Swihart DFA

[Station 13]

Just announced.

[a700hitter]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/04/red-sox-to-designate-blake-swihart.html

It is a tough break for the kid, especially on the heels of his brother’s death. At times, baseball can be a brutal business.

[moonslav59]

I'm a big Leon supporter, but I am surprised they made this move this quickly.

[jad]

I don't understand this. Was the whole deal an 'experiment'? If he hits .300 he stays? If it's .230 he's gone?

[a700hitter]

I'm a big Leon supporter, but I am surprised they made this move this quickly.
I think our starters missed throwing to Leon.

[a700hitter]

I don't understand this. Was the whole deal an 'experiment'? If he hits .300 he stays? If it's .230 he's gone?
This was about his catching and handling of the pitching staff.

[TylerD]

I think our starters missed throwing to Leon.

Agreed.... When the team is struggling like this especially the starting rotation, I guess moves like this shouldn't surprise us. I still feel bad for the guy.

[jad]

This was about his catching and handling of the pitching staff.

I'm sure you're right. I confess, the intricacies and subtleties of the argument over whether a catcher is responsible for pitchers' success were too abstruse for me to follow, so I am having difficulty determining whether (and whose) remarks on this topic are ironic.

[dgalehouse]

" Here I come to save the day . That means that Sandy Mouse is on the way ....."

[Spudboy]

I bet he ends up with the Yankees.

I would prefer that he lands with a team like San Diego.

[jung]

Agreed.... When the team is struggling like this especially the starting rotation, I guess moves like this shouldn't surprise us. I still feel bad for the guy.

Yup...Swi's bat was seen as his salvation and he just was not performing like it. We knew this was a fish or cut bait effort for the Sox with Swi. Lesson to ballplayers....gotta' know what your opportunity represents and gotta' take advantage of it especially when you getting paid nothing. Thought they would go longer with Swi but those last few AB's were pretty disappointing and they were not going to give Swi three weeks to heat up. That was not happening under the current conditions.

I still will never like the way Swi was treated here in that they stuck him in LF as if he could just play there. He ends up crushing his ankle.....predictable given how hard it is to learn Fenway Outfield positions.

Then again, carrying three catchers worked for them last year. Could they have given Pedey more time playing minor league ball and thus given Swi more time? We will never know now.

I wonder if they will throw Sandy right in to catch Sale tonight. Somehow this timing makes me think that is the plan.

[Station 13]

While at it DFA Nunez too. Useless shit.

[harmony]

What are the odds that Blake Swihart will go unclaimed and then optioned to Pawtucket?

[jung]

What are the odds that Blake Swihart will go unclaimed and then optioned to Pawtucket?

Would not be a total surprise. But somebody is probably going to gamble that Swi is just a riddle that the Sox have not been able to solve and will take a shot on him on that score alone.

[iortiz]

I still believe BS is a better option than Vazquez and Leon. They are not sucking because the catching. They suck because they simply suck. In Sale’s case the velo simply isn’t there. BS was simply the scapegoat.

[TylerD]

Yup...Swi's bat was seen as his salvation and he just was not performing like it. We knew this was a fish or cut bait effort for the Sox with Swi. Lesson to ballplayers....gotta' know what your opportunity represents and gotta' take advantage of it especially when you getting paid nothing. Thought they would go longer with Swi but those last few AB's were pretty disappointing and they were not going to give Swi three weeks to heat up. That was not happening under the current conditions.

I still will never like the way Swi was treated here in that they stuck him in LF as if he could just play there. He ends up crushing his ankle.....predictable given how hard it is to learn Fenway Outfield positions.

Then again, carrying three catchers worked for them last year. Could they have given Pedey more time playing minor league ball and thus given Swi more time? We will never know now.

I wonder if they will throw Sandy right in to catch Sale tonight. Somehow this timing makes me think that is the plan.

Agreed completely. If we were battling for top spot or just a couple games behind I doubt this move happens..... But unfortunately when you win the World Series and have basically the same team the next season and have the 5th worst record in the league through the first 3 weeks (granted it's early) it still warrants some changes. I like Swi I really do but I am not overly surprised as some to see this.

[vegasbob]

If Porcello and Sale respond well to the return of Leon, then I say fuck those two. If you can't throw effective pitches, don't tell me the catcher is your problem. Swihart , in fact, did not look especially good behind the plate (blocking pitches in place) and his hitting approach looked bad the last few AB's. So , no real objection to the DFA move, but it better not be in response to possible whining from some half assed throwers who are impersonating a couple of the Sox staff.

[Jasonbay44]

Why even have him on team if his leash was that small? I don’t understand

[Bellhorn04]

Why even have him on team if his leash was that small? I don’t understand

17 games may not seem like much.

But it was enough to fall 6.5 games behind the Rays.

[Bellhorn04]

Thus concludes Leongate.

[SCM33]

What are the odds that Blake Swihart will go unclaimed and then optioned to Pawtucket?

0%

Just wait until Sale is throwing 89MPH tonight and the NYY light his ass up with the savior Leon catching. I hope I’m wrong, but fear I’m not.

What a stupid knee jerk reactionary move.

DFA Nunez, not Swihart. They really fucked with that kids career.

[Jack Flap]

So I guess Swihart is the scapegoat for the starters not being prepared for the start of the season...okay, then.

[oldtimer]

0%

Just wait until Sale is throwing 89MPH tonight and the NYY light his ass up with the savior Leon catching. I hope I’m wrong, but fear I’m not.

What a stupid knee jerk reactionary move.

DFA Nunez, not Swihart. They really fucked with that kids career.

As far as making judgments on hitting, Betts is off to even a worse start than Swi, so it seems premature to DFA as yet. Cora probably been facing a lot of pressure to bring Leon up for the same reason fans on this site have advocated for Leon. It remains to be seen what happens, but the die is cast now and Swi probably is gone for good. Leon is hitting half the avg that Swi had at Pawtucket so some great transition in our pitching staff will be needed to justify this move.

[Jasonbay44]

17 games may not seem like much.

But it was enough to fall 6.5 games behind the Rays.


He only had 26 ABs

[SCM33]

As far as making judgments on hitting, Betts is off to even a worse start than Swi, so it seems premature to DFA as yet. Cora probably been facing a lot of pressure to bring Leon up for the same reason fans on this site have advocated for Leon. It remains to be seen what happens, but the die is cast now and Swi probably is gone for good. Leon is hitting half the avg that Swi had at Pawtucket so some great transition in our pitching staff will be needed to justify this move.

I never liked Leon, and on this board, mostly joked about him tongue in cheek. I really thought there was no way this kind of thing would happen.

I officially can’t stand Leon now.

EDIT, love that Jared Carrabis is bow referring to Leon as the only “active hall of famer” hahahahaha

[dgalehouse]

I think Walden was sent to Pawtucket. Does that mean Mejia is coming up ?

[illinoisredsox]

As far as making judgments on hitting, Betts is off to even a worse start than Swi, so it seems premature to DFA as yet. Cora probably been facing a lot of pressure to bring Leon up for the same reason fans on this site have advocated for Leon. It remains to be seen what happens, but the die is cast now and Swi probably is gone for good. Leon is hitting half the avg that Swi had at Pawtucket so some great transition in our pitching staff will be needed to justify this move.

The difference is, Betts has a track record of hitting well. Swihart hasn't really hit anywhere, majors or minors, since the ankle injury, and unlike, say, JBJ, there is no gold glove defense to offset offensive woes.

[Jack Flap]

I think Walden was sent to Pawtucket. Does that mean Mejia is coming up ?

Apparently it's Erasmo Ramirez:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/04/red-sox-select-contract-of-erasmo-ramirez.html

[SCM33]

Why even have him on team if his leash was that small? I don’t understand

This move is so shortsighted. If we don’t see immediate results, this team could tank. This reeeeeks of desperation.

[Slasher9]

I'm a big Leon supporter, but I am surprised they made this move this quickly.

im surprised it took so long.

#leongate

[notin]

This move is so shortsighted. If we don’t see immediate results, this team could tank. This reeeeeks of desperation.


Eh.

The Sox didn’t DFA a young Johnny Bench. Whether his career got sidetracked or not, the end result is Swihart is a borderline MLB player. And he might never be anything more...

[notin]

I think Walden was sent to Pawtucket. Does that mean Mejia is coming up ?


I’d have been surprised if it was Mejia. The Sox issues aren’t in the closer role yet...

[SCM33]

Eh.

The Sox didn’t DFA a young Johnny Bench. Whether his career got sidetracked or not, the end result is Swihart is a borderline MLB player. And he might never be anything more...

lol, funny to hear that, since Leon is a borderline MLB player who people on this board regard as Johnny Bench. Ironic!

I hope he goes to another team, preferably in our division and he rakes. He deserved better.

[notin]

lol, funny to hear that, since Leon is a borderline MLB player who people on this board regard as Johnny Bench. Ironic!

I hope he goes to another team, preferably in our division and he rakes. He deserved better.


No, Leon is more like a Jose Molina who let himself go...

[a700hitter]

Swihart is 27 years old and completely unaccomplished at the MLB level. He is not a good catcher. Athleticism doesn't always translate into being a good baseball player.

[Slasher9]

If Porcello and Sale respond well to the return of Leon, then I say fuck those two. If you can't throw effective pitches, don't tell me the catcher is your problem.

the last time Chris Sale shook off a catcher? that's right...college. a catcher 100% effects (affects?) chris sale's performance.

[Slasher9]

lol, funny to hear that, since Leon is a borderline MLB player who people on this board regard as Johnny Bench. Ironic!

I hope he goes to another team, preferably in our division and he rakes. He deserved better.

i dont think anyone is advocating anything positive or negative about swiharts offense. he may or may not have the tools to be a great major league hitter. that is the least important thing when talking about a major league catcher. but some people only care about offense stats....the game actually has 2 sides. and for some positions....offense is not the most important side....

[notin]

I still believe BS is a better option than Vazquez and Leon. They are not sucking because the catching. They suck because they simply suck. In Sale’s case the velo simply isn’t there. BS was simply the scapegoat.


I don’t think anyone is blaming Swihart for Sale’s problems. Isn’t it possible the Sox just decided Swihart wasn’t or wasn’t going to work out? Remember these are people who once DFAd a #3 hitter....

[Slasher9]

Swihart is 27 years old and completely unaccomplished at the MLB level. He is not a good catcher. Athleticism doesn't always translate into being a good baseball player.

he seems like a really good guy. i wish him the best wherever he lands. i would be very happy if he cleared waivers and remained in our organization. i agree with someones earlier post - he did get a raw deal from Boston FO with the left field experiment that tore up his ankle.

[notin]

Swihart is 27 years old and completely unaccomplished at the MLB level. He is not a good catcher. Athleticism doesn't always translate into being a good baseball player.


You forgot to drop the mic...

[SCM33]

the last time Chris Sale shook off a catcher? that's right...college. a catcher 100% effects (affects?) chris sale's performance.

Then it’s a shame we pay him all that money. Millions of millions of dollars and can’t think for himself and requires a binkie . How cute.

[fxkatt]

That's right Swihart is 27, so why do so many here keep calling him "the kid." I assume it's to say the Sox didn't give him enough time. In any case, Leon had a 3.2 era last year and the team probably has a 7-8 era right now... no doubt, this played a big role in the early decision.

[SCM33]

he seems like a really good guy. i wish him the best wherever he lands. i would be very happy if he cleared waivers and remained in our organization. i agree with someones earlier post - he did get a raw deal from Boston FO with the left field experiment that tore up his ankle.

I said that. We really screwed him. He never had a chance to develop as a catcher. They ruined him.

[Bellhorn04]

He only had 26 ABs

It's all about the atrocious starting pitching numbers.

And it is a panic move. But not one I disagree with.

[notin]

That's right Swihart is 27, so why do so many here keep calling him "the kid." I assume it's to say the Sox didn't give him enough time. In any case, Leon had a 3.2 era last year and the team probably has a 7-8 era right now... no doubt, this played a big role in the early decision.


He was a first round pick, but that was 8 years ago. Over a quarter of the ones drafted ahead of him are out of baseball or haven’t made the majors yet. It happens...

[SCM33]

All I know is, I hope Sale pitches well tonight. I hope his fastball reaches the 90s. He got his binkie back. Put up or shut up. No more fastballs down the middle. No excuses, Johnny Bench is back.

[fxkatt]

All I know is, I hope Sale pitches well tonight. I hope his fastball reaches the 90s. He got his binkie back. Put up or shut up. No more fastballs down the middle. No excuses, Johnny Bench is back.

This is esp. true with tonite's Yankee team... 11-12 guys out with injuries. Bird is the latest to go down.

But I like the "Bench" move, no matter the game tonite. (Sale is the real focus in this game more than Leon who will have just gotten off a plane)

[jung]

The link is not Leon and the entire rotation. The link is Sale. They are paying Sale approximately $10k per pitch. Sale should not need his Binkie and he is making lousy pitches. But at $10k per pitch he is going to get his Binkie regardless of anything else just because $10k per pitch is $10k per pitch.

The time is going to come in Sale's career that even his Binkie is not going to make that much of a difference. You can count on one hand the number of pitchers that have gone through a complete career so confident in their entire menu of pitches that they did not have to shake off catchers. In fact, you can count them on one hand with fingers left over. The "I can throw anything, just put down the sign" idea is naive....cute but naive. This is going to be part of Sale's maturation as a pitcher whether we like it or not and whether he likes it or not.

[Jasonbay44]

lol, funny to hear that, since Leon is a borderline MLB player who people on this board regard as Johnny Bench. Ironic!

I hope he goes to another team, preferably in our division and he rakes. He deserved better.
Find one post that said anywhere León would increase Sales velocity, or was was even a good catcher. The Red Sox have one of worst catching situations in league. The advocating for León was due to the fact that regardless of what you think about him, is the best defender. Vazquez sucks everywhere, and the Swihart situation remains a mystery.

[TylerD]

I still believe BS is a better option than Vazquez and Leon. They are not sucking because the catching. They suck because they simply suck. In Sale’s case the velo simply isn’t there. BS was simply the scapegoat.

What scares me most is Sale's control is wildly inconsistent and I agree this has nothing to do with the catcher. Sale's velocity seemed to improve in his 3rd start as he had a 95 m fastball..... Yet he still got lit up. Guess we will see what happens tonight.

[fxkatt]

Lucky Tampa Bay. They don't have to concern themselves with long expensive contracts, because they don't give out any. We have one such contract in its first year, and it's already worrisome.

[SCM33]

Find one post that said anywhere León would increase Sales velocity, or was was even a good catcher. The Red Sox have one of worst catching situations in league. The advocating for León was due to the fact that regardless of what you think about him, is the best defender. Vazquez sucks everywhere, and the Swihart situation remains a mystery.

Ive been battling this since spring training. Moonslav specifically has produced numbers and argued that is among the best catchers in the league!!!!!! Which is why I laughed my ass off when no other team in baseball wanted him when he was designated for assignment.

Sale better pitch well. Porcello better pitch well, they better figure their shit out. We find out tonight.

[MADSTORK]

Call it like it is, Bust!

[jung]

Find one post that said anywhere León would increase Sales velocity, or was was even a good catcher. The Red Sox have one of worst catching situations in league. The advocating for León was due to the fact that regardless of what you think about him, is the best defender. Vazquez sucks everywhere, and the Swihart situation remains a mystery.

He won't. But that is not the issue and Leon is simply not that much better than Vaz defensively if at all. You don't think Vaz can hit? Wait till you get a load of 2019 Leon. He is batting .120 in AAA with a .274 OPS.

[Hitch]

Feel bad for Swilhart and I would have bene tested to make Vaz the fall guy, but happy to see Leon back in the bigs. The pitching staff love him and they are struggling. Bring back what worked so well last year.

[fxkatt]

I think the Sox managerial staff came to the conclusion that Swihart wasn't going to be a .285+ hitter, so why entertain him any longer as a catcher. There was no other spot for hum, so bring back our 3.2 era catcher and all the stability and familiarity that goes with him. And take it from there--with the starting pitchers.

[Maxbialystock]

Absolutely fascinating thread because we are reacting to a recent DD move having to do with pitching and catching. All pertinent topics.

I am not a big Swihart fan, but I also don’t think he is to blame for the rotation’s horrible start. The Sox have pitched 2 shutouts this season, Swihart caught one of them.

Nevertheless, we know the rotation is the problem and that Leon is more likely to bring them back than Swihart.

[moonslav59]

The link is not Leon and the entire rotation. The link is Sale. They are paying Sale approximately $10k per pitch. Sale should not need his Binkie and he is making lousy pitches. But at $10k per pitch he is going to get his Binkie regardless of anything else just because $10k per pitch is $10k per pitch.

The time is going to come in Sale's career that even his Binkie is not going to make that much of a difference. You can count on one hand the number of pitchers that have gone through a complete career so confident in their entire menu of pitches that they did not have to shake off catchers. In fact, you can count them on one hand with fingers left over. The "I can throw anything, just put down the sign" idea is naive....cute but naive. This is going to be part of Sale's maturation as a pitcher whether we like it or not and whether he likes it or not.

Price does much better with Leon, too, but he has done well without him, so far this year.

[moonslav59]

I was advocating keeping Leon all winter. I thought we should have traded Swihart.

That being said, if we demoted Leon to give Swihart a chance, I don't think we gave him a long enough time to prove himself.

My guess is, they saw not improvement on "staff-handling, : and his poor hitting was just too much for them to continue the experiment.

I hope Swihart does not get claimed, and he accepts a minor league assignment with us, but I won't be crushed, if he's claimed.

[Jack Flap]

Swihart has had all of six starts behind the plate -- hardly enough time for the team to learn anything about him that they didn't know or shouldn't have known in spring training. I'd have understood if he was DFA'd three weeks ago, but to seemingly commit to giving him a chance (risking the loss of the great Sandy via a waiver claim in the process), only to cut him loose so quickly, just reeks of panic and overreaction.

I have no doubt that Leon will be good for the pitching staff (most of whom are due for some serious regression to the mean anyway), but at the same time, if we are to believe that this seasoned and extremely talented major league rotation completely lost its ability to pitch effectively due to his absence (the thesis of "Leongate," as I understand it), then that is a disturbing thought in and of itself, and one that doesn't reflect well on them or on the coaching staff...

[SCM33]

He won't. But that is not the issue and Leon is simply not that much better than Vaz defensively if at all. You don't think Vaz can hit? Wait till you get a load of 2019 Leon. He is batting .120 in AAA with a .274 OPS.

jung, I’ve been arguing it all year. I’ve been arguing it with everyone since spring training. It’s not 1 post about velocity, it’s multi faceted. Every angle you can argue, I’ve argued. Why should I find the post? I’m the one having the argument almost daily.

[Kimmi]

I'm a big Leon supporter, but I am surprised they made this move this quickly.

They should never have messed with Leon/Vaz to begin with.

That said, this is a panic move all the way. Mirabelli 2.0 .

Swihart was never really given a fair chance. The Sox have mishandled Swihart big time. I hate to see him go, but I hope that he gets the chance to play regularly for another team.

[SCM33]

Price does much better with Leon, too, but he has done well without him, so far this year.

Correct.

Sale better pitch well tonight, or you bet your ass I’m going to be riding him. He better pitch well, no excuse.

[Kimmi]

What are the odds that Blake Swihart will go unclaimed and then optioned to Pawtucket?

I will be very surprised if he is not claimed.

[jung]

Price does much better with Leon, too, but he has done well without him, so far this year.

Price was the most prepared of an unprepared rotation coming out of ST and it shows. He was the best of the pack from start till now though that is not saying much.

Sale appears to be making some progress though slow. Porcello cannot repeat his motion, release point or follow through especially on secondary pitches and from the stretch. Nat can't find the plate and has no idea where the ball is going. ERod was talked into a good start and had the whole first inning directed for him by the coaching staff last time out. So they are basically still a mess but making slow progress. None of the LH starters can throw a consistent Changeup to save his skin...THAT is a big problem getting RH hitters out these days.

Spring Training has a purpose and if you allow your rotation to effectively skip it then they are going to be doing ST work during games that count. It ain't rocket science folks. Its just baseball. It might work out in the end if Cora's grand strategy plays out. If not....NOT. It only even has a chance to work if they make it to and through the AL post season. Regular season games all count. So losing them in April is just as bad as losing them in September.

[Kimmi]

I still believe BS is a better option than Vazquez and Leon. They are not sucking because the catching. They suck because they simply suck. In Sale’s case the velo simply isn’t there. BS was simply the scapegoat.

It is not Blake's fault that our starting pitching has been so bad.

However, if it helps the pitchers' confidence and comfort level, I'm all for bringing Leon back. I just don't like the way the Sox have handled Swihart over his career.

It appears that Cora has spoken.

[notin]

They should never have messed with Leon/Vaz to begin with.

That said, this is a panic move all the way. Mirabelli 2.0 .

Swihart was never really given a fair chance. The Sox have mishandled Swihart big time. I hate to see him go, but I hope that he gets the chance to play regularly for another team.

It’s not like they could DFA Swihart right after his brother/close friend passed away...

[Kimmi]

If Porcello and Sale respond well to the return of Leon, then I say fuck those two. If you can't throw effective pitches, don't tell me the catcher is your problem. Swihart , in fact, did not look especially good behind the plate (blocking pitches in place) and his hitting approach looked bad the last few AB's. So , no real objection to the DFA move, but it better not be in response to possible whining from some half assed throwers who are impersonating a couple of the Sox staff.

I don't think any of the pitchers have been whining. I really don't.

I just think that the team felt like something needed to be done, and Swihart ended up being the scapegoat.

[moonslav59]

It is not Blake's fault that our starting pitching has been so bad.

However, if it helps the pitchers' confidence and comfort level, I'm all for bringing Leon back. I just don't like the way the Sox have handled Swihart over his career.

It appears that Cora has spoken.

If the staff suddenly starts pitching well, one will wonder, but to me, the sample sizes were way to small for anyone (including myself) to say, "I told you so."

[moonslav59]

I don't think any of the pitchers have been whining. I really don't.

I just think that the team felt like something needed to be done, and Swihart ended up being the scapegoat.

Sometimes, a shake-up is all it takes to jump start a team.

[Kimmi]

This move is so shortsighted. If we don’t see immediate results, this team could tank. This reeeeeks of desperation.

I am a Leon fan, and 100% believe in his intangibles with handling a pitching staff.

That said, I agree that this is a panic move.

[Jack Flap]

Things are obviously going to improve (unless anyone really believes this is a true-talent 7.00+ ERA rotation)... how much of that improvement will be directly attributable to Leon will be up for debate.

[Kimmi]

I don’t think anyone is blaming Swihart for Sale’s problems. Isn’t it possible the Sox just decided Swihart wasn’t or wasn’t going to work out? Remember these are people who once DFAd a #3 hitter....

And the Sox learned this after 17 games in 2019 when they didn't know this after all of his previous seasons with the Sox?

The Sox screwed up in choosing Swihart over Leon to begin with. Now they are being very reactionary in DFAing him.

[moonslav59]

I am a Leon fan, and 100% believe in his intangibles with handling a pitching staff.

That said, I agree that this is a panic move.

I feel the exact same way.

The could have called up Leon and IL'd Nunez.

[SCM33]

Things are obviously going to improve (unless anyone really believes this is a true-talent 7.00+ ERA rotation)... how much of that improvement will be directly attributable to Leon will be up for debate.
Correct, it’s a win win for the Leon people.

it literally can’t get worse, so just by him showing up.....all his supporters are going to attribute it to him. They could allow 6 runs rather than 9 and still say “told you so” it’s a joke.

Chris Sale and Rick Porcello better look like cy young pitchers in their next starts. AErod and Price both threw well to the other guys in recent starts.

[Kimmi]

Correct.

Sale better pitch well tonight, or you bet your ass I’m going to be riding him. He better pitch well, no excuse.

It's almost like you're hoping Sale gets rocked, just so you can say "I told you so." :rolleyes:

[Kimmi]

It’s not like they could DFA Swihart right after his brother/close friend passed away...

Fair point.

I had forgotten that he just lost his brother, and I'm sure that had something to do with the decision.

[Kimmi]

Things are obviously going to improve (unless anyone really believes this is a true-talent 7.00+ ERA rotation)... how much of that improvement will be directly attributable to Leon will be up for debate.

This is true. Leon is not going to be the savior to our season. The Sox were going to improve either way. But I do think he will help.

[SCM33]

It's almost like you're hoping Sale gets rocked, just so you can say "I told you so." :rolleyes:

Its not that. Its sad that these cy young caliber pitchers become inept when they take their binkie away, and I don’t think that Leon makes that much of a difference.

[Kimmi]

Its not that. Its sad that these cy young caliber pitchers become inept when they take their binkie away.

As I said in other posts, Swihart is not the reason that Sale and the rest of the rotation have pitched poorly. However, I do think that Leon makes a difference.

Do you not think that that a pitcher having confidence in and comfort with a catcher affects the way he pitches?

[notin]

Its not that. Its sad that these cy young caliber pitchers become inept when they take their binkie away, and I don’t think that Leon makes that much of a difference.


But any little difference might help right now...

[jung]

They will be better because work will round them into form. We will not know if this is going to work out unless this team makes it to the ALCS at least. If not....so much for Cora's grand strategy.

i think what Cora actually missed was how poorly his everyday players would play and how much he would have to rely on his rotation to win games early. He missed how poorly they would handle carrying all this hardware from 2018 around. JD us the only guy that has handed it well. Why is that not a shock? X is coming out of his funk a bit. The rest...not so much. I think that was really what Cora missed. I am of course engaging in major Monday morning quarterbacking here.

[vegasbob]

Eh.

The Sox didn’t DFA a young Johnny Bench. Whether his career got sidetracked or not, the end result is Swihart is a borderline MLB player. And he might never be anything more...

Hard to argue that. I was tempted to speculate that by mid summer the Sox would make a major move at catcher by-passing Swihart and Leon, but deferred the speculation because it seemed "too early". Now , I'll say look for a different veteran catcher to show up within 60 days.

[SCM33]

As I said in other posts, Swihart is not the reason that Sale and the rest of the rotation have pitched poorly. However, I do think that Leon makes a difference.

Do you not think that that a pitcher having confidence in and comfort with a catcher affects the way he pitches?

i think it depends. I think if you are a cy young caliber pitcher making 20+ million a year, , it shouldn’t matter.

[vegasbob]

It's all about the atrocious starting pitching numbers.

And it is a panic move. But not one I disagree with.

You are right. The time to re-energize this bunch is now , not the end of May. Too bad Swihart had to be the odd man out, but that's high level professional athletics . If it does nothing more than calm the weak minds on the mound, it will be a step in the right direction for a team that quickly lost its way. There may need to be a similar move in the bullpen beyond Walden's demo. Thornburg or Brewer need to check the roster daily going forward.

[Slasher9]

They should never have messed with Leon/Vaz to begin with.

That said, this is a panic move all the way. Mirabelli 2.0 .

Swihart was never really given a fair chance. The Sox have mishandled Swihart big time. I hate to see him go, but I hope that he gets the chance to play regularly for another team.

preach sister Kimmi.
devers 2.0 if you will...

[Slasher9]

I am a Leon fan, and 100% believe in his intangibles with handling a pitching staff.

That said, I agree that this is a panic move.

agree and agree.

#leongate

[Slasher9]

Correct, it’s a win win for the Leon people.

it literally can’t get worse, so just by him showing up.....all his supporters are going to attribute it to him. They could allow 6 runs rather than 9 and still say “told you so” it’s a joke.

Chris Sale and Rick Porcello better look like cy young pitchers in their next starts. AErod and Price both threw well to the other guys in recent starts.

sorry man. you sound like a yankees fan. or 2017 slasher9 in regards to david price...

[vegasbob]

They will be better because work will round them into form. We will not know if this is going to work out unless this team makes it to the ALCS at least. If not....so much for Cora's grand strategy.

i think what Cora actually missed was how poorly his everyday players would play and how much he would have to rely on his rotation to win games early. He missed how poorly they would handle carrying all this hardware from 2018 around. JD us the only guy that has handed it well. Why is that not a shock? X is coming out of his funk a bit. The rest...not so much. I think that was really what Cora missed. I am of course engaging in major Monday morning quarterbacking here.

Vazquez, Bradley, Nunez, Pearce, Pedroia and Holt all hitting below .200 and especially Mookie at .222/.737 OPS are more indicators of guys not helping the cause.

[Maxbialystock]

Swihart has had all of six starts behind the plate -- hardly enough time for the team to learn anything about him that they didn't know or shouldn't have known in spring training. I'd have understood if he was DFA'd three weeks ago, but to seemingly commit to giving him a chance (risking the loss of the great Sandy via a waiver claim in the process), only to cut him loose so quickly, just reeks of panic and overreaction.

I have no doubt that Leon will be good for the pitching staff (most of whom are due for some serious regression to the mean anyway), but at the same time, if we are to believe that this seasoned and extremely talented major league rotation completely lost its ability to pitch effectively due to his absence (the thesis of "Leongate," as I understand it), then that is a disturbing thought in and of itself, and one that doesn't reflect well on them or on the coaching staff...

That's not completely true. Swihart started about 84 games in 2015 because of injuries, and I think that experience is why he caught so few games after 2015. Last season he was on the active roster the entire season and didn't get to catch a game until Leon or Vazquez (I forget which one) went on the DL.

I honestly wouldn't know a good defensive catcher if he bit me in the ankle, but the indicators from a managerial/coaching point of view suggest they doubted his ability as a catcher after 2015 and still feel that way. FWIW, last year his catching DWAR was -0.4, which is the same DWAR he had as a catcher in 2015 (when the Sox team ERA was 4.31, 25th in MLB).

[SCM33]

Nice to see this transaction worked.

[SCM33]

......and Sales night is done.

4 runs, 5 IP.....no difference.

[SCM33]

Leongate

[a700hitter]

Horrible game. Cora has botched the beginning of the season. He needs to turn this around.

[redsoxrules]

This whole thing makes me scratch my head. Leon stinks. This is purely a panic move in hopes to shake things up. You're a God damn ace, it doesn't matter if its leon, vaz or me out there you should be pitching gems.

[SCM33]

This whole thing makes me scratch my head. Leon stinks. This is purely a panic move in hopes to shake things up. You're a God damn ace, it doesn't matter if its leon, vaz or me out there you should be pitching gems.

THANK you RSR. Thats what Ive been saying since spring training.

[redsoxrules]

And the worse part about this we now have batter in our lineup that's WORSE than a Nl pitcher. They might as well just run 8 out there and have an automatic out in the nine hole.

[SCM33]

And the worse part about this we now have batter in our lineup that's WORSE than a Nl pitcher. They might as well just run 8 out there and have an automatic out in the nine hole.

You agree with me so much, I almost feel like I am being baited. If TalkSox thinks Leon is going to fix this, they are stupid baseball people.

[Sox75]

Yeh yeh yeh. He's an ACE....
BUT, it is beyond obvious that Sale is completely
off his game. There absolutely MUST BE something physical? It's the ONLY THING that makes sense with the dramatic drop in velocity.

Yes... The Cora experiment of a SUPER-LIGHT ST is a complete bust, but beyond that, Sale is a MAJOR concern.
He looked totally WASTED at the end of the season. I think we may have a real problem on our hands?

[jacksonianmarch]

Sale showed velocity today. He still didn't show vintage consistent 97 mph gas, but he averaged in the 94-95 range tonight. The problem was, it was a meatball every time or he missed high. Makes me wonder if he is overthrowing to get the velocity yet loses his command

[notin]

Yeh yeh yeh. He's an ACE....
BUT, it is beyond obvious that Sale is completely
off his game. There absolutely MUST BE something physical? It's the ONLY THING that makes sense with the dramatic drop in velocity.

Yes... The Cora experiment of a SUPER-LIGHT ST is a complete bust, but beyond that, Sale is a MAJOR concern.
He looked totally WASTED at the end of the season. I think we may have a real problem on our hands?


That makes Dombrowski a moron for offering him the contract...

[jacksonianmarch]

I listened to the Dombrowski interview and he said that there were many different opinions on the Swihart situation, but it "finally became my decision" and he cut Swihart. That is a comment that reeks of discord in the front office

[oldtimer]

Yeh yeh yeh. He's an ACE....
BUT, it is beyond obvious that Sale is completely
off his game. There absolutely MUST BE something physical? It's the ONLY THING that makes sense with the dramatic drop in velocity.

Yes... The Cora experiment of a SUPER-LIGHT ST is a complete bust, but beyond that, Sale is a MAJOR concern.
He looked totally WASTED at the end of the season. I think we may have a real problem on our hands?

Sale was throwing harder tonight but his location was an issue but he also got no run support. This team has struggled against fair pitching and tonight faced more top notched stuff. More is wrong than just the pitching. Like Betts not running at the crack of the bat. Thats a lack of focus. The team is having difficullty hitting and the error problem still exists. This is the same team that won 108 games last year so I have to believe they will play better than 500 ball going forward, but the hole is getting deeper and the turnaround needs to happen soon. Putting a poor hitter into the lineup isn't going to help run production. Lets hope he can contribute something on defense, but it didn't show tonight.

[SCM33]

I listened to the Dombrowski interview and he said that there were many different opinions on the Swihart situation, but it "finally became my decision" and he cut Swihart. That is a comment that reeks of discord in the front office

I just hope that 7/8 of a season of Leon is worth losing Swihart FOREVER.

[moonslav59]

I listened to the Dombrowski interview and he said that there were many different opinions on the Swihart situation, but it "finally became my decision" and he cut Swihart. That is a comment that reeks of discord in the front office

If it's anything like the discord on this site on the catcher position, it's not surprising.

[moonslav59]

Sale showed velocity today. He still didn't show vintage consistent 97 mph gas, but he averaged in the 94-95 range tonight. The problem was, it was a meatball every time or he missed high. Makes me wonder if he is overthrowing to get the velocity yet loses his command

IMO, he'll get it all together at some point, hopefully very soon.

[devildavid]

Yeh yeh yeh. He's an ACE....
BUT, it is beyond obvious that Sale is completely
off his game. There absolutely MUST BE something physical? It's the ONLY THING that makes sense with the dramatic drop in velocity.

Yes... The Cora experiment of a SUPER-LIGHT ST is a complete bust, but beyond that, Sale is a MAJOR concern.
He looked totally WASTED at the end of the season. I think we may have a real problem on our hands?

I totally agree with this. I was worried about Sale all off season. Something is not right with him.

[Sox75]

Can we just be honest for 1 min....

Yes. The SPing seems to like Sandy. Sandy is a good, but not great defensive catcher. Vaz is a good defensive catcher with very decent skills, but obviously no head for catching a game, & giving the SR CONFIDENCE that HE IS THE GUY to guide them seamlessly through a game.

Swi? A very decent athlete.... not to bright. With how hum baseball skills & baseball smarts. He was NEVER going to LEAD ANY TEAM to anything.

[Sox75]

Still, the BOTTOM LINE here is, that the SR is woefully unprepared for this season.

This is a jucking JOKE!

Cora simply needs to fall on his sword. Take all the heat. Promise to get the SR ready to pitch.... & put the pressure of a clean slate on the SR.

Sale? Simply doesn't look remotely healthy.

[devildavid]

Can we just be honest for 1 min....

Yes. The SPing seems to like Sandy. Sandy is a good, but not great defensive catcher. Vaz is a good defensive catcher with very decent skills, but obviously no head for catching a game, & giving the SR CONFIDENCE that HE IS THE GUY to guide them seamlessly through a game.

Swi? A very decent athlete.... not to bright. With how hum baseball skills & baseball smarts. He was NEVER going to LEAD ANY TEAM to anything.

I think Sandy is an above average MLB defensive catcher. But even so, the catcher has limited impact on pitching performance.

[Sox75]

I totally agree with this. I was worried about Sale all off season. Something is not right with him.

I was thinking the same thing, and was not at all surprised to see him struggle. He was SO CLEARLY running on NOTHING but fumes at the end.

It explains jumping at & on a very good, but not great, deal from the Sox.

I'd feel better if they put him on the DL, & just let him get healthy. The deal is a done deal. Protect your long term investment.

[Jasonbay44]

Vazquez isn't even a "good defender" he's been declining in every important category from throwing out runners, pitch framing, defensive runs saved, DWAR. Whatever metric you want to use, he was awful last year.

I'm not saying Leon is great, he was a negative WAR player last year, but the bar for Red Sox catchers has been set very very low.

[notin]

I totally agree with this. I was worried about Sale all off season. Something is not right with him.

It’s a bit weird, but Sale’s struggles are somewhat of a League-wise thing. Kluber, deGrom, Syndegaard, Darvish, Nola, and a bunch of other alleged aces are all pitching like bottom-of-the-rotation arms. And some guy named Luis Castillo (team? Anyone?) is looking like Cy Young Incarnate...

[Jasonbay44]

It’s a bit weird, but Sale’s struggles are somewhat of a League-wise thing. Kluber, deGrom, Syndegaard, Darvish, Nola, and a bunch of other alleged aces are all pitching like bottom-of-the-rotation arms. And some guy named Luis Castillo (team? Anyone?) is looking like Cy Young Incarnate...

Not saying he deserves to be mentioned in an elite category or anything, but Castillo is actually really good young pitcher. He's gotten screwed by run support in previous years. I'm a fan of him.

[notin]

Vazquez isn't even a "good defender" he's been declining in every important category from throwing out runners, pitch framing, defensive runs saved, DWAR. Whatever metric you want to use, he was awful last year.

I'm not saying Leon is great, he was a negative WAR player last year, but the bar for Red Sox catchers has been set very very low.


Yeah I’m not as into Vazquez as a lot of Sox fans (and Cora) apparently are.

Now much like offensive metrics, defensive metrics can vary greatly from year to year. So it is possible Vazquez regains some of his former self...

[notin]

Not saying he deserves to be mentioned in an elite category or anything, but Castillo is actually really good young pitcher. He's gotten screwed by run support in previous years. I'm a fan of him.


Oh I am too. I grabbed him in two leagues. But he still lacks big name appeal, probably/possibly because he shares it with a former Marlins’ second baseman...

[fxkatt]

It’s a bit weird, but Sale’s struggles are somewhat of a League-wise thing. Kluber, deGrom, Syndegaard, Darvish, Nola, and a bunch of other alleged aces are all pitching like bottom-of-the-rotation arms. And some guy named Luis Castillo (team? Anyone?) is looking like Cy Young Incarnate...

Yes, it does seem this way. What makes it even weirder is that there seems to be a lot of weak lineups all around both leagues. Like what great lineup have we played against so far?? I'm sure tonight's Yanks lineup was hardly what they wanted to go up against Sale. Speaking of weak lineups, ours, while intact, is playing like one.

[Jasonbay44]

Oh I am too. I grabbed him in two leagues. But he still lacks big name appeal, probably/possibly because he shares it with a former Marlins’ second baseman...

That, plus playing for the Reds definitely hurts him. I doubt many people are tuning into Reds games. This is why I like fantasy baseball so much, keeps me up to date with random guys on random teams lol.

[devildavid]

It’s a bit weird, but Sale’s struggles are somewhat of a League-wise thing. Kluber, deGrom, Syndegaard, Darvish, Nola, and a bunch of other alleged aces are all pitching like bottom-of-the-rotation arms. And some guy named Luis Castillo (team? Anyone?) is looking like Cy Young Incarnate...

I don't know anything about those other pitchers. I do know that Sale has not been the same since July of last season.

[jung]

Vazquez isn't even a "good defender" he's been declining in every important category from throwing out runners, pitch framing, defensive runs saved, DWAR. Whatever metric you want to use, he was awful last year.

I'm not saying Leon is great, he was a negative WAR player last year, but the bar for Red Sox catchers has been set very very low.

Sandy will struggle to end up with a BA that starts with a .2 He has no batting talent or skills....none....zippo....nada. We have a pitcher in our 8 hole in a league with the DH rule. The only reason JBJ is batting 9th is because Cora hopes he gets on for Mookie. There is no hope of that with Sandy.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I never would have made this move. 1. If the Red Sox are going to have a down year, which is looking more and more likely, it would have made sense to keep and play a player like Swihart. Vazquez and Leon are garbage and they will never be anything but garbage. At least Swihart has potential. 2. Sandy Leon is not a major league caliber hitter; he isn't a major league caliber player.

Bottom line: the Red Sox will be in the market for a starting C in 2020.

[Bellhorn04]

I never would have made this move. 1. If the Red Sox are going to have a down year, which is looking more and more likely, it would have made sense to keep and play a player like Swihart.

So you think the team should start making decisions after 17 games on the basis that the next 145 don't matter?

[notin]

I never would have made this move. 1. If the Red Sox are going to have a down year, which is looking more and more likely, it would have made sense to keep and play a player like Swihart. Vazquez and Leon are garbage and they will never be anything but garbage. At least Swihart has potential. 2. Sandy Leon is not a major league caliber hitter; he isn't a major league caliber player.

Bottom line: the Red Sox will be in the market for a starting C in 2020.


Some of us thought they needed one for 2019...

[moonslav59]

Can we just be honest for 1 min....

Yes. The SPing seems to like Sandy. Sandy is a good, but not great defensive catcher. Vaz is a good defensive catcher with very decent skills, but obviously no head for catching a game, & giving the SR CONFIDENCE that HE IS THE GUY to guide them seamlessly through a game.

Swi? A very decent athlete.... not to bright. With how hum baseball skills & baseball smarts. He was NEVER going to LEAD ANY TEAM to anything.

Honestly, Leon is a GREAT defensive catcher.

This doesn't mean he's the answer to our problems, but let's be totally honest, here.

[Sox75]

Look, I like Sandy. In fact, I love the guy.
But, "great?" Come on now. He's a good defensive catcher, but he's clearly past his prime.

When you combine his offensive game, the case for him being labelled a "GREAT" catcher is closed.
He simply isn't.

Now, clearly the Sox are capable of hiding him in a GREAT hitting lineup, but when the rest of the guys are struggling, he is a standout MAJOR HOLE in the lineup.

[Bellhorn04]

Some of us thought they needed one for 2019...

Not me. They won 119 games with Vazquez & Leon, and they already had baseball's biggest payroll without adding someone like Cervelli.

[Bellhorn04]

Look, I like Sandy. In fact, I love the guy.
But, "great?" Come on now. He's a good defensive catcher, but he's clearly past his prime.

When you combine his offensive game, the case for him being labelled a "GREAT" catcher is closed.
He simply isn't.

Now, clearly the Sox are capable of hiding him in a GREAT hitting lineup, but when the rest of the guys are struggling, he is a standout MAJOR HOLE in the lineup.

Swihart's ability to be a consistently good hitter has yet to be proven either.

Most catchers can't hit.

[Bellhorn04]

Cervelli currently has a 485 OPS, BTW, so Vazquez is outhitting him.

[Sox75]

Swihart's ability to be a consistently good hitter has yet to be proven either.

Most catchers can't hit.

No doubt about it. I've said this since the beginning with Swi, whom I also like. BUT, he simply put has NEVER had a good hitting season in the majors or the minors.
It is beyond me when folks impute "excellent" offensive player to Swi, let alone good or even pretty good.
He's never put together a good hitting season.

[Sox75]

All you have to do is Google Swi's minor league hitting stats. 1 decent season.

BUT, because he is considered a "great" athlete, & versatile, he gets a great deal of undue credit for things he simply is not. Such as, a good to plus mlb player.
He is not. Still love the kid, & wish him all the best.

On top of that, our SR has never fallen close to in love with his game behind the plate. Not even a mild crush.

Now Sandy? They do like Sandy!

[Sox75]

All of this begs the question????

Why is Vaz not progressing as a catcher & mlb hitter?
He does not seem to be making great strides in his game.
I think it's time the Sox start targeting a catcher?
idk.... 3 catchers has always made me wonder???
What the hell is the problem?

[notin]

All of this begs the question????

Why is Vaz not progressing as a catcher & mlb hitter?
He does not seem to be making great strides in his game.
I think it's time the Sox start targeting a catcher?
idk.... 3 catchers has always made me wonder???
What the hell is the problem?

Vazquez, like Hanley and Crawford and Sandoval and possibly Sale before, might be suffering from Contract Complacency Syndrome. It’s a rare disease whereupon a player’s abilities are zapped away by the simple act of signing his name...

[Bellhorn04]

Vazquez, like Hanley and Crawford and Sandoval and possibly Sale before, might be suffering from Contract Complacency Syndrome. It’s a rare disease whereupon a player’s abilities are zapped away by the simple act of signing his name...

Betts, on the other hand, might be suffering from Future Contract Anxiety Syndrome.

[Hitch]

Betts, on the other hand, might be suffering from Future Contract Anxiety Syndrome.

There's one good way to get around that... :D

[notin]

Cervelli currently has a 485 OPS, BTW, so Vazquez is outhitting him.

Wilson Ramos has a .780 OPS and was available for roughly the cost of Steve Pearce...

[Kimmi]

i think it depends. I think if you are a cy young caliber pitcher making 20+ million a year, , it shouldn’t matter.

It shouldn't matter, but reality says that it does.

When a pitcher has his A game working, he can pitch to any catcher. When a pitcher just doesn't have it, it doesn't matter who the catcher is, the pitcher will stink. It's the vast majority of the games where the pitcher is somewhere in between that a catcher can make a difference.

[Kimmi]

Nice to see this transaction worked.

As most of us have said, the pitching woes are not Swihart's fault. That said, Leon will likely make a difference in how well the pitchers pitch.

Spot on tweet from Koch:

Bill Koch‏ @BillKoch25 7h7 hours ago

Chris Sale has thrown 100+ innings to four catchers. - Sale career OPS/Leon OPS - .621/.561 - Sale career K-BB/Leon K/BB - 5.27/7.76
Rick Porcello has thrown 100+ innings to five catchers. - Porcello career OPS/Leon OPS - .746/.731 - Porcello career K-BB/Leon K-BB - 3.12/4.74

Those aren't especially small samples. They are noteworthy differences. This isn't to say the #RedSox handled the Blake Swihart situation well, be it developing the player or maximizing his value. They certainly did not. But locking into this rotation could force concessions.

[Kimmi]

I listened to the Dombrowski interview and he said that there were many different opinions on the Swihart situation, but it "finally became my decision" and he cut Swihart. That is a comment that reeks of discord in the front office

There is no discord in the FO. If I read the interview correctly, Dombrowski was talking about the decision to keep Swihart over Leon at the beginning of the season, not the decision to cut Swihart.

Cora wanted Leon from the beginning. That is evident by how little playing time Swihart got last year. Dombrowski made the business decision to keep Swihart rather than the baseball decision of keeping Leon. I believe they were all on the same page in calling Leon back up.

[Kimmi]

Vazquez isn't even a "good defender" he's been declining in every important category from throwing out runners, pitch framing, defensive runs saved, DWAR. Whatever metric you want to use, he was awful last year.

I'm not saying Leon is great, he was a negative WAR player last year, but the bar for Red Sox catchers has been set very very low.

Vazquez has not lived up to his defensive hype, but he is still performing rather well with regards to pitch framing.

Also, Cora obviously sees something in his game calling skills.

[Kimmi]

Not me. They won 119 games with Vazquez & Leon, and they already had baseball's biggest payroll without adding someone like Cervelli.

!!!

[Kimmi]

There's one good way to get around that... :D

But then he would suffer from Contract Complacency Syndrome. :D

[notin]

But then he would suffer from Contract Complacency Syndrome. :D


Unless he was insinuating a trade of Betts...

[Kimmi]

Unless he was insinuating a trade of Betts...

Hmm...

[Hitch]

Ha! I was not.

[Needorsilloback]

So I guess Swihart is the scapegoat for the starters not being prepared for the start of the season...okay, then.

100% agree. Throw Swihart under the bus thinking he's the reason for the slow start. Mookie, Xander, JD will all come around but the issue to me is the bats of Pearce, Nunez and Bradley. No better CF in baseball than JBJ but his offense is not what you need from a CFer.

[notin]

Ha! I was not.


Too late!!


I’ve already placed you on the “Trade Betts” bus! In fact, I have you as the driver...

[dgalehouse]

The catching situation should have been addressed during the off season . Apparently, the front office decided to rest up and take a long winter's nap . Not a good idea .

[Bellhorn04]

Wilson Ramos has a .780 OPS and was available for roughly the cost of Steve Pearce...

Sure, and I know you mentioned Ramos, but we also discussed Cervelli because there were rumors about him.

So I'm picking on the guy whose stats suck right now and you're picking the guy whose don't LOL

[notin]

Sure, and I know you mentioned Ramos, but we also discussed Cervelli because there were rumors about him.

So I'm picking on the guy whose stats suck right now and you're picking the guy whose don't LOL


I also mentioned Grandal, whose rocking MLB pitching right now. I wondered if DD was hoping for a Moustakas type situation, but Grandal did get paid.

And maybe/hopefully DD was hoping Grandal would go all Moustakas...

[a700hitter]

I also mentioned Grandal, whose rocking MLB pitching right now. I wondered if DD was hoping for a Moustakas type situation, but Grandal did get paid.

And maybe/hopefully DD was hoping Grandal would go all Moustakas...Grandal can’t catch.

[Sox75]

Aren't we missing the elephant in the room. It seems neither Vaz or Swi is capable of calling a game. The pitches are coming from the dugout?

[Hitch]

Too late!!


I’ve already placed you on the “Trade Betts” bus! In fact, I have you as the driver...

I'm already driving the 'Bring Back John Farrell' bus! A man can only take so much on!

[Bellhorn04]

Aren't we missing the elephant in the room. It seems neither Vaz or Swi is capable of calling a game. The pitches are coming from the dugout?

No, they're not coming from the dugout. This was confirmed when Cora criticized Swihart for not following the game plan in one of E-Rod's starts.

[jung]

No, they're not coming from the dugout. This was confirmed when Cora criticized Swihart for not following the game plan in one of E-Rod's starts.

Clearly the Sox Coaching staff and most particularly AC/DL plotted out ERod's 1st inning in his last game. Pretty obvious that he was instructed that he would only throw 4 seam FB's in that inning come hell or high water. Vaz would only put down 1 finger and ERod would only throw 4 seams. I have little doubt that the coaches left ERod and Vaz no choice, no wiggle room in that. That launched ERod into his best start of the season and pretty much the best start of the entire rotation to date in 2019.

Beyond what they are clearly doing with ERod, I don't think the calls are coming from the bench.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Erod has his fastball and is locating it, there is no reason for him to give another look the first time through the order barring a long at bat

[jung]

If Erod has his fastball and is locating it, there is no reason for him to give another look the first time through the order barring a long at bat

True....but neither ERod nor Vaz on their own are smart enough to figure that out....proven time and time again. Hence I cannot credit either one of them for how that 1st inning was plotted out.

Plus I don't think it was done specifically because anybody knew Erod would have a decent FB but to coerce confidence in a pitch from Erod who only has either no confidence in pitches or is neutral to them. "You are only going to throw 4 seams in the first inning Erod. SO THROW GOOD ONES!"

Left to his own devices, the glass is always half empty for Erod.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Wilson Ramos has a .780 OPS and was available for roughly the cost of Steve Pearce...

Good point.

[moonslav59]

I'm already driving the 'Bring Back John Farrell' bus! A man can only take so much on!

If he would accept the pitching coach job, I'd be all in!

[notin]

No, they're not coming from the dugout. This was confirmed when Cora criticized Swihart for not following the game plan in one of E-Rod's starts.


A moment that was likely instrumental in his DFA...

[jung]

Look folks, there is little sense in crying over the Swi DFA. Swi was NEVER going anywhere here. The organization does not believe in him. I actually have trouble understanding why the Sox drafted him in the first round and then did what they did with him. They have chucked this kid under the bus from day 1.

I do think Swi's hitting is overrated and his potential as a catcher is also overrated. But IMO, they took whatever this kid had and dropped it down a rathole. They can't help themselves with Swi. Any chance they ever had to throw this kid under the bus, they did it. They toss him in Fenway OF, the most physically dangerous OF in baseball across the three positions with predictable results. They have a disgusting start to this season. Their rotation can't pitch its way out of a paper bag save Price....SORT OF. What do they do?....They throw Swi under the bus after the ERod start with the "We did not stick to the plan" comment. Then as Sale's NY start comes up they DFA the kid to bring up Leon. How did that work out for us?

So to be honest, I am more concerned about the mentality that created this mess than I am about the fact of Swi because the Sox were NEVER going to do anything with Swi whether he is talented or not! Deal with it Sox fans. Let the kid at least try to have a career someplace where an entire organization is not spending excessive amounts of gray matter trying to throw him under the bus.

Final insult to injury, Swi gets to play the scapegoat for a team that can't pitch, can't hit, and can't field and came out of ST completely unprepared to play with a stunningly obtuse plan for the rotation that will have blown up in their faces unless and only unless they can get to the ALCS. That is the only way this grand Cora strategy works out.

[moonslav59]

jung:

I, respectfully, disagree.I actually think the Sox bent over backwards to give Swihart every and any chance he could possibly have to stick in the majors and he never proved he belonged.

[harmony]

jung:

I, respectfully, disagree.I actually think the Sox bent over backwards to give Swihart every and any chance he could possibly have to stick in the majors and he never proved he belonged.


I wish Blake Swihart the best but I'm with moonslav59 on this assessment.

[dgalehouse]

Let's face it . When the Sox feel the need to turn to a career ham and egger like Sandy Leon as the answer to their problems , it reeks of desperation . The catching situation should have been addressed during the off season .

[jung]

jung:

I, respectfully, disagree.I actually think the Sox bent over backwards to give Swihart every and any chance he could possibly have to stick in the majors and he never proved he belonged.




Did you not read this quote from my post?
"I do think Swi's hitting is overrated and his potential as a catcher is also overrated."

They decided to make a conversion at Catcher their 1st round draft pick. What the fuck was that about?

I am saying that whatever Swi had, they simply did not care to try to exploit. That said, how does that excuse what they actually did to him over the course of the time he was here and the way they have exited him. Sorry...does not wash...not with me regardless of the fact that I have probably been the most vocal critic of Swi in this forum!

Probably should:
-never have brought him here
- hever have kept him here as long as the did
- never have used him like they did including that LF experiment that ended predictably
- should not have scapegoated the kid and dumped him on his rear end as a means to cover for their new Golden Boy at Manager, Alex Cora

[notin]

Did you not read this quote from my post?
"I do think Swi's hitting is overrated and his potential as a catcher is also overrated."

They decided to make a conversion at Catcher their 1st round draft pick. What the fuck was that about?



That happens all the time. Players switch to new positions either in the minors or after being drafted. I heard an interview with Brandon Inge once where he talked about being drafted. Inge was a shortstop at VCU and an expected high pick. When he got the call that he was a second round selection of the Tigers, he was relieved. That lasted for a minute or two when the Tiger scout called back and told him “By the way, you’re going to be a catcher...”

[harmony]

Did you not read this quote from my post?
"I do think Swi's hitting is overrated and his potential as a catcher is also overrated."

They decided to make a conversion at Catcher their 1st round draft pick. What the fuck was that about?

In June 2011 the Red Sox drafted Blake Swihart as a catcher:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2011/drafttracker.jsp

... after Swihart started catching during his junior year in high school:

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/34578/prospect-swihart-catching-on-quickly

Don't blame Swihart for being overhyped.

[Bellhorn04]

Let's face it . When the Sox feel the need to turn to a career ham and egger like Sandy Leon as the answer to their problems , it reeks of desperation . The catching situation should have been addressed during the off season .

When you win 3 straight division titles and a World Series with Vazquez and Leon doing most of the catching, it doesn't really seem to be such a bad 'situation' as far as I can see!

[jung]

In June 2011 the Red Sox drafted Blake Swihart as a catcher:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?year_ID=2011&draft_round=1&draft_type=junreg&query_type=year_round

... after Swihart started catching during his junior year in high school:

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/34578/prospect-swihart-catching-on-quickly

Don't blame Swihart for being overhyped.

How did you pull "don't blame Swi for being overhyped out of my posts? How does that make any sense. Its the organization's job to know what they are doing and why they are doing it.

Frankly, by the way, very few catchers are made out of whole cloth during their baseball careers and if they are, you better devote them to full time catching from the moment you make that decision. You want your kid to be a catcher, stick a mask on his head and a catcher's mitt on his hand about when he pops out of the womb.

Don't forget as well, the little experiment in LF completely stilted for over a year Swi's development as a potential professional catcher and completely stilted his development as a professional hitter. They either wanted a catcher, converted or not or they did not. They were IMO yanking meat the entire time. I would bet real money that Swi was handled this way throughout his amateur career as well..."athletic, can play multiple positions, good bat"...frankly those guys end up playing all over the diamond in amateur ball. Once they get to pro ball, if you really are trying to convert him to a pro ball Catcher you LET HIM CATCH.....PERIOD! None of this LF nonsense in the most physically dangerous OF (Fenway) in all baseball across all three positions.

[moonslav59]

Did you not read this quote from my post?
"I do think Swi's hitting is overrated and his potential as a catcher is also overrated."

They decided to make a conversion at Catcher their 1st round draft pick. What the fuck was that about?

I am saying that whatever Swi had, they simply did not care to try to exploit. That said, how does that excuse what they actually did to him over the course of the time he was here and the way they have exited him. Sorry...does not wash...not with me regardless of the fact that I have probably been the most vocal critic of Swi in this forum!

Probably should:
-never have brought him here
- hever have kept him here as long as the did
- never have used him like they did including that LF experiment that ended predictably
- should not have scapegoated the kid and dumped him on his rear end as a means to cover for their new Golden Boy at Manager, Alex Cora

I think they bent over backwards to give him all the chances possible to make the bigs, including tries at other positions.

He failed and failed and then failed again.

Yes, he was "over-rated" in many ways, but the fact that he got so many chances shows me the organization "believed in him" too much--not like you claimed.

Swihart threw himself under a bus, or he just never had what it takes all along.

[moonslav59]

How did you pull "don't blame Swi for being overhyped out of my posts? How does that make any sense. Its the organization's job to know what they are doing and why they are doing it.

Frankly, by the way, very few catchers are made out of whole cloth during their baseball careers and if they are, you better devote them to full time catching from the moment you make that decision. You want your kid to be a catcher, stick a mask on his head and a catcher's mitt on his hand about when he pops out of the womb.

Don't forget as well, the little experiment in LF completely stilted for over a year Swi's development as a potential professional catcher and completely stilted his development as a professional hitter. They either wanted a catcher, converted or not or they did not. They were IMO yanking meat the entire time. I would bet real money that Swi was handled this way throughout his amateur career as well..."athletic, can play multiple positions, good bat"...frankly those guys end up playing all over the diamond in amateur ball. Once they get to pro ball, if you really are trying to convert him to a pro ball Catcher you LET HIM CATCH.....PERIOD! None of this LF nonsense in the most physically dangerous OF (Fenway) in all baseball across all three positions.

The chance they gave him in LF is evidence they were willing to give him an extra chance to prove himself.

He was never going to be our catcher in any meaningful way. The injury in LF sucked, but let's not kid ourselves. The guy could have started 800 games at catcher and never proved he belonged.

[moonslav59]

When you win 3 straight division titles and a World Series with Vazquez and Leon doing most of the catching, it doesn't really seem to be such a bad 'situation' as far as I can see!

..and I'll add, it wasn't like we won despite Vaz & Leon. They were net pluses.

[notin]

When you win 3 straight division titles and a World Series with Vazquez and Leon doing most of the catching, it doesn't really seem to be such a bad 'situation' as far as I can see!

But it also doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement...

[jung]

I think they bent over backwards to give him all the chances possible to make the bigs, including tries at other positions.

He failed and failed and then failed again.

Yes, he was "over-rated" in many ways, but the fact that he got so many chances shows me the organization "believed in him" too much--not like you claimed.

Swihart threw himself under a bus, or he just never had what it takes all along.

So you think they actually gave Swi an opportunity to develop as a Catcher, the position they drafted him to fill. Were those other positional opportunities really opportunities or were they acts of team necessity because they had allowed Ramirez to talk them into the idea that he would actually WORK to be a LFer? Which do you really think that was?

[harmony]

So you think they actually gave Swi an opportunity to develop as a Catcher, the position they drafted him to fill. Were those other positional opportunities really opportunities or were they acts of team necessity because they had allowed Ramirez to talk them into the idea that he would actually WORK to be a LFer? Which do you really think that was?
In the nearly eight years since he was drafted as a catcher, Blake Swihart has played 477 professional games, including 432 starts, at catcher.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=swihar000bla

[Bellhorn04]

But it also doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement...

'Room for improvement' applies to just about everything...

[Kimmi]

If he would accept the pitching coach job, I'd be all in!

Yes, I really liked Farrell as a pitching coach.

[Kimmi]

I think they bent over backwards to give him all the chances possible to make the bigs, including tries at other positions.

He failed and failed and then failed again.

Yes, he was "over-rated" in many ways, but the fact that he got so many chances shows me the organization "believed in him" too much--not like you claimed.

Swihart threw himself under a bus, or he just never had what it takes all along.

I have to disagree with this.

Swihart was jerked around for most of his career here with Boston. Twice, he was pulled from his catching role after a very short sample. One day, they say they are committed to keeping him at catcher, the next day they have him playing LF or 1B.

The Sox never really gave him a fair chance to succeed.

[Kimmi]

But it also doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement...

But it wouldn't have necessarily been an improvement.

[notin]

'Room for improvement' applies to just about everything...


If you had to pick one position from the 2018 lineup to improve upon, which one would you have picked?

[Kimmi]

In the nearly eight years since he was drafted as a catcher, Blake Swihart has played 477 professional games, including 432 starts, at catcher.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=swihar000bla

That amounts to about 60 games a season, spread out over 8 years, back and forth between Boston and Pawtucket, and back and forth between positions. That's not the consistent playing time that a developing player needs.

[notin]

That amounts to about 60 games a season, spread out over 8 years, back and forth between Boston and Pawtucket, and back and forth between positions. That's not the consistent playing time that a developing player needs.

He did play nothing but catcher until 2016...

[Kimmi]

He did play nothing but catcher until 2016...

Right, and he was called up and put into action before he was ready. That was due to injury, I understand, but that still did not allow Swihart the proper development that he needed.

In Swihart's defense, he did a very admirable job in 2015.

[Bellhorn04]

If you had to pick one position from the 2018 lineup to improve upon, which one would you have picked?

Pitching.

[illinoisredsox]

What we don’t know is any behind the scenes stuff. What did the professionals see developmentally that us arm chair types didn’t? Was there an attitude issue? Maybe the drive wasn’t there to push himself to get better. Maybe he lost confidence because of what happened to him. These are things we will never know. And maybe, just maybe he wasn’t good enough to start with. It will be interesting to see if anyone picks him up.

It is a shame he got hurt, but that happens all the time, and first round picks flame out quite a bit. I’m with those who think he got many chances to prove himself and for whatever reason he just never did. Maybe he will somewhere else.

[harmony]

Blake Swihart, the No. 26 pick in the 2011 draft, has advanced further than most No. 26 picks over the past two decades:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?overall_pick=26&draft_type=junreg&query_type=overall_pick&from_type_jc=0&from_type_hs=0&from_type_4y=0&from_type_unk=0

The fruitful years for No. 26 picks were 1976 and 1977.:)

[notin]

Pitching.


I was hoping you might interpret “position from the lineup” to NOT mean pitching. Improving pitching is a given for every team every year. It’s just as vague as “room for improvement”...

[dgalehouse]

Pitching.

Well , we didn't exactly improve the pitching either . Lost Kimbrel and Kelly , and added Colten Brewer and Erasmo Ramirez . A net loss by any measure .

[Bellhorn04]

I was hoping you might interpret “position from the lineup” to NOT mean pitching. Improving pitching is a given for every team every year. It’s just as vague as “room for improvement”...

My mistake. I honestly didn't think our lineup needed any significant improvement. I would have thought getting another catcher would have been a move for the sake of making a move.

[Bellhorn04]

Well , we didn't exactly improve the pitching either . Lost Kimbrel and Kelly , and added Colten Brewer and Erasmo Ramirez . A net loss by any measure .

Getting Eovaldi for a full season was supposed to be an improvement, certainly over what it would have been if we let him walk. Obviously the results haven't been there yet.

[notin]

My mistake. I honestly didn't think our lineup needed any significant improvement. I would have thought getting another catcher would have been a move for the sake of making a move.


Not necessarily. Analytically our catching was bottom of the MLB barrel.

[moonslav59]

Not necessarily. Analytically our catching was bottom of the MLB barrel.

Not when looking at pitch framing, blocking bad pitches and CERA related areas.

[notin]

Not when looking at pitch framing, blocking bad pitches and CERA related areas.

Looking at a bigger picture like WAR, you are...

[moonslav59]

Looking at a bigger picture like WAR, you are...

WAR does not count some things, especially the intangibles related to the pitcher-catcher relationship.

They sure do suck on offense.

[notin]

WAR does not count some things, especially the intangibles related to the pitcher-catcher relationship.

They sure do suck on offense.


But outside of CERA, which is questionable, what does quantify that relationship?

[Bellhorn04]

But outside of CERA, which is questionable, what does quantify that relationship?

Let me know when any strategic/coaching aspect of any sport has been properly quantified.

[notin]

Let me know when any strategic/coaching aspect of any sport has been properly quantified.

Then how do you know they even exist or are effective?

[moonslav59]

But outside of CERA, which is questionable, what does quantify that relationship?

Just because it is not quantifiable does not mean it does not exist or cant be significantly impactful.

CERA, when used correctly, can quantify it to some extent, but it is far from perfect for many reasons. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence when you listen closely to the level of praise each catcher gets from various pitchers.

It's about comfort levels, pitch sequencing/calling and the ability to adjust a game plan on the fly based on experience and a vast knowledge of the batters.

[moonslav59]

Then how do you know they even exist or are effective?

Well, CERA, as you mentioned, does show a very significant differential between Leon and Vaz/Swihart with Sale & Price. The sample sizes are pretty large.

Career

Sale:
2.50 with Leon (1273 PAs)
4.50 with Vaz (279 PAs)
3.23 everyone else but Leon over his whole career

Price:
2.83 with Leon (769 PAs)
4.32 with Vaz/Swihart (1234 PAs)
3.31 with everyone else over his whole career

Do we "know" these numbers are all because of Leon? No, of course not, but do we know a career .300 hitter is a better hitter than a .295 one, since so many factors go into how a hit becomes a hit and is ruled a hit or an error?

[notin]

Just because it is not quantifiable does not mean it does not exist or cant be significantly impactful.

CERA, when used correctly, can quantify it to some extent, but it is far from perfect for many reasons. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence when you listen closely to the level of praise each catcher gets from various pitchers.

It's about comfort levels, pitch sequencing/calling and the ability to adjust a game plan on the fly based on experience and a vast knowledge of the batters.



But all of that is so unknown and so dependent on so many factors.

For example, the pitcher/catcher relationship. I realized how important this was watching how Hideo Nomo suddenly became less effective when Varitek got hurt. But that doesn’t mean it takes years to build. Jose Molina, for example, changed teams more often than many people change underwear, but was certainly able to establish himself with many pitchers very quickly.

The issue with intangible arguments is they get categorized two ways: “worked” and “didn’t work.” And this simple method leaves many thinking “worked” is good enough and there is no need/little room/small possibility for improvement. The fact is there is an infinite array of possibilities, and the new ones aren’t all bad...

[notin]

Well, CERA, as you mentioned, does show a very significant differential between Leon and Vaz/Swihart with Sale & Price. The sample sizes are pretty large.

Career

Sale:
2.50 with Leon (1273 PAs)
4.50 with Vaz (279 PAs)
3.23 everyone else but Leon over his whole career

Price:
2.83 with Leon (769 PAs)
4.32 with Vaz/Swihart (1234 PAs)
3.31 with everyone else over his whole career

Do we "know" these numbers are all because of Leon? No, of course not, but do we know a career .300 hitter is a better hitter than a .295 one, since so many factors go into how a hit becomes a hit and is ruled a hit or an error?



The hitting analogy can be expanded further. I would argue a .295 hitter is the same as a .300 hitter with the caveat that there are numerous other stats to help separate them. I think you agree a .295/.380/.550 hitter is better than a .300/.330/.415 hitter.

As with CERA, there is a danger with small sample sizes regarding opponents. A pitcher and catcher who have 100PAs together against the three worst offensive teams can be very misleading. Or in 3 pitcher-friendly parks. Like all stats, we hope the larger sample sizes even it out. But like with a lot of other stats, it doesn’t always.

And more important, fearing the unknown and accepting the status quo simply because it worked once is dangerous. Cherington found this out in 2014, and it lead to bad decisions that plague the Sox to this day...

[Maxbialystock]

Right, and he was called up and put into action before he was ready. That was due to injury, I understand, but that still did not allow Swihart the proper development that he needed.

In Swihart's defense, he did a very admirable job in 2015.

Really? I just checked the AL catcher DWAR's for 2015. Leon's was .7, Hanigan's .3, and Swihart's -.4. He caught in 83 games and started 78 as catcher.

[Maxbialystock]

Well , we didn't exactly improve the pitching either . Lost Kimbrel and Kelly , and added Colten Brewer and Erasmo Ramirez . A net loss by any measure .

You forgot Pomeranz. Losing him was a net plus, maybe a big net plus. Kelly right now is carrying a pitching WAR of -.6 and an ERA of 10.8, so I'm not sure he was such a big loss.

As for Kimbrel, yes, a loss, but probably inevitable because he wants a lot of money, more than he is worth. Also, I doubt Kimbrel could have helped us so far. We've had 5 save opportunities and blown 1--last night in the 7th inning, an inning in which Kimbrel has never, ever pitched.

[Bellhorn04]

Then how do you know they even exist or are effective?

Some things I accept on faith.

I think Bill Belichick is probably a better than average coach and strategist, but I can't prove it.

[notin]

Some things I accept on faith.

I think Bill Belichick is probably a better than average coach and strategist, but I can't prove it.


I think it’s easy to prove Belichick’s superiority, and in a very quantifiable way. Check his fingers.

But as for the intangible/faith qualities, it’s not about existence. Sure they exist. It’s about acceptance and complacency. When the team thinks “well this worked last year,” they’re ignoring that it worked in a different league. Other teams around, particularly the closer ones, will improve. And what worked when those were lesser teams might not work so well when they’re better ones. Especially since this process involves evaluating one small part of a very large machine.

Sure, there is the adage “if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.” But just because it isn’t broken doesn’t mean it’s optimized...

[moonslav59]

The hitting analogy can be expanded further. I would argue a .295 hitter is the same as a .300 hitter with the caveat that there are numerous other stats to help separate them. I think you agree a .295/.380/.550 hitter is better than a .300/.330/.415 hitter.

As with CERA, there is a danger with small sample sizes regarding opponents. A pitcher and catcher who have 100PAs together against the three worst offensive teams can be very misleading. Or in 3 pitcher-friendly parks. Like all stats, we hope the larger sample sizes even it out. But like with a lot of other stats, it doesn’t always.

And more important, fearing the unknown and accepting the status quo simply because it worked once is dangerous. Cherington found this out in 2014, and it lead to bad decisions that plague the Sox to this day...

I assumed everything else was equal when I made the .300 vs .295 hitter but failed to say it.

If you look at Sale's sample size, the 1200+ PAs is like two full seasons for a hitter. He's about 3/4 of a run better with Leon than all the other catchers combined. Of course, there could be other factors that helped create that gap beyond anything Leon did differently, but when you don't see any other starting pitchers with much worse numbers with Leon, I think one can accurately surmise that Leon makes a big difference with some pitchers and maybe not much with others, but is rarely negative with any large sample size pitcher. Yes, the Vazquez/Swihart sample size is not that large, but everyone else combined is!

Maybe it's not 0.75 just because of Leon, but even if he was responsible for 0.25 to 0.50, that is far and away enough to offset his .450 OPS on offense.

The gap with Price, to me, seems even more striking when you figure his years with Boston have been spotty, and he was not in prime years, yet he still blows away the rest of the catchers combined than when he's with leon.

[moonslav59]

Really? I just checked the AL catcher DWAR's for 2015. Leon's was .7, Hanigan's .3, and Swihart's -.4. He caught in 83 games and started 78 as catcher.

Even Kimmi fell for the decent catcher OPS Swihart had in 2015.

How quickly Swihart was removed in 2016 was a strong sign of how Sox top brass has viewed Swihart;'s catching skills.

[moonslav59]

You forgot Pomeranz. Losing him was a net plus, maybe a big net plus. Kelly right now is carrying a pitching WAR of -.6 and an ERA of 10.8, so I'm not sure he was such a big loss.


Yes! I've made this point as well.

It goes beyond Pom...

IP ER Lost from 2018:
74 50 Pom
66 32 Kelly
17 14 Cuevas
8 4 Haley
7 6 Scott
6 9 Beeks

178 IP- 115 ER

5.81 ERA Non Kimbrel

2.74 Kimbrel (62 IP and 19 ER)

All combined:

240 IP

134 ER

5.05 ERA

[Bellhorn04]

I think it’s easy to prove Belichick’s superiority, and in a very quantifiable way. Check his fingers.

But you can deconstruct that as evidence too.

Maybe it's all Tom Brady.

Maybe Belichick is a great GM but not a great coach or strategist.

[oldtimer]

I think it’s easy to prove Belichick’s superiority, and in a very quantifiable way. Check his fingers.

But as for the intangible/faith qualities, it’s not about existence. Sure they exist. It’s about acceptance and complacency. When the team thinks “well this worked last year,” they’re ignoring that it worked in a different league. Other teams around, particularly the closer ones, will improve. And what worked when those were lesser teams might not work so well when they’re better ones. Especially since this process involves evaluating one small part of a very large machine.

Sure, there is the adage “if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.” But just because it isn’t broken doesn’t mean it’s optimized...
We just had a grear year and also found ourselves up against the 2nd tier of the competitive balance spending limit. Other teams have and had more leeway We did sign Eovaldi and Sale and got Bogie for the long term. It was probably questionable to have taken on Pedroia's contract but players like Kelly and Kimbrel were financially off limits. So what do you think we could have done better to optimize the team given the circumstances.


The starters are only now coming closer to form but need run and defensive support. The suggestion is that ST was not adequate to get them off to a good start.

Our hitting has some holes. Mookie is having a tough start as is JBJ. About the only thing we might have done is trade JBJ in the off season as an optimization move. The fact that these guys are struggling is more about readiness and focus. Maybe JBJ just has these periods where he loses his ability to hit.

We didn't make the hard decisions at 2nd base and had given Dustin a long term contract. That has come back to bite us and was somewhat predictable.

A question to consider, based on what has happened is set in stone, its what can be done going forward?

My thoughts include:

1. Shore up 2nd base immediately
2. Reconsider our BP and bring up at least one youngster and let go of our poorest performer.
3. Move Mookie down in the lineup as a way of getting him started

I don't see much more we can do now, although I would reconsider trading JBJ at the halfway point if he is still stuck in a subpar hitting performance.

[notin]

We just had a grear year and also found ourselves up against the 2nd tier of the competitive balance spending limit. Other teams have and had more leeway We did sign Eovaldi and Sale and got Bogie for the long term. It was probably questionable to have taken on Pedroia's contract but players like Kelly and Kimbrel were financially off limits. So what do you think we could have done better to optimize the team given the circumstances.


The starters are only now coming closer to form but need run and defensive support. The suggestion is that ST was not adequate to get them off to a good start.

Our hitting has some holes. Mookie is having a tough start as is JBJ. About the only thing we might have done is trade JBJ in the off season as an optimization move. The fact that these guys are struggling is more about readiness and focus. Maybe JBJ just has these periods where he loses his ability to hit.

We didn't make the hard decisions at 2nd base and had given Dustin a long term contract. That has come back to bite us and was somewhat predictable.

A question to consider, based on what has happened is set in stone, its what can be done going forward?

My thoughts include:

1. Shore up 2nd base immediately
2. Reconsider our BP and bring up at least one youngster and let go of our poorest performer.
3. Move Mookie down in the lineup as a way of getting him started

I don't see much more we can do now, although I would reconsider trading JBJ at the halfway point if he is still stuck in a subpar hitting performance.


Once the financial implications became clear, I was critical of the Pearce signing. And when Wilson Ramos signed for something like $1.5mill more, I found it disappointing. In fact, the Sox could have signed Ramos, and cut Thornburg and/or Leon (assuming no one wanted Vazquez) and saved cash and maybe even had a better team. Heck, for less than the cost of Pearce, Thornburg, and Leon, the Sox could have brought in Ramos, Alex Wilson and lefty-mashing 1b Danny Valencia.

But it’s too late for that now.

Fixing 2b? Lin and eventually Chavis, assuming he works out.

Bullpen? Domingo Tapia is off to a great start in Pawtucket. I’ve never been a fan of Workman or Johnson, and Thornburg May never be the pitcher he was in Milwaukee again. Or keep Ramirez in there.

As for moving Betts, opinions seem to be divided. Some want him leading off. Some want him further down. I like the idea of keeping him 2nd. But he has to get going at some point...

[Kimmi]

Really? I just checked the AL catcher DWAR's for 2015. Leon's was .7, Hanigan's .3, and Swihart's -.4. He caught in 83 games and started 78 as catcher.

I'm not sure what you are arguing with me about.

I'm not saying Swihart was great. I'm saying that for someone who was called up well before he was ready and thrown into the fire, he did an admirable job.

[Kimmi]

Then how do you know they even exist or are effective?

A lot of this you have to take by what others, pitchers and coaches/managers, are saying about the player. When a player is highly touted in some way by the people who work most closely with him, there is probably some truth to it.

Outside of that, BP or somebody once did a study on catchers with a focus on how Varitek didn't get the defensive credit he deserved. This was before Leon's time, but the point is that analytics people are so good that they can take the data, and eliminate virtually every variable possible, thereby leaving no other reasonable explanation than the catcher's 'handling of the pitcher' or 'pitch calling ability' or whatever you want to call it.

We do not have access to a more recent study, but I bet the teams have access to some such study.

[notin]

A lot of this you have to take by what others, pitchers and coaches/managers, are saying about the player. When a player is highly touted in some way by the people who work most closely with him, there is probably some truth to it.

Outside of that, BP or somebody once did a study on catchers with a focus on how Varitek didn't get the defensive credit he deserved. This was before Leon's time, but the point is that analytics people are so good that they can take the data, and eliminate virtually every variable possible, thereby leaving no other reasonable explanation than the catcher's 'handling of the pitcher' or 'pitch calling ability' or whatever you want to call it.

We do not have access to a more recent study, but I bet the teams have access to some such study.


So therefore it is quantifiable, just by metrics we can’t find on Fangraphs...

[Kimmi]

I think it’s easy to prove Belichick’s superiority, and in a very quantifiable way. Check his fingers.

But as for the intangible/faith qualities, it’s not about existence. Sure they exist. It’s about acceptance and complacency. When the team thinks “well this worked last year,” they’re ignoring that it worked in a different league. Other teams around, particularly the closer ones, will improve. And what worked when those were lesser teams might not work so well when they’re better ones. Especially since this process involves evaluating one small part of a very large machine.

Sure, there is the adage “if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.” But just because it isn’t broken doesn’t mean it’s optimized...

One of the factors hindering the team's improvement was the financial constraints that were placed on Dombrowski.

Dombrowski did improve the team in the areas that he felt most needed improvement, which were starting pitching and having the Pearce/Moreland platoon for the entire season. I really don't agree that the team had a sense of complacency and stood pat over the offseason. The truth is that the team really didn't have much need for improvement to begin with. They did improve where they felt it was most necessary. They just didn't improve in the areas that some people felt like they should have because the FO had different priorities.

[Kimmi]

Even Kimmi fell for the decent catcher OPS Swihart had in 2015.

What?

[Maxbialystock]

I'm not sure what you are arguing with me about.

I'm not saying Swihart was great. I'm saying that for someone who was called up well before he was ready and thrown into the fire, he did an admirable job.

You're right I guess. But, honestly, I think 2015 was the year that poisoned the well for management's perception of Swihart's catching ability. Fair or unfair, the Sox have generally avoided having him catch MLB games in the now 4 succeeding seasons. Last year was a complete stunner: they kept him on the active roster, but didn't let him catch a game until Leon or Vazquez went on the DL.

In defense of your position, I will add that this year Swihart caught the entirety of one of the Sox few wins--a shutout by the bullpen.

[Kimmi]

So therefore it is quantifiable, just by metrics we can’t find on Fangraphs...

More quantifiable than some think.

Nothing will ever be 100% quantifiable when dealing with human beings. But yes, the analytics people have a good handle on such things, though they will fully admit they still have a long way to go in completely understanding pitch calling ability, which in no way means that what they do have is useless or wrong.

[notin]

One of the factors hindering the team's improvement was the financial constraints that were placed on Dombrowski.

Dombrowski did improve the team in the areas that he felt most needed improvement, which were starting pitching and having the Pearce/Moreland platoon for the entire season. I really don't agree that the team had a sense of complacency and stood pat over the offseason. The truth is that the team really didn't have much need for improvement to begin with. They did improve where they felt it was most necessary. They just didn't improve in the areas that some people felt like they should have because the FO had different priorities.

They lost two key pitchers at the back end of the bullpen and instead spent a big chunk of the remaining budget on the backup 1b. I do find those to be questionable priorities.

It felt like Dombrowski was so impressed with himself for finding Brasier, that he decided he could easily find a few more Brasiers. Hard-throwing? Check. Nowhere near an MLB team last year? Check. Come on aboard, Runzler, Ellington, Schlereth, Tapia, and Putnam...

[Bellhorn04]

You're right I guess. But, honestly, I think 2015 was the year that poisoned the well for management's perception of Swihart's catching ability. Fair or unfair, the Sox have generally avoided having him catch MLB games in the now 4 succeeding seasons. Last year was a complete stunner: they kept him on the active roster, but didn't let him catch a game until Leon or Vazquez went on the DL.

In defense of your position, I will add that this year Swihart caught the entirety of one of the Sox few wins--a shutout by the bullpen.

I think Dave Dombrowski actually likes Swihart a lot. DD says he was the one who 'broke the tie' in the organization about whether Leon or Swihart would be DFA'd earlier.

Then all hell broke loose with the pitching.

Swihart has suffered from a lot of bad luck among other things.

[Kimmi]

You're right I guess. But, honestly, I think 2015 was the year that poisoned the well for management's perception of Swihart's catching ability. Fair or unfair, the Sox have generally avoided having him catch MLB games in the now 4 succeeding seasons. Last year was a complete stunner: they kept him on the active roster, but didn't let him catch a game until Leon or Vazquez went on the DL.

In defense of your position, I will add that this year Swihart caught the entirety of one of the Sox few wins--a shutout by the bullpen.

I really don't have a problem with the Sox calling Swihart up in 2015. They had no choice.

It's the way they handled him afterwards. IMO, they panicked in 2016 after a handful of games, as they did this year. They gave him almost no playing time last year, but kept him on the roster.

Either give him a fair chance to catch or don't. Stop with this in between stuff.

[moonslav59]

What?

Well, you did say, "he did an admirable job."

Since his only plus that year was offense, I made the assumption.

[Kimmi]

They lost two key pitchers at the back end of the bullpen and instead spent a big chunk of the remaining budget on the backup 1b. I do find those to be questionable priorities.

It felt like Dombrowski was so impressed with himself for finding Brasier, that he decided he could easily find a few more Brasiers. Hard-throwing? Check. Nowhere near an MLB team last year? Check. Come on aboard, Runzler, Ellington, Schlereth, Tapia, and Putnam...

Well I happen to agree with Dombrowski on prioritizing other areas to spend on besides the bullpen. I have always felt it unwise to give huge contracts to relievers and spend big on the pen. I applaud him on his BP strategy this year.

It's okay that you disagree with his priorities. Most people do.

But again, my point is that we didn't stand pat. We made improvements, just not in the areas that you would prefer.

[moonslav59]

I really don't have a problem with the Sox calling Swihart up in 2015. They had no choice.

It's the way they handled him afterwards. IMO, they panicked in 2016 after a handful of games, as they did this year. They gave him almost no playing time last year, but kept him on the roster.

Either give him a fair chance to catch or don't. Stop with this in between stuff.

They had to keep him on the roster, because he was out of options.

He wasn't good enough to play everyday.

They tried to give him chances to prove himself at other positions, but he failed (or got hurt) there, too.

When he still had options, he sucked in the minor, too (after 2014).

He has sucked from 2015 to 2019 with a brief streak of decent hitting in 2015. Even that was 3 years ago!

I just don't agree with the position that he "wasn't given a chance." The guy got more chances than he deserved.

[Kimmi]

Well, you did say, "he did an admirable job."

Since his only plus that year was offense, I made the assumption.


He did do an admirable job for a catcher who was nowhere ready for such a large role on a major league team.

Truth be told, I wasn't even talking about offense at all.

A catcher's offense means very little to me.

[moonslav59]

He did do an admirable job for a catcher who was nowhere ready for such a large role on a major league team.

Truth be told, I wasn't even talking about offense at all.

A catcher's offense means very little to me.

He really didn't do a great job on defense and with the staff in 2015--certainly not in the "admirable" category even considering the conditions.

It's not like the guy was years away from ML ready. He was our starting catcher to start 2016 as well. He played AAA ball in 2014 and had an .810 OPS between AA & AAA that year. They may have called him up at some point in 2015 anyways.

2015 CERA:

3.47 Leon
4.51 Swihart

4.34 Team

[Kimmi]

They had to keep him on the roster, because he was out of options.

He wasn't good enough to play everyday.

They tried to give him chances to prove himself at other positions, but he failed (or got hurt) there, too.

When he still had options, he sucked in the minor, too (after 2014).

He has sucked from 2015 to 2019 with a brief streak of decent hitting in 2015. Even that was 3 years ago!

I just don't agree with the position that he "wasn't given a chance." The guy got more chances than he deserved.

When you demote a guy after 8 games one season and try to make him a LFer, then 17 ? games in another season, that is not a fair chance.

When a player stays on a roster an entire season and gets almost no playing time, that is not a fair chance.

When you say Swihart will focus solely on catching a certain year, then shortly thereafter have him taking reps at different positions, that is not a fair chance.

[moonslav59]

When you demote a guy after 8 games one season and try to make him a LFer, then 17 ? games in another season, that is not a fair chance.

It wasn't just those 8 games that decided his fate that season. Vaz was coming off an injury, and there was a decent enough sample size to show he was not a good catcher. He then had a chance in AAA after the demotion, and he sucked (.655 OPS in AAA). He even got called back up later in 2016, and he did nothting to distinguish himself.

When a player stays on a roster an entire season and gets almost no playing time, that is not a fair chance.
He got a chance when Vaz got hurt. He never showed anything promising after his 2014 season in the minors. He played in over 300 games from 2015-2019. While most were scattered and interupted, that's still more games than many other failed prospects ever get to see while playing so poorly.

When you say Swihart will focus solely on catching a certain year, then shortly thereafter have him taking reps at different positions, that is not a fair chance.
To me, it was way more than fair. He sucks as a catcher, so they gave him a second, third and fourth chance to make it at other positions. They did him a favor!

He failed with every chance we gave him.

[Kimmi]

When you demote a guy after 8 games one season and try to make him a LFer, then 17 ? games in another season, that is not a fair chance.

It wasn't just those 8 games that decided his fate that season. Vaz was coming off an injury, and there was a decent enough sample size to show he was not a good catcher. He then had a chance in AAA after the demotion, and he sucked (.655 OPS in AAA). He even got called back up later in 2016, and he did nothting to distinguish himself.

When a player stays on a roster an entire season and gets almost no playing time, that is not a fair chance.
He got a chance when Vaz got hurt. He never showed anything promising after his 2014 season in the minors. He played in over 300 games from 2015-2019. While most were scattered and interupted, that's still more games than many other failed prospects ever get to see while playing so poorly.

When you say Swihart will focus solely on catching a certain year, then shortly thereafter have him taking reps at different positions, that is not a fair chance.
To me, it was way more than fair. He sucks as a catcher, so they gave him a second, third and fourth chance to make it at other positions. They did him a favor!

He failed with every chance we gave him.

We will have to just disagree Moon.

You aren't going to convince me that he was given a fair chance and that he wasn't jerked around.

I know I'm not going to convince you either.

[moonslav59]

We will have to just disagree Moon.

You aren't going to convince me that he was given a fair chance and that he wasn't jerked around.

I know I'm not going to convince you either.

How many prospects that are doing poorly end up sticking around that long?

That get chances to change positions to stick around, despite hitting poorly?

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, and I get the point that he never really got many extended chances to "prove himself," but when he did, he did not do well, even in AAA.

Yes, he was hurt for some of the time, but he basically sucked from 2015 to 2019. That's a long time to give someone doing so poorly.

[dgalehouse]

How many prospects that are doing poorly end up sticking around that long?

That get chances to change positions to stick around, despite hitting poorly?

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, and I get the point that he never really got many extended chances to "prove himself," but when he did, he did not do well, even in AAA.

Yes, he was hurt for some of the time, but he basically sucked from 2015 to 2019. That's a long time to give someone doing so poorly.
One last parting shot at Swihart as he exits .

[moonslav59]

One last parting shot at Swihart as he exits .

I think the guy got more chances than his performance deserved.

The whole "He never got a real chance" argument rings hollow to me. He did nothing since AA ball way back in 2014 to warrant being given an extended look anywhere.

IMO, Sox management bent over backwards to accommodate him and help him find any way to stick in the bigs.

There was a time I had high hopes for Swihart, as many of us did. I hope he finds a way to get that long extended look-see, just so we can all know what player he really is.

[Sox75]

Can both sides actually be right?
Yes!
Swi's history in the minors NEVER justified 'a shot' in the majors in the first place. All you have to do is look at his minor league stats to absolutely confirm that. His hitting stats were anemic even in the minors. I find it incredible that SO MANY Sox Fans here still impute "good hitting" catcher to a guy who has NEVER hit well. He manifestly has never hit well, yet some are absolutely convinced that he has.....

So..... the Sox were forced to bring him up originally as a panic move. They did not have another option at that time, so they called up Swi. Eventually, they threw him into LF for Hanley, & the rest was history.

After that, they have kept Swi up with the big team in a bizarre attempt to keep giving him chances where none was ever warranted. Time & time again, they've continued to keep him up, but never give him "a shot," knowing that he was only there as an insurance policy. They knew he wasn't ready as a catcher in the minors, but seemed to want to keep him up to market him for a trade.

The whole thing was a sick joke. He was never going to "prove himself" because the ONLY thing he really has going for him is the fact that he is a very good athlete.
He will never be a really good catcher, but he could potentially become a half-decent backup catcher with a floundering team.

Bottom line....

Kimmi is correct that Swi was never really given 'a shot,' to play consistently, but Moon is correct that Swi has never had the goods to deserve a shot. He never should have been called up in the first place.

Now, perhaps he gets a consistent shot to prove himself somewhere? I don't think things change that much for him.
He still needs to play everyday ..... in the minors.

[moonslav59]

Can both sides actually be right?
Yes!
Swi's history in the minors NEVER justified 'a shot' in the majors in the first place. All you have to do is look at his minor league stats to absolutely confirm that. His hitting stats were anemic even in the minors. I find it incredible that SO MANY Sox Fans here still impute "good hitting" catcher to a guy who has NEVER hit well. He manifestly has never hit well, yet some are absolutely convinced that he has.....

So..... the Sox were forced to bring him up originally as a panic move. They did not have another option at that time, so they called up Swi. Eventually, they threw him into LF for Hanley, & the rest was history.

After that, they have kept Swi up with the big team in a bizarre attempt to keep giving him chances where none was ever warranted. Time & time again, they've continued to keep him up, but never give him "a shot," knowing that he was only there as an insurance policy. They knew he wasn't ready as a catcher in the minors, but seemed to want to keep him up to market him for a trade.

The whole thing was a sick joke. He was never going to "prove himself" because the ONLY thing he really has going for him is the fact that he is a very good athlete.
He will never be a really good catcher, but he could potentially become a half-decent backup catcher with a floundering team.

Bottom line....

Kimmi is correct that Swi was never really given 'a shot,' to play consistently, but Moon is correct that Swi has never had the goods to deserve a shot. He never should have been called up in the first place.

Now, perhaps he gets a consistent shot to prove himself somewhere? I don't think things change that much for him.
He still needs to play everyday ..... in the minors.

Well said, but I will add that the argument that "He was never given a real chance" implies he deserved one, and that he never got one. I disagree on both fronts.

Besides, he actually got a pretty long look when he was the starter for about a half a year. He hit decently that year (good for a catcher), but never showed growth on defense or "staff-handling." He started the next season, and when they saw no further growth on defense, he was quickly (and rightfully) replaced- pretty much for good as a catcher.

He got a pretty good look last year, when Vaz got hurt, and again did not distinguish himself.

How many prospects, who never did great in the minors, sticks around so long with much of it on the ML roster?

I'm okay with what happened, but I get worked up when people say, "He never got a chance!"

IMO, he got more chances (including looks at other positions), more time and more looks than anyone with his record deserved.

I can name dozens of ex-Sox prospects who had great minor league careers and got 1/10th the chances Swihart got. Some, who went elsewhere proved they never belonged, but even if Swihart goes on to prove he does belong, I will still believe we gave him more opportunities than he deserved.

[Slasher9]

3-0 since the trade....

[a700hitter]

To sum up, Swi stinks.

[mvp 78]

3-0 since the trade....

Dbags were on a 4 game winning streak prior to the trade. 1-2 since.

[SCM33]

3-0 since the trade....


To sum up, Swi stinks.


Dbags were on a 4 game winning streak prior to the trade. 1-2 since.

HAHAHAHA.

The poor guy hasn't even had an AB yet!

[Larry33]

I knew Swihart had no chance to clear waivers luckily he got traded. Mike Hazen and Torey Lovullo were familiar with Blake from their time with the Red Sox organization. Plus if he would've hit waiver the Blue Jays would've probably claimed him with Ben Cherrington in their front office as VP of baseball operations he the one who drafted him in the first round back in 2011.

[mvp 78]

HAHAHAHA.

The poor guy hasn't even had an AB yet!

That's how horrible his stank is.

[Slasher9]

HAHAHAHA.

The poor guy hasn't even had an AB yet!

Exactly. He’s such a good catcher but still can’t get into a game...collusion!

[mvp 78]

Exactly. He’s such a good catcher but still can’t get into a game...collusion!

But Leon IS ONLY IN AAA AND NOBODY WANTS HIM AND IS A NO GOOD POOPY FACE WHO IS FAT. Or something.

3-0 and counting since the trade.

[a700hitter]

I knew Swihart had no chance to clear waivers luckily he got traded. Mike Hazen and Torey Lovullo were familiar with Blake from their time with the Red Sox organization. Plus if he would've hit waiver the Blue Jays would've probably claimed him with Ben Cherrington in their front office as VP of baseball operations he the one who drafted him in the first round back in 2011.
He stinks.

[Thunder]

That's how horrible his stank is.

Meanwhile I'm in love with Chavis so far. I know it's an apples to oranges comparison, but still. And I think the Leon effect has already been seen on the rotation

[mvp 78]

Meanwhile I'm in love with Chavis so far. I know it's an apples to oranges comparison, but still. And I think the Leon effect has already been seen on the rotation

I just really liked the Chavis interview after his first game. Seems like a real down to earth guy who knows how to game prep. Thumbs up from me so far.

[Thunder]

I just really liked the Chavis interview after his first game. Seems like a real down to earth guy who knows how to game prep. Thumbs up from me so far.

It's funny to me how he took Swihart's number. Real slap in the face, but I like it

[mvp 78]

It's funny to me how he took Swihart's number. Real slap in the face, but I like it

It was his high school number, so maybe he liked it more than the other options.

https://kronozio.com/card/bdd66d3a-45b5-4654-bd61-4902e7cd9e41/2014-Panini-Panini-Prizm-Perennial-Draft-Picks-Michael-Chavis-24

[SCM33]

Sale is winless since they traded Swihart and brought Leon up.

I can play this game too :)

[SCM33]

Thank god for Vasquez. We cant win a game with the fat slob behind the plate. Things look great when Vasquez is catching.

Not to mention, Vasquez can hit a tiny bit, which the fat slob cant do.

[SCM33]

Swihart is 1-4 with an RBI and batting .250 since the trade.

Swihart is starting in RF tonight for the Dbacks.

Leon is batting .000 and Chris Sale is still winless.

Leon is too fat to play another position.

[Slasher9]

Swihart is 1-4 with an RBI and batting .250 since the trade.

Swihart is starting in RF tonight for the Dbacks.

Leon is batting .000 and Chris Sale is still winless.

Leon is too fat to play another position.

Do you think the Sox should have kept and played swi in RF and benched betts?