Jose Iglesias

[SCM33]

.....is not the future at SS.

[redsoxbeatz]

I have not watched him play. I haven't had Internet in two weeks so no chance to watch.

Why not?? No avg??

[jung]

I suspect the thing that has been a bit of a surprise is that so far he has not even shown that he can even handle a bat at this level. So far he is being completely overpowered at the plate. Not many games yet and the Sox have run into some pretty tough rotations of late. I would reserve judgement about this until he has come to the plate against a wider range of pitchers. However it is like watching a young boy up there trying to hit against these guys. He has so far, been completely overmatched. It is like watching a weak hitting pitcher up there.

I would want the Sox to keep him here to see if he can catch up to these guys during these next 30 games. If he can he can and if he can't he can't. Not sure it is more complicated than that.

He deserves the chance though. There is nothing better to do with the time anyway. Based on what we have seen so far, if he just end up looking like he can handle a bat at this level that would be encouraging. He is is exactly were he is today 30 games from today, I think that will be hard to ignore.

[SoxSport]

Looks like the talent evaluators have made up their minds on Iggy after a couple of games. LOL.


Keep in mind that Iggy has been a victim of Red Sox politics this year. He looked good enough to stick in ST, then got hurt trying to steal home, of all things. He goes to Pawtucket, starts slowly, and has recently shown improvement in his hitting--so said his manager. Now he might be struggling a bit hitting. No surprise since all the FO talk has been negative about his hitting. He isn't getting a fair shake.The focus should be on his defense--his strength--not his hitting. He's playing a defensive position. Think positive. Build the kid's confidence.

The same goes at catcher. Forget the HRs. The Red Sox have gone with Salty all season, a weak defensive catcher, and Aviles, a so-so SS. Both these guys hit HRs , but their OBPs suck--below .300--which negates those HRs. Too many outs, and not enough defense.

The Sox have weak pitching, and should be placing more emphasis on defense at key positions--SS and catcher--to improve their pitching. They need more balance in their lineup.

[BornToRun]

It's early. The kid still needs time and no one here wants him on the team for his bat. If he can hold down the 9 hole with a .320 or so OBP and play GG defense, I'll be happy.

[jung]

As good as he might be defensively he cannot be the equivalent of a weak hitting pitcher in a league that does not even allow pitchers to hit. He has to be able to at least handle a bat and so far he has not shown an ability to even handle a bat at this level. He is being completely overpowered so far. I have not given up hope on him but if he cannot improve at all from here as I said earlier I don't see how one could ignore that.

If that is the case it almost does not matter what any of us thinks. Under no circumstances that I can envision would the Sox allow a player that cannot even handle a bat at this level be their everyday SS. It just won't happen. He is so overmatched, he cannot even lay down a bunt....can't get a ball out of the infield even. I am sorry but that is just to far off the charts on the bottom end even for me and I have wanted him here to this point.

We should see where he is after these 30 or so games. He should play at short every single game in an effort to see if he can catch up at least to the point where he looks like he can handle at bat at this level. He needs the 30 games as well just so that we can see the result against a wide range of pitchers than he has faced so far. Not even sure how many LH pitchers he has faced so far...mostly Righties I think and the last few series have been against some tough teams looking for victories because they are in the hunt. But even at that if he cannot handle a bat at all against any of the guys he sees in 30 games, I will be more convinced than ever that the Sox will end up trading him somewhere. That is the problem if there is one. So far at least in these few at bats he has not even exhibited an ability to handle a bat at all.

I am going to be totally pissed if I see anybody but Iggy penciled into SS for the remainder of the season.

[DocHolliday]

As good as he might be defensively he cannot be the equivalent of a weak hitting pitcher in a league that does not even allow pitchers to hit. He has to be able to at least handle a bat and so far he has not shown an ability to even handle a bat at this level. He is being completely overpowered so far. I have not given up hope on him but if he cannot improve at all from here as I said earlier I don't see how one could ignore that.

If that is the case it almost does not matter what any of us thinks. Under no circumstances that I can envision would the Sox allow a player that cannot even handle a bat at this level be their everyday SS. It just won't happen. He is so overmatched, he cannot even lay down a bunt....can't get a ball out of the infield even. I am sorry but that is just to far off the charts on the bottom end even for me and I have wanted him here to this point.

We should see where he is after these 30 or so games. He should play at short every single game in an effort to see if he can catch up at least to the point where he looks like he can handle at bat at this level. He needs the 30 games as well just so that we can see the result against a wide range of pitchers than he has faced so far. Not even sure how many LH pitchers he has faced so far...mostly Righties I think and the last few series have been against some tough teams looking for victories because they are in the hunt. But even at that if he cannot handle a bat at all against any of the guys he sees in 30 games, I will be more convinced than ever that the Sox will end up trading him somewhere. That is the problem if there is one. So far at least in these few at bats he has not even exhibited an ability to handle a bat at all.

I am going to be totally pissed if I see anybody but Iggy penciled into SS for the remainder of the season.

Through a handful of games so far this season, we can all agree Iglesias has had difficultly at the plate to the point that he has not been able to get his first hit. There's no question that he has issues with the bat that he will have to work out to stick.

On the other hand, here are the pitchers he has faced in the handful of games he's played:

- Jered Weaver
- CJ Wilson
- Zach Grienke
- Brandon McCarthy

Again, not saying his current approach will cut it at the ML level, but let's give him some more time to see ML pitching for a longer period of time. There's a big difference between the pitching at AAA and ML - particularly with the upper group of pitchers he has faced so far.

[jung]

They have already posted the lineup today and Aviles is penciled into SS. Why? What the hell do we have to learn from having Aviles play SS tonight?

[Thunder]

Iglesias can't hit at the Major League level. I've been saying this for a year or so now. If he can work on it in Spring Training, then he might be the future. Might.

[wyo-sox]

I personally do not see that much in Iggy to get excited about. He is not the answer. He may make plays look smoother than others and once every few games he may make a play someone else might not have, but he will cost you at the plate several times every game , and we won't ever get points for style.

But the real issue for me is that SS is not the problem. Has anyone ever at any point felt like we were just a good ss away from turning things around?

Unless Iggy gets great control on a fastball and develops a curve and change up, I don't think he will have much impact. I mean, did you notice we got beat 20-2 last night? Its nothing but pitching, and its become laughably obvious.

[SCM33]

Looks like the talent evaluators have made up their minds on Iggy after a couple of games. LOL.


Keep in mind that Iggy has been a victim of Red Sox politics this year. He looked good enough to stick in ST, then got hurt trying to steal home, of all things. He goes to Pawtucket, starts slowly, and has recently shown improvement in his hitting--so said his manager. Now he might be struggling a bit hitting. No surprise since all the FO talk has been negative about his hitting. He isn't getting a fair shake.The focus should be on his defense--his strength--not his hitting. He's playing a defensive position. Think positive. Build the kid's confidence.

The same goes at catcher. Forget the HRs. The Red Sox have gone with Salty all season, a weak defensive catcher, and Aviles, a so-so SS. Both these guys hit HRs , but their OBPs suck--below .300--which negates those HRs. Too many outs, and not enough defense.

The Sox have weak pitching, and should be placing more emphasis on defense at key positions--SS and catcher--to improve their pitching. They need more balance in their lineup.

Hes awful.

His numbers in the minors show that he almost has zero chance or any kind of success at the major league level. I already said it.....but his OPS somehow manages to be below his slugging. He has zero pop in his bat. MLB pitchers are more productive than his minor league numbers.

Salty sucks, you know my stance on this. He needs to be replaced. They need a REAL catcher. I dont care if he hits .230 like Salty, but he HAS to be able to call and work a game.

[Behindenemylines]

We are losing now with Aviles at SS and he is not the future, we might well see if Iglesias has anything at all. Playing him one game and sitting him the next is not doing anyone any good. Need to continue evaluating for 2013 because 2012 was done weeks ago. When do pitchers and catchers report?

[a700hitter]

We are losing now with Aviles at SS and he is not the future, we might well see if Iglesias has anything at all. Playing him one game and sitting him the next is not doing anyone any good. Need to continue evaluating for 2013 because 2012 was done weeks ago. When do pitchers and catchers report?Maybe they are afraid to expose him. Sometimes prospects lose all their value when it becomes obvious that they can't hack it in the big leagues. I am just not seeing anything so special about this guy on either side of the ball.

[SoxSport]

I think you have to give the kid a chance to sink or swim. That hasn't happened yet.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's 12 ABs, so it isnt like he will hit .000 for a season. But if you are looking for his lumber to justify anything, then you are grasping at straws

[jung]

He has to be at least able to handle a bat at this level. I would take him being able to handle a bat like a average pitcher. Right now, based on what I have seen he has not given any indication that he can handle a bat better than a weak hitting pitcher. That is just to far down the scale.

However not investing the time in these last few games to find out is just stupid.....since they have done every stupid thing you can think of in the space of one year, I guess that would be in keeping with the spirit of things. Play him every day against a variety of different pitchers and see if the guy can at least not be completely overpowered every at bat. As I said earlier, so far he can't lay down a bunt, can't even hit a seeing eye single cause he ball comes off the bat so weakly that he cannot even get it out of the infield. That won't fly if he can't do better.

[wyo-sox]

We are losing now with Aviles at SS and he is not the future, we might well see if Iglesias has anything at all. Playing him one game and sitting him the next is not doing anyone any good. Need to continue evaluating for 2013 because 2012 was done weeks ago. When do pitchers and catchers report?

Yes we are loosing with Aviles at short- and when Iggy has played short, we have lost. We are also loosing with Pedroia at 2nd. All irrelevant, its the starting pitching.

[SoxSport]

The team has stopped playing for Bobby. And Bobby doesn't give a damn.

It's time to replace him. Everybody can see that. Even Henry.

You want that front office, Henry? Well you better let them pick their manager.

[Behindenemylines]

The starting pitching problem can not be fixed until the off season. If you are using the rest of the season to see what the young guys can do, then do it. Most of the season the starting pitching has been a mess and I think everyone agrees with that. If we are going to lose we might as well lose by looking at the future (Iglesias if he has one) not Aviles who will not be the future SS. He is what we would call a bridge SS. If Iglesias doesn't get the reps at SS you still don't know what you have. Everyone knows it was the starting pitching that ruin 2012. You still have to field everyday players next season so avaluate what you have.

[Orange Juiced]

Agreed. Why in the world Cook and Dice-K are pitching games for the Boston Red Sox is a complete mystery.

[MJantomaso]

This guy is no better than a John McDonald. He is not a 5 tool player. I don't know how you guys have been blowing him for years now. He has never been able to hit....ever. He has wheels and a glove and not much else. He will always be one of those player that makes a living with minor league affiliated teams.

[jopete19]

What do you guys think about Aviles... I think he has does a really good job this year at SS. A nice surprise!

[jung]

Mike Aviles is horrible. If he is here next year he will likely split time with Ciriaco. But the fact that he is here at all is more evidence for a clueless FO. The only thing as scary as Aviles at SS is Ross in RF. Ross needs to play in left as he is a circus act in Right. Fenway's left field is Ross's savior both at the plate and in the field.

[jopete19]

Aviles is not horrible. Iglesias is horrible. He has hidden power and has the ability to drive in runs. I like him at short. I agree with you that Ross looks like a clown in right.

[jung]

Mike Aviles is a butcher at SS. He has no range going to his right almost falling over trying to make his first crossover going that way and takes forever to make plays regardless of direction which is why we miss so many DP's. He simply takes to long to get to, corral and then release the baseball. He is not at all graceful around the position and even Ciriaco makes him look like a stickman at SS. Aviles error totals are acceptable because you are not dinged in errors for missing DP's and you are not dinged for balls you can't get to.

Aviles has at least twice this year come very close to ambushing his teammates in left field and at 3rd running with reckless abandon after pop flies in the outfield only avoiding monster crashes because they other guys pulled up before he careened into them full bore.

Mike Aviles is a utility infielder and a utility infielder has no business playing the most important defensive position on the field everyday especially with a weak pitching staff.

[mvp 78]

Jung, how do you feel about Reyes or Andrus? Defensive metrics show Aviles has had a better 2012 than either of those guys. Also, he has the 5th best range at SS this year.

[Brennan]

Mike Aviles is a butcher at SS. He has no range going to his right almost falling over trying to make his first crossover going that way and takes forever to make plays regardless of direction which is why we miss so many DP's. He simply takes to long to get to, corral and then release the baseball. He is not at all graceful around the position and even Ciriaco makes him look like a stickman at SS. Aviles error totals are acceptable because you are not dinged in errors for missing DP's and you are not dinged for balls you can't get to.

Aviles has at least twice this year come very close to ambushing his teammates in left field and at 3rd running with reckless abandon after pop flies in the outfield only avoiding monster crashes because they other guys pulled up before he careened into them full bore.

Mike Aviles is a utility infielder and a utility infielder has no business playing the most important defensive position on the field everyday especially with a weak pitching staff.




I think he has Salty syndrome Jung. People find a few things about him that look good and ride with it like RBIs or Salty's HR's. They don't take into account hitting with RISP, K-rates etc. I saw a few posts recently praising Punto and stating that his play for us was understated and will be missed. For what? A few good defensive plays in one series vs. the yank offs? You know what really stands out for me about Aviles? The countless times he comes to the plate with two outs when we could really use a hit badly and he fails like clockwork or as you mentioned, range or no range, how many run of the mill DP's have we watched him butcher so far?

[wyo-sox]

I think Aviles has been adequate, certainly we could find someone better, but my eyes do not see him butchering defensive plays or doing a bad job. If nobody comes in from the outside Pedro would be my first choice at ss and Aviles as an infield utility guy.

[redsoxfan3]

I think Aviles has been adequate, certainly we could find someone better, but my eyes do not see him butchering defensive plays or doing a bad job. If nobody comes in from the outside Pedro would be my first choice at ss and Aviles as an infield utility guy.

I agree here. Iglesias has an unproven bat and I don't see him becoming a great offensive hitter anytime soon. If we choose to stick with Iglesias, we need to have other offensive weapons that can produce. Iglesias will not be anything more than a nine hitter who is playing because of his defense. He is an offensive liability. Aviles has been adequate this year, but I do not think he will be our starting SS for the next few or even next couple years. If we stick with internal options, I would be fine with giving Ciriaco a shot and having Aviles as a utility IF. I would really like us to get a solid defensive SS, with at least a decent bat. In a perfect world, that is probably not going to happen because those are hard to come by. The free agent SS's are not anything great. Ciriaco might be the best option, unless we can manage to trade for someone.

[jimbob728]

If Iglesias is going to be the shortstop of the future they need to let the pitchers bat and DH his ass. Ciriaco had 3 three hit games in one week and at least 6 multi-hit games this year. Career .320.

Iglesias is 2 for 22 career .091. A major league stadium is not the place to learn how to hit.

As for fielding, Ciriaco ..971 fielding %. Iglesias .938.

I just don't get the love for Iggy. Kalish either for that matter.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I just don't get the love for Iggy. Kalish either for that matter.

It's because you base your opinions off tiny sample sizes

[Palodios]

If Iglesias is going to be the shortstop of the future they need to let the pitchers bat and DH his ass. Ciriaco had 3 three hit games in one week and at least 6 multi-hit games this year. Career .320.

Iglesias is 2 for 22 career .091. A major league stadium is not the place to learn how to hit.

As for fielding, Ciriaco ..971 fielding %. Iglesias .938.

I just don't get the love for Iggy. Kalish either for that matter.

DH doesn't work like that.

You're looking at small sample sizes for offensive numbers. Ciriaco will come down to earth, and Iggy will probably hit around .200.

Fielding percentage is a terrible way to look at defense, especially when looking at small sample sizes.

[Station 13]

I have no problem playing Mike Aviles next year at SS. He's slightly above average with defense, rarely makes bad throws. His bat is decent for a SS, with a few HR here and there. RISP he does rake. He's holding down the job. No-one has outplayed him at SS.

Send Iggy packing back to AAA.

[a700hitter]

I'd explore the possibility of the Marlins dumping Reyes.

[jung]

Aviles does have a great arm...that is his major asset. In fact if they moved him to the outfield he would immediately have the best outfield arm they have with the exception of Kalish when he is around and it might even be better than Kalish's arm.

I suspect unless something miraculous happens with Iggys bat or a trade does not happen we will see much more Ciriaco at SS next year as he is far better than Aviles is defensively and so far has carried a decent bat. Will have to see where he is when AL pitchers have more of a book on him.

[Station 13]

I'd explore the possibility of the Marlins dumping Reyes.

That would be a catastrophe.

[jung]

Reyes scares me. Not at all sure I would want to see him here.

[Station 13]

Aviles does have a great arm...that is his major asset. In fact if they moved him to the outfield he would immediately have the best outfield arm they have with the exception of Kalish when he is around and it might even be better than Kalish's arm.

I suspect unless something miraculous happens with Iggys bat or a trade does not happen we will see much more Ciriaco at SS next year as he is far better than Aviles is defensively and so far has carried a decent bat. Will have to see where he is when AL pitchers have more of a book on him.

Ciriaco is fast, but it doesn't mean his range is good. He has booted more balls in such a short time than I remember Aviles all year. SS is more difficult to play than 3B. and Ciriaco look pretty awful over 3B and it will only get more expose at SS. He's a utility guy, not a starter at any position.

[jung]

Well then they need to trade for a SS or simply bridge the season with Ciriaco and Aviles. Ciriaco sits about halfway from Aviles to Iggy. Aviles is simply not close to Ciriaco and Ciriaco is not close to Iggy but has a better bat than Iggy. In truth from what I have seen, the Sox simply don't have a SS at the moment. It is just that simple.

By the way, they clearly won't even let Aviles play 3rd under any circumstances although he is billed as being available for the position. At least they let Ciriaco play there. SS is the most difficult infield position but 3rd is enough different that a good SS does not necessarily make a good 3rd baseman. Ground ball plays are completely different between 3rd and SS. It is truly a different skill set.

[a700hitter]

Reyes scares me. Not at all sure I would want to see him here.It depends on the price. He's not scared by a big stage and his full contract was much smaller than we paid to Crawford. If they could get a discount off that and throw in Iglesias and some other non-blue chip prospects, I would consider it.

[jimbob728]

DH doesn't work like that.

You're looking at small sample sizes for offensive numbers. Ciriaco will come down to earth, and Iggy will probably hit around .200.

Fielding percentage is a terrible way to look at defense, especially when looking at small sample sizes.


I agree that I am basing it on a small sample size. But I still don't think the Major Leagues is the place to learn to hit or to be satisfied with a .200 potential hitter.

He may save some runs with the glove but he will be a rally killer worse than Salty.

And what do you mean DH don't work like that. You can DH anybody just as long as only 9 players bat. If you DH Iggy the pitcher would have to bat. Based on a small sample size again Morales has more hits than Iggy.

I'd rather have a guy like Nomar, Ripken or even Aviles than a guy like Mario Mendoza.

[SoxSport]

Ciriaco is fast, but it doesn't mean his range is good. He has booted more balls in such a short time than I remember Aviles all year. SS is more difficult to play than 3B. and Ciriaco look pretty awful over 3B and it will only get more expose at SS. He's a utility guy, not a starter at any position.

I think Ciriaco is built more for SS than 3B. Tall, wirey, like Iggy. Looks awkward to me at 3B.

[SoxSport]

Reyes scares me. Not at all sure I would want to see him here.

I don't know if he would be available. He's overpaid, like most of those top FAs, and is too injury prone for his salary.

I think they ought to give Iggy a good look. Like 1-2 seasons. Then pass judgement on him.He has exceptional defensive skills. Let's see how he matures as a hitter. Rome was not built in a day.

His problem right now is his manager, who is showing signs of stress and may not be the right guy to handle a bunch of prospects. I wonder if Henry has considered that.

[SouthieFanatic]

I've given up on Iggy figuring out the bat. It's hard to say it though considering he's only 22. Aviles should start SS in 2013 until Bogaerts is ready to take it late 2013. Yes Bogaerts as a SS, not LF and not 3B

[Palodios]

You can DH anybody just as long as only 9 players bat. If you DH Iggy the pitcher would have to bat.

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_hitter

[Laser Show]

And what do you mean DH don't work like that. You can DH anybody just as long as only 9 players bat. If you DH Iggy the pitcher would have to bat. Based on a small sample size again Morales has more hits than Iggy.



There is no way Iggy can play SS and not have to bat. It just doesn't work that way. If the pitcher is batting in an AL game, you have basically forfeited the DH. You can take the bat out of the pitchers hands in an AL game, but you can't take it out of a fielders.

If Iggy was DHing, then the manager needs to be fired.

[jung]

If (still willing to say if) Iggy does not work out, it is truly a shame for a number of reasons....not the least of which is that until the next guy is ready to come up (already being talked about as passing Iggy by) then the Sox really don't have a SS. A true testament to the screwed up FO. They have three guys....none of whom represent a complete SS. Aviles who hits (sometimes) but fields (rarely), Ciriaco who fields far better than Aviles, not nearly as good as Iggy leaves us unsure as far as his hitting goes and Iggy who is a fielding genius but appears so far unable to hit a lick...as in not at all! I know SS's are at a premium especially of late but this is ridiculous.

[kapsis21]

If (still willing to say if) Iggy does not work out, it is truly a shame for a number of reasons....not the least of which is that until the next guy is ready to come up (already being talked about as passing Iggy by) then the Sox really don't have a SS. A true testament to the screwed up FO. They have three guys....none of whom represent a complete SS. Aviles who hits (sometimes) but fields (rarely), Ciriaco who fields far better than Aviles, not nearly as good as Iggy leaves us unsure as far as his hitting goes and Iggy who is a fielding genius but appears so far unable to hit a lick...as in not at all! I know SS's are at a premium especially of late but this is ridiculous.

just be our luck aint it.

[rhfil]

I am not sure what the issue is. As far as I am concerned Ciriaco is the starting ss next year. I thought he should have been this year. He is a better fielder and hitter than Aviles and certainly a much better hitter than Iglesias. I see no reason to look elsewhere for a ss.

[jung]

Ciriaco has not nearly had enough exposure to ML pitchers as yet and has yet to come out the other side of having every pitcher in the league know exactly what you weak spot is and pitching to it. Some guys come out of that OK, others do not.

At this point without anybody else I would start the season with Ciriaco at SS and Aviles or somebody backing him up. However we really do not know where Ciriaco is at this point. Although what he has shown is encouraging.

[Laser Show]

Ciriaco is plummeting back to earth. He's just not that good.

Iglesias will probably be Rey Ordonez 2.0

[Behindenemylines]

If Bogaerts shows he can play SS at AAA next year, then Iglesias will not be the future at SS. You will probably see him in Boston in 2014. If next year is a bridge year then they give Bogaerts the year at AAA.

[rhfil]

"Ciriaco is plummeting back to earth. He's just not that good." Check the numbers. He has not plummetted any more than the rest of the team. Meanwhile his numbers offensively and defensively for the left side of the infield are pretty close to anyone else who has played there for the Sox this year. His fielding percentages may not be as good but they are not bad and his hitting is the best. He needs more bat discipline but he is still young.

[Spitball]

The Sox have to be leery of the "Darnell McDonald Mirage" when it comes to Ciriaco. He has done well so far, but his minor league numbers tell us he won't keep producing at that level. Iglesias has put up better offensive and defensive numbers in the minor leagues.

[jimbob728]

[QUOTE=Palodios;801538]No.


I stand corrected. I figured the rule was universal since high schools around here just DH the shittiest hitter. I thought they adopted the MLB rule. Thanks for the lesson, it doesn't hurt to learn something new every day.

[SCM33]

"Ciriaco is plummeting back to earth. He's just not that good." Check the numbers. He has not plummetted any more than the rest of the team. Meanwhile his numbers offensively and defensively for the left side of the infield are pretty close to anyone else who has played there for the Sox this year. His fielding percentages may not be as good but they are not bad and his hitting is the best. He needs more bat discipline but he is still young.

Ciriaco is plummeting, because he isnt that good. Hes a backup who got hot. If he or Iglesias are starting anywhere for this team next year. They have big time isses.

[SoxSport]

There isn't enough data to support most of the observations here. Both Iggy and Ciriaco need much more playing time--probably more than one season--to see what they can do.

The Red Sox are paying Iggy $2.5million per season. Too bad they wasted most of it this year--but the FO stubbornly saw the team as a playoff contender, and kept the kids under wraps in AAA. Perhaps an early souce of frustration with Valentine.

[jung]

The fact that the are not playing more is driving me crazy. They are not winning games at a more than 1:4 pace anyway. Just play these guys as much as possible and see what you have.

[a700hitter]

The fact that the are not playing more is driving me crazy. They are not winning games at a more than 1:4 pace anyway. Just play these guys as much as possible and see what you have.It is baffling. Maybe they are afraid of exposing him.:dunno:

[SCM33]

Ciriaco is plummeting back to earth. He's just not that good.

Iglesias will probably be Rey Ordonez 2.0

He will be lucky to hit at Rey Ordonez's level.

[Behindenemylines]

Iglesias can't hit. He hasn't hit at any level in the minors. If he could hit at least at Rey Ordonez level you could take a chance with him. Can you win with a SS who is basically an automatic out in your lineup.

[jung]

V is just going to far now. He has just pulled Iggy from the top of the 7th inning of the Sunday Jays game with two outs and a 2-2 count on Iggy and pinch hit Nava at that point, with the 2-2 count. Ciriaco had just stolen 2nd so had moved into scoring position.

However these games are meaningless. I actually think V just did himself more harm than good. Pulling Iggy at that point was idiotic. Nava immediately ground out to end the inning.

[Taz]

Very strange move...

Out of interest, does that count as an at-bat for Iggy or Nava... or both?

[Elktonnick]

V is just going to far now. He has just pulled Iggy from the top of the 7th inning of the Sunday Jays game with two outs and a 2-2 count on Iggy and pinch hit Nava at that point, with the 2-2 count. Ciriaco had just stolen 2nd so had moved into scoring position.

However these games are meaningless. I actually think V just did himself more harm than good. Pulling Iggy at that point was idiotic. Nava immediately ground out to end the inning.

BV was just making the point that everyone knows Iggy can't hit major league pitching. There is no point sugar coating it. No one does the kid any favors. He does not belong in the bigs yet. If this weren't September and the Sox weren't out of it, he wouldn't nor shouldn't be here.

[Station 13]

WTF, did that seriously happened? He took Iggy out in the middle of an AB?

[jung]

He took Iggy out in the middle of an at bat. It does matter if Iggy should be here or not. September call ups are rarely guys that should be "be here". If they should be here, they would be already.

There was no point to make. Even if Nava got a hit there, which he did not, the Sox were better off in this lost season allowing Iggy to complete the at bat than pulling him in the middle of it. Pulling Iggy in the middle of it, did nothing positive for the Sox and might contribute to any number of things that are not positives for the Sox as an organization. We would even argue that winning this specific game would do nothing positive for the Sox.

Even Salty came up behind Iggy sitting in front of V and gave him a pat on the back, knowing Iggy would have difficulty with such an odd move. He can't hit, at least not yet...big deal...like we can't see that?

Moves like this are the downside to keeping V around when it would appear impossible to bring him back next year.

[Elktonnick]

He took Iggy out in the middle of an at bat. It does matter if Iggy should be here or not. September call ups are rarely guys that should be "be here". If they should be here, they would be already.

There was no point to make. Even if Nava got a hit there, which he did not, the Sox were better off in this lost season allowing Iggy to complete the at bat than pulling him in the middle of it. Pulling Iggy in the middle of it, did nothing positive for the Sox and might contribute to any number of things that are not positives for the Sox as an organization. We would even argue that winning this specific game would do nothing positive for the Sox.

Even Salty came up behind Iggy sitting in front of V and gave him a pat on the back, knowing Iggy would have difficulty with such an odd move. He can't hit, at least not yet...big deal...like we can't see that?

Moves like this are the downside to keeping V around when it would appear impossible to bring him back next year.

There is no point to Iggy being here. He sucks at the plate. BV just in a very harsh way gave the kid the facts of life. That's why it is called hardball. He is regressing by facing big league pitching even in September. He needs at bats but not here.

[Behindenemylines]

I hope the Sox have a Plan B for SS next season. Iglesias is a no-hit good glove player. He hasn't hit at any level, and doesn't show anything that leads to believe he is going to. Maybe he can be used as a chip to get a SP. With that said BV didn't do any good to the kids confidence in what he did. This was a meaningless game, and what is proved by this move other then kicking the kid when he is down.

[a700hitter]

There is no point to Iggy being here. He sucks at the plate. BV just in a very harsh way gave the kid the facts of life. That's why it is called hardball. He is regressing by facing big league pitching even in September. He needs at bats but not here.The kid is playing himself right out of prospect status. Ciriaco has acquitted himself well. Plus, in limited appearance he has 14 SBs with 0 CS in 60 games. He'll have a roster spot in 2013 whether or not he is the starting SS. Iglesias? Who knows.

[Behindenemylines]

I think there is plan to have Ciriaco play some outfield this winter. If he comes back with that tool he can be a very effective super sub. Can play 2B, SS, 3B, and give some speed to the lineup. I think he is one of the positives to a terrible summer.

[jung]

Iggy is playing himself out of consideration at SS for the Red Sox. That does not excuse V for what was a stupid move. More V being V I believe. Regardless of whether Iggy has a future with the Sox he is a Sox property at this point and screwing with a Sox property won't endear V to ownership. I suspect V knows he is done after this year.

Although if he keeps this shit up, I would not be surprised to see them wait till the last week of the season and then can him....just to make the point because V does not belong here either.

[Behindenemylines]

Between the worst September roster comment to the media and the reoving Iggy in the middle of an AB I think that BV has lost the support of any in the Nation who still supported him. It just adds to the crazy things that have happened in 2012.

[rhfil]

I wonder who scouted Iglesias? What could he have possibly seen to justify paying him as much money as they did? From Magadan"s comments it is obvious the kid has no idea what he is doing up at the plate.
I thought BV should be given a chance to return in 2013 to finish work teaching fundamentals to the players but he just will not learn to shut up. And removing Iglesias to give Lester some runs was really the limit.

[SoxSport]

Iggy is making $2.5 mil per year right now, and they sure as hell better give him a real chance to play SS, or they are flushing a lot of money down the drain. The kid has played well enough in AAA. What's needed is a little patience. He's a great fielder at a defensive position, SS. He needs the kind of patience that made Ozzie Smith a great player.

The guy they need to unload is Loney. Good field, no-hit first baseman are useless.

[jung]

Problem is that the next SS in the Sox system is barking right up Iggy's butt right now and threatening to pass him by. So patience may just not be in the cards for Iggy.

Even before this year started I have said all along that Iggy will not see meaningful time in a Red Sox uniform and I really like the guy. I think he will be traded.

[rjortiz]

Ciraco sucks. He has the worst approach of any hitter in major league baseball

[a700hitter]

Ciraco sucks. He has the worst approach of any hitter in major league baseballI think that is a huge overstatement. Yes, he needs to be more patient at the plate, but it is hard to make such a claim about a guy who gets the barrel of the bat to the ball as often as Ciriaco does.

[jopete19]

I like Ciraco. He is clutch and we need that. Nice little surprise for us this season. But I do like Aviles at SS. Or an utility guy.

[jung]

Ciriaco is an interesting case. He is really a very good fielder but since he has been moved around quite a bit it seems that he is not quite solid enough in any one spot while maybe being one of the best multi-position, utility infielders anybody ever heard of. Very rare for a guy to look totally competent for a few games at least at three infield positions. Ciriaco is a little weak at 3rd but can look very comfortable for short stints at 2nd and SS and can play 3rd as well.

As for his hitting, it would just be hard to trust him up in the lineup. He does not walk at all, prone to K and prone to chase pitches that don't even begin to look like they are going to be strikes.

I would think he would be a terrific bottom of the order hitter, batting 7th or 8th, maybe 9th, capable of stinging the opposition and having enough speed to allow the Manager to turn him loose. You can already see what happens with speed guys at the top of the order when the Manager believes he has a heavy hitting lineup. The speed guys basically stay pinned to their bases waiting for the heavy hitters to drive them around.

If the Sox had a really strong lineup I would love to see him bat 8th and play SS possibly platooning at SS in 2013. If he were to platoon at SS he would also be a utility infielder for the Sox. I could also see the Sox giving him the SS position for 2013 if the alternative were Aviles.

Unfortunately I think Iggy is going to get passed over. I have thought that all year as much as I hate to see it happen because I really like him. Iggy really needed to step up and show that he could be the guy for 2013 and that has just not happened. By the time 2014 rolls around, then the Sox may not be able to wait longer and Iggy might be traded at that point.

[rjortiz]

I think that is a huge overstatement. Yes, he needs to be more patient at the plate, but it is hard to make such a claim about a guy who gets the barrel of the bat to the ball as often as Ciriaco does.

I mean, he swings at pitches out of the zone, but takes pitches over the plate more than any other hitter. I think there is a reason his numbers are so low over his minor league career.

[jacksonianmarch]

You gotta let him sink or swim for the next 2 weeks. If he continues to hit .061, then you probably have to let him play in AAA next yr. You need a guy who can hit at least .240 playing SS when there is no other discernable offensive skill in the set. You'd almost be better off DH'ing for him and letting the pitchers hit

[a700hitter]

You gotta let him sink or swim for the next 2 weeks. If he continues to hit .061, then you probably have to let him play in AAA next yr. You need a guy who can hit at least .240 playing SS when there is no other discernable offensive skill in the set. You'd almost be better off DH'ing for him and letting the pitchers hitHe may be worse than Greg Grebeck, the worst offensive player that I have seen in a Red Sox uniform.

[jung]

As for Iggy he would have to at least have a "2" be the first digit of his BA and then maybe another "2" a the second MIGHT be OK but having seen him for a couple of weeks now, I no longer am confident he can get there. They should give Iggy the whole rest of the season to see if he can improve. He has improved a bit but I think there are some basic problems here that that the Sox must see and I can only guess have not been able to work out.

Iggy is a slap hitter. He hits like a guy that has played with the older style metal bats his entire life, the ones that allowed you to sting the ball just by slapping at it with the bat. I have to believe that they have either tried to get him to develop a normal swing or have tried to beef him up so that he can survive on that slap swing but if they have not been trying one or the other or have failed in both cases, I don't know what they do with him now.

Iggy does not appear to be able to handle the bat well either. So he does not generate any sacrifices, even via the bunt and he does not walk very much.

I just don't know what you do with that. I had not watched him play in AAA this year but I had figured they were trying to do something to get his offensive numbers up to something acceptable. If they have been, it appears to me that it has all gone for naught or has gone for very little.

I have seen Iggy get a fly ball to the middle outfield depth one time in his 40-50 or so at bats. He is barely able to get the ball out of the infield. So I am happy to see the Sox give Iggy the rest of the season but unless something remarkable happens, I don't see him penciled into SS for 2013.

Going on a year now I have offered that i do not believe Iggy will see meaningful time in a Sox uniform and as much as I like him, I still think that is true. I think they will end up trading him to the NL somewhere. As for the $10M they have spent on him, it appears they either screwed up again or somebody should have been working much more diligently to turn him into a ML hitter.

[SCM33]

He may be worse than Greg Grebeck, the worst offensive player that I have seen in a Red Sox uniform.

The kid has zero shot of ever being productive. Zero.

Ive said the same thing from day one. If they can get him to a Rey Ordonez level, at this point...they will have struck gold. I just dont see it.

[Laser Show]

You gotta let him sink or swim for the next 2 weeks. If he continues to hit .061, then you probably have to let him play in AAA next yr. You need a guy who can hit at least .240 playing SS when there is no other discernable offensive skill in the set. You'd almost be better off DH'ing for him and letting the pitchers hit

It doesn't work like that. If he's at SS, he hits, plain and simple. The DH can only be used to take the bat out of the pitchers hands.

[RedSoxNC84]

It's such a shame this kid has such good defense, he just can't hit for shit. Can we please just get him above the Mendoza line so he can stay?

[a700hitter]

It doesn't work like that. If he's at SS, he hits, plain and simple. The DH can only be used to take the bat out of the pitchers hands.Technically, I thought the rule allowed you to DH for anyone-- that it was not limited to pitchers.

[Laser Show]

Technically, I thought the rule allowed you to DH for anyone-- that it was not limited to pitchers.


MLB Rule 6.10(b)

A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game. A Designated Hitter for the pitcher must be selected prior to the game and must be included in the lineup cards presented to the Umpire in Chief.

The designated hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing club changes pitchers.

It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.

Pinch hitters for a Designated Hitter may be used. Any substitute hitter for a Designated Hitter becomes the Designated Hitter. A replaced Designated Hitter shall not re-enter the game in any capacity.

The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.

A runner may be substituted for the Designated Hitter and the runner assumes the role of Designated Hitter. A Designated Hitter may not pinch run.

A Designated Hitter is "locked" into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter.

Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. (The game pitcher may only pinch-hit for the Designated Hitter.)

Once a Designated Hitter assumes a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. A substitute for the Designated Hitter need not be announced until it is the Designated Hitter's turn to bat.

The DH rule is specifically for pitchers

[a700hitter]

The DH rule is specifically for pitchersThanks for the rule. I must have gotten confused with some softball league rules.

[mvp 78]

The kid has zero shot of ever being productive. Zero.

Ive said the same thing from day one. If they can get him to a Rey Ordonez level, at this point...they will have struck gold. I just dont see it.

He's 22. Ordonez was 25 when he made it to the bigs. He's got time.

[Brennan]

Still don't get the Aviles love. If you're willing to settle for that at S.S and finally just give up on getting an MLB level shortstop then I guess you are a fan of mediocrity. Don't show me his offensive stats to make your case, he got hot with the bat for awhile pre Allstar break but hasn't done shit since. Face it, the Royals had no use for him.

[v2freak]

What do you guys think about Aviles... I think he has does a really good job this year at SS. A nice surprise!

His offense is okay. He hit better last year when he didn't have to play everyday so honestly, he may just have to be a platoon guy. I think he'd be more valuable at third though.

[redsoxrules]

Still don't get the Aviles love. If you're willing to settle for that at S.S and finally just give up on getting an MLB level shortstop then I guess you are a fan of mediocrity. Don't show me his offensive stats to make your case, he got hot with the bat for awhile pre Allstar break but hasn't done shit since. Face it, the Royals had no use for him.

I don't get the Iglesias love .
At this point Aviles is the better option and its not even close.

The worst part about Iglesias bat is that he's hitting nothing hard at all .
It's not like he's tearing the cover off the ball and just being unlucky and its getting caught. Everything he puts the bat on and connects is weak .

[v2freak]

He has 2 of Boston's 7 hits so far tonight

[jung]

Damn...I wish I had seen that. Was not even able to listen on radio to much tonight and just got home. What kinds of hits were they....seeing eye variety....anything driven hard?

[Station 13]

Damn...I wish I had seen that. Was not even able to listen on radio to much tonight and just got home. What kinds of hits were they....seeing eye variety....anything driven hard?

grounder up the middle, infield hit to short.

Just cheapies. He has like 5 XBH in AAA or something.

[Palodios]

grounder up the middle, infield hit to short.

Just cheapies. He has like 5 XBH in AAA or something.


It's not like he's tearing the cover off the ball and just being unlucky and its getting caught. Everything he puts the bat on and connects is weak .

Welcome to 2009.

[Laser Show]

grounder up the middle, infield hit to short.

Just cheapies. He has like 5 XBH in AAA or something.

And a towering blast in the 9th!

[jung]

The HR is one of the very few times I have seen Iggy actually shift his weight and turn on the pitch.

Now V has got to leave Iggy in the lineup and see if he can build on this. Not saying he needs to or even can suddenly become a "hitter" but if he just even can somehow not be taking that stupid, weak-assed, defensive slap swing at the ball, that will be a massive improvement by itself.

Still bunt's like shit which is tough to see from a guy that hits like he does.

[RedSoxNC84]

I'd take Iglesias and his absolutely atrocious hitting over Aviles and his barely more than mediocre hitting.

[jung]

Atrocious is one thing but Iggy has exhibited a tendency to be completely overpowered and that is just to far downstream to be acceptable.

To be honest I just wish V had not been playing him once every three days or every other day when he did have him in the lineup. The season was already long gone and Iggy really needed to be in there every day I think. That decision to pinch hit for him on a 2-2 count looks doubly foolish today although it already looked about as bad as it could look when V did it.

I would be happy to see him toss in a few base hits, a successful sacrifice or two and just look like he is not being overpowered so easily out the season. If he can do that we might have something.

[a700hitter]

I'd take Iglesias and his absolutely atrocious hitting over Aviles and his barely more than mediocre hitting.Scutaro is better than both of them. He's like Pujols compared to Iggy.

[cbbosox]

the mendoza line is a sub .200 average- maybe we will the iglesias line at sub .100

what a downer -the Sox two big prospects Lavarnway and Iglesias both can't hit.

[Station 13]

I'd take Iglesias and his absolutely atrocious hitting over Aviles and his barely more than mediocre hitting.

?

Aviles defense is pretty good.

[Laser Show]

Scutaro is better than both of them. He's like Pujols compared to Iggy.

Scutaro is alright, but he's been even worse this season than he was last year. People overlook the horrible 1st half he had with Colorado. What he's doing in SF is absolutely not an indicator of future success. I'd still rather have Iggy in the every day lineup. Omar Vizquel had a .534 OPS in his age 22 season, which was his first. Iglesias has a .514 OPS so far in limited time. Why is everyone giving up on him when he has plenty of room to grow?


the mendoza line is a sub .200 average- maybe we will the iglesias line at sub .100

what a downer -the Sox two big prospects Lavarnway and Iglesias both can't hit.

And they're both very young with very little experience. Not everyone comes up and hits like a Mike Trout or Alex Rodriguez. Rookies often struggle.

[a700hitter]

Scutaro is alright, but he's been even worse this season than he was last year. People overlook the horrible 1st half he had with Colorado. What he's doing in SF is absolutely not an indicator of future success. I'd still rather have Iggy in the every day lineup. Omar Vizquel had a .534 OPS in his age 22 season, which was his first. Iglesias has a .514 OPS so far in limited time. Why is everyone giving up on him when he has plenty of room to grow?



And they're both very young with very little experience. Not everyone comes up and hits like a Mike Trout or Alex Rodriguez. Rookies often struggle.So Scutaro's full season of production in 2012 that is in line with his production since 2009 is not as good an indicator as his partial season at Colorado? If that is what you are saying, it makes no sense.

[SoxSport]

Too much emphasis on Iggy's hitting. Leave it alone. Same with Lav. Takes awhile to get in gear when you move up a league. It's not that they have Tulo or Johnny Bench waiting in the wings. Same deal with this guy Gomez, who keeps hitting when he plays. They should stick him at 1b and see what he does. Loney is a banjo hitter. So is Aviles, for that matter. OBP below .300. Not a regular on a good team. Nothing to lose on both counts.

[Dojji]

So Scutaro's full season of production in 2012 that is in line with his production since 2009 is not as good an indicator as his partial season at Colorado? If that is what you are saying, it makes no sense.

The last time I heard that argument used to defend a Red Sox shortstop, it was being used to justify the acquisition of Julio Lugo.

Players who are inconsistent in the NL West have no business in Boston. That's just the facts.

[a700hitter]

The last time I heard that argument used to defend a Red Sox shortstop, it was being used to justify the acquisition of Julio Lugo.

Players who are inconsistent in the NL West have no business in Boston. That's just the facts.He had been in Boston and the results had been pretty consistent with this year's product. No one is talking about getting him back.

Edit: He had comparable production while playing for Toronto too, or doesn't Canada count.

[Laser Show]

He had comparable production while playing for Toronto too, or doesn't Canada count.

Did you remember to convert from metric to imperial?

[jung]

Lavs at least swings like like a professional hitter and we know he can hit and I think he will hit not only to an acceptable level but to a much more than acceptable level.

The mistake the Sox made with Iggy is not giving him enough at bats up here this season so that they actually, finally see what they have. This is the last year of his deal so it would have certainly been to their benefit to figure it out this year particularly since this year died pretty early.

The Sox might have done some things the last few days to convince Iggy that he is literally playing himself out of a position and I don't mean sitting him for a pinch hitter with a 2-2 count. That was just plain stupid. They might have had him looking at some film....who knows. The swings he was taking in the last of the Rays games was not the swing he has been taking for the last few weeks up here.

Last night's were the best swings Iggy has taken while up here by a wide margin. It was also the second of two straight nights that he has exhibited some knowledge for the location of the outer edge of the plate.

They should have brought Iggy here sooner and once here should have had him in every game. He MUST play every game out the year. However if he continues to hit as weakly as he has hit up till last night and continues to employ that slap hitting style, then that would be pretty tough to take.

Really interested in seeing if Iggy carries last night's success forward at least to the extent of not taking that damn defensive swing.

[Palodios]

The last time I heard that argument used to defend a Red Sox shortstop, it was being used to justify the acquisition of Julio Lugo.

Players who are inconsistent in the NL West have no business in Boston. That's just the facts.

Facts? The fact is that he was an above average shortstop when he was here. That's all I need.

[lospunchados]

Lavs at least swings like like a professional hitter and we know he can hit and I think he will hit not only to an acceptable level but to a much more than acceptable level.

The mistake the Sox made with Iggy is not giving him enough at bats up here this season so that they actually, finally see what they have. This is the last year of his deal so it would have certainly been to their benefit to figure it out this year particularly since this year died pretty early.

The Sox might have done some things the last few days to convince Iggy that he is literally playing himself out of a position and I don't mean sitting him for a pinch hitter with a 2-2 count. That was just plain stupid. They might have had him looking at some film....who knows. The swings he was taking in the last of the Rays games was not the swing he has been taking for the last few weeks up here.

Last night's were the best swings Iggy has taken while up here by a wide margin. It was also the second of two straight nights that he has exhibited some knowledge for the location of the outer edge of the plate.

They should have brought Iggy here sooner and once here should have had him in every game. He MUST play every game out the year. However if he continues to hit as weakly as he has hit up till last night and continues to employ that slap hitting style, then that would be pretty tough to take.

Really interested in seeing if Iggy carries last night's success forward at least to the extent of not taking that damn defensive swing.



He is still under contract for next year.

[Behindenemylines]

At some point he needs to hit. The glove is a given, but you still need to be a threat in the lineup. In the perfect world he would be a .280 hitter. I could live with a .240 to .250 hitter if you know you get that D.

[rhfil]

Pawtucket coaches need to stress fundamentals with their young players. They need to create more plate discipline and the ability to sacrifice bunt. Red Sox used to have great plate discipline. Now very few of them have it. Pedroia, Ellsbury and Ortiz are pretty much the exception. Ross and Saltalamachia suck at it.

[Behindenemylines]

Even though they don't have the great plate discipline with this 2012 team they are still one of the higher scoring teams in the league. A return to the approach of all the hitters being disciplined will go along way in fixing this mess. Players who don't fit that approach aren't needed in Boston.

[v2freak]

Even though they don't have the great plate discipline with this 2012 team they are still one of the higher scoring teams in the league. A return to the approach of all the hitters being disciplined will go along way in fixing this mess. Players who don't fit that approach aren't needed in Boston.

Are the Red Sox still a high scoring team? They went through that awful stretch where they couldn't seem to score more than 2 runs a game. Ortiz and Middlebrooks' injuries have also hurt substantially. Every once in a while, they'll have a high scoring game like that 8 run game against Toronto recently, but for the most part, they'll losing games 4-2 or something.

[mvp 78]

Pawtucket coaches need to stress fundamentals with their young players. They need to create more plate discipline and the ability to sacrifice bunt. Red Sox used to have great plate discipline. Now very few of them have it. Pedroia, Ellsbury and Ortiz are pretty much the exception. Ross and Saltalamachia suck at it.

How much time did Ross and Salty play at Pawtucket?

[jung]

Sox have fallen from 2nd in runs scored, behind Texas and the position they held most of the season to 6th in runs scored, now trailing Brewers, NYY, Angels and Cards

[jung]

You are right.....he does have one more year left...thought they signed that deal one year earlier than they did. They can option him next season as well. He has the one more option year remaining.

[SoxSport]

They ought to bring their AAA manager, Beyeler, in to manage the Sox next year. I see he's already joined the Red Sox coaching staff for the rest of this year. Good move. He knows all those young players, and has had a hand in developing them with some success. If they want to get the most out of Iggy, Beyeler is the guy to do it. I'd like to see Gomez get a shot, too. Looks like he can hit at the ML level.

[example1]

It's really too bad Iglesias' bat is so damn bad. His glove is so damn good.

[cbbosox]

Big question for me is who is a worse hitter Iglesias or Lavarnway

[redsoxrules]

Big question for me is who is a worse hitter Iglesias or Lavarnway

Are you serious ?

[Behindenemylines]

Remember what Pedroia did early on. Lavarnway has a track record of hitting so I have hope. Iglesias I am a little concerned about. He is never going to be a .300 hitter, but what can we live with if he plays the special D. .230 - .250 range?

[Station 13]

Lavarnway will hit. He's a catcher, they take a while longer. Blocking 75 pitches from Lester takes him out.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lavarnway is a weird case. He goes from being an absolute bomber for his whole MiLB career and a butcher behind the dish, to a solid average defensive catcher and a guy who loses his power. His AVG and OBP are nearly identical to a year ago, but he drops down to 8 homers in the minors and loses 130 points of OPS. Very strange. Regardless, the sox are learning that deficient defensive catchers kill them on the mound. Salty is abysmal. Lavs is a lot better defensively. If Lavs can figure out how to catch 130 games or so and still have the energy in the batters box to whack the ball over the monster, then they will have something. But even if he is adequate defensively and can his .290 with minimal power and a .350+OBP, he will be a humongous improvement. Based on what I have seen defensively, you dont have a choice for next yr. And if you think Salty will be better offensively by not catching 120 times a year, then you relegate him to DH or 1B, have him catch 30 games, stick with Lavs at catcher and let Papi walk. 2013 will not be a banner yr in Boston without massive changes. And if they can see Salty hit to an .800+OPS with 30HR when pulled from the catcher spot and Lavs can man the C spot well while not being abysmal at the dish, then they upgrade without making any acquisitions

[jacksonianmarch]

Also, with Iglesias, you have to see what he is. 2013 is a big year to determine the direction of the team. If you delay with Iggy, you might end up having to move him and watch him blossom elsewhere. I have a weird scenario for you. Why not keep Ciriaco as the super utility guy, hand the job to Iggy and if he cannot handle it, swap them.

[Dojji]

I'd be willing to put up with virtually nothing from the shortstop position with that kind of glove, in the hopes that with time the bat will move up in the general direction of at-least-he's-better-than-a-pitcher. We haven't had a guy who can play SS like that in a very, very long time. Bearing in mind that we have Bogaerts to fall back on if the bat is too bad, I think it'd work out pretty well.

[lospunchados]

I'd be willing to put up with virtually nothing from the shortstop position with that kind of glove, in the hopes that with time the bat will move up in the general direction of at-least-he's-better-than-a-pitcher. We haven't had a guy who can play SS like that in a very, very long time. Bearing in mind that we have Bogaerts to fall back on if the bat is too bad, I think it'd work out pretty well.

If that is the plan going forward then the Front office better sign or resign a couple of bats, because we need more offense to have a guy hitting that poorly at the end of the lineup.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'd be willing to put up with virtually nothing from the shortstop position with that kind of glove, in the hopes that with time the bat will move up in the general direction of at-least-he's-better-than-a-pitcher. We haven't had a guy who can play SS like that in a very, very long time. Bearing in mind that we have Bogaerts to fall back on if the bat is too bad, I think it'd work out pretty well.

If he brings a .200BA with no power or OBP, then your team will sink. You dont have the lineup of even a year ago, and with Papi being a FA, you could be dealing with a pretty thin lineup and contributions from 1-9 will be needed to win it all. 2-3 yrs ago, you could punt a spot in the order. In 2013, you need production. Now, you dont need .320/.400/.600 production, but you will need a guy who can reach base 30% of the time and not K every 4th AB

[Behindenemylines]

If you have Iggy and Peddy up the middle that is pretty solid defensely. If they pick up some bats for the outfield they could live with a no hit SS. Remember Omar Vizquel when he first came up he struggled with the bat. He did become a better hitter later in his career, but the glove was always there. It would be great if that is what happens with Iggy.

[SoxSport]

It will take a couple of years for the young players to get their confidence levels and abilities up to major league levels, and you have to give them a chance and see what they can do. The Red Sox have not given younger players enough opportunities recently, and what's needed is to play these guys and give them some experience to bolster their confidence. That means patience, and no rushes to judgement after 20 games.

[rjortiz]

If he brings a .200BA with no power or OBP, then your team will sink. You dont have the lineup of even a year ago, and with Papi being a FA, you could be dealing with a pretty thin lineup and contributions from 1-9 will be needed to win it all. 2-3 yrs ago, you could punt a spot in the order. In 2013, you need production. Now, you dont need .320/.400/.600 production, but you will need a guy who can reach base 30% of the time and not K every 4th AB

Are you serious? One guy hitting .200 will sink the team? He's going to add some value with his glove.

Look at Darwin Barney. He's not a good hitter, but he's a 2-3 WAR player because of how talented a defender he is.

If the Red Sox team is this bad next year, it will be because they had no starting pitching for the third consecutive year, and that they had another year with lots of days spent on the DL.

[SCM33]

I'd be willing to put up with virtually nothing from the shortstop position with that kind of glove, in the hopes that with time the bat will move up in the general direction of at-least-he's-better-than-a-pitcher. We haven't had a guy who can play SS like that in a very, very long time. Bearing in mind that we have Bogaerts to fall back on if the bat is too bad, I think it'd work out pretty well.

Absolutely not.

He is a high school caliber offensive player. Its a joke how bad he is offensively.

[cbbosox]

Are you serious ?

well not really but how many more times is Lavarnway going to hit a weak ground ball or pop up off the handle?
Add both their averages together and they are barely at .300

[jung]

Well I know I have expressed some concerns for Lavs hitting. I keep waiting for him to break out and he almost looks like he was about to break out the end of last week and then...not so much.

However I still believe in Lavs. I think he will hit and deserves more time given the fact that he has in fact hit.

[Behindenemylines]

If the Sox go with the youth movement Iggy will be the SS some time next season before June. If they are going for a quick rebuild with short cost effective contracts then he may spend more time at AAA unless he starts producing with the bat.

[rjortiz]

If he can OPS .600, he should start at SS. He's had to have taken away at least 10 hits this month.

[SoxSport]

They can tolerate a weak hitting, slick fielder at SS--but not at 1B. The corner positions require a hitter with power. That means they should pass on Loney, who can't hit. Gomez is the guy who deserves a serious look. He made a good defensive play last night. Also, LeHair is available from the Cubs as a possible platoon with Gomez.

[jung]

Iggy does not get enough chances to rob 10 hits in a month but his fielding has been predictably outstanding. That play he made here in the last home game was magical.

[Station 13]

Start him in AAA.

[DocHolliday]

If he is ever going to be able to improve his approach, he's going to do it against major league pitching. It would do him a world of good to refine his approach in some sort of instructional league this winter to get a head start in the spring. His struggles have been well documented, but they seem to have been enhanced by the overall weak offense on this team as the 2012 season has winded down.

If they are able to improve next season's offense in other positions on the field, they can afford to let Iggy play out the majority of the season at short until Xander is ready.

[SCM33]

If he can OPS .600, he should start at SS. He's had to have taken away at least 10 hits this month.

Rey Ordonez was a career .600 OPS hitter on the dot.

Hes not even close.

[rjortiz]

Rey Ordonez was a career .600 OPS hitter on the dot.

Hes not even close.

Iglesias is a better defensive SS than Ordonez was.

[a700hitter]

Iglesias is a better defensive SS than Ordonez was.Ordonez was pretty slick with the glove. I don't know how you have come to this conclusion.

[rjortiz]

Ordonez was pretty slick with the glove. I don't know how you have come to this conclusion.

I've never seen Ordonez make that lob toss that Iglesias made last night. No other SS in all of baseball makes that play.

.600 OPS is an exaggeration, but there's a lot of value in that glove.

[jacksonianmarch]

No other SS in all of baseball can make that play? Take his dick out of your mouth for a second and re-read what you wrote. Cause it's pretty lame

[Spitball]

I've never seen Ordonez make that lob toss that Iglesias made last night. No other SS in all of baseball makes that play.

.600 OPS is an exaggeration, but there's a lot of value in that glove.

There are facts, reasoned judgements, and opinions. This statement you have made is an opinion, but I'm not really sure if you watched enough of Rey Ordonez to base it on anything besides your own bias.

Here is a video of Ordonez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzt9_cmHWVY

[SoxFanForsyth]

No other SS in all of baseball can make that play? Take his dick out of your mouth for a second and re-read what you wrote. Cause it's pretty lame

Given there's some hyperbole in his comment, it was still an absolutely ridiculous play, and in terms of current SS, I'm not sure another one makes that play, especially when you consider that a large portion of them don't even get to that ball. His throw was 100% perfect, too.

[rjortiz]

No other SS in all of baseball can make that play? Take his dick out of your mouth for a second and re-read what you wrote. Cause it's pretty lame

Haha, someone's mad. If I wrote HOMEGROWN next to Iglesias, would it be less lame?

[rjortiz]

There are facts, reasoned judgements, and opinions. This statement you have made is an opinion, but I'm not really sure if you watched enough of Rey Ordonez to base it on anything besides your own bias.

Here is a video of Ordonez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzt9_cmHWVY

Haha, you're right. I see a lot of Ozzie Smith in him, but I'm probably guilty of wishful thinking.

[example1]

That highlight reel of Ordonez is impressive. Iglesias, in a very short time, has produced a few jaw-dropping plays too. If he plays in the league for 10 years that would be probably 1300 games. In that time there will be hundreds of astounding plays. People who have watched him in the minors (including the AAA manager) say that he makes about a highlight play per-night, plays that very few players could make.


Unrelated question:
Has a team ever aimed to maximize a player's defense by moving him where the ball is most likely to go? In other words, switch a SS and 2B back and forth based on left or right handedness of the batter? I realize the answer is probably no, and I can think of many reasons why (familiarity of position, skill-sets of SS vs 2B, etc.,).

However, wouldn't a player like Iglesias touching the ball as often as possible make a noticeable difference over your average 2B?

[rjortiz]

I'm guessing Joe Maddon if anyone at all.

[Dojji]

There's different ways you have to read the ball at short or second. I wouldn't mind seeing it tried, but I suspect there'd be some hidden disadvantages.

[Behindenemylines]

Jeter (homegrown) wouldn't have gotten that ball the other night that Iggy got because he would be DHing.

[SoxSport]

Good story on Iggy by Cafardo this morning:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2012/09/30/iglesias-thinks-can-handle-chance/U47J82semlai8dMvlM10PN/story-1.html

Nick says the Sox made a mistake not playing Iggy at SS the whole season. His defensive skills are special, and they should have let the offense come with experience. This is especially true when you consider they were paying him $2.5 million. He is fair enough to Aviles, saying he had a good year playing decent SS. But one scout says Iggy is special defensively--maybe the best, and belongs starting in the big leagues.

Which brings the argument to what may be the real problem with the Red Sox--the Front Office. Their judgement has sucked this year, and they have flown under the media radar, thanks to Bobby V's big mouth. Cherington appeared to be in over his head, based on a lot of questionable decisions this year.
Maybe Henry's hiring of James, Tek and a few other "assistants" is an admission of this. But this won't fix the dysfunction and turf clashes in the organization-- Henry has to recognize he needs a VP-Team Ops to assume a leadership role, to oversee the team functions, before this team can go anywhere. And that clearly should not be Lucchino.

[a700hitter]

Good story on Iggy by Cafardo this morning:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2012/09/30/iglesias-thinks-can-handle-chance/U47J82semlai8dMvlM10PN/story-1.html

Nick says the Sox made a mistake not playing Iggy at SS the whole season. His defensive skills are special, and they should have let the offense come with experience. This is especially true when you consider they were paying him $2.5 million. He is fair enough to Aviles, saying he had a good year playing decent SS. But one scout says Iggy is special defensively--maybe the best, and belongs starting in the big leagues.

Which brings the argument to what may be the real problem with the Red Sox--the Front Office. Their judgement has sucked this year, and they have flown under the media radar, thanks to Bobby V's big mouth. Cherington appeared to be in over his head, based on a lot of questionable decisions this year.
Maybe Henry's hiring of James, Tek and a few other "assistants" is an admission of this. But this won't fix the dysfunction and turf clashes in the organization-- Henry has to recognize he needs a VP-Team Ops to assume a leadership role, to oversee the team functions, before this team can go anywhere. And that clearly should not be Lucchino.Once it became apparent that this team would stink-- around the second week of April-- Iglesias should have been the full time SS, Aviles the utility guy and Punto DFA'd or traded. We would have had 140 games to see if he could develop and become at least adequate with the bat.

[Elktonnick]

Good story on Iggy by Cafardo this morning:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2012/09/30/iglesias-thinks-can-handle-chance/U47J82semlai8dMvlM10PN/story-1.html

Nick says the Sox made a mistake not playing Iggy at SS the whole season. His defensive skills are special, and they should have let the offense come with experience. This is especially true when you consider they were paying him $2.5 million. He is fair enough to Aviles, saying he had a good year playing decent SS. But one scout says Iggy is special defensively--maybe the best, and belongs starting in the big leagues.

Which brings the argument to what may be the real problem with the Red Sox--the Front Office. Their judgement has sucked this year, and they have flown under the media radar, thanks to Bobby V's big mouth. Cherington appeared to be in over his head, based on a lot of questionable decisions this year.
Maybe Henry's hiring of James, Tek and a few other "assistants" is an admission of this. But this won't fix the dysfunction and turf clashes in the organization-- Henry has to recognize he needs a VP-Team Ops to assume a leadership role, to oversee the team functions, before this team can go anywhere. And that clearly should not be Lucchino.

That has been my opinion for sometime. Remember BV wanted to play Iggy. Look I know there is a lot of blame to lay at BV's feet but his judgment of talent is not one of them. In that regard he was right and Cherrington was wrong. And an objective review will point to other such instances as well.

Given his track record, however, I have more faith in Lucchino's baseball judgment than Cherrington. That's not to say that Lucchino should have that role, he shouldn't. But I haven't seen anything that Cherrington has done that makes me believe he is qualified to hold his current position.

[Bellhorn04]

I've argued that there isn't enough info yet to judge Cherington on. But I would agree that he hasn't proven much either. The signs are in place that we might be seeing a 'GM by committee' approach.

[Elktonnick]

I've argued that there isn't enough info yet to judge Cherington on. But I would agree that he hasn't proven much either. The signs are in place that we might be seeing a 'GM by committee' approach.

Yes I agree that it appears Henry, Werner and Lucchino want the committee approach. One interesting note from Saturday's "Baseball Show" Buckley and Shaughnessy both opined that "they" ie Red Sox basbeball ops, really want Farrell as the next mgr. But in order to get Farrell, Larry Lucchino has to be the one to get it done with Toronto. They implied that Ben doesn't have the juice. I infer from those remarks that Cherrington is not seen by his peers has the guy who has the final say on anything when it comes baseball operations in Boston despite the title.

[a700hitter]

Yes I agree that it appears Henry, Werner and Lucchino want the committee approach. One interesting note from Saturday's "Baseball Show" Buckley and Shaughnessy both opined that "they" ie Red Sox basbeball ops, really want Farrell as the next mgr. But in order to get Farrell, Larry Lucchino has to be the one to get it done with Toronto. They implied that Ben doesn't have the juice. I infer from those remarks that Cherrington is not seen by his peers has the guy who has the final say on anything when it comes baseball operations in Boston despite the title.Farrell is not a good manager. He has the Blue Jays running the bases like blind-folded imbeciles for the last 2 seasons. It's been so bad that Omar Vizquel called out the entire coaching staff in this regard in an interview.

[Elktonnick]

Farrell is not a good manager. He has the Blue Jays running the bases like blind-folded imbeciles for the last 2 seasons. It's been so bad that Omar Vizquel called out the entire coaching staff in this regard in an interview.

I agree. I can't understand why anyone would want Farrell. If you look at what's going on up north, Toronto's clubhouse may be in worse shape than the Red Sox clubhouse.

[Station 13]

God no, please do not start him in Fenway in 2013. He is getting own every AB. Last night was the final when they let him hit without being pinch hit for.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I don't care how good his glove is, I'm not willing to let his terrible offense slide because of that. I'm not saying give up on the kid but damn he needs work on that bat.

[a700hitter]

The fact that Theo didn't have to rent an entire hotel and run a top secret operation to sign this guy should have been a big tip off that he was not good.

[jung]

The problem may well be that Iggy simply will not develop further at AAA. I tend to agree with that. Just looking at the way he has fought up to actually being able to get the ball to the outfield from where he began a few weeks ago is a good indication I think. He has at least fought out of that terrible hole he was in where he looked like a 12 year old up there trying to hit against men. So now what do you do?

Certainly as badly as the Sox played this year, getting Iggy up here to play would have made sense. This team was a disaster that was not going to win enough games to be relevant. You could see that pretty early on. We surely wanted to believe otherwise but that is fans thinking with their hearts.

Now the Sox are in a real pickle. I still think there are massive risks associated with trying to fix all of this in one off season. To many holes on this team I think and even a competent FO will make some mistakes trying to make this many changes. Remember, the O's are not where they are because they changed a good deal in one off season. If anything the changes they did not make were as important as those they did make. Maybe they can afford to have Iggy play SS next season. I suspect they think Xander is their real future at SS so it might not even be worth it at this point. This year was the year to do it if they were going to invest time in Iggy....if next year gives them the same opportunity that is going to probably disappoint many.

[Station 13]

He's 22, Youk was in the minors till his mid 20s and Youk is 500% better than Iggy. So there plenty left to learn.

[jung]

So there plenty left to learn.

I doubt there is more for Iggy to learn in the minors, especially with Xander breathing down his neck. He is not going to get to be a much bigger, stronger guy. He needs to learn how to survive here. I do think he is something of a special case in that he is a guy fully developed defensively at the most demanding defensive position in baseball. Youk was not a SS and Youk should not have been in the minor as long as he was for that matter.

Sox may catch a break. They are not the A's or the O's. I don't look at what those two teams have done as relevant to the Sox situation. They may get the time to give Iggy....may not....sure as hell had it this year...blunder number 20,468 on the list for this season.

[SCM33]

The problem may well be that Iggy simply will not develop further at AAA. I tend to agree with that. Just looking at the way he has fought up to actually being able to get the ball to the outfield from where he began a few weeks ago is a good indication I think. He has at least fought out of that terrible hole he was in where he looked like a 12 year old up there trying to hit against men. So now what do you do?

Certainly as badly as the Sox played this year, getting Iggy up here to play would have made sense. This team was a disaster that was not going to win enough games to be relevant. You could see that pretty early on. We surely wanted to believe otherwise but that is fans thinking with their hearts.

Now the Sox are in a real pickle. I still think there are massive risks associated with trying to fix all of this in one off season. To many holes on this team I think and even a competent FO will make some mistakes trying to make this many changes. Remember, the O's are not where they are because they changed a good deal in one off season. If anything the changes they did not make were as important as those they did make. Maybe they can afford to have Iggy play SS next season. I suspect they think Xander is their real future at SS so it might not even be worth it at this point. This year was the year to do it if they were going to invest time in Iggy....if next year gives them the same opportunity that is going to probably disappoint many.

They are in no pickle. He is what he is.....a AAA player with AA offensive ability who will end up as the 25th man on the roster because of the money we spent on him.


He's 22, Youk was in the minors till his mid 20s and Youk is 500% better than Iggy. So there plenty left to learn.

Youkilis also didnt play a game in the minors until he was 22. He had superior offensive/on-base skills and had a silly nickname to go with his skills.

Iglesias is beyond awful at the plate. Pitchers hit with more pop than him.


I doubt there is more for Iggy to learn in the minors, especially with Xander breathing down his neck.

Xander will not be a MLB SS.

[jung]

Are you assuming Xander will outgrow SS for 3rd base?

[SCM33]

Are you assuming Xander will outgrow SS for 3rd base?

No, I just don't think he is a SS.

I think defensively, he will take the route of a player like Albert Pujols.

He will bounce back and forth between 3B and LF, and eventually settle at 1B/DH.

[Dojji]

No, I just don't think he is a SS.

I think defensively, he will take the route of a player like Albert Pujols.

He will bounce back and forth between 3B and LF, and eventually settle at 1B/DH.

That's a bit excessively cynical. He's going to fill out, but you're pretty much assuming he turns into a clone of David Ortiz. That takes it a bit overboard, no?

A guy like Jeter, or A-Rod, stayed on the left side of the infield despite aging and filling out, there's no reason it's impossible for Xander to do so.

[iortiz]

I do not want to see this guy wearing a Red Sox uniform again.

[jung]

Iggy actually finally did do enough at the plate in the last few games to be worthy of a shot because of his glove. He finally stopped getting blown right out of the batters box by ML pitching and discontinued that defensive slap hitting style.

The most disappointing thing Iggy did in the last week was not make that play in the second game in the just ended yankee series. Stopping runs with his glove is exactly what he has to do and although he has made several great defensive plays the last few weeks he did not make that one.

Iggy will be traded. I have said it for weeks now. The Red Sox are incapable of making a correct assessment of the SS position at the ML level. Want proof? Getting ride of Scutaro in a salary dump to make room for the incomparable Aviles and Punto....brilliant! Not that Scuts was God's gift to SS but offing him to make room for Aviles/Punto was a joke.

They currently do not have an everyday ML SS. Aviles is comical. Ciriaco is the closest thing they have and nobody takes him seriously as an everyday SS. Ciriaco is probably destined to be a terrific utility player possibly including OF in his repertoire. Ciriaco may get the SS job next year as they simply opt to take whatever they can get at SS time and time again.

They should trade Iggy so that he can get on with his career and then use some of that cash from "the trade" to bring in a prototypical Red Sox SS. That is frankly a loser direction to go in because the prototypical Red Sox SS generally sucks. But an Iggy will simply not fly in Boston. We have gotten used to a certain type of SS here, stone hands...lack of range and all and unless we have one of those so that we can claim him "adequate" all season long we just won't be happy.

[mvp 78]

I do not want to see this guy wearing a Red Sox uniform again.

I wonder what you would have said about Pedroia in October '06.

[Station 13]

I wonder what you would have said about Pedroia in October '06.

I don't think anybody really worried about Pedroia, he mash in the minors.

Iggy didn't do that and he is carved up in the majors. If there's a silver lining other than his defense, he doesn't strikeout much.

[a700hitter]

I don't think anybody really worried about Pedroia, he mash in the minors.

Iggy didn't do that and he is carved up in the majors. If there's a silver lining other than his defense, he doesn't strikeout much.
You are right. He has not demonstrated an ability to hit at any level in the organization. How can we expecrt him to hit in the majors.

[SCM33]

That's a bit excessively cynical. He's going to fill out, but you're pretty much assuming he turns into a clone of David Ortiz. That takes it a bit overboard, no?

A guy like Jeter, or A-Rod, stayed on the left side of the infield despite aging and filling out, there's no reason it's impossible for Xander to do so.

Where did I compare him to David Ortiz?

I said he was not a SS and will most likely follow the defensive career path of someone like Albert Pujols, who was out of position at 3B and LF (Pujols also had the bad arm).

[a700hitter]

Where did I compare him to David Ortiz?

I said he was not a SS and will most likely follow the defensive career path of someone like Albert Pujols, who was out of position at 3B and LF (Pujols also had the bad arm).Was David Ortiz ever a SS? LOL!!

[Dojji]

Where did I compare him to David Ortiz?

I said he was not a SS and will most likely follow the defensive career path of someone like Albert Pujols, who was out of position at 3B and LF (Pujols also had the bad arm).

You're right, you didn't compare him to David Ortiz. It's more accurate to say you compared him to anothjer former shortstop (in the minors at least) named Miguel Cabrera, and I consider that overboard too.

[SCM33]

You're right, you didn't compare him to David Ortiz. It's more accurate to say you compared him to anothjer former shortstop (in the minors at least) named Miguel Cabrera, and I consider that overboard too.

Why is it overboard? He's not a SS.

[Spitball]

Why is it overboard? He's not a SS.

He was in the minor leagues before being moved to third. He actually played more minor league games at shortstop than third.

[Dojji]

Why is it overboard? He's not a SS.

But he is exactly what you're describing Xander Bogaerts as. Just because Bogaerts is tall, he's doomed to fill out and not be able to play an adequate short or even become too big to play on the left side at all. You know, the same way Troy Tulowitzki did. Or Jeter. Or A-Rod. Or Nomar. Or Ernie freaking Banks who was 6'1 and got it done at short for a decade before needing to move off the position at a time when no one thought a guy could or should be a power hitting SS.

[Dojji]

He was in the minor leagues before being moved to third. He actually played more minor league games at shortstop than third.

Exactly. SCM described Miguel Cabrera's career track to a T whether he wants to admit it or not. Bogaerts has his faults but he's a much, much more athletic player than Miggy C.

Bogaerts could put on 30 pounds as he fills out and still be no heavier than some of the guys I mentioned in my prior post. He'd need to gain 20 pounds to get to Jeter's playing weight and he's 50 pounds short of A-Rod's. Heck I hope he does fill out at least a little, if he's hitting rockets at 175, he could be absurd with more ballast behind his swing.

This kid has room to grow and still be an effective SS if he can pick up good work habits and keep his conditioning. If he gets fat, he might have to do the Rico Petrocelli/John Valentin thing, but by everything I've heard, he's past the point where you consider not starting his career at short already and they have kept him at short. So SCM talking as if something was inevitable that has pretty much already been avoided definitely rubs me the wrong way.

[rjortiz]

No, I just don't think he is a SS.

I think defensively, he will take the route of a player like Albert Pujols.

He will bounce back and forth between 3B and LF, and eventually settle at 1B/DH.

Have you even seen Bogaerts play?

[SCM33]

Exactly. SCM described Miguel Cabrera's career track to a T whether he wants to admit it or not. Bogaerts has his faults but he's a much, much more athletic player than Miggy C.

Bogaerts could put on 30 pounds as he fills out and still be no heavier than some of the guys I mentioned in my prior post. He'd need to gain 20 pounds to get to Jeter's playing weight and he's 50 pounds short of A-Rod's. Heck I hope he does fill out at least a little, if he's hitting rockets at 175, he could be absurd with more ballast behind his swing.

This kid has room to grow and still be an effective SS if he can pick up good work habits and keep his conditioning. If he gets fat, he might have to do the Rico Petrocelli/John Valentin thing, but by everything I've heard, he's past the point where you consider not starting his career at short already and they have kept him at short. So SCM talking as if something was inevitable that has pretty much already been avoided definitely rubs me the wrong way.

Dojji......again, I did not compare him to anyone defensively. I said he's not a SS. I said he will end up at 3B/LF and eventually to 1B/DH, a positional change similar to what Pujols went through. I did not say he would get fat. I did not compare him to Miguel Cabrera. I did not say he was more athletic than Miguel Cabrera........you said all those things....

And when I think about it, don't say hes more athletic than the guy who just won the first triple crown since 1967, that sounds incredibly stupid considering the kid hasnt even played a game above AA.....even more ridiculous since you previously compared Daniel Nava to Ted Williams.

I said he isn't a SS.....and hes not.


Have you even seen Bogaerts play?
Have you? Kinda weird, because I have read real scouting reports, by real scouts, who really know what they are talking about......and they all say the same things that I have concluded to just by looking at his defensive metrics/numbers. I'm sorry, I don't project players based on some random talksox members account of watching him have 3 at bats at some random game he went to 2 years ago.

[Dojji]

Dojji......again, I did not compare him to anyone defensively. I said he's not a SS. I said he will end up at 3B/LF and eventually to 1B/DH, a positional change similar to what Pujols went through. I did not say he would get fat. I did not compare him to Miguel Cabrera. I did not say he was more athletic than Miguel Cabrera........you said all those things....

By saying those things, you are saying he's Miguel Cabrera, because that's what Miguel Cabrera is. You're shying away from that comparison once I attach a name to it because because me pointing out what the attributes you're describing combine into, and the kind of player that is, makes you realize how limited and wrong your argument is.

[Dojji]

Have you? Kinda weird, because I have read real scouting reports, by real scouts, who really know what they are talking about......and they all say the same things that I have concluded to just by looking at his defensive metrics/numbers. I'm sorry, I don't project players based on some random talksox members account of watching him have 3 at bats at some random game he went to 2 years ago.

A simple "I haven't seen Bogaerts" will be fine. If you're too arrogant to admit that you're talking from within a rounding error of the same level of ignorance as any of the rest of us, well, that's par for the course for you. Doesn't change reality one little bit.

[SCM33]

By saying those things, you are saying he's Miguel Cabrera, because that's what Miguel Cabrera is. You're shying away from that comparison once I attach a name to it because because me pointing out what the attributes you're describing combine into, and the kind of player that is, makes you realize how limited and wrong your argument is.
Again no, but since you insist.....Bogaerts is not a SS, and when he becomes a 1B/3B, Cabrera is still the better defensive player.


A simple "I haven't seen Bogaerts" will be fine. If you're too arrogant to admit that you're talking from within a rounding error of the same level of ignorance as any of the rest of us, well, that's par for the course for you. Doesn't change reality one little bit.

No, I havent seen him play. Scouting reports say hes not a MLB SS. I'll take their opinion over yours. Btw, has Daniel Nava blossomed into Ted Williams yet?......

[Plumpamania]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/9/14/3332552/minor-league-prospect-report-xander-x-eliminator-bogaerts-red-sox

In this report they advise that he looks to fill in to be a 3B to RF guy.

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/02/scouting-report-xander-bogaerts-ss/

This one has him as a 3B by notion.

The one thing however that has been proven time and time again is that scouts don't have all the answers (que Billy Beane and Oakland). Mike Aviles is a big guy for SS and has proven to be a top tier defensive SS this year.

According to fangraphs the Red Sox had the third best defensive SS play in MLB last year. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0).

Jose Iglesias will never hit at the MLB level as he never hit at any level in the minors. He has no track record of anything but his glove and with the failure of Carl Crawford and the move of both him and Adrian Gonzalez we need some sort of offensive production out of SS.

Let's keep Mike Aviles going and then swap to Xander Bogaerts until we need another swap. Make Iglesias learn other positions and use him as our Joe McEwing.

[a700hitter]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/9/14/3332552/minor-league-prospect-report-xander-x-eliminator-bogaerts-red-sox

In this report they advise that he looks to fill in to be a 3B to RF guy.

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/02/scouting-report-xander-bogaerts-ss/

This one has him as a 3B by notion.

The one thing however that has been proven time and time again is that scouts don't have all the answers (que Billy Beane and Oakland). Mike Aviles is a big guy for SS and has proven to be a top tier defensive SS this year.

According to fangraphs the Red Sox had the third best defensive SS play in MLB last year. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0).

Jose Iglesias will never hit at the MLB level as he never hit at any level in the minors. He has no track record of anything but his glove and with the failure of Carl Crawford and the move of both him and Adrian Gonzalez we need some sort of offensive production out of SS.

Let's keep Mike Aviles going and then swap to Xander Bogaerts until we need another swap. Make Iglesias learn other positions and use him as our Joe McEwing.
Keeping Aviles as the starting SS would be a commitment to mediocrity.

[Behindenemylines]

I agree, Aviles in any more of a role then as a utility guy who could play both the infield and outfield is asking for a repeat of 2012. I just don't see him as a starting SS with a team that is looking to get back to the playoffs. An if it came down to Ciriaco or Aviles for one roster spot I would take Ciriaco. I've read that Aviles was not happy with lack of playing time in September and still sees himself as a starting SS. If he is on the 2013 version and not a starter it could be a problem.

[Plumpamania]

.250 .282 .381 .663
.293 .315 .390 .705

Which player would you want full time? Most of us would agree player 2, but it was only his first year in the league.

Aviles has hit .300 three times in his MLB career. Anyone who thinks we'll be back in the middle of a playoff race next year is I'm sorry to say, not thinking clearly.

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox go out and spend huge money to try to win next yr, Iglesias is not the answer. If they do the smart thing and get some stopgap options and effectively concede the yr, then you have to see what this kid can do

[Plumpamania]

Nah we don't. We know what he can do. Rey Ordonez V2.

[Palodios]

.250 .282 .381 .663
.293 .315 .390 .705

Which player would you want full time? Most of us would agree player 2, but it was only his first year in the league.

Aviles has hit .300 three times in his MLB career. Anyone who thinks we'll be back in the middle of a playoff race next year is I'm sorry to say, not thinking clearly.

Twice, actually.

[Plumpamania]

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2008 27 KCR AL 102 441 419 68 136 27 4 10 51 8 3 18 58 .325 .354 .480 .833 121 201 12 2 0 2 4 64/5 RoY-4
2009 28 KCR AL 36 127 120 10 22 3 1 1 8 1 0 4 26 .183 .208 .250 .458 22 30 3 0 2 1 0 6/5D
2010 29 KCR AL 110 448 424 63 129 16 3 8 32 14 5 20 49 .304 .335 .413 .748 104 175 13 1 0 3 0 46/5D
2011 30 TOT AL 91 309 286 31 73 17 3 7 39 14 4 13 44 .255 .289 .409 .698 89 117 8 2 4 4 0 546/D97
2011 30 KCR AL 53 202 185 14 41 11 3 5 31 10 2 9 27 .222 .261 .395 .656 78 73 5 2 3 3 0 54/6D
2011 30 BOS AL 38 107 101 17 32 6 0 2 8 4 2 4 17 .317 .340 .436 .775 107 44 3 0 1 1 0 5/6497
2012 31 BOS AL 136 546 512 57 128 28 0 13 60 14 6 23 77 .250 .282 .381 .663 76 195 6 2 3 6 0 *6/D45

Three times.

[Plumpamania]

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2008 27 KCR AL 102 441 419 68 136 27 4 10 51 8 3 18 58 .325 .354 .480 .833 121 201 12 2 0 2 4 64/5 RoY-4
2009 28 KCR AL 36 127 120 10 22 3 1 1 8 1 0 4 26 .183 .208 .250 .458 22 30 3 0 2 1 0 6/5D
2010 29 KCR AL 110 448 424 63 129 16 3 8 32 14 5 20 49 .304 .335 .413 .748 104 175 13 1 0 3 0 46/5D
2011 30 TOT AL 91 309 286 31 73 17 3 7 39 14 4 13 44 .255 .289 .409 .698 89 117 8 2 4 4 0 546/D97
2011 30 KCR AL 53 202 185 14 41 11 3 5 31 10 2 9 27 .222 .261 .395 .656 78 73 5 2 3 3 0 54/6D
2011 30 BOS AL 38 107 101 17 32 6 0 2 8 4 2 4 17 .317 .340 .436 .775 107 44 3 0 1 1 0 5/6497
2012 31 BOS AL 136 546 512 57 128 28 0 13 60 14 6 23 77 .250 .282 .381 .663 76 195 6 2 3 6 0 *6/D45

Three times.

[a700hitter]

.250 .282 .381 .663
.293 .315 .390 .705

Which player would you want full time? Most of us would agree player 2, but it was only his first year in the league.

Aviles has hit .300 three times in his MLB career. Anyone who thinks we'll be back in the middle of a playoff race next year is I'm sorry to say, not thinking clearly.Aviles wasn' good enough to win a starting job for the Royals. He is a utility type player, and not a very good one. Scutaro is a far superior utility guy, who is more proficient at ore positions and much steadier at the plate, but apparently he is too expensive for our budget.

[Palodios]

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2008 27 KCR AL 102 441 419 68 136 27 4 10 51 8 3 18 58 .325 .354 .480 .833 121 201 12 2 0 2 4 64/5 RoY-4
2009 28 KCR AL 36 127 120 10 22 3 1 1 8 1 0 4 26 .183 .208 .250 .458 22 30 3 0 2 1 0 6/5D
2010 29 KCR AL 110 448 424 63 129 16 3 8 32 14 5 20 49 .304 .335 .413 .748 104 175 13 1 0 3 0 46/5D
2011 30 TOT AL 91 309 286 31 73 17 3 7 39 14 4 13 44 .255 .289 .409 .698 89 117 8 2 4 4 0 546/D97
2011 30 KCR AL 53 202 185 14 41 11 3 5 31 10 2 9 27 .222 .261 .395 .656 78 73 5 2 3 3 0 54/6D
2011 30 BOS AL 38 107 101 17 32 6 0 2 8 4 2 4 17 .317 .340 .436 .775 107 44 3 0 1 1 0 5/6497
2012 31 BOS AL 136 546 512 57 128 28 0 13 60 14 6 23 77 .250 .282 .381 .663 76 195 6 2 3 6 0 *6/D45

Three times.

Over the year in 2011, he hit .255. The 30 games in Boston don't count because overall he hit .255.

[Dojji]

Aviles wasn' good enough to win a starting job for the Royals.

Not really a reasonable statement. How many of our current shortstop options would YOU play ahead of Alcides Escobar?

Just because the Royals are a mediocre team doesn't mean they have chumps at every position.

[Behindenemylines]

I agree that Aviles at SS is not part of a positive rebuild. As far as utility players I would take Ciriaco over him.

[iortiz]

Aviles wasn' good enough to win a starting job for the Royals. He is a utility type player, and not a very good one. Scutaro is a far superior utility guy, who is more proficient at ore positions and much steadier at the plate, but apparently he is too expensive for our budget.

At this point we do not have a SS. Aviles is not the answer and clearly Iglesis is not either.

I would play with Ciriaco over Aviles any day if out there are not other options.

[a700hitter]

Not really a reasonable statement. How many of our current shortstop options would YOU play ahead of Alcides Escobar?

Just because the Royals are a mediocre team doesn't mean they have chumps at every position.The Royals' teams tha Aviles was on was chock full of chumps, and he couldn't start at any position. I believe they sent him back to the minors at some point. If we are going to rebuild our team with KC bench warmers, we will suck for a long time.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

[SouthieFanatic]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

I've been campaigning Bogaerts getting some early looks for a long time now. Glad to finally see someone else come out and say it. Aviles is absolutely not an everyday SS and Iglesias isn't ever going to evolve into a top of the lineup guy. It's a stretch, but it would be great to see Xander get a look next season

[a700hitter]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.Yep, you are right about that. It's just amazing to me that the FO thought he was a suitable full time SS.

[Dojji]

Yep, you are right about that. It's just amazing to me that the FO thought he was a suitable full time SS.

I'm not sure they did. Not really. Aviles at short had "least bad option" written all over it. Remember that the alternatives were Iglesias or what we thought Ciriaco was at the start of the year (a AAAA nobody). Not a lot of good choices there.

Now in retrospect Ciriaco may have been a better answer. But who knows, if we'd tried Ciriaco he might have gotten exposed and left us twisting in the wind the same way Aviles did.

One thing for sure, anyone talking seriously about releasing Aviles in favor of Ciriaco is nuts. The difference between the two players doesn't warrant that and of the two, Aviles has been a competent (not great, but adequate) starter in the past, and Ciriaco never has.

Ciriaco's speed is impressive, but unless he's going to couple it with at least a slgihtly better OBP, I find myself considering that speed-without-OBP vs. Aviles' inconsistent power a total tossup, and on the whole there's probably room for both players next year.

They really should have spent that money they wasted on Crawford on Jose Reyes instead. If we're talking about free agency, one of the best ways to use FA is to fill holes your farm can't fill. Our farm was in a much better position to fill in at left field than it was at shortstop, especially before we traded Reddick.

[wyo-sox]

SFF, how can you say in the same post Aviles's offense was atrocious and also state Iggy is our best option going forward? Not a sarcastic attack, just curious as to your perspective.

[Behindenemylines]

I think he means that Iggy has more potential for growth, while Aviles is a finished product. When or a BIG IF, Iggy can at least consistantly hit .250 his D would put his value higher then Aviles. Iggy has a higher ceiling. I think that is what he meant. I agree Iggy has a higher ceiling, but until he can hit at least .250 it only is potential. An potential doesn't win games.

[SoxFanForsyth]

SFF, how can you say in the same post Aviles's offense was atrocious and also state Iggy is our best option going forward? Not a sarcastic attack, just curious as to your perspective.

Because defense up the middle is incredibly valuable.

Essentially, the way I see it, Aviles's offense is going to be better than Iglesias's offense.

But the increased defense that Iglesias provides over Aviles and the runs saved is greater than the increased offense that Aviles provides over Iggy.

Since SS is such an important defensive position, I would rather have Iggy than Aviles. If it was LF or something, I go with the better offense.

If we're going to get a shitty offensive player at SS, which is what Aviles and Iglesias are, at least give me the one with the gold glove who is going to save run after run on the defensive side of the ball.

[SCM33]

Because defense up the middle is incredibly valuable.

Essentially, the way I see it, Aviles's offense is going to be better than Iglesias's offense.

But the increased defense that Iglesias provides over Aviles and the runs saved is greater than the increased offense that Aviles provides over Iggy.

Since SS is such an important defensive position, I would rather have Iggy than Aviles. If it was LF or something, I go with the better offense.

If we're going to get a shitty offensive player at SS, which is what Aviles and Iglesias are, at least give me the one with the gold glove who is going to save run after run on the defensive side of the ball.

You have NO statistical point to prove this.

Iglesias is beyond awful. Aviles is at least in the "Starter" category (2.0+ above WAR). You speak as if Aviles glove were the reason they sucked.

If Iglesias were the starting SS, this team would have reached 100 losses.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You have NO statistical point to prove this.

Iglesias is beyond awful. Aviles is at least in the "Starter" category (2.0+ above WAR). You speak as if Aviles glove were the reason they sucked.

If Iglesias were the starting SS, this team would have reached 100 losses.

Um. Ok. So many ignorant statements. Where to start?

Mike Aviles wRC+ (Runs Created): 74
Mike Aviles DRS/yr (Defensive Runs Saved over 1,200 innings): 15
Total Value: 89 Runs Saved and Created

Iglesias DRS/yr (2012 numbers): 43

Brendan Ryan hit .194/.277/.278. He had a wRC+ of 64. For argument's sake, we'll say Iggy tanks and has that line.

Total Value (61 + 43): 104 Runs Saved and Created

Zero statistical data. Thanks for playing.

On to the next.

You say the Sox would have easily lost 100 games if Iglesias was at SS. That's even more hilarious. Can you please, since you're so enamored by statistical proof that you attempted to negate my theory because of a lack of it, provide some statistical proof that Iglesias over Aviles would have cost the Red Sox 7 losses?

Because the way I see it, Aviles has a 1.8 WAR. Iglesias, in just 25 games, had a 0.3 WAR. And Iggy's WAR is only 0.3 because he played just 25 games.

Aviles's 1.8 WAR/136 Games = 0.013 WAR/Game, over 162 Games = 2.10
Iglesias's 0.3 WAR/25 Games = 0.012 WAR/Game, over 162 Games = 1.95

2.10 - 1.95 =/= -7.00

And that's with Iglesias hitting .118.

So....your argument is kind of completely destroyed. Good try, though, just blindly throwing out bullshit.

[wyo-sox]

Because defense up the middle is incredibly valuable.

Essentially, the way I see it, Aviles's offense is going to be better than Iglesias's offense.

But the increased defense that Iglesias provides over Aviles and the runs saved is greater than the increased offense that Aviles provides over Iggy.

Since SS is such an important defensive position, I would rather have Iggy than Aviles. If it was LF or something, I go with the better offense.

If we're going to get a shitty offensive player at SS, which is what Aviles and Iglesias are, at least give me the one with the gold glove who is going to save run after run on the defensive side of the ball.

OK, thanks. I'm not sure I agree but I see what you are saying. I guess to me the idea that the gold glove guy is going to save run after run after run just does not happen from what I see. It's not like every ball to the SS will get by if Iggy is not playing. And the opportunity for Iggy to make an outstanding highlight play seems to only come around once every few games- whereas the opportunity to do something with a bat comes several times each game.

I think though that Aviles or Iggy is like choosing if you'd like to get stabbed or shot. We are not in good shape. Really besides LF, RF, 1B, SS, C, 2 or 3 pitchers, and a manager.... we are ready for the next season, lol. Amazing what a rebuild we have on our hands.

[rjortiz]

Um. Ok. So many ignorant statements. Where to start?

Mike Aviles wRC+ (Runs Created): 74
Mike Aviles DRS/yr (Defensive Runs Saved over 1,200 innings): 15
Total Value: 99 Runs Saved and Created

Iglesias DRS/yr (2012 numbers): 43

Brendan Ryan hit .194/.277/.278. He had a wRC+ of 64. For argument's sake, we'll say Iggy tanks and has that line.

Total Value (61 + 43): 104 Runs Saved and Created

Zero statistical data. Thanks for playing.

On to the next.

You say the Sox would have easily lost 100 games if Iglesias was at SS. That's even more hilarious. Can you please, since you're so enamored by statistical proof that you attempted to negate my theory because of a lack of it, provide some statistical proof that Iglesias over Aviles would have cost the Red Sox 7 losses?

Because the way I see it, Aviles has a 1.8 WAR. Iglesias, in just 25 games, had a 0.3 WAR. And Iggy's WAR is only 0.3 because he played just 25 games.

Aviles's 1.8 WAR/136 Games = 0.013 WAR/Game, over 162 Games = 2.10
Iglesias's 0.3 WAR/25 Games = 0.012 WAR/Game, over 162 Games = 1.95

2.10 - 1.95 =/= -7.00

And that's with Iglesias hitting .118.

So....your argument is kind of completely destroyed. Good try, though, just blindly throwing out bullshit.

Haha, nice work.

[jung]

Perhaps a look at the direction of league BA in general will make us a bit less critical of Iggy in that regard and a bit more appreciative of his defense.

Here is AL league BA from the 2012 regular season back to the 2003 regular season.

2012 = .255
2011 = .258
2010=.260
2009=.267
2008=.268
2007=.271
2006=.275
2005=.268
2004=.270
2003=.267

Clearly BA is in decline...severe decline for that matter. Maybe that suggests that defense should be more appreciated especially at the most important defensive position on the field. In addition maybe our expectations for Iggys offense should not be a great as they would have been.

I had looked for the numbers because I was so disgusted with the quality of play generally and specifically the quality of hitting in the regular season and in the post season to date. I don't think we can attribute these numbers to diminished use of PED's to the degree that even I was at one point willing to suggest. As more and more data becomes available, it should be clear that they have not been eliminated from baseball at this point.

Based on what I witnessed this season and now this post season, I think it is plate appearance quality and swing technique more than anything else. They appear to me to be getting worse and worse. Even mediocre pitching has the hitters dancing on the end of the puppet masters strings.

[SCM33]

Um. Ok. So many ignorant statements. Where to start?

Mike Aviles wRC+ (Runs Created): 74
Mike Aviles DRS/yr (Defensive Runs Saved over 1,200 innings): 15
Total Value: 99 Runs Saved and Created

Iglesias DRS/yr (2012 numbers): 43

Brendan Ryan hit .194/.277/.278. He had a wRC+ of 64. For argument's sake, we'll say Iggy tanks and has that line.

Total Value (61 + 43): 104 Runs Saved and Created

Zero statistical data. Thanks for playing.

Wow, look at that! Brendan Ryan is a awful Major League Baseball player!!! That must mean that you could project him to be exactly like Iglesias then huh?

.......except for the fact that Ryan was, and is a much better offensive player when you compare their minor league numbers.

So you think they are equal, and I just showed that he could potentially be WORSE....then I cringe to think about how shitty an offensive player Iglesias really is.

Thanks for putting up those numbers to compare those awesomely shitty players, I now actually think he sucks more than I originally did.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ryan--001bre

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=iglesi001jos


On to the next.

You say the Sox would have easily lost 100 games if Iglesias was at SS. That's even more hilarious. Can you please, since you're so enamored by statistical proof that you attempted to negate my theory because of a lack of it, provide some statistical proof that Iglesias over Aviles would have cost the Red Sox 7 losses?

Because the way I see it, Aviles has a 1.8 WAR. Iglesias, in just 25 games, had a 0.3 WAR. And Iggy's WAR is only 0.3 because he played just 25 games.

Aviles's 1.8 WAR/136 Games = 0.013 WAR/Game, over 162 Games = 2.10
Iglesias's 0.3 WAR/25 Games = 0.012 WAR/Game, over 162 Games = 1.95

2.10 - 1.95 =/= -7.00

And that's with Iglesias hitting .118.

So....your argument is kind of completely destroyed. Good try, though, just blindly throwing out bullshit.

Sure, Iglesias can't hit, and with Aviles....he is +9 when you look at Total Zone Total Fielding Runs per 1200 innings (Rtot/yr). In fact, if you look at most sabermetric fielding categories, Aviles is plus in all of them except 1 (Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average on the Road).

Hate to break it to you. Iglesias sucks, will not be the starting SS when we break camp and if somehow is......then the writing is on the wall before the season even starts.

So Aviles is the much better offensive player, and is at least average with the glove.

All your time and research showed me (after I researched your numbers and more to compare), was that Iglesias actually sucks worse than I originally thought, and Aviles is actually better with the glove than I thought.

[Plumpamania]

Derek Jeter was never, EVER a gold glove caliber short stop. Did that stop the Yankees from winning? I'm by no means saying that Mike Aviles is as good offensively as Jeter. But Iglesias hit .118 .200 .191 .391 this year for an OPS plus of 6. SIX! FREAKIN SIX. Many of you on these boards are willing to write off Ryan Lavarnway with a small sample size, but I don't think you can get much worse than Iglesias at the plate. In fact I'd take Rey Ordonez over Iglesias in a heart beat, both offensively and defensively.


Year Team League AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS
2010 LOW NYP .350 13 40 8 14 2 2 0 7 20 7 8 2 1 .458 .500 .958
2010 POR EAS .285 57 221 29 63 10 3 0 13 79 8 49 5 2 .315 .357 .672
2010 Minors .295 70 261 37 77 12 5 0 20 99 15 57 7 3 .339 .379 .719
2011 PAW INT .235 101 357 35 84 9 0 1 31 96 21 58 12 4 .285 .269 .554
2011 Minors .235 101 357 35 84 9 0 1 31 96 21 58 12 4 .285 .269 .554
2011 Majors .333 10 6 3 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0 0 .333 .333 .667
2012 LOW NYP .375 2 8 1 3 1 0 0 0 4 1 1 1 0 .444 .500 .944
2012 PAW INT .266 88 353 46 94 9 1 1 23 108 27 46 12 3 .318 .306 .624
2012 Minors .269 90 361 47 97 10 1 1 23 112 28 47 13 3 .321 .310 .631
2012 Majors .118 25 68 5 8 2 0 1 2 13 4 16 1 0 .200 .191 .391

In anything higher than rookie ball he hasn't sniffed a .700 OPS and that's in the PCL as well. The kid can't hit.

By the way on your Brendan Ryan argument, how did the Mariners do this year?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Wow, look at that! Brendan Ryan is a awful Major League Baseball player!!! That must mean that you could project him to be exactly like Iglesias then huh?

.......except for the fact that Ryan was, and is a much better offensive player when you compare their minor league numbers.

So you think they are equal, and I just showed that he could potentially be WORSE....then I cringe to think about how shitty an offensive player Iglesias really is.

Thanks for putting up those numbers to compare those awesomely shitty players, I now actually think he sucks more than I originally did.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ryan--001bre

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=iglesi001jos



Sure, Iglesias can't hit, and with Aviles....he is +9 when you look at Total Zone Total Fielding Runs per 1200 innings (Rtot/yr). In fact, if you look at most sabermetric fielding categories, Aviles is plus in all of them except 1 (Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average on the Road).

Hate to break it to you. Iglesias sucks, will not be the starting SS when we break camp and if somehow is......then the writing is on the wall before the season even starts.

So Aviles is the much better offensive player, and is at least average with the glove.

All your time and research showed me (after I researched your numbers and more to compare), was that Iglesias actually sucks worse than I originally thought, and Aviles is actually better with the glove than I thought.

1. I guess when you compare Brendan Ryan at 24 when he first reached AAA to Iglesias, reaching AAA at 21, you're probably going to see a bit of a difference in numbers. But that wouldn't go with your theory, so obviously you will just ignore it and hope I don't notice. Bad news. I noticed.

2. Aviles is a better offensive player. But, as I showed by the total runs saved and created, Iglesias provides more support to the team. Sorry, it's math.

3. Here are some of Iglesias's projections coming into this season:

http://www.fantasypros.com/mlb/players/jose-iglesias.php

So, his worst projected line was .237/.275/.258. And that's actually better than the projection I posted using Ryan's numbers. Not as good in SLG, higher AVG, same OBP.

I'm very sorry that you can't comprehend that there are two sides to a baseball game (hint: one is defense), and that value is added on both sides.

Iglesias, with his .118 average this year, still would have had a WAR consistent with that of Aviles. And his BABIP of .137? I'd say that's likely to trend upward, wouldn't you?

Probably not, you're not a reasonable person. You just throw on the blinders and hate players without regard to statistics and facts.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Derek Jeter was never, EVER a gold glove caliber short stop. Did that stop the Yankees from winning? I'm by no means saying that Mike Aviles is as good offensively as Jeter. But Iglesias hit .118 .200 .191 .391 this year for an OPS plus of 6. SIX! FREAKIN SIX. Many of you on these boards are willing to write off Ryan Lavarnway with a small sample size, but I don't think you can get much worse than Iglesias at the plate. In fact I'd take Rey Ordonez over Iglesias in a heart beat, both offensively and defensively.


Year Team League AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS
2010 LOW NYP .350 13 40 8 14 2 2 0 7 20 7 8 2 1 .458 .500 .958
2010 POR EAS .285 57 221 29 63 10 3 0 13 79 8 49 5 2 .315 .357 .672
2010 Minors .295 70 261 37 77 12 5 0 20 99 15 57 7 3 .339 .379 .719
2011 PAW INT .235 101 357 35 84 9 0 1 31 96 21 58 12 4 .285 .269 .554
2011 Minors .235 101 357 35 84 9 0 1 31 96 21 58 12 4 .285 .269 .554
2011 Majors .333 10 6 3 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0 0 .333 .333 .667
2012 LOW NYP .375 2 8 1 3 1 0 0 0 4 1 1 1 0 .444 .500 .944
2012 PAW INT .266 88 353 46 94 9 1 1 23 108 27 46 12 3 .318 .306 .624
2012 Minors .269 90 361 47 97 10 1 1 23 112 28 47 13 3 .321 .310 .631
2012 Majors .118 25 68 5 8 2 0 1 2 13 4 16 1 0 .200 .191 .391

In anything higher than rookie ball he hasn't sniffed a .700 OPS and that's in the PCL as well. The kid can't hit.

By the way on your Brendan Ryan argument, how did the Mariners do this year?

Couple things.

First off, he's still extremely young to be in AAA. Going in as a 22 year old is playing way over his head. Brendan Ryan, for example, didn't reach AAA until he was 24. He's not going to be a big hitter. He's going to be an elite defensive SS who transforms into a decent hitter as he ages.

Need I remind anyone here that Dustin Pedroia hit .198 in his first year up here over 31 games?? By no means am I saying that Iglesias is going to be the next Pedroia, but holy shit guys. He played 25 games. He had a UZR/150 of over 49, which is mind boggling.

He's easily a better option than Aviles at SS. Give me a young, inexperienced Bogaerts over both of them, but that will never happen. So it's Iglesias vs Aviles.

Iglesias literally did as bad as he possibly could this year at the dish, and still put up a WAR/game of 0.012, vs Aviles's 0.013.

Give me Iggy over Aviles any day. And that's not even a promotion of Iglesias. It's a knock on Aviles. He's awful.

[a700hitter]

Derek Jeter was never, EVER a gold glove caliber short stop. Did that stop the Yankees from winning? I'm by no means saying that Mike Aviles is as good offensively as Jeter. But Iglesias hit .118 .200 .191 .391 this year for an OPS plus of 6. SIX! FREAKIN SIX. Many of you on these boards are willing to write off Ryan Lavarnway with a small sample size, but I don't think you can get much worse than Iglesias at the plate. In fact I'd take Rey Ordonez over Iglesias in a heart beat, both offensively and defensively.


Year Team League AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS
2010 LOW NYP .350 13 40 8 14 2 2 0 7 20 7 8 2 1 .458 .500 .958
2010 POR EAS .285 57 221 29 63 10 3 0 13 79 8 49 5 2 .315 .357 .672
2010 Minors .295 70 261 37 77 12 5 0 20 99 15 57 7 3 .339 .379 .719
2011 PAW INT .235 101 357 35 84 9 0 1 31 96 21 58 12 4 .285 .269 .554
2011 Minors .235 101 357 35 84 9 0 1 31 96 21 58 12 4 .285 .269 .554
2011 Majors .333 10 6 3 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0 0 .333 .333 .667
2012 LOW NYP .375 2 8 1 3 1 0 0 0 4 1 1 1 0 .444 .500 .944
2012 PAW INT .266 88 353 46 94 9 1 1 23 108 27 46 12 3 .318 .306 .624
2012 Minors .269 90 361 47 97 10 1 1 23 112 28 47 13 3 .321 .310 .631
2012 Majors .118 25 68 5 8 2 0 1 2 13 4 16 1 0 .200 .191 .391

In anything higher than rookie ball he hasn't sniffed a .700 OPS and that's in the PCL as well. The kid can't hit.

By the way on your Brendan Ryan argument, how did the Mariners do this year?I am as big a Yankee hater as there is, but to compare any aspect of Mike Aviles' game to Derek Jeter is pure foolishness. Aviles is a hack who shouldn't be starting at SS for any MLB team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Hey SCM - Still waiting for your statistical proof that with Iglesias as the starting SS, we would have lost 100 games.

Anytime would be great. Actually, the sooner the better. Since, you know, you try to negate someone's statement by calling them out for having no statistical proof, then make a completely unjustified projection with, wait for it......no statistical proof.

Aviles DRS/1,200 Innings + wRC+ = 89

Iglesias would only need a wRC+ of 46 to match that.

[Plumpamania]

I am as big a Yankee hater as there is, but to compare any aspect of Mike Aviles' game to Derek Jeter is pure foolishness. Aviles is a hack who shouldn't be starting at SS for any MLB team.

I said in my post that it was stupid to compare, but what I'm trying to say is going defensive at a position and giving up a stick just for a glove isn't a good idea. There are plenty of options out there that are better than Iglesias.

Iglesias should be used as a trade chip rather than an actual clog. Xander Bogaerts is the future at SS.

[a700hitter]

I said in my post that it was stupid to compare, but what I'm trying to say is going defensive at a position and giving up a stick just for a glove isn't a good idea. There are plenty of options out there that are better than Iglesias.

Iglesias should be used as a trade chip rather than an actual clog. Xander Bogaerts is the future at SS.It's just not an effective argument to bring up Jeter as being in anyway analogous to the Red Sox SS situation with Aviles. I realize that you didn't compare them offensively, but Aviles doesn't compare, not even remotely, to Jeter in any aspect of the game so bringing up Jeter's name in stating your position does not strengthen your argument.

[Plumpamania]

Fine I'll dumb it down for the sake of an analogy.

Good hitting players with average gloves highly outrank Good defensive players with shitty sticks.

[a700hitter]

Fine I'll dumb it down for the sake of an analogy.

Good hitting players with average gloves highly outrank Good defensive players with shitty sticks.I am not convinced that Aviles is a good hitter. He's not even as good as Scutaro.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Exactly a700.

It's not as though we're comparing Iglesias to Tulo.

Aviles had a .663 OPS this year. That's disgusting. He had a 74 wRC+. That's awful

[SoxFanForsyth]

Side note, I cannot believe nobody caught my horrifying math error.

[Station 13]

Exactly a700.

It's not as though we're comparing Iglesias to Tulo.

Aviles had a .663 OPS this year. That's disgusting. He had a 74 wRC+. That's awful

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=7,d

There were only 3 AL SS with an above average wRC+. Zobrist wasn't filter out somehow. He played a few other positions. Seems like half of this board has something for J.J Hardy, he is comparable to Aviles.

and Iggy and his 4WRC+ :lol:

At Iggy's peak he may be a 60-70 wRC+ guy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=7,d

There were only 3 AL SS with an above average wRC+. Zobrist wasn't filter out somehow. He played a few other positions. Seems like half of this board has something for J.J Hardy, he is comparable to Aviles.

and Iggy and his 4WRC+ :lol:

At Iggy's peak he may be a 60-70 wRC+ guy.

And a 60-70 wRC+ would put him at around a 105-115 DRS + wRC+. Which is much better than Aviles's 89 wRC+.

I do want to point out that by no means am I saying that Iglesias is a great option. He's more of a "better of the two bad options".

Just to be clear, saying that Iglesias is a better option than Aviles is not the same as saying that Iglesias is a good shortstop. He'll be, at his peak, around a 2.5-3.0 WAR player, which is above average, but at the same time, his WAR will be weighted very heavily by his UZR.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Side note, going back to the fangraphs site - I really would like to see the Red Sox go after Elvis Andrus.

As of right now, though, I am convinced that the DBacks and Rangers are going to line up perfectly for a trade with Upton and Andrus.

[a700hitter]

Side note, going back to the fangraphs site - I really would like to see the Red Sox go after Elvis Andrus.

As of right now, though, I am convinced that the DBacks and Rangers are going to line up perfectly for a trade with Upton and Andrus.We have nothing to matchup with their needs which are in the pitching department.

[wyo-sox]

Side note, going back to the fangraphs site - I really would like to see the Red Sox go after Elvis Andrus.

As of right now, though, I am convinced that the DBacks and Rangers are going to line up perfectly for a trade with Upton and Andrus.

Andrus would be pretty sweet to have. Would rather have Tulo if we could work out a big trade with anyone. Who knows how it will play out.

[a700hitter]

I think Tulo is a possibility if the Rockies are looking to dump a salary. If the Rockies are looking to go in a different direction and need payroll flexibility, we could probably get him without gutting the farm.

[Behindenemylines]

If the Rangers let Hamilton walk they would have interest in Ellsbury. If Andrus is a SS the Sox are targeting then that is a possible trade match. A Tulo trade would be the Rockies trying to get out from underneath a large contract. Another name that falls in that category is Mauer. If the Twins are looking to dump a large contract the Sox could benefit with that. He could play a lot of first, and catch some. He is the type of hitter that can hit .300 in his sleep. He has enjoyed success at Fenway in his career.

[SoxFanForsyth]

We have nothing to matchup with their needs which are in the pitching department.

Texas has already done some homework on Ellsbury, along with Upton.

The Sox were also rumored to have been paired up with Texas at the deadline in a deal including Ellsbury, but the deal didn't get done for whatever reason.

Regardless, the Rangers are certainly interested in Ells.

[mvp 78]

Getting Mauer would be even worse than getting Tulo. He's not a fulltime catcher anymore and his bat isn't worth the $ at any other position,

[SoxFanForsyth]

Getting Mauer would be even worse than getting Tulo. He's not a fulltime catcher anymore and his bat isn't worth the $ at any other position,

Actually, he's precisely the guy that would fit the Red Sox. Extremely high OBP (.416 this year), OPS in the mid .800's (which would be increased by playing his home games at Fenway rather than Target). Versatile player who can catch, play 1B, and has a bat good enough to DH.

He may not hit 30 HR, but he's probably good for 15-20 with a .400+ OBP and a ton of doubles. If the Twins will eat some of his contract, I'd certainly be interested in a deal for him.

Last year, he caught 75 games. He can split time between C and 1B while Lavarnway filters in, and the Sox could even go as far as using Gomez as a 1B while Mauer catches and/or against LHP.

[mvp 78]

He's too much money for his production. If the Twins aren't eating salary, I'm not interested.

[Plumpamania]

Guys, I didn't necessarily mean Aviles. I meant a good hitting SS for Christ's sake. Bogaerts is a much better projection for our team than Iglesias or any other hitter (IE: the Andrus rumors).

[SCM33]

1. I guess when you compare Brendan Ryan at 24 when he first reached AAA to Iglesias, reaching AAA at 21, you're probably going to see a bit of a difference in numbers. But that wouldn't go with your theory, so obviously you will just ignore it and hope I don't notice. Bad news. I noticed.

2. Aviles is a better offensive player. But, as I showed by the total runs saved and created, Iglesias provides more support to the team. Sorry, it's math.

3. Here are some of Iglesias's projections coming into this season:

http://www.fantasypros.com/mlb/players/jose-iglesias.php

So, his worst projected line was .237/.275/.258. And that's actually better than the projection I posted using Ryan's numbers. Not as good in SLG, higher AVG, same OBP.

I'm very sorry that you can't comprehend that there are two sides to a baseball game (hint: one is defense), and that value is added on both sides.

Iglesias, with his .118 average this year, still would have had a WAR consistent with that of Aviles. And his BABIP of .137? I'd say that's likely to trend upward, wouldn't you?

Probably not, you're not a reasonable person. You just throw on the blinders and hate players without regard to statistics and facts.

Your argument is based on projections and comparisons to other shitty offensive players. I understand he can play defense.....I want better than both Aviles and Iglesias. Its not like I am rallying for Aviles like you are rallying for Iglesias.

BTW, hard to be reasonable when everyone argued with me about how I was wrong all offseason......only to disappear when it turns out that just about everything I said came to be true.


Hey SCM - Still waiting for your statistical proof that with Iglesias as the starting SS, we would have lost 100 games.

Anytime would be great. Actually, the sooner the better. Since, you know, you try to negate someone's statement by calling them out for having no statistical proof, then make a completely unjustified projection with, wait for it......no statistical proof.

Aviles DRS/1,200 Innings + wRC+ = 89

Iglesias would only need a wRC+ of 46 to match that.

I did, you didn't want to hear it.

There is no "be all end all" statistic to evaluate a player. They are all tools which help us evaluate a player. I could cherry pick some obscure (not claiming yours are) stats and claim those to be the end all of player evaluations....we could literally go back and forth all day.

[Palodios]

I did, you didn't want to hear it.

There is no "be all end all" statistic to evaluate a player. They are all tools which help us evaluate a player. I could cherry pick some obscure (not claiming yours are) stats and claim those to be the end all of player evaluations....we could literally go back and forth all day.

I searched through this thread and didn't see any statistical arguments from you on this one. Were they in another thread?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I searched through this thread and didn't see any statistical arguments from you on this one. Were they in another thread?

No, he didn't provide any. I showed that Iglesias could hit to a 46 wRC+, which would have been the lowest in the league this year by about 18 points, and still have a year consistent with what Aviles did, but that's not good enough apparently.

Some people are just stubborn and refuse to admit when they are wrong about something.

[Plumpamania]

Or some people don't want to see as fans, a near automatic out in the line up just for defense. Most Americans don't enjoy pitching duels and low scoring games.

[Palodios]

Or some people don't want to see as fans, a near automatic out in the line up just for defense. Most Americans don't enjoy pitching duels and low scoring games.

Be that as it may, that's the direction this league is going.

[a700hitter]

The league needs to shorten games. Good pitching an low scoring games is a start.

[Palodios]

The league needs to shorten games. Good pitching an low scoring games is a start.

Now that we've seen the end of the Beckett/Dice-k era in Boston, I get the feeling we'll all be saving 2-3 hours every week.

[a700hitter]

Now that we've seen the end of the Beckett/Dice-k era in Boston, I get the feeling we'll all be saving 2-3 hours every week.I'd be happy to waste that extra time on baseball if we have a good team, but with Dice k too often the result was unrewarding. If we are going to stink, I would prefer shorter games.:lol: