JBJ DFAed

[iortiz]

Bold!

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/08/red-sox-dfa-jackie-bradley-jr.html

[iortiz]

This just confirms what we all already knew. JBJ was a mistake since day 1.

[Old Red]

Bold!

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/08/red-sox-dfa-jackie-bradley-jr.html

Another Bloom gem. Bloom thinks getting prospects back as some do on here was a success. Not all minor leaguers are prospects. Lots of minor leaguers are just that minor leaguers, and that’s the bottom line.

[JDavis76]

Just another example that orlando is in over his head......

[iortiz]

Another Bloom gem. Bloom thinks getting prospects back as some do on here was a success. Not all minor leaguers are prospects. Lots of minor leaguers are just that minor leaguers, and that’s the bottom line.

If the genius idea was to shop those prospects via JBJ, it was very expensive unless Bloom is seeing something on them we do not. Who knows? Probably one of them ends up being the next Soto lol

[redsoxrules]

Finally! Should have never happened to begin with. The prospect they got for him may not even amount to anything.

[Old Red]

If the genius idea was to shop those prospects via JBJ, it was very expensive unless Bloom is seeing something on them we do not. Who knows? Probably one of them ends up being the next Soto lol

Like I said before that not all minor leaguers are prospects, and I think Bloom just likes to get as many as he can, and hopes one turns out to be something good.

[Elktonnick]

Like I said before that not all minor leaguers are prospects, and I think Bloom just likes to get as many as he can, and hopes one turns out to be something good.
Is this Bloom finally facing reality that getting JBJ in the first place wss a mistake?

[notin]

Is this Bloom finally facing reality that getting JBJ in the first place wss a mistake?

He gave him a shot and it didn’t work out. I am among the few that didn’t mind this deal, as it was done for defensive purposes as well as prospects.

As there was clearly no plan to hold him for next season, I’d rather see the GM admit this as opposed to clinging to a mistake. But the biggest downside is it leaves Duran with a stranglehold on CF until Kike returns…

[moonslav59]

We pay $8M for the 2023 buy out, although it doesnt count on the lux tax line.

[dannycater]

Bloom Doom.

[iortiz]

Like I said before that not all minor leaguers are prospects, and I think Bloom just likes to get as many as he can, and hopes one turns out to be something good.

The major harm was letting go Renfroe who has good enough defense and a hell of an arm BUT who can hit.

[Old Red]

Bloom Doom.

The Red Sox have been Bloomed again. The curse of the Bloom is alive, and well.

[Old Red]

The major harm was letting go Renfroe who has good enough defense and a hell of an arm BUT who can hit.

I agree, but some on here didn’t think Renfroe was good enough, or worth $6-7M even for a guy with 96 RBI. They were as wrong as Bloom was.

[dgalehouse]

Makes me sad. A lot of good memories of JBJ. That's life.

[dannycater]

We had Betts, Beni, Vasquez, then Refroe, Schwarber....and we turned it into average joe Verdugo (playoff Kiki 21, MIA 22), Cordero (one of the worst trades ever), gave away Vasquez hitting .282, get a DFA for Renfroe, and refuse to sign Schwarber, but go ga-ga over Story (injured goods) and then add over-the-hill Hosmer (Bloom's love interest) and platoon Pham. The pitching staff needs work and now we can prepare for Xander and Devers to be gone by 2023. Bloom's job is complete...turn the Sox into a bad version of a fake low budget team.

[dannycater]

In his prime, best defensive CF in Sox history. Lynn right up there, but JBJR covered incredible ground. It was sad to see him turn into a slower version who often had to play RF.

[mvp 78]

Bloom's deadline is now a B-.

[Old Red]

Makes me sad. A lot of good memories of JBJ. That's life.

Best defensive CF I’ve seen the Red Sox have. If only he could have hit 250.

[Old Red]

Bloom's deadline is now a B-.

What made it go up?

[dannycater]

His deadline is an F...because he didn't know what he was trying to accomplish. Dumping a .282 hitting catcher who is a big part of the clubhouse leadership was fine, as long as they were really in sell mode. But to get Tommy HitMa(m) Pham and an over-the-hill Hosmer is right up there with just whatever. That's Bloom Doom...whatever...B-? Jesus, it was a car-wreck.

[mvp 78]

His deadline is an F...because he didn't know what he was trying to accomplish. Dumping a .282 hitting catcher who is a big part of the clubhouse leadership was fine, as long as they were really in sell mode. But to get Tommy HitMa(m) Pham and an over-the-hill Hosmer is right up there with just whatever. That's Bloom Doom...whatever...B-? Jesus, it was a car-wreck.

What did they give up for Hosmer and Pham?

[dannycater]

Lot of people keep defending Bloom, but the 2021 team had a lot of things go our way. 2022 isn't all Bloom, but he set the tone by not retaining Schwarber (but then throwing big money to Story) and trading a very high return Renfroe.

[dannycater]

What did they give up for Hosmer and Pham?

Who cares...

[dannycater]

If Bloom was in another city, he never would have acquired Hosmer and Pham and he would have been in sell, sell...JD gone too.

[Old Red]

His deadline is an F...because he didn't know what he was trying to accomplish. Dumping a .282 hitting catcher who is a big part of the clubhouse leadership was fine, as long as they were really in sell mode. But to get Tommy HitMa(m) Pham and an over-the-hill Hosmer is right up there with just whatever. That's Bloom Doom...whatever...B-? Jesus, it was a car-wreck.

Being a leader in the clubhouse like Vaz, and Bogey doesn’t show up on one of their metric sheets, so they don’t give a dam.Now the players in that clubhouse have two ways to go. Be like Bloom, and don’t give a dam about the PS, or trying to win despite Bloom. Either way players, and fans alike are pissed.

[Old Red]

What did they give up for Hosmer and Pham?

Nothing, but moves should have made weeks ago for the OF, and 1B. How much more of Franchy, and CO should especially the paying fans be forced to watch?

[mvp 78]

Nothing, but moves should have made weeks ago for the OF, and 1B. How much more of Franchy, and CO should especially the paying fans be forced to watch?

Moves should have been made last offseason.

[mvp 78]

Who cares...

If you get an upgrade for free, how is it a trainwreck of a trade?

[Old Red]

Moves should have been made last offseason.

That we agree on.

[Elktonnick]

If you get an upgrade for free, how is it a trainwreck of a trade?
One of Lou Merloni's major criticisms of Bloom is he lacked a sense of urgency. Reportedly Bloom wanted to get Pham in February but did not make the move at that time.

[harmony]

The prospects who came in the Jackie Bradley Jr. trade were Alex Binelas, a 22-year-old corner infielder who this year has posted a wRC+ of 66 at Double A and 125 at High A, and David Hamilton, a 24-year-old infielder who this year has posted a wRC+ of 89 at Double A:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/alexander-binelas/sa3017044/stats?position=1B/3B

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/david-hamilton/sa3014434/stats?position=2B/SS

[moonslav59]

The prospects who came in the Jackie Bradley Jr. trade were Alex Binelas, a 22-year-old corner infielder who this year has posted a wRC+ of 66 at Double A and 125 at High A, and David Hamilton, a 24-year-old infielder who this year has posted a wRC+ of 89 at Double A:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/alexander-binelas/sa3017044/stats?position=1B/3B

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/david-hamilton/sa3014434/stats?position=2B/SS

I'm not as hopeful about the prospects, as I was before, but the trade is not over, until we know for sure.

I'd say the odds are less than 1 in 100, it turns out okay.

[mvp 78]

I'm not as hopeful, as I was before, but the trade is not over, until we know for sure.

I'd say the odds are less than 1 in 100, it turns out okay

At some point, you have to put a deadline on it and make a call.

I think it's safe to say that it's most likely a bad trade. Unless Binelas really turns things around next season, it's the worst most baffling trade Bloom has made.

[FredLynn]

We pay $8M for the 2023 buy out, although it doesnt count on the lux tax line.

Yeah, while Bradley laughs all the way to the bank. This deal was a mistake. Any deal obtaining Bradley would have been a mistake. He has been washed up for years. Maybe he can sell used cars.

[moonslav59]

At some point, you have to put a deadline on it and make a call.

I think it's safe to say that it's most likely a bad trade. Unless Binelas really turns things around next season, it's the worst most baffling trade Bloom has made.

Certainly saying less than 1 in 100 chance of the trade being just okay is making a call.

[iortiz]

Yeah, while Bradley laughs all the way to the bank. This deal was a mistake. Any deal obtaining Bradley would have been a mistake. He has been washed up for years. Maybe he can sell used cars.

It's incredible how bad players are paid by whatever reasoning behind. JBJ is a millionaire who can be a billionaire outside the States lol!

[dannycater]

If you get an upgrade for free, how is it a trainwreck of a trade?

Pham has a famous quote that Bloom probably respects. Upon signing with Reds, I believe his line was "all I care about are my numbers. I have to take care of me." good, perfect for the clubhouse.

[dannycater]

Panda Sandoval and Carl Crawford....BEFORE they signed with the Sox or even when I learned either were going to be Sox...the first thing I thought on both was bad fits, not going to like it in Boston, not going to like daily scrutiny and sure enough both were all-time busts. Sometimes, you got to know the landscape. Young kids who grow up in the system understand Boston and then learn to enjoy being a Sox...old veterans who have cushy situations in other lesser media cities, simply don't get it. Like I said, it doesn't matter, and who cares. Sox won 4 titles and that's all that matters now. Memories and Ortiz and Hall of Fame selections

[dannycater]

Bloom will get a free pass because ultimately the organization won a long time ago. He was brought in for business reasons, not for baseball. Give Dombrowski lot of credit in that he spent to win. And they did.

[vegasbob]

This confirms to me that Bloom shopped JBJr pretty hard through Tuesday's deadline but could not get any other team to pay off his salary plus option. So by DFA'ing Jackie now, they will see if there is any salvage value. The money is as good as spent, so a new team can get Jackie for the MLB minimum, maybe the Sox can wheedle out a 20th round draft choice in 2025.

[a700hitter]

Reacquiring Bradley is another Bloom move that made no sense. I don’t see it as implementing his management philosophy. JBJ wasn't worth a 2 year contract, so he let him walk, and then traded a 30HR guy to get him back to pay the second year of a contract that he had previously deemed to be an overpay, and he did that after JBJ put up an atrocious season below the Mendoza line. How does that further his management “philosophy”. Then there is the Barnes mid-season 2 year extension. That was a head scratcher. Now we have the 2022 deadline where he was neither a buyer or seller. He improved the MLB team, but didn’t address the most glaring need — pitching. And any improvement to the farm was very insignificant maybe it got worse if Groome pans out. I don’t see any cohesive strategy or philosophy from Bloom. Can anyone explain how these moves fit his philosophy?

[a700hitter]

This confirms to me that Bloom shopped JBJr pretty hard through Tuesday's deadline but could not get any other team to pay off his salary plus option. So by DFA'ing Jackie now, they will see if there is any salvage value. The money is as good as spent, so a new team can get Jackie for the MLB minimum, maybe the Sox can wheedle out a 20th round draft choice in 2025.No one wanted him. Couldn’t even get Gym equipment for him.

[mvp 78]

Bloom will get a free pass because ultimately the organization won a long time ago. He was brought in for business reasons, not for baseball. Give Dombrowski lot of credit in that he spent to win. And they did.

Theo - 2 WS
Ben - 1 WS
DD - 1 WS
Bloom - 0 WS

Ben and DD got the Sox over the hump. Bloom has yet to do it and chances are good that he won't. DD got them to back to back to back AL East titles. It was a great run. I wish he had re-signed Mookie instead of Sale/Eovaldi, but here we are.

[JDavis76]

Bloom's deadline is now a B-.

I want some of what you are smoking.....

[iortiz]

Reacquiring Bradley is another Bloom move that made no sense. I don’t see it as implementing his management philosophy. JBJ wasn't worth a 2 year contract, so he let him walk, and then traded a 30HR guy to get him back to pay the second year of a contract that he had previously deemed to be an overpay, and he did that after JBJ put up an atrocious season below the Mendoza line. How does that further his management “philosophy”. Then there is the Barnes mid-season 2 year extension. That was a head scratcher. Now we have the 2022 deadline where he was neither a buyer or seller. He improved the MLB team, but didn’t address the most glaring need — pitching. And any improvement to the farm was very insignificant maybe it got worse if Groome pans out. I don’t see any cohesive strategy or philosophy from Bloom. Can anyone explain how these moves fit his philosophy?
Bloom for whatever reason thought JBJ and Barnes were good moves. Barnes at least showed something he had never shown in 3 months but JBJ? That trade made no sense at all. Bloom is without a doubt on a very thin ice entering 2023 mostly since he will have flexibility in the books. If he fails agin, he will be very gone before the 2023 tradeline.

[mvp 78]

I want some of what you are smoking.....

Original Grade = C+
JBJ gets DFA'd is extra credit
New Grade = B-

[vegasbob]

Keep in mind that Hosmer and Pham are just older plug-ins for gaping holes in the lineup, not part of a sustainable competitive team for 2023-2025. These holes were identifiable during the winter '21-'22 but the CBA BS prevented more timely moves. If accurate, Bloom then let his lack of urgency defer any action. He thought Kike could play a season and that Dalbec had turned a corner, and Barnes might get his head straight. Oh and Chris Sale might have actually pitched at some point.

Not an apologist for Bloom, but the actual players did about all they could to mess up 2022.

[Bellhorn04]

Keep in mind that Hosmer and Pham are just older plug-ins for gaping holes in the lineup, not part of a sustainable competitive team for 2023-2025. These holes were identifiable during the winter '21-'22 but the CBA BS prevented more timely moves. If accurate, Bloom then let his lack of urgency defer any action. He thought Kike could play a season and that Dalbec had turned a corner, and Barnes might get his head straight. Oh and Chris Sale might have actually pitched at some point.

Not an apologist for Bloom, but the actual players did about all they could to mess up 2022.

The run of injuries was pretty crazy. I think it was on 3 consecutive days we found out Eovaldi, Wacha and Hill were all going on the IL. Then Sale.

Plus Kike, Story and Devers.

We were too thin to be able to withstand that many injuries.

[illinoisredsox]

Bloom for whatever reason thought JBJ and Barnes were good moves. Barnes at least showed something he had never shown in 3 months but JBJ? That trade made no sense at all. Bloom is without a doubt on a very thin ice entering 2023 mostly since he will have flexibility in the books. If he fails agin, he will be very gone before the 2023 tradeline.

JBJ as a 4th outfielder made some sense; pricey but I can see some logic there. The problem was they never had the 3rd OF, and once Kike went down, they were screwed.

Now I assume they somehow thought Cordero had figured things out, but he turned out to be JBJ lite; slightly better as a hitter but just as streaky and far worse defensively (and that was just his OF defense).

Bloom's error was in assuming players could move seamlessly from position like Tampa does. I'm guessing that Tampa has their guys playing everywhere in the minors so that they are able to move around. If you don't come up doing that, its a recipe for what we saw with Arroyo in the OF, Cordero at 1st, etc. I'll give credit to those players for saying, sure I'll try it, but it was a horrible plan.

[iortiz]

The run of injuries was pretty crazy. I think it was on 3 consecutive days we found out Eovaldi, Wacha and Hill were all going on the IL. Then Sale.

Plus Kike, Story and Devers.

We were too thin to be able to withstand that many injuries.
The only bright side of this (if any) is that we found encouraging arms in Josh Winckowski, Kutter Crawford and John Schreiber moving forward and finally DFAed JBJ and Robles. Jake Diekman is gone as well who was a bust for us. Also, now we know we can count on Rob Refsnyder moving forward. Also, Davis, Brasier and Ort have to go. I mean, this has been bittersweet season but should help to shape the future.

[JDavis76]

JBJ as a 4th outfielder made some sense; pricey but I can see some logic there. The problem was they never had the 3rd OF, and once Kike went down, they were screwed.

Now I assume they somehow thought Cordero had figured things out, but he turned out to be JBJ lite; slightly better as a hitter but just as streaky and far worse defensively (and that was just his OF defense).

Bloom's error was in assuming players could move seamlessly from position like Tampa does. I'm guessing that Tampa has their guys playing everywhere in the minors so that they are able to move around. If you don't come up doing that, its a recipe for what we saw with Arroyo in the OF, Cordero at 1st, etc. I'll give credit to those players for saying, sure I'll try it, but it was a horrible plan.

Trading a productive OF for him made zero sense.....

[JDavis76]

Original Grade = C+
JBJ gets DFA'd is extra credit
New Grade = B-

I think your original grade was overly generous....

[Old Red]

JBJ as a 4th outfielder made some sense; pricey but I can see some logic there. The problem was they never had the 3rd OF, and once Kike went down, they were screwed.

Now I assume they somehow thought Cordero had figured things out, but he turned out to be JBJ lite; slightly better as a hitter but just as streaky and far worse defensively (and that was just his OF defense).

Bloom's error was in assuming players could move seamlessly from position like Tampa does. I'm guessing that Tampa has their guys playing everywhere in the minors so that they are able to move around. If you don't come up doing that, its a recipe for what we saw with Arroyo in the OF, Cordero at 1st, etc. I'll give credit to those players for saying, sure I'll try it, but it was a horrible plan.

JBJ made sense for a 4th OF, but not for the money, and I never heard Bloom, or Cora say that was what the plan was. The players were not to blame for trying to play other positions, but Bloom took way to long to try, and fix things. 100 games was way to long a sample size.

[illinoisredsox]

I'm not as hopeful about the prospects, as I was before, but the trade is not over, until we know for sure.

I'd say the odds are less than 1 in 100, it turns out okay.

Far too early to make that call, especially with Binelas. He just turned 22 and is in his first full year of professional baseball (drafted in June 2021); he's played about 120 minor league games spread over 4 levels in just over a year.

[iortiz]

JBJ made sense for a 4th OF, but not for the money, and I never heard Bloom, or Cora say that was what the plan was. The players were not to blame for trying to play other positions, but Bloom took way to long to try, and fix things. 100 games was way to long a sample size.
The thing was putting Renfroe in the equation. Looking backwards the trade looks way more awful now, considering how both players have performed thus far.

[cukes]

Bloom for whatever reason thought JBJ and Barnes were good moves. Barnes at least showed something he had never shown in 3 months but JBJ? That trade made no sense at all. Bloom is without a doubt on a very thin ice entering 2023 mostly since he will have flexibility in the books. If he fails agin, he will be very gone before the 2023 tradeline.

I don't have patience to wait that long for failure, I give up on this clown show

[moonslav59]

Far too early to make that call, especially with Binelas. He just turned 22 and is in his first full year of professional baseball (drafted in June 2021); he's played about 120 minor league games spread over 4 levels in just over a year.

fair enough.

I’m sticking with 100:1.

[mvp 78]

@ChrisCotillo
Red Sox have released Jackie Bradley Jr., according to the team.

[JDavis76]

@ChrisCotillo
Red Sox have released Jackie Bradley Jr., according to the team.

....

[FredLynn]

Theo - 2 WS
Ben - 1 WS
DD - 1 WS
Bloom - 0 WS

Ben and DD got the Sox over the hump. Bloom has yet to do it and chances are good that he won't. DD got them to back to back to back AL East titles. It was a great run. I wish he had re-signed Mookie instead of Sale/Eovaldi, but here we are.

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

[illinoisredsox]

fair enough.

I’m sticking with 100:1.

Oh, that's probably not too far off, because the odds with any minor leaguer are pretty high.

The fact that he is struggling a bit at AA might be a good thing. It will reveal a lot about his makeup.

[mvp 78]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

That's one way to put it.

[a700hitter]

,
Keep in mind that Hosmer and Pham are just older plug-ins for gaping holes in the lineup, not part of a sustainable competitive team for 2023-2025. These holes were identifiable during the winter '21-'22 but the CBA BS prevented more timely moves. If accurate, Bloom then let his lack of urgency defer any action. He thought Kike could play a season and that Dalbec had turned a corner, and Barnes might get his head straight. Oh and Chris Sale might have actually pitched at some point.

Not an apologist for Bloom, but the actual players did about all they could to mess up 2022.The “actual players”? Would those include the reliable relief arms that Bloom did not acquire, the starting pitchers who were identified as TBA in our rotation, and the first baseman and RFer that he never acquired? If so, I agree. These were all known needs in the offseason and for the first 104 games of 2022.

[JDavis76]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

I see this posted on here quite often.

Are there any links I can read that show where henry stated this?

Thanks in advance.

[Elktonnick]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.
He knew what he was getting into. If you recall there was a lot of chatter among baseballwriters that several qualified candidates were reluctant to consider coming to Boston because of the way Henry handled DDs departure and the fact that Boston had run through so many other GMs and otherwise successful managers in such a relatively short period.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

No one wanted him. Couldn’t even get Gym equipment for him.

Pretty much puts JBJ in the company of JD.

[illinoisredsox]

JBJ has a better ERA than Connor Seabold and Darwinizon Hernandez

[a700hitter]

Pretty much puts JBJ in the company of JD.
Probably right. I don’t think too many of our players had much trade value.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

JBJ has a better ERA than Connor Seabold and Darwinizon Hernandez

Uh, so perhaps you're thinking the SOX made a mistake. Could JBJ be the next Ohtani, but can't hit?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Uh, so perhaps you're thinking the SOX made a mistake. Could JBJ be the next Ohtani, but can't hit?

Of course, that could describe 99% of all the MLB pitchers.

[vegasbob]

,The “actual players”? Would those include the reliable relief arms that Bloom did not acquire, the starting pitchers who were identified as TBA in our rotation, and the first baseman and RFer that he never acquired? If so, I agree. These were all known needs in the offseason and for the first 104 games of 2022.

No, the "actual players" were those who broke camp in April, crapped all over themselves, with a few exceptions, in April-May, then made an amazing run in June only to fall back into the wishing well in July, maybe to surface again in August, who knows.

Inconsistency from the FO to the field in 2022. You are right--- the needs were well known all winter while waiting on the CBA and they displayed themselves like bright shiny objects through many of those 104 games, half of which were won/half lost. Probably an achievement in itself given the lack of performance in the lower half of the lineup and the amazing list of significant IL time for key guys.

[Maxbialystock]

Another Bloom gem. Bloom thinks getting prospects back as some do on here was a success. Not all minor leaguers are prospects. Lots of minor leaguers are just that minor leaguers, and that’s the bottom line.

Interesting. I always thought that all major leaguers, even the best ones, came from the minor leagues. I also thought that the pursuit and accumulation of prospects was driven not only by a search for talent, but inexpensive talent at that.

We all remember DD's trades/purchases for prime pitching that made the 2018 wonder-season possible. The Sox team payroll was the highest in MLB that season. But we should also remember that Betts, Beni, Bogey, JBJ, Holt--5 of the 6 highest lineup WAR's for the 2018 Sox--had not yet reached free agency. I left out Devers, who played in 121 games, hit 21 dingers (3d most on the Sox), drove in 66 runs (4th most), etc because his combined WAR, including his weak defense, was just 0.0. That Sox team lead MLB in runs scored with 876 (2d best was 818), and OPS with .792 (2d best was .766)--a juggernaut that relied very heavily on players who were not simply bought from other teams once they'd reached free agency.

The stars of the Sox 2018 pitching staff, on the other hand, was basically bought by DD: Sale (WAR 6.9), Price (WAR 4.4), Porcello (WAR 3.1), and Kimbrel (WAR 2.3). Here we are in 2022 and we're still paying for Sale ($30M) and Price ($16M) who this year have contributed a combined WAR of +0.1 to the Sox campaign.

[illinoisredsox]

Uh, so perhaps you're thinking the SOX made a mistake. Could JBJ be the next Ohtani, but can't hit?

Nah, just attempting a little (probably very little) levity.

Plus, you have to admit, he's a pretty good hitting pitcher.

[Bellhorn04]

He knew what he was getting into. If you recall there was a lot of chatter among baseballwriters that several qualified candidates were reluctant to consider coming to Boston because of the way Henry handled DDs departure and the fact that Boston had run through so many other GMs and otherwise successful managers in such a relatively short period.

And that does seem credible.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Nah, just attempting a little (probably very little) levity.

Plus, you have to admit, he's a pretty good hitting pitcher.

In regards to that JBJ was almost as good a hitter as Porcello was.
Btw, your levity was much better than just little.

[Maxbialystock]

He knew what he was getting into. If you recall there was a lot of chatter among baseballwriters that several qualified candidates were reluctant to consider coming to Boston because of the way Henry handled DDs departure and the fact that Boston had run through so many other GMs and otherwise successful managers in such a relatively short period.

Meh. John Henry is far and away the best owner the Sox have ever had, so he had to be doing something right on hiring and firing.

About the managers. Grady Little should have been fired. No one disputes that today. Francona wasn't fired. His contract was not renewed after the 2011 season because the Sox completely disintegrated in September at the same time it was discovered that some of the starters were drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. While I understand why that happened, it's now obvious that replacing Francona with Bobby Valentine was ill-advised. Then came Farrell, who won the WS in his first season, 2013, but thereafter the Sox didn't look so hot, especially in the 2016 and 2017 postseasons. I give DD lots of credit for firing Farrell and hiring Alex Cora, who looks pretty good so far.

As for GM's, Epstein left for a sweetheart offer from the Cubs. Cherington may have been OK overall--many here have said so--but signing Sandoval and HanRam rankled--as did not keeping Lester. DD did what he was hired to do--spent like a drunken sailor to fix the pitching, which resulted in the best season the Sox ever had.

But I think JH decided that he preferred a different approach, and it is absolutely unarguable that the best system in MLB for finding and developing good (but not expensive) talent that can compete in the toughest division in MLB belongs to the Rays. No other team comes close in terms of salary cost per wins. Chaim Bloom was either the architect of that system or one of them.

It remains to be seen whether Chaim can adapt what he knows best to the very different situation of the Sox.

[Maxbialystock]

He gave him a shot and it didn’t work out. I am among the few that didn’t mind this deal, as it was done for defensive purposes as well as prospects.

As there was clearly no plan to hold him for next season, I’d rather see the GM admit this as opposed to clinging to a mistake. But the biggest downside is it leaves Duran with a stranglehold on CF until Kike returns…

Thanks for saying that.

[moonslav59]

To be fair to Bloom the owner has hobbled him by demanding to get the costs way down. Generally you need money to win-or a lot of luck.

True, but the JBJ deal was a chosen extra "hobble."

[oldtimer]

Moves should have been made last offseason.

Agreed. Should have gotten a first baseman who could morph into a DH, since JDM was not in the plans for 2023. We could have kept Renfroe or if letting him go we needed a solid outfielder. JBJ was a mistake. Mancini would have been a good move if he was available. He checked the first base, outfield and possible future DH boxes. Chock up the lack of moves to either incompetence or lack of resources. Lack of resources does not square with the JBJ deal though.

[Elktonnick]

Meh. John Henry is far and away the best owner the Sox have ever had, so he had to be doing something right on hiring and firing.

About the managers. Grady Little should have been fired. No one disputes that today. Francona wasn't fired. His contract was not renewed after the 2011 season because the Sox completely disintegrated in September at the same time it was discovered that some of the starters were drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. While I understand why that happened, it's now obvious that replacing Francona with Bobby Valentine was ill-advised. Then came Farrell, who won the WS in his first season, 2013, but thereafter the Sox didn't look so hot, especially in the 2016 and 2017 postseasons. I give DD lots of credit for firing Farrell and hiring Alex Cora, who looks pretty good so far.

As for GM's, Epstein left for a sweetheart offer from the Cubs. Cherington may have been OK overall--many here have said so--but signing Sandoval and HanRam rankled--as did not keeping Lester. DD did what he was hired to do--spent like a drunken sailor to fix the pitching, which resulted in the best season the Sox ever had.

But I think JH decided that he preferred a different approach, and it is absolutely unarguable that the best system in MLB for finding and developing good (but not expensive) talent that can compete in the toughest division in MLB belongs to the Rays. No other team comes close in terms of salary cost per wins. Chaim Bloom was either the architect of that system or one of them.

It remains to be seen whether Chaim can adapt what he knows best to the very different situation of the Sox.

I can not generally disagree with anything you wrote except to as it relates to Henry's non existent interpersonal skills.

Otherwise what you wrote is not in any way at variance with what I wrote.
While it may be technically true that Henry did not fire Franconia the way the Red Sox handled his leaving left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Franconia still resents the way it went down.
The fact is after DDs departure Gammons , Tom Verducci, John Heyman et al were all over the MLB network and elsewhere talking about the fact that the way Henry let DD go and the fact that Boston has gone through so many successful GMs and managers in such a short time meant that there was a great deal of reluctance in the industry to work for Henry. Even Henry's employee Dan Shaughnessey was critical of the way DDs departure was handled calling it an embarrassment for the club.

[FredLynn]

True, but the JBJ deal was a chosen extra "hobble."

That was dumb for sure. But it wasn’t by itself the last nail in the coffin. There were a lot of mistakes starting with getting Bradley. Not addressing the problems at 1B and OF promptly. Henry’s edict to get costs down, Cora losing control of the team as evidenced by the brain dead baseball they are playing for months….etc

[Old Red]

Agreed. Should have gotten a first baseman who could morph into a DH, since JDM was not in the plans for 2023. We could have kept Renfroe or if letting him go we needed a solid outfielder. JBJ was a mistake. Mancini would have been a good move if he was available. He checked the first base, outfield and possible future DH boxes. Chock up the lack of moves to either incompetence or lack of resources. Lack of resources does not square with the JBJ deal though.

Bingo.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Just watched Gallo strike out for the Dodgers. Surprising the Yankems could trade that POS and the SOX couldn't trade JD or JBJ.

[Elktonnick]

Just watched Gallo strike out for the Dodgers. Surprising the Yankems could trade that POS and the SOX couldn't trade JD or JBJ.

The word was the Sox were asking two top tier prospects for JDM.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

The word was the Sox were asking two top tier prospects for JDM.

Maybe Bloom should have just asked for two prospects, regardless of tier.

[moonslav59]

Agreed. Should have gotten a first baseman who could morph into a DH, since JDM was not in the plans for 2023. We could have kept Renfroe or if letting him go we needed a solid outfielder. JBJ was a mistake. Mancini would have been a good move if he was available. He checked the first base, outfield and possible future DH boxes. Chock up the lack of moves to either incompetence or lack of resources. Lack of resources does not square with the JBJ deal though.

I thought 1B was addressed in the winter. Dalbec and Shaw looked decent and Casas was expected to be ready early, if needed.

Now, once the middle of May and June rolled around, how easy was it to acquire a decent 1Bman?

How long a leash should Dalbec have been given, after seein g what happened in 2021?

[FredLynn]

The word was the Sox were asking two top tier prospects for JDM.

I heard they were asking for two little league prospects and got no takers.

[a700hitter]

No, the "actual players" were those who broke camp in April, crapped all over themselves, with a few exceptions, in April-May, then made an amazing run in June only to fall back into the wishing well in July, maybe to surface again in August, who knows.

Inconsistency from the FO to the field in 2022. You are right--- the needs were well known all winter while waiting on the CBA and they displayed themselves like bright shiny objects through many of those 104 games, half of which were won/half lost. Probably an achievement in itself given the lack of performance in the lower half of the lineup and the amazing list of significant IL time for key guys.
Those would be the inadequate players that he brought north from camp like Dalbec and Franchy and numerous pitchers in the pen and the rotation who don’t belong on any major league roster, and whose fault was it for bringing north such inadequate players.

[Elktonnick]

I heard they were asking for two little league prospects and got no takers.
No little leaguers wanted to play for Bloom is the way I heard it.

[moonslav59]

I heard they were asking for two little league prospects and got no takers.

Did we offer to pay some or most of his contract?

[sk7326]

Too bad. Bradley won't be making the Red Sox HoF, but he has more ALCS MVPs than most people on earth. He was a terrific outfielder who provided JUST enough offense - usually through about a month worth of tantalizing hot streaks a season - to be a solid starting CF.

But the bat died and got mutilated beyond any sort of utility and this is what you get.

[moonslav59]

Those would be the inadequate players that he brought north from camp like Dalbec and Franchy and numerous pitchers in the pen and the rotation who don’t belong on any major league roster, and whose fault was it for bringing north such inadequate players.

I'm fine with anyone complaining about Bloom waiting too long to find a 1Bman, and even rare May/early June deals do get done from time to time, but I really think the winter/spring plan to have Dalbec and Shaw start the year at 1B with a ML ready and top prospect like Casas waiting in the wings was not a flawed plan. My guess is most GMs would not have touched 1B with so many other pressing holes to be filled over the winter.

No doubt, Dalbec's record of extreme droughts and hot streaks were concerning, but IMO, he did seem to be improving on D, last year and came on very strong the final 2-3 months of the season. He also had a decent first year, although the sample was small.

With 6-8 gaping holes at other positions, and a limited winter spending budget, what GM looks to replace a player who posted these numbers in his first 156 games (545 PAS)? Some might have expected improvement possible.

.244 33 94 (.819 OPS)

Yes, the 195 K's are frightening, and a close eye and possible short leash would be understandable, but the guy started off slowly, last year, too, and Cora's patience paid off in spades.

BTW, maybe some remember his hot streak being short, but his cold streak was shorter.

.595 first 45 games (173 PAs)
.709 middle 45 games (145 PAs)
1.114 last 41 games (139 PAs)

.684 first 66 games (242 PAs)
.914 last 67 games (215 PAs)

Cherry-picking sample sizes, I know, but still...
.916 his last 280 PAs
.847 his last 324 PAs
.805 his last 404 PAs

The kid deserved a look... a long look in 2022.

Travis Shaw had shown serious decline since 2021, but he did look pretty good, back with the Sox, in a tiny 48 PA sample size.

The kicker was Casas starting out slowly and then getting hurt.

I get the criticism about waiting too long to make a move, but I don't think a move should have been made in early May or maybe even early June or late June, but that was when Casas went on the IL.

Pitching depth and RF were and are still open season, IMO.

[moonslav59]

Too bad. Bradley won't be making the Red Sox HoF, but he has more ALCS MVPs than most people on earth. He was a terrific outfielder who provided JUST enough offense - usually through about a month worth of tantalizing hot streaks a season - to be a solid starting CF.

But the bat died and got mutilated beyond any sort of utility and this is what you get.

I'll always remember JBJ fondly. I don't blame him for signing a bloated deal and being put in the line-up long past his expiration date.

I'll never accuse him of not trying hard.

Great D- always.

[Oscars]

A brilliant fielder who I will always remember fondly, particularly for his ALCS contribution in 2018.

[vegasbob]

Those would be the inadequate players that he brought north from camp like Dalbec and Franchy and numerous pitchers in the pen and the rotation who don’t belong on any major league roster, and whose fault was it for bringing north such inadequate players.

Well that would be the Bloomin' Onion wouldn't it. Let's just hope that this 2/3rds season, clubhouse mea culpa meeting and Trade Deadline mini-moves mark the lowpoint of the current Sox FO. Better days and rosters must surely be ahead

[moonslav59]

Well that would be the Bloomin' Onion wouldn't it. Let's just hope that this 2/3rds season, clubhouse mea culpa meeting and Trade Deadline mini-moves mark the lowpoint of the current Sox FO. Better days and rosters must surely be ahead

2020 was the low point. Not even close.

Okay, if not having Cora in 2020 means it wasn't this FO, then it was the killing by the Yanks that was the low point- not a few minor trades made at the deadline. (IMO)

[Old Red]

Bloom supposedly according to some on here didn’t have many options in the players he got back in the Mookie deal, so I take it that JBJ must have been the only option in the Renfroe deal? Maybe a different GM would have better options.

[sk7326]

Well that would be the Bloomin' Onion wouldn't it. Let's just hope that this 2/3rds season, clubhouse mea culpa meeting and Trade Deadline mini-moves mark the lowpoint of the current Sox FO. Better days and rosters must surely be ahead

I think this is a little dramatic. More than anything though, there are real questions about exactly "What are We Trying to Accomplish Here" as an organization which is very hard to suss right now.

[sk7326]

Bloom supposedly according to some on here didn’t have many options in the players he got back in the Mookie deal, so I take it that JBJ must have been the only option in the Renfroe deal? Maybe a different GM would have better options.

I think the options were very small on the Mookie deal particularly once the team decided that moving Price was a key part of it. The trade was good considering it was "The David Price Salary Dump featuring Mookie Betts". But they did not really handle the Betts as a trade chip particularly well relative to the massive haul the Nats got for a great but inferior player. That said, there is an extra year of control with Soto which is very important. It is hard not to have a tear roll down the cheek when you realize that the team dealt Mookie Betts in exchange for precisely zero All-Star upside.

[moonslav59]

When a GM has several conflicting priorities that have changed from 2020 to 2021 and again to 2022, as well as winter spending budgets that ranged from negative going into 2020, to peanuts going into 2021 and then a sudden pivot going into 2022, possible a late winter pivot, at that, it's hard to blame the GM for seeming to not have a clear plan.

I do think there have been some clear top priorities that have been consistent:

1. Build the farm- in both quantity and quality
2. Build up the 40 man roster depth to minimize the amount of gaping holes each season
3. Make very few long term commitments (one to date, and even Story's deal is not close to what we gave Price)
4. Keep the budget under the tax line for the first 2 years and maybe limit how much we go over in year 3 (2022)
5. Try to stay competitive, or at least create the perception we will be competitive, so fans buy season tickets and sign up for the cable packages.

(I'm probably missing some.)

Sometimes, but not always, #5 might conflict with the others.

[moonslav59]

I think the options were very small on the Mookie deal particularly once the team decided that moving Price was a key part of it. The trade was good considering it was "The David Price Salary Dump featuring Mookie Betts". But they did not really handle the Betts as a trade chip particularly well relative to the massive haul the Nats got for a great but inferior player. That said, there is an extra year of control with Soto which is very important. It is hard not to have a tear roll down the cheek when you realize that the team dealt Mookie Betts in exchange for precisely zero All-Star upside.

Extra year and a third, which includes 3 playoff cycles to 1.

Had we kept Betts, how could we cut the budget in an equal way? Who takes Price, alone? Who do we trade to make up for the Betts last arb year cost? How good would the team be had we chose trading other top players or including young players with Price, so we could dump his salary?

[Elktonnick]

When a GM has several conflicting priorities that have changed from 2020 to 2021 and again to 2022, as well as winter spending budgets that ranged from negative going into 2020, to peanuts going into 2021 and then a sudden pivot going into 2022, possible a late winter pivot, at that, it's hard to blame the GM for seeming to not have a clear plan.

I do think there have been some clear top priorities that have been consistent:

1. Build the farm- in both quantity and quality
2. Build up the 40 man roster depth to minimize the amount of gaping holes each season
3. Make very few long term commitments (one to date, and even Story's deal is not close to what we gave Price)
4. Keep the budget under the tax line for the first 2 years and maybe limit how much we go over in year 3 (2022)
5. Try to stay competitive, or at least create the perception we will be competitive, so fans buy season tickets and sign up for the cable packages.

(I'm probably missing some.)

Sometimes, but not always, #5 might conflict with the others.

Sounds like the priorities most senior executives earning 7 figure salaries have. That is why they get paid the big bucks.

[sk7326]

Extra year and a third, which includes 3 playoff cycles to 1.

Had we kept Betts, how could we cut the budget in an equal way? Who takes Price, alone? Who do we trade to make up for the Betts last arb year cost? How good would the team be had we chose trading other top players or including young players with Price, so we could dump his salary?


I think given their budgetary priorities (priorities of their choosing), the baseball ops did a good job with Betts trade.

I am also happy to question the premise of the former to a degree - and the 2019 Sox were in a slightly tougher position to deal Betts and offer that extra control. But as of this second - the trade can be seen as Betts for Verdugo and the start of Trevor Story's post-prime which is quite the sad trombone noise.

[Northern Star]

but the trade is not over, until we know for sure.

OK, Yogi.

[Larry Cook]

Gamecocks rule!

I will miss Bradley’s defense!

[moonslav59]

Sounds like the priorities most senior executives earning 7 figure salaries have. That is why they get paid the big bucks.

No disagreement.

Now that Bloom is being allowed to spend, and the farm building is about 3 years in the making, we should start seeing results.

I think we saw higher than expected results, last year, and less than expected, this year, so far.

Let's see what the roster looks like in 2023. To me, that's when we will truly know just who Bloom is and what his philosophy is, assuming he can spend near the tax line.

[sk7326]

No disagreement.

Now that Bloom is being allowed to spend, and the farm building is about 3 years in the making, we should start seeing results.

I think we saw higher than expected results, last year, and less than expected, this year, so far.

Let's see what the roster looks like in 2023. To me, that's when we will truly know just who Bloom is and what his philosophy is, assuming he can spend near the tax line.

We will see what happens - right now the only star in the system is Mayer and he is very very far away. But there is more pitching in the organization than in years, though again the #2 starter or above sorts are still wanting.

I do think we see some of the his philosophy at work in the amateur choices. The club is counting on being able to teach getting into one's power - Yorke and Romero are both middle infielders with strong hit tools who did not really show much power. Amd it does make sense. The Dodgers (of course the development staff built from Tampa) have had a lot of success reshaping players swings to get more lift.

[iortiz]

No disagreement.

Now that Bloom is being allowed to spend, and the farm building is about 3 years in the making, we should start seeing results.

I think we saw higher than expected results, last year, and less than expected, this year, so far.

Let's see what the roster looks like in 2023. To me, that's when we will truly know just who Bloom is and what his philosophy is, assuming he can spend near the tax line.

Exactly. Eye to eye here.

[Deja Doh]

JBJ is a 0.228 career hitter with an OBP of 0.307. He's been a below average player forever. Why Bloom picked him up again is insane.

But it's not just JBJ, Franchy Cordero is a 0.220 career hitter with an OBP of 0.288. And somehow it gets even worse with Jaylin Davis, a career 0.182 hitter, with a 0.261 OBP (why/how is he on our team?). Travis Shaw? Rob Refsnyder? Jonathan Araúz? Terrible.

[moonslav59]

We will see what happens - right now the only star in the system is Mayer and he is very very far away. But there is more pitching in the organization than in years, though again the #2 starter or above sorts are still wanting.

I do think we see some of the his philosophy at work in the amateur choices. The club is counting on being able to teach getting into one's power - Yorke and Romero are both middle infielders with strong hit tools who did not really show much power. Amd it does make sense. The Dodgers (of course the development staff built from Tampa) have had a lot of success reshaping players swings to get more lift.

I really like Rafaela and some others like Kavadas may surprise.

It does not look like we have any likely #1's or #2's in our current system, but we do have a lot of pitchers to hope 1 can rise to that level.

Wink (.562 OPS Against in minors), Crawford & Seabold (.538) and others may have #3 or #4 as their ceiling, but I have hopes that one of the following guys can improve to a good possibility of becoming a #2:

Bello (118 K-34 BB in 88 IP/ .561 OPS Against)
Mata (47K-21 BB in 36 IP/ .589)
Walter (75 K-7 BB in 58 IP/ .585)
Murphy (110 K- 45 BB in 104 IP/.595)
Gonzalez (89 K- 46 BB in 70 IP/ .677)
Ward (25K- 5BB in 18 IP/ .470)
Drohan (123 K-37 BB in 96 IP/ .711)

[moonslav59]

JBJ is a 0.228 career hitter with an OBP of 0.307. He's been a below average player forever. Why Bloom picked him up again is insane.


He had a 101 OPS+ over 6 seasons (2015-2020). That's more than half his career.

Thats average hitting with stellar D.

.247 BA
.331 OBP
.769 OPS

Decent base-runner, too.

They obviously were fooled by his short season success in 2020.

[vjcsmoke]

Bold!

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/08/red-sox-dfa-jackie-bradley-jr.html

JBJ one of Bloom's worst BLUNDER trades has now been kicked off the roster! Good riddance!

[Jasonbay44]

JBJ is obviously washed up now, but I always liked the guy. He played hard, was fantastic defender and overall solid player for most of his Red Sox career. His 2018 ALCS performance should never be forgotten, im not sure Sox win that series without those clutch hits.


It was time to move on and I think his days of being every day player are over, but I wish him the best.

[mvp 78]

JBJ one of Bloom's worst BLUNDER trades has now been kicked off the roster! Good riddance!

JBJ was the worst move Bloom has made.

[Bellhorn04]

JBJ was the worst move Bloom has made.

It's a blip, IMHO.

[mvp 78]

It's a blip, IMHO.

It made them go over the lux tax this season for some ungodly reason.

[Bellhorn04]

It made them go over the lux tax this season for some ungodly reason.

I have a suspicion they WANTED to go over this year, for PR purposes.

If they kept Renfroe the net reduction to the payroll tax purposes would have been about 4.5 mill.

[moonslav59]

It made them go over the lux tax this season for some ungodly reason.

That was the leading cause of my itchy scalp at trade time.

I get wanting to improve RF defense in Fenway. I get hoping JBJ's offense maybe bouncing back. (It has over his whole career.) I get thinking the two prospects could even out any disparity between Renfroe and JBJ. But, the money disparity, on a restricted winter budget, made no sense.

I know the $8M buyout for 2023 does not count on the tax line, but it's still $8M of Henry's money!

[moonslav59]

I have a suspicion they WANTED to go over this year, for PR purposes.

If they kept Renfroe the net reduction to the payroll tax purposes would have been about 4.5 mill.

True, but had they not traded Renfroe for JBJ, they could have traded him for a min salary or prospects, but they'd then need to fill the slot JBJ filled, and at the time, Refsnyder was not considered a viable option, even as a platoon option.

The weird thing is, we could have started the year with Duran in LF, Kike in CF and Dugo in RF, but in April, Dugo was not good enough to play RF. Suddenly, it's okay.

[oldtimer]

That was the leading cause of my itchy scalp at trade time.

I get wanting to improve RF defense in Fenway. I get hoping JBJ's offense maybe bouncing back. (It has over his whole career.) I get thinking the two prospects could even out any disparity between Renfroe and JBJ. But, the money disparity, on a restricted winter budget, made no sense.

I know the $8M buyout for 2023 does not count on the tax line, but it's still $8M of Henry's money!

I'm with you on this one for all the reasons you gave. JBJ's addition was an absolute head scratcher and looked like a moment of insanity for Bloom. Let's hope we see positive signs of a plan going forward.

[oldtimer]

True, but had they not traded Renfroe for JBJ, they could have traded him for a min salary or prospects, but they'd then need to fill the slot JBJ filled, and at the time, Refsnyder was not considered a viable option, even as a platoon option.

The weird thing is, we could have started the year with Duran in LF, Kike in CF and Dugo in RF, but in April, Dugo was not good enough to play RF. Suddenly, it's okay.

The season is essentially over at this point and whether Dugo plays in right or not won't change the trajectory of the team. Time to get a look at prospects who may be good enough to fill a ML position in 2023. Other than Casas, I don't see any prospect who can fill a field position. That is not a good testament to the capability of our farm system.

[moonslav59]

I'm with you on this one for all the reasons you gave. JBJ's addition was an absolute head scratcher and looked like a moment of insanity for Bloom. Let's hope we see positive signs of a plan going forward.

I caught a lot of flack for scratching my head, at the time of the trade.

I'm hopeful Binelas and or Hamilton will help soften the blow this trade made on the 2022 team, but at least it's not a long lasting hit.

One side of the Beni trade ends when this season is over. We know what Beni did for KC and will have done with the Yanks to finish out the season. The other half of the trade is far from complete, yet many label it as a clear blunder.

First of all, I doubt Beni would hjave helped enough to get us any farther than we did since his departure. Secondly, the money saved on tphe trade allowed Bloom to sign his OF replacement- Renfroe (as Dugo was moved to LF.) Once can argue, this alone, balanced the trade.

What Wink, Cordero and the other 3 prospects give us is still pending.

The Betts/Price trade was a salary dump and forced on Bloom. Judging him or blaming him for trading Betts, without adding Price to the equation and the context of Bloom needing to cut salary is missing the full picture of the situation.

There is plenty of other things to bash Bloom for, but IMO, not the Beni & Betts trades, yet.

[moonslav59]

The season is essentially over at this point and whether Dugo plays in right or not won't change the trajectory of the team. Time to get a look at prospects who may be good enough to fill a ML position in 2023. Other than Casas, I don't see any prospect who can fill a field position. That is not a good testament to the capability of our farm system.

Casas can field a position and probably very well. If you meant, right now, maybe not just yet, but he's close to being fully re-habbed.

Duran & Refsnyder are already filling FT roles. Well, Ref is on the IL, but when he comes back, we could have 3, if we want to call Casas up. I agree that Downs, Davis, Sanchez and Almonte aren't capable of filling any role FT, but maybe Wong or RHern can fill the back-up catcher rule before the year is over (DFA Plawecki?)

[notin]

True, but had they not traded Renfroe for JBJ, they could have traded him for a min salary or prospects, but they'd then need to fill the slot JBJ filled, and at the time, Refsnyder was not considered a viable option, even as a platoon option.

The weird thing is, we could have started the year with Duran in LF, Kike in CF and Dugo in RF, but in April, Dugo was not good enough to play RF. Suddenly, it's okay.


Was it that Verdugo wasn’t good enough or JBJ was just so much better?

[Old Red]

Was it that Verdugo wasn’t good enough or JBJ was just so much better?

The problem was Duran wasn’t good enough, and I haven’t heard anyone else say that Dugy can’t play RF. He’s no Dewey, or Mookie out there, but I think more than adequate.

[moonslav59]

Was it that Verdugo wasn’t good enough or JBJ was just so much better?

To not have played Dugo in RF for even just an inning in 2022, until JBJ's DFA, makes me think they wanted to avoid playing him there at all costs. When they called up Duran, the played Duran in CF rather than Dugo, which further strengtherned my view that they felt Dugo was an only LF OF'er. Of course, it's just my opinion, and he's playing RF, now, so clearly they think it's okay. It just seemed all so sudden, to me.

We were dying for a CF/RF'er, when Kike went down. If Dugo was okay in RF, why not go with ...

vs RHP
LF Duran
CF JBJ
RF Dugo

vs LHP
LF Dugo
CF JBJ (or Duran)
RF Refsnyder

How many times were we thinking about trying something different but having no in-system choices. Well, we had one.

[Old Red]

To not have played Dugo in RF for even just an inning in 2022, until JBJ's DFA, makes me think they wanted to avoid playing him there at all costs. When they called up Duran, the played Duran in CF rather than Dugo, which further strengtherned my view that they felt Dugo was an only LF OF'er. Of course, it's just my opinion, and he's playing RF, now, so clearly they think it's okay. It just seemed all so sudden, to me.

We were dying for a CF/RF'er, when Kike went down. If Dugo was okay in RF, why not go with ...

vs RHP
LF Duran
CF JBJ
RF Dugo

vs LHP
LF Dugo
CF JBJ (or Duran)
RF Refsnyder

How many times were we thinking about trying something different but having no in-system choices. Well, we had one.

Not having played Dugy in RF I believe all had to do with JBJ being that much better, or even the REf Man for that matter. Of course that doesn’t explain what to hell Arroyo was doing out there, or Franchy. You have been on this Dugy is only a LF, but I haven’t heard anyone from the Red Sox say that. Duran is a bad OF no matter where you play him.

[Elktonnick]

Not having played Dugy in RF I believe all had to do with JBJ being that much better, or even the REf Man for that matter. Of course that doesn’t explain what to hell Arroyo was doing out there, or Franchy. You have been on this Dugy is only a LF, but I haven’t heard anyone from the Red Sox say that. Duran is a bad OF no matter where you play him.
Watching Bloom playing guys all over the place, outfielders playing the infield and infielders playing the outfield etc. One can not escape the conclusion that Bloom thinks that ballplayers are interchangeable. It is no wonder that with so many guys out of position they play like a bunch little leaguers. It can not be good for morale or their self confidence.

[Old Red]

Watching Bloom playing guys all over the place, outfielders playing the infield and infielders playing the outfield etc. One can not escape the conclusion that Bloom thinks that ballplayers are interchangeable. It is no wonder that with so many guys out of position they play like a bunch little leaguers. It can not be good for morale or their self confidence.
Good point, and I made the Little League comment several times, on misjudgment of balls hit into the air, and balls thrown around the IF.

[notin]

Watching Bloom playing guys all over the place, outfielders playing the infield and infielders playing the outfield etc. One can not escape the conclusion that Bloom thinks that ballplayers are interchangeable. It is no wonder that with so many guys out of position they play like a bunch little leaguers. It can not be good for morale or their self confidence.

I’ve asked before - is that Bloom or Cora? At some point, putting a lineup together is Cora’s job.

The big one to me was Arroyo in RF. Why? Who called that? Just play JBJ and forego the offense to get the D…

[notin]

The problem was Duran wasn’t good enough, and I haven’t heard anyone else say that Dugy can’t play RF. He’s no Dewey, or Mookie out there, but I think more than adequate.

If he could be Dewey or Betts, that would be great! But just because he can’t be either doesn’t mean he has no business there.

Frankly I’m confused why people think he’s so bad at covering a RF that the Sox once let Tom Brunansky defend. Is it just that Betts spoiled us?

[notin]

To not have played Dugo in RF for even just an inning in 2022, until JBJ's DFA, makes me think they wanted to avoid playing him there at all costs. When they called up Duran, the played Duran in CF rather than Dugo, which further strengtherned my view that they felt Dugo was an only LF OF'er. Of course, it's just my opinion, and he's playing RF, now, so clearly they think it's okay. It just seemed all so sudden, to me.

We were dying for a CF/RF'er, when Kike went down. If Dugo was okay in RF, why not go with ...

vs RHP
LF Duran
CF JBJ
RF Dugo

vs LHP
LF Dugo
CF JBJ (or Duran)
RF Refsnyder

How many times were we thinking about trying something different but having no in-system choices. Well, we had one.

I didn’t interpret it the same at all.

The whole reason they acquired Bradley was for defense. So once Story was on board, they had the gloves in RF and CF and let Verdugo handle LF.

Duran was called up to replace CF. I’m sure some teams have re-arranged their OF for an injury replacement, but it’s more common not to. They simply brought up Duran for Kike and let Verdugo do his job. Just like how they never slide over Story when Bogaerts is out…

[Elktonnick]

I’ve asked before - is that Bloom or Cora? At some point, putting a lineup together is Cora’s job.

The big one to me was Arroyo in RF. Why? Who called that? Just play JBJ and forego the offense to get the D…
There has been a great deal of chatter coming out of Boston since the beginning of the year that Cora has less discretion on the lineup than in years past. The analytics and match ups play a huge role. But it can not be lost on anyone that Bloom has particularly signed players to play out of position. Hence Duran in Center, Franchy at 1st Arroyo everywhere.
The FUBAR that has become the daily lineup machinations seems to give credence to the idea that Cora is not in absolute control of the lineup.

[Old Red]

If he could be Dewey or Betts, that would be great! But just because he can’t be either doesn’t mean he has no business there.

Frankly I’m confused why people think he’s so bad at covering a RF that the Sox once let Tom Brunansky defend. Is it just that Betts spoiled us?

With this we agree.

[dgalehouse]

Where they play in the outfield is not the big problem. The main problem has been the lack of offense they have provided.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

If he could be Dewey or Betts, that would be great! But just because he can’t be either doesn’t mean he has no business there.

Frankly I’m confused why people think he’s so bad at covering a RF that the Sox once let Tom Brunansky defend. Is it just that Betts spoiled us?

I know Moon and I both like Verdugo in RF in 2020, where he was at least as good as Jackson I-swear-his-name-was-Clint Frazier. Somebody voted for Dugo for AL MVP that year, too.

[Old Red]

Where they play in the outfield is not the big problem. The main problem has been the lack of offense they have provided.

Kike, and JBJ starting the season couldn’t swing a bat between them.

[moonslav59]

I know Moon and I both like Verdugo in RF in 2020, where he was at least as good as Jackson I-swear-his-name-was-Clint Frazier. Somebody voted for Dugo for AL MVP that year, too.

When we signed Renfroe to replace Beni, I expected Dugo in RF and Renfroe in LF. I was surprised to see them flipped. When I realized the great arm Renfroe had, it made some sense, but what was lost by Renfroe's subpar defense in every other area of defense? Obviously, Bloom & Cora thought his defense brought down his overall worth to the point where they felt the need to trade him.

I've never said I felt Dugo was a left-field only OF'er. (If I did, I did not mean it that way.) I said the Sox are treating him like that. To me, playing Duran in CF, instead of Dugo, solidified my opinion on how the Sox viewed Dugo's D away from LF.

Now that we traded for our 3rd LF-ONLY OF'er, Dugo is given the green light to play RF. I'm puzzled by that choice. I'm not against Dugo playing RF- just puzzled.

[moonslav59]

I didn’t interpret it the same at all.

The whole reason they acquired Bradley was for defense. So once Story was on board, they had the gloves in RF and CF and let Verdugo handle LF.

Duran was called up to replace CF. I’m sure some teams have re-arranged their OF for an injury replacement, but it’s more common not to. They simply brought up Duran for Kike and let Verdugo do his job. Just like how they never slide over Story when Bogaerts is out…

They started benching JBJ, mostly vs LH'd pitchers. Not once, even as a late inning switch, did they play Dugo in RF. Not one inning.

In the 107 games JBJ was with the Sox, this year he started 76 games here:

59 GS in CF
17 GS in RF
31 on the bench

I get how Kike was here for some of these games, and the righty Refsnyder was doing well in RF and JBJ played some CF, but really? At no time vs a RH'd starter after Kike was hurt, could we have tried Dugo in RF, JBJ in CF and Duran in RF?

When Kike was healthy, could we never have tried Kike in CF and Dugo in RF with Duran or Cordero in LF? (No, we played Cordero in RF over Dugo?)

[Old Red]

They started benching JBJ, mostly vs LH'd pitchers. Not once, even as a late inning switch, did they play Dugo in RF. Not one inning.

In the 107 games JBJ was with the Sox, this year he started 76 games here:

59 GS in CF
17 GS in RF
31 on the bench

I get how Kike was here for some of these games, and the righty Refsnyder was doing well in RF and JBJ played some CF, but really? At no time vs a RH'd starter after Kike was hurt, could we have tried Dugo in RF, JBJ in CF and Duran in RF?

When Kike was healthy, could we never have tried Kike in CF and Dugo in RF with Duran or Cordero in LF? (No, we played Cordero in RF over Dugo?)



I think you are just over analyzing this, and they just made Dugy the full time LF, and didn’t want to move him, and not , because he couldn’t play CF, or RF. It’s not that big a deal to anyone else.

[vjcsmoke]

There has been a great deal of chatter coming out of Boston since the beginning of the year that Cora has less discretion on the lineup than in years past. The analytics and match ups play a huge role. But it can not be lost on anyone that Bloom has particularly signed players to play out of position. Hence Duran in Center, Franchy at 1st Arroyo everywhere.
The FUBAR that has become the daily lineup machinations seems to give credence to the idea that Cora is not in absolute control of the lineup.

Wow if Bloom is dictating lineups and where Cora can play his guys, he really needs to get the hell out of the kitchen and let the manager do his job!

[notin]

They started benching JBJ, mostly vs LH'd pitchers. Not once, even as a late inning switch, did they play Dugo in RF. Not one inning.

In the 107 games JBJ was with the Sox, this year he started 76 games here:

59 GS in CF
17 GS in RF
31 on the bench

I get how Kike was here for some of these games, and the righty Refsnyder was doing well in RF and JBJ played some CF, but really? At no time vs a RH'd starter after Kike was hurt, could we have tried Dugo in RF, JBJ in CF and Duran in RF?

When Kike was healthy, could we never have tried Kike in CF and Dugo in RF with Duran or Cordero in LF? (No, we played Cordero in RF over Dugo?)



Yes because most managers don’t bounce starters from position to position like that. How often did Betts shift to CF when Bradley was hurt?

And Cordero only started 11 games. I don’t think it was a statement about Verdugo as much as a desire to just keep him in his routine…

[vjcsmoke]

Alex Cora talks JBJ release, "Where we’re at roster-wise, we had to go in a different direction." Translation: we had to get the black hole out of our lineup even it it meant getting absolutely nothing back in return. Bravo Chaim Bloom! What a brilliant trade to give away a 30 homerun hitter for a guy you had to later DFA in the same season!

Article: https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/08/boston-red-sox-release-jackie-bradley-jr-alex-cora-says-where-were-at-roster-wise-we-had-to-go-in-a-different-direction.html

[notin]

Wow if Bloom is dictating lineups and where Cora can play his guys, he really needs to get the hell out of the kitchen and let the manager do his job!

It’s a safe bet that isn’t happening.

[moonslav59]

Yes because most managers don’t bounce starters from position to position like that. How often did Betts shift to CF when Bradley was hurt?

And Cordero only started 11 games. I don’t think it was a statement about Verdugo as much as a desire to just keep him in his routine…

Could be. I readily admit my theory may be wrong, but it seemed like we were desperate to find the right mix in an OF that has been the worst in MLB.

We all have heard and then seen the horror show Duran is on defense, and yet, we chose to play him away from LF rather than Verdugo. To me, JBJ is a great defensive CF'er, so why not (v RHPs)...

LF Duran
CF JBJ
RF Verdugo

Did Duran look comfy in CF?

Is JBJ better in RF vs CF?

I'm just wondering why they never tried it, even once. I came to the conclusion they don't like Dugo anywhere but LF, but now, it seems okay. Yes, JBj is gone and Pham is here, so it's much easier, now, but still...

[moonslav59]

Alex Cora talks JBJ release, "Where we’re at roster-wise, we had to go in a different direction." Translation: we had to get the black hole out of our lineup even it it meant getting absolutely nothing back in return. Bravo Chaim Bloom! What a brilliant trade to give away a 30 homerun hitter for a guy you had to later DFA in the same season!

Article: https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/08/boston-red-sox-release-jackie-bradley-jr-alex-cora-says-where-were-at-roster-wise-we-had-to-go-in-a-different-direction.html

Binelas and Hamilton might end up being better than absolutely nothing, but the trade still sucked and still sucks.

[Old Red]

JBJ to the Blue Jays. I would say I hope he comes back to haunt his old club, but I don’t think the Red Sox will be relevant to haunt. Good luck to JBJ.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

Binelas and Hamilton might end up being better than absolutely nothing, but the trade still sucked and still sucks.

Many of us who didn’t immediately hate the trade did so under the assumption the Sox were going to sign Suzuki, or some other outfielder. We thought JBJ would be the 4th outfielder, but we were wrong.

[Old Red]

Many of us who didn’t immediately hate the trade did so under the assumption the Sox were going to sign Suzuki, or some other outfielder. We thought JBJ would be the 4th outfielder, but we were wrong.

That may have been the assumption to some on here, but I don’t think that was Bloom’s plan at all.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

That may have been the assumption to some on here, but I don’t think that was Bloom’s plan at all.

Sox made an offer on Suzuki, I guess they didn’t care enough to have a plan B

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

That may have been the assumption to some on here, but I don’t think that was Bloom’s plan at all.

Disagree -- I remember Bloom specifically say before the season they still needed an outfield bat. Assuming he wasn't lying, he either didn't want to pay the cost or wasn't allowed to...

... and that either/or basically encapsulates half the bickering on this board the past four months.

However, if your go-to is always "We're Number Six!" -- be aware there's a lot of post-deadline media complaints about Bloom deciding to stay over the luxury tax threshold with a last-place team.

[A Red Sox fan named Hugh]

Suzuki isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire either. He would have been an upgrade out there right now, and I think he could take a 2nd year leap. We probably would have had to pay more than 85/5 to get him here. Regardless, JBJ starting was apparently an insanely weak plan B.

[moonslav59]

Bloom knew all along, he had an ace in his pocket: Refsnyder.

What are you guys complaining about?

LOL!

[Old Red]

Disagree -- I remember Bloom specifically say before the season they still needed an outfield bat. Assuming he wasn't lying, he either didn't want to pay the cost or wasn't allowed to...

... and that either/or basically encapsulates half the bickering on this board the past four months.

However, if your go-to is always "We're Number Six!" -- be aware there's a lot of post-deadline media complaints about Bloom deciding to stay over the luxury tax threshold with a last-place team.

Yes Bloom did say they needed another OF bat, but he did not say as a starter. Paying JBJ, and his contract prospects, or not just didn’t make any financial sense to be a 4th OF.

[dgalehouse]

JBJ signed with the Blue Jays.

[JDavis76]

JBJ signed with the Blue Jays.

That's yesterday's news....

[notin]

Disagree -- I remember Bloom specifically say before the season they still needed an outfield bat. Assuming he wasn't lying, he either didn't want to pay the cost or wasn't allowed to...

... and that either/or basically encapsulates half the bickering on this board the past four months.

However, if your go-to is always "We're Number Six!" -- be aware there's a lot of post-deadline media complaints about Bloom deciding to stay over the luxury tax threshold with a last-place team.

Possible the OF bat was needed because they assumed Kike in the infield?

They didn’t bring in JBJ to be a bench player, and they already had Verdugo. So once the got Story, Kike became that de facto outfield bat…

[notin]

Yes Bloom did say they needed another OF bat, but he did not say as a starter. Paying JBJ, and his contract prospects, or not just didn’t make any financial sense to be a 4th OF.

They brought in JBJ for his glove, not to sit. So then we’re back to Refsnyder, who was actually pretty good as an OF bat

[redsoxrules]

JBJ already making mistakes in his first game as a Jay's. On defense at that.