Rodon

[Red Foreman]

To the Yankess 6 yes $162M

[moonslav59]

$27M x 6

The Yank's budget is tightening.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yanks playing with the big boys now. That’s a hell of a rotation, gotta add to the offense now

[moonslav59]

Yanks playing with the big boys now. That’s a hell of a rotation, gotta add to the offense now

So, the wallet is going to open wider?

[iortiz]

If Sox sign Swanson, Eovaldi and Wacha, things will get interesting in the east.

[moonslav59]

If Sox sign Swanson, Eovaldi and Wacha, things will get interesting in the east.

Impossible.

We are not going over the tax line.

[d-money]

Meanwhile the sox are playing small ball. We are a small market team lol.

[Jasonbay44]

If Sox sign Swanson, Eovaldi and Wacha, things will get interesting in the east.

I’d be surprised if they signed any of those guys

[d-money]

So, the wallet is going to open wider?

No such thing as a limit with the Yankees.

[moonslav59]

No such thing as a limit with the Yankees.

They have been relatively cheap for a few years now, as compared to the "George years." They used to be number 1 or 2 for years and years.

They reset in 2018 and 2021, so they have not gone over for 3 straight years since up 2017 and before.

It remains to be seen, if they reset in 2024, and if the do, things will get tight.

[a700hitter]

Bloom is knocking it out of the park with the lowered expectations. Most people agreed that this off-season was pivotal for Bloom. It looks like he pivoted to secure last place.

[Old Red]

Bloom is knocking it out of the park with the lowered expectations. Most people agreed that this off-season was pivotal for Bloom. It looks like he pivoted to secure last place.

He didn’t have to pivot at all.

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom is knocking it out of the park with the lowered expectations. Most people agreed that this off-season was pivotal for Bloom. It looks like he pivoted to secure last place.

We said it would be a flashpoint for him. Instead it's looking like a flushpoint.

[Bellhorn04]

The next free agent dominoes to fall are Eovaldi and Kluber. After that there isn't much.

If Bloom doesn't sign either of those two, and doesn't make a significant trade for a starter...(fill in your own thoughts).

[Old Red]

The next free agent dominoes to fall are Eovaldi and Kluber. After that there isn't much.

If Bloom doesn't sign either of those two, and doesn't make a significant trade for a starter...(fill in your own thoughts).

We’re not losing trust, and faith in Bloom are we?

[Bellhorn04]

We’re not losing trust, and faith in Bloom are we?

I already said I have zero faith in him right now, especially after what he said about Story. The only thing I can figure is that they've decided to punt this year after all. What's really bad is punting or tanking is looking like a better idea all the time.

[Old Red]

I already said I have zero faith in him right now, especially after what he said about Story. The only thing I can figure is that they've decided to punt this year after all. What's really bad is punting or tanking is looking like a better idea all the time.

That statement about Story was more of a head scratcher than the JBJ trade. His range has nothing whatsoever to do with his arm strength from the SS hole.

[moonslav59]

I already said I have zero faith in him right now, especially after what he said about Story.

It was hard to understand what he was saying, but I think he meant Story's weak arm will be outweighed by his exceptional range, and with no shift, anymore, having exceptional range may make SS range more important than it has been for a while. He is quite an athlete.

The reports on his arm may be overblown.

BTW, fangraphs had Swanson as the highest ranked SS on defense, despite his reported "weak arm."

I'm more worried about Arroyo and E Valdez at 2B, of them deciding to put Kike at 2B and Refsnyder or Dugo in CF and Ref in RF.

[Bellhorn04]

It was hard to understand what he was saying, but I think he meant Story's weak arm will be outweighed by his exceptional range, and with no shift, anymore, having exceptional range may make SS range more important than it has been for a while. He is quite an athlete.

The reports on his arm may be overblown.

BTW, fangraphs had Swanson as the highest ranked SS on defense, despite his reported "weak arm."

I'm more worried about Arroyo and E Valdez at 2B, of them deciding to put Kike at 2B and Refsnyder or Dugo in CF and Ref in RF.

Yes, there's plenty to worry about.

[Jasonbay44]

Yes, there's plenty to worry about.

I'm worried about basically every facet of the team at this point.

[moonslav59]

Yes, there's plenty to worry about.

It does look like 2024 is more of a priority than 2023, but there were a few deals that might have been made that would have helped both, and beyond.

I really can't bring myself to believe that Henry is in a cocoon or just doesn't care what is going on around Sox Nation to not snap out of it, and do something spectacular by opening day.

The options are coming down to just a trade or trades, and with the future being the untouchable goal, I'm not sure how they can pull it off, or if it would even make sense, at this point.

The plan seems to have been to replace Bogey with Mayer, so how do we now trade Mayer?

Our rotation is already heavily depending on Bello and maybe even Mata, so how do we trade one of them?

We need a RF'er and Kike has one year of control left. Yoshida can only play LF or DH, so how do we trade Rafaela?

We don't get a high impact player for Yorke, Walter and Romero, and I doubt they'd even consider trading them or Bleis, for that matter.

Is the plan really to reset and splurge, next winter?

Can Sox nation stomach another off year and promises of "next year we will be better?"

We are fast running out of options to get us just past respectability and having a sliver of grander hoped for more than a WC game.

[moonslav59]

I'm worried about basically every facet of the team at this point.

I'm not.

I like ...

1B Casas
LF/DH Yoshida/Dugo
CF Kike
Story at 2B- not so much at SS
Devers at 3B, assuming he's not traded
I actually like McGuire and Wong but am not ready to say I'm not worried about catcher.

I like our pen- that's a first.

I like Whitlock & Bello as maybe our 3-4 starters with Pivetta as the 5, but right now, they may be our 1-2-3.

I'm very hopeful we some good things from some or most of these guys: Mata, Kelly, German and maybe some important minor roles filled by some or most of these guys: Wong, Crawford, Wink, Seabold, Walter, Murphy, EValdez or even- gasp- Sale or Paxton. (I know enough not to even dream both can do anything good.)

I know these are some gaping holes, but to me, there are only 3 (like that's not a lot): SS, RF, SP.

The problem is, we need major pluses from those three, and then the other 23 would look okay, but what are the chances we get even one major plus?

[Nick]

It does look like 2024 is more of a priority than 2023, but there were a few deals that might have been made that would have helped both, and beyond.

I really can't bring myself to believe that Henry is in a cocoon or just doesn't care what is going on around Sox Nation to not snap out of it, and do something spectacular by opening day.

The options are coming down to just a trade or trades, and with the future being the untouchable goal, I'm not sure how they can pull it off, or if it would even make sense, at this point.

The plan seems to have been to replace Bogey with Mayer, so how do we now trade Mayer?

Our rotation is already heavily depending on Bello and maybe even Mata, so how do we trade one of them?

We need a RF'er and Kike has one year of control left. Yoshida can only play LF or DH, so how do we trade Rafaela?

We don't get a high impact player for Yorke, Walter and Romero, and I doubt they'd even consider trading them or Bleis, for that matter.

Is the plan really to reset and splurge, next winter?

Can Sox nation stomach another off year and promises of "next year we will be better?"

We are fast running out of options to get us just past respectability and having a sliver of grander hoped for more than a WC game.

I am against trading away our young talent.

With Bloom's approach, he needs another season for younger kids to grow a year older and hopefully get better.

As I've said often, I'm having trouble nailing down the core group that will get us to the playoffs annually.

My concerns would be alleviated if we do extend Devers this winter. Right now I'm not very optimistic of that happening.

So the core group right now consists of Story (due to his contract length), Yoshida, Casas, Bello, Whitlock, Houck and maybe couple of others.

That is not a deep roster. It was stupid not to get under the tax limit during July. Bloom basically treaded water. Did just enough not to piss off the fanbase. See what that got us.

[moonslav59]

I am against trading away our young talent.

With Bloom's approach, he needs another season for younger kids to grow a year older and hopefully get better.

As I've said often, I'm having trouble nailing down the core group that will get us to the playoffs annually.

My concerns would be alleviated if we do extend Devers this winter. Right now I'm not very optimistic of that happening.

So the core group right now consists of Story (due to his contract length), Yoshida, Casas, Bello, Whitlock, Houck and maybe couple of others.

That is not a deep roster. It was stupid not to get under the tax limit during July. Bloom basically treaded water. Did just enough not to piss off the fanbase. See what that got us.

Maybe the reason we haven't spent more, so far, is they plan on extending Devers, starting in 2023, so the AAV is lower, later on, when we plan to reset.

[moonslav59]

That is not a deep roster. It was stupid not to get under the tax limit during July. Bloom basically treaded water. Did just enough not to piss off the fanbase. See what that got us.

Basically, my point, this past summer.

The brass was too afraid of pissing off the fans by working to reset, and ended up making them very happy, this winter.

I blamed it on "crybaby fans," and took a lot of grief on the semantics, but the theory seems as right now as it did, then. Where did it get us?

Just stick to the long term plan and do what's best for the team. Fans get over unpopular moves, as long as you win. Now, we got neither.

Not only would staying under the tax line, this season given us more budget flexibility, we'd have gotten two comp picks after the 2nd round not the 4th round, next draft.

They screw up when the start changing the plan mid-stride. I'm with you. Stick to the plan, but it sure does suck, they blew a chance to be much better in 2023 on the way to even better things afterwards.

Now, I'm hearing people talking tanking.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bloom has done wonders for the MiLB system, but not because he’s added tremendous talent, mostly because he has had a bad team that allowed for a high pick and he’s not trading away his diamonds in the rough. Mayer is special and you only get a guy like that when you suck.

But he made a MASSIVE error in not tearing down at the break. Massive. He knew they weren’t gonna keep Bogaerts. He knew he wasnt gonna try and keep Eovaldi. What’s the point of them playing out a string and getting a 4th rounder for them?

[Old Red]

Basically, my point, this past summer.

The brass was too afraid of pissing off the fans by working to reset, and ended up making them very happy, this winter.

I blamed it on "crybaby fans," and took a lot of grief on the semantics, but the theory seems as right now as it did, then. Where did it get us?

Just stick to the long term plan and do what's best for the team. Fans get over unpopular moves, as long as you win. Now, we got neither.

Not only would staying under the tax line, this season given us more budget flexibility, we'd have gotten two comp picks after the 2nd round not the 4th round, next draft.

They screw up when the start changing the plan mid-stride. I'm with you. Stick to the plan, but it sure does suck, they blew a chance to be much better in 2023 on the way to even better things afterwards.

Now, I'm hearing people talking tanking.

Sounds like you are doing what you accuse other fans of being. A crybaby fan. There were all kinds of reasons for last years finish, from injuries to lack of production from the big stars, but Bloom had a lot to do with it too starting with his infamous JBJ trade, his very bad failed plan for the back end of the BP to start the season, and then of course his do nothing approach to the 1B, CF problem of Franchy Strangeglove, and Duran the Butterfly Man, until the trade deadline. There were still in it at that point, and to me still should have gone for a postseason birth. You didn’t like it, but many did.

[Old Red]

Basically, my point, this past summer.

The brass was too afraid of pissing off the fans by working to reset, and ended up making them very happy, this winter.

I blamed it on "crybaby fans," and took a lot of grief on the semantics, but the theory seems as right now as it did, then. Where did it get us?

Just stick to the long term plan and do what's best for the team. Fans get over unpopular moves, as long as you win. Now, we got neither.

Not only would staying under the tax line, this season given us more budget flexibility, we'd have gotten two comp picks after the 2nd round not the 4th round, next draft.

They screw up when the start changing the plan mid-stride. I'm with you. Stick to the plan, but it sure does suck, they blew a chance to be much better in 2023 on the way to even better things afterwards.

Now, I'm hearing people talking tanking.
You are hearing a couple on here talk about tanking. Hearing it anywhere else? I’m not.Tell that to the ticket buyers who are even paying more money this year, and see how that works.

[oldtimer]

I am against trading away our young talent.

With Bloom's approach, he needs another season for younger kids to grow a year older and hopefully get better.

As I've said often, I'm having trouble nailing down the core group that will get us to the playoffs annually.

My concerns would be alleviated if we do extend Devers this winter. Right now I'm not very optimistic of that happening.

So the core group right now consists of Story (due to his contract length), Yoshida, Casas, Bello, Whitlock, Houck angetd maybe couple of others.

That is not a deep roster. It was stupid not to get under the tax limit during July. Bloom basically treaded water. Did just enough not to piss off the fanbase. See what that got us.

I agree that it was a bad mistake not to reset last season making it a necessity to reset in the 2023 season, given that they probably understood Bogey was going. No amount of spending in the off season would realistically make the team competitive in the 2023 season without jeopardizing the team's longer term future. I now doubt that they can keep Devers as he can get a big contract from a playoff caliber team in the offseason. I believe Moon has opined that it might be better to trade Devers and look to 2024 as the year to make a splash.

Given where we are at this point, aiming for 2024 does make the most sense, but the Sox front office should be honest with the fan base that the plan has now changed to aim for 2024 and later. Keeping our best young prospects would be a sign that the plan is for 2024 and later. Will Bloom survive another poor result in 2023 and the trade or failure to sign Devers? Stay tuned.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

How can the Red Sox tank when they're going to be way better?

For those who somehow think Henry will suddenly have an epiphany and start spending like the before he was very old days, the question is only: on what? All the top free agent starting pitchers are now signed... in this offseason with tons of money coming off the Boston books that would supposedly define the Bloom Era.

The Sox lost three starting pitchers, and haven't replaced them... but have confidence in Bloom's adamance about putting Whitlock and Houck in the rotation: "we would be silly to deny them a chance to reach that ceiling."

Here's his plan: "We'll see how it plays out..."

[moonslav59]

Bloom has done wonders for the MiLB system, but not because he’s added tremendous talent, mostly because he has had a bad team that allowed for a high pick and he’s not trading away his diamonds in the rough. Mayer is special and you only get a guy like that when you suck.

But he made a MASSIVE error in not tearing down at the break. Massive. He knew they weren’t gonna keep Bogaerts. He knew he wasnt gonna try and keep Eovaldi. What’s the point of them playing out a string and getting a 4th rounder for them?

One other part to building up a farm- not trading away any top farm assets.

He also added Whitlock, Kelly and German, and not by having teams that finished low in the standings.

[Old Red]

How can the Red Sox tank when they're going to be way better?

For those who somehow think Henry will suddenly have an epiphany and start spending like the before he was very old days, the question is only: on what? All the top free agent starting pitchers are now signed... in this offseason with tons of money coming off the Boston books that would supposedly define the Bloom Era.

The Sox lost three starting pitchers, and haven't replaced them... but have confidence in Bloom's adamance about putting Whitlock and Houck in the rotation: "we would be silly to deny them a chance to reach that ceiling."

Here's his plan: "We'll see how it plays out..."
Bloom wouldn’t have lied to Kike would he when he said they were going to be better this year would he? Could he? Should he?

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

One other part to building up a farm- not trading away any top farm assets.

He also added Whitlock, Kelly and German, and not by having teams that finished low in the standings.

Bloom has brought in talent, but a lot of his trades have been underwhelming. Whitlock was a gem, and the early returns on his drafting and IFA signings appear to be very good. But the trading, it's too early to judge and it could change if a guy or two pop but it doesn't look great.

[moonslav59]

Sounds like you are doing what you accuse other fans of being. A crybaby fan.

No matter how much I simplify it for you, you still totally miss my point.

The "crybaby" statement was about upset fans that forced Bloom & Co. to not do even a mild sell-off, unless you count Vaz as such. It wasn't meant as an accusatory thing other than towards Sox management for letting them alter what should have been done.

Later, when yo started crying about me using the term crybaby, I called you one, and the shoe clearly fits, because here you are still at it.

I also said both sides cry and listed things I cry about. That's "accusatory?"

LMAO!

[moonslav59]

There were all kinds of reasons for last years finish, from injuries to lack of production from the big stars, but Bloom had a lot to do with it too starting with his infamous JBJ trade, his very bad failed plan for the back end of the BP to start the season, and then of course his do nothing approach to the 1B, CF problem of Franchy Strangeglove, and Duran the Butterfly Man, until the trade deadline. There were still in it at that point, and to me still should have gone for a postseason birth. You didn’t like it, but many did.

Yes, many did, and that was part of the reason, IMO, we did not trade JDand or Nate.

I get the fact there were other reasons, but IMO, if they knew the fans would get over trading Nate and JD at the deadline, fairly quickly, they be gone.

It's just my opinion, and many disagree.

You bashed Bloom and the flawed the team all year. When I agreed about the team being so flawed we had no chance, and was one of the first, if not the first to jump ship, you defend the team as looking like they had a chance.

Pick a side and stick to it.

You know we had no chance, and I know you know.

[Old Red]

Yes, many did, and that was part of the reason, IMO, we did not trade JDand or Nate.

I get the fact there were other reasons, but IMO, if they knew the fans would get over trading Nate and JD at the deadline, fairly quickly, they be gone.

It's just my opinion, and many disagree.

You bashed Bloom and the flawed the team all year. When I agreed about the team being so flawed we had no chance, and was one of the first, if not the first to jump ship, you defend the team as looking like they had a chance.

Pick a side and stick to it.

You know we had no chance, and I know you know.
I criticized Bloom all year, and rightfully so, and I listed the reasons why, and no I wasn’t the only one on here who said the Red Sox should have played out the string, and you know that too. The bad part was I had to pick up the daily wildcard standings update when you bailed out, so at least I didn’t quit like you did.

[Old Red]

Bloom has brought in talent, but a lot of his trades have been underwhelming. Whitlock was a gem, and the early returns on his drafting and IFA signings appear to be very good. But the trading, it's too early to judge and it could change if a guy or two pop but it doesn't look great.
It’s to early to judge Jeter, and Franchy two of Bloom’s prized returns?

[moonslav59]

How can the Red Sox tank when they're going to be way better?

For those who somehow think Henry will suddenly have an epiphany and start spending like the before he was very old days, the question is only: on what? All the top free agent starting pitchers are now signed... in this offseason with tons of money coming off the Boston books that would supposedly define the Bloom Era.

The Sox lost three starting pitchers, and haven't replaced them... but have confidence in Bloom's adamance about putting Whitlock and Houck in the rotation: "we would be silly to deny them a chance to reach that ceiling."

Here's his plan: "We'll see how it plays out..."

My guess is, he "starts spending" like the ole days, next winter. Just a guess.

I'm not sure how the fans will tolerate it. It got pretty bad, this past season and exploded after the Bogey departure.

One big step would be to extend Devers by opening day or shortly afterwards.

Adding 2-3 from Kluber, Conforto, Gallo and Andrus would help partially patch a few holes up, perhaps enough to make us WC competitive in '23, but that's a long shot.

It appears their "secret plan" was to shoot for 2024 or 2025, all along. Maybe the honestly felt they could stay competitive or semi-competitive enough along the way to keep fans from bailing, but their efforts have been half-assed, which has actually made things worse. Their way on conveying their plans to the fans and media is about as bad as I've ever seen a team be.

To me, it seemed, and still seems like we have been steadily building up the farm and increasing the amount of young, cost-controlled players on the 40 man roster for 3 straight years, but we kept getting in our own way by clinging to to the false hopes of winning it all in in 2021 or 2022. They didn't believe it themselves, but they tried to sell it to us.

I know, I know, we were just a few plays from making the WS in 2021, so how can I say "false hopes?" That's a good argument against my positions, but all these non moves to keep us temporarily semi-competitive has sabotaged the long term plan, which I think was at the heart of the Bloom hiring.

Where do we go from here, the right now?

I'm not sure, even they know.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

It’s to early to judge Jeter, and Franchy two of Bloom’s prized returns?

no.

[Bellhorn04]

It does look like 2024 is more of a priority than 2023, but there were a few deals that might have been made that would have helped both, and beyond.

I really can't bring myself to believe that Henry is in a cocoon or just doesn't care what is going on around Sox Nation to not snap out of it, and do something spectacular by opening day.

The options are coming down to just a trade or trades, and with the future being the untouchable goal, I'm not sure how they can pull it off, or if it would even make sense, at this point.

The plan seems to have been to replace Bogey with Mayer, so how do we now trade Mayer?

Our rotation is already heavily depending on Bello and maybe even Mata, so how do we trade one of them?

We need a RF'er and Kike has one year of control left. Yoshida can only play LF or DH, so how do we trade Rafaela?

We don't get a high impact player for Yorke, Walter and Romero, and I doubt they'd even consider trading them or Bleis, for that matter.

Is the plan really to reset and splurge, next winter?

Can Sox nation stomach another off year and promises of "next year we will be better?"

We are fast running out of options to get us just past respectability and having a sliver of grander hoped for more than a WC game.

You nailed it pretty well here.

[Old Red]

My guess is, he "starts spending" like the ole days, next winter. Just a guess.

I'm not sure how the fans will tolerate it. It got pretty bad, this past season and exploded after the Bogey departure.

One big step would be to extend Devers by opening day or shortly afterwards.

Adding 2-3 from Kluber, Conforto, Gallo and Andrus would help partially patch a few holes up, perhaps enough to make us WC competitive in '23, but that's a long shot.

It appears their "secret plan" was to shoot for 2024 or 2025, all along. Maybe the honestly felt they could stay competitive or semi-competitive enough along the way to keep fans from bailing, but their efforts have been half-assed, which has actually made things worse. Their way on conveying their plans to the fans and media is about as bad as I've ever seen a team be.

To me, it seemed, and still seems like we have been steadily building up the farm and increasing the amount of young, cost-controlled players on the 40 man roster for 3 straight years, but we kept getting in our own way by clinging to to the false hopes of winning it all in in 2021 or 2022. They didn't believe it themselves, but they tried to sell it to us.

I know, I know, we were just a few plays from making the WS in 2021, so how can I say "false hopes?" That's a good argument against my positions, but all these non moves to keep us temporarily semi-competitive has sabotaged the long term plan, which I think was at the heart of the Bloom hiring.

Where do we go from here, the right now?

I'm not sure, even they know.
Then why did Bloom lie to Kike, and tell him the Red Sox were going to be better next year?

[Bellhorn04]

Then why did Bloom lie to Kike, and tell him the Red Sox were going to be better next year?

Because part of being a HOBO is being a politician.

[Old Red]

Because part of being a HOBO is being a politician.

But Kike bought in whole line, and sinker.

[moonslav59]

I criticized Bloom all year, and rightfully so, and I listed the reasons why, and no I wasn’t the only one on here who said the Red Sox should have played out the string, and you know that too. The bad part was I had to pick up the daily wildcard standings update when you bailed out, so at least I didn’t quit like you did.

I did not say you were the only one. I do remember you saying Bogey has a no trade clause, which was correct, but had we traded JD and Nate and asked Bogey if he wanted to shed his QO and go to a team in the playoffs, I think he'd have agreed.

Yes, I quit, then, I'm not proud of it. I'm usually one of the last to bail.

Seems like many have quit, now and with many good reasons, and my point is if we had "quit" at the deadline, we'd be better off, now. Can I now say my position back then was "rightfully so?" of is that phrase only to be used by you.

I was wrong about a lot, last year and before. I was right about how horrific the JBJ trade was and many of the other moves we both disliked from day one. It turns out many of us were right that the minute we signed Story, Bogey's departure was as near a sure bet as can be. I was right about the 2022 having no chance at a ring, and being the first one to think that does not make me any smarter. Of course, on paper and with hopes of so many returning players from the IL, we still had a technical chance. What I felt was we had no chance for a ring. I'm not a believer in the playoffs-are-a-crap-shoot crowd, and this year nearly proved me wrong on that position, too, but to me, any slight chance of pulling off what the Phillies just did was outweighed by how badly not resetting would hurt us AND how much better off we'd have been this winter had we strengthened the roster further by adding pieces via trades of JD, Nate, Wacha, Hill and B ogey, if he accepted.

Now, we look screwed and Henry & Bloom are to blame for not doing what most did not want him to do, this summer- among many other things, of course.

[Bellhorn04]

But Kike bought in whole line, and sinker.

The "we'll pay you $10 million for one year" part may have had something to do with it.

[Bellhorn04]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

What's done is done.

[notin]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

What's done is done.

I didn’t mind them going for it. And the tone player they did deal, they sitting up upgrading the position…

[Bellhorn04]

I didn’t mind them going for it. And the tone player they did deal, they sitting up upgrading the position…

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

[moonslav59]

Then why did Bloom lie to Kike, and tell him the Red Sox were going to be better next year?

Looks like a big lie. I can't believe he thought we were going to do more, this winter.

I realize the market surge for the best player made the $80M many of us though could buy us 3-4 big players turn into hopes for maybe 2-3, and the reality of just Yoshida. Look, I get it. I'm pissed, too. We still have $40M on the table, and the table is full of just scraps.

This was the plan they felt "made us better?"

There are no explanations, except that it's been one long sham since the first time they said we were going to try and "be competitive." That was, what, 2 years ago?

I'm not defending Bloom, here, but this is coming from the top. The top would not allow any splurges, this winter, and that makes it impossible for me to think they could never have truly believed we'd be better.

On the flip side, and I know we are all pissed, and maybe some want to wallow in the mire for much longer than I do, I am going to try and be optimistic about the extended future and also enjoy watching the kids come up, this year. This is not taking Sox brass off the hook, and maybe it is just how I cope with frustration and anger. (I hate letting if fester, but they are making it so hard to move on.)

I'm curious about how well McGuire and Wong will do, and if catcher defense and staff handling matters as much as I think it does.

I'm dying to see if Casas is the real thing and actually not see buffoon defense at 1B, this year.

I'm hoping Story makes his $140M/6 deal look like the deal of the decade.

I'm excited to see what Devers will do, now that he has reached peak prime.

I'm dreaming that Arroyo can play a full season. I think E valdez may surprise many of us.

The Yoshida addition is a big question mark, but his approach has me feeling positive anticipations.

I'm a big Kike fan, and hope he can bounce back from a bad year and stay healthy for 2023.

I don't like Dugo in RF, but I like the look of an .800+ platoon of Dugo & Ref. Maybe that outweighs the drop in RF D. We'll see,

I'm loving the pen more than even the 2018 one, when Kimbrel was a pins and needles closer, especially at the end of '18.

I'm very hopeful about Bello, Mata, Kelly and German. I'm thinking 1-2 might shine from Walter, Crawford, Murphy, Winckowski or Seabold. That's 9 young pitchers with varying levels of promise and skillsets.

I'm done "hoping" for Sale to start 25+ games, but he might? If he doesn't, maybe he and Paxton can combine for 25+ or even 33.

I like Pivetta as our #5, but he has to stay at #5, or it won't be that pretty,

I'd like to see Houck given one role and keep him there. I have my preference, but even if they choose the other option, just stick with it! I'm expecting good things from him.

Maybe Barnes and or Taylor shine, again.

There is a lot, here to look forward to watching, if you choose to want to be optimistic about.

This isn't the same as saying be optimistic about winning even 90 games, but there could be a lot of fun things to watch. (No, I'm not going for the Sox PR job, but I'm not going to be miserable all winter long, either.)

[moonslav59]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

What's done is done.

Well said, and one can argue we were right in hindsight, only.

[moonslav59]

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

Not many players age well after 30. It is likely Vaz will be better than McGuire in 2023, but maybe not beyond. Maybe Wong will be so much better than Plawecki, it all evens out or even becomes a plus, sooner than 2024.

The staff-handling aspect or catchers may be more important than ever in 2023.

We ended up basically trading Vaz, Groome and Nortcut. Vaz was going to be a FA we obviously had no intention of bringing back. Groome was probably going to be left unprotected on Rule 5, if Ward was.

Going forward, we added...

McGuire
E Valdez
Abreu
Ferguson
Rosier

I have to think we look better, now, because of those trades.

[mvp 78]

We need to stop re-litigating last year's trade deadline. Those who said fire sale have been proven to be right. I still don't fault the team for not doing it.

What's done is done.

1. Stop relitigating? No, it's fine to relitigate it until this year's team is actually constructed. There really isn't enough other meat on the bone to discuss right now.
2. Those who said. Yes, I was right AS USUAL. :cool:
3. Fault the team for not doing it. I guess? I see why they thought they should go for it, but at the time I thought that ship was sinking fast. FO has more information on their end, but it was an odd decision to stay over the cap to hurt your comp selections.

[Bellhorn04]

1. Stop relitigating? No, it's fine to relitigate it until this year's team is actually constructed. There really isn't enough other meat on the bone to discuss right now.
2. Those who said. Yes, I was right AS USUAL. :cool:
3. Fault the team for not doing it. I guess? I see why they thought they should go for it, but at the time I thought that ship was sinking fast. FO has more information on their end, but it was an odd decision to stay over the cap to hurt your comp selections.

I would submit that the real mistake was going over the cap at the start of the season, and that's where the trade for JBJ comes into the conversation.

[mvp 78]

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

McGuire may not provide an onfield upgrade, but he's much cheaper than Vaz's 10M AAV right now and the cost savings was pushed to the pen where it was much needed. I don't think the dropoff will be all that noticeable.

Career wRC+
McGuire: 85
Vaz: 84

McGuire's behind the plate skills (framing, pop time) are better than Vaz too.

[mvp 78]

I would submit that the real mistake was going over the cap at the start of the season, and that's where the trade for JBJ comes into the conversation.

They screwed the pooch early on and it was extremely hard to unscrew.

[mvp 78]

Well said, and one can argue we were right in hindsight, only.

That makes no sense.

[Bellhorn04]

They screwed the pooch early on and it was extremely hard to unscrew.

Exactly.

[moonslav59]

1. Stop relitigating? No, it's fine to relitigate it until this year's team is actually constructed. There really isn't enough other meat on the bone to discuss right now.
2. Those who said. Yes, I was right AS USUAL. :cool:
3. Fault the team for not doing it. I guess? I see why they thought they should go for it, but at the time I thought that ship was sinking fast. FO has more information on their end, but it was an odd decision to stay over the cap to hurt your comp selections.

All along we said, get something for Nate and Bogey beyond just a comp pick, and then we end up with 2 picks after the 4th round rather than after the 2nd- further screwing the pooch.

[notin]

I think it remains to be seen if McGuire is an upgrade.

He was last year.

I wouldn’t mind if they got a catcher above him, and was disappointed William Contreras went so cheaply. I give up Rafaela in that scenario…

[moonslav59]

I would submit that the real mistake was going over the cap at the start of the season, and that's where the trade for JBJ comes into the conversation.

Yup, and I said at the time, the worst part was the money aspect, when we were looking at a very tight squeeze to stay under the line.

[moonslav59]

That makes no sense.

Umm.... had we made the playoffs, we'd have been called wrong.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

He was last year.

I wouldn’t mind if they got a catcher above him, and was disappointed William Contreras went so cheaply. I give up Rafaela in that scenario…

Will the Red Sox sign Roberto Perez or Austin Hedges? Former is going to be 34, four years older, but two-time GGer. Either will cost less than half of Vazquez.

Dumb me, still speculating on making moves, like it was the team I've followed for over half a century...

[Bellhorn04]

He was last year.

By which metric?

[mvp 78]

Umm.... had we made the playoffs, we'd have been called wrong.

They didn't and they weren't going to. If the goal is to build for the future, one meagre run at the playoffs wasn't worth the risk.

[mvp 78]

By which metric?

fWAR

[Bellhorn04]

They didn't and they weren't going to. If the goal is to build for the future, one meagre run at the playoffs wasn't worth the risk.

They said the goal was re-build while competing. It worked in 2021.

[mvp 78]

Will the Red Sox sign Roberto Perez or Austin Hedges? Former is going to be 34, four years older, but two-time GGer. Either will cost less than half of Vazquez.

Dumb me, still speculating on making moves, like it was the team I've followed for over half a century...

I heard there were no guys left to sign.

[notin]

Will the Red Sox sign Roberto Perez or Austin Hedges? Former is going to be 34, four years older, but two-time GGer. Either will cost less than half of Vazquez.

Dumb me, still speculating on making moves, like it was the team I've followed for over half a century...

The Sox could also try to work out deals for the players they lost in the Rule 5 draft, thus enabling the drafting teams to demote those players to the minors if they needed to.

For example, Washington left 25yo catching prospect Drew Millas unprotected.

And Philly left 24yo LHP Erik Miller unprotected.

Both don’t seem particularly enamored with these players as much as many scouts (most orgs put Miller in the Phillies top ten).

Washington does have a clear path for Ward, so they might be reluctant. Philly would be stupid not to make a deal that would allow them to keep Song, whose career to date consists of 17 IP in low A ball 4 years ago.

Those moves won’t make the Sox immediate contenders, but that doesn’t mean either is a bad move…

[mvp 78]

They said the goal was re-build while competing. It worked in 2021.

How many other teams have been able to do that?

[notin]

I heard there were no guys left to sign.

Hedges is all glove/no bat. Ditto Perez but he’s also 4 years older. After those two, Jorge Alfaro and Tucker Barnhart lead the list. At some point, we are no longer talking about upgrade over McGuire/Wong. Although that doesn’t mean the depth is a bad thing…

[Bellhorn04]

How many other teams have been able to do that?

I can't answer that, but if Bloom had made a few better moves for 2022 or we had less injuries they might have made the playoffs again.

[moonslav59]

Will the Red Sox sign Roberto Perez or Austin Hedges? Former is going to be 34, four years older, but two-time GGer. Either will cost less than half of Vazquez.

Dumb me, still speculating on making moves, like it was the team I've followed for over half a century...

Why not? It's better than wallowing in misery for a few more months.

Hey, we play 24 less games vs the AL East.

We are stacked with LH'd bats at a time when lefties will be given a huge boost due to recent rule changes.

We have 10-15 prospects or recent prospect call-ups looking to get a significant chance to shine in 2023. We don't need even half to shine to see a big impact.

We can't know for sure what will happen in 2024, but I firmly believe the odds are we will improve at...

1B
2B (assuming Story stays there)
3B
LF
CF
RF
DH
Closer
Set up man
Pen depth

Hopefully stay close to even...
C
SP4
SP5
SP depth after 5

Pretty clear decline...
SS
SP1
SP2
SP3

Maybe we can do something to lessen the blows at these 4 slots, but I'm doubtful we can move any, except maybe SP3 into the equal or plus column, but it doesn't look horrible to me- just disapointing.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Hedges is all glove/no bat. Ditto Perez but he’s also 4 years older. After those two, Jorge Alfaro and Tucker Barnhart lead the list. At some point, we are no longer talking about upgrade over McGuire/Wong. Although that doesn’t mean the depth is a bad thing…

D is all I'm considering from catchers now, with bigger, shorter bases and limits on pitchers keeping baserunners close. Veteran D can help a young, rebuilding staff, too.

[mvp 78]

I can't answer that, but if Bloom had made a few better moves for 2022 or we had less injuries they might have made the playoffs again.

The better moves would have been prior to the start of the season. The team they constructed didn't seem ready for primetime IMO. It was a team on short contracts that was just itching to be dealt.

[mvp 78]

Hedges is all glove/no bat. Ditto Perez but he’s also 4 years older. After those two, Jorge Alfaro and Tucker Barnhart lead the list. At some point, we are no longer talking about upgrade over McGuire/Wong. Although that doesn’t mean the depth is a bad thing…

I'm personally fine with the catching rotation they have now. Put the money elsewhere.

[moonslav59]

I can't answer that, but if Bloom had made a few better moves for 2022 or we had less injuries they might have made the playoffs again.

No doubt, especially the JBJ trade and Diekman signing, but he did add Wacha, Hill, Strahm and Refsnyder- later McGuire outplayed Vaz the last 2 months of '22. He added Schreiber in '21, but he came through in '22.

It was not really his moves and non moves made, last winter, that was the major cause or even a minor cause of the decline- it was more about vet declines and injuries.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

No doubt, especially the JBJ trade and Diekman signing, but he did add Wacha, Hill, Strahm and Refsnyder- later McGuire outplayed Vaz the last 2 months of '22. He added Schreiber in '21, but he came through in '22.

It was not really his moves and non moves made, last winter, that was the major cause or even a minor cause of the decline- it was more about vet declines and injuries.

It was just as much that a lot of his mound acquisitions were already prone to injury, Bradley was already in decline, and his non-moves left the rotation, bullpen and rightfield unacceptably incomplete.

[moonslav59]

It was just as much that a lot of his mound acquisitions were already prone to injury, Bradley was already in decline, and his non-moves left the rotation, bullpen and rightfield unacceptably incomplete.

We were all acting on the assumption we were going to reset, so when you look at what Bloom had to spend, for every non move we converted into a needed move, I assumed we had to delete one he made.

It's okay to say we could have spent Diekman's money elsewhere, and certainly the money gained by not adding JBJ's contract and just trading Renfroe for prospects or a min wage guy would have added enough to make a difference, but to me, still not enough to overcome the injuries and vet declines we saw. The 135 RBIS from Bogey + JD, alone, made it nearly impossible to win in 2022. Nobody foresaw that.

The Wacha, Hill, Strahm and Refsnyder additions would be hard to beat, even in hindsight signings.

The Story signing offered the most "what ifs" to Bloom's choices before 2022. I thought it was a good signing, then, and still do, so I can't say we coulda, shoulda on him.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

In his first year as a second baseman in Boston, Trevor Story was like Mark Bellhorn with the bat, Pokey Reese with the glove and wheels.

Combined, that's a pretty decent player... though, maybe not quite worth the biggest contract of the Bloom Era.

[moonslav59]

In his first year as a second baseman in Boston, Trevor Story was like Mark Bellhorn with the bat, Pokey Reese with the glove and wheels.

Combined, that's a pretty decent player... though, maybe not quite worth the biggest contract of the Bloom Era.

But now, that contract looks like a steal. It's half what Bogey got!

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

But now, that contract looks like a steal. It's half what Bogey got!

And as I've said before, Story for half the cost of Bogaerts may have been the main reason Bloom signed him.

[moonslav59]

And as I've said before, Story for half the cost of Bogaerts may have been the main reason Bloom signed him.

I doubt anyone foresaw it being half, but I'm pretty sure they liked him at $140M vs Bogey at $170m, at the time of the signing (same years.)

[sk7326]

good pickup for yanks though durability has been a major concern through his career

[mvp 78]

good pickup for yanks though durability has been a major concern through his career

Considerable risk!

[Bellhorn04]

Considerable risk!

Chaim and the spreadsheet gang have concluded that all starting pitchers are too risky, so we're good.

[mvp 78]

Chaim and the spreadsheet gang have concluded that all starting pitchers are too risky, so we're good.

I wasn't a fan of the ones at the top of the list this offseason, but there were a few others they should have gone after.

But what do I know? I've only been right about everything going back 7 years. :cool:

[moonslav59]

Chaim and the spreadsheet gang have concluded that all starting pitchers are too risky, so we're good.

zI think we add one more high risk picther.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

zI think we add one more high risk picther.

I can't even define that right now... high risk that we'd have to pay an entire contract that a player actually completes in Boston? high risk that we'd have to pay half the contract for the player to play for another team? high risk that the guy will melt down from constant media and fan attention, and escape New England in the wee hours of the night on a flight to neutral Switzerland?

[moonslav59]

I can't even define that right now... high risk that we'd have to pay an entire contract that a player actually completes in Boston? high risk that we'd have to pay half the contract for the player to play for another team? high risk that the guy will melt down from constant media and fan attention, and escape New England in the wee hours of the night on a flight to neutral Switzerland?

I think Kluber could handle the pressure, and may not be all that "high risk."

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

I think Kluber could handle the pressure, and may not be all that "high risk."

Why Kluber over Wacha? Kluber had 0.7 WAR last year; Wacha led the Sox staff at 3.3. In '23, Kluber will be 37, Wacha 31.

[a700hitter]

I think Kluber could handle the pressure, and may not be all that "high risk."
He’s a shell of what he was. He could handle the president, but he can’t handle the batters.

[Bellhorn04]

zI think we add one more high risk picther.

Rich Hill come on down...sometime in July.

[Bellhorn04]

I wasn't a fan of the ones at the top of the list this offseason, but there were a few others they should have gone after.

But what do I know? I've only been right about everything going back 7 years. :cool:

Now I'd like to see one of your positive predictions come true for a change. :cool:

[moonslav59]

Rich Hill come on down...sometime in July.

If we knew Sale and paxton would plan their vacations....errr...I mean IL stints for July, good move.

[a700hitter]

If we knew Sale and paxton would plan their vacations....errr...I mean IL stints for July, good move.
Buchholz always timed his DL for the entire second half of the season. We need more reliability like that.

[a700hitter]

Rich Hill come on down...sometime in July.
Would Hill want to come back to a team that might be a complete shit show by the All Star Break.

[mvp 78]

Now I'd like to see one of your positive predictions come true for a change. :cool:

Positive predictions for this season:

Yoshida will have a 775 OPS.
Barnes will be a competent middle reliever.
Whitlock will be a good 3rd starter.
Bello will continue to improve and will show that he's going to stick in the rotation long term.
Kiké will rebound from last season to be a 3 fWAR guy again.
Casas will hit 30 HR and play good enough defense at 1b.

[mvp 78]

Would Hill want to come back to a team that might be a complete shit show by the All Star Break.

He's close to retirement and lives in the area. It's convenient for him.

[Bellhorn04]

Would Hill want to come back to a team that might be a complete shit show by the All Star Break.

He might, because he said he wants to only pitch half a season.

But I'm just clutching at straws at this point.

[mvp 78]

Buchholz always timed his DL for the entire second half of the season. We need more reliability like that.

He's still available.

[Bellhorn04]

Positive predictions for this season:

Yoshida will have a 775 OPS.
Barnes will be a competent middle reliever.
Whitlock will be a good 3rd starter.
Bello will continue to improve and will show that he's going to stick in the rotation long term.
Kiké will rebound from last season to be a 3 fWAR guy again.
Casas will hit 30 HR and play good enough defense at 1b.

OK now we're talking. Your prescience is really about to be tested!

[Bellhorn04]

He's still available.

I just remembered I had a dream last night about Buchholz making a comeback with us this year. I'm serious.

[a700hitter]

Positive predictions for this season:

Yoshida will have a 775 OPS.
Barnes will be a competent middle reliever.
Whitlock will be a good 3rd starter.
Bello will continue to improve and will show that he's going to stick in the rotation long term.
Kiké will rebound from last season to be a 3 fWAR guy again.
Casas will hit 30 HR and play good enough defense at 1b.
I think there is a good chance that your batting average on these predictions might be .000.

[a700hitter]

I just remembered I had a dream last night about Buchholz making a comeback with us this year. I'm serious.
You need to get out more.

[mvp 78]

I just remembered I had a dream last night about Buchholz making a comeback with us this year. I'm serious.

Did you just buy some Bullfrog stock?

[mvp 78]

You need to get out more.

Knowing that his dreams are about that, maybe he needs to be confined to a home?