Giving up 28 today = We are sellers

[Deja Doh]

I imagine that half of the team will be (or are) on the block. The way we've played over the past week and half the writing is on the wall.

The FA's (JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, etc.) will be on the move.

Here's to 2024 or 2025.

[Noles_1335]

Blow it up…. And send Bloom kicking rocks too! What an embarrassment of a team right now!

[Fan_since_Boggs]

They should be sellers.

Problem is, is Bloom smart enough to figure that out or is he desperate enough to be a buyer at the deadline? Can we trust Bloom to make the right choice?

For the believers in Bloom: when does John Henry begin to think about replacing him? Bloom will survive this year no matter what, I realize that, but let's say, for hypothetical purposes, that the Red Sox aren't any good next year. Should that open the door for John Henry to bring in a new GM after 2023? I'm just wondering how much rope Bloom has.

I don't support getting rid of Bloom, not yet anyway, but I'm concerned.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Fangraphs playoff odds: 33%

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I read this somewhere -- funny but true: "Red Sox are only a 1B, RF, CF, LF, closer, and a couple of starters away from making a run."

[jacksonianmarch]

I do so enjoy watching you eat your words and realize the Sox suck this year

[harmony]

I imagine that half of the team will be (or are) on the block. The way we've played over the past week and half the writing is on the wall.

The FA's (JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, etc.) will be on the move.

Here's to 2024 or 2025.
https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/trades/trade-93607/

[vjcsmoke]

I imagine that half of the team will be (or are) on the block. The way we've played over the past week and half the writing is on the wall.

The FA's (JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, etc.) will be on the move.

Here's to 2024 or 2025.

Gave up 28 runs. Most runs given up by the Red Sox since 1950. WTF? This team is a JOKE! Bloom is a JOKE!! Even if we sell, do you have any confidence this Bloom guy won't make all the wrong choices? This is the guy who paid 140m/6 years for a 29 yo middleinfielder "slugging" for a grand total of .713 OPS with a .221 Batting average in Fenway Park. And traded a 30 HR bat for the JOKE of a player known as JBJ. OOF. How much more damage will Bloom do to this team?

[jad]

This team has 3 All-Stars and they all have been productive. So the idea is to get rid of them to make room for more Bloom guys? Like the middle-relievers that have allowed 50+ runs over the past three games? I like Cora a lot--the only one who didn't throw his team-mates and coaches under the bus during the sign-stealing scandal. But he'll obviously have to be the one to take the fall for this (along with, say, the guys referred to in sentence 1).

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

They should be sellers.

Problem is, is Bloom smart enough to figure that out or is he desperate enough to be a buyer at the deadline? Can we trust Bloom to make the right choice?

For the believers in Bloom: when does John Henry begin to think about replacing him? Bloom will survive this year no matter what, I realize that, but let's say, for hypothetical purposes, that the Red Sox aren't any good next year. Should that open the door for John Henry to bring in a new GM after 2023? I'm just wondering how much rope Bloom has.

I don't support getting rid of Bloom, not yet anyway, but I'm concerned.

Why would we trust Bloom to buy at the deadline when he wouldn't buy at the liveline? The team was very much alive preseason through June when he wouldn't add a closer, an outfielder who could hit, and a big league first baseman.

[Yaz Fan Since '67]

I was looking forward to the reaction after that game. Last time I checked it still counts as one loss, no different than 4-3. Sure if FEELS different but let's not get carried away just yet.

[Elktonnick]

Gave up 28 runs. Most runs given up by the Red Sox since 1950. WTF? This team is a JOKE! Bloom is a JOKE!! Even if we sell, do you have any confidence this Bloom guy won't make all the wrong choices? This is the guy who paid 140m/6 years for a 29 yo middleinfielder "slugging" for a grand total of .713 OPS with a .221 Batting average in Fenway Park. And traded a 30 HR bat for the JOKE of a player known as JBJ. OOF. How much more damage will Bloom do to this team?
Answer: A lot!

[jacksonianmarch]

Bloom was brought in to rebuild the Sox. His 2020 team got you Mayer. 2021 was a surprise. He was supposed to be able to tear down the team, but he had to add to it because they were winning at the deadline. This year, he’s subtracted a few and added some guys on the cheap while securing his long term SS. He’s a master trader. I know his deal for Renfroe is getting skewered, but the two kids in the minors are the real reason he dealt Renfroe. The Betts trade was centered on a top prospect and a now OFer. Both have taken downturns, so the trade looks rough now. As a Yankee fan, it pains me to see what Bloom can do once Henry gives the all out sell signal. Bloom will rebuild and will turn the team into a perennial contender if the Sox faithful don’t get him fired first

[Bellhorn04]

I was looking forward to the reaction after that game. Last time I checked it still counts as one loss, no different than 4-3. Sure if FEELS different but let's not get carried away just yet.

It is only one game, but Eovaldi getting smoked, on top of Sale's new injury and Pivetta's sudden bad stretch, and Wacha and Hill still being out, doesn't leave much room for hope.

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom was brought in to rebuild the Sox. His 2020 team got you Mayer. 2021 was a surprise. He was supposed to be able to tear down the team, but he had to add to it because they were winning at the deadline.

It's pure unfounded speculation on your part that Bloom wanted to tear down in 2021 rather than compete.

[moonslav59]

It's pure unfounded speculation on your part that Bloom wanted to tear down in 2021 rather than compete.

He might have expected it, before the year started.

[Bellhorn04]

He might have expected it, before the year started.

Still speculation. He made acquisitions that helped the team-Pivetta, Whitlock, Kike, Renfroe etc. (not to mention Cora). Is the suggestion that he didn't actually want these guys to succeed?

I think that's rubbish.

[JDavis76]

It is only one game, but Eovaldi getting smoked, on top of Sale's new injury and Pivetta's sudden bad stretch, and Wacha and Hill still being out, doesn't leave much room for hope.

Sudden bad stretch?!!

He's just reverted back to who he has always been, a terrible pitcher....

[Bellhorn04]

Sudden bad stretch?!!

He's just reverted back to who he has always been, a terrible pitcher....

Well, he did shut you up for a while at least.

[JDavis76]

Well, he did shut you up for a while at least.

Not really, I have always maintained that he sucks. moonslop tried to say otherwise.

[Bellhorn04]

Not really, I have always maintained that he sucks. moonslop tried to say otherwise.

He was great for 11 games from May 7 to June 29, 74 innings, 1.95 ERA.

Just saying "he sucks" is stupid.

[JDavis76]

He was great for 11 games from May 7 to June 29, 74 innings, 1.95 ERA.

Just saying "he sucks" is stupid.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Denying that he is what his career says he is is stupid.....

[moonslav59]

I don't think I have ever used one game to radically change my mind about anything pertaining to baseball, but yesterday tested that limit.

[Bellhorn04]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Denying that he is what his career says he is is stupid.....


I don't give a shit what he did with the Phillies.

With the Red Sox he's been a solid back end starter, and he's cheap.

[Maxbialystock]

It is only one game, but Eovaldi getting smoked, on top of Sale's new injury and Pivetta's sudden bad stretch, and Wacha and Hill still being out, doesn't leave much room for hope.

That's what I kept saying--as recently as yesterday before the game. I think the bullpen is OK--despite last night--but the rotation is a disaster, and it is hurt further by the weak defense, especially in the outfield and @ first base. While the hitting this season is down, it's better than the pitching, defense, and baserunning--but last night the 7th, 8th, and 9th hitters all had OPS's below .600.

I keep remembering that series 2 weeks ago at Tampa where the Rays swept 4 straight. That the scores were close was misleading because to my eyes one team was professional in all aspects of the game, and the other, our Sox, was not. And guess what? Their presumptive star, 21 year old shortstop Wander Franco who recently signed a big contract (but nowhere near what Mookie got and Bogaerts and Devers are demanding), didn't play in any of those four games.



On top of that, a really nice crowd, almost 37,000, at Fenway last night. The display by this Sox team was disgraceful.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think I have ever used one game to radically change my mind about anything pertaining to baseball, but yesterday tested that limit.

I know what you're saying.

[Bellhorn04]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Denying that he is what his career says he is is stupid.....


Clay Holmes has a 4.01 career ERA, it was 5.57 with the Pirates.

Does he suck too?

[Maxbialystock]

I don't think I have ever used one game to radically change my mind about anything pertaining to baseball, but yesterday tested that limit.

It should not have tested your limit because it only confirmed what we saw at Yankee Stadium before the ASG break and the four straight losses at Tampa before that. None of those four losses were debacles, but every game seemed to me to demonstrate how professional the Rays are--even without their SS Wander Franco--in every aspect of the game and how the Red Sox are not.

[moonslav59]

Clay Holmes has a 4.01 career ERA, it was 5.57 with the Pirates.

Does he suck too?

Any moment, he should revert to what he was.

No player has ever improved over his previous norm.

[moonslav59]

It should not have tested your limit because it only confirmed what we saw at Yankee Stadium before the ASG break and the four straight losses at Tampa before that. None of those four losses were debacles, but every game seemed to me to demonstrate how professional the Rays are--even without their SS Wander Franco--in every aspect of the game and how the Red Sox are not.

I was already leaning towards an all out sell-off, so maybe "radical" was a poor choice of words, but yesterday's game moved the needle more than any other single game has ever done, since maybe that shellacking we took from the Yanks, decades ago.

[JDavis76]

Clay Holmes has a 4.01 career ERA, it was 5.57 with the Pirates.

Does he suck too?

Last I checked 4.01 is far better than 5.06.......

[Maxbialystock]

My Red Sox player of the year candidate, the embodiment of what I think they have accomplished this season, is the guy with the big necklace, Alex Verdugo!! To me nothing represents the Sox unprofessionalism this year more than that necklace.

Let me hasten to add that I also think there are plenty of players on this team who are in fact trying hard. There also some who hit the ball well or pitch the ball well--and a few who are not bad on defense. But, when I compare them to, say, the Tampa Bay Rays, I see a significance difference in overall professionalism.

And what astounds me about that comparison to the Rays is that the latter play in the worst ballpark in MLB which rightfully discourages fans from coming to games played by a very watchable home team.

These Sox are so spoiled it's sickening, and the biggest brat is Verdugo. Vazquez with his insane baserunning ain't far behind.

[moonslav59]

Clay Holmes has a 4.01 career ERA, it was 5.57 with the Pirates.

Does he suck too?

Holmes:
5.57 with PIT
1.39 with NYY (a 4.18 disparity)

Pivetta:
5.50 with PHI
4.42 with BOS (a 1.08 disparity)

Who is fooling who?

[moonslav59]

My Red Sox player of the year candidate, the embodiment of what I think they have accomplished this season, is the guy with the big necklace, Alex Verdugo!! To me nothing represents the Sox unprofessionalism this year more than that necklace.

Let me hasten to add that I also think there are plenty of players on this team who are in fact trying hard. There also some who hit the ball well or pitch the ball well--and a few who are not bad on defense. But, when I compare them to, say, the Tampa Bay Rays, I see a significance difference in overall professionalism.

And what astounds me about that comparison to the Rays is that the latter play in the worst ballpark in MLB which rightfully discourages fans from coming to games played by a very watchable home team.

These Sox are so spoiled it's sickening, and the biggest brat is Verdugo. Vazquez with his insane baserunning ain't far behind.

Verdugo's misplay on that ball hit to the wall, yesterday, reminded me of Mike Greenwell. I used to think trading Duran makes some sense. Now, I might prefer we trade Dugo. One of these Left Field only players should not be here, next year.

Keepers:

Everyday
Devers (Forevers! PLEASE!)
Story SS/2B (kinda have to)
Refsnyder (we have no very good OF'ers)
Borderline: Duran

Pitchers
Whitlock (obviously)
Houck (despite the vax debacle)
Pivetta (as a 4/5 starter)
Winckowski (near borderline)
Schreiber (could still have just been a flash)
Bello (on promise, only)
Crawford (near borderline)
Sale (because we have to)
Borderline: None

This list does not include prospects.

[Bellhorn04]

Last I checked 4.01 is far better than 5.06.......

Relievers generally have lower ERA's. Have to explain everything, I guess.

Anyway, as far as you're concerned, Holmes is obviously a blind squirrel.

[Maxbialystock]

Verdugo's misplay on that ball hit to the wall, yesterday, reminded me of Mike Greenwell. I used to think trading Duran makes some sense. Now, I might prefer we trade Dugo. One of these Left Field only players should not be here, next year.

Keepers:

Everyday
Devers (Forevers! PLEASE!)
Story SS/2B (kinda have to)
Refsnyder (we have no very good OF'ers)
Borderline: Duran

Pitchers
Whitlock (obviously)
Houck (despite the vax debacle)
Pivetta (as a 4/5 starter)
Winckowski (near borderline)
Schreiber (could still have just been a flash)
Bello (on promise, only)
Crawford (near borderline)
Sale (because we have to)
Borderline: None

This list does not include prospects.

My gosh!!! I thought I was the only one who noticed the misplay. It also bugs me that he invariably has some kind of deliberate decision-making process when he hits the ball, so much so that he never, ever immediately starts running hard to 1b. I'm guessing some coach somewhere told him he only has so many sprints in him and to conserve his energy. Even on grounders, he first calculates whether it's got a chance of getting through. If not, it's "brakes on, chaps!" With Dugo, sauntering is in, busting your butt ain't.

[moonslav59]

Relievers generally have lower ERA's. Have to explain everything, I guess.

Anyway, as far as you're concerned, Holmes is obviously a blind squirrel.

Note the ERAs before changing teams:

5.57 Holmes
5.50 Pivetta

I'm so happy to know Holmes will revert back to sucking at any moment!

[Bellhorn04]

Note the ERAs before changing teams:

5.57 Holmes
5.50 Pivetta

I'm so happy to know Holmes will revert back to sucking at any moment!



True, it's kind of a relief! :cool:

[Maxbialystock]

Verdugo's misplay on that ball hit to the wall, yesterday, reminded me of Mike Greenwell. I used to think trading Duran makes some sense. Now, I might prefer we trade Dugo. One of these Left Field only players should not be here, next year.

Keepers:

Everyday
Devers (Forevers! PLEASE!)
Story SS/2B (kinda have to)
Refsnyder (we have no very good OF'ers)
Borderline: Duran

Pitchers
Whitlock (obviously)
Houck (despite the vax debacle)
Pivetta (as a 4/5 starter)
Winckowski (near borderline)
Schreiber (could still have just been a flash)
Bello (on promise, only)
Crawford (near borderline)
Sale (because we have to)
Borderline: None

This list does not include prospects.

Fascinating list. I see you left Kike off, so I looked up his salary--$8M. Last year his WAR was 4.9, so he was a bargain. WAR of 3.5 in 2018 also not bad. His career OPS is .737. He was great last year, but he turns 31 next month, and that hip has to be worrisome--to him and to Chaim Bloom.

[jad]

Say you're playing for a MLB team. You're having a good year, one of the top hitters in the league; you're a starter in the All-Star game, along with two other team-mates, both also hitting over .300; everyone outside the immediate organization says you are someone to build around. One of the best players in the league. Yet you have no serious contract offer and everyone within the organization or around it (owners, fans, commentators) talk of nothing but the trade deadline and how you, along with one or both of the other two, need to be traded. Why would you or ANYONE want to play for an organization like that?

[Bellhorn04]

Say you're playing for a MLB team. You're having a good year, one of the top hitters in the league; you're a starter in the All-Star game, along with two other team-mates, both also hitting over .300; everyone outside the immediate organization says you are someone to build around. One of the best players in the league. Yet you have no serious contract offer and everyone within the organization or around it (owners, fans, commentators) talk of nothing but the trade deadline and how you, along with one or both of the other two, need to be traded. Why would you or ANYONE want to play for an organization like that?

Look, Xander signed a 6 year contract with an opt out after Year 3. He's a big boy, he knew the opt out could make him a lot more money. He didn't put that in the contract out of the kindness of his heart. It has worked out well for him.

No need to break out the crying towels.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

My Red Sox player of the year candidate, the embodiment of what I think they have accomplished this season, is the guy with the big necklace, Alex Verdugo!! To me nothing represents the Sox unprofessionalism this year more than that necklace.

Let me hasten to add that I also think there are plenty of players on this team who are in fact trying hard. There also some who hit the ball well or pitch the ball well--and a few who are not bad on defense. But, when I compare them to, say, the Tampa Bay Rays, I see a significance difference in overall professionalism.

And what astounds me about that comparison to the Rays is that the latter play in the worst ballpark in MLB which rightfully discourages fans from coming to games played by a very watchable home team.

These Sox are so spoiled it's sickening, and the biggest brat is Verdugo. Vazquez with his insane baserunning ain't far behind.

This 'professionalism' you continually repeat may have something to do with Kevin Cash. IMHO, the best manager in the AL.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

My Red Sox player of the year candidate, the embodiment of what I think they have accomplished this season, is the guy with the big necklace, Alex Verdugo!! To me nothing represents the Sox unprofessionalism this year more than that necklace.

Let me hasten to add that I also think there are plenty of players on this team who are in fact trying hard. There also some who hit the ball well or pitch the ball well--and a few who are not bad on defense. But, when I compare them to, say, the Tampa Bay Rays, I see a significance difference in overall professionalism.

And what astounds me about that comparison to the Rays is that the latter play in the worst ballpark in MLB which rightfully discourages fans from coming to games played by a very watchable home team.

These Sox are so spoiled it's sickening, and the biggest brat is Verdugo. Vazquez with his insane baserunning ain't far behind.

The 3 & 4 batters in the SOX line-up have a combined total of 16 HR's and 75 RBI and yet you go after Dugo and VAZ. How convenient.

[Bellhorn04]

The 3 & 4 batters in the SOX line-up have a combined total of 16 HR's and 75 RBI and yet you go after Dugo and VAZ. How convenient.

But he was talking about professionalism, not production.

[notin]

Why would we trust Bloom to buy at the deadline when he wouldn't buy at the liveline? The team was very much alive preseason through June when he wouldn't add a closer, an outfielder who could hit, and a big league first baseman.

Add all those things from who?

And it has been pointed out, we had all of them to start the season.

Players do struggle and have bad seasons, but that doesn’t mean all the other teams will step up and make other options available.

[notin]

Look, Xander signed a 6 year contract with an opt out after Year 3. He's a big boy, he knew the opt out could make him a lot more money. He didn't put that in the contract out of the kindness of his heart. It has worked out well for him.

No need to break out the crying towels.

Not to mention we really don’t know the reality of the current contract situation…

[notin]

Last I checked 4.01 is far better than 5.06.......

Last I checked this isn’t an answer to the question you were asked…

[JDavis76]

Relievers generally have lower ERA's. Have to explain everything, I guess.

No, better pitchers generally have lower ERA's. Have to explain everything, I guess.

Anyway, as far as you're concerned, Holmes is obviously a blind squirrel.

That remains to be seen......

[cp176]

Look, Xander signed a 6 year contract with an opt out after Year 3. He's a big boy, he knew the opt out could make him a lot more money. He didn't put that in the contract out of the kindness of his heart. It has worked out well for him.

No need to break out the crying towels.

I have heard the word professionalism mentioned here once or twice. Obviously it means different things to different people. The first offer made by ownership (if it is to be believed) to Devers smacked of unprofessionalism by ownership in my estimation. I do not think that they will wind up keeping him. That being the case, many lifelong fans are going to be deeply disappointed.

[JDavis76]

Last I checked this isn’t an answer to the question you were asked…

A 4.01 ERA is mediocre, a 5.06 sucks.

There, does that answer the question?

[illinoisredsox]

He was great for 11 games from May 7 to June 29, 74 innings, 1.95 ERA.

Just saying "he sucks" is stupid.

Consider the source and why are you engaging him?

[JDavis76]

Note the ERAs before changing teams:

5.57 Holmes
5.50 Pivetta

I'm so happy to know Holmes will revert back to sucking at any moment!



I'm so happy that you have run up the white flag and are now working on your 2023 Unrealistic thread....

[Hitch]

Look, Xander signed a 6 year contract with an opt out after Year 3. He's a big boy, he knew the opt out could make him a lot more money. He didn't put that in the contract out of the kindness of his heart. It has worked out well for him.

No need to break out the crying towels.

While I agree with you, Jad's point isn't without merit.

We didn't keep Mookie. We're not going to re-sign Bogey. If Devers is let go too, it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I was (and am) all for resetting the way things are done after the money we've wasted on terrible contracts this last decade, but man, we're losing some huge talent along this journey.

I like Story, but will never be happy that his signing meant X was a goner.

[notin]

A 4.01 ERA is mediocre, a 5.06 sucks.

There, does that answer the question?

Yes but incorrectly.

A 4.01 ERA for a starter is mediocre. (Actually it’s pretty good.) A 4.01 ERA is not mediocre for a short reliever and certainly not for a closer.

[JDavis76]

Yes but incorrectly.

A 4.01 ERA for a starter is mediocre. (Actually it’s pretty good.) A 4.01 ERA is not mediocre for a short reliever and certainly not for a closer.

Well, that isn't his ERA as a closer, is it?

And 5.06 sucks no matter how you slice it.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, that isn't his ERA as a closer, is it?

And 5.06 sucks no matter how you slice it.

And Holmes is mediocre, the way you slice it.

[JDavis76]

And Holmes is mediocre, the way you slice it.

True, until a larger sample size proves otherwise.

But he has made the All Star team, has pivetta?

[jad]

I have heard the word professionalism mentioned here once or twice. Obviously it means different things to different people. The first offer made by ownership (if it is to be believed) to Devers smacked of unprofessionalism by ownership in my estimation. I do not think that they will wind up keeping him. That being the case, many lifelong fans are going to be deeply disappointed.

And, as a commentator noted today, getting rid of Bogey, whom Devers looks up to, isn't going to help. Better get used to what we saw last night.

[Maxbialystock]

I have heard the word professionalism mentioned here once or twice. Obviously it means different things to different people. The first offer made by ownership (if it is to be believed) to Devers smacked of unprofessionalism by ownership in my estimation. I do not think that they will wind up keeping him. That being the case, many lifelong fans are going to be deeply disappointed.

Top salaries are insanely risky for owners/GM's because the money is guaranteed no matter what and for a long time. Juan Soto, age 23, just sneered at the incredibly low offer of $420M--barely a living wage--from the Nationals. You think Raffy's agent--who only gets a percentage of what Raffy gets--isn't whispering in his ear that $500M is within reach?

[jad]

Top salaries are insanely risky for owners/GM's because the money is guaranteed no matter what and for a long time. Juan Soto, age 23, just sneered at the incredibly low offer of $420M--barely a living wage--from the Nationals. You think Raffy's agent--who only gets a percentage of what Raffy gets--isn't whispering in his ear that $500M is within reach?

So? If that's what other teams are willing to pay, then that's his market value, risk and all. If the RS economic theory involves not paying market value for players, then we can expect a lot more Bloomian games like last night.

[Maxbialystock]

So? If that's what other teams are willing to pay, then that's his market value, risk and all. If the RS economic theory involves not paying market value for players, then we can expect a lot more Bloomian games like last night.

Ahem. The Sox are shelling out plenty this year for Bogey, Price, Sale, JDM, Story, Raffy ($11M is still more than chump change), et al. Total salaries around $204M--6th highest freaking team salary package in freaking MLB.

Meanwhile, a team that Bloom played a large part in building/structuring for success, absolutely owns the Red Sox because they are solid at every position and, depending on how you count Wander Franco, have no big bucks stars. The Rays are professionals. The Sox this year are not. The Rays salary package is $88M.

The Sox clearly can afford to shell out more than $88M. If you read moonslav, he makes the argument they can go well over $200M. But, if you think Raffy is worth $500M for what will almost certainly be no more than 10 good years--thus $50M a year--that means Bloom or someone else needs to be awfully smart about who else they fill those other 25 (or is it 40) roster positions with.

[Maxbialystock]

So? If that's what other teams are willing to pay, then that's his market value, risk and all. If the RS economic theory involves not paying market value for players, then we can expect a lot more Bloomian games like last night.

Hey, guess what? We have Bogey and Devers and JDM and Story right now. The Sox also have Sale, Price (part of his salary, anyway), Eovaldi, Whitlock, Wacha, Pivetta, Houck, Schreiber, et al.

So, tell me, please, how's this team doing so far? You know, what with them losing 25-4 last night, and 13-2 and 14-1 in the two games before last night.

My opinion is that with all those guys and especially your very most favorite Red Sox players ever--Raffy and Bogey--this team stinks to high heaven. READ MY LIPS: IT TAKES AT LEAST 9 GOOD POSITIONS PLAYERS, 5 GOOD STARTERS, AND 7 GOOD RELIEVERS TO HAVE A GOOD TEAM.

So, my thought is that, if you want Bloom to keep your favs for whatever salaries they want and to get a bunch more good guys, next year's team salary package could be $300M without breaking a sweat.

[MADSTORK]

Sell

[redsoxrules]

Fangraphs playoff odds: 33%

Wait another 10 days. It will much lower than that

[harmony]

Wait another 10 days. It will much lower than that
The Red Sox chances for a postseason berth are down to 28.8 percent as I write at 8:29 pm EST:

https://www.fangraphs.com/standings/playoff-odds

[moonslav59]

29% is higher than I expected.

[harmony]

29% is higher than I expected.
538 has the Red Sox at 30 percent:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-mlb-predictions/

It's been a miserable week for the Red Sox but they're still just three games back of the third and final Wild Card slot (currently held by the falling Seattle Mariners thanks in part to the Sox ineptitude against the Blue Jays;))

[jad]

Ahem. The Sox are shelling out plenty this year for Bogey, Price, Sale, JDM, Story, Raffy ($11M is still more than chump change), et al. Total salaries around $204M--6th highest freaking team salary package in freaking MLB.

Meanwhile, a team that Bloom played a large part in building/structuring for success, absolutely owns the Red Sox because they are solid at every position and, depending on how you count Wander Franco, have no big bucks stars. The Rays are professionals. The Sox this year are not. The Rays salary package is $88M.

The Sox clearly can afford to shell out more than $88M. If you read moonslav, he makes the argument they can go well over $200M. But, if you think Raffy is worth $500M for what will almost certainly be no more than 10 good years--thus $50M a year--that means Bloom or someone else needs to be awfully smart about who else they fill those other 25 (or is it 40) roster positions with.

6th highest salary package. So? I guess your point is "Just look at LAD. That's what happens when you make the stupid mistake of paying an MVP market value."

[Maxbialystock]

6th highest salary package. So? I guess your point is "Just look at LAD. That's what happens when you make the stupid mistake of paying an MVP market value."

LA is a much bigger market and the Dodgers lead MLB in attendance, which Boston can never do with Fenway Park.

In case you're wondering, the Yankees are also in a much bigger market than the Sox and also have higher attendance.

But, since you raised the issue of Mookie Betts, I thought I'd float some numbers for you.

He played 5.3 seasons for the Sox and was paid a cumulative total of $33M. During those 5.3 seasons, his cumulative WAR was 35, so basically the Sox paid $1M for every 1 WAR Mookie delivered on the playing field.

In his 3 years, including this one, with the Dodgers, Mookie has been paid a total--and this doesn't include up front bonuses or other stuff they're paying him--of $74M for three seasons during which his cumulative WAR (this season isn't over yet) of 11. So they are paying $7M (less by the end of this season, assuming Mookie's seasonal WAR is more than the 3.1 achieved to date) per WAR earned on the playing field.

In other words, the Dodgers are in reality paying Mookie for those great years he had in Boston and not, I emphasis not, for what he has done for the Dodgers.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

In other words, the Dodgers are in reality paying Mookie for those great years he had in Boston and not, I emphasis not, for what he has done for the Dodgers.

There is no stat to show the full impact of Mookie Betts except number of rings: two. But you're right, LA is paying for him to be like he was in Boston: a leader, the face of the franchise and a winner.

It is rare in baseball history for a team to have the opportunity to acquire such a ballplayer in his prime; the most obvious one in our lifetimes was Frank Robinson. MVP. Hall of Famer.

edit: sorry, before the semantics police raid my keyboard, I need to add: ... difference-maker who actually put his new club over the top

[redsoxrules]

538 has the Red Sox at 30 percent:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-mlb-predictions/

It's been a miserable week for the Red Sox but they're still just three games back of the third and final Wild Card slot (currently held by the falling Seattle Mariners thanks in part to the Sox ineptitude against the Blue Jays;))

It's not just the Blue Jays. They can't beat anyone in the East

[Yaz Fan Since '67]

I have been optimistic all along, and I still think they can right the ship. We knew all year how dangerous it was to have 3 guys carrying the load offensively and we saw last night with 2 of them out they are fielding a minor league lineup. I mean they had no chance last night with that lineup full of holes. I will give it another week, after that I'm in sell mode too.

[Bellhorn04]

I have been optimistic all along, and I still think they can right the ship. We knew all year how dangerous it was to have 3 guys carrying the load offensively and we saw last night with 2 of them out they are fielding a minor league lineup. I mean they had no chance last night with that lineup full of holes. I will give it another week, after that I'm in sell mode too.

Injuries have gradually decimated the team, I'm afraid.

[oldtimer]

LA is a much bigger market and the Dodgers lead MLB in attendance, which Boston can never do with Fenway Park.

In case you're wondering, the Yankees are also in a much bigger market than the Sox and also have higher attendance.

But, since you raised the issue of Mookie Betts, I thought I'd float some numbers for you.

He played 5.3 seasons for the Sox and was paid a cumulative total of $33M. During those 5.3 seasons, his cumulative WAR was 35, so basically the Sox paid $1M for every 1 WAR Mookie delivered on the playing field.

In his 3 years, including this one, with the Dodgers, Mookie has been paid a total--and this doesn't include up front bonuses or other stuff they're paying him--of $74M for three seasons during which his cumulative WAR (this season isn't over yet) of 11. So they are paying $7M (less by the end of this season, assuming Mookie's seasonal WAR is more than the 3.1 achieved to date) per WAR earned on the playing field.

In other words, the Dodgers are in reality paying Mookie for those great years he had in Boston and not, I emphasis not, for what he has done for the Dodgers.

I was not alone in saying that Mookie would probably be a great asset on the Dodgers team in the near term. My issue was the length of contract representing substantial risk. The risk includes injuries and waning of ability, which might leave the Dodgers with a big dead money liability to swallow. Very long contracts for prime age players all come with similar risks.

[notin]

I was not alone in saying that Mookie would probably be a great asset on the Dodgers team in the near term. My issue was the length of contract representing substantial risk. The risk includes injuries and waning of ability, which might leave the Dodgers with a big dead money liability to swallow. Very long contracts for prime age players all come with similar risks.


The Sox signed players to 7 and 5 year contracts that produced very little. Imagine if Sale was a 12 year contract.

I’m sure the deadweight of Steasburg’s deal is a factor in Soto’s availability…

[moonslav59]

The Sox signed players to 7 and 5 year contracts that produced very little. Imagine if Sale was a 12 year contract.

I’m sure the deadweight of Stasburg’s deal is a factor in Soto’s availability…

We also signed Manny to 8.

[notin]

We also signed Manny to 8.

Manny and the first ARod deal were both rarities in that the players were good for the life of the deal. Part of the reason is Manny was roughly the same age as Mookie but signed for 4 fewer years, and that was a product of the times. 8 year deals were considered crazy back then…

[Bellhorn04]

Manny and the first ARod deal were both rarities in that the players were good for the life of the deal. Part of the reason is Manny was roughly the same age as Mookie but signed for 4 fewer years, and that was a product of the times. 8 year deals were considered crazy back then…

What's really bizarre is that Mookie's deal actually looks almost sensible, comparatively speaking...

BTW Chris Gasper interviewed Mookie and asked him flat out if the deal he got from the Dodgers would have kept him with the Red Sox and Mookie said yes. Whether true we'll never know.

[moonslav59]

Manny and the first ARod deal were both rarities in that the players were good for the life of the deal. Part of the reason is Manny was roughly the same age as Mookie but signed for 4 fewer years, and that was a product of the times. 8 year deals were considered crazy back then…

I realize the majority of long term deals suck for the team. Another significant percent are barely close to a wash. Only a small percentage work out well for the team.

I'm not against the general philosophy of not ever signing anyone to large and long deals, but I do think there are times when an exception is needed.

I think Betts was one to make an exception for, and now I think Devers is. It has a lot to do with their ages. I'm not for going long on Bogey. Large, yes, but not long.

Maybe we could have spread the money out and still won, but I don't see us winning in 2004 or 2007 without Manny. Many feel we don't win in 2018 without Price.

[moonslav59]

I realize the majority of long term deals suck for the team. Another significant percent are barely close to a wash. Only a small percentage work out well for the team.

I'm not against the general philosophy of not ever signing anyone to large and long deals, but I do think there are times when an exception is needed.

I think Betts was one to make an exception for, and now I think Devers is. It has a lot to do with their ages. I'm not for going long on Bogey. Large, yes, but not long.

Maybe we could have spread the money out and still won, but I don't see us winning in 2004 or 2007 without Manny. Many feel we don't win in 2018 without Price.

The one year we won without a mega contract was 2013, and many view that win as a fluke.

Can we create more flukes?

[Kimmi]

I have been optimistic all along, and I still think they can right the ship. We knew all year how dangerous it was to have 3 guys carrying the load offensively and we saw last night with 2 of them out they are fielding a minor league lineup. I mean they had no chance last night with that lineup full of holes. I will give it another week, after that I'm in sell mode too.

It's been hard to remain optimistic, but I'm not ready to give up on this team. They have to get healthy though. I think with relatively good health and a few reinforcement pieces, the team can contend. Bloom will have some tough decisions to make, especially since it appears that most of our IL guys will be returning in early August, just after the deadline.

[cp176]

The one year we won without a mega contract was 2013, and many view that win as a fluke.

Can we create more flukes?

That is the point isn't it? How badly does JH want to win these days? It is certainly a pleasant thought that we could be Tampa north I'm sure. Relying on unproven prospects regardless of their newspaper clippings and aging AAA veterans might not be the way to go. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And before it is mentioned again, I am aware of what the current red Sox payroll is.

[Bellhorn04]

That is the point isn't it? How badly does JH want to win these days? It is certainly a pleasant thought that we could be Tampa north I'm sure. Relying on unproven prospects regardless of their newspaper clippings and aging AAA veterans might not be the way to go. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And before it is mentioned again, I am aware of what the current red Sox payroll is.

I think JH still wants to win plenty. He hired Bloom because he wants sustainable success.

Right now the 2022 team doesn't look good, no getting around that. And I don't think JH can be very happy about it.

[moonslav59]

That is the point isn't it? How badly does JH want to win these days? It is certainly a pleasant thought that we could be Tampa north I'm sure. Relying on unproven prospects regardless of their newspaper clippings and aging AAA veterans might not be the way to go. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And before it is mentioned again, I am aware of what the current red Sox payroll is.

I wasn't hinting at spending less.

I was hinting at maybe taking a strategy of having more moderate contracts than ever, but less or eventually no large and long deals at all.

This doesn't mean we aren't trying to win: it could mean we are trying a different way.

When Henry hired Ben, I thought he was moving towards no mega deals, having a strong farm and looking for steady competitive teams. The three last place finishes caused him to scrap that plan, but maybe, this time, he'll give it a longer chance to work.

It's not easy building that type of team and system in 4 years. Even 5 might be unrealistic to hope for a ring-worthy type team.

This winter will not only be telling for Bloom, but for Henry as well, and the whole organizational blueprint.

I'll be pissed, if Devers walks, but if we are highly competitive, soon afterwards, I know I'll forget.

If 2021, a season where we didn't even make the WS, helped me get over losing Betts, I'm not so sure I'll be forever crushed, if Devers bolts.

Just win, baby!

[moonslav59]

I think JH still wants to win plenty. He hired Bloom because he wants sustainable success.

Right now the 2022 team doesn't look good, no getting around that. And I don't think JH can be very happy about it.

What if Henry's expectations for Bloom were something like this:

84 wins in 2021

88 wins in 2022

92 wins in 2023

A WS top contender by 2024?

Of course, it's not as simple as wins, the state of the budget, farm and foundation of winning players matters more than wins, but just follow my point.

We exceeded in 2021, and maybe we wont be far enough from 88 wins, this year for henry to blow a gasket and blow everything up, like he did after ben's 3 last place finishes. If you comb ine 2021 and 2022, maybe Bloom has met Henry's expectation.

Bloom has had one major signing, and even Story's deal is no where near Price's or even as much as Pablo+HRam's combined expenditure, which maybe weren't even Ben's top choice signings.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe Henry did not expect Bloom to produce a top contending team by 2022. His budgets did not show signs that Henry was all in, like he was in 2018 and other seasons before that.

[JDavis76]

What if Henry's expectations for Bloom were something like this:

84 wins in 2021

88 wins in 2022

92 wins in 2023

A WS top contender by 2024?

Of course, it's not as simple as wins, the state of the budget, farm and foundation of winning players matters more than wins, but just follow my point.

We exceeded in 2021, and maybe we wont be far enough from 88 wins, this year for henry to blow a gasket and blow everything up, like he did after ben's 3 last place finishes. If you comb ine 2021 and 2022, maybe Bloom has met Henry's expectation.

Bloom has had one major signing, and even Story's deal is no where near Price's or even as much as Pablo+HRam's combined expenditure, which maybe weren't even Ben's top choice signings.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe Henry did not expect Bloom to produce a top contending team by 2022. His budgets did not show signs that Henry was all in, like he was in 2018 and other seasons before that.

What if they weren't?

[moonslav59]

Is anyone still on the no sell bandwagon?

[Bellhorn04]

Is anyone still on the no sell bandwagon?

The crazy part is, the guys we thought might be involved in the fire sale have done nothing but lose value.

2022 has become a spectacular fustercluck.

[Maxbialystock]

I realize the majority of long term deals suck for the team. Another significant percent are barely close to a wash. Only a small percentage work out well for the team.

I'm not against the general philosophy of not ever signing anyone to large and long deals, but I do think there are times when an exception is needed.

I think Betts was one to make an exception for, and now I think Devers is. It has a lot to do with their ages. I'm not for going long on Bogey. Large, yes, but not long.

Maybe we could have spread the money out and still won, but I don't see us winning in 2004 or 2007 without Manny. Many feel we don't win in 2018 without Price.

While I do agree one player, pitcher or position player, can make a real difference, I also think they can't do it without being surrounded by a bunches of good players. You need a good lineup and a good pitching staff. Right now the Angels have two of the best players in MLB. Both have won AL MVP awards. And the Angels are 15 games below .500.

Based on the above, I would argue right now I simply do not see the point of trying to keep Bogey, JDM, or Raffy. All three are on this team right now, and this team stinks. And please don't give me that, "but what about the injuries" crap because injuries are absolutely part of the game.

Do you remember Mark Bellhorn who played 2b/3b on the 2004 team? He batted .264 and had an OBP of .373 and an OPS of .817--and sometimes batted 9th on that team.

[Bellhorn04]

While I do agree one player, pitcher or position player, can make a real difference, I also think they can't do it without being surrounded by a bunches of good players. You need a good lineup and a good pitching staff. Right now the Angels have two of the best players in MLB. Both have won AL MVP awards. And the Angels are 15 games below .500.

Based on the above, I would argue right now I simply do not see the point of trying to keep Bogey, JDM, or Raffy. All three are on this team right now, and this team stinks. And please don't give me that, "but what about the injuries" crap because injuries are absolutely part of the game.

So you're using the argument that because good individual players don't guarantee team success, you don't actually need good players?

Max, I know it's been a rough season, but don't let it drag you all the way down.

[moonslav59]

So you're using the argument that because good individual players don't guarantee team success, you don't actually need good players?

Max, I know it's been a rough season, but don't let it drag you all the way down.

We had a lot of the same studs in 2018 and 2019 (and beyond), so this theory is highly questionable.

[moonslav59]

The crazy part is, the guys we thought might be involved in the fire sale have done nothing but lose value.

2022 has become a spectacular fustercluck.

Others are on the IL with no hope of being back before the deadline.

[mvp 78]

It's been hard to remain optimistic, but I'm not ready to give up on this team. They have to get healthy though. I think with relatively good health and a few reinforcement pieces, the team can contend. Bloom will have some tough decisions to make, especially since it appears that most of our IL guys will be returning in early August, just after the deadline.

I don’t see it this year. I wish I shared your optimism

:(

[notin]

So you're using the argument that because good individual players don't guarantee team success, you don't actually need good players?

Max, I know it's been a rough season, but don't let it drag you all the way down.


I don’t think that’s where he’s going.

If his point is getting good players limits you in the rest of your lineup, then you’re better off not having them.

For example, if the Sox had retained Mookie, we’d have no Bogaerts and probably no Sale (who has admittedly been a health nightmare and bad contract).

What’s going on with this team is they know they are limited to how many superstars they can afford long term, and therefore find it necessary to compliment them with min wage or dirt cheap players who are actually good. The trouble is figuring who these players will be. And

[notin]

Is anyone still on the no sell bandwagon?

I am.

I’m on the “acquire longer term MLB players” wagon, like maybe Christian Walker.

I don’t care if they unload any of Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, Strahm, Martinez. I’d try to keep Bogaerts. But he’s have to learn a new position…

[Larry Cook]

I am.

I’m on the “acquire longer term MLB players” wagon, like maybe Christian Walker.

I don’t care if they unload any of Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, Strahm, Martinez. I’d try to keep Bogaerts. But he’s have to learn a new position…

Which contending national league team needs a short stop, because I would love to send them bogey.

Hang’em Chaim should also move anybody else in an expiring contract for whatever prospects he can get.

[moonslav59]

I am.

I’m on the “acquire longer term MLB players” wagon, like maybe Christian Walker.

I don’t care if they unload any of Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, Strahm, Martinez. I’d try to keep Bogaerts. But he’s have to learn a new position…

So, you want trades like Lester for Cespedes and Lackey for Kelly & Craig type deals?

(Not that we have anyone that good to trade.)

[moonslav59]

Which contending national league team needs a short stop, because I would love to send them bogey.

Hang’em Chaim should also move anybody else in an expiring contract for whatever prospects he can get.

We have 8 games to change my mind, but as of now, I'm for selling every player with one year left for the best we can get, no matter how bad it looks.

On 2 year players: I'd trade or can Diekman, but if we sell 9 guys, I guess we keep him around, since we're paying him for next year, too, and maybe he turns it around- same with Brasier & Barnes, who has an option for 2024. Trade Sawamura for whatever. Pay his an other's remaining contracts to sweeten the return, if necessary.

Devers forevers. I'll keep saying it in hopes it becomes a reality.

FAs after 2024, I would not mind seeing traded:
Arroyo
Verdugo (I don't want Duran & Verdugo both on the 26, next season.)
Cordero

That should be enough to keep Bloom busy in the next 8 days.

[Maxbialystock]

I don’t think that’s where he’s going.

If his point is getting good players limits you in the rest of your lineup, then you’re better off not having them.

For example, if the Sox had retained Mookie, we’d have no Bogaerts and probably no Sale (who has admittedly been a health nightmare and bad contract).

What’s going on with this team is they know they are limited to how many superstars they can afford long term, and therefore find it necessary to compliment them with min wage or dirt cheap players who are actually good. The trouble is figuring who these players will be. And

Exactly.

Let me add that Juan Soto, age 23, just turned down the insultingly lowball offer of $420M from the Washington Nationals. Devers is 25 and has demonstrated far more value than Soto. What makes anyone on Talksox think Raffy's agent isn't telling him to hold out for $500M?

[moonslav59]

Exactly.

Let me add that Juan Soto, age 23, just turned down the insultingly lowball offer of $420M from the Washington Nationals. Devers is 25 and has demonstrated far more value than Soto. What makes anyone on Talksox think Raffy's agent isn't telling him to hold out for $500M?

How has Devers shown more value?

Compare career numbers at age 23, no, forget that. Right now, Soto has a higher career SLG % and kills Devers in OBP by like 80 points.

Soto might make $500M/15 while Devers would jump at $350M/ 15.

[harmony]

Exactly.

Let me add that Juan Soto, age 23, just turned down the insultingly lowball offer of $420M from the Washington Nationals. Devers is 25 and has demonstrated far more value than Soto. What makes anyone on Talksox think Raffy's agent isn't telling him to hold out for $500M?
Heading into Sunday's games Juan Soto had posted 21.3 fWAR in 557 career games while Rafael Devers had posted 18.0 fWAR in 635 career games.

ZiPS projects Soto with 7.9 and 7.7 WAR over the next two seasons while projecting Devers with 4.5 and 4.6 WAR over the same period.

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/juan-soto/20123/stats?position=OF

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/rafael-devers/17350/stats?position=3B

[redsoxrules]

Exactly.

Let me add that Juan Soto, age 23, just turned down the insultingly lowball offer of $420M from the Washington Nationals. Devers is 25 and has demonstrated far more value than Soto. What makes anyone on Talksox think Raffy's agent isn't telling him to hold out for $500M?

I would say vice versa. Soto has shown more value. He's a beast at the plate. Dude has never had an OBP below 400 in any season.

[moonslav59]

I would say vice versa. Soto has shown more value. He's a beast at the plate. Dude has never had an OBP below 400 in any season.



.426 career OBP and .448 the last 3 years (ages 21-23).

Devers has never ended up over .361 in a season and is at .351 over the last 3 seasons (ages 23-25).

Soto has a better SLG%, too.

2 years younger.

[jgar658]

Is Alex Cora responsible for the Red Sox demise?
It seems no one mentions Cora in this debacle.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Is Alex Cora responsible for the Red Sox demise?
It seems no one mentions Cora in this debacle.

I know; imagine a manager actually playing the players on the roster assembled by his bosses.

[JDavis76]

I know; imagine a manager actually playing the players on the roster assembled by his bosses.

They seem unmotivated and ill prepared. That falls on cora.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

As if any manager should be able to motivate and prepare minor league batters to hit big league pitching, and minor league pitchers to get out big league hitters.

[Bellhorn04]

Is Alex Cora responsible for the Red Sox demise?
It seems no one mentions Cora in this debacle.

He gets mentioned plenty on the game threads.

[mvp 78]

He gets mentioned plenty on the game threads.

Hard to blame him for having Cordero at 1b or Downs at 3b. Downs hadn't played 3b at all in his professional career until this month. Cordero is just a bad fielder. Cora can't fix that.

Xander and Devers both made big strides in the field this year. If we're going to beat up Cora for bad defense, need to at least thank him for turning those two around.

[mvp 78]

Also, Duran's bad defense has been a known issue. I've been saying he sucks in CF for a long time, but some posters wanted to just put him there anyway.

[JDavis76]

As if any manager should be able to motivate and prepare minor league batters to hit big league pitching, and minor league pitchers to get out big league hitters.

Umm, they can't even catch a ball.

And if they are in a major league game, then they are major league players....

[Bellhorn04]

Hard to blame him for having Cordero at 1b or Downs at 3b. Downs hadn't played 3b at all in his professional career until this month. Cordero is just a bad fielder. Cora can't fix that.

Xander and Devers both made big strides in the field this year. If we're going to beat up Cora for bad defense, need to at least thank him for turning those two around.

About the only thing I can say is I'd rather see Refsnyder than Cordero at this point, if we're still trying to win games.

Cordero DH'd in Saturday's game and played LF yesterday.

[mvp 78]

About the only thing I can say is I'd rather see Refsnyder than Cordero at this point, if we're still trying to win games.

Cordero DH'd in Saturday's game and played LF yesterday.

Yes, Refsnyder not being a FT player right now is the only odd decision. He's at least capable out there. Cordero can really shove your nose in it from time to time.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, Refsnyder not being a FT player right now is the only odd decision. He's at least capable out there. Cordero can really shove your nose in it from time to time.

Cordero has a .411 OPS in July with 30 K's and 3 walks, and is a bad fielder.

[mvp 78]

Cordero has a .411 OPS in July with 30 K's and 3 walks, and is a bad fielder.

He's not the dog shitting on he carpet right now, he's just the actual dog shit.

[Elktonnick]

Umm, they can't even catch a ball.

And if they are in a major league game, then they are major league players....
Cora is and always has been a laissez-faire manager. He can take a highly motivated team and add value
However he historically has been unable and unwilling to adequately prepare his ball clubs. He defers to the players on that score

He does not come from the more you sweat in practice the less you bleed in combat school of thought.

Those who absolve Cora any role in the current state of affairs can not also absolve Bloom.

IMO both are equally culpable. This club is reminding more and more like the pre 1967 Red Sox.

[JDavis76]

Cora is and always has been a laissez-faire manager. He can take a highly motivated team and add value
However he historically has been unable and unwilling to adequately prepare his ball clubs. He defers to the players on that score

He does not come from the more you sweat in practice the less you bleed in combat school of thought.

Those who absolve Cora any role in the current state of affairs can not also absolve Bloom.

IMO both are equally culpable. This club is reminding more and more like the pre 1967 Red Sox.

I think he is highly over-rated by some on here.

[cukes]

I think he is highly over-rated by some on here.

Very over rated

[JDavis76]

Very over rated

I think moonslob proclaimed that he was the best manager in sox history

[cukes]

We had a lot of the same studs in 2018 and 2019 (and beyond), so this theory is highly questionable.

when players quit on a manager or franchise front office no matter how good they are they will not go 100% and I have seen it many times, the public does not know the inner problems that's why it starts at the top

[Oscars]

We have 8 games to change my mind, but as of now, I'm for selling every player with one year left for the best we can get, no matter how bad it looks.

On 2 year players: I'd trade or can Diekman, but if we sell 9 guys, I guess we keep him around, since we're paying him for next year, too, and maybe he turns it around- same with Brasier & Barnes, who has an option for 2024. Trade Sawamura for whatever. Pay his an other's remaining contracts to sweeten the return, if necessary.

Devers forevers. I'll keep saying it in hopes it becomes a reality.

FAs after 2024, I would not mind seeing traded:
Arroyo
Verdugo (I don't want Duran & Verdugo both on the 26, next season.)
Cordero

That should be enough to keep Bloom busy in the next 8 days.


Duran and Dugo is the same lineup just can’t happen next season.
The hitting from the Sox outfield and DH spots have been truly abysmal.
The typical quartet for the Yankees ( Stanton, Judge, Gallo, Carpenter ) have 75 HRs between them.
Our typical 4 ( JBJ , Duran, Dugo, JD ) have 19 HRs combined.
FFS the starting yankee 1st baseman has more HRs (22) than than the Red Sox current starting outfield and DH combined!!!
Historically this would have to be right up there as one of the worst Red Sox outfield/DH combinations in terms of HR production in recent memory.
Apparently 200 million doesn’t go very far these days.

[Bellhorn04]

when players quit on a manager or franchise front office no matter how good they are they will not go 100% and I have seen it many times, the public does not know the inner problems that's why it starts at the top

Exactly - we don't know if there are inner problems or not.

When teams are going this bad we tend to start looking for those inner problems...

[mvp 78]

Exactly - we don't know if there are inner problems or not.

When teams are going this bad we tend to start looking for those inner problems...

The problems:

Dalbec never got hot.
Kiké got hurt.
JBJ is still terrible.
Verdugo has a good statcast, but the hits aren't falling in.
The starting pitching that had injury question marks became injury exclamation points.
Story didn't acclimate to the AL quickly.
Barnes didn't get fixed in the offseason.
Whitlock/Houck weren't given fixed positions.

Xander/JD/Raffy/Vaz were good.

[Yaz Fan Since '67]

Yes, Refsnyder not being a FT player right now is the only odd decision. He's at least capable out there. Cordero can really shove your nose in it from time to time.

This is about the only thing I can put on Cora. His lineup has Duran, Cordero, Dalbec, JBJ, Sanchez and Downs. I defy you to find a manager throughout the history of the game who can win with that lineup.

[mvp 78]

This is about the only thing I can put on Cora. His lineup has Duran, Cordero, Dalbec, JBJ, Sanchez and Downs. I defy you to find a manager throughout the history of the game who can win with that lineup.

He's stuck with Downs and Yolmer, but I would have considered moving Downs to 2b and Yolmer to 3b.

I would have benched Duran on Saturday night though. You can't let that play happen on Friday night and then not even attempt to get that ball after. Just a bad look.

I would stop putting Cordero at 1b altogether. Dalbec would be there fulltime for me going forward until a better option comes around. Cordero is now the 4th OFer and you do some Duran/JBJ/Cordero rotation with CF/RF depending on the field.

Refsnyder seems competent. I'd have him play no matter what.

[notin]

He's stuck with Downs and Yolmer, but I would have considered moving Downs to 2b and Yolmer to 3b.

Understandable but Downs does clearly have the better arm.


I would have benched Duran on Saturday night though. You can't let that play happen on Friday night and then not even attempt to get that ball after. Just a bad look.

Also understandable, but there was no one else. Refsnyder was reportedly banged up


I would stop putting Cordero at 1b altogether. Dalbec would be there fulltime for me going forward until a better option comes around. Cordero is now the 4th OFer and you do some Duran/JBJ/Cordero rotation with CF/RF depending on the field.

Cordero at 1b is an experiment that needs to end. He was never the plan, and it’s time to remember that.


Refsnyder seems competent. I'd have him play no matter what.

And he might once he is ready again…

[moonslav59]

Yes, Refsnyder not being a FT player right now is the only odd decision. He's at least capable out there. Cordero can really shove your nose in it from time to time.

The Refsnyder playing time issue has me head scratching for quite sometime. Yes, I dare use that term, again.

I get the argument that he looked like a flash to start, and putting total faith in him based on a few games is not usually sound strategy, but WTF!!! Our OF has sucked, even when Kike was healthy. And, here’s the clincher: what the hell is the Refsnyder plan, right now? Does anyone know?

He’s started 8 games vs RHPs and 11 vs LHPs. That does not look like a platoon, to me. 51 PAs v R and 46 vL. I expected to find massive differentials and way more than just 97 PAs on the season. Why?

I’m being serious here. Why just 97PAs?

[Yaz Fan Since '67]

He's stuck with Downs and Yolmer, but I would have considered moving Downs to 2b and Yolmer to 3b.

I would have benched Duran on Saturday night though. You can't let that play happen on Friday night and then not even attempt to get that ball after. Just a bad look.

I would stop putting Cordero at 1b altogether. Dalbec would be there fulltime for me going forward until a better option comes around. Cordero is now the 4th OFer and you do some Duran/JBJ/Cordero rotation with CF/RF depending on the field.

Refsnyder seems competent. I'd have him play no matter what.

I only saw that play once and tried to remove it from my memory. But wasn't the LF closer so that's why he didn't run?

[Bellhorn04]

The Refsnyder playing time issue has me head scratching for quite sometime. Yes, I dare use that term, again.

I get the argument that he looked like a flash to start, and putting total faith in him based on a few games is not usually sound strategy, but WTF!!! Our OF has sucked, even when Kike was healthy. And, here’s the clincher: what the hell is the Refsnyder plan, right now? Does anyone know?

He’s started 8 games vs RHPs and 11 vs LHPs. That does not look like a platoon, to me. 51 PAs v R and 46 vL. I expected to find massive differentials and way more than just 97 PAs on the season. Why?

I’m being serious here. Why just 97PAs?

Did you see notin's post above?

[moonslav59]

Did you see notin's post above?

About Ref being banged up, yes, after my post, but I’m sticking to my point. Ref should have much more than 97 PAs, and the platoon idea has not been a platoon , in reality

[Bellhorn04]

About Ref being banged up, yes, after my post, but I’m sticking to my point. Ref should have much more than 97 PAs, and the platoon idea has not been a platoon , in reality

He's only been with the team since June 10, or about 6 weeks, aside from 3 games in April.

Aside from that, you'd have to go through each game and see who he was playing instead of.

[moonslav59]

He's only been with the team since June 10, or about 6 weeks, aside from 3 games in April.

Aside from that, you'd have to go through each game and see who he was playing instead of.

I know all the choices, and none are better- lefty or righty.

I didn’t expect to see 250 PAs. I know he hardly played before June, but he’s 11th in team PAs in June and 9th in July. I know that’s behind Duran and Dugo. Not sure about JBJ, Cordero and Dalbec.

[Bellhorn04]

I know all the choices, and none are better- lefty or righty.

I didn’t expect to see 250 PAs. I know he hardly played before June, but he’s 11th in team PAs in June and 9th in July. I know that’s behind Duran and Dugo. Not sure about JBJ, Cordero and Dalbec.

I think it's only in the last week or two that people have started to ask why Ref isn't in the lineup more.

Verdugo's OPS for June was .905.

Duran's OPS on July 6 was .900.

When would you have started bumping these guys in favor of Ref?

[moonslav59]

I think it's only in the last week or two that people have started to ask why Ref isn't in the lineup more.

Verdugo's OPS for June was .905.

Duran's OPS on July 6 was .900.

When would you have started bumping these guys in favor of Ref?

Kike was out. Bump JBJ and Cordero, whenever he was in the OF. Maybe sit Duran vs some lefties, if needed.

BTW, I was calling for giving Ref more time before most were. (Not bragging- I've been more wrong than right.)

Yes, Dugo and Duran were hot for a while, but...

.965 in June

.895 in July

...and last I checked, there are 3 OF positions! LOL

[Bellhorn04]

Kike was out. Bump JBJ and Cordero, whenever he was in the OF. Maybe sit Duran vs some lefties, if needed.

BTW, I was calling for giving Ref more time before most were. (Not bragging- I've been more wrong than right.)

Yes, Dugo and Duran were hot for a while, but...

.965 in June

.895 in July

...and last I checked, there are 3 OF positions! LOL



2022 vs. RHP

Refsnyder .733
Bradley .622

Career vs. RHP

Refsnyder .605

Given the likelihood of regression, I don't think there's enough to justify Ref simply replacing Bradley as full time RF.

[notin]

2022 vs. RHP

Refsnyder .733
Bradley .622

Career vs. RHP

Refsnyder .605

Given the likelihood of regression, I don't think there's enough to justify Ref simply replacing Bradley as full time RF.

I don’t get the idea of being in both Sell Mode and Play Refsnyder Mode.

Refsnyder is a 31yo AAAA journeyman. He’s the present, not the future…

[moonslav59]

2022 vs. RHP

Refsnyder .733
Bradley .622

Career vs. RHP

Refsnyder .605

Given the likelihood of regression, I don't think there's enough to justify Ref simply replacing Bradley as full time RF.

Play till he regreses

[moonslav59]

I don’t get the idea of being in both Sell Mode and Play Refsnyder Mode.

Refsnyder is a 31yo AAAA journeyman. He’s the present, not the future…

He might be a late bloomer. And he has team control. We have no ML ready OFers on the farm he’s blocking, and how is playing JBJ looking towards the future.

The answer is so obvious why ref should play more.

[Bellhorn04]

Play till he regreses

I'm siding with Cora on this one.

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t get the idea of being in both Sell Mode and Play Refsnyder Mode.

Refsnyder is a 31yo AAAA journeyman. He’s the present, not the future…

I believe that even people who are in sell mode, outside of Fellowship of the Miserable types, want the Sox to win every time they step on the field.

[notin]

He might be a late bloomer. And he has team control. We have no ML ready OFers on the farm he’s blocking, and how is playing JBJ looking towards the future.

The answer is so obvious why ref should play more.

JBJ isn’t the future either, but he does have an option.

Refsnyder’s past has shown this is likely an enjoyable SSS blip for a player whose ceiling is weak side platoon option…

[mvp 78]

I only saw that play once and tried to remove it from my memory. But wasn't the LF closer so that's why he didn't run?

I mean, he didn't even flinch towards the ball after it went past him.

[mvp 78]

I think it's only in the last week or two that people have started to ask why Ref isn't in the lineup more.

Verdugo's OPS for June was .905.

Duran's OPS on July 6 was .900.

When would you have started bumping these guys in favor of Ref?

I'd play Verdugo every day. I think Cora is going to play Duran in CF every day just to get him the reps. I guess that makes a platoon with JBJ/Ref in RF? IDK.

If they were trying to win, I'd put JBJ in CF and Ref in RF when he was ready and just go with that. Duran was hot for 10 games and then ice cold right after. It was a dramatic fall off.

[Kimmi]

Is anyone still on the no sell bandwagon?

{Raises hand}

[notin]

I mean, he didn't even flinch towards the ball after it went past him.

It looked worse on TV because Verdugo didn’t even get on screen for a second or two, but what it did do regardless of his apparent complacency was solidify everything we’ve heard about his OF defense…

[notin]

I'd play Verdugo every day. I think Cora is going to play Duran in CF every day just to get him the reps. I guess that makes a platoon with JBJ/Ref in RF? IDK.

If they were trying to win, I'd put JBJ in CF and Ref in RF when he was ready and just go with that. Duran was hot for 10 games and then ice cold right after. It was a dramatic fall off.

The play of Duran in CF should actually justify the Bradley trade even more. I get moving on from Bradley, but if the Sox can win 5 or 6 of these next 7, should they still sell? And if not, put Bradley in CF and bat him 9th and maybe fewer sac flies turn into inside-the-park grand slams…

[JDavis76]

{Raises hand}

So you don't want to do what is in the best long term interest of the team?

That pretty much goes against what you preach in here all the time.

[Kimmi]

So you don't want to do what is in the best long term interest of the team?

That pretty much goes against what you preach in here all the time.

I preach the long term interest of the team in balance with the short term interest. I have never been in favor of prioritizing one to the extent of sacrificing the other. The priority is long term sustainability, but again, not at the expense of contending this year.

[JDavis76]

I preach the long term interest of the team in balance with the short term interest. I have never been in favor of prioritizing one to the extent of sacrificing the other. The priority is long term sustainability, but again, not at the expense of contending this year.

They are closer to last place than they are to a playoff spot.

[a700hitter]

I preach the long term interest of the team in balance with the short term interest. I have never been in favor of prioritizing one to the extent of sacrificing the other. The priority is long term sustainability, but again, not at the expense of contending this year.
As July closes out, the Red Sox are not in contention.

[mvp 78]

The play of Duran in CF should actually justify the Bradley trade even more. I get moving on from Bradley, but if the Sox can win 5 or 6 of these next 7, should they still sell? And if not, put Bradley in CF and bat him 9th and maybe fewer sac flies turn into inside-the-park grand slams…

Not really as I don't think you make trades for $10M backup CFers. If Kiké was healthy, he'd still be the everyday guy.

Will they still sell? I'm not sure if they sell regardless of what their record is.

Should they sell? I think they should make phone calls and see what offers are out there. Considering what Dan Vogelbach fetched, seems like the Sox should explore trading everyone.

[mvp 78]

It looked worse on TV because Verdugo didn’t even get on screen for a second or two, but what it did do regardless of his apparent complacency was solidify everything we’ve heard about his OF defense…

He's had 5 years to get better and it's still looking pretty rough. This is his age 26 season.

In CF
2021: -5 DRS, -28.8 UZR/150
2022: -6 DRS, -15.5 UZR/150

[Kimmi]

They are closer to last place than they are to a playoff spot.

Doesn't matter.

[Kimmi]

As July closes out, the Red Sox are not in contention.

Things could change in another couple of weeks, but at the moment, I disagree.

[Kimmi]

Keep the faith people. Keep the faith.

[Bellhorn04]

{Raises hand}

You're a beacon of light, Kimmi. I mean that. Don't ever leave us.

[mvp 78]

As July closes out, the Red Sox are not in contention.

They are, but only because of how many Wild Card spots they have added. This team could be in closer contention than the hated 2019 team, but actually have a worse record.

[Kimmi]

You're a beacon of light, Kimmi. I mean that. Don't ever leave us.

I almost feel like it's my obligation to come here and defend our beloved team, manager, GM, and owner included. It's been an extremely brutal 3 weeks, so I understand the criticism and the pessimism, but there's still a lot of baseball to be played.

[moonslav59]

I mean, he didn't even flinch towards the ball after it went past him.

Like he instantly knew, it was Dugo's ball.

I have my doubts.

It looked to me, like he chose to pout. Just my opinion.

[a700hitter]

Like he instantly knew, it was Dugo's ball.

I have my doubts.

It looked to me, like he chose to pout. Just my opinion.
It did look that way.

[oldtimer]

I almost feel like it's my obligation to come here and defend our beloved team, manager, GM, and owner included. It's been an extremely brutal 3 weeks, so I understand the criticism and the pessimism, but there's still a lot of baseball to be played.

This is not a team that could contend for a WS ring. Even when Devers and JDM get back, we still are not capable one through nine and our depth is not there.. The real problem is pitching depth. We won last night with pitching, garnering only 6 hits against average pitching. I see Bloom as having made the choice to build the team for 2023 and beyond.

[mvp 78]

Like he instantly knew, it was Dugo's ball.

I have my doubts.

It looked to me, like he chose to pout. Just my opinion.

Maybe he heard Verdugo yell that he had it, but it was just the worst look ever in a horribly rotten game.

[moonslav59]

Maybe he heard Verdugo yell that he had it, but it was just the worst look ever in a horribly rotten game.

Then, the comments, afterwards, as I heard third person, cemented my disdain for Duran.

[Bellhorn04]

Then, the comments, afterwards, as I heard third person, cemented my disdain for Duran.

It's one incident. Hopefully he will learn from it. He'd better.

Also not sure why you're not giving him any credit on the attitude front for getting vaxed.

[mvp 78]

It's one incident. Hopefully he will learn from it. He'd better.

Also not sure why you're not giving him any credit on the attitude front for getting vaxed.

Personally, I know nothing about the attitude issues. To me, it just looks like his defense isn't getting any better as shown by the eye test and the advanced metrics.

[moonslav59]

It's one incident. Hopefully he will learn from it. He'd better.

Also not sure why you're not giving him any credit on the attitude front for getting vaxed.

It’s like his comments after being a slouch. It only adds to the puzzlement.

He caved on the vax. I’m not impressed or feeling any need to “give credit.

I’d trade him over Dugo, because he’ll bring back more.

[moonslav59]

Personally, I know nothing about the attitude issues. To me, it just looks like his defense isn't getting any better as shown by the eye test and the advanced metrics.

Indeed. At least Verdugo is okay on D.

[Elktonnick]

{Raises hand}
I am. Henry has a real problem with his Boston fans. Selling Bogaerts without a major return of a unequivocal star player will really turn off Sox local fans. He has to remember he is competing with the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins for the hearts and minds of local fans. Right now most local fans are not happy with Henry's economy moves especially in view of his reported interest in helping Lebron James obtain an NBA franchise.

[moonslav59]

I am. Henry has a real problem with his Boston fans. Selling Bogaerts without a major return of a unequivocal star player will really turn off Sox local fans. He has to remember he is competing with the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins for the hearts and minds of local fans. Right now most local fans are not happy with Henry's economy moves especially in view of his reported interest in helping Lebron James obtain an NBA franchise.

The only unequivocal star player we might get back for Bogey, would be another 2 month rental that plays a different position, and even that is highly improbable.

It's 2 months of Bogey- not 6 years.

[JDavis76]

Selling Bogaerts without a major return of a unequivocal star player Why not just keep your star player then?Right now most local fans are not happy with Henry's economy moves Umm, the sox have the 6th highest payroll, what "economy moves"?!!
,,,,,,

[notin]

I am. Henry has a real problem with his Boston fans. Selling Bogaerts without a major return of a unequivocal star player will really turn off Sox local fans. He has to remember he is competing with the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins for the hearts and minds of local fans. Right now most local fans are not happy with Henry's economy moves especially in view of his reported interest in helping Lebron James obtain an NBA franchise.

None of the Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins play in the summer months. Many if not most fans already support multiple teams…

[Elktonnick]

The only unequivocal star player we might get back for Bogey, would be another 2 month rental that plays a different position, and even that is highly improbable.

It's 2 months of Bogey- not 6 years.
Sox fans in Boston are super pissed at Henry. They will not tolerate any Betts type deal. You can postulate any number of possible scenarios but the bottom line is that any deal must be sold to the public. They will not be bought off with any rebuild kind of nonsense. This team was two games from the world series. The fans believe that Bloom Deconstructed the team. It was a false economy move.
All I am saying is they can not move Bogaerts without a quality return (And I do not mean a Trevor Story type) or Henry will pay a major price. The Patriots Celtics and Bruins (And perhaps the Revs) will be the winners and the Red Sox franchise will suffer. I saw that happen in Baltimore when Angelos refused to spend even though they had the money.

[notin]

It's one incident. Hopefully he will learn from it. He'd better.

Also not sure why you're not giving him any credit on the attitude front for getting vaxed.

That was his most egregious but Duran has had more than one incident…

[mvp 78]

None of the Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins play in the summer months. Many if not most fans already support multiple teams…

And the Sox won't have to worry about eyeballs after the beginning of September.

[Elktonnick]

None of the Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins play in the summer months. Many if not most fans already support multiple teams…
True but they market year round. My family who still live in Boston tell me that the Red Sox brand is taking a big hit. Long time fans are losing interest. The demand for tickets on the secondary market has collapsed. Seasons ticket holders are giving up their seats. If I were Henry I would not be so cavalier about fan interest as you seem to be.

[notin]

I am. Henry has a real problem with his Boston fans. Selling Bogaerts without a major return of a unequivocal star player will really turn off Sox local fans. He has to remember he is competing with the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins for the hearts and minds of local fans. Right now most local fans are not happy with Henry's economy moves especially in view of his reported interest in helping Lebron James obtain an NBA franchise.


Who cares if Henry buys an NBA franchise? Nothing seems more shallow than telling Henry he has to spend his money on specific teams. The guys had spent several billion dollars over the years on our entertaining and still people cry out that he’s spending more to entertain someone else?

[mvp 78]

Who cares if Henry buys an NBA franchise? Nothing seems more shallow than telling Henry he has to spend his money on specific teams. The guys had spent several billion dollars over the years on our entertaining and still people cry out that he’s spending more to entertain someone else?

But not with LeBrOn JaMeS!

[Elktonnick]

Who cares if Henry buys an NBA franchise? Nothing seems more shallow than telling Henry he has to spend his money on specific teams. The guys had spent several billion dollars over the years on our entertaining and still people cry out that he’s spending more to entertain someone else?
I can see you are not sensitive to public relations. On one hand he wants the Red Sox to economize and spend less on putting a quality product on the field yet on the other hand he wants to spend beaucoup dollars to help an athlete who called Boston fans racists to buy a team to compete with their beloved Celtics. This is after his efforts to spend a fortune to buy an NHL team to compete with their beloved Bruins.
No wonder Liverpool fans hate Henry for his effort to destroy the English Premier League.

[Bellhorn04]

That was his most egregious but Duran has had more than one incident…

What was the next most egregious?

[Nick]

Betts is gone, I'm still a Sox fan. I'm not made at Henry at all.

[Bellhorn04]

The guys had spent several billion dollars over the years on our entertaining and still people cry out that he’s spending more to entertain someone else?

The several billion dollars does of course come from the people being entertained.

[Elktonnick]

The several billion dollars does of course come from the people being entertained.
I think that is a part of the issue. Henry increased his fortune because of Red Sox fans financial support and later from Liverpool fans. Now he is seen as depriving the Red Sox team of the financial resources to compete successfully. They consider that he is using these resources that should go to Boston to buy franchises to compete with Boston teams.
Moreover Boston fans see no reason for the economy moves with the Red Sox since except for the pandemic the Red Sox have been profitable as has NESN.

[JDavis76]

I think that is a part of the issue. Henry increased his fortune because of Red Sox fans financial support and later from Liverpool fans. Now he is seen as depriving the Red Sox team of the financial resources to compete successfully. They consider that he is using these resources that should go to Boston to buy franchises to compete with Boston teams.
Moreover Boston fans see no reason for the economy moves with the Red Sox since except for the pandemic the Red Sox have been profitable as has NESN.

Just because you repeat a lie over and over doesn't make it any more true. The fact is the sox have a top 6 payroll. Stop with the nonsense, they are not spending like the A's or the rays.

[dgalehouse]

I think that is a part of the issue. Henry increased his fortune because of Red Sox fans financial support and later from Liverpool fans. Now he is seen as depriving the Red Sox team of the financial resources to compete successfully. They consider that he is using these resources that should go to Boston to buy franchises to compete with Boston teams.
Moreover Boston fans see no reason for the economy moves with the Red Sox since except for the pandemic the Red Sox have been profitable as has NESN.

With John Henry as owner , the Sox broke the "curse " and have four championships. He certainly deserves at least part of the credit and our gratitude for that. That said , he does not come across as a very likable , down to earth guy. More like a cold , elitist snob. He made his fortune in hedge fund kind of money management. Not that there is anything wrong with that. For years ,he has soaked the paying fans with sky high ticket and concession prices. He chased the popular vendors away from their spots around Fenway. He seems to be uncomfortable with your average Sox fan. Now he seems to have other priorities. So , while I do appreciate the championships , I have to say that I really don't care much for the guy.

[Bellhorn04]

With John Henry as owner , the Sox broke the "curse " and have four championships. He certainly deserves at least part of the credit and our gratitude for that. That said , he does not come across as a very likable , down to earth guy. More like a cold , elitist snob. He made his fortune in hedge fund kind of money management. Not that there is anything wrong with that. For years ,he has soaked the paying fans with sky high ticket and concession prices. He chased the popular vendors away from their spots around Fenway. He seems to be uncomfortable with your average Sox fan. Now he seems to have other priorities. So , while I do appreciate the championships , I have to say that I really don't care much for the guy.

An honest question - which Red Sox owner or any other sports team owner do you find likable?

[JDavis76]

An honest question - which Red Sox owner or any other sports team owner do you find likable?

Aside from his political views, Mark Cuban seems like an alright guy to me. (No political debate needed)

[moonslav59]

Sox fans in Boston are super pissed at Henry. They will not tolerate any Betts type deal. You can postulate any number of possible scenarios but the bottom line is that any deal must be sold to the public. They will not be bought off with any rebuild kind of nonsense. This team was two games from the world series. The fans believe that Bloom Deconstructed the team. It was a false economy move.
All I am saying is they can not move Bogaerts without a quality return (And I do not mean a Trevor Story type) or Henry will pay a major price. The Patriots Celtics and Bruins (And perhaps the Revs) will be the winners and the Red Sox franchise will suffer. I saw that happen in Baltimore when Angelos refused to spend even though they had the money.

This team will not go cheap, like BAL did.

Fans will be pissed, but if they got over Betts, I'm not sure why Bogey would be the last straw.

Now, Betts, Bogey, then Devers, maybe, but only if fans think the team sucks and or is getting worse looking farther ahead.

To me, Betts leaving is 10 times worse than Bogey.

Devers leaving would be 8-10 times worse.

Fans get over crap like this.

Hell, we once traded Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Doubront and Miller all at once, and fans shut up after the ring a few years later.

[Bellhorn04]

This team will not go cheap, like BAL did.

Fans will be pissed, but if they got over Betts, I'm not sure why Bogey would be the last straw.

Now, Betts, Bogey, then Devers, maybe, but only if fans think the team sucks and or is getting worse looking farther ahead.

To me, Betts leaving is 10 times worse than Bogey.

Devers leaving would be 8-10 times worse.

Fans get over crap like this.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Some fans are still very pissed about Betts. And while Betts is not Babe Ruth, nobody ever got over that one.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Some fans are still very pissed about Betts. And while Betts is not Babe Ruth, nobody ever got over that one.

Winning a ring will work. Hell, 2021 shut a lot of people up.

My point is that Bogey is no Betts.

Yes, the cumulative effect will catch up to Henry, before too long, but seriously, If he keeps spending in the top 5-6, I'm not sure the bitching is warranted, unless we keep stinking up the joint.

[dgalehouse]

An honest question - which Red Sox owner or any other sports team owner do you find likable?

It is kind of hard to relate to any of these guys. Just off the top of my head , I think owners like Kraft , Cuban , Finley, Mara , Jones and even Steinbrenner ( George ) have/had more down to earth personalities that made them interesting and relatable. I could probably think of better examples with time. I guess , like many things , it's just a matter of opinion. I don't want to upset anybody , but I just don't much care for John Henry.

[moonslav59]

It is kind of hard to relate to any of these guys. Just off the top of my head , I think owners like Kraft , Cuban , Finley, Mara , Jones and even Steinbrenner ( George ) have/had more down to earth personalities that made them interesting and relatable. I could probably think of better examples with time. I guess , like many things , it's just a matter of opinion. I don't want to upset anybody , but I just don't much care for John Henry.

So, pricks are more down to earth?

[dgalehouse]

So, pricks are more down to earth?

Maybe , except for you.

[Bellhorn04]

To me the bottom line is whether you treat the fans fairly by trying to put a winning team on the field, and spending. I believe Henry has done both consistently.

The 2020 team might have been the first, and only, Red Sox team in the Henry era that obviously had no chance of making the playoffs going into the season.

I think a lot of Sox fans have been spoiled by success, just as it was predicted they would become once they broke through and won it all.

[Bellhorn04]

So, pricks are more down to earth?

To me Kraft is an example of someone who looks like a nice guy but is the farthest thing from it.

[Elktonnick]

To me the bottom line is whether you treat the fans fairly by trying to put a winning team on the field, and spending. I believe Henry has done both consistently.

The 2020 team might have been the first, and only, Red Sox team in the Henry era that obviously had no chance of making the playoffs going into the season.

I think a lot of Sox fans have been spoiled by success, just as it was predicted they would become once they broke through and won it all.
Kennedy said that there have been no discussions with any one about moving Bogaerts.
From what I understand Lou Merloni went on a real tirade against Bloom on Weei either today or yesterday who he said has no sense of urgency. Further more Merloni really dumped on Duran and Jeter Downs who he said have no business on any major league roster.
While I did not hear Merloni myself, I am told he said that the Sox have only four position players who belong on a major league team, Devers, Bogaerts, JDM and Vasquez.
Like I said Henry's recent moves are not sitting well in bean town.
The fact that Henry has brought 4 titles to Boston is yesterday's news.
Personally I would be surprised if Bloom makes any major effort to move any of the team's core stars at the deadline.

BTW Merloni was offered a broadcasting job with NESN before the 22 season but Merloni reportedly turned it down.

[Maxbialystock]

To me the bottom line is whether you treat the fans fairly by trying to put a winning team on the field, and spending. I believe Henry has done both consistently.

The 2020 team might have been the first, and only, Red Sox team in the Henry era that obviously had no chance of making the playoffs going into the season.

I think a lot of Sox fans have been spoiled by success, just as it was predicted they would become once they broke through and won it all.

While I can agree John Henry might not be a good guy in person, the fact that he is a coldhearted and successful businessman is probably why the Sox have been so successful under him. The scene at Fenway Park near the end of the movie Moneyball is probably not what really happened, but it does have a line that resonates when the John Henry character says that one of the nice things about having money is you don't have to do what everyone else is doing.

It is kind of amazing that, after an 86 year drought, the JH regime not only ended the Curse, but brought home more WS wins--4-- in those 20 or so seasons than any other team in MLB. During those same 20 years (2003 thru 2022) the Yankees and Dodgers, both franchises with bigger ballparks, bigger fanbases, and plenty of money, have combined for a total of 3 WS wins.

[Bellhorn04]

The fact that Henry has brought 4 titles to Boston is yesterday's news.

Yes, I realize that a lot of fans have that mentality. As a Red Sox fan since 1969, I think it's a spoiled and entitled attitude. What's the use of trying to win titles when fans only want more and are dissatisfied with anything less.

[Bellhorn04]

While I can agree John Henry might not be a good guy in person, the fact that he is a coldhearted and successful businessman is probably why the Sox have been so successful under him. The scene at Fenway Park near the end of the movie Moneyball is probably not what really happened, but it does have a line that resonates when the John Henry character says that one of the nice things about having money is you don't have to do what everyone else is doing.

It is kind of amazing that, after an 86 year drought, the JH regime not only ended the Curse, but brought home more WS wins--4-- in those 20 or so seasons than any other team in MLB. During those same 20 years (2003 thru 2022) the Yankees and Dodgers, both franchises with bigger ballparks, bigger fanbases, and plenty of money, have combined for a total of 3 WS wins.

Well said, Max.

[Elktonnick]

Yes, I realize that a lot of fans have that mentality. As a Red Sox fan since 1969, I think it's a spoiled and entitled attitude. What's the use of trying to win titles when fans only want more and are dissatisfied with anything less.

While all of what you said may be true., the Red Sox need fannies in the seats and eyeballs on the tube to be successful. Yesterdays success does not draw anyone to the game or to watch on tv.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Bloom's comments concern me:


“It almost felt to me like between (the Sale injury) and what happened over the weekend, it got to where everybody just wrote us off,” Bloom told NESN’s Tom Caron, as seen on the network’s pregame coverage. “I don’t think people should be writing us off. I think even just this season alone we’ve been in worst spots than this. I know we’re banged up, and losing Chris, I don’t want to minimize that, it’s meaningful, but we still have a lot of talent.
https://nesn.com/2022/07/chaim-bloom-believes-nobody-should-be-writing-off-red-sox/

Maybe it is just GM talk, but he actually thinks the Red Sox have a chance. Interesting how he refers to the injuries using them as an excuse. That's what a bad GM does, starts blaming other things besides his own decisions.

[dgalehouse]

There is no question that the Sox are still in the hunt for one of the wild cards. But as we near the end of July , they are a whopping 17 games behind the Yankees. I do think that is not too good or something to feel good about. Not a good job by any means.

[moonslav59]

Maybe , except for you.

Coming from you, that’s a compliment.

[moonslav59]

While I can agree John Henry might not be a good guy in person, the fact that he is a coldhearted and successful businessman is probably why the Sox have been so successful under him. The scene at Fenway Park near the end of the movie Moneyball is probably not what really happened, but it does have a line that resonates when the John Henry character says that one of the nice things about having money is you don't have to do what everyone else is doing.

It is kind of amazing that, after an 86 year drought, the JH regime not only ended the Curse, but brought home more WS wins--4-- in those 20 or so seasons than any other team in MLB. During those same 20 years (2003 thru 2022) the Yankees and Dodgers, both franchises with bigger ballparks, bigger fanbases, and plenty of money, have combined for a total of 3 WS wins.

I guess some people can never stop complaining.

4 rings. Period.

[Elktonnick]

I guess some people can never stop complaining.

4 rings. Period.
There was this restaurant that served the best seafood chowder. People would line up for their chowder. The restaurant always won awards for the best seafood chowder in Maryland. Well the chef wanted a raise. The owner refused. The chef took her recipe and left. After a year or so people stopped eating at that restaurant. It did not matter how many awards the restaurant had won through the years. Their new chowder was not very good. That's why the Howard House in Elkton MD was sold after a 100 years.

[moonslav59]

There was this restaurant that served the best seafood chowder. People would line up for their chowder. The restaurant always won awards for the best seafood chowder in Maryland. Well the chef wanted a raise. The owner refused. The chef took her recipe and left. After a year or so people stopped eating at that restaurant. It did not matter how many awards the restaurant had won through the years. Their new chowder was not very good. That's why the Howard House in Elkton MD was sold after a 100 years.

Maybe a Yawkey grandchild can buy the Sox from Henry and they can serve chowder in the stands.

[Elktonnick]

Maybe a Yawkey grandchild can buy the Sox from Henry and they can serve chowder in the stands.
They already serve chowder at Fenway but it is not as good as what they used to serve at the Howard House..

[moonslav59]

They already serve chowder at Fenway but it is not as good as what they used to serve at the Howard House..

I wish we could go back to the Sox before Henry. The chowder was better.

Got it.

[Elktonnick]

I wish we could go back to the Sox before Henry. The chowder was better.

Got it.

It clearly is not good now. That is what is important if you like chowder.

[Elktonnick]

Btw it was better before Bloom. In fact it was terrific in 2018 under DD. I couldn't get enough of it.

[Elktonnick]

Maybe a Yawkey grandchild can buy the Sox from Henry and they can serve chowder in the stands.
Oh before I forget Tom and Jean Yawkey.had no children.

[moonslav59]

It clearly is not good now. That is what is important if you like chowder.

The deadline is near. Maybe we can trade Henry for the Howard House Chowder Recipe and a cook to be named later.

[Elktonnick]

The deadline is near. Maybe we can trade Henry for the Howard House Chowder Recipe and a cook to be named later.

The way Bloom.is going they should throw him in the deal, but Sherry (that was the chef's name) probably won't give up her recipe at any price.

[notin]

Btw it was better before Bloom. In fact it was terrific in 2018 under DD. I couldn't get enough of it.

Yes it was. But that era created a lot of bills to pay. The Sox are still paying most of them…

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Oh before I forget Tom and Jean Yawkey.had no children.

If Tom's kids grew up to be like him, then that was probably a good thing.

[moonslav59]

If Tom's kids grew up to be like him, then that was probably a good thing.

Good?

https://bosoxinjection.com/2020/05/24/red-sox-controversial-figures-tom-yawkey/

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Not sure why we would go after John Henry after all he has done for the Red Sox. I get it, Betts isn't here and that sucks, but the Red Sox have one of the biggest payrolls in 2022 and are a last place team. Some of the blame has to fall on the general manager, the guy who went out of his way to go with a RF platoon of Jackie Bradley dipshit and Muslim Arroyo, not to mention the other areas of weakness on the 2022 team.

[moonslav59]

Not sure why we would go after John Henry after all he has done for the Red Sox. I get it, Betts isn't here and that sucks, but the Red Sox have one of the biggest payrolls in 2022 and are a last place team. Some of the blame has to fall on the general manager, the guy who went out of his way to go with a RF platoon of Jackie Bradley dipshit and Muslim Arroyo, not to mention the other areas of weakness on the 2022 team.

Greedy bastards.

We shoulda had 5-6 rings, not 4.

Fire Henry!!!

Ok, ok, I'm really going to bed, now.

[jad]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/07/red-sox-acquire-abraham-almonte-from-brewers.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

We're saved!!! Who needs Mookie? JD? Devers? Xander? We now have a 10-year veteran with a MiLB BA of .230.

[Bellhorn04]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/07/red-sox-acquire-abraham-almonte-from-brewers.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

We're saved!!! Who needs Mookie? JD? Devers? Xander? We now have a 10-year veteran with a MiLB BA of .230.

Nothing to be done, jad, my fellow (Samuel) Beckett fan. :)

[jacksonianmarch]

The crash after 2018 made it obvious that a builder was needed. The builder was so good at his job that he succeeded in building a team that went to the ALCS while rebuilding and restocking talent. My bet is the Sox are down for 2 years after this one and by 2025, they’ll be a deep force to be reckoned with…..if Henry allows it.

[cp176]

The crash after 2018 made it obvious that a builder was needed. The builder was so good at his job that he succeeded in building a team that went to the ALCS while rebuilding and restocking talent. My bet is the Sox are down for 2 years after this one and by 2025, they’ll be a deep force to be reckoned with…..if Henry allows it.

hmmm - I'm still looking for this amazing influx of talent that we can expect to be overwhelmed by. Remember that we Red Sox fans can overate our minor leaguers with the best of them. Currently they are unwatchable. I had more fun watching them in the early 60's. At least we could hit.

[mvp 78]

The crash after 2018 made it obvious that a builder was needed. The builder was so good at his job that he succeeded in building a team that went to the ALCS while rebuilding and restocking talent. My bet is the Sox are down for 2 years after this one and by 2025, they’ll be a deep force to be reckoned with…..if Henry allows it.

I'd prefer an owner that stays out of the way. No more Pablo/Hanley or Desperate Dave moves. Stay the course.

[jad]

Nothing to be done, jad, my fellow (Samuel) Beckett fan. :)

I'm expecting any minute now a boy with a child-like BLoomian face to appear telling us that surely 2023 will be the year.

[moonslav59]

hmmm - I'm still looking for this amazing influx of talent that we can expect to be overwhelmed by. Remember that we Red Sox fans can overate our minor leaguers with the best of them. Currently they are unwatchable. I had more fun watching them in the early 60's. At least we could hit.

Our farm has improved greatly, in part because several DD additions have risen farther than many of us expected, but nobody is saying the farm is where we think it needs to be, right now. Most of us know building a farm is not easy and takes time- usually a lot of time to do it right. We are not at the point where we can expect 2-3 significant farm additions every season. One expected to reach the bigs, this year (Casas) got hurt right at the wrong time.

Blowing up the farm to make a run for it this year seems to still be a pipe dream for a poster or two, but I think the rest of us realize a strong and deep farm is needed to sustain winning year after year. Even the Dodgers, who outspend everyone, always has a strong farm. Look at the Astros- same thing with the fram, not so much on big spending.

I'm not going to blame injuries. Other teams were hurt more than us, when we were winning, so maybe we were just due, but the fact is, half our team are AAA players filling in for injured players over this recent horrific stretch. Couple that with playing top competition was just too much for this team.

It seems blaming someone is the way of the land, so it's not unexpected to see the blame game is full force, these days. I guess, if it helps people deal with the frustration and move on, then that's the way it goes.

I don't blame Henry for easing up on spending from time to time. Overall, he keeps our budget top 5 or 6, every year. Does he make mistakes in hirings? Maybe, but each GM hire has led to a ring, not counting Bloom, who is still here and trying to get us there.

I don't blame Bloom, because I look at the context of the team/farm and budget limits he was handed. Has he made mistakes? Certainly. All GMs do. Has he done what his main priority had to have been: to build up the farm and roster depth to a point where we can compete? I'd say yes, despite this recent blip and the 10 & 20 start to the season. I'm fine with others disagreeing, and they have some strong points. I might oversimplify his time here as overachieving in '21 and underachieving in '22 while working a budget that includes $29M for Sale and $16M for Price, not to mention significant rbi drop offs by $22M JD and $20M Bogey and a decline from $17M Eovaldi. $24M Story is on him, but let's not pretend he built this budget or set his own limits.

I don't blame Cora, because I think he knows his shit and has shown an ability to get the most out of some mediocre rosters. He was king in 2018, but he's had challenges, since then. I think he was a big part of the rise in 2021, but he makes mistakes, too. This year's roster looked pretty close to '21's, and somehow we have fallen flat and lost our fundamentals. That is traditionally a manager's "blame area," so I don't think it's unfair to be critical of him, this year. I just don't "blame him."

I don't like singling out individual players on any team I root for. Of course, I get upset when a few fail, too often, or play like dopes, but it seems like a confluence of bad seasons has come upon us. Too many players have not lived up to expectations, all at once. I'm not going to name names, but certainly we can all point to a few guys as having let the team down, this year.

I guess, if I have to blame, I'd spread it around nearly evenly.

[jad]

I keep hearing this justification for JG/Bloom: we have the 6th highest payroll! But 3 of those higher than the RS are in first place, and the Padres are second behind LAD. Do you suppose there is a correlation between the money you spend and the quality of the team? (hmm... give me a minute). Or are we to start the triumphant chant: WE'RE NUMBER SIX!! WE'RE NUMBER SIX!! WE'RE NUMBER SIX!!

[sk7326]

Our farm has improved greatly, in part because several DD additions have risen farther than many of us expected, but nobody is saying the farm is where we think it needs to be, right now. Most of us know building a farm is not easy and takes time- usually a lot of time to do it right. We are not at the point where we can expect 2-3 significant farm additions every season. One expected to reach the bigs, this year (Casas) got hurt right at the wrong time.

Blowing up the farm to make a run for it this year seems to still be a pipe dream for a poster or two, but I think the rest of us realize a strong and deep farm is needed to sustain winning year after year. Even the Dodgers, who outspend everyone, always has a strong farm. Look at the Astros- same thing with the fram, not so much on big spending.

I'm not going to blame injuries. Other teams were hurt more than us, when we were winning, so maybe we were just due, but the fact is, half our team are AAA players filling in for injured players over this recent horrific stretch. Couple that with playing top competition was just too much for this team.

It seems blaming someone is the way of the land, so it's not unexpected to see the blame game is full force, these days. I guess, if it helps people deal with the frustration and move on, then that's the way it goes.

I don't blame Henry for easing up on spending from time to time. Overall, he keeps our budget top 5 or 6, every year. Does he make mistakes in hirings? Maybe, but each GM hire has led to a ring, not counting Bloom, who is still here and trying to get us there.

I don't blame Bloom, because I look at the context of the team/farm and budget limits he was handed. Has he made mistakes? Certainly. All GMs do. Has he done what his main priority had to have been: to build up the farm and roster depth to a point where we can compete? I'd say yes, despite this recent blip and the 10 & 20 start to the season. I'm fine with others disagreeing, and they have some strong points. I might oversimplify his time here as overachieving in '21 and underachieving in '22 while working a budget that includes $29M for Sale and $16M for Price, not to mention significant rbi drop offs by $22M JD and $20M Bogey and a decline from $17M Eovaldi. $24M Story is on him, but let's not pretend he built this budget or set his own limits.

I don't blame Cora, because I think he knows his shit and has shown an ability to get the most out of some mediocre rosters. He was king in 2018, but he's had challenges, since then. I think he was a big part of the rise in 2021, but he makes mistakes, too. This year's roster looked pretty close to '21's, and somehow we have fallen flat and lost our fundamentals. That is traditionally a manager's "blame area," so I don't think it's unfair to be critical of him, this year. I just don't "blame him."

I don't like singling out individual players on any team I root for. Of course, I get upset when a few fail, too often, or play like dopes, but it seems like a confluence of bad seasons has come upon us. Too many players have not lived up to expectations, all at once. I'm not going to name names, but certainly we can all point to a few guys as having let the team down, this year.

I guess, if I have to blame, I'd spread it around nearly evenly.

I think it is clear the rainbow is the Dodgers where they have a rich farm system but can use their financial hammer too. The Dodgers and the Red Sox indeed are both using Tampa Bay organizational best practices.

Really, ownership probably gets the lion's share of the blame - not because Henry did not spend money, but because his organizational priorities have fluctuated wildly and at times seems way way too responsive to what talk shows say about the team. After all, the team greenlighted David Price, a deal which went poorly (even acknowleding Price's yeoman work in the 2018 postseason) in some somewhat difficult to anticipate ways (his arm). Ownership greenlighted the Sale extension, a deal which looked shaky as it was happening. At the same time, the team gets weak kneed about paying a superstar for the superstar's superstar years - and then moves him to help get rid of Price.

I largely don't blame any of the GMs - they have all done jobs that ownership asked of them. Dombrowski drafted well and did a good job - and he did exactly what ownership wanted him to do. Bloom has done a nice job making some good value signings and bringing in more quality arms than the org has had in a while.

Cora is one of the league's best managers - but when you have to negotiate "Eovaldi, a Pavetta hot streak and hope" as your starting pitching, you can only conjure up so much magic.

But still, his era will come down to ownership priorities. If the team is not willing to pay Devers superstar prices for his superstar years - a team with Boston's $$ heft - then what are we doing here.

[Kimmi]

I almost feel like it's my obligation to come here and defend our beloved team, manager, GM, and owner included. It's been an extremely brutal 3 weeks, so I understand the criticism and the pessimism, but there's still a lot of baseball to be played.

And obviously, I am fighting a losing battle. :(

[Kimmi]

Like he instantly knew, it was Dugo's ball.

I have my doubts.

It looked to me, like he chose to pout. Just my opinion.

It didn't look good. I'm sure Cora spoke with him privately about it. Young players make mistakes. He's not the first player to not run out a play.

[JDavis76]

And obviously, I am fighting a losing battle. :(

It's tough to defend an inferior product

[Kimmi]

This is not a team that could contend for a WS ring. Even when Devers and JDM get back, we still are not capable one through nine and our depth is not there.. The real problem is pitching depth. We won last night with pitching, garnering only 6 hits against average pitching. I see Bloom as having made the choice to build the team for 2023 and beyond.

The way they are playing now, it doesn't look good. Yet, just a few short weeks ago, they looked like one of the best teams in baseball. People can say what they want about not being able to beat the AL East, but in baseball, things change in a heartbeat. If they can get healthy, they can contend.

[Kimmi]

I am. Henry has a real problem with his Boston fans. Selling Bogaerts without a major return of a unequivocal star player will really turn off Sox local fans. He has to remember he is competing with the Patriots, Celtics and Bruins for the hearts and minds of local fans. Right now most local fans are not happy with Henry's economy moves especially in view of his reported interest in helping Lebron James obtain an NBA franchise.

I don't see the Sox trading Bogaerts before the end of the season. But as I posted elsewhere, if they are going to trade JD and Eovaldi, they should trade Bogaerts as well.

[JDavis76]

The way they are playing now, it doesn't look good. Yet, just a few short weeks ago, they looked like one of the best teams in baseball. People can say what they want about not being able to beat the AL East, but in baseball, things change in a heartbeat. If they can get healthy, they can contend.

Two things.

First off, they never looked like the best team in baseball. If I recall correctly, over their hot streak they actually ended up one game further back of the Yanks than when it started.

Secondly, that hot streak just happened to coincide with the weakest part of their schedule, then reality set back in.

[Kimmi]

Betts is gone, I'm still a Sox fan. I'm not made at Henry at all.

100%

[Kimmi]

To me the bottom line is whether you treat the fans fairly by trying to put a winning team on the field, and spending. I believe Henry has done both consistently.

The 2020 team might have been the first, and only, Red Sox team in the Henry era that obviously had no chance of making the playoffs going into the season.

I think a lot of Sox fans have been spoiled by success, just as it was predicted they would become once they broke through and won it all.

1. I even think the 2020 team had a chance until we lost Sale and ERod.

2. Sadly, we have become everything that we disliked about the Yankees fanbase. IMO

[sk7326]

The way they are playing now, it doesn't look good. Yet, just a few short weeks ago, they looked like one of the best teams in baseball. People can say what they want about not being able to beat the AL East, but in baseball, things change in a heartbeat. If they can get healthy, they can contend.

If the city of Boston could be moved to the West Coast, the Red Sox would be a 110 win team.

Boston's record against >.500 teams

NYY: 4-6
TOR: 3-10
TB: 2-8
BAL: 3-5
CLE: 4-1
MIN: 2-2
CHW: 2-4
HOU: 2-1
SEA: 2-1
ATL: 1-1
STL: 2-1

12-29 against the East, 27-40 against >.500 teams. I guess a surge is possible - and the team deserves credit for feasting on the dregs of its schedule ... but woof

[Kimmi]

Btw it was better before Bloom. In fact it was terrific in 2018 under DD. I couldn't get enough of it.

The problem is, the model under Dombrowski is not sustainable. It's exactly what it turned out to be. Win now at the expense of the future.

[Kimmi]

The way Bloom.is going they should throw him in the deal, but Sherry (that was the chef's name) probably won't give up her recipe at any price.

My only hope is that Bloom, or more accurately Henry, doesn't panic and give in to the pressure. Stick with the plan, Bloom.

[Kimmi]

The crash after 2018 made it obvious that a builder was needed. The builder was so good at his job that he succeeded in building a team that went to the ALCS while rebuilding and restocking talent. My bet is the Sox are down for 2 years after this one and by 2025, they’ll be a deep force to be reckoned with…..if Henry allows it.

As with your last prediction of the Sox not being competitive until 2025, I think you'll be disappointingly surprised. But I do agree with your first two sentences. I also agree with the last part of your post that Henry must have patience and allow Bloom to carry on.

[Kimmi]

Two things.

First off, they never looked like the best team in baseball. If I recall correctly, over their hot streak they actually ended up one game further back of the Yanks than when it started.

Secondly, that hot streak just happened to coincide with the weakest part of their schedule, then reality set back in.

I said one the best teams. Can you argue against that?

I realize that the streak occurred against a weaker part of the schedule. I didn't expect them to continue playing the .769 ball that they played in June, but I think it's fair to say that they also shouldn't be playing the .273 ball that they've played in July. The Sox, even with their mostly AAA roster, are better than that.

[notin]

As with your last prediction of the Sox not being competitive until 2025, I think you'll be disappointingly surprised. But I do agree with your first two sentences. I also agree with the last part of your post that Henry must have patience and allow Bloom to carry on.

Jacko only acknowledges two strategies for non-Yankee teams. “All in” where you empty the farm for a grandiose postseason run, and “complete tear down” where you deal away any and every marketable asset in order to build for the long term future.

Teams rarely if ever do either one…

[Kimmi]

If the city of Boston could be moved to the West Coast, the Red Sox would be a 110 win team.

Boston's record against >.500 teams

NYY: 4-6
TOR: 3-10
TB: 2-8
BAL: 3-5
CLE: 4-1
MIN: 2-2
CHW: 2-4
HOU: 2-1
SEA: 2-1
ATL: 1-1
STL: 2-1

12-29 against the East, 27-40 against >.500 teams. I guess a surge is possible - and the team deserves credit for feasting on the dregs of its schedule ... but woof

I get it sk. I know what the team's records are against the stronger teams as opposed to the weaker teams. With as bad as the Sox are currently playing, they are only 3.5 games out. That gives reason for hope to make the postseason. In the postseason, anything can happen.

[Kimmi]

Jacko only acknowledges two strategies for non-Yankee teams. “All in” where you empty the farm for a grandiose postseason run, and “complete tear down” where you deal away any and every marketable asset in order to build for the long term future.

Teams rarely if ever do either one…

And those two strategies are the exact opposite of the reason why Bloom was brought on board.

[mvp 78]

I think it is clear the rainbow is the Dodgers where they have a rich farm system but can use their financial hammer too. The Dodgers and the Red Sox indeed are both using Tampa Bay organizational best practices.

Really, ownership probably gets the lion's share of the blame - not because Henry did not spend money, but because his organizational priorities have fluctuated wildly and at times seems way way too responsive to what talk shows say about the team. After all, the team greenlighted David Price, a deal which went poorly (even acknowleding Price's yeoman work in the 2018 postseason) in some somewhat difficult to anticipate ways (his arm). Ownership greenlighted the Sale extension, a deal which looked shaky as it was happening. At the same time, the team gets weak kneed about paying a superstar for the superstar's superstar years - and then moves him to help get rid of Price.

I largely don't blame any of the GMs - they have all done jobs that ownership asked of them. Dombrowski drafted well and did a good job - and he did exactly what ownership wanted him to do. Bloom has done a nice job making some good value signings and bringing in more quality arms than the org has had in a while.

Cora is one of the league's best managers - but when you have to negotiate "Eovaldi, a Pavetta hot streak and hope" as your starting pitching, you can only conjure up so much magic.

But still, his era will come down to ownership priorities. If the team is not willing to pay Devers superstar prices for his superstar years - a team with Boston's $$ heft - then what are we doing here.

This is a very good post.

[cp176]

I think it is clear the rainbow is the Dodgers where they have a rich farm system but can use their financial hammer too. The Dodgers and the Red Sox indeed are both using Tampa Bay organizational best practices.

Really, ownership probably gets the lion's share of the blame - not because Henry did not spend money, but because his organizational priorities have fluctuated wildly and at times seems way way too responsive to what talk shows say about the team. After all, the team greenlighted David Price, a deal which went poorly (even acknowleding Price's yeoman work in the 2018 postseason) in some somewhat difficult to anticipate ways (his arm). Ownership greenlighted the Sale extension, a deal which looked shaky as it was happening. At the same time, the team gets weak kneed about paying a superstar for the superstar's superstar years - and then moves him to help get rid of Price.

I largely don't blame any of the GMs - they have all done jobs that ownership asked of them. Dombrowski drafted well and did a good job - and he did exactly what ownership wanted him to do. Bloom has done a nice job making some good value signings and bringing in more quality arms than the org has had in a while.

Cora is one of the league's best managers - but when you have to negotiate "Eovaldi, a Pavetta hot streak and hope" as your starting pitching, you can only conjure up so much magic.

But still, his era will come down to ownership priorities. If the team is not willing to pay Devers superstar prices for his superstar years - a team with Boston's $$ heft - then what are we doing here.

i think that you are absolutely right on here.

[JDavis76]

I think it is clear the rainbow is the Dodgers where they have a rich farm system but can use their financial hammer too. The Dodgers and the Red Sox indeed are both using Tampa Bay organizational best practices.

Really, ownership probably gets the lion's share of the blame - not because Henry did not spend money, but because his organizational priorities have fluctuated wildly and at times seems way way too responsive to what talk shows say about the team. After all, the team greenlighted David Price, a deal which went poorly (even acknowleding Price's yeoman work in the 2018 postseason) in some somewhat difficult to anticipate ways (his arm). Ownership greenlighted the Sale extension, a deal which looked shaky as it was happening. At the same time, the team gets weak kneed about paying a superstar for the superstar's superstar years - and then moves him to help get rid of Price.

I largely don't blame any of the GMs - they have all done jobs that ownership asked of them. Dombrowski drafted well and did a good job - and he did exactly what ownership wanted him to do. Bloom has done a nice job making some good value signings and bringing in more quality arms than the org has had in a while.

Cora is one of the league's best managers - but when you have to negotiate "Eovaldi, a Pavetta hot streak and hope" as your starting pitching, you can only conjure up so much magic.

But still, his era will come down to ownership priorities. If the team is not willing to pay Devers superstar prices for his superstar years - a team with Boston's $$ heft - then what are we doing here.

He's disguised that pretty well this season.....

[moonslav59]

[QUOTE=sk7326;1482653]I think it is clear the rainbow is the Dodgers where they have a rich farm system but can use their financial hammer too. The Dodgers and the Red Sox indeed are both using Tampa Bay organizational best practices.

Don't forget the Astros, whose model may be closer to what Henry is striving for. 5 straight trips to the ALCS. They let many of their top stars walk.

[mvp 78]

[QUOTE=sk7326;1482653]I think it is clear the rainbow is the Dodgers where they have a rich farm system but can use their financial hammer too. The Dodgers and the Red Sox indeed are both using Tampa Bay organizational best practices.

Don't forget the Astros, whose model may be closer to what Henry is striving for. 5 straight trips to the ALCS. They let many of their top stars walk.

What is the Astros philosophy? Aside from tanking for high draft picks and stealing signals?

[moonslav59]

But still, his era will come down to ownership priorities. If the team is not willing to pay Devers superstar prices for his superstar years - a team with Boston's $$ heft - then what are we doing here.

No fan is a bigger cheerleader for bringing Devers back than me, but if they create a longer, more consistent method of building a winner without mega deals, and it works, I won't complain.

It does seem like a more sustainable plan, but yes, Henry should not keep jumping ship on methods, although it has always ended up turning into a ring.

[moonslav59]

[QUOTE=moonslav59;1482703]

What is the Astros philosophy? Aside from tanking for high draft picks and stealing signals?

They are run by a Tampa Bay dude, too. They have quietly pulled tqo within 2 games of the mighty Yanks.

They haven't had a high pick in a long time.

They traded Josh Fields for Yordan Alvarez. Framber Valdez was signed as an amateur FA- kinda like we hoped Bloom would do. I could go on.

The two guys they locked up longer term, Altuve & Bregman have not done great after signing, yet here they are.

[moonslav59]

It didn't look good. I'm sure Cora spoke with him privately about it. Young players make mistakes. He's not the first player to not run out a play.

No doubt. I said it wasn't all about one play.

Plus, we have 2 LF only OF'ers, and that hurts the team, if one plays somewhere else or wastes a bench slot. One should be gone by next year.