Lester on the block

[Designated Hater]

Time to go friend.

Your story was a good one while you were fighting and beating cancer, but from a baseball standpoint, you have not fulfilled your potential. You came close in 2009/2010, but went backwards the last couple years. And it also seems that you are easily swayed into partaking in activities that are detrimental to your teams well-being.

Ship him to KC and get this thing moving for 2013 already.

[MANNYHOF24]

I think this would be a mistake. He is still only 28, had a few down years (2011 wasn't bad by any means). The Red Sox will always be able to buy offense, I don't agree with unloading your potential best arm with the team so starved for pitching. I fully expect Lester to work his ass off this winter and have a rebound year.

[jopete19]

Well put... I think the Sox hired JF to better our pitchers. Don't get rid of Lester. He still has good innings left in him.

[rjortiz]

Lester for Myers is more than fair value for us. Sign Grienke as a replacement, and you've upgraded two areas of need.

[Bellhorn04]

Interesting rumor, I'll be checking MLBTR as always but I'm not holding my breath on this one coming to reality.

[onlybereaved]

I think this would be a mistake. He is still only 28, had a few down years (2011 wasn't bad by any means). The Red Sox will always be able to buy offense, I don't agree with unloading your potential best arm with the team so starved for pitching. I fully expect Lester to work his ass off this winter and have a rebound year.

Agreed/Backed. My vote would go to keeping Lester.

[Lord Snow]

Lester is not on the block.

The Red Sox only have 2/5ths of the rotation filled with quality arms. Do you really think they're looking to make it 1/5th?

While the deal would be attractive to a team with 5 or 6 good options for the rotation the Sox simply cannot afford to part with Lester or Buchholz this offseason. No way.

[Lucienbel]

I think this would be a mistake. He is still only 28, had a few down years (2011 wasn't bad by any means). The Red Sox will always be able to buy offense, I don't agree with unloading your potential best arm with the team so starved for pitching. I fully expect Lester to work his ass off this winter and have a rebound year.

I'm also going to agree. Way too soon to give up on him, and I see him still having some good years left in the future.

[wetcamelfood]

I was ready to trade him for Johan Santana then I heard Farrell say he would be a 15 game winner and thought he was nuts but he was right, he was great when Farrell was here. No coincidence to me that he sucked the minute Farrell left so now that he's back I say keep him too. Fair enough if Les still sucks later but for now no trade. I guess my only concern is if our pitchers run to Farrell for advice if they don't like what they hear from whoever is going to be the pitching coach now then he'll think "why am I here if they're going to ask Farrell everything" but whatever that's their problem to figure out I guess.

[Lord Snow]

I was ready to trade him for Johan Santana then I heard Farrell say he would be a 15 game winner and thought he was nuts but he was right, he was great when Farrell was here. No coincidence to me that he sucked the minute Farrell left so now that he's back I say keep him too. Fair enough if Les still sucks later but for now no trade. I guess my only concern is if our pitchers run to Farrell for advice if they don't like what they hear from whoever is going to be the pitching coach now then he'll think "why am I here if they're going to ask Farrell everything" but whatever that's their problem to figure out I guess.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for the Red Sox to go out and maybe trade for Johan Santana this off-season. The Mets would probably welcome the opportunity to get rid of his contract (he's owed $31M through 2013; $25.5M in 2013 + $25M club option with $5.5M buyout for 2014).

Santana pitched well during the first half of 2012 but an ankle injury and a back injury destroyed his second half and ultimately ended his season early. I'm encouraged by the fact that his arm is okay. The Sox have the money to spend and Santana threw 103 innings before the ASB with a 3.24 ERA. I'd like that kind of production on the Sox.

Complete fringe trade idea, but I'd be happy with it.

[a700hitter]

It wouldn't be a bad idea for the Red Sox to go out and maybe trade for Johan Santana this off-season. The Mets would probably welcome the opportunity to get rid of his contract (he's owed $31M through 2013; $25.5M in 2013 + $25M club option with $5.5M buyout for 2014).

Santana pitched well during the first half of 2012 but an ankle injury and a back injury destroyed his second half and ultimately ended his season early. I'm encouraged by the fact that his arm is okay. The Sox have the money to spend and Santana threw 103 innings before the ASB with a 3.24 ERA. I'd like that kind of production on the Sox.

Complete fringe trade idea, but I'd be happy with it.It's worth looking into since he brings only a 2 year commitment. Is Cherries creative enough to consider this?

[SeanJohn93]

Santana is owed too much money and has been an injury concern ever since joining the mets. No way do I want him and his lucrative contract on the sox and give up significant prospects for him

[a700hitter]

Santana is owed too much money and has been an injury concern ever since joining the mets. No way do I want him and his lucrative contract on the sox and give up significant prospects for himI wouldn't consider giving up significant prospects in a salary dump.

[Orange Juiced]

I'm also going to agree. Way too soon to give up on him, and I see him still having some good years left in the future.

I would definitely consider trading him for Myers, and I wouldn't consider it "giving up on" Lester. I would consider it for two reasons:

(1) that they would have an opportunity to trade him for a major, major offensive prospect, and

(2) that there is more pitching available in the free agent market than there is good hitting. So they could go right back out and fill that pitching void easier than they could acquire a potential 35-40 home run bat that they'd have cost-controlled for years.

I think Lester is likely to have a good year this year; I'm not advocating giving up on him. I just think you could trade him for something really special and use your other resources (namely, money) to fill in the other holes.

[Emmz]

Lester is not on the block.

The Red Sox only have 2/5ths of the rotation filled with quality arms. Do you really think they're looking to make it 1/5th?

While the deal would be attractive to a team with 5 or 6 good options for the rotation the Sox simply cannot afford to part with Lester or Buchholz this offseason. No way.

Would you still consider Lester a quality starter, though? Everyone's making the assumption that Farrell is the reason for his successes, and lack thereof.

[Palodios]

Give him a real catcher, and watch him turn back to the real Lester. His decline and Salty's prominence are far too coincidental for my tastes.

[Behindenemylines]

Lester is a lefty, home grown, and still young with a lot of bullets left in his arm. I'm not moving him unless its in a package to Seattle for King Felix. We have been complaining that the Sox have no starting pitching and we are going to trade one of the few we have. Besides the name that the KC media brought up was Wil Myers. He is a corner outfielder with power and at best an average fielder. Not someone you trade a proven starting pitcher for.

[a700hitter]

Would you still consider Lester a quality starter, though? Everyone's making the assumption that Farrell is the reason for his successes, and lack thereof.I don't think pitching coaches play any significant role in a pitcher's success or failure at the major league level. I have met some pretty good pitchers over the years and not a single one attributes his success to his pitching coach. This is far from a scientific survey, but I get the feeling that their sentiments are pretty representative of pitchers as a whole. If Lester figures things out a returns to form, I don't think it will have much to do with Farrell.

[mvp 78]

If Lester figures things out a returns to form, I don't think it will have much to do with Farrell.

Especially since HE'S NOT THE PITCHING COACH.

[a700hitter]

Especially since HE'S NOT THE PITCHING COACH.Good point.

[Lord Snow]

Would you still consider Lester a quality starter, though? Everyone's making the assumption that Farrell is the reason for his successes, and lack thereof.

Yes. As a Sox fan I have to consider Lester a quality starter. The 2013 season is dependent on him regaining his 2008-2011 form. Age is on Lester's side which is a major positive.

He had a bad season. But so did the Red Sox. Lester didn't have much to pitch for. I thought the team as a whole gave up last year. Now, Lester is a professional and ideally should be pitching his heart out whether his team is 10 games above .500 or 10 games below but he is human. I'm willing to give him a mulligan if he goes out and gives us 220 innings next season like we all know he can.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lester's problem isnt physical, he lost his way last yr. It's easier to fix a mental issue rather than a physical loss of stuff. While I don't forsee a 20 win 220IP 3.10ERA season next yr, I think he starts progressing towards his natural ability

[SoxFanForsyth]

Especially since HE'S NOT THE PITCHING COACH.

Completely irrelevant. Just because Farrell isn't the pitching coach does not negate the history he has with Lester, or the fact that he is still a manager with a strong pitching background.

Not like he's going to just ignore the pitchers, and for a guy as monumental to the Red Sox success as Lester, he's going to do everything in his power to get him back on track, even if that means intruding on pitching coach duties.

The fact that he's not the pitching coach is completely meaningless. He's still going to get him back on track, or the Sox will be a bad team again.

[Emmz]

Yes. As a Sox fan I have to consider Lester a quality starter. The 2013 season is dependent on him regaining his 2008-2011 form. Age is on Lester's side which is a major positive.

He had a bad season. But so did the Red Sox. Lester didn't have much to pitch for. I thought the team as a whole gave up last year. Now, Lester is a professional and ideally should be pitching his heart out whether his team is 10 games above .500 or 10 games below but he is human. I'm willing to give him a mulligan if he goes out and gives us 220 innings next season like we all know he can.

your argument is based entirely off of assumption, the biggest one being that he will regain his prime form. What suggests he will regain form, when he's statistically trending downward?

the other two assumptions you're making are that Lester wasn't in the game mentally, and that the team's poor play is to blame for this. A lot has to go right for you to be right.

[Elktonnick]

Lester's problem isnt physical, he lost his way last yr. It's easier to fix a mental issue rather than a physical loss of stuff. While I don't forsee a 20 win 220IP 3.10ERA season next yr, I think he starts progressing towards his natural ability

Is it? As Yogi famously said " Ninety percent of this game is half mental". Then again just look at Daniel Bard. From what I ahve seen Lester's problem is not only mental but physical. His velocity was down. He may have lost a consistent fastball. Why? I don't know but he has lost confidence in that pitch and he over used his cutter which is being clobbered.

[SoxSport]

Somebody leaked this proposed deal, and it probably wasn't the Red Sox. It doesn't appear Lester is "on the block". Rather it looks like KC is looking for a starter and asked about Lester, dangling Myers as the bait.

There are two sides to looking at this proposed deal. One side says yes--Myers is the best hitting prospect in the minors right now, and Lester had an off year. Plus it opens a spot in the rotation for somebody else, and they can use Lester's salary elsewhere. The other side says it's crazy to weaken your weakest link when you should be strengthening it.

The question is which Lester will show up next year. Also, Myers looks like he needs a half year or more in AAA. They are in good financial position now to spend, so why not go after FAs instead of prospects they have enough of right now.

I still think they should go after Hamilton. He would energize the fanbase and fill the middle part of the lineup. I don't see that happening next year with Myers. Or maybe ever, as prospects go.

[Elktonnick]

Somebody leaked this proposed deal, and it probably wasn't the Red Sox. It doesn't appear Lester is "on the block". Rather it looks like KC is looking for a starter and asked about Lester, dangling Myers as the bait.

There are two sides to looking at this proposed deal. One side says yes--Myers is the best hitting prospect in the minors right now, and Lester had an off year. Plus it opens a spot in the rotation for somebody else, and they can use Lester's salary elsewhere. The other side says it's crazy to weaken your weakest link when you should be strengthening it.

The question is which Lester will show up next year. Also, Myers looks like he needs a half year or more in AAA. They are in good financial position now to spend, so why not go after FAs instead of prospects they have enough of right now.

I still think they should go after Hamilton. He would energize the fanbase and fill the middle part of the lineup. I don't see that happening next year with Myers. Or maybe ever, as prospects go.

They may "kick the tires" on Hamilton but I can't see it happening for alot of reasons. Some club will give Hamilton more than five years and I can't see Boston doing that. If they were then they haven't learned anything from the FA signings that got them in this pickle in the first place.

[mvp 78]

Completely irrelevant. Just because Farrell isn't the pitching coach does not negate the history he has with Lester, or the fact that he is still a manager with a strong pitching background.

Not like he's going to just ignore the pitchers, and for a guy as monumental to the Red Sox success as Lester, he's going to do everything in his power to get him back on track, even if that means intruding on pitching coach duties.

The fact that he's not the pitching coach is completely meaningless. He's still going to get him back on track, or the Sox will be a bad team again.

It's relevant as his duties with the rest of the team and FO will cause him to spend far less time with the SP's.

[Lord Snow]

I'm getting a vibe that the big money isn't out there for free agents this off-season.

I understand it's still before winter meetings, but there hasn't even been rumors of offers for any of the top free agents which makes me think that Josh Hamilton's 7-year $175M contract isn't happening, nor is Zack Greinke's 6-year $160M contract (or whatever his camp is trying to sling). I haven't boo on Anibal Sanchez either.

[jung]

Apparently the Sox and KC were in general discussions the past few days. Everybody's name gets mentioned in those discussions cause both sides are trying to figure out which players there might at least be some movement on and which would be "a hard no".

I don't even know why somebody thinks this sort of stuff is even worth a leak. The mediots are always looking to get their columns over the crease though.

[seabeachfred]

Yes. As a Sox fan I have to consider Lester a quality starter. The 2013 season is dependent on him regaining his 2008-2011 form. Age is on Lester's side which is a major positive.

He had a bad season. But so did the Red Sox. Lester didn't have much to pitch for. I thought the team as a whole gave up last year. Now, Lester is a professional and ideally should be pitching his heart out whether his team is 10 games above .500 or 10 games below but he is human. I'm willing to give him a mulligan if he goes out and gives us 220 innings next season like we all know he can.

Lord Snow----Lester started falling apart the second half of the 2011 season and then compounded his misdemeanor with a gigantic felony with this beer and chicken escapade while he acted liked a worthless follower and flunky. You would have thought he would try and rectify things with a solid 2012 season but as we all know he stunk this past season, especially at Fenway Park. He also spent most of his starts complaining and bitching at the umpires. Now I'm hearing he might be coming back because he's only 28. If these past two seasons are of any indication much of Lester's problems are located between his ears.

We finished last with him so what the hell; if we could obtain a great RH power hitting prospect in Will Myers for him I would be glad to undergo a rebuilding job because Lester is both physically and mentally ill-equipped to be a No. 1 or a No. 2 starter for us. Maybe he will prove the doubters wrong but he would have to really make a reversal of this season to bring that off.

[Palodios]

Lord Snow----Lester started falling apart the second half of the 2011 season and then compounded his misdemeanor with a gigantic felony with this beer and chicken escapade while he acted liked a worthless follower and flunky. You would have thought he would try and rectify things with a solid 2012 season but as we all know he stunk this past season, especially at Fenway Park. He also spent most of his starts complaining and bitching at the umpires. Now I'm hearing he might be coming back because he's only 28.

In all fairness, he was nominated for the Clemente award for his cancer foundation. I felt the vibe that he was trying to distance himself from the rest of the pitching staff, and with the miscommunication from the coaches, and everything going on, he lost his pitch. In the last year, Tito, Tek, Wake, Beckett and a pile of others who provided him leadership left, and I think that he still needs to wake up and step into the role.

So many people have talked about the simple glitch in his throwing mechanics, now is the time for it to get fixed.

[a700hitter]

In all fairness, he was nominated for the Clemente award for his cancer foundation. I felt the vibe that he was trying to distance himself from the rest of the pitching staff, and with the miscommunication from the coaches, and everything going on, he lost his pitch. In the last year, Tito, Tek, Wake, Beckett and a pile of others who provided him leadership left, and I think that he still needs to wake up and step into the role.

So many people have talked about the simple glitch in his throwing mechanics, now is the time for it to get fixed.
Whenever I hear that pitching poorly could be a simple glitch in a delivery, I cringe. I have seen too many guys search for that glitch on the way to palooka-ville. I don't know if Lester is finished, but I hope the Sox make the right decision in this regard. As for a possible trade, I'd rather see Lester packaged with Ellsbury for King Felix.

[Lucienbel]

Whenever I hear that pitching poorly could be a simple glitch in a delivery, I cringe. I have seen too many guys search for that glitch on the way to palooka-ville. I don't know if Lester is finished, but I hope the Sox make the right decision in this regard. As for a possible trade, I'd rather see Lester packaged with Ellsbury for King Felix.

While I tend to agree that people can continuously try to find that fix in their mechanics and never actually find it, I think there is a valid argument in saying that Lester may have complications that can be fixed. I imagine that going through three pitching coaches, two managers, an established catcher, and all this team drama wouldn't really help anyone go out there and do their job the best they could. It is an individual performance, but it's tough to say that things going around you don't effect your individual performance some, in any aspect of life.

[iortiz]

Sorry but IMO Lester is done in Boston. He could bounce back with another team, say KC, but not in Boston uniform. At this point his value is not that much... So if somehow you can sell him high, do it.

[Bellhorn04]

In his final 12 starts last year Lester had a 3.76 ERA and threw 79 innings, over 6.5 per start. He's hardly a writeoff.

[mvp 78]

This trade has nothing to do with the chicken and beer nonsense. I don't think anyone in baseball ops cares about that at this point.

[a700hitter]

While I tend to agree that people can continuously try to find that fix in their mechanics and never actually find it, I think there is a valid argument in saying that Lester may have complications that can be fixed. I imagine that going through three pitching coaches, two managers, an established catcher, and all this team drama wouldn't really help anyone go out there and do their job the best they could. It is an individual performance, but it's tough to say that things going around you don't effect your individual performance some, in any aspect of life.I think you are giving him a bunch of excuses. If he could battle through cancer and succeed, he can shake of a managerial change and some pitching coach changes.

[a700hitter]

This trade has nothing to do with the chicken and beer nonsense. I don't think anyone in baseball ops cares about that at this point.That may be more than a year old, but Lester didn't do anything to move past it as he acted like a spoiled child for the entire 2012 year. His attitude was terrible. Attitude could be a big part of his problem. I am hoping that the problem was attitude and in his head. It's preferable to a physical injury or problem.

[Palodios]

I think you are giving him a bunch of excuses. If he could battle through cancer and succeed, he can shake of a managerial change and some pitching coach changes.

We see it happen all the time. Elite players move from one environment to another, and take some time to adjust. Crawford, Adam Dunn, Josh Beckett coming into Boston... we see it very very frequently.Losing Tek, Farrell, Tito, Wake, Beckett a pile of coaches and others changed what Boston meant to Jon Lester.

And as far as complaining about pitches... when your catcher can't frame pitches, you don't get the calls you once did.

[a700hitter]

We see it happen all the time. Elite players move from one environment to another, and take some time to adjust. Crawford, Adam Dunn, Josh Beckett coming into Boston... we see it very very frequently.Losing Tek, Farrell, Tito, Wake, Beckett a pile of coaches and others changed what Boston meant to Jon Lester.

And as far as complaining about pitches... when your catcher can't frame pitches, you don't get the calls you once did.I am hoping that the problem is just in his head. He's been in Boston since 2006 so he should be mentally tough enough to survive managerial and pitching coach changes. You make a good point about Salty. I think throwing to Salty may have hurt his game. The big goof just cannot give a good low target and everyone's pitches have been a little up. He needs to go. That could be one of the biggest improvements to the staff.

[Bellhorn04]

Lester's ERA throwing to Salty is 4.55.

[Elktonnick]

We see it happen all the time. Elite players move from one environment to another, and take some time to adjust. Crawford, Adam Dunn, Josh Beckett coming into Boston... we see it very very frequently.Losing Tek, Farrell, Tito, Wake, Beckett a pile of coaches and others changed what Boston meant to Jon Lester.

And as far as complaining about pitches... when your catcher can't frame pitches, you don't get the calls you once did.

While I think Lester's deteriorating performance results from factors other than the personnel changes, I think there is some merit to criticisms of Salty's lack of skill behind the plate having an adverse affect on all Sox pitching not just Lester. I think it is fair to presume, given the Sox signing of Ross and their interest in Napoli, the FO shares that concern. The Sox probably may not move Lester but I think it is probable that Salty will be dealt.

[a700hitter]

Sorry but IMO Lester is done in Boston. He could bounce back with another team, say KC, but not in Boston uniform. At this point his value is not that much... So if somehow you can sell him high, do it.You may be right. Hopefully, the FO has a good read on this one way or the other. As Branch Rickey used to say, it's better to trade a player one year too early than one year too late.

[User Name?]

In his final 12 starts last year Lester had a 3.76 ERA and threw 79 innings, over 6.5 per start. He's hardly a writeoff.

3.20 ERA with a 1.15 WHIP pitching away from Fenway last year. Fastball velocity is still there. There's a lot of evidence that helps conclude that the problem is all in his head.

[BSN07]

In the end I'm fine with keeping Lester. I'm not against trading him for a Myers type player.

In a perfect world I'd like to see them build a package around Lester for Felix. Seattle would get the home town guy at the front of their pitching staff plus high potential prospects. So they might be able to sell it to the fan base easier. It's not going to happen, just chewing my gums here.

[iortiz]

You may be right. Hopefully, the FO has a good read on this one way or the other. As Branch Rickey used to say, it's better to trade a player one year too early than one year too late.

Let's face it, he has shown a decline. It's funny how people split his numbers. Cherry Pickers. He was a 4.82 ERA pitcher last year, period. You do not have to be Einstein in order to know that he has had attitude/head problems since 2011, and unless they work with his mind, IMO he's cycled in Boston and needs to walk and find fresh air for his own good.

If they want to keep him, fine... But do not fool ourselves pretending that he is a #1 or # 2 these days. He is a # 3 at best until he shows the opposite. We need arms. Quality arms. Cherington/FO need to focus on that.

[Lord Snow]

What happened to the fans in Boston? They used to be loyal to their players.

Lester was a stud for 4 seasons, for the most part everyone loved him, then he has one bad year and everyone is ready to put him on the next flight out of town. It doesn't make sense. Players have bad years. Often they bounce back.

Same thing will Ellsbury, everyone hated him, then he was #2 in MVP voting and everyone loved him, then he got hurt, missed half the year, and came back to a sub-par performance and everyone wants him on the first flight out of town.

[User Name?]

Let's face it, he has shown a decline. It's funny how people split his numbers. Cherry Pickers. He was a 4.82 ERA pitcher last year, period. You do not have to be Einstein in order to know that he has had attitude/head problems since 2011, and unless they work with his mind, IMO he's cycled in Boston and needs to walk and find fresh air for his own good.

If they want to keep him, fine... But do not fool ourselves pretending that he is a #1 or # 2 these days. He is a # 3 at best until he shows the opposite. We need arms. Quality arms. Cherington/FO need to focus on that.

Do you actually know what "cherry picking" in this instance means? I don't think you do.

People look at splits because they are indicative of performance disparities. No one's trying to argue that he didn't suck last year, they (me included) are trying to explain why he sucked and if it's fixable. If it is then trading him away makes no sense with the poor state their pitching is already in.

[iortiz]

Do you actually know what "cherry picking" in this instance means? I don't think you do.

People look at splits because they are indicative of performance disparities. No one's trying to argue that he didn't suck last year, they (me included) are trying to explain why he sucked and if it's fixable. If it is then trading him away makes no sense with the poor state their pitching is already in.

You usually cherry pick and split numbers in order to justify the unjustifiable. Sorry, it's the way you are. Is still the pitching there? IDK. He has shown a decline, that is a fact. If you do not want to see that, is up to you. You split his numbers in order to prove that his pitching still there, hopefully still there... In the end...It's your opinion but nobody knows. Sorry but If he keeps posting high ERAs (hopefully no, if he stays), your splits will not have sense. He will suck, plain and simple.

I'm not concerned about Lester's future, If he stays fine, If he walks fine... I'm concern because our FO office has not done nothing in order to fix this team. Almost forget, we have to be patience, like last off-season.

[Bellhorn04]

Let's face it, he has shown a decline. It's funny how people split his numbers. Cherry Pickers. He was a 4.82 ERA pitcher last year, period. You do not have to be Einstein in order to know that he has had attitude/head problems since 2011, and unless they work with his mind, IMO he's cycled in Boston and needs to walk and find fresh air for his own good.

If they want to keep him, fine... But do not fool ourselves pretending that he is a #1 or # 2 these days. He is a # 3 at best until he shows the opposite. We need arms. Quality arms. Cherington/FO need to focus on that.

Come on, it's one bad season we're talking about. Lots of pitchers have bad seasons and rebound. I could cite lots of examples but it would bore the crap out of everyone.

[iortiz]

Come on, it's one bad season we're talking about. Lots of pitchers have bad seasons and rebound. I could cite lots of examples but it would bore the crap out of everyone.

Hopefully it's only one bad season if he stays.

[User Name?]

You usually cherry pick and split numbers in order to justify the unjustifiable. Sorry, it's the way you are. Is still the pitching there? IDK. He has shown a decline, that is a fact. If you do not want to see that, is up to you. You split his numbers in order to prove that his pitching still there, hopefully still there... In the end...It's your opinion but nobody knows. Sorry but If he keeps posting high ERAs (hopefully no, if he stays), your splits will not have sense. He will suck, plain and simple.

I'm not concerned about Lester's future, If he stays fine, If he walks fine... I'm concern because our FO office has not done nothing in order to fix this team. Almost forget, we have to be patience, like last off-season.

Cherry pick what? Justify what? You need to learn to comprehend what you read. Trying to find an explanation as to why he sucked is not the same as trying to justify that he didn't suck. Again, i don't think you know what "cherry picking" means applied to this instance.

I haven't even emitted a specific opinion on the subject. I theorized that it could be a mental problem, but where did i say i knew it was or how to fix it? Read my posts for what they are and not for what you think they are.

[SoxSport]

If they get Swisher and/or Ross or Hamilton, can't see them trading Lester for Myers.

[a700hitter]

Come on, it's one bad season we're talking about. Lots of pitchers have bad seasons and rebound. I could cite lots of examples but it would bore the crap out of everyone.He has been declining for two seasons. People forget that after 2011, Lester was talking about having a rebound season in 2012.

[jung]

I also seriously doubt Lester is on the block for one simple reason. Pitching is pretty costly to acquire at this point and the Sox already don't have enough. So how can the Sox justify to themselves giving up even more pitching when they have so far not even filled the holes they have?

It really does not matter if Lester is a 1 or not a 1 or a 3 or whatever. He has a decent track record. Yes he has been declining but he is not physically screwed up...at least as far as we know. He has the guy that he prospered with most as pitching coach coming back as manager. Every guy out there that the Sox can overpay for has some issue or another which makes them no better a bet than Lester and in many cases worse AND more costly. So what are we talking about here? Lets move Lester so we can bring in more Lesters or worse?

I don't even know how much faith I have in their ability to judge pitching. The Bailey move was a disaster, not because Riddick was such a gem of an everyday player but because Bailey represented nothing. Bailey was never going to be a solid closer for a contending team and if the Red Sox are not contending or working toward contending what are they doing? So why was Bailey ever going to be a better move than what 75% of MLB teams do to come up with a closer if in a pinch? Bailey will likely end up being yet another player that has his sorry ass moved for next to nothing and we have yet another example of the Sox losing both the player that they gave up, Riddick, and the player that they got, Bailey, and have nothing to show for it.

Lester might not get you the 220 innings that you would expect from a 1 but he will likely be good for at least 180+ innings. You have to hand one thing to the guy....he has been the most consistent innings eater the Sox have had even in his more troubling seasons. Scary that he has been the best the Sox have had but it is what it is.

[iortiz]

Cherry pick what? Justify what? You need to learn to comprehend what you read. Trying to find an explanation as to why he sucked is not the same as trying to justify that he didn't suck. Again, i don't think you know what "cherry picking" means applied to this instance.

I haven't even emitted a specific opinion on the subject. I theorized that it could be a mental problem, but where did i say i knew it was or how to fix it? Read my posts for what they are and not for what you think they are.

Yes. Cherry pick. You need to think twice what you want write if you feel pointed.

[User Name?]

Yes. Cherry pick. You need to think twice what you want write if you feel pointed.

Actually i don't, because i focus on comprehending both what i read and what i write. I suggest you try the same lest you resort to semi-illegible cop-outs like this one.

[iortiz]

Actually i don't, because i focus on comprehending both what i read and what i write. I suggest you try the same lest you resort to semi-illegible cop-outs like this one.

Zero cop-outs, it is true, straight up... do not cherry pick.

[User Name?]

What in the world are you talking about? You're making no goddamn sense. Again, do you know what cherry picking means?

[seabeachfred]

You usually cherry pick and split numbers in order to justify the unjustifiable. Sorry, it's the way you are. Is still the pitching there? IDK. He has shown a decline, that is a fact. If you do not want to see that, is up to you. You split his numbers in order to prove that his pitching still there, hopefully still there... In the end...It's your opinion but nobody knows. Sorry but If he keeps posting high ERAs (hopefully no, if he stays), your splits will not have sense. He will suck, plain and simple.

I'm not concerned about Lester's future, If he stays fine, If he walks fine... I'm concern because our FO office has not done nothing in order to fix this team. Almost forget, we have to be patience, like last off-season.

Patience is a nice virtue to have iortiz but to me what seems to be going on is nothing more than notorious procrastination, as if doing nothing won't get anyone in trouble. I have a pal here named Elktonnick and he really came up with a gem. He said it either here or on Sawxheads that given the choice of making a tough decision on a personnel matter or doing nothing, Cherington would rather do nothing. He has me convinced.

[Bellhorn04]

He has been declining for two seasons. People forget that after 2011, Lester was talking about having a rebound season in 2012.

Rebound from September/11 that is. On September 6/11 Lester had a 2.93 ERA. Then suddenly, he and the rest of the staff were mysteriously infected with the 'Cantpitchworthashit' virus, that still lingers.

[User Name?]

Patience is a nice virtue to have iortiz but to me what seems to be going on is nothing more than notorious procrastination, as if doing nothing won't get anyone in trouble. I have a pal here named Elktonnick and he really came up with a gem. He said it either here or on Sawxheads that given the choice of making a tough decision on a personnel matter or doing nothing, Cherington would rather do nothing. He has me convinced.

Which is a ridiculous thing to say because no one here knows Cherington personally. On the other hand, do we even know if he has any power?

[jung]

I certainly do not know this but I think there is a chance that the Sox upper management really does not have much confidence in Baseball Operations. If that is the case then they need to make a change. I am suggesting that if there is a logjam....a place down there at Fenway where there is maybe some degree of unwillingness to act it may well be above BC's pay grade. If in fact they have no confidence in Baseball Ops but won't make changes then BC is being left as a placeholder, indefinitely.

If I had to guess, my guess would be that the Sox will end up making one really big blockbuster deal this offseason....big enough to draw the attention and direct participation of of LL and JH and after that, a bunch of smaller deals that don't really amount to much but that allows the guys that have been languishing down on the farm a chance to play.

in part that is why I think Hamilton may really be on the radar screen. The Sox get Hamilton and wait for an opening to bring in a serious arm for the rotation while they wait for the guys like the B's etc to come up. In the meantime, Kalish, Iggy and Lavs get to play and the Sox get to really figure out what they have there. All leads to a major push in 2014 behind a combination of the B's coming up, the guys that work out this year, Hamilton and Ortiz holding down the middle of the order and an arm or two brought in between now and the start of the 2014 season.

[jung]

By the way by smaller deals I mean deals for guys that are trying to reestablish some value or have some degree of risk attached to them but that come without hefty price tags in years and maybe not even in dollars. I suspect that Hamilton comes in to draw crowds and solidify the middle of the order with Ortiz. But the real plan ends up pointing to 2014 when the Sox will:
- still have Ortiz have Hamilton
- the B's starting to arrive on the scene,
- the young guys playing this year that work out
- the guys they sifted through from these smaller deals finding the gems in them.

Somewhere along the way they add at least one really solid arm to the rotation I hope and bang they are rolling in 2014.

[Elktonnick]

I certainly do not know this but I think there is a chance that the Sox upper management really does not have much confidence in Baseball Operations. If that is the case then they need to make a change. I am suggesting that if there is a logjam....a place down there at Fenway where there is maybe some degree of unwillingness to act it may well be above BC's pay grade. If in fact they have no confidence in Baseball Ops but won't make changes then BC is being left as a placeholder, indefinitely.

If I had to guess, my guess would be that the Sox will end up making one really big blockbuster deal this offseason....big enough to draw the attention and direct participation of of LL and JH and after that, a bunch of smaller deals that don't really amount to much but that allows the guys that have been languishing down on the farm a chance to play.

in part that is why I think Hamilton may really be on the radar screen. The Sox get Hamilton and wait for an opening to bring in a serious arm for the rotation while they wait for the guys like the B's etc to come up. In the meantime, Kalish, Iggy and Lavs get to play and the Sox get to really figure out what they have there. All leads to a major push in 2014 behind a combination of the B's coming up, the guys that work out this year, Hamilton and Ortiz holding down the middle of the order and an arm or two brought in between now and the start of the 2014 season.

I cwertainly don't disagree with your analysis. One of the key factors which leads me to believe that Cherries is more a coordinator of baseball operations than a GM in the traditional mode are the published reports that JH wanted Bill James to play a larger role and reporting to ownership not to Cherrington. The second point is that JH and LL not only played the key roles in the A-Gon Beckett deal but also in the negotiations for Farrell as well. One wonders how much independence Cherrington has.

If you recall when Cherrington was originally promoted to his current position those who knew him well in the media characterized him as very deliberate overly so. That characterization has certainly been proven accurate by events since Epstein's departure. One has to conclude that's why he was promoted. His job is to propose but the big boys (JH and LL) actually make the decisions.

[Bellhorn04]

I cwertainly don't disagree with your analysis. One of the key factors which leads me to believe that Cherries is more a coordinator of baseball operations than a GM in the traditional mode are the published reports that JH wanted Bill James to play a larger role and reporting to ownership not to Cherrington. The second point is that JH and LL not only played the key roles in the A-Gon Beckett deal but also in the negotiations for Farrell as well. One wonders how much independence Cherrington has.

If you recall when Cherrington was originally promoted to his current position those who knew him well in the media characterized him as very deliberate overly so. That characterization has certainly been proven accurate by events since Epstein's departure. One has to conclude that's why he was promoted. His job is to propose but the big boys (JH and LL) actually make the decisions.

I find that plausible. I could see Cherington's role as sifting through all the information and putting forth proposals. It makes some sense knowing what we do about Lucchino's involvement, the Valentine hiring, the power struggle with Theo etc.

[Lord Snow]

Of course Cherington isn't going to have free reign. He is a second year GM with no track record of success. In fact 2012 turned out to be a very bad rookie campaign for him. Although he will get a mulligan from upper management because he cleaned out a lot of Theo's mess and essentially saved the near future of the club.

Adrian Gonzalez struggled mightily in 2012, and definitely didn't live up to the $22M/year he is getting paid. He wasn't a bad player but to me he just wasn't worth the money. I'm a firm believer that $20M+/year offensive players need to produce absolute minimums of .280/.360/.500 to be worth their contract last season Gonzalez didn't hit any of those totals, he did in 2011 but he produced well above his career averages as well which is largely unsustainable.

And Carl Crawford? He is overpaid by about $11M per year. At 7-years $70M he wouldn't have been a bad signing. But his contract is just ludicrous. It's the type of contract that handcuffs a team for the better part of a decade. Good riddance.

The pressure is definitely on Cherington. He has immense payroll flexibility and only one bad contract in John Lackey (2 if you count Jonny Gomes) who is manageable owed only $31M over the next 2 years.

[a700hitter]

The pressure is definitely on Cherington. He has immense payroll flexibility and only one bad contract in John Lackey (2 if you count Jonny Gomes) who is manageable owed only $31M over the next 2 years.I agree with your post, but there is the scary possibility that for reasons not known to us that they don't have a lot of payroll flexibility. There's probably a lot going on with the owner's finances- and some of it might not be very pretty.

[jung]

Well I hate to say it but it does make you wonder if they are waiting for the initial returns on ticket sales before deciding what to do next. While I always expect the Sox and any other team for that matter to care first about the top and bottom line, I could also be convinced that it goes so far this year to include, checking the early ticket sales and turning the money tap just as far as they think they need to go to make that ticket sale line move. Would be a shame if that is what is going on.

[Elktonnick]

Lucchino was interviewed on the D& C radio show this AM. He refused to either confirm or deny that the Red Sox were in discussions with the Royals about a Lester deal.

[BSN07]

Lucchino was interviewed on the D& C radio show this AM. He refused to either confirm or deny that the Red Sox were in discussions with the Royals about a Lester deal.

That means they have talked. If it was a BS report he would have called it that. He doesn't want to comment because it might happen or it might not happen. No reason to back yourself into a corner with a hard line answer. Still IMO it means they have had trade talks concerning him.

ex1 said he mentioned something about a COF acquisition coming soon. Could be the Myers deal?

[jung]

Well like I said before I will be really surprised if they give up on Lester with Farrell coming to town and so many holes to fill already in the rotation. That said how typical would it be for the Sox to trade pitching for a "potential" bat even when they are already starved for pitching.

Tom Yawkey walks back through the door every 5 minutes down there at Fenway. There is a thought that will probably send half the board running for their oxygen masks.

[Lord Snow]

Well I hate to say it but it does make you wonder if they are waiting for the initial returns on ticket sales before deciding what to do next. While I always expect the Sox and any other team for that matter to care first about the top and bottom line, I could also be convinced that it goes so far this year to include, checking the early ticket sales and turning the money tap just as far as they think they need to go to make that ticket sale line move. Would be a shame if that is what is going on.

I disagree. The money in the tv ratings just as much as the ticket sales, if not more. The Sox own NESN. If the team is bad, less people watch, and that is less money NESN can charge for advertising. The Red Sox will have a healthy payroll next season. I'm guessing it will be at least $150M, things just haven't taken shape yet.

[jung]

The TV ad rates for this year will be based on last year's numbers. So whatever that number is ...it is done for 2013. They will sell spots...it all boils down to who buys them and at what rate. If things are bad...plan on fewer Lexus ads and more Weed Whacker ads. But that is determined by the rate. Either Weed Whacker types can afford to advertise on Sox games or they can't. No slight to Weed Whacker or their parent. The spots will be filled though.

"yes folks do you wonder how that Fenway lawn always looks so manicured....the trusty Weed Whacker of course.":D:D

[a700hitter]

I disagree. The money in the tv ratings just as much as the ticket sales, if not more. The Sox own NESN. If the team is bad, less people watch, and that is less money NESN can charge for advertising. The Red Sox will have a healthy payroll next season. I'm guessing it will be at least $150M, things just haven't taken shape yet.

Doesn't the largest amount of revenue still come from ticket sales?

[BSN07]

Doesn't the largest amount of revenue still come from ticket sales?

In the case of the Red Sox I would think it does. I don't think that's the case for the LA teams now. It be interesting to know what they bring in per game on average for a season.

[jung]

I can't remember which it is with the Dodgers but I think they don't own their sport's TV network but have a huge contract with one that will bring them just monster $$'s. FSG does own NESN so the ad revenues are something they have a stake in. LA has their contract and they will get paid regardless of the Network's ad revenue. The Dodgers won't have to worry about that again until their contract is up for renewal.

[BSN07]

I can't remember which it is with the Dodgers but I think they don't own their sport's TV network but have a huge contract with one that will bring them just monster $$'s. FSG does own NESN so the ad revenues are something they have a stake in. LA has their contract and they will get paid regardless of the Network's ad revenue. The Dodgers won't have to worry about that again until their contract is up for renewal.

Fox is paying the Dodgers 200M a year. 3x what NESN brings the Red Sox. They are the new financial Juggernaut. First time in my baseball life that some team could outspend the Yankees.

[Lord Snow]

Fox is paying the Dodgers 200M a year. 3x what NESN brings the Red Sox. They are the new financial Juggernaut. First time in my baseball life that some team could outspend the Yankees.

All the same. There is big money in TV.

The Red Sox need to field a team that people will watch 162 days a year otherwise they'll see their profits go out the window.

[SoxSport]

All the same. There is big money in TV.

The Red Sox need to field a team that people will watch 162 days a year otherwise they'll see their profits go out the window.

And where do you think that big TV money comes from? It comes from our cable bills--about 50% of our cable bill goes to TV sports. regardless of whether you watch sports or not. That's the real crime--and one of the reasons why TV is swimming in money and the sports salaries keep going up. They just increase the cable bills to pay for it.

[Lucienbel]

Well like I said before I will be really surprised if they give up on Lester with Farrell coming to town and so many holes to fill already in the rotation. That said how typical would it be for the Sox to trade pitching for a "potential" bat even when they are already starved for pitching.

Tom Yawkey walks back through the door every 5 minutes down there at Fenway. There is a thought that will probably send half the board running for their oxygen masks.

I'd also be pretty surprised. It seems like a bonus to signing Farrell was the fact that he had worked well with the pitchers in the past. Granted, he's not in that capacity anymore, I'm sure there's still a large amount of interest in him helping and giving input that he can too.

[jung]

If the Sox were rich in pitching I could see Lester going for a bat but they are not. They are so NOT RICH in pitching that like I posted earlier I don't think it really matters whether Lester would be pegged as a 1 or a 2 or a 3. He eats innings...struggling or not he eats innings. He does not eat #1 rotation guy innings but he definitely eats rotation 2 innings. I think the Sox pen is on pretty thin ice considering how overused they have been two years running and right now chances are pretty good that they will be overused again this year. Once they get blown out more than lets say twice in a year, they are like a bicycle racer suffering oxygen death. All they can do is stop. We have already gotten some healthy doses of what happens then.

[Behindenemylines]

If the Sox were rich in pitching I could see Lester going for a bat but they are not. They are so NOT RICH in pitching that like I posted earlier I don't think it really matters whether Lester would be pegged as a 1 or a 2 or a 3. He eats innings...struggling or not he eats innings. He does not eat #1 rotation guy innings but he definitely eats rotation 2 innings. I think the Sox pen is on pretty thin ice considering how overused they have been two years running and right now chances are pretty good that they will be overused again this year. Once they get blown out more than lets say twice in a year, they are like a bicycle racer suffering oxygen death. All they can do is stop. We have already gotten some healthy doses of what happens then.

I agree that Lester is a guarentee innings eater for the Sox. If the Sox trade Lester then 2013 is a total bridge year, and a total rebuild with youth is underway. I can't see them trading from a weakness of SP and still be competitive in 2013. SP continues to be their biggest hole. Hopefully, BC starts to fill some of the holes next week in Nashville.

[RedSoxNC84]

All the same. There is big money in TV.

The Red Sox need to field a team that people will watch 162 days a year otherwise they'll see their profits go out the window.

Already counting them out of the postseason??

[Plumpamania]

Wil Myers for Lester should be a no brainer for us.

[jung]

I don't know that it is that easy to give up a 28 year old experienced, reasonably successful pitcher that admittedly has some work to do but is healthy for a guy that as yet has not had a ML at bat.

At Lester's age of 28 it is not IMO an easy decision to make even if the Sox are giving up on 2013. Make no mistake though....taking a prospect for Lester would make 2013 a bridge year in every sense of the word.

[Plumpamania]

It already is and Myers is as close to can't miss as you can't get w/o saying Trout or Harper.

[jung]

Not in "every sense of the word". There is not able to really compete for the division bridge year and at least remain competitive for a WC with an eye toward the immediate (as in 2014) bridge year. Giving up a 28 year old starting pitcher gives up on even a WC effort in 2013 and may even bring the plan for 2014 into question.

[Dojji]

It already is and Myers is as close to can't miss as you can't get w/o saying Trout or Harper.

Yeah but there's a difference between identifying that you have little chance, and giving yourself no chance at all.

[example1]

Not in "every sense of the word". There is not able to really compete for the division bridge year and at least remain competitive for a WC with an eye toward the immediate (as in 2014) bridge year. Giving up a 28 year old starting pitcher gives up on even a WC effort in 2013 and may even bring the plan for 2014 into question.

If they misjudge which of those bridge years it is they potentially set the organization back a number of years. Holding on to Lester so the team can be an 84-88 win team doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I think they can be better than that, but even then what does that get them?

Let's say, just for the hell of it, that Myers turns out to be.. I don't know, Ryan Braun. If the next Ryan Braun is available for a pitcher who has two years left on his contract and then becomes a FA, don't you have to take that deal? Wouldn't it be foolish to pass it up? Especially if, at the time the deal was available, you literally had no chance of being a contender anyway?

I don't know.... it is a tough call. I suppose I'm so eager for the next generation of talent to get to Boston that I'm willing to have them roll the dice on a guy who might be a centerpiece for the next 6+ years.

[jacksonianmarch]

e1, I am sure the concern for sox fans is if Myers turns into Jay Payton

[BSN07]

e1, I am sure the concern for sox fans is if Myers turns into Jay Payton

That's just a fact of dealing with prospects. They are near sure things. But there are no sure things. I think Myers for Lester is a bold move. Similar to the Pineda for Montero deal(Pineda being less proven, but controlled for longer). Sometimes you have to take a shot at getting that possible future middle of the order bat that could anchor your lineup for 5-6 years at least.

This could potentially be trading for Mike Stanton before he got to the MLB level. I'm willing to risk the chance he flames out for that.

[example1]

e1, I am sure the concern for sox fans is if Myers turns into Jay Payton

Sure. There's always a risk.

[jung]

They already don't really have any pitching. Who throws the ball for the next couple of years. Is Red Sox nation willing to see them bridge as cellar dwellers for maybe two more years?

Guys that have been life long fans are already indicating here that for the first time in years they are not buying tickets. I am not buying tickets. I suspect that they have to become competitive again before a guy that has not even seen AAA pitching is ready to come up and do something for the big club.

Did you see that quote from BC that 700 put up? Does that look like a team that is really trading Lester?

Lester is a pitcher. If he gets back to peak form, you don't think the Sox wouldn't just resign him?

[BSN07]

They already don't really have any pitching. Who throws the ball for the next couple of years. Is Red Sox nation willing to see them bridge as cellar dwellers for maybe two more years?

Guys that have been life long fans are already indicating here that for the first time in years they are not buying tickets. I am not buying tickets. I suspect that they have to become competitive again before a guy that has not even seen AAA pitching is ready to come up and do something for the big club.

Did you see that quote from BC that 700 put up? Does that look like a team that is really trading Lester?

Lester is a pitcher. If he gets back to peak form, you don't think the Sox wouldn't just resign him?

I don't think they are going to expect big ticket sales. That's why I expect the payroll is going to be closer to 100M then 200M. When Myers(if a trade happens), Barnes, De le Rosa , Bogaerts are ready to join the ML team, interest will pick back up and the payroll will rise again to supplement the young core.

Lester is no lock to sign another team friendly extension this off season. And I doubt if he pitches good this year he's going to bi-pass a shot at free agency that's only a season away. He will be 30 when his deal is up. And is he pitches decently the next two seasons he's getting CJ Wilson money minimum. If he pitches well, he cold be looking at CC, Hammels, Lee money.

Another thought it who's to say the can't trade him, then when he's a free agent bring him back? Trade for Myers and build with the youngsters the next two years. Then when they are ready for their push they could always go out and sign him on the open market. Something they may very well have to do anyways. Just a thought.

[example1]

They already don't really have any pitching. Who throws the ball for the next couple of years. Is Red Sox nation willing to see them bridge as cellar dwellers for maybe two more years?

Guys that have been life long fans are already indicating here that for the first time in years they are not buying tickets. I am not buying tickets. I suspect that they have to become competitive again before a guy that has not even seen AAA pitching is ready to come up and do something for the big club.

Did you see that quote from BC that 700 put up? Does that look like a team that is really trading Lester?

Lester is a pitcher. If he gets back to peak form, you don't think the Sox wouldn't just resign him?

You make good points. At the same time, this team existed for a long time without Jon Lester and would exist after he's gone. I'm not saying he's expendable, he's not. At the same time, if he puts up another season like 2012 does it really matter? They might as well sign Brandon McCarthy or someone else. The team won't be without pitching over the next few years, they will just need to find more. Also, the market of available pitchers (through trade, FA, etc.,) will change over time. It sucks right now.

Trading Lester would be a bold move and could either lead to great things or a bunch of mediocrity for awhile. I'd rather they do bold things right now when the relative risk is lower, but I understand completely people hesitating about them giving up a semi-sure thing (Lester) for an unknown quantity.

Mostly its the reports about Myers skillset that have me impressed. The kid just seems to be a tremendous hitter for his age, with highly advanced power. He's shown it across multiple levels.

I actually see a lot of parallels with the Dodgers Crawford-Gonzo trade. It is very, very rare that a team takes on that much salary and gives something in return. It was too good an offer to pass up. It is also pretty rare for a small-market team to be seeking established veterans in exchange for the minor league player of the year on the cusp of breaking through with the big club. Other teams won't be doing that next year or the year after--that's why the Sox have to consider it strongly.

[a700hitter]

Myers is also reported to be just barely an adequate fielder and he has no speed. He is a1 dimensional player.

[example1]

What are you basing that on a700? Who is reporting that he is 1 dimensional? I've seen average speed with good arm. For a player with no speed it is strange that the Royals would have started him in CF more than any other position the last two years, and that other sites would list him as having above average athleticism.

[a700hitter]

What are you basing that on a700? Who is reporting that he is 1 dimensional? I've seen average speed with good arm. For a player with no speed it is strange that the Royals would have started him in CF more than any other position the last two years, and that other sites would list him as having above average athleticism.
Maybe the report(s) that i am recollecting said average speed, but the report was that he was 1 dimensional, not a multi tool guy like Harper or Trout.

[User Name?]

John Sickels on Wil Myers:


With Bryce Harper and Mike Trout firmly established in the majors, the best outfield prospect in the minor leagues is now Wil Myers of the Kansas City Royals. He's tearing through the Pacific Coast League like a tornado on the prairie, devastating Triple-A competition for the Omaha Stormchasers.


Wil Myers was a high school catcher from High Point, North Carolina. Considered one of the best prep prospects available in the 2009 draft, he slipped to the third round due to large bonus demands and a University of South Carolina scholarship. The Royals met his demands, giving him a $2,000,000 bonus, equivalent to a mid first-round pick. Myers started his pro career by hitting .426/.488/.735 in 18 games for Idaho Falls in the Pioneer League.

Myers began 2010 with Burlington in the Low-A Midwest League, hitting .289/.409/.500 in 68 games, with 10 homers, 10 steals, 48 walks, and 55 strikeouts in 242 at-bats. Promoted at mid-season to High-A Wilmington, he hit .346/.453/.512 with 37 walks and 39 strikeouts in 205 at-bats. Keep in mind that both Burlington and Wilmington are difficult parks for hitters. The main negative was erratic defense behind the plate, but his bat looked tremendous.

The Royals dropped the catching idea at the beginning of 2011, moving him to the outfield. His season for Double-A Northwest Arkansas was disappointing: he hit just .254/.353/.393, although he maintained decent components with a 52/87 BB/K ratio in 354 at-bats. Poor health was a factor: he missed a month of the season with a knee injury, and even when on the field he didn't look quite right, not running as well as in the past and showing some problems with his swing.

Returning to Northwest Arkansas to begin 2012, Myers got off to a terrific start, hitting .343/.414/.731 in 35 games with 13 homers. Promoted to Triple-A Omaha last month, he's remained hot, hitting .333/.407/.719 in 26 games, with 11 walks and 20 strikeouts in 96 at-bats. Combined, he's hitting .339/.412/.726 on the season, with 17 doubles, 22 homers, 27 walks, and 62 strikeouts in 230 at-bats.

Myers is a 6-3, 205 pound right-handed hitter and thrower, born December 10, 1990. Although his speed is down a tick since high school and he's not going to steal a ton of bases, he runs well for a bigger player, well enough that the Royals have played him in center field this year. As befits a former catcher, he has a strong, right field quality throwing arm, although he's still working on the finer points of outfield play.

It is with the bat that Myers truly shines. Last summer he had difficulty with pitches inside, but adjustments to his batting stance closed up that hole. Having a healthy knee also helps, and Pacific Coast League observers report that pitchers haven't been able to find the key to getting Myers out consistently this year. He was very aggressive in the Texas League before his promotion, but has actually shown a better feel for contact in Triple-A. He works counts when necessary, but will jump on anything hittable, showing power to all fields. A few observers questioned his effort on the field last summer, but that hasn't been an issue this year. Again, the knee may have had something to do with that.

Myers has shown few weaknesses this year, although there are currently no clear openings on the major league roster. More Triple-A experience can't hurt him, but at some point, if the competition just isn't teaching him anything or challenging him, the pressure to promote him will increase.

I think Myers profiles better in the long run as a corner guy, but as Rob Neyer pointed out a few days ago, he's currently blocked by Jeff Francoeur and Alex Gordon.

In the short run, it boils down to this: will the Royals feel comfortable defensively with Myers in center field? As soon as the answer is yes, Myers will take his spot in the Royals lineup.

[jung]

OK so my sense of it from what I am reading from a bunch of baseball fans that care enough about the sport and a particular team to participate on a board like this is that there would be more tolerance to the Sox taking longing to come back to a competitive position.

I think were the rubber may well meet the road though is that when push comes to shove we are talking about THEIR revenue line....their bottom line....their incomes. At the end of the day the people that work in baseball are judged there, not by the number of flags flying over the place. Though surely there are parts of the organization that by function are more engaged and occupied by the winning of championships.

Having a Myers coming up maybe just a year after the B's get here or as they are getting here might well be appealing but the Sox with notable exception have few pitching prospects down there and for the foreseeable future it appears will have to supplement what pitching they have from outside the organization. This I suspect in an environment that more and more is beginning to remind me of the baseball I watched earlier in my life where pitching was even more dominant than folks who have been watching maybe since the 1980's have ever seen it. Certainly its getting more expensive.

The loss of more time before coming back to a competitive footing is on some level acceptable to me as well. But Sox Management can't sustain themselves on a level of acceptance that is below a threshold where I and others like me are willing to buy tickets and may even find things other than the Sox worthy of TV viewership.

Certainly offing Lester in the face of incredibly weak pitching as it exists right now says to me that regardless of what big everyday signing they might make including Hamilton that they will not have enough pitching to elevate themselves from 5th in the division....with the exception of 4th. A big everyday player signing may be enough to overcome the lose of a pitching asset by 2014 but certainly not by the coming season.

Or is it simply that Lester only has two years left on his contract and we don't think we will resign him even if we wanted to. Interesting cause how similar is that to Ells. Ells is an injury waiting to happen. He has not shown any signs of repeating his big break out season sooner or later. I sensed back when this was a hot topic that more people were in favor of keeping Ells regardless and would have been in favor of it even if some big everyday prospect for later years was being dangled.

My issue is that I think giving up on Lester is the equivalent of packing it in on the 2013 and the 2014 season and doing it so visibly that not only are the Sox going to have trouble with ticket sales and other revenue generators this year but next year. I am not convinced they are going to do that. Plus we now have BC telling us he thinks the best option for the Sox is the pitchers they have pitching to their potential, that there is no option that they can reach that would be better than that. Who do we think BC is talking about?

[Dojji]

Maybe the report(s) that i am recollecting said average speed, but the report was that he was 1 dimensional, not a multi tool guy like Harper or Trout.

I find myself not caring that much. This is not a speed team, if a guy can hit, and field his position OK, and he's playing on the corners, there's not a lot else that really matters.

[example1]

Maybe the report(s) that i am recollecting said average speed, but the report was that he was 1 dimensional, not a multi tool guy like Harper or Trout.

An interesting question about lingo arises. We often use the terms five-tool player and multi-dimensional. Is a player who hits for average, and power with a good arm one dimensional? Maybe...? But if to be multidimensional you have to be a five tool player then the universe of true multidimensionals is quite small. It doesn't take long to find examples of players whose skills in the five tools rank as mid-range to exceptional, who are extremely valuable. Hell, if the bat is good enough then being one dimensional doesn't matter all that much.

Overall, the point is overblown. The kid has the offensive potential of a first division, middle order bat at a very young age. When we are arguing in other places about Papelbon being worth 14m or about the necessity of bringing Ortiz back despite his inability to field or run at all, I suspect we would all be okay with a corner OF who put up a .940 OPS year after year, right?

[User Name?]

In the case of Myers, he also has outstanding plate discipline for his age.

[jung]

Looks like Myers can hit and throw. I don't think I saw anybody making a case for him as a 5 tool player. I still think it is funny to see the "Sox will find somebody to pitch" comments when it should be clear to all of us that pitching is going back to some form of the dominance it had in the 60's and early 70's.

If you want to get a look at baseball without all of the things baseball has done to pump up offense in the intervening years and most importantly without expansion you need to take a look at some of those numbers.

[User Name?]

But remember jung, that the Sox could get Myers then flip him in a package (or trade separately) with Ellsbury and some lower-end prospects for a couple of young pitchers who can help now and in the long term. That's what i would do, mostly because as you say, offense is really not that difficult to find in the FA market save for certain prohibitive positions.

[jung]

Now that would make some sense UN. I have to admit my confidence in the Sox ability to pull something like that off is not very great though.

That would be fine though. That would at least Parley Ells and Lester into something meaningful as their contracts come to a close.

[User Name?]

The main problem with the Sox FO IMO (and we've had this discussion before) is the overvaluing of their own assets. There are several prospects over the years (Lars Anderson comes to mind) who have been dubbed great trade chips but have been blocked by in the farm system and position yet the Sox stubbornly hold on to them. They do this even though they really don't have a clear-cut future plan for the prospect and trading them to improve a position of weakness would improve the club overall in the long-term.

That's not how elite baseball teams operate.

[a700hitter]

An interesting question about lingo arises. We often use the terms five-tool player and multi-dimensional. Is a player who hits for average, and power with a good arm one dimensional? Maybe...? But if to be multidimensional you have to be a five tool player then the universe of true multidimensionals is quite small. It doesn't take long to find examples of players whose skills in the five tools rank as mid-range to exceptional, who are extremely valuable. Hell, if the bat is good enough then being one dimensional doesn't matter all that much.

Overall, the point is overblown. The kid has the offensive potential of a first division, middle order bat at a very young age. When we are arguing in other places about Papelbon being worth 14m or about the necessity of bringing Ortiz back despite his inability to field or run at all, I suspect we would all be okay with a corner OF who put up a .940 OPS year after year, right?It doesn't matter whether he can throw the ball if he can' t catch it. His defense has been described as possibly not major league level. He is not a base stealer, so he is 1 dimensional insofar as he can only hit.

[jung]

Funny he would be the opposite of Ells who can catch it but can't throw it. But saying Myers cannot catch it at all would seem extreme. Clearly the way they describe his defense he is not going to chase down and catch balls in the outfield. I would prefer a guy that can chase it down catch it and throw it. Baring that give me somebody that can chase it down and catch it. What Myers appears to be would be my last choice, especially for CF. What the Royals accept in their CF would not be what I would want in ours. Then again the Sox will take a bat and live with lousy fielding almost all over the field.

[Plumpamania]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Ec1N1rzU8

[User Name?]

Funny he would be the opposite of Ells who can catch it but can't throw it. But saying Myers cannot catch it at all would seem extreme. Clearly the way they describe his defense he is not going to chase down and catch balls in the outfield. I would prefer a guy that can chase it down catch it and throw it. Baring that give me somebody that can chase it down and catch it. What Myers appears to be would be my last choice, especially for CF. What the Royals accept in their CF would not be what I would want in ours. Then again the Sox will take a bat and live with lousy fielding almost all over the field.

a700 is blowing smoke, as he tends to do. He was recently converted to the OF and he made enough strides there to play CF competently for a significant period of time. His defense is adequate right now, but with a ton of upside. That's the scout's takes, not mine.

[Plumpamania]

Wil Myers, mark my words, will be the next big thing along with Trout and Harper to be a generation of greatness, like Garciaparra, Jeter and Rodriguez did at shortstop in the late '90s.

[a700hitter]

Wil Myers, mark my words, will be the next big thing along with Trout and Harper to be a generation of greatness, like Garciaparra, Jeter and Rodriguez did at shortstop in the late '90s.If he is that good, KC will not trade him.

[Plumpamania]

They will because they are KC and have a set of elite hitters up. They want a pitcher but w/o dealing anyone on team friendly contracts. Their rotation is atrocious.

[BSN07]

I think people are underestimating Myers defense. He was a C two years ago. And has been able to hold his own in CF. Bryce Harper has done the same thing. Biggest difference there is Harper has a howitzer for an arm.

[a700hitter]

They will because they are KC and have a set of elite hitters up. They want a pitcher but w/o dealing anyone on team friendly contracts. Their rotation is atrocious.
None of their other "elite" hitters are as good as Jeter, Garciaparra, or ARod, so why would they trade a guy as good as them?

[BSN07]

None of their other "elite" hitters are as good as Jeter, Garciaparra, or ARod, so why would they trade a guy as good as them?

Because they are proven and on team friendly deals. Myers how ever great he may be is an unknown. And becomes more available then the others when the team searchers for a #1 SP so they can win now so to speak. KC is making a push now. And probably will have to sacrifice Myers to be able to keep the current core together. In a perfect world I'm sure KC would love to keep Myers.

[Plumpamania]

Because they are proven and on team friendly deals. Myers how ever great he may be is an unknown. And becomes more available then the others when the team searchers for a #1 SP so they can win now so to speak. KC is making a push now. And probably will have to sacrifice Myers to be able to keep the current core together. In a perfect world I'm sure KC would love to keep Myers.

WE HAVE A WINNAH!~

[a700hitter]

Because they are proven and on team friendly deals. Myers how ever great he may be is an unknown. And becomes more available then the others when the team searchers for a #1 SP so they can win now so to speak. KC is making a push now. And probably will have to sacrifice Myers to be able to keep the current core together. In a perfect world I'm sure KC would love to keep Myers.So then he is not the kind of prospect that Harper and Trount were.

[BSN07]

So then he is not the kind of prospect that Harper and Trount were.

Washington and LAA sent a lot of pieces for their #1's but held on to their best prospect. Those two teams can also supplement those losses (prospect wise) with $. Something KC can not do. They need to trade as few prospects as possible. And when looking for a #1 that means having to use a big chip. Which Myers is.

[a700hitter]

Washington and LAA sent a lot of pieces for their #1's but held on to their best prospect. Those two teams can also supplement those losses (prospect wise) with $. Something KC can not do. They need to trade as few prospects as possible. And when looking for a #1 that means having to use a big chip. Which Myers is.
If he's in the same league as the other 2 guys, they are not going to trade him, because the major flaw in your argument is that Lester is no #1.

[Plumpamania]

Trout and Harper were both unknowns until produced. Go back to Vulcan sir.

[Plumpamania]

If he's in the same league as the other 2 guys, they are not going to trade him, because the major flaw in your argument is that Lester is no #1.

Please advise on the 30 #1's in MLB today.

[a700hitter]

Trout and Harper were both unknowns until produced. Go back to Vulcan sir.
But they were can't miss prospects and those don' t get traded.

[a700hitter]

Please advise on the 30 #1's in MLB today.You are penciling in Lester as our #1?

[Plumpamania]

You are penciling in Lester as our #1?

As of right now yes. It's him or Clay. Neither of course is a true number one, but Lester would be far and away the BEST pitching in KC since Greinke.

[BSN07]

Please advise on the 30 #1's in MLB today.

And from that list, please state the ones that are available.

Fact of the matter is, there isn't any. Shields and Lester are about as close as it gets.

[BSN07]

You are penciling in Lester as our #1?

Right now he is the obvious choice. Lackey? No. Buchholz? Maybe. Doubront? hahaha you hate Doubront.

[a700hitter]

If Myers is close to being in the same league as Harper or Trout, KC would be insane to trade him for Lester who pitched to a 5 1/2 ERA. Without looking, he was probably the worst #1 in all of baseball. Many teams have better #2's, and no, I don't know which of them are available, and neither does anyone else. The Royals could sign Haren for about the same money as Lester will be making for the next 2 seasons without giving up such an elite talent.

[a700hitter]

Right now he is the obvious choice. Lackey? No. Buchholz? Maybe. Doubront? hahaha you hate Doubront.What makes you think I hate doubront? I am concerned that his last 2 months of 2012 was not just fatigue, but he has earned the 5th spot unless Lackey can turn back the clock and pitch like he did for the Angels.

[Plumpamania]

Wil Myers - OF - Royals

Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star reports that the Royals have had discussions about trading top prospect Wil Myers for either James Shields or Jon Lester.
The Royals have already added Ervin Santana via trade this offseason from the Angels and recently signed Jeremy Guthrie to a three-year contract, but they want a true front-line starter and are apparently willing to deal one of the most promising young hitters in the game in order to acquire one. Myers, 21, batted .314/.387/.600 with 37 home runs and 109 RBI in 134 games this past season between the Double-A and Triple-A levels.
Related: Jon Lester, James Shields
Source: Kansas City Star
Nov 26 - 8:07 PM

[a700hitter]

Right now he is the obvious choice. Lackey? No. Buchholz? Maybe. Doubront? hahaha you hate Doubront.
Lester being our obvious #1 underscores why we are a suckass last place team.

[a700hitter]

Wil Myers - OF - Royals

Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star reports that the Royals have had discussions about trading top prospect Wil Myers for either James Shields or Jon Lester.
The Royals have already added Ervin Santana via trade this offseason from the Angels and recently signed Jeremy Guthrie to a three-year contract, but they want a true front-line starter and are apparently willing to deal one of the most promising young hitters in the game in order to acquire one. Myers, 21, batted .314/.387/.600 with 37 home runs and 109 RBI in 134 games this past season between the Double-A and Triple-A levels.
Related: Jon Lester, James Shields
Source: Kansas City Star
Nov 26 - 8:07 PMNovember 26th is old news.

[jung]

That is the other interesting aspect of this potential trade. Even with Lester being an established ML pitcher he has work to do to get back to what KC would need from him. He is as much of a gamble to be the kind of guy KC needs as Myers is to be the next Trout.

The dif of course is that they will be paying Lester $11.6m as soon as they pick him up. If I were KC and could trade with somebody I would be looking for somebody that would cost me more money but that was more likely to give me what I need than Lester. Maybe that is why this deal has not actually been done as yet.

Why aren't the Rays a way better candidate for a trade than the Sox just as an example.

[Plumpamania]

We'll have to wait and see won't we?

[Plumpamania]

That is the other interesting aspect of this potential trade. Even with Lester being an established ML pitcher he has work to do to get back to what KC would need from him. He is as much of a gamble to be the kind of guy KC needs as Myers is to be the next Trout.

The dif of course is that they will be paying Lester $11.6m as soon as they pick him up. If I were KC and could trade with somebody I would be looking for somebody that would cost me more money but that was more likely to give me what I need than Lester. Maybe that is why this deal has not actually been done as yet.

Why aren't the Rays a way better candidate for a trade than the Sox just as an example.

The Rays are, but Lester is younger and a LHSP.

[BSN07]

Lester being our obvious #1 underscores why we are a suckass last place team.

All the more reason to trade him for a top prospect and maybe try to re-sign him in two years if they are close to contention.

[User Name?]

This conversation may become moot anyways. I get the feeling that Tampa's going to deal David Price, and that the guy they'll be gunning for is Myers. No way can the Sox compete against that.

[example1]

But they were can't miss prospects and those don' t get traded.

Hanley Ramirez was a #1 prospect and was traded. I suspect Jacob Turner was a #1 prospect when Detroit moves him for Sanchez. I'm confident there are other examples.

Secondly, just because a prospect isn't Harper or Trout doesn't mean they aren't good. Hell, Trout is a much better player than Harper so grouping them might not even make sense.

As for being one dimensional, wasn't Ted Williams that way? Babe Ruth? Was Hank Aaron known for his defense? Unless its atrocious I think it will be tolerable.

Finally you said that there are reports that Myers defense isn't MLB ready. I believe that you read that (rather than just citing made up stuff) but can you find the link so I can see it too? Thanks.

[Plumpamania]

And that's why example1 and I go back to Netsports.

[jung]

Lester may be younger but your argument is that KC wants to make a move to win now. So how does the age matter when competing with Shields or Price with Lester?

[Plumpamania]

Please don't group Price together with Shields or Lester. That's not fair to him.

[seabeachfred]

I don't think they are going to expect big ticket sales. That's why I expect the payroll is going to be closer to 100M then 200M. When Myers(if a trade happens), Barnes, De le Rosa , Bogaerts are ready to join the ML team, interest will pick back up and the payroll will rise again to supplement the young core.

Lester is no lock to sign another team friendly extension this off season. And I doubt if he pitches good this year he's going to bi-pass a shot at free agency that's only a season away. He will be 30 when his deal is up. And is he pitches decently the next two seasons he's getting CJ Wilson money minimum. If he pitches well, he cold be looking at CC, Hammels, Lee money.

Another thought it who's to say the can't trade him, then when he's a free agent bring him back? Trade for Myers and build with the youngsters the next two years. Then when they are ready for their push they could always go out and sign him on the open market. Something they may very well have to do anyways. Just a thought.

The only lock Lester is sure of is that he will once again get off to a crappy start, just as he has done every year for us, even in his good years. Besides that, he was absolute shit last year on the mound, especially at home. His attitude was pathetic, always arguing calls with umpires and then crmbling apart. We finished last with him so we can do without him. A trade for Will Myers would be a good one for us since it is doubtful Lester will get his infintile shit together. I wish it weren't so because I was one of his biggest fans a couple of years ago, but for his sake and especially for the team we need to get rid of this crud. He has become part and parcel of what was described this season as a very unlikeable team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The only lock Lester is sure of is that he will once again get off to a crappy start, just as he has done every year for us, even in his good years. Besides that, he was absolute shit last year on the mound, especially at home. His attitude was pathetic, always arguing calls with umpires and then crmbling apart. We finished last with him so we can do without him. A trade for Will Myers would be a good one for us since it is doubtful Lester will get his infintile shit together. I wish it weren't so because I was one of his biggest fans a couple of years ago, but for his sake and especially for the team we need to get rid of this crud. He has become part and parcel of what was described this season as a very unlikeable team.

With fans like you, who needs the Yankees?

[a700hitter]

All the more reason to trade him for a top prospect and maybe try to re-sign him in two years if they are close to contention.I am not against trading Lester. I proposed that during the season. I just don't think that this kid Myers could be a big stud like Trout or Harper. Otherwise, they wouldn't let him go for what Lester put on display last season.

[jung]

Price is better than Shields. Problem is that the Rays have so much pitching that they have several options they can throw on the table for Myers if they really want him.

[jung]

I think that comment from BC about the Sox pitchers pitching to their potential is scary as shit. They Sox have to do at least one of Haren or Marcum and if they deal Lester they have to do both. Yikes.

[mvp 78]

I think that comment from BC about the Sox pitchers pitching to their potential is scary as shit. They Sox have to do at least one of Haren or Marcum and if they deal Lester they have to do both. Yikes.

BC's comments seem to say that he wouldn't be trading Lester. Could there be a chance they don't pick up a SP? Yup. Or they may get a AAAA starter like last year.

[a700hitter]

Hanley Ramirez was a #1 prospect and was traded. I suspect Jacob Turner was a #1 prospect when Detroit moves him for Sanchez. I'm confident there are other examples.

Secondly, just because a prospect isn't Harper or Trout doesn't mean they aren't good. He'll, Trout is a much better player than Harper even so grouping them might not even make sense.

As for being one dimensional, wasn't Ted Williams that way? Babe Ruth? Was Hank Aaron known for his defense? Unless its atrocious I think it will be tolerable.

Finally you said that there are reports that Myers defense isn't MLB ready. I believe that you read that (rather than just citing made up stuff) but can you find the link so I can see it too? Thanks.Hanley had attitude issues in the Red Sox organization and he had a rocky up and down stay with us. We were going to move him to CF if he stayed with the Sox according to my recollection. Also, we moved Hanley for a big stud young pitcher whose career was on the way up. Beckett was lighting up the gun at 97 consistently. Lester is experiencing diminishing velocity and he is coming off a terrible season.

As for the report on his fielding, in a recent Peter A article, he made the statement about the scouting reports on Myers' fielding. He also mentioned the fact that Myers struck out 140 times in the minors last year. That is bound to go up in the majors.

As for the examples of one dimensional players provided by you, yes, Teddy Ballgame was one dimensional, but he probably didn't strike out 140 times in 3 combined major league seasons, so I don't think Myers is the next Ted Williams. Ruth was not one dimensional. In addition to being the all-time greatest slugger, he was arguably one of the best left handed pitchers in history. He had very good speed when he was young and he could field. His athleticism was legendary. Henry Aaron was a great fielder, not good, but great. He had a strong arm too. Aaron was an excellent base runner with very good speed. You need to do some research before you make statements like that.;)

[User Name?]

Hanley had attitude issues in the Red Sox organization and he had a rocky up and down stay with us. We were going to move him to CF if he stayed with the Sox according to my recollection. Also, we moved Hanley for a big stud young pitcher whose career was on the way up. Beckett was lighting up the gun at 97 consistently. Lester is experiencing diminishing velocity and he is coming off a terrible season.

Another example of statements made without prior research:

Jon Lester career average fastball velocity: 92.5 MPH.

Jon Lester 2012 average fastball velocity: 92.6 MPH.

[mvp 78]

Another example of statements made without prior research:

Jon Lester career average fastball velocity: 92.5 MPH.

Jon Lester 2012 average fastball velocity: 92.6 MPH.

But but but but the cutter!

[Dojji]

It doesn't matter whether he can throw the ball if he can' t catch it. His defense has been described as possibly not major league level. He is not a base stealer, so he is 1 dimensional insofar as he can only hit.

I'd looooooove to know exactly what you think the 5 tools are.

Here they are in no particular order

Hit for contact (this has, to some extent, been replaced with "plate discipline" but in either case, is a valid "tool."
Hit for power (separate from conatct-hitting/discipline, for obvious reasons)
Run the bases
Run down the ball
Throw the ball

At least three of those tools are not in question when it comes to Myers, so calling him one dimensional is a "strecther" to be putting it mildly -- if not an outright lie.

Besides which, the 2 of the 3 tools that are not in question are easily the 2 most important tools for a corner outfielder, which he would definitely be in Boston.

I'm not in favor of the trade, but just because I agree with you doesn't mean you get to invent your own truth and go live there in blissful disregard of the actual facts.

[seabeachfred]

With fans like you, who needs the Yankees?

Sometimes Forsyth the truth really hurts, but even if you didn't like what I wrote, please me one thing in my post that was incorrect. There wasn't anything. You just didn't like hearing it. Think about Lester this past season and tell me three things you liked about his performance. You would be very hard pressed to.

[a700hitter]

I'd looooooove to know exactly what you think the 5 tools are.

Here they are in no particular order

Hit for contact (this has, to some extent, been replaced with "plate discipline" but in either case, is a valid "tool."
Hit for power (separate from conatct-hitting/discipline, for obvious reasons)
Run the bases
Run down the ball
Throw the ball

At least three of those tools are not in question when it comes to Myers, so calling him one dimensional is a "strecther" to be putting it mildly -- if not an outright lie.

Besides which, the 2 of the 3 tools that are not in question are easily the 2 most important tools for a corner outfielder, which he would definitely be in Boston.

I'm not in favor of the trade, but just because I agree with you doesn't mean you get to invent your own truth and go live there in blissful disregard of the actual facts.If people in the know say that he is barely passable as a major league OFer and he doesn't steal bases, I would conclude that he is one-dimensional.

BTW: Why would I lie about this kid or any player? Maybe my sources of information are wrong. I can't vouch for the information as infallible, but to infer that I would lie about something as inconsequential as a stupid discussion on Sports Forum is ridiculous. I read about his fielding and his high k rate in a Peter A article. Who knows... maybe he is lying.:thumbdown

Edit: I am in favor of trading Lester if they think he is on the downslide. I suggested trading him during the season. I am just not sold on this kid from what I have read.

Seriously, what an asshole.

[DocHolliday]

My only issue with the proposed deal is the future of the pitching staff, with or without Lester.

To this point, the only pitcher on the Sox roster who has shown any capability of filling the role of ace at ANY point in their career is Lester. Granted, the last resemblance of that type of dominance came in the latter part of 2010, better than 2 years in the past. Maybe some of the drop off can be attributed to losing Farrell as pitching coach. But I think we can all agree to some extent that Lester has lost some of the edge he had in 2010 - whether its due to health, approach, hitter adjustments, or poor coaching, its clear Lester has lost the edge he had from 2 seasons ago. So its not a given that even if Lester stays that he will return to be a semblance of his old self.

Say he does get traded for Myers or another highly regarded positional prospect - who do the Sox have in the current staff or in the upper levels of the farm system that could step in and replace Lester's assumed role of ace (whether we agree that he truely is that or not)? Buchholz? Doubront? De La Rosa? There are plenty of question marks and varying levels of doubt with all of these and any other current candidates that could be thrown out there.

I'd say its safe to say that a trade of Lester for a positional prospect could be an unofficial punt on 2013. Assuming the prospect wasn't subsequently shipped out as part of a trade for a pitcher of Verlander or Felix Hernandez caliber, many chips would have to fall in the Sox favor to seriously contend in 2013 without having a ace like pitcher at the top (and reliable depth starters in slots 2 - 6 or 7).

[jung]

We are down to struggling just to establish any level of reliability at this point whether it is 1 in the rotation reliability or some other level of reliability. We can bring in a guy or two for a year to get us through 2013 but one 1 year deals they will be costly. As stated earlier these most recent BC comments are really disturbing...suggest that they might not even do a 1 year deal for somebody. Granted it would seem they would have to do at least one as we don;t even have 5 guys for the rotation at the moment even with Lester.

[SoxSport]

They have a ton of money to spend. I'd rather see them spend the money on FAs--which they didn't do last year-- than give up prospects or starting pitching in deals. Especially FAs that don't require any draft picks. Their no.1 is exempt, anyways. When you think about it, FAs are the obvious way to go.

[Plumpamania]

So if we're gonna have issues with or without Lester, why not save the cash and bank in on another possible top hitting star?

[DocHolliday]

We are down to struggling just to establish any level of reliability at this point whether it is 1 in the rotation reliability or some other level of reliability. We can bring in a guy or two for a year to get us through 2013 but one 1 year deals they will be costly. As stated earlier these most recent BC comments are really disturbing...suggest that they might not even do a 1 year deal for somebody. Granted it would seem they would have to do at least one as we don;t even have 5 guys for the rotation at the moment even with Lester.

True - they almost certainly have to bring someone else in (if they keep Lester), whether its for a 1 year or multiple years. But I think it makes a lot more sense for the FA addition to be on a 1 year basis - even if its an overpay AAV. I'm not going to suggest that any of us will be giving the Sox a lot of slack if the option they brought in turned out to be a 2011 Lackey or a 2005 Wade Miller or Matt Clement. But if it did turn out that way, they could cut ties at the end of the season, as opposed to having to bring them back for another 2 or 3 seasons, and that would probably save us (and probably them) a lot of agony.

They've made the mistake with FA pitchers on multi year contracts so many times, even when they had competitive teams and the mistakes were less significant. If they went out and signed another dud for multiple years, many of us would be giving them a lot more hell than we would if they made the same mistake on a 1 year deal.

[Spitball]

If people in the know say that he is barely passable as a major league OFer and he doesn't steal bases, I would conclude that he is one-dimensional.


Links?

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/making-the-comparison-wil-myers1/



If Myers struggles, it will probably be with a slightly higher average and slightly lower power than Burrell had, but the same profile remains. Myers will offer more defensive value than Burrell, even if he can't play center field, but it's not enough to make him more than right around league average if he's a .260 hitter.

So what do we have in Myers?

The good news with our comps is that Myers should develop into a regular in the Royals lineup for a nice long prime. He is an immensely talented hitter whose risk of falling flat on his face is extremely limited at this point. Could he still fail completely? Of course, any prospect can. But we can be as sure of Myers become at least a league-average hitter as we can of any prospect currently in the minors.

The question is what type of hitter Myers will become. Is he going to be a great all-around hitter like Holliday, who can hit over .300 and hit 30 home runs a season while limiting strikeouts? Or will he do so with moderate power in the 20 homer range instead? Or is the power and strikeout combo the real Myers, and if so, how much will the strikeouts affect his ability to hit for average? And lastly, what happens to Myers when the league ultimately figures him out? Can he adjust?

Our comps of Holliday, Alou, Dye and Burrell lay out the possibilities for Myers in the near future. He should be an impact hitter for the Royals, and likely soon, but there's no guarantee he'll be the three-hitter fans are already penciling him in to be.

[example1]

Hanley had attitude issues in the Red Sox organization and he had a rocky up and down stay with us. We were going to move him to CF if he stayed with the Sox according to my recollection. Also, we moved Hanley for a big stud young pitcher whose career was on the way up. Beckett was lighting up the gun at 97 consistently. Lester is experiencing diminishing velocity and he is coming off a terrible season.

Your point was that teams don't trade top prospects. I gave you examples and you talked about the player returned. That has nothing to do with whether teams trade top prospects. Attitude problem, genital warts, it doesn't matter. You said they don't, I showed they do.



As for the report on his fielding, in a recent Peter A article, he made the statement about the scouting reports on Myers' fielding. He also mentioned the fact that Myers struck out 140 times in the minors last year. That is bound to go up in the majors.


He apparently didn't read the same scouting reports that I did or which have been posted here. Terrible fielders are placed in the corner OF positions, even in the minor leagues. It doesn't make sense to play him in CF. The scouting reports I've seen say he has good athleticism for a player his size.

I don't disagree with Abraham's general concern about a COF for a SP. However, if Lester has been in a real decline (as you argue) then it's not a huge loss. Also, Myers has been playing CF in the minors. In theory, he could play that in Fenway, if the Sox didn't have superior fielders like Ellsbury and Bradley Jr waiting. No need for him to play there. Go to LF, play decent OF and rake. That's all he needs to do.


As for the examples of one dimensional players provided by you, yes, Teddy Ballgame was one dimensional, but he probably didn't strike out 140 times in 3 combined major league seasons, so I don't think Myers is the next Ted Williams. Ruth was not one dimensional. In addition to being the all-time greatest slugger, he was arguably one of the best left handed pitchers in history. He had very good speed when he was young and he could field. His athleticism was legendary. Henry Aaron was a great fielder, not good, but great. He had a strong arm too. Aaron was an excellent base runner with very good speed. You need to do some research before you make statements like that.;)

I appreciate your history lesson. Baseball Ref lists Ruth's defensive contribution as -2.3 wins throughout his career, with a season high of 1.2 in 1923. Perhaps he was an excellent fielder, or maybe he was just a good hitter and an average fielder. Those numbers don't say anything great about his fielding. And yes, he was a pitcher too. As for Aaron, my bad. He was a great fielder. I take it back. :lol:

Plenty of scouting reports and "experts" say they make that deal in a heartbeat. I don't agree with you that it never makes sense to trade someone who is a #2 or #3 starter for a player with the potential to put up a mid .900 OPS if that batter is only an average fielder. The fact that Myers will cost virtually nothing ($$ wise) and is only beginning his career adds enough to me to be comfortable with them taking that risk. Your opinion is clearly different. No point in disputing it much more.

[BSN07]

If people in the know say that he is barely passable as a major league OFer and he doesn't steal bases, I would conclude that he is one-dimensional.

BTW: Why would I lie about this kid or any player? Maybe my sources of information are wrong. I can't vouch for the information as infallible, but to infer that I would lie about something as inconsequential as a stupid discussion on Sports Forum is ridiculous. I read about his fielding and his high k rate in a Peter A article. Who knows... maybe he is lying.:thumbdown

Edit: I am in favor of trading Lester if they think he is on the downslide. I suggested trading him during the season. I am just not sold on this kid from what I have read.

Seriously, what an asshole.

Yes he's barely passable in CF in his first full season at the position after moving from not a COF spot, but catcher.

[BSN07]

The Rays are nearing a one-year deal with James Loney, but the team is also discussing the possiblity of a trade with the Nationals that would involve starting pitching for Danny Espinosa and Michael Morse, according to Jim Bowden of ESPN and MLB Network Radio (Twitter link).

I hope TB makes this trade. If they do they are less llikely to trade with KC, making Lester KC's best option.

[example1]

I suppose so BSN but Tampa Bay tends to do pretty well with their moves, so I hate to see them being active in any regard.

[jung]

TB does do pretty well. They are always drafting pitching which tends to make them rich in pitching and there are few teams that can make that claim. I guess that might account for their success rate when it comes to trades as they are one of the few places a team could go to find some pitching.

[cbbosox]

To me it's simple
If the Sox think they can contend next year keep Lester
If not trade him

[jacksonianmarch]

I just dont see the rationale behind dealing from your weakness to add to a strength. If I was Cherington, I only deal Lester if I think I can get a better pitcher

[BSN07]

I just dont see the rationale behind dealing from your weakness to add to a strength. If I was Cherington, I only deal Lester if I think I can get a better pitcher

Because even with Lester it has the chance of being a bad rotation. Besides I think they could bring someone like Haren and get similar production for the next couple years. They could always re-sign him in 2 years when Myers, Bogaerts, Bradley, Barnes, De la Rosa and Webster are ready to contribute.

[jacksonianmarch]

Because even with Lester it has the chance of being a bad rotation. Besides I think they could bring someone like Haren and get similar production for the next couple years. They could always re-sign him in 2 years when Myers, Bogaerts, Bradley, Barnes, De la Rosa and Webster are ready to contribute.

As we see with all prospects, though, they aren't a sure thing. Injuries and ineffectiveness limit a lot of these prospects, especially those on the pitching end. You know what you have in terms of workload for Lester. You hope he can pitch to his potential and give you high end innings. And I doubt Haren can do that, especially when his hip and back are issues of contention and he lost velo last yr. Back injuries, mid 30s and lost velocity are bad mixes for starting pitchers

[BSN07]

As we see with all prospects, though, they aren't a sure thing. Injuries and ineffectiveness limit a lot of these prospects, especially those on the pitching end. You know what you have in terms of workload for Lester. You hope he can pitch to his potential and give you high end innings. And I doubt Haren can do that, especially when his hip and back are issues of contention and he lost velo last yr. Back injuries, mid 30s and lost velocity are bad mixes for starting pitchers

I'm just saying what Lester has done over the last couple years is not irreplaceable. And normally I'm hesitant to want to give up a more proven asset like Lester for prospects. Myers is just a unique situation.

[User Name?]

As we see with all prospects, though, they aren't a sure thing. Injuries and ineffectiveness limit a lot of these prospects, especially those on the pitching end. You know what you have in terms of workload for Lester. You hope he can pitch to his potential and give you high end innings. And I doubt Haren can do that, especially when his hip and back are issues of contention and he lost velo last yr. Back injuries, mid 30s and lost velocity are bad mixes for starting pitchers

Haren was reasonably effective given his back issues last year. He's also 32, which is still relatively young, not 35 or 36. This is a guy you can gamble on for one year. If at his worst he's going to post 2012 numbers, he'd still be a significant upgrade for the Red Sox rotation.

[jung]

I am not at all convinced that people realize how bad this rotation could be. For one thing Lester is the only guy that has gone innings for a team that has beaten the hell out of its bull pen two years running. While Lester has not provided the kinds of innings you would expect from a 1, he has eaten more innings than anybody they are likely to bring in even on these anticipated one year deals....which I have supported.

[User Name?]

The truth is that no matter what they do for next year, as Lester goes, so goes the starting rotation.

[BSN07]

The Tigers made Anibal Sanchez a contract offer earlier in the offseason worth $48MM over four years, reports Jon Heyman of CBS Sports (Twitter link). According to Heyman, Detroit was informed by Sanchez's agent that such an offer would "insult" the right-hander, who is seeking $90MM for six years


That seems like a reasonable offer. I think LAD is the only team that would give him 90M, and that's only if the miss out on Grienke.

[a700hitter]

That seems like a reasonable offer. I think LAD is the only team that would give him 90M, and that's only if the miss out on Grienke.If he goes for 4/$60 million, that's not too bad considering the supply ad demand for pitching this off season.

[BSN07]

If he goes for 4/$60 million, that's not too bad considering the supply ad demand for pitching this off season.

I said I'd be fine seeing the Sox offer 4/60M. I don't know if that will be enough and anything more it starts to get iffy.

[rjortiz]

Tigers offered Sanchez 4/48, which Sanchez's agent called an insult.

[RedSoxNC84]

We won't get Sanchez unless Cherington really opens up the purse, or a miracle happens.. If they don't want to sign someone at more than five years, I doubt we're going to see this guy in a sox uniform.

[SoxSport]

Pass on Sanchez. His agent is way overvaluing him. He's not any better than what they have.
What they need is some decent coaching of what they have. The pitching was handled badly last year.

[Bellhorn04]

I have my doubts Sanchez is going to get that 6/90.