 IP min).

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&type=10&month=0&ind=0&startdate=&enddate=&season1=2021&season=2023&sortcol=3&sortdir=default&pageitems=30&qual=300&pagenum=2

Not the highest among FA pitchers - Snell and Montas are both higher, for two. But certainly higher than I thought Keller would be…

[notin]

Fujinami could be an interesting arm, but they've already added a Rule 5 guy and have a fairly decent pen. They need help in the rotation with Fujinami doesn't provide.

It is possible our “Houck to the bullpen” fantasy is just that…

[Bellhorn04]

Not even

Career fWAR and projections both say they're very close.

[mvp 78]

Yes, he's a Wacha-level talent.

He was with Bailey last year and they didn't keep him in the rotation. We haven't heard anything about them being linked. I think that probably says a lot about Bailey's thought on Manaea's talent level.

[Bellhorn04]

It is possible our “Houck to the bullpen” fantasy is just that…

Our fantasy that the Red Sox have a competent front office is just that.

[notin]

Like with the Snell conversation, not lights out then just lucky?

There is that possibility.

But unless something chances, there are the target levels we appear to be aiming for..,

[notin]

Our fantasy that the Red Sox have a competent front office is just that.

That may be as well. But it doesn’t help the team this year…

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe Breslow told the owners he was 100% sure he could put together a good rotation on the same shoestring budget that Bloom had.

"You're hired!"

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

Maybe Breslow told the owners he was 100% sure he could put together a good rotation on the same shoestring budget that Bloom had.

"You're hired!"


Breslow in 4 years to Henry after being fired.

Henry "I thought you Yalies were supposed to be smart, why can't any of you build me a winner"
Breslow "smart enough to convince a dummy like you to hire me"

[moonslav59]

There is that possibility.

But unless something chances, there are the target levels we appear to be aiming for..,


Feel free to make suggestions that keep us from even 80 wins.

If these are the guys we are serious about, count me out from having to choose from that group.

[mvp 78]

Over the last 3 years, Keller ranks 31 in fastball velocity in all of MLB per Fangraphs. (300 IP min).

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&type=10&month=0&ind=0&startdate=&enddate=&season1=2021&season=2023&sortcol=3&sortdir=default&pageitems=30&qual=300&pagenum=2

Not the highest among FA pitchers - Snell and Montas are both higher, for two. But certainly higher than I thought Keller would be…

That's solely based on the min IP requirement you put. If you put it to 200, he falls to 55 behind elite velo guys like NICK PIVETTA. If you put it to 150, he falls to 112 behind elite JOSH WINCKOWSKI.

[notin]

He was with Bailey last year and they didn't keep him in the rotation. We haven't heard anything about them being linked. I think that probably says a lot about Bailey's thought on Manaea's talent level.

I’m not reporting rumors. Just pitchers I find statistically interesting. These deep dives are the reality right now. Assuming we even go that far…

[notin]

That's solely based on the min IP requirement you put. If you put it to 200, he falls to 55 behind elite velo guys like NICK PIVETTA. If you put it to 150, he falls to 112 behind elite JOSH WINCKOWSKI.

True. And I actually chose it without checking his IP.

He does throw fairly hard, and that will get him a job. No idea where.

And why do you think Winckowski didn’t throw hard? He brought gas from that pen plenty of times.

(Of course comparing the velocity of a SP to a reliever often benefits the reliever.)

[notin]

Feel free to make suggestions that keep us from even 80 wins.

If these are the guys we are serious about, count me out from having to choose from that group.

Hey feel free to do better without going over the Sox budget…

[mvp 78]

I’m not reporting rumors. Just pitchers I find statistically interesting. These deep dives are the reality right now. Assuming we even go that far…

I'm not saying you were reporting rumors, just that Manaea may not even be interesting to Crag.

[mvp 78]

True. And I actually chose it without checking his IP.

He does throw fairly hard, and that will get him a job. No idea where.

And why do you think Winckowski didn’t throw hard? He brought gas from that pen plenty of times.

(Of course comparing the velocity of a SP to a reliever often benefits the reliever.)

He brought "gas" but NOBODY would say he has elite velo. C'mon.....

[mvp 78]

Hey feel free to do better without going over the Sox budget…

What's the budget? We don't know!

[moonslav59]

Hey feel free to do better without going over the Sox budget…

I’ve stated my preference: concentrate on quality over quantity. Put all the winter spending budget into 3 players:

SP
SP
2B

Now, if we spend big on 2 guys and have very little left over, then maybe one of these guys might make sense.

If we get even two SPers like Stroman and Imanaga, none of the guys you listed look to crack my top 13 opening day pitchers.

[notin]

I’ve stated my preference: concentrate on quality over quantity. Put all the winter spending budget into 3 players:

SP
SP
2B

Now, if we spend big on 2 guys and have very little left over, then maybe one of these guys might make sense.

If we get even two SPers like Stroman and Imanaga, none of the guys you listed look to crack my top 13 opening day pitchers.

I’d prefer Stroman and Imanaga, too. And I’m one of the few pro-Giolito posters.

But all three is simply not reality. And two of them is a likely pipe dream, unless we are all completely misreading this front office.

So are the Sox one SP away? And is that one SP Stroman/Giolito/Imanaga?


And I’m sure if I saw your top 13 list, I’d be writing off a few names on that…

[mvp 78]

I’ve stated my preference: concentrate on quality over quantity. Put all the winter spending budget into 3 players:

SP
SP
2B

Now, if we spend big on 2 guys and have very little left over, then maybe one of these guys might make sense.

If we get even two SPers like Stroman and Imanaga, none of the guys you listed look to crack my top 13 opening day pitchers.

They need a 2B better than Valdez/Reyes. That shouldn't be hard to do.

They need SP better than Bello/Sale/Crawford/Houck/Pivetta. Some of the names throw around (tier 4 and lower), are NOT better than these guys. What's the point in adding if they aren't higher quality!?!?!?

[notin]

What's the budget? We don't know!

On any given day, it’s the Sox current payroll.

Minus 10%…

[moonslav59]

I’d prefer Stroman and Imanaga, too. And I’m one of the few pro-Giolito posters.

But all three is simply not reality. And two of them is a likely pipe dream, unless we are all completely misreading this front office.

So are the Sox one SP away? And is that one SP Stroman/Giolito/Imanaga?


And I’m sure if I saw your top 13 list, I’d be writing off a few names on that…

No. We are at least 2 very good SPers and a very good all around 2Bman away from being close.

Just 1 SP, 2Bman and a guy from your list does not get us to 80 wins, IMO.

2 from Stroman, Imanaga or Giolito plus a 2Bman might.

My list is short, at this point.

Monty
Stroman
Imanaga
Maybe Giolito or a guy like Bauer.
Trade for Kim or Polanco.

I might beE forgetting someone, but to me, falling short of even this downgraded list, is punting.

I’m not interested in how we can punt better, unless it involves improving the 2025 outlook.

[notin]

Please delete.

I deleted my reference. Of course your original is still out there…

[moonslav59]

On any given day, it’s the Sox current payroll.

Minus 10%…

If it’s not at least near the tax line, it’s a punt and a sham.

[sk7326]

The McAdam piece was terrifying - if the team is not committed to the tax line as a minimum expectation, it is harrowing.

Worst still will be if they want to pinch pennies in general. Like Tampa - we know they have a low MLB payroll, but they also have the largest pro scouting staff in the league and they put a ton of money into scouting, coaching and analytics. The Dodgers (the ONLY team that actually has more revenue firepower than Boston) spend on all of it.

If the Red Sox want to be a team not as dependent on free agency, fine - but they then need to pour resources into scouting and development.

[notin]

No. We are at least 2 very good SPers and a very good all around 2Bman away from being close.

Just 1 SP, 2Bman and a guy from your list does not get us to 80 wins, IMO.

2 from Stroman, Imanaga or Giolito plus a 2Bman might.

My list is short, at this point.

Monty
Stroman
Imanaga
Maybe Giolito or a guy like Bauer.
Trade for Kim or Polanco.

I might beE forgetting someone, but to me, falling short of even this downgraded list, is punting.
M
I’m not interested in how we can punt better, unless it involves improving the 2025 outlook.

I don’t often include Bauer, but he is an option. However, as an extremely expensive (he does come across as greedy) option with more negative baggage than Jack the Ripper, he isn’t very likely.

I also like Brandon Drury for 2b. Of course, the Angels have been close to full throttle than the Sox lately.

I would sign Fujinami, whether you like him or not. I know the BP is crowded, but there is always room for someone who throws 100mph. If nothing else, it frees up a reliever to trade. (Jansen? Martin?)

[mvp 78]

The McAdam piece was terrifying - if the team is not committed to the tax line as a minimum expectation, it is harrowing.

Worst still will be if they want to pinch pennies in general. Like Tampa - we know they have a low MLB payroll, but they also have the largest pro scouting staff in the league and they put a ton of money into scouting, coaching and analytics. The Dodgers (the ONLY team that actually has more revenue firepower than Boston) spend on all of it.

If the Red Sox want to be a team not as dependent on free agency, fine - but they then need to pour resources into scouting and development.

They aren't Tampa, they are the Rockies...

[moonslav59]

I don’t often include Bauer, but he is an option. However, as an extremely expensive (he does come across as greedy) option with more negative baggage than Jack the Ripper, he isn’t very likely.

I also like Brandon Drury for 2b. Of course, the Angels have been close to full throttle than the Sox lately.

I would sign Fujinami, whether you like him or not. I know the BP is crowded, but there is always room for someone who throws 100mph. If nothing else, it frees up a reliever to trade. (Jansen? Martin?)

I would include Drury.

[Bellhorn04]

The McAdam piece was terrifying - if the team is not committed to the tax line as a minimum expectation, it is harrowing.

Worst still will be if they want to pinch pennies in general. Like Tampa - we know they have a low MLB payroll, but they also have the largest pro scouting staff in the league and they put a ton of money into scouting, coaching and analytics. The Dodgers (the ONLY team that actually has more revenue firepower than Boston) spend on all of it.

If the Red Sox want to be a team not as dependent on free agency, fine - but they then need to pour resources into scouting and development.

For those who didn't read it, McAdam basically confirms the Sox are NOT in on Montgomery.

[moonslav59]

They need a 2B better than Valdez/Reyes. That shouldn't be hard to do.

They need SP better than Bello/Sale/Crawford/Houck/Pivetta. Some of the names throw around (tier 4 and lower), are NOT better than these guys. What's the point in adding if they aren't higher quality!?!?!?

They need significantly better.

[moonslav59]

For those who didn't read it, McAdam basically confirms the Sox are NOT in on Montgomery.

Link to article?

I can’t find it on google mexico

[Bellhorn04]

Link to article?

I can’t find it on google mexico

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/12/some-things-i-think-i-think-on-facing-facts-about-the-red-sox-and-more.html

[mvp 78]

For those who didn't read it, McAdam basically confirms the Sox are NOT in on Montgomery.

Mazz said as much early last week. Merloni agreed at the end of the week. Now McAdam wants to get in on the fun.

I had to swallow my pride to both listen to the Mazz podcast and report it to my beloved TalkSox fans.

[Bellhorn04]

They might even be thinking Stroman is too expensive.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not really buying the stuff about Cora's future being in the Sox front office, either. He's getting hung out to dry here too. I don't see how he can possibly be happy with what's going on.

[moonslav59]

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/12/some-things-i-think-i-think-on-facing-facts-about-the-red-sox-and-more.html

Thanks. Not a very cheerful outlook.

[mvp 78]

I'm not really buying the stuff about Cora's future being in the Sox front office, either. He's getting hung out to dry here too. I don't see how he can possibly be happy with what's going on.

After what managers were paid this offseason, if he's not extended, he's going to bolt for the Dodgers next offseason to manage there.

[moonslav59]

They might even be thinking Stroman is too expensive.

It sure looks possible

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe Lowe's will have a Boxing Week sale on pitchforks and torches. We need one piece of good news at least.

[moonslav59]

I'm not really buying the stuff about Cora's future being in the Sox front office, either. He's getting hung out to dry here too. I don't see how he can possibly be happy with what's going on.

It would help if they were up front with Cora, as the lies continue or not to the fans.

I’m not sure he can or will believe any promises of future big spending, once the kids start making some major impacts… assuming a few do.

It sounds like a sham.
It looks like a sham.
It smells like a sham.
It even tastes like a sham.

I’m hopeful that someday we turn it around, but right now, we are living in the sham era.

[notin]

They might even be thinking Stroman is too expensive.

Agreed. And he has a history of undervaluing himself…

[mvp 78]

Maybe Lowe's will have a Boxing Week sale on pitchforks and torches. We need one piece of good news at least.

The 2023 Red Sox Riot as sponsored by Aubuchon Hardware. They'll string you right up!

[notin]

It would help if they were up front with Cora, as the lies continue or not to the fans.

I’m not sure he can or will believe any promises of future big spending, once the kids start making some major impacts… assuming a few do.

It sounds like a sham.
It looks like a sham.
It smells like a sham.
It even tastes like a sham.

I’m hopeful that someday we turn it around, but right now, we are living in the sham era.

Not a sham. Just a Kia Sedona that we’re taking full throttle.

Also this particular Sedona has no gas in the tank…

[moonslav59]

A big NESN boycott might motivate JH, even if to sell the team.

[moonslav59]

Sham, sham, SHAM!

[mvp 78]

A big NESN boycott might motivate JH, even if to sell the team.

Another mediocre 70 something win team will start that boycott no matter what.

[Old Red]

Guys, guys, guys. Let’s see how the team looks at the end of ST, before the tar, feathers, and pitchfork are brought out. I guess I’m the only one who is not all up in arms over the Red Sox slow offseason so far. I guess that’s, because I never thought the Red Sox had a snowball’s chance in hell of landing the Big O, or the Yam Man in the first place, and I didn’t expect the Red Sox to sign any of the overhyped, over paid FA pitches, so I’m fine with that not happening either. Those of you who expected some of those things to happen, and have speculated on possible signings for a couple of months now I can understand your anger. Wishful thinking I get, but not the reality of it. I say it again to trade, trade, trade. Now if that doesn’t happen, and the Red Sox go into ST with pretty much what they have now I’ll be with you with the tar, feathers, and pitchforks. In the meantime I’m just sitting back, and watching the Dodgers build a super team, and waiting for others to overpay for what’s left of the starting pitching.

[mvp 78]

Guys, guys, guys. Let’s see how the team looks at the end of ST, before the tar, feathers, and pitchfork are brought out. I guess I’m the only one who is not all up in arms over the Red Sox slow offseason so far. I guess that’s, because I never thought the Red Sox had a snowball’s chance in hell of landing the Big O, or the Yam Man in the first place, and I didn’t expect the Red Sox to sign any of the overhyped, over paid FA pitches, so I’m fine with that not happening either. Those of you who expected some of those things to happen, and have speculated on possible signings for a couple of months now I can understand your anger. Wishful thinking I get, but not the reality of it. I say it again to trade, trade, trade. Now if that doesn’t happen, and the Red Sox go into ST with pretty much what they have now I’ll be with you with the tar, feathers, and pitchforks. In the meantime I’m just sitting back, and watching the Dodgers build a super team, and waiting for others to overpay for what’s left of the starting pitching.

Interesting... The people down at Duffys were pretty upset last I checked! You're just going to be late for the lynching.

[Bellhorn04]

Guys, guys, guys. Let’s see how the team looks at the end of ST, before the tar, feathers, and pitchfork are brought out. I guess I’m the only one who is not all up in arms over the Red Sox slow offseason so far. I guess that’s, because I never thought the Red Sox had a snowball’s chance in hell of landing the Big O, or the Yam Man in the first place, and I didn’t expect the Red Sox to sign any of the overhyped, over paid FA pitches, so I’m fine with that not happening either. Those of you who expected some of those things to happen, and have speculated on possible signings for a couple of months now I can understand your anger. Wishful thinking I get, but not the reality of it. I say it again to trade, trade, trade.

Yes, they really need to trade for some overhyped pitchers and overpay them instead. Burnes is all set to sign an extension with any team that blows him away.

[mvp 78]

Yes, they really need to trade for some overhyped pitchers and overpay them instead. Burnes is all set to sign an extension with any team that blows him away.

AKA not the Sox right now.

[notin]

Guys, guys, guys. Let’s see how the team looks at the end of ST, before the tar, feathers, and pitchfork are brought out. I guess I’m the only one who is not all up in arms over the Red Sox slow offseason so far. I guess that’s, because I never thought the Red Sox had a snowball’s chance in hell of landing the Big O, or the Yam Man in the first place, and I didn’t expect the Red Sox to sign any of the overhyped, over paid FA pitches, so I’m fine with that not happening either. Those of you who expected some of those things to happen, and have speculated on possible signings for a couple of months now I can understand your anger. Wishful thinking I get, but not the reality of it. I say it again to trade, trade, trade. Now if that doesn’t happen, and the Red Sox go into ST with pretty much what they have now I’ll be with you with the tar, feathers, and pitchforks. In the meantime I’m just sitting back, and watching the Dodgers build a super team, and waiting for others to overpay for what’s left of the starting pitching.

I’m not up in arms about it either.

I never expected Ohtani or Yamamoto. Disappointed in missing Gray. Not huge on Wacha. Don’t understand the infatuation with Lugo. ERod, ok. I would have liked that reunion.

But with Imanaga, Stroman and Giolito on the board, I’m not horrid by what’s left.

Plus the possibility of making trades still exists. The interest in Hernandez could be a precursor for dealing an OF, for example…

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Not a sham. Just a Kia Sedona that we’re taking full throttle.

Also this particular Sedona has no gas in the tank…

I told you it was a motorbike -- but before you can open the throttle, it has to be kick-started.

Problem is, Lefty Brez slipped with his right foot, flipped over the handlebars and is now on too-weak concussion protocol.

[notin]

Interesting... The people down at Duffys were pretty upset last I checked! You're just going to be late for the lynching.

But what about the gang at Flaherty’s? You know, the ones who yell at the TV that you need to use Jacques Jones to get Shohei Ohtani out, and not that right-handed Chris Martin?

And then there’s the crowd at O’Toole’s. Buncha mean mofo’s. They’ll slit your throat for merely saying “”OPS”.

And we can’t forget about the boys at Clancy’s. But dgalehouse is their ambassador…

[Old Red]

Yes, they really need to trade for some overhyped pitchers and overpay them instead. Burnes is all set to sign an extension with any team that blows him away.

I’ve said all along to trade for younger pitchers who still have control, but you guys keep bring up guys like Burnes who would be expensive to resign. You guys keep spitting into the wind thinking the Red Sox are going to outbid these big money teams. How’s that working out?

[mvp 78]

Sure, trade Duran and Wikelman or Perales for Cease. Sign Giolito and Teoscar. Maybe upgrade 2B if you can? Feels like a C offseason at the moment.

[Old Red]

When TW made the full throttle comment I don’t think the Red Sox thought the arms race would get expensive as it got for the Yam Man, and now the trickle down effect.

[Old Red]

Interesting... The people down at Duffys were pretty upset last I checked! You're just going to be late for the lynching.

I would take the pulse down at Kowloon’s.

[mvp 78]

Houck/Duran for Steele

[mvp 78]

I would take the pulse down at Kowloon’s.

Tourist trap.

[notin]

Houck/Duran for Steele

Pass if I’m the Cubs. Already have a crowded OF, including a CF prospect who has game-changing defense. And simply need team ace Justin Steele more than I need those Red Sox…

[Old Red]

Tourist trap.

An always packed tourist trap.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

When TW made the full throttle comment I don’t think the Red Sox thought the arms race would get expensive as it got for the Yam Man, and now the trickle down effect.

Or this is what full throttle looks like on a scooter.

[notin]

Sure, trade Duran and Wikelman or Perales for Cease. Sign Giolito and Teoscar. Maybe upgrade 2B if you can? Feels like a C offseason at the moment.

C is a passing grade. What’s the current mark?

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

C is a passing grade. What’s the current mark?

Red Sox: I
Talksox: W

[moonslav59]

Interesting... The people down at Duffys were pretty upset last I checked! You're just going to be late for the lynching.

A quick straw poll at tge Big Corner is needed.

[moonslav59]

An always packed tourist trap.

Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.

[Randy Red Sox]

Sure, trade Duran and Wikelman or Perales for Cease. Sign Giolito and Teoscar. Maybe upgrade 2B if you can? Feels like a C offseason at the moment.

You are actually giving the Red Sox a C for their offseason to date??

[Randy Red Sox]

Ownership save $$ on the trade for the Juicer rather than resign Duvall who actually fit in in 2023

[sk7326]

It would help if they were up front with Cora, as the lies continue or not to the fans.

I’m not sure he can or will believe any promises of future big spending, once the kids start making some major impacts… assuming a few do.

It sounds like a sham.
It looks like a sham.
It smells like a sham.
It even tastes like a sham.

I’m hopeful that someday we turn it around, but right now, we are living in the sham era.

I am actually kind of okay with turning over a lot of it to the kids - a lot of them are promising.

But - even then, we know the going rate for these things now. And if we want to keep the Anthony-Mayer-Abreu core together (if that is the core), you're going to have to pay a sticker price eventually or you just end up trading every good 28 year old player. The thing with being the Boston Bleeping Red Sox is that you should be able to make Mookie Betts type of decisions from a position of strength.

[moonslav59]

I am actually kind of okay with turning over a lot of it to the kids - a lot of them are promising.

But - even then, we know the going rate for these things now. And if we want to keep the Anthony-Mayer-Abreu core together (if that is the core), you're going to have to pay a sticker price eventually or you just end up trading every good 28 year old player. The thing with being the Boston Bleeping Red Sox is that you should be able to make Mookie Betts type of decisions from a position of strength.

That’s a long ways away, but yes, hopefully we learned something.

Maybe it will work out whereby they don’t all reach their last year of control the same year.

The long term future is about the only thing I’m really excited about, now. I’m sure I’ll start coming around as we near opening day. We should have some nice story lines in 2024.

[mvp 78]

C is a passing grade. What’s the current mark?

Incomplete?

[Bellhorn04]

I think it's time for LeBron to speak up. He owns 1% of FSG, so his stake in the Red Sox is about $50 mill.

You care about winning, don't you, LeBron? A few choice words about the Sox dubious direction might get someone's attention...

[moonslav59]

I think it's time for LeBron to speak up. He owns 1% of FSG, so his stake in the Red Sox is about $50 mill.

You care about winning, don't you, LeBron? A few choice words about the Sox dubious direction might get someone's attention...

It can’t hurt, but it seems like Werner wants to spend more, and that didn’t help.

[Bellhorn04]

It can’t hurt, but it seems like Werner wants to spend more, and that didn’t help.

Because Henry wants to spend even less. He's doubling down!

[illinoisredsox]

You are actually giving the Red Sox a C for their offseason to date??

Grade inflation

[moonslav59]

Because Henry wants to spend even less. He's doubling down!

And he’s awfully quiet

[Bellhorn04]

C is a passing grade. What’s the current mark?

P for Punt.

[moonslav59]

P for Punt.

I’ll be calling for a full fire sale of one year players, if we end up with less than this:

Imanaga or Stroman
Giolito or Paxton
Drury or Polanco via trade

Since the odds are very low we do this much or more, it looks like a P, to me.

[mvp 78]

A fire sale, before games have been played? Before Spring Training has started? Before the roster has been finalized?

What has this world come to?!?!? :(

[Bellhorn04]

A fire sale, before games have been played? Before Spring Training has started? Before the roster has been finalized?

What has this world come to?!?!? :(

IMHO this Sox front office has earned it.

[****THEYANKEES]

P for Punt.

S for shitty.

[notin]

I’ll be calling for a full fire sale of one year players, if we end up with less than this:

Imanaga or Stroman
Giolito or Paxton
Drury or Polanco via trade

Since the odds are very low we do this much or more, it looks like a P, to me.

What if they win 50 of their first 80? Still fire sale?

[mvp 78]

You know they care about public perception since they still have a picture of Xander up on FSG's website!

https://fenwaysportsgroup.com/who-we-are/

[jad]

What if they win 50 of their first 80? Still fire sale?

Good question. Equally good questions: what if they win all of them? What if RS pitchers pitch 80 shutouts? What if McGuire has 69 home runs by then? What if they trade a prospect for Mookie? What if Ted comes back from the cryo-sphere and hits .411? We really should consider these questions in detail before making any judgments on the team.

[moonslav59]

What if they win 50 of their first 80? Still fire sale?

I’m saying fire sale now, so hell yes! Sell and then win 50 of 80!

[a700hitter]

Tourist trap.
I like Kowloons

[a700hitter]

Houck/Duran for SteeleThat would be a steal.

[moonslav59]

That would be a steal.

I’d throw in Yorke.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm really starting to wonder if being part of FSG is hurting the Red Sox.

If there's any "robbing Peter to pay Paul" going on, the Red Sox and their fans sure look like they're playing the role of Peter.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

I'm really starting to wonder if being part of FSG is hurting the Red Sox.

If there's any "robbing Peter to pay Paul" going on, the Red Sox and their fans sure look like they're playing Peter.

I'm at a point now where I certainly believe that Henry and Co. do not care as much about the Sox as they once did. I don't think they're completely apathetic, but rather bottom line is of the upmost importance than winning (at least until the bottom line starts to take a big hit)

What I continue to disbelieve, and seems to defy every law of business and economics, is that they're robbing peter to pay paul.

They have money, they have plenty of equity and the ability to leverage debt to take on any venture they want. They don't need, nor are they funneling money out of Fenways and using to invest elswhere. That's just a narrative that isn't true.

That doesn't mean they're not 100% responsible for their product on the field and deserve all the relevant criticism in the world.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

I'm really starting to wonder if being part of FSG is hurting the Red Sox.

If there's any "robbing Peter to pay Paul" going on, the Red Sox and their fans sure look like they're playing the role of Peter.

The Sox better make some significant moves soon, or even peter-hards are going to peter out.

[Bellhorn04]

What I continue to disbelieve, and seems to defy every law of business and economics, is that they're robbing peter to pay paul.

They have money, they have plenty of equity and the ability to leverage debt to take on any venture they want. They don't need, nor are they funneling money out of Fenways and using to invest elswhere. That's just a narrative that isn't true.

You don't think it's even a possibility?

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

I’d throw in Yorke.

I don't think DUran is going to hold a lot of weight in Chicago. They already have Ian Happ and Suzuki out in the outfield and the top of their farm is loaded with outfiedlers. Although Miguel Bleis might be more intriguing to them. He is further away, so the need could be there by the time he is ready or used in a trade elsewhere and he offers more upside than a guy like Duran. Which is ultimately what you need to offer up for a premium player.

BTV (the end all of all trade arguments) does accept this trade.

Nick Yorke
Miguel Bleis
Tanner Houck

For Yan Gomes and Justin Steele.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

You don't think it's even a possibility?

I would say it's more likely that they are than it is that an asteroid hits eart today. And to be fair, both are not impossible.

I just don't see healthy corporations operating like that. I don't think it's a lack of committment as much as it's incompetence.

John Henry has a history of being an industry leader, being first, and gaining a competitive edge. He tried to be the smartest guy in the room again and this time he fell flat on his face. Thats how I see it.

[notin]

I don't think DUran is going to hold a lot of weight in Chicago. They already have Ian Happ and Suzuki out in the outfield and the top of their farm is loaded with outfiedlers. Although Miguel Bleis might be more intriguing to them. He is further away, so the need could be there by the time he is ready or used in a trade elsewhere and he offers more upside than a guy like Duran. Which is ultimately what you need to offer up for a premium player.

BTV (the end all of all trade arguments) does accept this trade.

Nick Yorke
Miguel Bleis
Tanner Houck

For Yan Gomes and Justin Steele.

The Cubs were closer to the postseason than Boston and are not going to trade Steele in order to step backwards. Despite their lack of activity this off-season (they remain the only team to add no players to their 40 man this off-season), they’re not likely going into sell mode.

Teams with pitching surpluses that might be willing to deal include Miami and Houston…

[Bellhorn04]

I would say it's more likely that they are than it is that an asteroid hits eart today. And to be fair, both are not impossible.

I just don't see healthy corporations operating like that. I don't think it's a lack of committment as much as it's incompetence.

John Henry has a history of being an industry leader, being first, and gaining a competitive edge. He tried to be the smartest guy in the room again and this time he fell flat on his face. Thats how I see it.

Sports teams are kind of unique businesses, though. Some of the losing teams make a pile more money than some of the winning teams.

Have the last two 78 win seasons hurt the Sox bottom line or market value? Only the accountants know for sure.

[moonslav59]

I think they will spend large, again, some day, but who knows?

They may be thinking they will wait until the 3 top prospects are up and adjusted, and while Casas, Bello and others still have 2-3 years left. Maybe that is “the window” they identifies as the all in period for spending.

They may never spend large, again, for all I know.

Whodathunk it was a 7-8 year rebuild from the start?

Maybe all those HS draft picks was a sign.

[sk7326]

I think they will spend large, again, some day, but who knows?

They may be thinking they will wait until the 3 top prospects are up and adjusted, and while Casas, Bello and others still have 2-3 years left. Maybe that is “the window” they identifies as the all in period for spending.

They may never spend large, again, for all I know.

Whodathunk it was a 7-8 year rebuild from the start?

Maybe all those HS draft picks was a sign.

A 7 or 8 year rebuild is crazy bananapants for a franchise like the Sox.

[notin]

I think they will spend large, again, some day, but who knows?

They may be thinking they will wait until the 3 top prospects are up and adjusted, and while Casas, Bello and others still have 2-3 years left. Maybe that is “the window” they identifies as the all in period for spending.

They may never spend large, again, for all I know.

Whodathunk it was a 7-8 year rebuild from the start?

Maybe all those HS draft picks was a sign.

Hopefully the Red Sox (or any team ever) doesn’t look at their AA roster and think “when these guys reach MLB…”. Hopefully the Sox have learned that it could be 7-8 years before any of them becomes a worthwhile core player.

And hopefully they realize even then, it’s unlikely anyone in the Sox farm system can hit like Devers and Casas. Why waste what they have already?

[Bellhorn04]

A 7 or 8 year rebuild is crazy bananapants for a franchise like the Sox.

That's a nice way of saying "gross incompetence". :cool:

[moonslav59]

Sports teams are kind of unique businesses, though. Some of the losing teams make a pile more money than some of the winning teams.

Have the last two 78 win seasons hurt the Sox bottom line or market value? Only the accountants know for sure.

It does seem like there are multiple ways to make a ton of money in baseball. All the side businesses like cable, concessions and memorabilia add up.

Maybe JH & Co. Have chosen a different model and will never come close to matching the top spenders, ever again. Maybe they splurge for a year or two, then duck back under by year 3.

It’s hard to get a read on even the short term plan, so 2-5 years out is impossible.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

Sports teams are kind of unique businesses, though. Some of the losing teams make a pile more money than some of the winning teams.

Have the last two 78 win seasons hurt the Sox bottom line or market value? Only the accountants know for sure.

I don't think it's hard to predict that at all. It's like predicting the climate. Sure, weather varies day to day but you know darn well it will be cold in the winter and hot in the summer. It's easy to rack up a few losing seasons and live off your past success, but eventually that will erode. I think this is the year they start to feel it if this team is a loser. I still think they make money, but I would be surprised if revenues didn't go down during another losing season.

It's also generational. Kids grow up rooting for teams and then spend a lifetime as adults watching them, attending games, and buying jerseys. no one likes watching losers, a continuation of losing really hurts their future brand.

Shame on Henry if he doesn't know this.

[Hitch]

I'm really starting to wonder if being part of FSG is hurting the Red Sox.

If there's any "robbing Peter to pay Paul" going on, the Red Sox and their fans sure look like they're playing the role of Peter.

As a lifelong Liverpool fan, I can tell you, fans here have the exact same complaints about FSG, but are less in volume due to us being in with a shout of winning a lots of titles recently. That said, the club has outperformed its spending limits for years, mainly down the world class management structure they have in place.

So they aren't taking from that part of the pot for sure. I don't think it's a financial issue at all. I think it's more that their attention is now drawn in a dozen different directions, with the investment portfolio only increasing.

As an aside, when they took over at Liverpool, they conceded they knew nothing about football (soccer) and so put in experts that did. In baseball, I think they see themselves as the experts and so need no such favour from elsewhere.

[Old Red]

That's a nice way of saying "gross incompetence". :cool:

Gross incompetence, or preference?

[Old Red]

From Milliken on Cotillo agents dealing With the Red Sox this offseason want to know why the Red Sox are acting like a small market club.

[jad]

Gross incompetence, or preference?

This looks as if it is going exactly as ownership wants. (well, they'd like maybe 20 more wins to appear by magic each season, but if not, who cares, really?)

[vjcsmoke]

From Milliken on Cotillo agents dealing With the Red Sox this offseason want to know why the Red Sox are acting like a small market club.

Well I just read an article that confirms - the Red Sox have set a small market budget to avoid the luxury tax - 225m per season.

In fact the Red Sox have outright told some free agents that they can't pursue them unless they first shed payroll.

“According to baseball sources, the front office went into last winter with a mandated budget of $225 million, which was significantly under the first CBT threshold of $233 million,” Cotillo wrote. “Boston did not come close to paying the luxury tax in 2023, when the club finished last; estimations had Boston’s payroll just a hair over that $225 million mark by the end of the year.”

Despite Red Sox chairman Tom Werner’s claim of the team going “full throttle” this offseason, Boston’s spending habits have reportedly befuddled the rest of MLB, as well as several free agents.

“I’ve talked to a lot of agents this week and I made it a point to … talk to rival executives, talk to agents to see what the Red Sox were doing,” Chris Cotillo said on his “Fenway Rundown” podcast on Friday. “A few of them were just very clear – [the Red Sox] are acting like a small market team. ‘They like my player, but they are not going to be the aggressive bidders.’”

Article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/report-red-sox-told-free-agent-they-must-shed-payroll-before-aggressively-pursuing-him/ar-AA1mhsUg

This is pretty damning stuff. And it helps explain a lot about what has happened this offseason.

Red Sox budget is set at 225m and they won't spend more until they shed more payroll. Breslow might not be able to make significant moves until next season when more contracts expire.

But dumping Verdugo for chump change and trading away Chris Sale now make sense big picture-wise.

The Red Sox going "Full Throttle" is more like the Red Sox going 55 mph in a 70 mph zone. What a joke!

[Old Red]

Well I just read an article that confirms - the Red Sox have set a small market budget to avoid the luxury tax - 225m per season.

In fact the Red Sox have outright told some free agents that they can't pursue them unless they first shed payroll.

“According to baseball sources, the front office went into last winter with a mandated budget of $225 million, which was significantly under the first CBT threshold of $233 million,” Cotillo wrote. “Boston did not come close to paying the luxury tax in 2023, when the club finished last; estimations had Boston’s payroll just a hair over that $225 million mark by the end of the year.”

Despite Red Sox chairman Tom Werner’s claim of the team going “full throttle” this offseason, Boston’s spending habits have reportedly befuddled the rest of MLB, as well as several free agents.

“I’ve talked to a lot of agents this week and I made it a point to … talk to rival executives, talk to agents to see what the Red Sox were doing,” Chris Cotillo said on his “Fenway Rundown” podcast on Friday. “A few of them were just very clear – [the Red Sox] are acting like a small market team. ‘They like my player, but they are not going to be the aggressive bidders.’”

Article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/report-red-sox-told-free-agent-they-must-shed-payroll-before-aggressively-pursuing-him/ar-AA1mhsUg

This is pretty damning stuff. And it helps explain a lot about what has happened this offseason.

Red Sox budget is set at 225m and they won't spend more until they shed more payroll. Breslow might not be able to make significant moves until next season when more contracts expire.

But dumping Verdugo for chump change and trading away Chris Sale now make sense big picture-wise.

The Red Sox going "Full Throttle" is more like the Red Sox going 55 mph in a 70 mph zone. What a joke!
Maybe someone should have asked TW what he meant by h going full throttle.

[notin]

Maybe someone should have asked TW what he meant by h going full throttle.

Maybe he meant he would fully throttle the necks of all the fans?

[Old Red]

Maybe he meant he would fully throttle the necks of s as ll the fans?

🙈🤭🤮.

[Randy Red Sox]

It does seem like there are multiple ways to make a ton of money in baseball. All the side businesses like cable, concessions and memorabilia add up.

Maybe JH & Co. Have chosen a different model and will never come close to matching the top spenders, ever again. Maybe they splurge for a year or two, then duck back under by year 3.

It’s hard to get a read on even the short term plan, so 2-5 years out is impossible.

well maybe if Henry and co actually told the fans what the actual plan was it could clarify things. Remember though Henry pulled this same shit with the Marlins before dumping them.

[Randy Red Sox]

Maybe he meant he would fully throttle the necks of all the fans?

Post of the day

[jad]

well maybe if Henry and co actually told the fans what the actual plan was it could clarify things. Remember though Henry pulled this same shit with the Marlins before dumping them.

We can hope!

[****THEYANKEES]

We can hope!

yep. maybe the next owner will be more concerned with building a championship team rather than some sports "empire".

[moonslav59]

Maybe someone should have asked TW what he meant by h going full throttle.

I am puzzled why we can’t spend more. At least spend to within 1-2 M of the tax line until it’s time to splurge.

That being said, we have often been $5-7M under , so that is not really “small market.” It’s been too 8-12 or so since Rick bottom 2020.

[FredLynn]

well maybe if Henry and co actually told the fans what the actual plan was it could clarify things. Remember though Henry pulled this same shit with the Marlins before dumping them.

I think he IS telling the fans what the plan is: tighten spending. You can build a good team on a tight budget but its a lot harder. Its easy to spend Henry's money, isn't it. Time for him to sell the team.

[moonslav59]

I think he IS telling the fans what the plan is: tighten spending. You can build a good team on a tight budget but its a lot harder. Its easy to spend Henry's money, isn't it. Time for him to sell the team.

IMO, JH will spend big again, but it might not be until 2025 or 2026.

Pure speculation on my part.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, now we know what the deal is, folks.

It's good in a way that they've been fully exposed on their real intentions.

[Old Red]

Well, now we know what the deal is, folks.

It's good in a way that they've been fully exposed on their real intentions.

Like I always say that just when you think you know the answers they change the question. TW should have been pinned down on what he exactly meant of going full throttle.

[Dipre]

Isn't it January 1st?

[Bellhorn04]

Isn't it January 1st?

Yes. We can all pop some champagne - as long as it stays under budget. :cool:

[Dipre]

My point is, I'm seeing equal parts whining and copium without a clear idea of what the end result of this roster will be.

[Bellhorn04]

My point is, I'm seeing equal parts whining and copium without a clear idea of what the end result of this roster will be.

A lot of Sox fans are upset about the Cotillo column about the payroll budget, which looks to be totally credible. It doesn't mean Breslow can't do a good job making the most of it.

But I am really really pissed at Henry and Werner.

[Old Red]

A lot of Sox fans are upset about the Cotillo column about the payroll budget, which looks to be totally credible. It doesn't mean Breslow can't do a good job making the most of it.

But I am really really pissed at Henry and Werner.

I think once again misreading the room to start with like think the Yam Man would be closer to $200M than going over $300M, but if they’ve told agents they have to cut some payroll to make better offers that was bound to get out, so at this point who knows how this will all turn out.

[Bellhorn04]

It's totally consistent with the story about how Eovaldi came back to the Sox last year to see if their offer still stood and Bloom telling him that unfortunately the budget didn't have room for it any more.

It makes my blood boil. But that's just me.

[Bellhorn04]

The Boston Bean Counters:

"Under .500 is OK if we're under budget" is the new motto.

[Randy Red Sox]

My point is, I'm seeing equal parts whining and copium without a clear idea of what the end result of this roster will be.

That may be true but people said exactly what you are saying in past offseasons and we all saw the results. One can hardly blame fans for being skeptcal

[Randy Red Sox]

By the way the Gilolito deal is still not official

[Old Red]

It's totally consistent with the story about how Eovaldi came back to the Sox last year to see if their offer still stood and Bloom telling him that unfortunately the budget didn't have room for it any more.

It makes my blood boil. But that's just me.

The whole situation stinks to high heaven. I was glad when Bloom got the boot, because I always thought he was way in over his head. If the rumor was true he had a chance to get rid of Sale, and his contract, and didn’t do it he should have been fired then. Now we get Breslow. Who knows who the zRed Sox would have picked had all the candidates out there been willing, but we all know that many wasn’t willing despite what Sam said that Boston is the place where everyone would want to be. Sad, but as we found out that wasn’t the case at all, and now Bres in the man ready, or Not.unfortunately it sounds like JH has set a budget, and Bres will really have to get created to make it work, so buckle up, and enjoy what could be a long, and bumpy ride.

[Bellhorn04]

Cotillo's column makes perfect sense when you look at what the Sox have been doing so far this offseason, plus all the other scuttlebutt about people in the industry talking about the Sox acting like a small-market team.

[Bellhorn04]

By the way the Gilolito deal is still not official

That's standard though.

[Old Red]

Cotillo's column makes perfect sense when you look at what the Sox have been doing so far this offseason, plus all the other scuttlebutt about people in the industry talking about the Sox acting like a small-market team.

What do you think the Yam Man’s contingent thought when the Red Sox went to them with that incentive laden contract?

[Randy Red Sox]

That's standard though.

probably but I just brought it up cause with this FO one never knows

[Bellhorn04]

What do you think the Yam Man’s contingent thought when the Red Sox went to them with that incentive laden contract?

Probably looked at our guys like they weren't even there, would be my guess.

[Old Red]

Probably looked at our guys like they weren't even there, would be my guess.

When you come right down to it they really wasn’t. It was all for show.

[Dipre]

When you come right down to it they really wasn’t. It was all for show.

How exactly do you know this with certainty?

[Bellhorn04]

How exactly do you know this with certainty?

We don't know with certainty that it was all for show.

But it seems abundantly obvious the Red Sox were not serious players for Yamamoto in any way, shape or form.

[Bellhorn04]

Might as well put this here.

Tom Werner vows Red Sox will go “full throttle” in effort to improve team
Published: Nov. 02, 2023, 3:31 p.m.
By Sean McAdam | sean.mcadam@masslive.com

BOSTON — For much of the 20-plus year duration of the current ownership, the Red Sox spent as freely as any Major League Baseball franchise, almost always ranking in the top five in payroll, often in the top three, and occasionally, leading all teams.

That, however, was not the case in 2023. As the Red Sox finished last in the AL East for the second year in a row and third time in the last four years, the Red Sox scaled back considerably with their payroll — depending on who was doing the measuring and how — slotted somewhere between ninth and 13th. Most calculations had them outside of the Top 10, and thus, out of the top third in the industry.

Now, however with new chief baseball officer Craig Breslow officially introduced at a Fenway Park press conference Thursday, Red Sox ownership is giving the new executive its backing and a promise to spend as it did in the past.

“We know that we have to be competitive next year,” said Werner. “So we’re going to be competitive next year. We’re going to have be full-throttle in every possible way.”

Asked specifically if the Red Sox will pursue high-end starting pitchers on the free agent market, Werner responded: “Let me just say that we don’t have any built-in restrictions.”

But Werner also signaled that the Red Sox have to take the long view on spending, and not throw money at free agents without regard to long-term consequences.

“What I will say is that some years we’ve been below the CBT (competitive balance tax), some years we’ve been above the CBT,” said Werner. “It is important for us to make decisions that will not be just effective in 2024, but past 2024. So those are the decisions that will drive us. I think the inconsistency that we’ve had can be helped a lot by, as Craig said, making decisions that include going after expensive free agents but it’s just as important to develop a minor league system that produces the kind of talent that makes you consistently win.”

In recent years, with the retirement of David Ortiz, the trade of Mookie Betts and the loss of free agent Xander Bogaerts, the Red Sox have lost a significant amount of star power on their roster. With a more anonymous and interchangeable roster, some fans have decried the lack of Red Sox stars. As someone who has been successful in the entertainment field, Werner understands that appeal.

“You need great players,” said Werner. “It’s not about selling (the appeal of the team); it’s about having great players. And generally, you need players who have high WAR to be a winner. Raffy Devers is a star who will be with us a long time. But we need to complement him with other talent. One of the great players of this past postseason was (Texas outfielder Adolis) Garcia, right? What was he, designated for assignment by two different clubs?

“So I sometimes say that baseball is somewhat confounding. But obviously, when you look back, you need to have stars.

[Hitch]

I get why people are pissed at ownership and will be even more so if we're well below the first tax, but let's see where we end up. There's very little other clubs have done I would have wished we had instead. Send a boatload of prospects for 1 year of Soto? Nope. Sign Ohtani to that deal? Nope. Even the Yamamoto one is a huge risk for a guy that has bever pitched in the MLB. It's been well established his contract got out of control at the end. I could have swallowed the risk, but I'm hardly annoyed at them for not going 350m or something. That looked likely to be an only Dodgers thing after Ohtani signed, anyways.

The quotes about needing to free up more payroll are concerning, but it's coming from agents, so let's not take it as automatic gospel. Let's see where we are in a month.

[Old Red]

Might as well put this here.

Tom Werner vows Red Sox will go “full throttle” in effort to improve team
Published: Nov. 02, 2023, 3:31 p.m.
By Sean McAdam | sean.mcadam@masslive.com

BOSTON — For much of the 20-plus year duration of the current ownership, the Red Sox spent as freely as any Major League Baseball franchise, almost always ranking in the top five in payroll, often in the top three, and occasionally, leading all teams.

That, however, was not the case in 2023. As the Red Sox finished last in the AL East for the second year in a row and third time in the last four years, the Red Sox scaled back considerably with their payroll — depending on who was doing the measuring and how — slotted somewhere between ninth and 13th. Most calculations had them outside of the Top 10, and thus, out of the top third in the industry.

Now, however with new chief baseball officer Craig Breslow officially introduced at a Fenway Park press conference Thursday, Red Sox ownership is giving the new executive its backing and a promise to spend as it did in the past.

“We know that we have to be competitive next year,” said Werner. “So we’re going to be competitive next year. We’re going to have be full-throttle in every possible way.”

Asked specifically if the Red Sox will pursue high-end starting pitchers on the free agent market, Werner responded: “Let me just say that we don’t have any built-in restrictions.”

But Werner also signaled that the Red Sox have to take the long view on spending, and not throw money at free agents without regard to long-term consequences.

“What I will say is that some years we’ve been below the CBT (competitive balance tax), some years we’ve been above the CBT,” said Werner. “It is important for us to make decisions that will not be just effective in 2024, but past 2024. So those are the decisions that will drive us. I think the inconsistency that we’ve had can be helped a lot by, as Craig said, making decisions that include going after expensive free agents but it’s just as important to develop a minor league system that produces the kind of talent that makes you consistently win.”

In recent years, with the retirement of David Ortiz, the trade of Mookie Betts and the loss of free agent Xander Bogaerts, the Red Sox have lost a significant amount of star power on their roster. With a more anonymous and interchangeable roster, some fans have decried the lack of Red Sox stars. As someone who has been successful in the entertainment field, Werner understands that appeal.

“You need great players,” said Werner. “It’s not about selling (the appeal of the team); it’s about having great players. And generally, you need players who have high WAR to be a winner. Raffy Devers is a star who will be with us a long time. But we need to complement him with other talent. One of the great players of this past postseason was (Texas outfielder Adolis) Garcia, right? What was he, designated for assignment by two different clubs?

“So I sometimes say that baseball is somewhat confounding. But obviously, when you look back, you need to have stars.

The Red Sox Winter weekend is a couple of weekends away. I wonder if Tom, and JH will show up?

[Bellhorn04]

I get why people are pissed at ownership and will be even more so if we're well below the first tax, but let's see where we end up. There's very little other clubs have done I would have wished we had instead.

Sonny Gray gets no respect. I think his $75 million deal looks pretty good, and E-Rod's $80 million deal isn't bad either. These are guys who have put up multiple 3-4 WAR seasons at prices that should be well within the Sox financial means.

I suspect that when Snell and Montgomery sign we'll probably say they got overpaid, and not by us.

It's not just this one offseason that's concerning. The Giolito contract is the biggest one they've given to a starting pitcher since Eovaldi in 2019.

[Hitch]

Sonny Gray gets no respect. I think his $75 million deal looks pretty good, and E-Rod's $80 million deal isn't bad either. These are guys who have put up multiple 3-4 WAR seasons at prices that should be well within the Sox financial means.

I suspect that when Snell and Montgomery sign we'll probably say they got overpaid, and not by us.

It's not just this one offseason that's concerning. The Giolito contract is the biggest one they've given to a starting pitcher since Eovaldi in 2019.

Sonny Gray maybe. E-Rod was never coming back here for other reasons.

I don't particularly crave either Montgomerie or Snell to be honest. I very much hope our next starting pitching upgrade is through trade.

[Bellhorn04]

Sonny Gray maybe. E-Rod was never coming back here for other reasons.

I don't particularly crave either Montgomerie or Snell to be honest. I very much hope our next starting pitching upgrade is through trade.

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want Montgomery. He was one of the best pitchers in baseball last year. He seems like a Jon Lester type to me. Oh well, he's a non-issue as far as we're concerned.

What trade targets do you have in mind?

[Old Red]

I get why people are pissed at ownership and will be even more so if we're well below the first tax, but let's see where we end up. There's very little other clubs have done I would have wished we had instead. Send a boatload of prospects for 1 year of Soto? Nope. Sign Ohtani to that deal? Nope. Even the Yamamoto one is a huge risk for a guy that has bever pitched in the MLB. It's been well established his contract got out of control at the end. I could have swallowed the risk, but I'm hardly annoyed at them for not going 350m or something. That looked likely to be an only Dodgers thing after Ohtani signed, anyways.

The quotes about needing to free up more payroll are concerning, but it's coming from agents, so let's not take it as automatic gospel. Let's see where we are in a month.

We have no choice, but to wait, and see where we are in a month. I’ve been as patient as anyone not, because I think the Red Sox are on the right path back, and have confidence they can get there, but because I didn’t think they would sign any of the top high priced FA anyway. When the Red Sox showed up with that incentive laden contract offer to the Yam Man I hope it was just for show, because if it wasn’t it shows how out of touch, and incompetent they are to think that offer would get it done going against the likes of the Yankees, Mets, and Dodgers. I’m still waiting for more trades, so let’s see what Bres can come up with.🤫

[Old Red]

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want Montgomery. He was one of the best pitchers in baseball last year. He seems like a Jon Lester type to me. Oh well, he's a non-issue as far as we're concerned.

What trade targets do you have in mind?
I’ve always said Monty would make the rotation better, but I just can’t see the Red Sox going for the length, and money of the contract it would take to get him.

[Bellhorn04]

I’ve always said Monty would make the rotation better, but I just can’t see the Red Sox going for the length, and money of the contract it would take to get him.

Yeah, if they won't shell out for Gray or E-Rod, it's pretty unlikely they're going to pay Montgomery.

All we can do now is hope for a blockbuster trade, I guess.

[Hitch]

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want Montgomery. He was one of the best pitchers in baseball last year. He seems like a Jon Lester type to me. Oh well, he's a non-issue as far as we're concerned.

What trade targets do you have in mind?

I like Monty, I just think his contract is going to get stupid expensive. If we can get him at even a slight overpay, all good by me. I just don't think it's going to be a reasonable contract. If it is we should definitely be involved.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Sonny Gray gets no respect. I think his $75 million deal looks pretty good, and E-Rod's $80 million deal isn't bad either. These are guys who have put up multiple 3-4 WAR seasons at prices that should be well within the Sox financial means.

I suspect that when Snell and Montgomery sign we'll probably say they got overpaid, and not by us.

It's not just this one offseason that's concerning. The Giolito contract is the biggest one they've given to a starting pitcher since Eovaldi in 2019.

And the opt out means that if Gio has a good comeback season -- like the Red Sox expect -- then he'll be back in the free agent market next winter... and Boston will only have to pay half of his current contract.

Hmmmm...

[Old Red]

Yeah, if they won't shell out for Gray or E-Rod, it's pretty unlikely they're going to pay Montgomery.

All we can do now is hope for a blockbuster trade, I guess.

That’s what I have thought right along on the blockbuster trad option, but I’m not as confident now as I was before FA season started.

[Hitch]

We have no choice, but to wait, and see where we are in a month. I’ve been as patient as anyone not, because I think the Red Sox are on the right path back, and have confidence they can get there, but because I didn’t think they would sign any of the top high priced FA anyway. When the Red Sox showed up with that incentive laden contract offer to the Yam Man I hope it was just for show, because if it wasn’t it shows how out of touch, and incompetent they are to think that offer would get it done going against the likes of the Yankees, Mets, and Dodgers. I’m still waiting for more trades, so let’s see what Bres can come up with.��

What were the details of the incentive based contract for Yamamoto? I don't know if I missed it or if the holiday alcohol is stripping my memory but I don't know the details of that.

[Old Red]

What were the details of the incentive based contract for Yamamoto? I don't know if I missed it or if the holiday alcohol is stripping my memory but I don't know the details of that.
I don’t know the details, and I should have said the Reported incentive laden contract offer.

[Hitch]

And the opt out means that if Gio has a good comeback season -- like the Red Sox expect -- then he'll be back in the free agent market next winter... and Boston will only have to pay half of his current contract.

Hmmmm...

This is where I think everything is viewed through the annoyance of past behaviour by ownership. That was a good deal for me. We don't really know what we have with him right now, so I think a short term contract was the best bet.

Not a criticism, again, totally understand why most things are being viewed with suspicion.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

This is where I think everything is viewed through the annoyance of past behaviour by ownership. That was a good deal for me. We don't really know what we have with him right now, so I think a short term contract was the best bet.

Not a criticism, again, totally understand why most things are being viewed with suspicion.

How can I not be suspicious of the Giolito signing? He used to be good, but for the past two seasons he has not been good.

The only sure thing with him is durability: start 30 games, throw 175 innings. If he still leads the league in giving up bombs the next two years, at least the Red Sox will have fielded a team for paying customers to watch.

That may be our worst-case scenario, but for all we know about the Committee running the front office that analyzes everything, it may be their most-confident scenario.

[Dipre]

We don't know with certainty that it was all for show.

But it seems abundantly obvious the Red Sox were not serious players for Yamamoto in any way, shape or form.

Presumably.

[Dipre]

That may be true but people said exactly what you are saying in past offseasons and we all saw the results. One can hardly blame fans for being skeptcal

Which is why we can evaluate past offseasons as a whole, but not this one.

[Bellhorn04]

Presumably.

Like I said earlier, we'll get the actual details on our offer to Yamamoto...

right after we get the details on our last offer to Mookie.

[Randy Red Sox]

Which is why we can evaluate past offseasons as a whole, but not this one.

Because we have seen nothing to the contrary even this offseason to date.

[Old Red]

Like I said earlier, we'll get the actual details on our offer to Yamamoto...

right after we get the details on our last offer to Mookie.

Exactly, and that hasn’t happened yet either. Top secret classification.🤫

[Jasonbay44]

Liverpool are a serious candidate in the race to sign superstar Kylian Mbappé, per @GFFN. A deal would cost several hundreds of millions.

The Red Sox have reportedly had mandates to stay under the luxury tax while FSG invests billions into Liverpool, the Penguins, and the PGA.

Thank God!

[Bellhorn04]

Liverpool are a serious candidate in the race to sign superstar Kylian Mbappé, per @GFFN. A deal would cost several hundreds of millions.

The Red Sox have reportedly had mandates to stay under the luxury tax while FSG invests billions into Liverpool, the Penguins, and the PGA.

Thank God!

Yep, the Red Sox are now a division of a conglomerate.

[Hitch]

Liverpool are a serious candidate in the race to sign superstar Kylian Mbappé, per @GFFN. A deal would cost several hundreds of millions.

The Red Sox have reportedly had mandates to stay under the luxury tax while FSG invests billions into Liverpool, the Penguins, and the PGA.

Thank God!


Liverpool are NOT serious contenders for this guy. It's clickbait shite. Liverpool operate financially within their incomings. FSG are not taking money from the Sox to put in Liverpool. The mount of disinformation and rubbish people are using to back up POV is out of control at the moment.

[Hitch]

How can I not be suspicious of the Giolito signing? He used to be good, but for the past two seasons he has not been good.

The only sure thing with him is durability: start 30 games, throw 175 innings. If he still leads the league in giving up bombs the next two years, at least the Red Sox will have fielded a team for paying customers to watch.

That may be our worst-case scenario, but for all we know about the Committee running the front office that analyzes everything, it may be their most-confident scenario.

So you're calling them cheap for the possibility of the opt out and only paying half his contract, but also think he's not very good/a risk?

You can't have it both ways when looking to attack management over his deal.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

So you're calling them cheap for the possibility of the opt out and only paying half his contract, but also think he's not very good/a risk?

You can't have it both ways when looking to attack management over his deal.

Lots of assumptions you make using words I never posted.

Do you find it unsettling at all that if Giolito is bad enough to not opt out and cash in, that he gets to return for another year in Boston -- and that the Red Sox are perfectly ok with that?

[Hitch]

Lots of assumptions you make using words I never posted.

Do you find it unsettling at all that if Giolito is bad enough to not opt out and cash in, that he gets to return for another year in Boston -- and that the Red Sox are perfectly ok with that?

Well, feel free to use your words to clear up why you responded to Bells post about how cheap they are with a point about how we'll only have to pay half if he does as well as they expect. The insinuation seems pretty clear, no?

Unsettling? No, why would I? He was getting projected for a 4 year deal. I didn't particularly want him at all, but if he's here, I'm sure glad it's only a 2 year deal, max. If he pitches well enough to opt out, great.

[cp176]

I have never really been a big fan of John Henry. To me, he just does not come off as a likable guy. He surely has to get credit for breaking the curse and the four championships. But in the random, crapshoot world of post season baseball , you have to get the big breaks at the big moment. Other owners came close to winning it all, but the big plays always seemed to go against them. There is nothing an owner can do about it at that point. He gets credit for creating a nice atmosphere outside of Fenway, but he did that with some pretty shabby treatment of vendors who worked there for years. He has every right to limit his spending on the team, but then he will raise ticket and concession prices at the same time. A very bad look for the average fan. All in all, it certainly was great to finally beat the Yankees and the National League champs and break the long curse. But I just don't much care for John Henry. It wouldn't bother me a bit if he sold.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel!

[Hitch]

You don't get many billionaires that are nice people, too.

The worry if they sold was - who buys? That's a wack of cash, and we've see how shit some other owners are. The Premier League in England has seen teams bought up by gulf regimes looking to sports wash. It sucks.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Well, feel free to use your words to clear up why you responded to Bells post about how cheap they are with a point about how we'll only have to pay half if he does as well as they expect. The insinuation seems pretty clear, no?

Unsettling? No, why would I? He was getting projected for a 4 year deal. I didn't particularly want him at all, but if he's here, I'm sure glad it's only a 2 year deal, max. If he pitches well enough to opt out, great.

I didn't want him, either. Adding Giolito to the rotation for one good year, or one or two bad ones, stabilizes nothing -- it just puts us right back into the Bloom Era of 1-year/$10M fill-ins (only now the fair market price has nearly doubled).

If he's a #4, though -- which means Brez makes a big trade for a starter, and/or signs the likes of Montgomery/Imanaga/Stroman -- then it almost makes sense.

But replacing Sale with Giolito isn't much improvement. In fact, they were equal with 1.7 WAR last year, and that's after Gio threw almost twice as many innings... (his big strength, which saves the bullpen, but also offers more Bearclaw games if he's '23 ineffective).

[moonslav59]

Sonny Gray gets no respect. I think his $75 million deal looks pretty good, and E-Rod's $80 million deal isn't bad either. These are guys who have put up multiple 3-4 WAR seasons at prices that should be well within the Sox financial means.

I suspect that when Snell and Montgomery sign we'll probably say they got overpaid, and not by us.

It's not just this one offseason that's concerning. The Giolito contract is the biggest one they've given to a starting pitcher since Eovaldi in 2019.

Very concerning, and the Nate signing was not really adding any new pitcher from the previous season. In that respect, Giolito is the highest paid, out-of system FA pitcher signing since Price.

(Porcello and Sale were extensions, after we traded for them.)

When you couple this with no drafting or developing young pitchers very well, until maybe recently, it's no wonder our rotation looks like a list of 7-8 guys with question marks hanging from their necks.

[Randy Red Sox]

This is pretty much exactly how I feel!


I think a lot of fans feel the same

[moonslav59]

I didn't want him, either. Adding Giolito to the rotation for one good year, or one or two bad ones, stabilizes nothing -- it just puts us right back into the Bloom Era of 1-year/$10M fill-ins (only now the fair market price has nearly doubled).

If he's a #4, though -- which means Brez makes a big trade for a starter, and/or signs the likes of Montgomery/Imanaga/Stroman -- then it almost makes sense.

But replacing Sale with Giolito isn't much improvement. In fact, they were equal with 1.7 WAR last year, and that's after Gio threw almost twice as many innings... (his big strength, which saves the bullpen, but also offers more Bearclaw games if he's '23 ineffective).

Agreed.

It's great having a guy who takes the ball very 5 days, but is a 5 man rotation of Giolito's and Pivetta's getting us closer to respect?

That being said, I can see the chances a decent plus. Grissom could be the 2Bman we have been looking for. If we end up spending the Sale "savings." wisely, maybe we can see very nice gain from this trade.

Putting lost FAs aside, here is the net change:

Lost: Sale, Dugo, Urias (Drohan, RFern, N Robertson)

Gained: Giolito, O'Neill, Grissom, Campbell, Slaten, Fitts, Weisert

Looks again, like more quantity than quality and hoping these guys do well.

[Randy Red Sox]

Very concerning, and the Nate signing was not really adding any new pitcher from the previous season. In that respect, Giolito is the highest paid, out-of system FA pitcher signing since Price.

(Porcello and Sale were extensions, after we traded for them.)

When you couple this with no drafting or developing young pitchers very well, until maybe recently, it's no wonder our rotation looks like a list of 7-8 guys with question marks hanging from their necks.

And yet no one has come up with a reasonable solution as to how to solve the overall pitching weakness with the Sox other than to keep drafting the best SS in the 1st rd every year in the hopes he can be flipped for a top P prospect because that has worked so well for us.

[moonslav59]

And yet no one has come up with a reasonable solution as to how to solve the overall pitching weakness with the Sox other than to keep drafting the best SS in the 1st rd every year in the hopes he can be flipped for a top P prospect because that has worked so well for us.

And nobody has come up with a reasonable solution on how we can be sure we get a top pitching draft pick right.

But, actually, we have come up with some very reasonable solutions: the Sox just don't agree with them or try to enact them.

1. Sign a damn pitcher that is not a reclamation project would be a solution more likely to work than drafting a pitcher just for the sake of him being a pitcher and not being the best talent available.

2. Trade some of these non pitching prospects we drafted so highly, some of which appear to have very good trade value for the young and controlled SP'ers we never drafted or developed. (It worked, at least 3 times after the Pedro trade.)

These ideas haven't "worked," because they have not been tried.

Hell, the best somewhat high prospect trade we have made in the last 4 years was actually trading a pitching prospect (Aldo Ramirez) for a big bat (Schwarber.)

It seems like an easier and quicker solution by doing 1 and or 2 than to attempt to revamp the scouting, development and drafting aspects or our whole system.

I'm all for the revamp, but it would not automatically mean they new guys will or should draft an inferior prospect, just because he's a pitcher.

Not drafting pitchers highly does make it harder to produce a top pitcher, but to me, it's more about development and finding gems in rounds 3 or worse.

We should do that plus #1 anytime and #2, when needed.

[Randy Red Sox]

And nobody has come up with a reasonable solution on how we can be sure we get a top pitching draft pick right.

But, actually, we have come up with some very reasonable solutions: the Sox just don't agree with them or try to enact them.

1. Sign a damn pitcher that is not a reclamation project would be a solution more likely to work than drafting a pitcher just for the sake of him being a pitcher and not being the best talent available.

2. Trade some of these non pitching prospects we drafted so highly, some of which appear to have very good trade value for the young and controlled SP'ers we never drafted or developed. (It worked, at least 3 times after the Pedro trade.)

These ideas haven't "worked," because they have not been tried.

Hell, the best somewhat high prospect trade we have made in the last 4 years was actually trading a pitching prospect (Aldo Ramirez) for a big bat (Schwarber.)

It seems like an easier and quicker solution by doing 1 and or 2 than to attempt to revamp the scouting, development and drafting aspects or our whole system.

I'm all for the revamp, but it would not automatically mean they new guys will or should draft an inferior prospect, just because he's a pitcher.

Not drafting pitchers highly does make it harder to produce a top pitcher, but to me, it's more about development and finding gems in rounds 3 or worse.

We should do that plus #1 anytime and #2, when needed.



The bottom line is that the FO has proven they are NOT going to sign 30 yr old TOP FA SP anymore and they have not been able to come up with any real other ways to get quality young controllable P. As proven when they let Xander and Mookie walk they have little or no interest in maintaining any of their homegrown players who become stars. They are following the Tampa model ( which is why they hired Bloom in the 1st place) where they try and build from within the system and when the players reach the point of demanding raises they will be shipped out for prospects and the cycle continues. This is now the Red Sox way sprinkled with a few 1 yr veteran player signings to keep the team competing and all the while raising prices on everything

[moonslav59]

The bottom line is that the FO has proven they are NOT going to sign 30 yr old TOP FA SP anymore and they have not been able to come up with any real other ways to get quality young controllable P. As proven when they let Xander and Mookie walk they have little or no interest in maintaining any of their homegrown players who become stars. They are following the Tampa model ( which is why they hired Bloom in the 1st place) where they try and build from within the system and when the players reach the point of demanding raises they will be shipped out for prospects and the cycle continues. This is now the Red Sox way sprinkled with a few 1 yr veteran player signings to keep the team competing and all the while raising prices on everything

The Rays model includes trading for Young pitchers from other teams.

Look, I'm all for putting major resources into finding, scouting, acquiring and developing the best young pitchers in the world. Indeed, if we are not ever going to sign a big FA pitcher, again, then this is essential.

It also takes time: usually a lot of time. It does not mean we should decide to copy the Angels and draft any and every pitcher possible. I know you are not advocating that, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can never support a plan that involves purposely drafting inferior players, just because they pitch. If it's a real close call, then make that the deciding factor, especially in the mid to later rounds, but when you have a top 7 to 15 pick, I'm always for taking the best and or least riskiest player out there. How to decide which factor matters most (best vs less risky) is a hard nut to crack, and it is the risk factor that usually brings down pitching candidates. Can or should we tweak that balance a bit?

I'm not so sure.

I'm also no more convinced we can pull it off, as in start drafting and developing top pitchers by the next draft, as I am that we will never spend agai or make a trade.

I'm actually thinking a big trade for a young SP is in the works, as we speak. Why? Because it costs JH nothing.

[Dipre]

Like I said earlier, we'll get the actual details on our offer to Yamamoto...

right after we get the details on our last offer to Mookie.

That's the whole point. We just don't know.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

That's the whole point. We just don't know.

With Mookie it felt like they just didn't want to go as high as he was talking, with Yamamoto, it feels like he just wanted to go to LA all along. Allegedly Steve Cohen said he'd up any offer LA gave him after he left new york but didn't even give the Mets a chance. He took his bids to LA and they matched and he signed. Yamamoto was always going to LA.

I know there are reports that Mookie was always going to FA, and he wasn't going to resign here, but who knows how true that is and if $365 million dollars would have changed his mind. Also, he signed after covid hit and there was a lot of uncertainty in the world at that time. $365 million dangled in front of your face might look a whole lot different in the summer of 2020 than it would in the summer of 2019.

But I suppose we will never truly know for certain what could have been, but I'm fairly certain Yamamoto was always a no go here. I wanted him hard, but after seeing how the whole thing went down, it's obvious to me now that we never had a chance. It was LA all along.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

The Rays model includes trading for Young pitchers from other teams.

Look, I'm all for putting major resources into finding, scouting, acquiring and developing the best young pitchers in the world. Indeed, if we are not ever going to sign a big FA pitcher, again, then this is essential.

It also takes time: usually a lot of time. It does not mean we should decide to copy the Angels and draft any and every pitcher possible. I know you are not advocating that, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can never support a plan that involves purposely drafting inferior players, just because they pitch. If it's a real close call, then make that the deciding factor, especially in the mid to later rounds, but when you have a top 7 to 15 pick, I'm always for taking the best and or least riskiest player out there. How to decide which factor matters most (best vs less risky) is a hard nut to crack, and it is the risk factor that usually brings down pitching candidates. Can or should we tweak that balance a bit?

I'm not so sure.

I'm also no more convinced we can pull it off, as in start drafting and developing top pitchers by the next draft, as I am that we will never spend agai or make a trade.

I'm actually thinking a big trade for a young SP is in the works, as we speak. Why? Because it costs JH nothing.


Other teams models of bringing in pitching often include bringing in young unproven players, or young cost controlled pitchers without a performance record, where said team is able to fix something. Or they're trading for young pitching (like the Fitts trade). THe other way is to draft.

The former, is something posters in here would complain about prefusively, the later.....well Boston just doesn't do that. Maybe Breslow will change the organizational philosophy on drafting and developing pitchers. But in the absesnce of trading away the farm for a guy....there's zero quick fix. It's going to take years to build the pitching up in this organization. And fans will not like hearing that one bit.

[jacksonianmarch]

You need to have a strong farm system regardless. This is one of the reasons the Dodgers have stayed so good. They mixed massive spending with awesome development to be able to make trades for stars year in and year out. Overshadowed with their craziness this year is the fact they added Glasnow to their rotation by trading young, high end arms.

The sox development team was humming in the 00s. Just better than everyone. They took down a star laden and older 2004 title team and turned them into a home grown title winner in 07 bringing in a new age of Sox stars. When Cherington took over, he kept the farm churning but he was paralyzed when it came to dealing away pieces. DD comes in and raped, pillaged and salted the earth. His Dev people were mostly kept when Bloom came in and the development has been awful. The sox should absolutely gut their development team. Start over, bring in new guys. Drafting is just part 1 of the dev process. Their issues have not been the draft, per se. It has been the fact that they get these top 100 BA draftees and they turn into dogshit.

[Bellhorn04]

That's the whole point. We just don't know.

Because the only leaks we get are the ones they want us to to get.

With Betts, he came right out and said no $300 million offer was ever made, and no one has refuted that, so I have to assume it's true.

With Moto, there were stories that suggested the Red Sox were "on the periphery", or words to that effect, which generally mean "not a chance in hell". I'm going to go ahead and assume they didn't make a competitive offer unless there's evidence they did.

[notin]

Because the only leaks we get are the ones they want us to to get.

With Betts, he came right out and said no $300 million offer was ever made, and no one has refuted that, so I have to assume it's true.

With Moto, there were stories that suggested the Red Sox were "on the periphery", or words to that effect, which generally mean "not a chance in hell". I'm going to go ahead and assume they didn't make a competitive offer unless there's evidence they did.


Betts came out and said it after the man who reportedly made it was no longer with Boston. I think people want to believe Betts, because it fosters the belief he was always easily retainable but for management greed/incompetence. But that doesn’t make the story do.

In fact, most front offices rarely discuss public offers they made to players. I thought they were forbidden to do so in the CBA, but I’m not positive of this. What we do know it’s certainly rare, which was why Cashman releasing details of a seven year $230mill extension that Judge rejected became a big story. We rarely get that level of transparency from teams. Players (specifically, players’ agents) are always willing to talk, which gives them an upper hand when it comes to public perception.

Plus, no one roots for ownership. Being fans of players makes them harder to disbelieve them, especially in the wake of silence. But that doesn’t make them right. Or honest.

It’s also possible some/many/most players take little to no interest in the negotiating aspect of representation. And therefore don’t hear about every offer…

[moonslav59]

Other teams models of bringing in pitching often include bringing in young unproven players, or young cost controlled pitchers without a performance record, where said team is able to fix something. Or they're trading for young pitching (like the Fitts trade). THe other way is to draft.

The former, is something posters in here would complain about prefusively, the later.....well Boston just doesn't do that. Maybe Breslow will change the organizational philosophy on drafting and developing pitchers. But in the absesnce of trading away the farm for a guy....there's zero quick fix. It's going to take years to build the pitching up in this organization. And fans will not like hearing that one bit.

We have been doing it more than before, but still not at the level other teams seem to be doing it. No doubt, we have a ways to go.

Winckowski
Whitlock
Pivetta (not a prospect)
Schreiber
Bernardino
Z Kelly

We just added a bunch of pitchers who might be good:
Campbell
Fitts
Slaten
Weissert and more