Cora is first half AL manager of the year

[jacksonianmarch]

I said it last year and he didn't win. I will say it again this year. Cora brought a ramshackle team to within 2 games of the WS last year. He watched as two of its biggest power threats left (Schwarber and Renfroe) and got replaced with wet noodle Bradley and Trevor Story in the lineup. His pen is made of swiss cheese. He never got a closer. He lost a reliable starter in ERod and was replaced with a guy who has been a juggs machine for the past 3 years (Wacha) and one of the only players in the league older than me in Hill. His team came out flat out of the gate. He has had stretches with 4 OD predicted starters on the IL and had to dip down into the depths of a pretty barren upper minors to fill in and he still has this team as a WC1. All the while, he has watched Kike go from AS caliber player to injured, Xander and JD lose their power, and Bobby D turn back into a windmill. And yet they still have fight, they still win games. The Yanks were poised to sweep them. Game 3 was a game they should have lost. Game 4, the Yanks had 2 4 run leads and instead, that team kept fighting. That is Cora. Doesn't matter how bad the team is, they will run through a wall for him. And for me, he edges out Boone as MOY in 2022. Boone is probably #2 but he hasnt had nearly the shit go wrong Cora has

[Bellhorn04]

Cora is my man, but I expect to see a fair amount of naysaying here too LOL

[mvp 78]

Cora is my man, but I expect to see a fair amount of naysaying here too LOL

If they weren't sooo horrendous in April...

[Kimmi]

I said it last year and he didn't win. I will say it again this year. Cora brought a ramshackle team to within 2 games of the WS last year. He watched as two of its biggest power threats left (Schwarber and Renfroe) and got replaced with wet noodle Bradley and Trevor Story in the lineup. His pen is made of swiss cheese. He never got a closer. He lost a reliable starter in ERod and was replaced with a guy who has been a juggs machine for the past 3 years (Wacha) and one of the only players in the league older than me in Hill. His team came out flat out of the gate. He has had stretches with 4 OD predicted starters on the IL and had to dip down into the depths of a pretty barren upper minors to fill in and he still has this team as a WC1. All the while, he has watched Kike go from AS caliber player to injured, Xander and JD lose their power, and Bobby D turn back into a windmill. And yet they still have fight, they still win games. The Yanks were poised to sweep them. Game 3 was a game they should have lost. Game 4, the Yanks had 2 4 run leads and instead, that team kept fighting. That is Cora. Doesn't matter how bad the team is, they will run through a wall for him. And for me, he edges out Boone as MOY in 2022. Boone is probably #2 but he hasnt had nearly the shit go wrong Cora has

Cora is my man as well, and I think he deserves a lot of credit. I have always believed that a manager has a large impact on the team in terms of what goes on off the field. I will add the controversy over non-vaccinated players not being able to play in Toronto as another issue that Cora has had to deal with.

At the same time, perhaps the Sox are doing as well as they are because they weren't as poorly constructed, including the 'barren upper minors' as you think they are.

[moonslav59]

Cora is my man as well, and I think he deserves a lot of credit. I have always believed that a manager has a large impact on the team in terms of what goes on off the field. I will add the controversy over non-vaccinated players not being able to play in Toronto as another issue that Cora has had to deal with.

At the same time, perhaps the Sox are doing as well as they are because they weren't as poorly constructed, including the 'barren upper minors' as you think they are.

I agree.

In 2021, Cora got credit for sticking with guys like Dalbec, Kike and Renfroe, who struggled early, but then he should get dinged for sticking with players like Dalbec, Diekman and others, this year.

Our 40 man roster is way stronger than 2020 and significantly stronger than 2021. This is the area Bloom addressed right out of the gate, and it shows.

Given a larger budget, Bloom was finally given the chance to address the top of the 26 man roster. So far, Story has been a letdown, despite his RBI total keeping him from being a total disaster out of the gate.

Wacha & Strahm carried us for a while. Last spring's waiver wire pick-up of Schreiber is looking like the type of "gems in the rough" finds the Rays were famous for making, when Bloom was there. Refsnyder is quickly proving to be a similar type find.

So far, we've seen 20 players get 3 or more PAs and 14 with 80 or more. The bottom 5 of those 14 have done much better than the bottom 5 of 2021.

PAs Player OPS
203 Cordero .713
127 Arroyo .640
101 Duran .763
91 Plawecki .487
80 Refsnyder .957

2021:
271 Marwin .567
173 Plawecki .737
136 Cordero .497
127 Santana .597
112 Duran .578
(+82 Chavis .549/ 75 Arauz .643)

The biggest gains have come from the SP'er pick-ups as compared to 2021's:

IP Pitcher ERA
2021
137 Richards 4.87
114 Perez 4.74
73 Whitlock 1.96
2022
71 R Hill 4.20
70 Wacha 2.69
36 Davis 2.48 (much pen than starter)

Pen
2021
62 Ottavino 4.21
53 Sawamura 3.06
37 Andriese 6.03 (DFA'd)
2022
36 Davis 2.48
31 Danish 4.02
31 Diekman 3.48
29 Schreiber 0.62
28 Strahm 3.58
25 Robles 5.84

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Cora is my man, but I expect to see a fair amount of naysaying here too LOL

Here, let me spew the misinformation, to spare us all later: he made Whitlock a starter, and used all those other crappy chokers in relief (the ones signed by his CBO), and played a bad outfielder at first base, and a back-up infielder in right field, and he still can't coach either how to catch a freaking pop-up.

[moonslav59]

Here, let me spew the misinformation, to spare us all later: he made Whitlock a starter, and used all those other crappy chokers in relief (the ones signed by his CBO), and played a bad outfielder at first base, and a back-up infielder in right field, and he still can't coach either how to catch a freaking pop-up.

How many more wins would we have had we played Dalbec at 1B FT, played Cordero in RF everytime Arroyo did, and gone with another crappy RP'er instead of the one he chose?

[mvp 78]

Here, let me spew the misinformation, to spare us all later: he made Whitlock a starter, and used all those other crappy chokers in relief (the ones signed by his CBO), and played a bad outfielder at first base, and a back-up infielder in right field, and he still can't coach either how to catch a freaking pop-up.

They should be able to catch a freaking pop-up before they meet Cora.

[moonslav59]

They should be able to catch a freaking pop-up before they meet Cora.

When none can catch a pop-up, how can Cora be blamed for choosing the wrong one?

[notin]

Hated and still hate all the Houck/Hill stuff. But there is no denying the results…

[moonslav59]

Hated and still hate all the Houck/Hill stuff. But there is no denying the results…

Did it work?

[Old Red]

Here, let me spew the misinformation, to spare us all later: he made Whitlock a starter, and used all those other crappy chokers in relief (the ones signed by his CBO), and played a bad outfielder at first base, and a back-up infielder in right field, and he still can't coach either how to catch a freaking pop-up.

As you know my biggest complaint about Cora was to not make Whitlock the closer on day 1, and I’ll still contend that the Red Sox would have a better record if they did. I’m still not sold on Houck as the closer now, but I think he’s their best option at the moment, but it took Cora way to long to make it happen. Using Franchy Strange Glove at 1B, and Arroyo in RF I blame Bloom more for that, but Cora gets some blame as well. Outside of that with all the injuries they have had to the starting staff I think he has done a decent job to get them in postseason contention at the moment. If they make it good job, but if not to much time was spent figuring out the backend of the bullpen.

[harmony]

What about Seattle manager Scott Servais, whose team would be in the postseason for the first time since 2001 if the season ended today?

Three weeks ago the Mariners fell 10 games under .500 at 29-39 after losing four of five at home to the lowly Los Angeles Angels. Seattle has since won 16 of 19 as the M's await the returns of Mitch Haniger, Kyle Lewis, Jesse Winker and Taylor Trammell.

With an Opening Day payroll that ranked 22nd at about $94 million, the Mariners trail the Red Sox by two games with a projected easier schedule the remainder of the year.

[moonslav59]

What about Seattle manager Scott Servais, whose team would be in the postseason for the first time since 2001 if the season ended today?

Three weeks ago the Mariners fell 10 games under .500 at 29-39 after losing four of five at home to the lowly Los Angeles Angels. Seattle has since won 16 of 19 as the M's await the returns of Mitch Haniger, Kyle Lewis, Jesse Winker and Taylor Trammell.

With an Opening Day payroll of about $94 million that ranked 22nd, the Mariners trail the Red Sox by two games with a projected easier schedule the remainder of the year.

Maybe manager of the last 19 games of the year award.

[mvp 78]

Did it work?

Hill/Houck Piggyback Games
4/24 TBR Loss 2-5 (loss due to Valdez, not due to piggyback)
4/29 BAL Win 3-1
5/5 LAA Loss 0-8 (Houck gave up 7 runs)
5/19 SEA Loss 2-6 (Hill stunk early)
5/25 CHW Loss 1-3 (Sox had nearly twice the amount of runners and couldn't score)

It's hard to say if it was a great success. Quite the mixed bag. I think I would have personally rather just seen Houck in the closer's role or as a starter rather than just lumped in with hill.

[mvp 78]

What about Seattle manager Scott Servais, whose team would be in the postseason for the first time since 2001 if the season ended today?

Three weeks ago the Mariners fell 10 games under .500 at 29-39 after losing four of five at home to the lowly Los Angeles Angels. Seattle has since won 16 of 19 as the M's await the returns of Mitch Haniger, Kyle Lewis, Jesse Winker and Taylor Trammell.

With an Opening Day payroll that ranked 22nd at about $94 million, the Mariners trail the Red Sox by two games with a projected easier schedule the remainder of the year.

They needed to expand the playoffs by how many slots to sneak the Mariners in?

[Old Red]

Hill/Houck Piggyback Games
4/24 TBR Loss 2-5 (loss due to Valdez, not due to piggyback)
4/29 BAL Win 3-1
5/5 LAA Loss 0-8 (Houck gave up 7 runs)
5/19 SEA Loss 2-6 (Hill stunk early)
5/25 CHW Loss 1-3 (Sox had nearly twice the amount of runners and couldn't score)

It's hard to say if it was a great success. Quite the mixed bag. I think I would have personally rather just seen Houck in the closer's role or as a starter rather than just lumped in with hill.

Two bad inventions. Openers, and piggybackers.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Two bad inventions. Openers, and piggybackers.

Cora invented neither. But I'm sure you know most organizations now make staff decisions based on entire departments that analyze the successes and failures of other trend-setters. Not too many Joe Morgan hunches or Grady Little refusals allowed any more...

If you want to blame him for agreeing to keep an open mind about other teams' ways -- or just agreeing in order to keep his job -- then have at it.

[mvp 78]

Two bad inventions. Openers, and piggybackers.

I think the opener idea is fine because it still allows you to use the opener throughout the week. He can still keep his normal relief workload. With Houck, if you're going to truly piggyback him with Hill, it prevents him from pitching the rest of the week. At most, maybe you get one other brief appearance out of him a few days later. If he's going 4 innings, just start him? It's like carrying 6 starters for a 5 man rotation. Doesn't seem to be the best use of a limited roster. Maybe it made sense early in the season when they could store extra players and they were just coming out of Spring Training?

[Maxbialystock]

As you know my biggest complaint about Cora was to not make Whitlock the closer on day 1, and I’ll still contend that the Red Sox would have a better record if they did. I’m still not sold on Houck as the closer now, but I think he’s their best option at the moment, but it took Cora way to long to make it happen. Using Franchy Strange Glove at 1B, and Arroyo in RF I blame Bloom more for that, but Cora gets some blame as well. Outside of that with all the injuries they have had to the starting staff I think he has done a decent job to get them in postseason contention at the moment. If they make it good job, but if not to much time was spent figuring out the backend of the bullpen.

I love it!!! Whitlock has exactly 1+ MLB seasons, 59 games, 122 IP, and zero, repeat, zero experience as a closer. Given that Whitlock had never closed before this season, no manager would have made him the closer on day 1.

At this point it's pretty obvious Cora has two much better choices to close: Houck, who won the position last month with 6 saves and no blown saves; and Schreiber, who statistically is probably the best reliever the Sox have had in years with an ERA of .62, a WHIP of .62, and a WAR (despite pitching just 29 innings) of +1.9 (3d highest on the team after Wacha and Pivetta).

Whitlock has the repertoire to be a starter. We saw that last year when he relieved for multiple innings. So, on a team that was desperate for starters at the beginning of the season, it made sense to give him a shot. His WAR to date, mostly based on starts, is +.9--not far off Eovaldi's (who has pitched 68 innings to Whitlock's 48) +1.3 and better than Hill's (with 70 IP) +.3.

So, contend all you want to, but there is zero evidence Whitlock as the closer from day 1 would have turned this season around. A better argument could be made that Cora took too long to give Houck the job, but Houck was also very effective--as Whitlock was last year--pitching 2 or more innings in relief.

[Old Red]

Cora invented neither. But I'm sure you know most organizations now make staff decisions based on entire departments that analyze the successes and failures of other trend-setters. Not too many Joe Morgan hunches or Grady Little refusals allowed any more...

If you want to blame him for agreeing to keep an open mind about other teams' ways -- or just agreeing in order to keep his job -- then have at it.

Never said Cora invented either, and the biggest thing I blame Cora for was to figure out the backend of the BP well before game 50+, or so.

[Maxbialystock]

Hill/Houck Piggyback Games
4/24 TBR Loss 2-5 (loss due to Valdez, not due to piggyback)
4/29 BAL Win 3-1
5/5 LAA Loss 0-8 (Houck gave up 7 runs)
5/19 SEA Loss 2-6 (Hill stunk early)
5/25 CHW Loss 1-3 (Sox had nearly twice the amount of runners and couldn't score)

It's hard to say if it was a great success. Quite the mixed bag. I think I would have personally rather just seen Houck in the closer's role or as a starter rather than just lumped in with hill.

I like the idea of Houck and Hill pitching in the same game, and I don't think Houck has the repertoire to start. But I agree with you that moving into the closer job was the best fit and probably should have happened sooner.

[Old Red]

I love it!!! Whitlock has exactly 1+ MLB seasons, 59 games, 122 IP, and zero, repeat, zero experience as a closer. Given that Whitlock had never closed before this season, no manager would have made him the closer on day 1.

At this point it's pretty obvious Cora has two much better choices to close: Houck, who won the position last month with 6 saves and no blown saves; and Schreiber, who statistically is probably the best reliever the Sox have had in years with an ERA of .62, a WHIP of .62, and a WAR (despite pitching just 29 innings) of +1.9 (3d highest on the team after Wacha and Pivetta).

Whitlock has the repertoire to be a starter. We saw that last year when he relieved for multiple innings. So, on a team that was desperate for starters at the beginning of the season, it made sense to give him a shot. His WAR to date, mostly based on starts, is +.9--not far off Eovaldi's (who has pitched 68 innings to Whitlock's 48) +1.3 and better than Hill's (with 70 IP) +.3.

So, contend all you want to, but there is zero evidence Whitlock as the closer from day 1 would have turned this season around. A better argument could be made that Cora took too long to give Houck the job, but Houck was also very effective--as Whitlock was last year--pitching 2 or more innings in relief.

You’ve given the same speel about Whitlock many times over, which we disagree on. Everyone has to start somewhere to be a closer rather it’s Pap, or Barnes, or Eck, or Smoltz just to name a few not named Houck. Whitlock would not have been in the rotation if Frail hadn’t gotten hurt, and only then when Houck wasn’t vaxed the first trip into Toronto. Once again your exaggerated account by saying Whitlock being the closer from day 1 would have turned the season around, because no one said that, but I still say the Red Sox would have more wins from blowing those late leads early in the season.

[mvp 78]

I like the idea of Houck and Hill pitching in the same game, and I don't think Houck has the repertoire to start. But I agree with you that moving into the closer job was the best fit and probably should have happened sooner.

Yes, without the 3rd pitch, he may not be a great fit for a starter's role. I thought in ST they should have transitioned Whitlock to SP and Houck to closer. We may get there eventually? Someday?

[moonslav59]

Hill/Houck Piggyback Games
4/24 TBR Loss 2-5 (loss due to Valdez, not due to piggyback)
4/29 BAL Win 3-1
5/5 LAA Loss 0-8 (Houck gave up 7 runs)
5/19 SEA Loss 2-6 (Hill stunk early)
5/25 CHW Loss 1-3 (Sox had nearly twice the amount of runners and couldn't score)

It's hard to say if it was a great success. Quite the mixed bag. I think I would have personally rather just seen Houck in the closer's role or as a starter rather than just lumped in with hill.

I think when you factor in not having Houck as the closer during this stretch, one could argue it was a failure.

We'll never know, if Houck would have done better than the closer by committee did, but it's hard ti imagine him doing any worse.

[Maxbialystock]

You’ve given the same speel about Whitlock many times over, which we disagree on. Everyone has to start somewhere to be a closer rather it’s Pap, or Barnes, or Eck, or Smoltz just to name a few not named Houck. Whitlock would not have been in the rotation if Frail hadn’t gotten hurt, and only then when Houck wasn’t vaxed the first trip into Toronto. Once again your exaggerated account by saying Whitlock being the closer from day 1 would have turned the season around, because no one said that, but I still say the Red Sox would have more wins from blowing those late leads early in the season.

Agree "turned the season around" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your version gives the Sox several uncounted wins instead of losses. Is it 8? If so, that puts the Sox neck and neck with the Astros for 2d best record in the AL and--you're going to just love this--4 games behind the Yankees. If you convert 1 of the losses to the Yankees, the margin is 3 games.

I completely agree a closer has to start sometime, but would challenge you to find just one who started closing on the first day (or first closeable game) of a season. Last season was Whitlock's first ever in MLB. And, for the record, he had 2 saves and 3 blown saves without ever being a closer.

At the beginning of the season Barnes and Robles had the experience as closers. Indeed, in the first game of the season, April 8, Whitlock was a reliever who pitched 2.1 innings and gave up 1 run. The 9th inning pitcher was--wait for it--Robles, who pitched a scoreless 9th. Then Dieckman and Brasier gave up the 1 unearned run in the 10th and Crawford the winning unearned run in the 11.

In his very next game, April 12, Whitlock pitched 4 scoreless innings in relief and the Sox beat the Tigers. Three outings later, April 23, he pitched 4 more scoreless innings as the starter vs. the Rays, a game the Sox lost in the 10th when Robles gave up an unearned run after the Sox failed to score (with a man on 2b) in the top of the 10th.

Indeed, for the month of April Whitlock pitched 16.2 innings--against the Yankees, Twins, Jays, Rays, and Tigers--while giving up 1 earned run for an ERA of 0.54. The Sox won 3 of those 6 games, and could have won 2 others (3-2 to the Rays and 1-0 to the Jays) if the Sox hitting had been better.

And you claim that Cora the idiot misused Whitlock in April? Do you even look at actual facts before you sound off? No, you don't. You simply make stuff up.

[moonslav59]

Agree "turned the season around" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your version gives the Sox several uncounted wins instead of losses. Is it 8? If so, that puts the Sox neck and neck with the Astros for 2d best record in the AL and--you're going to just love this--4 games behind the Yankees. If you convert 1 of the losses to the Yankees, the margin is 3 games.

I completely agree a closer has to start sometime, but would challenge you to find just one who started closing on the first day (or first closeable game) of a season. Last season was Whitlock's first ever in MLB. And, for the record, he had 2 saves and 3 blown saves without ever being a closer.

At the beginning of the season Barnes and Robles had the experience as closers. Indeed, in the first game of the season, April 8, Whitlock was a reliever who pitched 2.1 innings and gave up 1 run. The 9th inning pitcher was--wait for it--Robles, who pitched a scoreless 9th. Then Dieckman and Brasier gave up the 1 unearned run in the 10th and Crawford the winning unearned run in the 11.

In his very next game, April 12, Whitlock pitched 4 scoreless innings in relief and the Sox beat the Tigers. Three outings later, April 23, he pitched 4 more scoreless innings as the starter vs. the Rays, a game the Sox lost in the 10th when Robles gave up an unearned run after the Sox failed to score (with a man on 2b) in the top of the 10th.

Indeed, for the month of April Whitlock pitched 16.2 innings--against the Yankees, Twins, Jays, Rays, and Tigers--while giving up 1 earned run for an ERA of 0.54. The Sox won 3 of those 6 games, and could have won 2 others (3-2 to the Rays and 1-0 to the Jays) if the Sox hitting had been better.

And you claim that Cora the idiot misused Whitlock in April? Do you even look at actual facts before you sound off? No, you don't. You simply make stuff up.

It's all "eye test."

[notin]

Did it work?

I can argue that it didn’t…

[Kimmi]

I agree.

In 2021, Cora got credit for sticking with guys like Dalbec, Kike and Renfroe, who struggled early, but then he should get dinged for sticking with players like Dalbec, Diekman and others, this year.

Our 40 man roster is way stronger than 2020 and significantly stronger than 2021. This is the area Bloom addressed right out of the gate, and it shows.

Given a larger budget, Bloom was finally given the chance to address the top of the 26 man roster. So far, Story has been a letdown, despite his RBI total keeping him from being a total disaster out of the gate.

Wacha & Strahm carried us for a while. Last spring's waiver wire pick-up of Schreiber is looking like the type of "gems in the rough" finds the Rays were famous for making, when Bloom was there. Refsnyder is quickly proving to be a similar type find.

So far, we've seen 20 players get 3 or more PAs and 14 with 80 or more. The bottom 5 of those 14 have done much better than the bottom 5 of 2021.

PAs Player OPS
203 Cordero .713
127 Arroyo .640
101 Duran .763
91 Plawecki .487
80 Refsnyder .957

2021:
271 Marwin .567
173 Plawecki .737
136 Cordero .497
127 Santana .597
112 Duran .578
(+82 Chavis .549/ 75 Arauz .643)

The biggest gains have come from the SP'er pick-ups as compared to 2021's:

IP Pitcher ERA
2021
137 Richards 4.87
114 Perez 4.74
73 Whitlock 1.96
2022
71 R Hill 4.20
70 Wacha 2.69
36 Davis 2.48 (much pen than starter)

Pen
2021
62 Ottavino 4.21
53 Sawamura 3.06
37 Andriese 6.03 (DFA'd)
2022
36 Davis 2.48
31 Danish 4.02
31 Diekman 3.48
29 Schreiber 0.62
28 Strahm 3.58
25 Robles 5.84



Good info Moon.

Bloom is not making any loud splashes (other than Story), but that doesn't mean he hasn't put together a good team with some pretty good depth.

[Kimmi]

What about Seattle manager Scott Servais, whose team would be in the postseason for the first time since 2001 if the season ended today?

Three weeks ago the Mariners fell 10 games under .500 at 29-39 after losing four of five at home to the lowly Los Angeles Angels. Seattle has since won 16 of 19 as the M's await the returns of Mitch Haniger, Kyle Lewis, Jesse Winker and Taylor Trammell.

With an Opening Day payroll that ranked 22nd at about $94 million, the Mariners trail the Red Sox by two games with a projected easier schedule the remainder of the year.

You have to be excited about your Mariners!

Servais certainly deserves consideration for MOY at this point in the year.

[Kimmi]

Two bad inventions. Openers, and piggybackers.

Ditto. I am not a fan of either one.

[Old Red]

Agree "turned the season around" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your version gives the Sox several uncounted wins instead of losses. Is it 8? If so, that puts the Sox neck and neck with the Astros for 2d best record in the AL and--you're going to just love this--4 games behind the Yankees. If you convert 1 of the losses to the Yankees, the margin is 3 games.

I completely agree a closer has to start sometime, but would challenge you to find just one who started closing on the first day (or first closeable game) of a season. Last season was Whitlock's first ever in MLB. And, for the record, he had 2 saves and 3 blown saves without ever being a closer.

At the beginning of the season Barnes and Robles had the experience as closers. Indeed, in the first game of the season, April 8, Whitlock was a reliever who pitched 2.1 innings and gave up 1 run. The 9th inning pitcher was--wait for it--Robles, who pitched a scoreless 9th. Then Dieckman and Brasier gave up the 1 unearned run in the 10th and Crawford the winning unearned run in the 11.

In his very next game, April 12, Whitlock pitched 4 scoreless innings in relief and the Sox beat the Tigers. Three outings later, April 23, he pitched 4 more scoreless innings as the starter vs. the Rays, a game the Sox lost in the 10th when Robles gave up an unearned run after the Sox failed to score (with a man on 2b) in the top of the 10th.

Indeed, for the month of April Whitlock pitched 16.2 innings--against the Yankees, Twins, Jays, Rays, and Tigers--while giving up 1 earned run for an ERA of 0.54. The Sox won 3 of those 6 games, and could have won 2 others (3-2 to the Rays and 1-0 to the Jays) if the Sox hitting had been better.

And you claim that Cora the idiot misused Whitlock in April? Do you even look at actual facts before you sound off? No, you don't. You simply make stuff up.

I’m not agreeing with you that Cora is a IDIOT, nor have I called him one. Moon said I hated Cora, and that wasn’t true either, so on both counts FAKE NEWS. You two are quite a twosome making stuff up.

[Old Red]

It's all "eye test."

Your eyes must not be very good to need all kinds of stats to know what’s going on.

[notin]

Your eyes must not be very good to need all kinds of stats to know what’s going on.

Yes, make fun of people with vision problems…

[moonslav59]

Yes, make fun of people with vision problems…



It's stats and reading from a computer screen that gives me difficulty. I can see the game fine from my 60 inch screen.

It's not stats that are Red's issue, it's stats he doesn't like.

He uses BA. He uses RBIs. He uses sample sizes that fit his position, like we all do, but don't use OPS, OBP, SLG or dare use WAR. DRS or UZR/150 or the like.

Only his stats matter.

[Old Red]

Yes, make fun of people with vision problems…

Nothing to do with vision problems, but the need for analytics to know what’s going on. 20-20 vision is no good if you don’t use it.

[Old Red]

It's stats and reading from a computer screen that gives me difficulty. I can see the game fine from my 60 inch screen.

It's not stats that are Red's issue, it's stats he doesn't like.

He uses BA. He uses RBIs. He uses sample sizes that fit his position, like we all do, but don't use OPS, OBP, SLG or dare use WAR. DRS or UZR/150 or the like.

Only his stats matter.



Tell the whole story that it’s not just the use of the old standard BA, RBI, and HR, but digging deeper to see what they really mean like Schwarber, and his 28 HR would probably have more RBI if he batted down lower in the order, and same with Mookie, so there is more to it than just scratching the surface, and no it’s not only my stats matter, but that I don’t need all your stats to know what’s going on that for some reason is something you don’t like, or understand. It’s NOT, or has anything to do with not liking all the stats that you do,so I don’t know where you got the idea i don’t like them. I just don’t need them. Nothing wrong with how I do it, and nothing wrong with how you do it. I do use OBP though.

[moonslav59]

And for me, he edges out Boone as MOY in 2022. Boone is probably #2 but he hasnt had nearly the shit go wrong Cora has

I'm not sure either one deserves it.

[Maxbialystock]

I’m not agreeing with you that Cora is a IDIOT, nor have I called him one. Moon said I hated Cora, and that wasn’t true either, so on both counts FAKE NEWS. You two are quite a twosome making stuff up.

I'm happy to be wrong on this point. "Idiot" is no doubt an exaggeration. So, please enlighten me. What have you said about Cora that is in any way positive?

[moonslav59]

I'm happy to be wrong on this point. "Idiot" is no doubt an exaggeration. So, please enlighten me. What have you said about Cora that is in any way positive?

Don't hold your breath.

[Maxbialystock]

I’m not agreeing with you that Cora is a IDIOT, nor have I called him one. Moon said I hated Cora, and that wasn’t true either, so on both counts FAKE NEWS. You two are quite a twosome making stuff up.

One thing I grant you is the uncanny ability to ignore specific examples of how you just might have been wrong about Whitlock this year--and divert everyone's attention by focusing on the word "idiot."

Thus this syllogism: Whitlock should have been the Sox closer on the first day of the 2022 season; he has yet to be the closer over halfway through the season and in fact spent most of it as a starter; Cora is the reason for this big misdeed; I (Old Red) have never said anything disparaging about Cora.

[moonslav59]

One thing I grant you is the uncanny ability to ignore specific examples of how you just might have been wrong about Whitlock this year--and divert everyone's attention by focusing on the word "idiot."

Thus this syllogism: Whitlock should have been the Sox closer on the first day of the 2022 season; he has yet to be the closer over halfway through the season and in fact spent most of it as a starter; Cora is the reason for this big misdeed; I (Old Red) have never said anything disparaging about Cora.

I can't remember any good being said, but maybe there was a moment or two, here and there...

[notin]

I'm happy to be wrong on this point. "Idiot" is no doubt an exaggeration. So, please enlighten me. What have you said about Cora that is in any way positive?

Are you asking Old Red to clarify something? That never goes over well…

[Old Red]

One thing I grant you is the uncanny ability to ignore specific examples of how you just might have been wrong about Whitlock this year--and divert everyone's attention by focusing on the word "idiot."

Thus this syllogism: Whitlock should have been the Sox closer on the first day of the 2022 season; he has yet to be the closer over halfway through the season and in fact spent most of it as a starter; Cora is the reason for this big misdeed; I (Old Red) have never said anything disparaging about Cora.

I hope you have some cheese with all that WHINE. To all my buddies especially Moon who’s head I must live in, because I don’t go a day without being mentioned in one of his articles, and some times it’s article to article, and believe me Moon’s head is not where anyone wants to be, but I’m going out, and chase whales around for a couple of days, so keep an eye on things for me, and I’ll see you when I get back. Hopefully the Sox can salvage the rest of this series. As usual as Mick Foley would say Have a Good Day.

[Bellhorn04]

I hope you have some cheese with all that WHINE. To all my buddies especially Moon who’s head I must live in, because I don’t go a day without being mentioned in one of his articles, and some times it’s article to article, and believe me Moon’s head is not where anyone wants to be, but I’m going out, and chase whales around for a couple of days, so keep an eye on things for me, and I’ll see you when I get back. Hopefully the Sox can salvage the rest of this series. As usual as Mick Foley would say Have a Good Day.

Captain Ahab?

[Old Red]

Captain Ahab?

More like Capt. Crunch.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

Captain Ahab?

Fernando Abad pitcher?

[Bellhorn04]

Fernando Abad pitcher?

Yes, he was.

[Kimmi]

Your eyes must not be very good to need all kinds of stats to know what’s going on.

The thing about the eye test is that your eyes will mislead you. Not all the time, but often enough. I'm not trying to in any way imply that you don't know baseball or that you don't know what you're seeing, it's just a fact of human nature. It happens with everyone. Stats are needed.

[Bellhorn04]

The thing about the eye test is that your eyes will mislead you. Not all the time, but often enough. I'm not trying to in any way imply that you don't know baseball or that you don't know what you're seeing, it's just a fact of human nature. It happens with everyone. Stats are needed.

No one has ever relied completely on the eye test. Even old schoolers looked at batting averages, earned run averages, fielding percentages, whatever. We just have more refined (and in some cases trickier) stats now.

[moonslav59]

The thing about the eye test is that your eyes will mislead you. Not all the time, but often enough. I'm not trying to in any way imply that you don't know baseball or that you don't know what you're seeing, it's just a fact of human nature. It happens with everyone. Stats are needed.

The other thing about the "eye test" is that hardly anyone watches other games, besides the Sox, and nobody watched every play of every MLB game, so it's hard to know comparative value of anyone without stats or metrics to help with personal observations.

Stats can be deceiving.
Stats can be cherry-picked to suit your purposes.
Stats can miss the big picture or another aspect of player value or non value.
Stats don't lie, though.

It always gets me when an eye test guy says something like, "so-and-so has been in an awful slump, lately," and you show some stats that show the guy has a .900 OPS over the last week, and .850 over the last 2 weeks, and an .800 over the last month, and they still stick to their beliefs.

Sure, some of those hits, in that time period, might have been lame, of the players has made outs every key situation during that time, but facts are facts.

[Kimmi]

No one has ever relied completely on the eye test. Even old schoolers looked at batting averages, earned run averages, fielding percentages, whatever. We just have more refined (and in some cases trickier) stats now.

Understood. No one has to use stats if they don't want to, traditional or refined. I understand that there a lot of people who do not like advanced stats. As a fan of advanced stats, I am going to defend those of us who use them. :)

[moonslav59]

No one has ever relied completely on the eye test. Even old schoolers looked at batting averages, earned run averages, fielding percentages, whatever. We just have more refined (and in some cases trickier) stats now.

Yes, and I made that point earlier. It's not usually about stats vs the eye test, it's about specific stats or metrics being used that a particular poster does not like, trust or understand, fully.

Some of the "trickier" stats involve defense and the full array of a catcher's duties and influences. Fldg% and eye tests are so severely flawed that criticizing the flaws of DRS and UZR, of which there are many faults, really rings hollow, to me.

[moonslav59]

Understood. No one has to use stats if they don't want to, traditional or refined. I understand that there a lot of people who do not like advanced stats. As a fan of advanced stats, I am going to defend those of us who use them. :)

Careful. You'll be linked with the posse.

[Kimmi]

The other thing about the "eye test" is that hardly anyone watches other games, besides the Sox, and nobody watched every play of every MLB game, so it's hard to know comparative value of anyone without stats or metrics to help with personal observations.

Stats can be deceiving.
Stats can be cherry-picked to suit your purposes.
Stats can miss the big picture or another aspect of player value or non value.
Stats don't lie, though.

It always gets me when an eye test guy says something like, "so-and-so has been in an awful slump, lately," and you show some stats that show the guy has a .900 OPS over the last week, and .850 over the last 2 weeks, and an .800 over the last month, and they still stick to their beliefs.

Sure, some of those hits, in that time period, might have been lame, of the players has made outs every key situation during that time, but facts are facts.

Agreed. The more information you look at, including the eye test, the better the assessment you will be able to get, and the better the understanding of what is going on.

As I said, I understand that advanced stats are not for everyone and that's okay. When having discussions/debates on a message board, however, I not only think they are fair game, but I also think they are necessary.

[Kimmi]

Careful. You'll be linked with the posse.

According to some poster, I don't remember who, I once had a posse, but don't remember who was in that posse.

I would be honored to be a member of the advanced stats posse.

[mvp 78]

According to some poster, I don't remember who, I once had a posse, but don't remember who was in that posse.

I would be honored to be a member of the advanced stats posse.

The Insane Kimmie Posse.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I agree.

In 2021, Cora got credit for sticking with guys like Dalbec, Kike and Renfroe, who struggled early, but then he should get dinged for sticking with players like Dalbec, Diekman and others, this year.

Our 40 man roster is way stronger than 2020 and significantly stronger than 2021. This is the area Bloom addressed right out of the gate, and it shows.

Given a larger budget, Bloom was finally given the chance to address the top of the 26 man roster. So far, Story has been a letdown, despite his RBI total keeping him from being a total disaster out of the gate.

Wacha & Strahm carried us for a while. Last spring's waiver wire pick-up of Schreiber is looking like the type of "gems in the rough" finds the Rays were famous for making, when Bloom was there. Refsnyder is quickly proving to be a similar type find.

So far, we've seen 20 players get 3 or more PAs and 14 with 80 or more. The bottom 5 of those 14 have done much better than the bottom 5 of 2021.

PAs Player OPS
203 Cordero .713
127 Arroyo .640
101 Duran .763
91 Plawecki .487
80 Refsnyder .957

2021:
271 Marwin .567
173 Plawecki .737
136 Cordero .497
127 Santana .597
112 Duran .578
(+82 Chavis .549/ 75 Arauz .643)

The biggest gains have come from the SP'er pick-ups as compared to 2021's:

IP Pitcher ERA
2021
137 Richards 4.87
114 Perez 4.74
73 Whitlock 1.96
2022
71 R Hill 4.20
70 Wacha 2.69
36 Davis 2.48 (much pen than starter)

Pen
2021
62 Ottavino 4.21
53 Sawamura 3.06
37 Andriese 6.03 (DFA'd)
2022
36 Davis 2.48
31 Danish 4.02
31 Diekman 3.48
29 Schreiber 0.62
28 Strahm 3.58
25 Robles 5.84



In the case of Story I'd say being the best defensive 2nd baseman in the AL also prevents Story from "being a total disaster."

[moonslav59]

Agreed. The more information you look at, including the eye test, the better the assessment you will be able to get, and the better the understanding of what is going on.

As I said, I understand that advanced stats are not for everyone and that's okay. When having discussions/debates on a message board, however, I not only think they are fair game, but I also think they are necessary.

Yes, and what I think some eye test posters might think is that stat geeks don't watch or enjoy watching the game like they do. Like numbers are swirling around our head during the game, that blind us to what we see on the field.

Another thing I feel they may get wrong is that they think we see a stat or metric and then watch a game trying to confirm it is true. On this point, I'd like to add how I often use stats and metrics. Many times, I observe a certain trend or aspect of a player and form an opinion, then I look to see if the stats back up my opinion and or compare how said player compares to others in the area I formed an opinion.

One example was when Ellsbury came up. I originally thought he was a plus defender, but when I looked at his numbers it showed otherwise. Instead of just believing the stats, I started watching him more closely. Now, some might think I was then letting the stats bias my observations, but I don't think I did. I had been arguing with other posters that he was a plus defender. I'd have to admit I was wrong, which I ended up doing after watching more closely over time. The further aspect of this example was that eventually, Ellsbury did become a plus defender over the year, and my observations and the stats/metrics showed he did.

I'm not sure why BA has so much more pull than SLG or OBP, for some. Sure, a single is worth more than a walk, but clearly a 2B, 3B, and HR are worth more than a single or walk, right? Then, the whole rbi thing. It's been beaten to death, so I'll let that one go, except to say that it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that some posters who use rbi way more than others, also want us to re-sign Bogey way more than others.

I guess we all have our contradictions- stat geeks and non stat geeks.

[moonslav59]

In the case of Story I'd say being the best defensive 2nd baseman in the AL also prevents Story from "being a total disaster."

True dat.

He's been astounding on defense.

I still wonder about where he plays, next year: SS or 2B.

[mvp 78]

True dat.

He's been astounding on defense.

I still wonder about where he plays, next year: SS or 2B.

I'd prefer keeping him at 2b, but it depends on what the plan would be for SS.

[moonslav59]

I'd prefer keeping him at 2b, but it depends on what the plan would be for SS.

For argument's sake, let's say the plan is Downs. Who plays SS?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Btw, if any one here actually believes the sincerity of the opening thread, well, I still have that bridge to sell. Jacksonian is a troll and always will be a troll; he just employs condescending posts to try and fool you.

[Bellhorn04]

Btw, if any one here believes the sincerity of the opening thread, well, I still have that bridge to sell. Jacksonian is a troll and always will be a troll; he just employs condescending posts to try and fool you.

He's the devil we know, though...

[mvp 78]

Btw, if any one here actually believes the sincerity of the opening thread, well, I still have that bridge to sell. Jacksonian is a troll and always will be a troll; he just employs condescending posts to try and fool you.

jacko isn't really an irony bro. That's not what he's built his posting career on.

[mvp 78]

My vote for first half manager of the year would go to Charlie Montoyo.

[redsoxrules]

Was is Cora's decision to put Whitlock as a starter? If so that really worked out well.

[moonslav59]

Was is Cora's decision to put Whitlock as a starter? If so that really worked out well.

Not sure if this is sarcasm, but I was fully on board with Whitlock starting (and Houck closing.)

While the Sox went 5-4 in Whitlock's 9 starts, about par with the team's winning %, he had some games where the pen messed up a good start, or the bats were silent. (All of our starters have faced these problems, too.)

The 4 losses...
4 IP 1H 0ER 0 BB 7K (We lost 3-2 @ TBR)
3 IP 4H 0ER 2BB 2K (Lost 1-0 @ TOR)
5 IP 2H 2ER 0BB 9K (Lost 10-5 v LAA)
6 IP 5H 2ER 1BB 4K (Lost 12-8 v BAL)

In all fairness, he did have one start where he let up 5ER in 4 IP (10 hits) and we won 6-5, but with some luck, we could easily have been 8-1 in his 9 starts.

[notin]

For argument's sake, let's say the plan is Downs. Who plays SS?

If the plan is Downs, then Bogaerts is likely not in the plan. Unless for some reason he decides to move to LF…

[notin]

Perennial candidate Terry Francona is certainly a good choice again this year. If he can win the division with one of the youngest rosters in the past 30 years, he probably vaults to the top of the list…

[Bellhorn04]

Was is Cora's decision to put Whitlock as a starter? If so that really worked out well.

What are you talking about?

[moonslav59]

If the plan is Downs, then Bogaerts is likely not in the plan. Unless for some reason he decides to move to LF…

Yes, the hypothetical was where does Story play, SS or 2B, if the plan is to start Downs, next season. (Not likely, but just trying to get a feel for how strongly people feel about leaving Story at 2B, next year, assuming Bogey does not return.

[moonslav59]

Perennial candidate Terry Francona is certainly a good choice again this year. If he can win the division with one of the youngest rosters in the past 30 years, he probably vaults to the top of the list…

Kevin Cash might be on the short list.

They just passed us, and I think they have their top 5 pen guys injured, plus others.

[redsoxrules]

Not sure if this is sarcasm, but I was fully on board with Whitlock starting (and Houck closing.)

While the Sox went 5-4 in Whitlock's 9 starts, about par with the team's winning %, he had some games where the pen messed up a good start, or the bats were silent. (All of our starters have faced these problems, too.)

The 4 losses...
4 IP 1H 0ER 0 BB 7K (We lost 3-2 @ TBR)
3 IP 4H 0ER 2BB 2K (Lost 1-0 @ TOR)
5 IP 2H 2ER 0BB 9K (Lost 10-5 v LAA)
6 IP 5H 2ER 1BB 4K (Lost 12-8 v BAL)

In all fairness, he did have one start where he let up 5ER in 4 IP (10 hits) and we won 6-5, but with some luck, we could easily have been 8-1 in his 9 starts.


He's on the DL. Many of you cited last year he was fragile which was why he wasn't used a lot. So now that's he's moved as a starter and gets injured it's a good move? I've said this many times, the workload of a starter is way heavier than a a reliever. He'd still be pitching right now more than likely if he was left in the pen.

[redsoxrules]

What are you talking about?

He's on the DL

[mvp 78]

He's on the DL. Many of you cited last year he was fragile which was why he wasn't used a lot. So now that's he's moved as a starter and gets injured it's a good move? I've said this many times, the workload of a starter is way heavier than a a reliever. He'd still be pitching right now more than likely if he was left in the pen.

Who said he's "fragile?" He was coming off an injury.

I'm not sure if him being put into the rotation caused this injury. Maybe not having a set plan for him from Spring Training on and splitting his time between relieving and starting had an impact? I thought I heard somewhere that the injury was in part due to how he was working out between starts?

I still believe his best role is as starter.

[moonslav59]

He's on the DL. Many of you cited last year he was fragile which was why he wasn't used a lot. So now that's he's moved as a starter and gets injured it's a good move? I've said this many times, the workload of a starter is way heavier than a a reliever. He'd still be pitching right now more than likely if he was left in the pen.

He was not fragile. Being on an innings limit is not the same as fragile.

The idea is to increase innings each year.

This is like saying Sale should never start, again.

[Maxbialystock]

Back to Cora as manager of the year.

After watching and thinking about this series with the Rays, I'm beginning to have doubts about Cora. Tonight Schreiber should have started the 7th. Plus why oh why was Houck never used despite the fact that the middle relievers were killing the Sox (except in last night's game).

More than that, the Rays simply look more professional than the Sox--on the mound, running the bases, playing defense, and hitting.

[illinoisredsox]

Back to Cora as manager of the year.

After watching and thinking about this series with the Rays, I'm beginning to have doubts about Cora. Tonight Schreiber should have started the 7th. Plus why oh why was Houck never used despite the fact that the middle relievers were killing the Sox (except in last night's game).

More than that, the Rays simply look more professional than the Sox--on the mound, running the bases, playing defense, and hitting.

Crawford was cruising; I had no issue with him starting the 7th. Schreiber should have been warming, and Crawford should have been lifted after the first hit and certainly no later than the second.

[Bellhorn04]

Crawford was cruising; I had no issue with him starting the 7th. Schreiber should have been warming, and Crawford should have been lifted after the first hit and certainly no later than the second.

FWIW modern managers don't seem to like having guys start to warm up "too early". So Cora didn't want Schreiber to be warming up through the 7th and then pitching the 8th.

I'll have to take an agnostic stance on that myself.

[mvp 78]

Back to Cora as manager of the year.

After watching and thinking about this series with the Rays, I'm beginning to have doubts about Cora. Tonight Schreiber should have started the 7th. Plus why oh why was Houck never used despite the fact that the middle relievers were killing the Sox (except in last night's game).

More than that, the Rays simply look more professional than the Sox--on the mound, running the bases, playing defense, and hitting.
Why? Crawford didn't have a high pitch count? When all was said and done, he only threw 91 pitches.

If Houck is the closer, why would you use him in the 7th inning? Didn't Schreiber end up taking the loss anyway?

[oldtimer]

Crawford was cruising; I had no issue with him starting the 7th. Schreiber should have been warming, and Crawford should have been lifted after the first hit and certainly no later than the second.

Yes, I agree and see that as a major mistake by Cora. While the players were largely to blame for the poor showing in the first 3 Rays games, I see Cora as the culprit in last night's game.