Hanrahan's Injury

[Thunder]

Sox closer is visiting Dr. James Andrews tomorrow, and when that happens, it's usually bad. He is listed as having a "forearm strain", so how bad to you think this injury actually is?

[User Name?]

UCL tear followed by TJ surgery.

[a700hitter]

The bullpen was the most improved part of the team over the off season. I thought the improved bullpen would pickup 10 games for the team. Losing Hanrahan will be a huge blow.

[mvp 78]

UCL tear followed by TJ surgery.

TJ surgery? In my day, you'd just take a swig of castor oil, run out there lickety split and hope your third sacker can make some plays. Take your skirt off Hanrahan.

[Palodios]

TJ surgery? In my day, you'd just take a swig of castor oil, run out there lickety split and hope your third sacker can make some plays. Take your skirt off Hanrahan.

Well done.:lol:

[VA Sox Fan]

TJ surgery? In my day, you'd just take a swig of castor oil, run out there lickety split and hope your third sacker can make some plays. Take your skirt off Hanrahan.

:lol::thumbsup:

[a700hitter]

TJ surgery? In my day, you'd just take a swig of castor oil, run out there lickety split and hope your third sacker can make some plays. Take your skirt off Hanrahan.Hmmm. Is this the type of not so subtle poking/ridicule that YOTN referred to yesterday? I guess poking and ridicule is okay as long as the target is an approved target.

[jung]

TJ surgery? In my day, you'd just take a swig of castor oil, run out there lickety split and hope your third sacker can make some plays. Take your skirt off Hanrahan.

Seems to me you would nee two swigs of caster oil if your "third sacker" was Ciriaco!:D:blink:

[mvp 78]

Difference being, my post isn't directed at anyone in particular.

FYI, every post on here isn't directed at you or Fred. You are still free to take it personally if you'd like, but I've been ignoring you since the Marathon and am not interested in your nonsense anymore.

[mvp 78]

Seems to me you would nee two swigs of caster oil if your "third sacker" was Ciriaco!:D:blink:

You'd have to have a chaser of Sasparilla to go with it.

[a700hitter]

Difference being, my post isn't directed at anyone in particular.

FYI, every post on here isn't directed at you or Fred. You are still free to take it personally if you'd like, but I've been ignoring you since the Marathon and am not interested in your nonsense anymore.To echo a sentiment on the forum from yesterday, we all know what you meant, chump. At least when I ridicule someone, I have the guts to name them and not hide behind some thinly veiled lame excuse that you didn't name the person you were so clearly ridiculing. BTW, who mentioned Fred? Not me. You did, but I guess your snark was not directed at him. You are only here to shout you snarky insults from the bleachers while trying to blend in as another face in the crowd. That's nonsense and cowardly. That is directed right at you.

[mvp 78]

No, it's called having fun. You should try it sometime, you'd be less miserable.

In all honesty, I didn't say anything that was remotely offensive. I'm not sure why anyone on here would be bothered by what I wrote.

You can continue attacking me for no reason, but I don't really care.

[User Name?]

For the record, i think lickety split is an awesome, awesome term.

[Station 13]

Hanrahan hasn't been here all-season. I wonder if that 5BB/9 last season was the beginning of his fall.

[a700hitter]

No, it's called having fun. You should try it sometime, you'd be less miserable.

In all honesty, I didn't say anything that was remotely offensive. I'm not sure why anyone on here would be bothered by what I wrote.

You can continue attacking me for no reason, but I don't really care.Your post was nothing more than ridicule. I wouldn't expect you to understand that ridicule is offensive behavior, because without ridicule you have no material. Your remarks are never good natured humor. You wouldn't know how to do that. It would be like Wayne Newton trying to rap.

I have fun everyday. I am having fun right now. I don't hate every boss that I have ever had and I don't change jobs like underwear. So, tell me who is miserable?

[mvp 78]

Hanrahan hasn't been here all-season. I wonder if that 5BB/9 last season was the beginning of his fall.

It was a bad 2nd half, right? It's definitely not looking good though. I hope he's not Jenks 2.0.

So, trade Salty for some relief help?

[SoxSport]

How the hell are we supposed to know "how bad this is"? Maybe you mean how bad is it for the Red Sox they have two closers who can't stay healthy?

[Station 13]

It was a bad 2nd half, right? It's definitely not looking good though. I hope he's not Jenks 2.0.

So, trade Salty for some relief help?

He is Jenks 2.0

Way outta shape and a guy who had a lot of issues last season ought to work harder to be in better physical shape. He had some lingering issues throughout his career. Go figure.

[iortiz]

it?s funny how much money we have spent in shitty closers and let go Papelbon. Whata waste of money.

[User Name?]

It would be hilarious if league-minimum making Tazawa became an effective closer.

[jacksonianmarch]

He has a black and blue and swollen elbow. Pronator strain is not the diagnosis

[a700hitter]

Hanrahan hasn't been here all-season. I wonder if that 5BB/9 last season was the beginning of his fall.That is an excellent point. I have heard the theory that injuries start to manifest themselves in a loss of command. He was walking the ballpark at the end of last season.

[VA Sox Fan]

Red Sox call up RHP Jose De La Torre


Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff May 9, 2013 10:34 AM

The Red Sox have added depth to their battered bullpen by calling up righthander Jose De La Torre. The news came from general manager Ben Cherington on WEEI this morning.

De La Torre, 27, has appeared in 10 games for Triple A Pawtucket. He has allowed three earned runs on five hits with 10 walks and 17 strikeouts over 17.1 innings.

De La Torre has no major league experience. He was acquired from the Indians for infielder Brent Lillibridge last July 24.

The Red Sox invited De La Torre to spring training. He appeared in five games, pitching six innings and striking out six with three walks.

De La Torre joined Puerto Rico for the World Baseball Classic and pitched well in six games there, striking out 12 and walking one over 5.2 innings.

Via email, Cherington said he was working on the 40-man roster move to make room for De La Torre.

[a700hitter]

De La Torre is a huge step down from Hanrahan.

[SoxFanForsyth]

De La Torre is a huge step down from Hanrahan.

Considering how bad Hanrahan has been, it really isn't. Can't confuse a name with production. If someone named Johnson put up Hanrahan's numbers, we would all be pumped that a kid with 3 ER in 17 IP and a strikeout an inning was coming up from AAA

[a700hitter]

it?s funny how much money we have spent in shitty closers and let go Papelbon. Whata waste of money.The term "penny-wise and pound foolish" would not apply here, because we have thrown tons of money at guys that have been complete busts as closers. Bailey and Hanrahan will make arounfd a combined $12 million this year. Hopefully, one of them can step in and take secure the closer's role this season-- a role that Papelbon will ably fill for the Phillies for $13 million this season.

[italstallianion]

Countdown until "balky biceps" diagnosis.... :)

[a700hitter]

Considering how bad Hanrahan has been, it really isn't. Can't confuse a name with production. If someone named Johnson put up Hanrahan's numbers, we would all be pumped that a kid with 3 ER in 17 IP and a strikeout an inning was coming up from AAAGranted, I was talking about historic production and the expectations at the time Hanrahan was acquired. Much more was expected from Hanarahn than De La Torre who has never pitched in the majors. We will probably get more from De La Torre, but that will not be because he will be such a surprise, but rather because Hanrahan will cut cut open.

[italstallianion]

I don't think we expect much at this point. Just throw the ball over the plate, don't walk guys, and don't get injured. I doubt we'd use him in leverage situations.

[a700hitter]

I don't think we expect much at this point. Just throw the ball over the plate, don't walk guys, and don't get injured. I doubt we'd use him in leverage situations.Yep, that's about it.

[Thunder]

Hanrahan moved to 60 Day DL, essentially ending his season, because that means that he may need TJ.

[Station 13]

Another one bites the dust. Hopefully Bailey can return and stay off the DL.

Our GM loves fat relievers. <_<

[BSN07]

Sox should be in on Wilson when he is ready. His beard will fit nicely on the team

[a700hitter]

Is Wison fat enough for our FO to consider?

[jung]

Holy Cats!!! Hanrahan to the 60 day DL and maybe to TJ! Boy BC is going to have to make some hard decisions regarding pitching.

[iortiz]

Another one bites the dust. Hopefully Bailey can return and stay off the DL.

Our GM loves fat relievers. <_<

.... and pay them a lot.

[BSN07]

Is Wison fat enough for our FO to consider?

We could throw in on one of those sumo suits right? That should get him past the eyeball test haha

[iortiz]

Is Wison fat enough for our FO to consider?

Not sure but I just figured out why Pap is not longer here :lol:

[Palodios]

Being fat means a pitcher is more durable.

--argument given by fat people.

[BSN07]

Being fat means a pitcher is more durable.

--argument given by fat people.

CC has that phrase tattooed on his lower-mid back

[iortiz]

... and Colon lol

[iortiz]

just noticed that Hanrahan has Ian Scott Anderson (JethroTull) look :lol:

[VA Sox Fan]

Not new news but kinda of a relief....no pun intended...

Joel Hanrahan placed on 60-day disabled list; season in doubt

Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff May 9, 2013 04:50 PM

The Red Sox placed Joel Hanrahan on the 60-day disabled list today to make room on the 40-man roster for righthanded reliever Jose De La Torre.

Hanrahan had been placed on the 15-day disabled list Tuesday with a flexor muscle strain. He is now on his way to Birmingham, Ala., to be examined by Dr. James Andrews Friday.

Regardless of the diagnosis, Hanrahan will be out at least two months and likely more.

"Once we got the initial MRI, it seemed that was a possibility," Sox manager John Farrell said. "Not knowing the extent or total number of days, we felt it was still going to require some recovery time. Then when you factor in the build-up back from that, it felt like it was going to be a couple of months total at a minimum."

There is concern that Hanrahan could have a torn ulnar collateral ligament. That would require Tommy John surgery.

"We can't rule it out," Farrell said. "But yet I don't know that there's information that's in hand to date that says it's definite ligament issues. That's where tomorrow's exam will be valuable in that area."

Hanrahan also could have surgery to repair the flexor muscle.

"That's been part of the discussion," Farrell said. "That's where he's got to get his arms around the situation with as much information as possible and make the decision at that point."

But even if surgery can be avoided, Hanrahan will not be back for at least two months — if then.

"Best case is the conservative treatment," Farrell said. "That is rest, rehab, recovery, and return to action. That's the best I can tell you right now."

Is there any hope that Hanrahan pitches again for the Red Sox this season?

"At this point, yes," Farrell said. "If everything were to respond favorably to that conservative course of action then, yes, that's a possibility."

The Sox are also without backup closer Andrew Bailey, who went on the disabled list Monday. Junichi Tazawa now has the job.

"A healthy Joel Hanrahan getting injured is a blow for anyone," said Farrell. "A guy that's been a very successful pitcher, I don't know that you can just necessarily replace a guy of his abilities and talents.

"But regardless of the injuries that we're dealing with right now, our expectation and our level of play shouldn't be compromised by that.

"That's the expectation here, to go out every night, to prepare and put a game together to win."

[VA Sox Fan]

Not sure but I just figured out why Pap is not longer here :lol:

No choice but to let the Pap situation go. Done and done...


just noticed that Hanrahan has Ian Scott Anderson (JethroTull) look :lol:

:lol: Don't offend Ian Anderson that way!!!!!

[Northern Star]

Sox closer is visiting Dr. James Andrews tomorrow, and when that happens, it's usually bad. He is listed as having a "forearm strain", so how bad to you think this injury actually is?

Bad?? This injury is great news.

[SoxSport]

If only closers were as durable as GMs.

[MJantomaso]

I met Hanrahan and Shane Vic at Famous Daves BBQ in Ft. Myers. Hanrahan had about 10 sweet teas, 3lbs of brisket and enough texas toast to feed an African village. He made Vic look like he had the appetite of a Victoria Secret model.

[Station 13]

Was Bobby Jenks there too?

[mvp 78]

Is there a correlation between weight and arm troubles that I'm not aware of?

"Hey Strasburg, go eat another donut you fat pig!"

[BornToRun]

What's Keith Foulke up to these days?

[Dojji]

This is why you don't try to go cheap on the back end of your bullpen. How much talent has the failure to retain Papelbon's services already cost us? The fallout from two failed trades and now possibly a third on the horizon as well.

[Dojji]

What's Keith Foulke up to these days?

Nevermind Foulke, I want to go to the Dodgers and see what their asking price is on Kenley Jansen. I'm through with third-string options. Pay what it takes to bring in a guy you KNOW will get the job done, stop the bleeding for a few years, and move on to other problems.

[a700hitter]

Nevermind Foulke, I want to go to the Dodgers and see what their asking price is on Kenley Jansen. I'm through with third-string options. Pay what it takes to bring in a guy you KNOW will get the job done, stop the bleeding for a few years, and move on to other problems.Are you getting fed up with the late inning roller coaster of disaster of the last few years. A good closer is a very stabilizing force for a team. People that think otherwise don't realize tht teams that go from closer to closer on a year by year basis have inconsistent performances from year to year. They will point to the Rays and say that they have been successful, but with Rodney shitting the bed 3 out of 4 games and turning back into Rodney, they have lost several games late and they are fighting Toronto for last place. Will they right their ship? Yes, if Rodney rights his ship or they replace him. The Rays rolled the dice and got lucky with pigs like Farnsworth and Rodney for a few years. It's not a good strtategy IMO. Get a good closer without arm trouble and lock him up for a few years.

[Dojji]

Are you getting fed up with the late inning roller coaster of disaster of the last few years.

I was fed up with it before it started. I was calling this happening while people were still cavalierly underestimating what they were letting go when they let Paps walk.

[iortiz]

This is why you don't try to go cheap on the back end of your bullpen. How much talent has the failure to retain Papelbon's services already cost us? The fallout from two failed trades and now possibly a third on the horizon as well.

Some people will never undersand this.

The funny thing is that they weren't cheap either on this the last 2 years. They had a solid proved durable closer and let him go. How much money have they spent in Jenks, Hanrahan, Bailey and not to mention all the failures on their experiments with Aceves, Padilla, Bard, etc. Hopefully they don't screw Tazawa and Koji arms too.

[Orange Juiced]

I really think Tazawa has what it takes to be a really good major league closer. Live fastball, excellent control. Let's look at his numbers the past two seasons:

2012: 44.0 ip, 37 h, 7 r, 7 er, 1 hr, 5 bb, 45 k
2013: 15.1 ip, 13 h, 5 r, 5 er, 2 hr, 3 bb, 19 k

TOT: 54 g, 59.1 ip, 50 h, 12 r, 12 er, 3 hr, 8 bb, 64 k, 1.82 era, 238 era+, 0.98 whip, 1.2 w/9, 9.7 k/9, throws 70% of his pitches for strikes

Those are TREMENDOUS numbers. He's just 27, makes peanuts, and won't become a free agent until 2017. This is the guy you want as your future closer.

[User Name?]

Cheap? They're paying Hanrahan 7 mill. :D

The problem wasn't letting go of Papelbon. He is not a mythical figure that they were not going to be able to replace. The problem wasn't getting an adequated replacement. They have had chances. I remember many here calling for Joe Nathan, who has had a renaissance with the Rangers in a tougher stadium.

Let's not pretend that "Paps" is impossible to replace, and that contract is still, (and time will show it ) an albatross. Let's acknowledge, however, their utter futility when it comes to getting an adequate replacement. The funny thing is that they may have the replacement in-house and may not even know it.

[a700hitter]

I was fed up with it before it started. I was calling this happening while people were still cavalierly underestimating what they were letting go when they let Paps walk.Yep, a few of us were right there with you sharing those concerns. I realize that they had no budget to sign himat the time, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have an impact. People had the attitude that he was over priced and we had no budget for it so therefore losing him didn't matter. It did matter, and since he left, I have been getting a new ulcer now each time we go to the 9th inning in a save situation.

[User Name?]

I really think Tazawa has what it takes to be a really good major league closer. Live fastball, excellent control. Let's look at his numbers the past two seasons:

2012: 44.0 ip, 37 h, 7 r, 7 er, 1 hr, 5 bb, 45 k
2013: 15.1 ip, 13 h, 5 r, 5 er, 2 hr, 3 bb, 19 k

TOT: 54 g, 59.1 ip, 50 h, 12 r, 12 er, 3 hr, 8 bb, 64 k, 1.82 era, 238 era+, 0.98 whip, 1.2 w/9, 9.7 k/9, throws 70% of his pitches for strikes

Those are TREMENDOUS numbers. He's just 27, makes peanuts, and won't become a free agent until 2017. This is the guy you want as your future closer.

Some people will never understand this: A closer is a guy who can get outs in pressure situations. Not a mythical creature, like a unicorn.

And for the record, Bailey will come back after the minimum 15 days. A lot of the whining will stop if he can hold up reasonably the rest of the seaosn,.

[a700hitter]

I really think Tazawa has what it takes to be a really good major league closer. Live fastball, excellent control. Let's look at his numbers the past two seasons:

2012: 44.0 ip, 37 h, 7 r, 7 er, 1 hr, 5 bb, 45 k
2013: 15.1 ip, 13 h, 5 r, 5 er, 2 hr, 3 bb, 19 k

TOT: 54 g, 59.1 ip, 50 h, 12 r, 12 er, 3 hr, 8 bb, 64 k, 1.82 era, 238 era+, 0.98 whip, 1.2 w/9, 9.7 k/9, throws 70% of his pitches for strikes

Those are TREMENDOUS numbers. He's just 27, makes peanuts, and won't become a free agent until 2017. This is the guy you want as your future closer.The only thing standing between him and being a good closer is doing it on the field-- the biggest hurdle of all.

[iortiz]

Are you getting fed up with the late inning roller coaster of disaster of the last few years. A good closer is a very stabilizing force for a team. People that think otherwise don't realize tht teams that go from closer to closer on a year by year basis have inconsistent performances from year to year. They will point to the Rays and say that they have been successful, but with Rodney shitting the bed 3 out of 4 games and turning back into Rodney, they have lost several games late and they are fighting Toronto for last place. Will they right their ship? Yes, if Rodney rights his ship or they replace him. The Rays rolled the dice and got lucky with pigs like Farnsworth and Rodney for a few years. It's not a good strtategy IMO. Get a good closer without arm trouble and lock him up for a few years.

1000000 times this.

We have been spending tons of money in closers anyways. Why experiment with a bulk of fat wounded thieves when you had the cream of the cream.

I'll never get it.

[Orange Juiced]

The only thing standing between him and being a good closer is doing it on the field-- the biggest hurdle of all.

I understand. But he's been terrific in high-leverage situations. This year, here's what he's done in high-leverage situations (as given by b-ref):

21 plate appearances
2 hits, 2 walks, 4 total base-runners
opponents hitting .105, getting on base at a .190 clip
allowing opponents to hit .506 ops

So he has been pretty dominant in hi-lev situations this year. I am willing to bet that he'd transition nicely into the closer's role.

Of course, if the Sox never have a close lead in the 9th we'll never know. :angry:

[Dojji]

Cheap? They're paying Hanrahan 7 mill. :D

The problem wasn't letting go of Papelbon. He is not a mythical figure that they were not going to be able to replace. The problem wasn't getting an adequated replacement.


While that's technically true, a large part of that problem is that the list of "adequate replacements" is a lot smaller than Red Sox fans believe it is.

[Orange Juiced]

Some people will never understand this: A closer is a guy who can get outs in pressure situations. Not a mythical creature, like a unicorn.

And for the record, Bailey will come back after the minimum 15 days. A lot of the whining will stop if he can hold up reasonably the rest of the seaosn,.

See my previous post here (http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/17323-hanrahans-injury-5.html#post838783). Tazawa *has* been getting guys out in pressure (high-leverage) situations. In dominant fashion, actually.

As for Bailey, he's been great this year and I want him back ASAP. But I'm not at all confident that he'll be back when you say he will. This tweet from Gordon Edes is not encouraging:

"Bailey said he played light game of catch Thurs, has no idea how soon he'll be back, but implied won't be ready to come off on May 14"

https://twitter.com/GordonEdes/status/332596028882702336

[iortiz]

The only thing standing between him and being a good closer is doing it on the field-- the biggest hurdle of all.

People will never understand that pitching in the last inning is totally different than in the 6,7,8. numbers simply go downhill mostly in pressure situations. Look at Aceves case. Great mid inning reliever pitcher and as a closer a total failure. Tons examples out there.

Hopefully Tazawa experiment works out.

[User Name?]

While that's technically true, a large part of that problem is that the list of "adequate replacements" is a lot smaller than Red Sox fans believe it is.

Current closers the Red Sox had a the possibility of acquiring after Papelbon departed:

Joe Nathan
Rafael Betancourt
Rafael Soriano
Casey Janssen
Andrew Bailey
Joel Hanrahan

Among those, they chose the fat one and the injury-prone one. There are some others that probably escape me, but Jesus, the Papelbon whining is reaching critical mass.

The contract is still stupid, and they could have replaced him adequately, but didn't.

There's also the fact that, by all accounts, Papelbon did not want to come back after the 2011 debacle. He didn't even give the Red Sox a chance to make an offer.

That's one thing that fans refuse to accept. Players are human beings, not robots, and they get to choose where they will play.

[User Name?]

People will never understand that pitching in the last inning is totally different than in the 6,7,8. numbers simply go downhill mostly in pressure situations. Look at Aceves case. Great mid inning reliever pitcher and as a closer a total failure. Tons examples out there.

Hopefully Tazawa experiment works out.

Dude, most closers are former 8th inning guys who earn the closer role:

Mariano set up for Wetteland.
Andrew Bailey was a set-up man.
Joe Nathan was a set-up man.
Jim Johnsonn was a set-up man.
K-Rod was a set-up man.
Sergio Romo (who makes next to nothing and is extremely effective) was a set-up man.

A closer is a reliever who can get outs in pressure situations. There's no reinventing the wheel here.

[Dojji]

Current closers the Red Sox had a the possibility of acquiring after Papelbon departed:

Joe Nathan
Rafael Betancourt
Rafael Soriano
Casey Janssen
Andrew Bailey
Joel Hanrahan


That's a pretty weak list.

[iortiz]

if you going are to spend 8-12 M/y in closers anyway, why not to lock out the one who has been solid, durable and mostly PROVED in your environment. Pap is still young and with so a lot of experience under his belt in arguably the toughest division to pitch in the last inning. The more I see Pap's numbers the more I think he deserves that contract. It's a shame he's wasting his time in Philly, they ain't going anywhere anyways.

[Station 13]

Amazing, Bailey continues to get injured year after year. I'd like to have him back soon, but how many times is enough with the unstable situation? I hope Tazawa works out and I am confident it will.

[Orange Juiced]

if you going are to spend 8-12 M/y in closers anyway, why not to lock out the one who has been solid, durable and mostly PROVED in your environment. Pap is still young and with so a lot of experience under his belt in arguably the toughest division to pitch in the last inning. The more I see Pap's numbers the more I think he deserves that contract. It's a shame he's wasting his time in Philly, they ain't going anywhere anyways.

Pap was great - superb numbers, durable, brought the attitude, everything. Unfortunately, he didn't want to stay with the Red Sox so he's no longer in the picture.

[User Name?]

That's a pretty weak list.

You only need one.

[iortiz]

Dude, most closers are former 8th inning guys who earn the closer role:

Mariano set up for Wetteland.
Andrew Bailey was a set-up man.
Joe Nathan was a set-up man.
Jim Johnsonn was a set-up man.
K-Rod was a set-up man.
Sergio Romo (who makes next to nothing and is extremely effective) was a set-up man.

A closer is a reliever who can get outs in pressure situations. There's no reinventing the wheel here.

that's not the point at all. Point is that you are in experimentation mode in this regard year after year and wasting tons of money too. When you have the solution to your problem, you just don't drop it. You just keep the ship that way.

[Station 13]

What bothers me is they keep going after these high risks that flops here. Just roll with Tazawa now. The first thing with relievers is pounding strikes, and have good stuff to back it up. Tazawa has both.

[iortiz]

Pap was great - superb numbers, durable, brought the attitude, everything. Unfortunately, he didn't want to stay with the Red Sox so he's no longer in the picture.
It's all about money. They did't even offer a contract. They (FO) didn't want him. He said that tons of times.

[iortiz]

Pap is great - superb numbers, durable, brought the attitude, everything. Unfortunately, he didn't want to stay with the Red Sox so he's no longer in the picture.

Fixed :lol:

[a700hitter]

Pap was great - superb numbers, durable, brought the attitude, everything. Unfortunately, he didn't want to stay with the Red Sox so he's no longer in the picture.Do you really think that he longed to settle in Philadelphia and he had been watching "House Hunters: Philadelphia" in his final year with the Red Sox? or do you think it might have had something to do with the fact that no one from the Sox even made an appointment with him to discuss his future? I think that it might have been the latter. There aren'tmany players that try to escape from Boston to get to Philly. That town sucks.

[User Name?]

that's not the point at all. Point is that you are in experimentation mode in this regard year after year and wasting tons of money too. When you have the solution to your problem, you just don't drop it. You just keep the ship that way.

Yeah you do. Lots of teams let go of expensive closers and find adequate replacements all the time. As much as you try to make Papelbon some irreplaceable figure, he isn't. This is squarely on the Red Sox' inability to identify a suitable replacement when they see it.

Again, Joe Nathan and Rafael Soriano were available in back-to-back off-seasons. They are both proven, effective, and cheaper, on shorter contracts.

[a700hitter]

Fixed :lol:Excellent point.

[mvp 78]

Papelbon didn't even want to play here anymore. Get over it.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon didn't even want to play here anymore. Get over it.

Of course, you would know what he wanted.:rolleyes:

[Orange Juiced]

Do you really think that he longed to settle in Philadelphia and he had been watching "House Hunters: Philadelphia" in his final year with the Red Sox? or do you think it might have had something to do with the fact that no one from the Sox even made an appointment with him to discuss his future? I think that it might have been the latter. There aren'tmany players that try to escape from Boston to get to Philly. That town sucks.

As far as I recall (I grant that my memory could be faulty here), Papelbon didn't even give the Sox a chance to match Philly's offer. It seemed like he wanted out pretty bad.

But whatever, what's done is done. Paps is long gone and he's not coming back here (I don't think anyway). The starting pitching imploded in September of 2011, the entire team basically sucked in 2012, and we have what we have. There is a very nice potential solution for this in-house in Tazawa. Hopefully Bailey comes back soon and is healthy the rest of the way, but I have confidence in Tazawa to get the job done.

[User Name?]

None of us do, but the writing is on the wall. He said himself he never gave the Sox a chance to counter-offer.

[iortiz]

Yeah you do. Lots of teams let go of expensive closers and find adequate replacements all the time. As much as you try to make Papelbon some irreplaceable figure, he isn't. This is squarely on the Red Sox' inability to identify a suitable replacement when they see it.

Again, Joe Nathan and Rafael Soriano were available in back-to-back off-seasons. They are both proven, effective, and cheaper, on shorter contracts.

I just can not find ANY closer (aside Mo) with Pap's numbers... and when I say numbers I mean it in all the categories (SV, ERA, IP, time, division, etc.) through 9 years in the ALE. You just won't find him dude. Since you won't find this guy, ALL the new guys you bring would be experiments, like has been since his departure, that's all my point and case. Unfortunately as I've been saying all those experiments have cost us tons of money, prospects, in some cases screwing some player's careers, and most important, WINS.

[iortiz]

Of course, you would know what he wanted.:rolleyes:

As I said, several times he said that our great FO didn't even showed interest in his services, so he had to consider other options. Plain and simple.

[User Name?]

I just can not find ANY closer (aside Mo) with Pap's numbers... and when I say numbers I mean it in all the categories (SV, ERA, IP, time, division, etc.) through 9 years in the ALE. You just won't find him dude. Since you won't find this guy, ALL the new guys you bring would be experiments, like has been since his departure, that's all my point and case. Unfortunately as I've been saying all those experiments have cost us tons of money, prospects, in some cases screwing some player's careers, and most important, WINS.

This is the problem you (and many others) have with player evaluation. What he DID is not what's important. What's important is what a player's projected TO DO over the life of a contract.

I couldn't care less about the past. All they need is an effective closer. It's that simple.

[Orange Juiced]

Yeah you do. Lots of teams let go of expensive closers and find adequate replacements all the time. As much as you try to make Papelbon some irreplaceable figure, he isn't. This is squarely on the Red Sox' inability to identify a suitable replacement when they see it.

Again, Joe Nathan and Rafael Soriano were available in back-to-back off-seasons. They are both proven, effective, and cheaper, on shorter contracts.

Nathan would have been a massive risk. He missed the entire 2010 season with an injury. He missed over a month in 2011 with an injury and compiled an era of 4.84 and the worst k/9 number (8.7) of his career. He signed for $7 million a year in the offseason between 2011 and 2012.

Please tell me you weren't advocating that the Sox sign a 37-year old pitcher coming off two major injuries and a season where he put up the worst numbers of his career to a $7 million a year contract to be the team's closer in 2012-13.

[a700hitter]

As far as I recall (I grant that my memory could be faulty here), Papelbon didn't even give the Sox a chance to match Philly's offer. It seemed like he wanted out pretty bad.

But whatever, what's done is done. Paps is long gone and he's not coming back here (I don't think anyway). The starting pitching imploded in September of 2011, the entire team basically sucked in 2012, and we have what we have. There is a very nice potential solution for this in-house in Tazawa. Hopefully Bailey comes back soon and is healthy the rest of the way, but I have confidence in Tazawa to get the job done.When your current employer doesn't contact you in the period when they have exclusive negotiating right before the FA period begins, that speaks volumes. Did the Sox ever indicate that they wished to make an offer or match an offer? No. Some times common sense has to take over. I am not going to suspend logic and make believe that he hated Boston for unspecified reasons. Parking can be a bitch:lol:, but he probably had that covered. If he had moved closer to home or been a Philly native, I could see some logic, but those aren't the facts. The Sox expressed no interest in him and he took the first good offer that he got.

Even if all of this make believe stuff that Paps wanted out Boston were true, money has been known to change players minds. Manny hated Boston, never wanted to come here and always wanted to leave, but he was here for 7 1/2 years. It's almost always about the money.

[Orange Juiced]

When your current employer doesn't contact you in the period when they have exclusive negotiating right before the FA period begins, that speaks volumes. Did the Sox ever indicate that they wished to make an offer or match an offer? No. Some times common sense has to take over. I am not going to suspend logic and make believe that he hated Boston for unspecified reasons. Parking can be a bitch:lol:, but he probably had that covered. If he had moved closer to home or been a Philly native, I could see some logic, but those aren't the facts. The Sox expressed no interest in him and he took the first good offer that he got.

Even if all of this make believe stuff that Paps wanted out Boston were true, money has been known to change players minds. Manny hated Boston, never wanted to come here and always wanted to leave, but he was here for 7 1/2 years. It's almost always about the money.

Good points. So ok, though, I'm curious. How much would you have been willing to sign Paps for?

[a700hitter]

As I said, several times he said that our great FO didn't even showed interest in his services, so he had to consider other options. Plain and simple.And why would he tell Philly to wait on their offer when he knew the Sox had no interest. It was a great contract, and he was smart not to let the ink dry on it. The Phillies had a big offer out to Ryan Madson and they withdrew it when they went after Papelbon. There was no upside in asking the Sox to match. He knew the answer. Ben was quoted in the paper saying that if Papelbon got a great offer and signed elsewhere, he would understand. Seems like a strong signal.

[italstallianion]

I think we might get a better return on our investment with Hanrahan on the DL than if he were back pitching for us. Oh well, there have been many worse wastes of money in baseball.

[a700hitter]

Good points. So ok, though, I'm curious. How much would you have been willing to sign Paps for?They didn'thave the budget to sign him, because they mismanaged their payroll horribly paying big bucks to useless slugs. No one is arguing that they could have signed him. The budget mess that they created was a reality. I think he is earning his money in Philadelphia.

[iortiz]

This is the problem you (and many others) have with player evaluation. What he DID is not what's important. What's important is what a player's projected TO DO over the life of a contract.

I couldn't care less about the past. All they need is an effective closer. It's that simple.

You look at the facts, then make a diagnosis and try to put a solution and preview the future. It's called prudence.

When I see Pap's history (facts) all indicates that he would have succeeded the next 4 years as closer since he signed. You could make a case comparing him with others. My point all this time is that there's no closer who you can compare with him since there's nobody who can match his numbers, so you just can't make an accurate case, and the only one who can match him is making what Pap is making right now and still succeeding. Why not to think that he is in that highway? why?

[Orange Juiced]

They didn'thave the budget to sign him, because they mismanaged their payroll horribly paying big bucks to useless slugs. No one is arguing that they could have signed him. The budget mess that they created was a reality. I think he is earning his money in Philadelphia.

Oh ok. So they couldn't have signed him. Well then, maybe that's why they didn't TRY to sign him.

He certainly is earning his money. Dude has been great his whole career. Top-shelf closer by any measure.

But oh well. We're crying over spilled milk here. Just see what can be done *now* to fix the problem. Looks like Hanrahan isn't the solution. Maybe (MAYBE!) a healthy Bailey is. I think Tazawa could be the answer, but as you pointed out, the proof is in the pudding.

[User Name?]

You look at the facts, then make a diagnosis and try to put a solution and preview the future. It's called prudence.

When I see Pap's history (facts) all indicates that he would have succeeded the next 4 years as closer since he signed. You could make a case comparing him with others. My point all this time is that there's no closer who you can compare with him since there's nobody who can match his numbers, so you just can't make an accurate case, and the only one who can match him is making what Pap is making right now and still succeeding. Why not to think that he is in that highway? why?

You don't need to compare him with other closers. What you need is a competent closer who can perform at a high level without a long-term, super expensive commitment because those carry an amount of risk that no team, and especially the Sox, should be willing to take. Again, we're not reinventing the wheel here.

[italstallianion]

Maybe something is being lost in translation. You two should switch to Spanish. It'd be like Telemundo.

[User Name?]

Bitch, you just jealous of my spanish-speaking swagger.

[mvp 78]

Maybe something is being lost in translation. You two should switch to Spanish. It'd be like Telemundo.

Talk Sox Gigante!

[iortiz]

You don't need to compare him with other closers. What you need is a competent closer who can perform at a high level without a long-term, super expensive commitment because those carry an amount of risk that no team, and especially the Sox, should be willing to take. Again, we're not reinventing the wheel here.

So your solution is keep on in experimental mode until you find the one while taxing you money, prospects, careers, wins, etc?

It was easier. You had to keep the one who had proved succeed, we're not reinventing the wheel here.

Anyway, what is done is done. Hopefully all these experiments end up in a happy ending some day.

[iortiz]

Maybe something is being lost in translation. You two should switch to Spanish. It'd be like Telemundo.

Podemos debatir en espa?ol si quieres jajaja

[User Name?]

So your solution is keep on in experimental mode until you find the one while taxing you money, prospects, careers, wins, etc?

It was easier. You had to keep the one who had proved succeed, we're not reinventing the wheel here.

Anyway, what is done is done. Hopefully all these experiments end up in a happy ending some day.

What is experimental mode? There were clear choices they could have gone for. That is the key to the argument. They could have signed Nathan and be done with it. Could have signed Soriano and be done with it. Both could have adequately replaced Papelbon for a fraction of the money. No experimentation there.

[iortiz]

What is experimental mode? There were clear choices they could have gone for. That is the key to the argument. They could have signed Nathan and be done with it. Could have signed Soriano and be done with it. Both could have adequately replaced Papelbon for a fraction of the money. No experimentation there.

While I like those names, still they would have been experiments. Jenks, Bailey and Hanrahan on paper were good options at time. Look what happened/is happening.

[a700hitter]

Oh ok. So they couldn't have signed him. Well then, maybe that's why they didn't TRY to sign him.

No one is saying otherwise. It is pretty well accepted that they couldn't sign him because of their massive budgetry mismanagement. No one is crying over spilled milk. I still reminisce about Yaz playing LF and Rice hitting huge HRs and Dewey throwing peas to 3rd. When the great players leave, all you have left is memories and comparisons to their successors. Papelbon was a great Red Sox player. He will not soon be forgotten.

[User Name?]

While I like those names, still they would have been experiments. Jenks, Bailey and Hanrahan on paper were good options at time. Look what happened/is happening.

No they would not have been. Bailey/Hanrahan were experiments. Let's be realistic here. And Bailey still has the chance of working out if he can hold up over the rest of the season.

An experiment is an unknown quantity, Nathan/Soriano are capable closers.

[Orange Juiced]

No they would not have been. Bailey/Hanrahan were experiments. Let's be realistic here. And Bailey still has the chance of working out if he can hold up over the rest of the season.

An experiment is an unknown quantity, Nathan/Soriano are capable closers.

Again, Nathan was a massive risk at the time. Soriano would have been, in all likelihood, a good signing. But he got, what, $10 million from the Yankees? If 700 is right, the Sox simply didn't have the money to sign Papelbon, so they probably couldn't have afforded Soriano either.

So neither of those guys were realistic options.

[User Name?]

Again, Nathan was a massive risk at the time. Soriano would have been, in all likelihood, a good signing. But he got, what, $10 million from the Yankees? If 700 is right, the Sox simply didn't have the money to sign Papelbon, so they probably couldn't have afforded Soriano either.

So neither of those guys were realistic options.

Soriano opted out of his contract and was a free agent before this season.They had just purged all of the big contracts and shelled 7 million PLUS players for Hanrahan. Why couldn't they have afforded Soriano again?

And Nathan had proven he was healthy after TJ, which is a procedure guys go through all the time these days. There's really no excuse.

[Orange Juiced]

Soriano opted out of his contract and was a free agent before this season.They had just purged all of the big contracts and shelled 7 million PLUS players for Hanrahan. Why couldn't they have afforded Soriano again?

And Nathan had proven he was healthy after TJ, which is a procedure guys go through all the time these days. There's really no excuse.

I thought you were referring to Soriano after he was TB's closer. My bad. I think he would have been a good get, but the reason he opted out of his Yankee contract was because he was expecting HUGE dollars. The Sox weren't going to go there, that's for sure.

As for Nathan, I'll just repost what I said a little while ago here (http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/17323-hanrahans-injury-6.html#post838818):

Nathan would have been a massive risk. He missed the entire 2010 season with an injury. He missed over a month in 2011 with an injury and compiled an era of 4.84 and the worst k/9 number (8.7) of his career. He signed for $7 million a year in the offseason between 2011 and 2012.

Please tell me you weren't advocating that the Sox sign a 37-year old pitcher coming off two major injuries and a season where he put up the worst numbers of his career to a $7 million a year contract to be the team's closer in 2012-13.

[User Name?]

Believe it or not, i was. He was coming off TJ surgery, which typically has players coming back throwing harder and with similar effectiveness to what they exhibited before the surgery.

There's usually an adjustment period after TJ, as seen with many other pitchers who return from said surgery. The Rangers thought he'd get back to the level he was prior to the surgery, and they were right.

[Orange Juiced]

Believe it or not, i was. He was coming off TJ surgery, which typically has players coming back throwing harder and with similar effectiveness to what they exhibited before the surgery.

There's usually an adjustment period after TJ, as seen with many other pitchers who return from said surgery. The Rangers thought he'd get back to the level he was prior to the surgery, and they were right.

Well it turned out to be a good gamble. But it was an expensive and risky move nonetheless. Remember, Nathan didn't just have to "adjust" after TJ surgery... He missed a month in the middle of 2011 due to injury. So that made two years in a row that he missed significant time from injury. At his age (37) that made him a big, big risk.

Sometimes gambles pay off. Other times (Bailey, Hanrahan), they don't. It happens.

[User Name?]

Well it turned out to be a good gamble. But it was an expensive and risky move nonetheless. Remember, Nathan didn't just have to "adjust" after TJ surgery... He missed a month in the middle of 2011 due to injury. So that made two years in a row that he missed significant time from injury. At his age (37) that made him a big, big risk.

Sometimes gambles pay off. Other times (Bailey, Hanrahan), they don't. It happens.

By "adjustment" i mean that his numbers suffered initially. And iirc, the injury he suffered in 2011 was something regarding theTJ itself.

[iortiz]

No they would not have been. Bailey/Hanrahan were experiments. Let's be realistic here. And Bailey still has the chance of working out if he can hold up over the rest of the season.

An experiment is an unknown quantity, Nathan/Soriano are capable closers.

A hand of allstars are not in the same wagon (Soriano, Nathan)? C'mon man.

Aceves was an experiment. Bard was an experiment. Padilla was an experiment. And Tazawa will be an experiment.

[iortiz]

All of them are/were/will/would have been experiments. All.

[Dojji]

No they would not have been. Bailey/Hanrahan were experiments.

No they were not. Both players were mid to low cost proven closers who were brought in because they had a track record of success in the closer's role in other divisions.

Exactly the kind of guy you want us to keep bringing in.

In the aftermath when they fail it's easy to dismiss these guys as not really up to the task, but that's not fair to them and it's not a truthful reflection of the real situation. The real situation is that it's danged hard to close in the AL East. letting someone who'd proven he could get it done on a consistent basis, walk to Philly, has NOT helped us, a team that prides itself on its ability to win consistently, to win consistently.

[iortiz]

No they were not. Both players were mid to low cost proven closers who were brought in because they had a track record of success in the closer's role in other divisions.

Exactly the kind of guy you want us to keep bringing in.

In the aftermath when they fail it's easy to dismiss these guys as not really up to the task, but that's not fair to them and it's not a truthful reflection of the real situation. The real situation is that it's danged hard to close in the AL East. letting someone who'd proven he could get it done on a consistent basis, walk to Philly, has NOT helped us, a team that prides itself on its ability to win consistently, to win consistently.
Exactly. You put it in a better way than me :lol:

[Dojji]

The pity of it is there's nothing to do BUT keep bringing in these retreads, if we're being realistic. That die is cast. My idea, Kenley Jansen, is almost certanily LAD's closer of the future and unavailable for blood or money, so we'll keep leaking prospects and paying three people borderline closer money until we wise up, get lucky, or both.

[mvp 78]

All of them are/were/will/would have been experiments. All.

Napoli at 1st - experiment
Ross as backup - experiment
Vic in RF - experiment
Dempster at SP - experiment
Uehara - experiment

This game is fun!

[Orange Juiced]

No they were not. Both players were mid to low cost proven closers who were brought in because they had a track record of success in the closer's role in other divisions.

Exactly the kind of guy you want us to keep bringing in.

This is exactly right. Hanrahan was a "proven" closer. Bailey was a "proven" closer. There was no more reason, really, to think that a 37-year old Joe Nathan, who missed major time in two straight seasons and who posted the worst numbers in his career, was any better of a bet than Bailey or Hanrahan. None.

[italstallianion]

I feel like threads like these exemplify that it's really hard to win as a GM because fans will come at you sideways regardless of what decisions you do or don't make.

[a700hitter]

I feel like threads like these exemplify that it's really hard to win as a GM because fans will come at you sideways regardless of what decisions you do or don't make.I get what you are saying, but I look at it differently. The GM's and FO don't play the games. I don't cheer for them, because they are not on the field. They are not the performers. They like managers will be second guessed and dissected, but that comes with the territory. I wouldn't feel sorry for them. They have pretty sweet jobs and I doubt that they read message boards.

[Dojji]

Napoli at 1st - experiment

Absolutely. An experiment worth trying but definitely an experiment.


Ross as backup - experiment
Vic in RF - experiment
Dempster at SP - experiment
Uehara - experiment

This game is fun!

Hard to call a player with multiple years experience at the position you're trying him at, an experiment.

Other than Maybe Uehara, I don't see your point. Especially since besides Uehara you're trying to compare relief to everyday starters, which is dubious to begin with.

[Thunder]

I feel like threads like these exemplify that it's really hard to win as a GM because fans will come at you sideways regardless of what decisions you do or don't make.

You can't prevent injuries, they just happen. If a player a GM signs gets hurt and misses his potential, that's not necessarily the GM's fault.

[italstallianion]

Not to mention what players do in other places that they just didn't do here.

[mvp 78]

Absolutely. An experiment worth trying but definitely an experiment.

Hard to call a player with multiple years experience at the position you're trying him at, an experiment.

Other than Maybe Uehara, I don't see your point. Especially since besides Uehara you're trying to compare relief to everyday starters, which is dubious to begin with.

Whoosh

[User Name?]

All of them are/were/will/would have been experiments. All.

I don't quite think you understand that Papelbon is good, but not one-of-a-kind. I get it, you like him, but come on.

[User Name?]

No they were not. Both players were mid to low cost proven closers who were brought in because they had a track record of success in the closer's role in other divisions.

Exactly the kind of guy you want us to keep bringing in.

In the aftermath when they fail it's easy to dismiss these guys as not really up to the task, but that's not fair to them and it's not a truthful reflection of the real situation. The real situation is that it's danged hard to close in the AL East. letting someone who'd proven he could get it done on a consistent basis, walk to Philly, has NOT helped us, a team that prides itself on its ability to win consistently, to win consistently.

Hanrahan had one good year as a closer, Bailey had hit the DL twice every year since his rookie year. Your point is dead wrong.

[User Name?]

Exactly. You put it in a better way than me :lol:

He's wrong, and so are you.

By your definition of "experiment", Papelbon to the Phillies was also an experiment. I want you to think about that for a second.

[Orange Juiced]

Hanrahan had one good year as a closer, Bailey had hit the DL twice every year since his rookie year. Your point is dead wrong.

Hanrahan had TWO good years as a closer, 2011 and 2012.

Rafael Soriano, who you cite as a "proven closer" (TM), had two and a half good years as a closer. I'm hoping you're not suggesting that that extra half year makes your case for you.

And as I've already explained, Nathan came with serious risks. That he's worked out doesn't change the fact that, at the time, they were still major risks.

[User Name?]

Hanrahan had TWO good years as a closer, 2011 and 2012.

Rafael Soriano, who you cite as a "proven closer" (TM), had two and a half good years as a closer. I'm hoping you're not suggesting that that extra half year makes our case for you.

And as I've already explained, Nathan came with serious risks. That he's worked out doesn't change the fact that, at the time, they were still major risks.

Remember that Soriano also had several good years as an elite setup man BEFORE becoming a closer, and Hanrahan got rocked the second half of last year, walking everyone.

The problem here is that every relief pitcher is a major risk. Remember BJ Ryan? He had a very good pedigree, signed a huge FA contract, and bombed. Remember Brad Lidge? K-Rod? Francisco Cordero?

All of those guys had good track records and succumbed to injuries/ineffectiveness throughout the life of their contracts.

That is why giving that contract to Papelbon was riskier than any other move the Red Sox could have pulled off during that off-season. People with no foresight refuse to see it that way, but Papelbon is just another pitcher who could get injured at any time like any other.

For the record, so far this season Papelbon has exhibited the lowest fastball velocity (92.2) and K rate (5.54 K/9) of his career. Let's see how that contract looks next year.

Nathan, had he bombed, would have been gone after the season, just like Hanrahan and Bailey will be if they don't get their shit together. Soriano would've probably signed a two-year deal had the Sox been aggressive, so he wouldn't have been a long-term commitment either.

[iortiz]

I don't quite think you understand that Papelbon is good, but not one-of-a-kind. I get it, you like him, but come on.

Well, then show me a closer with his track record, no named Mo.

I'm waiting.

[iortiz]

He's wrong, and so are you.

By your definition of "experiment", Papelbon to the Phillies was also an experiment. I want you to think about that for a second.

No, you are the one who is wrong here.

Yup, Pap was an experiment for them, but is working out. They made a case and thought that he worth that contract. They haven't been wrong thus far.

On the other hand we keep making experiments while taxing us collateral damage.

[iortiz]

Napoli at 1st - experiment
Ross as backup - experiment
Vic in RF - experiment
Dempster at SP - experiment
Uehara - experiment

This game is fun!

Not sure what is your point, but yeah, this game is fun.

[User Name?]

No, you are the one who is wrong here.

Yup, Pap was an experiment for them, but is working out. They made a case and thought that he worth that contract. They haven't been wrong thus far.

On the other hand we keep making experiments while taxing us collateral damage.

You just admitted to being wrong, then said i was the one who was wrong. My head may just explode.

[User Name?]

Well, then show me a closer with his track record, no named Mo.

I'm waiting.

A track record is not a definitive indicator of future performance in baseball. Age, injury risk and projections are all important as well. This line of thinking is the reason people keep lending Donald Trump money. ;)

[mvp 78]

Not sure what is your point, but yeah, this game is fun.

To you, every single move is an experiment. By extension, the Sox signing s long term contract with a closer would be an experiment.

[iortiz]

You can't prevent injuries, they just happen. If a player a GM signs gets hurt and misses his potential, that's not necessarily the GM's fault.

Problem is that our great FO love to put tons of money in wounded old fat horses and invent the cold water with their experiments instead of keeping the solid durable proved players.

This is Pap case.

[iortiz]

To you, every single move is an experiment. By extension, the Sox signing s long term contract with a closer would be an experiment.

You are taking this out of context.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Well, then show me a closer with his track record, no named Mo.

Heath Bell: 2007-2011 - 134 saves, 2.53 era
Jose Valverde: 07-11 - 191 saves, 2.91 era
Francisco Cordero 07-11 - 194 saves, 2.97 era
Joakim Soria 07-10 - 132 saves, 2.01 era

Papelbon 07-11 - 184 saves, 2.40 era

Heath Bell 2012: 19 saves, 5.09 era
Jose Valverde 2012: 35 saves, 3.78 era
Francisco Cordero 2012: 2 saves, 7.55 era
Joakim Soria 2011: 28 saves, 4.03 era

All of these pitchers had solid track records of success reaching 4-5 years back with very solid ERA's and saves. And they all completely blew up a year later.

Relief pitchers, especially closers, are a complete crapshoot.

[User Name?]

To you, every single move is an experiment. By extension, the Sox signing s long term contract with a closer would be an experiment.

Thank you

[User Name?]

Heath Bell: 2007-2011 - 134 saves, 2.53 era
Jose Valverde: 07-11 - 191 saves, 2.91 era
Francisco Cordero 07-11 - 194 saves, 2.97 era
Joakim Soria 07-10 - 132 saves, 2.01 era

Papelbon 07-11 - 184 saves, 2.40 era

Heath Bell 2012: 19 saves, 5.09 era
Jose Valverde 2012: 35 saves, 3.78 era
Francisco Cordero 2012: 2 saves, 7.55 era
Joakim Soria 2011: 28 saves, 4.03 era

All of these pitchers had solid track records of success reaching 4-5 years back with very solid ERA's and saves. And they all completely blew up a year later.

Relief pitchers, especially closers, are a complete crapshoot.

Damn you. I was just doing this.

[iortiz]

You just admitted to being wrong, then said i was the one who was wrong. My head may just explode.

admitted being wrong? on what? :lol:

your head is going to explode? as I said earlier, take a pill ;)

[SoxFanForsyth]

Damn you. I was just doing this.

:lol: sorry man. I couldn't leave it alone. And those were just names off the top of my head. I didn't even mention (ear muffs) Bobby Jenks, who had good success from 06-10, and we all know how that ended.

[User Name?]

admitted being wrong? on what? :lol:

your head is going to explode? as I said earlier, take a pill ;)

First off, what does "take a pill" even mean?

Second off, the main point of contention between us is your insistence that Papelbon is a sure thing. We've discussed this over and over and over. By admitting that Papelbon's contract is an "experiment" for the Phillies, you are admitting to the inherent risk and possible failure of the contract, therefore invalidating your earlier arguments.

[iortiz]

Heath Bell: 2007-2011 - 134 saves, 2.53 era
Jose Valverde: 07-11 - 191 saves, 2.91 era
Francisco Cordero 07-11 - 194 saves, 2.97 era
Joakim Soria 07-10 - 132 saves, 2.01 era

Papelbon 07-11 - 184 saves, 2.40 era

Heath Bell 2012: 19 saves, 5.09 era
Jose Valverde 2012: 35 saves, 3.78 era
Francisco Cordero 2012: 2 saves, 7.55 era
Joakim Soria 2011: 28 saves, 4.03 era

All of these pitchers had solid track records of success reaching 4-5 years back with very solid ERA's and saves. And they all completely blew up a year later.

Relief pitchers, especially closers, are a complete crapshoot.

This is whata Im talking about.

None of them has Pap's record. None. As I said, Pap is driving in other highway.

[iortiz]

First off, what does "take a pill" even mean?

Second off, the main point of contention between us is your insistence that Papelbon is a sure thing. We've discussed this over and over and over. By admitting that Papelbon's contract is an "experiment" for the Phillies, you are admitting to the inherent risk and possible failure of the contract, therefore invalidating your earlier arguments.

1. Means that it could help u if your head is about to explode. :lol:

2. Nothing is for sure in this life but given the facts he would have been the best bet.

[User Name?]

:lol: sorry man. I couldn't leave it alone. And those were just names off the top of my head. I didn't even mention (ear muffs) Bobby Jenks, who had good success from 06-10, and we all know how that ended.

Brad Lidge 2004-2008: 2.92 ERA, 163 saves

Francisco Rodriguez 2004-2008: 2.23 ERA, 206 SV

Francisco Cordero 2003-2007: 3.03 ERA, 167 SV

[User Name?]

1. Means that it could help u if your head is about to explode. :lol

It's a figure of speech i use meaning that a person is presenting two arguments that contradict each other. Your (or anyone's for that matter) posts on a baseball website have no impact on my physical well being.


2. Nothing is for sure in this life but given the facts he would have been the best bet.

This is a far cry from your earlier stance, and the correctness of the statement is still circumstancial.

[User Name?]

This is whata Im talking about.

None of them has Pap's record. None. As I said, Pap is driving in other highway.

Not sure if serious......

[iortiz]

Not sure if serious......

What are 2012-2013 Pap's numbers?

[iortiz]

Pap still a beast.

[User Name?]

What are 2012-2013 Pap's numbers?

What ForSyth was trying to say is that Papelbon could very easily still explode during the life of his contract. Francisco Cordero was good for a part of his contract, so was K-Rod, and Brad Lidge.

His 2013 numbers are pretty, but his peripherals are declining. Wait and see.

[iortiz]

It's a figure of speech i use meaning that a person is presenting two arguments that contradict each other. Your (or anyone's for that matter) posts on a baseball website have no impact on my physical well being.



This is a far cry from your earlier stance, and the correctness of the statement is still circumstancial.

1. well, just saying... just in case. :lol:

2. When I said that other no named Papelbon would have been an experiment is because Pap was already proved here... the others?, well, no, because haven't had that role here...hence would have been experiments/gambles/bets/risks or whatever you want to call it . No rocket science here. Not sure where's the problem.

[iortiz]

What ForSyth was trying to say is that Papelbon could very easily still explode during the life of his contract. Francisco Cordero was good for a part of his contract, so was K-Rod, and Brad Lidge.

His 2013 numbers are pretty, but his peripherals are declining. Wait and see.

Thing is, he has been terrific. Period. He is not the another "reliever". He's out of that bulk.

Numbers are there. He has been durable. He is still young. He'll be fine or better than when he was here.

[SoxFanForsyth]

1. well, just saying... just in case. :lol:

2. When I said that other no named Papelbon would have been an experiment is because Pap was already proved here... the others?, well, no, because haven't had that role here...hence would have been experiments/gambles/bets/risks or whatever you wan it to call it . No rocket science here. Not sure where's the problem.

See: Keith Foulke

[iortiz]

See: Keith Foulke

Not sure why.

The comparison is not even fair.

[User Name?]

Thing is, he has been terrific. Period. He is not the another "reliever". He's out of that bulk.

Numbers are there. He has been durable. He is still young. He'll be fine or better than when he was here.

This here is the problem:

You don't know this, and history suggests that you are more than likely wrong. Track records don't mean anything when injury strikes or a pitcher loses effectiveness. Papelbon can, like any other pitcher, get injured. This is what's not rocket science and you just don't seem to understand.

[iortiz]

This here is the problem:

You don't know this, and history suggests that you are more than likely wrong. Track records don't mean anything when injury strikes or a pitcher loses effectiveness. Papelbon can, like any other pitcher, get injured. This is what's not rocket science and you just don't seem to understand.

You are a mass of contradictions. You said that you don't need comparisons. SFF put a list and now you approve it. Of course you need to take references in order to make a case. Problem in his case, nobody match him today no named Mo. I already rest my case. You refuse to see the point and the facts. You just can't accept that he could have a great career. You say that he will injure some how. There's no single clue under his belt in order to think that. You said that he just started a decline. That's a dead wrong. Numbers do not lie. Check them out.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

.
Lol I'd love to see you try to run a baseball franchise. It'd probably make last year's Red Sox look like a modest failure by comparison.

[italstallianion]

Yeah but we'd sell a ridiculous amount of merchandise in Mexico.

[a700hitter]

You are a mass of contradictions. You said that you don't need comparisons. SFF put a list and now you approve it. Of course you need to take references in order to make a case. Problem in his case, nobody match him today no named Mo. I already rest my case. You refuse to see the point and the facts. You just can't accept that he could have a great career. You say that he will injure some how. There's no single clue under his belt in order to think that. You said that he just started a decline. That's a dead wrong. Numbers do not lie. Check them out.Papelbon is as steady as they come and he hasn't had any arm or injury issues since 2006; At the rate of 60 innings a year, it will take a long time to wear out a big boy like Papelbon. Look how long Big Lee Smith lasted.

[redsoxbeatz]

L - O - L @ H A N R A H A N

what a joKe

[User Name?]

You are a mass of contradictions. You said that you don't need comparisons. SFF put a list and now you approve it. Of course you need to take references in order to make a case. Problem in his case, nobody match him today no named Mo. I already rest my case. You refuse to see the point and the facts. You just can't accept that he could have a great career. You say that he will injure some how. There's no single clue under his belt in order to think that. You said that he just started a decline. That's a dead wrong. Numbers do not lie. Check them out.

iortiz, i don't quite think you understand what i meant. Let me explain:

1)When i said i didn't need to compare Papelbon to other closers, i meant in terms of what the Sox needed after he left. Which is a point that stands all by itself. What Papelbon did before is not necessarily a surefire indicator of what he will do from here on out. This is undisputable. The basis of this point (and the argument) is that Papelbon isn't irreplaceable.

2) However, you kept harping on the point that there is essentially no precedent of a guy with Papelbon's pedigree, SFF made that list which clearly shows you several closers with similar numbers who bombed after they were given large FA contracts. This is also a stand-alone point that is used to counter a clearly incorrect notion that you keep spouting, and even after SFF presented that list that clearly contradicts your point with valid stats, you still don't get it.

Notice how these are two stand-alone points. There are no contradictions.

[redsoxbeatz]

6 pitches = 3 outs? What?????? Wow... Lester!

So, 27 x 3 = Game. 81 pitches boyboy

[User Name?]

Wrong thread there buddy

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Papelbon is as steady as they come and he hasn't had any arm or injury issues since 2006; At the rate of 60 innings a year, it will take a long time to wear out a big boy like Papelbon. Look how long Big Lee Smith lasted.
Yeah, just look how well 'big boys' like Bell, Cordero, and Valverde are holding up despite their size. They're all bigger than Papelbon by the way.

[User Name?]

Yeah, just look how well 'big boys' like Bell, Cordero, and Valverde are holding up despite their size. They're all bigger than Papelbon by the way.

Bj Ryan wasa pretty big boy too.

[iortiz]

Papelbon is as steady as they come and he hasn't had any arm or injury issues since 2006; At the rate of 60 innings a year, it will take a long time to wear out a big boy like Papelbon. Look how long Big Lee Smith lasted.

Some people will never understand this.

In the meantime lets see if Tazawa is the solution.

[iortiz]

Lol I'd love to see you try to run a baseball franchise. It'd probably make last year's Red Sox look like a modest failure by comparison.

Surly I wouldn't put the 2012 Red Sox numbers. The bar is so low right now. :lol:

[a700hitter]

Yeah, just look how well 'big boys' like Bell, Cordero, and Valverde are holding up despite their size. They're all bigger than Papelbon by the way.You are free to disagree, and my statement was a broad generalization. Nevertheless, none of the pitchers that you mentioned belong in Papelbon's category. Bell never had a season with more than 2 saves until he was age 31. By that time Paps had 262 Saves. Also, by big, I didn't mean fat. Paps is 6'4". Bell is only 6'3". Similarly, Valverde's first big season was at age 29, but that big boy has been pretty durable if not consistent. Francisco Cordero had his first big season at age 28 and he never was Papelbon's equal. He stayed pretty consistent through age 36, so he too is durable. Two of these 3 guys you brought up support my statement that it is hard to wear out the these big boys at the rate of 60 innings a year. It should be pretty easy to come up with a few exceptions to such a broad general statement, but you whiffed on all three like a bad Salty plate appearance.

[iortiz]

You are free to disagree, and my statement was a broad generalization. Nevertheless, none of the pitchers that you mentioned belong in Papelbon's category. Bell never had a season with more than 2 saves until he was age 31. By that time Paps had 262 Saves. Also, by big, I didn't mean fat. Paps is 6'4". Bell is only 6'3". Similarly, Valverde's first big season was at age 29, but that big boy has been pretty durable if not consistent. Francisco Cordero had his first big season at age 28 and he never was Papelbon's equal. He stayed pretty consistent through age 36, so he too is durable. Two of these 3 guys you brought up support my statement that it is hard to wear out the these big boys at the rate of 60 innings a year. It should be pretty easy to come up with a few exceptions to such a broad general statement, but you whiffed on all three like a bad Salty plate appearance.

:lol:

[Thunder]

Yeah, just look how well 'big boys' like Bell, Cordero, and Valverde are holding up despite their size. They're all bigger than Papelbon by the way.

Bell has 4 saves in 5 chances with a 4.11 ERA
Valverde is competing with young guns in the Tigers' pen and didn't start the year as closer.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You are free to disagree, and my statement was a broad generalization. Nevertheless, none of the pitchers that you mentioned belong in Papelbon's category. Bell never had a season with more than 2 saves until he was age 31. By that time Paps had 262 Saves.
Yeah, so?


Also, by big, I didn't mean fat. Paps is 6'4". Bell is only 6'3".
Yeah, so?

Similarly, Valverde's first big season was at age 29, but that big boy has been pretty durable if not consistent.[/quote]
Talking out of your ass.


Francisco Cordero had his first big season at age 28 and he never was Papelbon's equal. He stayed pretty consistent through age 36, so he too is durable. Two of these 3 guys you brought up support my statement that it is hard to wear out the these big boys at the rate of 60 innings a year.
No they don't. Troll. :lol:


It should be pretty easy to come up with a few exceptions to such a broad general statement, but you whiffed on all three like a bad Salty plate appearance.
Kind of like you whiffed on your barb (as usual)?

[a700hitter]

Yeah, so?


Yeah, so?

Similarly, Valverde's first big season was at age 29, but that big boy has been pretty durable if not consistent.
Talking out of your ass.


No they don't. Troll. :lol:


Kind of like you whiffed on your barb (as usual)?You are free to disagree out of your ass as usual.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hanrahan is out for the yr. needless to say, this was a horrendous pickup

[italstallianion]

More of a waste of money than anything else. I consider Holt/Dejesus to be a wash, Pimentel was completely useless, and Melancon had his chance here and blew it, so while he's doing well in Pittsburgh I find it highly unlikely that Melancon would have the same numbers here.

It does piss me off when players suck/get injured and we still have to pay them for the whole contract but we aren't on the hook for that much.

I consider the $7M to be an inflation adjusted version of the $5M contracts we typically waste on people like John Smoltz and Brad Penny.

Edit: Still not sure how to feel about Sands though, that might be something to keep an eye on. Also I don't think we could have reasonably predicted the injury so I can't really blame the GM that much.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have a feeling Hanrahan ends up signing a contingent MiLB deal with the Yankees next yr in hopes of succeeding Rivera. Just call it a hunch

[a700hitter]

I have a feeling Hanrahan ends up signing a contingent MiLB deal with the Yankees next yr in hopes of succeeding Rivera. Just call it a hunchNostradamus

[italstallianion]

And then he uses whatever substances the current NY corpses are using and wins the Cy Young as a reliever.

[Thunder]

I have a feeling Hanrahan ends up signing a contingent MiLB deal with the Yankees next yr in hopes of succeeding Rivera. Just call it a hunch

Good one.

[a700hitter]

A good article analyzing the cost of replacing Papelbon:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2013/05/the_rising_cost.html

[Bellhorn04]

I think there's a reasonable chance the Phillies could be looking to trade Papelbon.

[iortiz]

A good article analyzing the cost of replacing Papelbon:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2013/05/the_rising_cost.html

Pretty much a resume of what we have been saying. Letting Papelbon walk has brought us tons of collateral damages.

[Station 13]

They knew what they were getting in Baily, a 'big' if he can stay off the DL. Everybody saw this coming. Now he is on another DL stint. I would not trust him any longer to fill the role for the long term.

[SoxSport]

They knew what they were getting in Baily, a 'big' if he can stay off the DL. Everybody saw this coming. Now he is on another DL stint. I would not trust him any longer to fill the role for the long term.

yeah. He's an injury freak. There are a number of those in baseball, and you should avoid them. They got rid of Lawrie because of that, and now they have another. Cherington made the deal under duress--he was told to hold the line on spending, so he thought himself very clever to move cheap Bard to starter and trade for cheap Bailey. The rest is history. Bailey stubs his thumb, and misses almost the whole season. So next year, he goes out and gets Hanrahan, figuring two closers is better than one. Except now he's paying big bucks for two guys, where previously he had cheap Bard (when he was good) and Pap for about the same total bucks. And Hanrahan is probably done as a Red Sox. And Bailey remains iffy with arm problems.

I think the killer was moving Bard to starter. That took him off the board as closer, and it backfired completely. Cherington resisted the manager who wanted Bard in the BP, and you know what happened.

Moving Bard to starter triggered these two moves for Bailey and Hanrahan. It was a disaster.

[redsoxfan3]

They knew what they were getting in Baily, a 'big' if he can stay off the DL. Everybody saw this coming. Now he is on another DL stint. I would not trust him any longer to fill the role for the long term.

The good news is that Bailey may not be gone for too much longer. He is supposed to start throwing off the mound within the next couple days. The bad news is that he always seems to find a way to get on the DL. We really need to count on Bailey to stay healthy. I think Tazawa does not have enough experience in the pressure filled closing role, so we do not really know what to expect from him. Yesterday, he wasn't even in for a closing situation and gave up the game winning home run.

I do agree with you about not trusting him to fill the role for the long-term. I hope I am wrong and that he can get back from this DL stint and have a solid year. Also, Morales is not too far away from coming back as well.

[SoxSport]

Yesterday was a classic Red Sox mishandling of pitching. Taking a quality starter out after just 101 pitchers in a tie game. You wouldn't expect that from Farrell, who has done an excellent job reviving Lester and Buchholz this year. But lately he has fallen into the trap of overworking the bullpen--especially Tazawa and Uehara. Pitching those two guys in Texas down 8-1 and even 5-1 the next night was a mistake--he did not have them when he needed them in closer games the next few. And the one inning per appearance bit is a killer--guaranteed burnout. Too many BP heatups. Tazawa is already showing signs of being overpitched.

The solution is to keep those starter pitchcounts at 110-120 pitches in quality starts. Get the extra inning out of them. And have long relievers ready to take over when a starter doesn't have it on a given day. get him out before the game is lost. Long relievers are a lost art in baseball. Used to be reserved for starters coming off the DL and young guys trying to crack the rotation.

Yesterday, Bumgarner went 112 pitches and Darvish 117 pitches in wins. Buchholz goes 101 pitches and Red Sox lose on the pitcher change. That says it all.

[italstallianion]

While I do agree that they are generally overworked, especially the two Japanese pitchers, Tazawa had last been used on Wednesday. Dempster, Lackey, Lester, and Buchholz had done a good job recently of eating innings. They have to keep it up and hope that some relievers come back strong so it's not just Uehara/Tazawa that are reliable.

And if we can find a 5th starter that can get some outs without walking the ballpark, then our bullpen should be in good shape going forward, especially with Morales coming back.

[mvp 78]

Pretty much a resume of what we have been saying. Letting Papelbon walk has brought us tons of collateral damages.

I think you mean synopsis?

[a700hitter]

They are treating Bailey with kid gloves. I think they are on pins and needles about him staying healthy. He hasn't even thrown off a mound yet. He has been tossing on flat ground and moving back 20 feet each session. They want to get him to 150 feet before the get him up on a mound. It could be a while before he is back closing. We should have quite a few late inning horror shows before he is back. IMO, they should look to get a healthy closer. If Bailey returns, he would be a nice set up guy. If not, they still have Uehara and Tazawa for the 8th.

[iortiz]

I think you mean synopsis?

Exactly.

Resume is like curriculum right? My bad :lol:

[mvp 78]

Resume is like curriculum right?

No.

[Behindenemylines]

Bad formula working here. Sox trade for closer, closer gets hurt and is out for the year. Happened last year with Bailey and now Hanrahan. We went from too many closers to none. Not good. We are only as good as our pitching.

[User Name?]

Hanrahan had bone spurs removed today, and they ended up having to do TJS on him as well, like many expected.

[dupree]

Any ideas on if the Sox will go out and get one more arm for the pen?

To my knowledge Brian Wilson is still out there... if hes anywhere close to healthy i would hope Cherrington will go after him.

[RedSoxNC84]

One word describes this whole scenario: LOL

[RedSoxNC84]

Something else funny about this. Melancon was terrible here, he goes to Pittsburgh and is just killing it over there. We get Hanrahan and he basically gets killed.

[jung]

Sounds like it is just another example of the dif between pitching in the AL and pitching in the NL

[User Name?]

Something else funny about this. Melancon was terrible here, he goes to Pittsburgh and is just killing it over there. We get Hanrahan and he basically gets killed.

Hanrahan was injured though, as evidenced by the fact that he had not one, but two procedures on his elbow. Maaaaaaaay have had something to do with it.

[RedSoxNC84]

Hanrahan was injured though, as evidenced by the fact that he had not one, but two procedures on his elbow. Maaaaaaaay have had something to do with it.

Yeah I understand that, just a funny point.

Also, Joel Hanrahan is the 2013 Bobby Jenks.

[Thunder]

Yeah I understand that, just a funny point.

Also, Joel Hanrahan is the 2013 Bobby Jenks.

Definitely. Same build.
What concerns me though is that he'll just end up being another waste of money like the guys the Sox cleared out to the Dodgers.

[RedSoxNC84]

Definitely. Same build.
What concerns me though is that he'll just end up being another waste of money like the guys the Sox cleared out to the Dodgers.

Shit happens I guess... Let's just hope the BP holds up.

[Thunder]

Shit happens I guess... Let's just hope the BP holds up.

Yeah, that's the key.

[italstallianion]

I wish we could make Hanrahan pay back the prorated part of his contract (minus the medical costs for his injury) so we can use that either to take on salary via trade or to pay the salary increase a replacement would get to come up from AAA to the MLB. It's one thing to suck, but it's another thing to suck and not play. Complete waste of $7M.

[BSN07]

Definitely. Same build.
What concerns me though is that he'll just end up being another waste of money like the guys the Sox cleared out to the Dodgers.

He's not even comparable to those guys. He only makes 7M and he's a free agent after the season. Yes it hurts the Sox he's not healthy and producing. But he's replaceable and it's not like he's making 20% of the payroll or something.

[BSN07]

I wish we could make Hanrahan pay back the prorated part of his contract (minus the medical costs for his injury) so we can use that either to take on salary via trade or to pay the salary increase a replacement would get to come up from AAA to the MLB. It's one thing to suck, but it's another thing to suck and not play. Complete waste of $7M.

The LT for this season shouldn't be an issue anymore. I believed that is tallied in April or early May. Regardless if the team decides it needs some players to round off the team come July, I don't think a few million for a RP or what not is going to scare them off imo.

[a700hitter]

At least we didn't have Hanrahan under contract for 2 years like we did with that fat pig Jenks. I was at Jenks last game. It was at Yankee stadium. He got winded during his warmup tosses. I don't remember if the fat load even througfh any pitches.

[Behindenemylines]

Something else funny about this. Melancon was terrible here, he goes to Pittsburgh and is just killing it over there. We get Hanrahan and he basically gets killed.

Thats the difference of pitching in the National League compared to the AL East.