View Full Version : Your all-time top Red Sox defenders
Spitball
08-12-2012, 08:39 PM
P - Gary Peters
C - Mike Ryan
1b - George Scott
2b - Dustin Pedroia
3b - Frank Malzone
SS - Rick Burleson
LF - Carl Yastrzemski
CF - Fred Lynn
RF - Dwight Evans
DH - just kidding
Any thoughts or disagreements? I am pretty sure about most of these picks although an argument could be made for pitcher and catcher.
v2freak
08-13-2012, 02:03 AM
Admittedly, my Red Sox history doesn't go all too far back but in recent memory, I'll say Mark Loretta, Kevin Youkilis, Alex Gonzalez, Mike Lowell, Trot Nixon and Jason Varitek.
We have had so few SS in Boston that actually were really good at fielding the position. While we had him for only three years at the very end of his career, I cannot help but put a vote in for Luis Aparicio at SS. He was still a very good defender later in his career when he got to Boston but was nothing at that point like he was early in his career. Still and all it is hard for me to rank other Red Sox fielding SS above Luis as we have had so few SS that could make exceptional plays. More often than not a Red Sox SS is often considered good as a defender if he just makes the plays that are right in front of him, the plays that he should make. We have almost never had SS's that could range left and right, charging the ball and make plays that we would consider spectacular (Iggy like) plays at SS. Luis was that sort of SS. Maybe the only Boston SS I can think of that played the position that way.
Part of the problem for Iggy is that you have to go all the way back to Luis to even consider that sort of SS play here in Boston. If Robin Yount had played in Boston he would have been immortalized here as the greatest SS to have ever played the game. While Robin was a great player that sort of tells you how far away from guys like Ozzy Smith, Luis Aparicio, possibly Iggy and Mark Belanger we are historically here in Boston when it comes to SS play.
mvp 78
08-13-2012, 06:00 AM
C- Tek
1- Youk
2- Pedey
SS- Alex Gonzalez
3- Beltre
R- Dewey
C- Lynn
L- Yaz
Spitball
08-13-2012, 04:25 PM
We have had so few SS in Boston that actually were really good at fielding the position. While we had him for only three years at the very end of his career, I cannot help but put a vote in for Luis Aparicio at SS.
I believe Luis Aparicio was a shadow of his defensive self by the time he came to Boston. I remember him talking about making up for his loss of range by positioning himself well.
His last season in Boston was a very good one offensively. He hit .271 and was 13-1 in stolen bases.
Why was his career over when the Sox cut him? In my opinion, it had to be the slip in his defense.
He was still a very good defender later in his career when he got to Boston but was nothing at that point like he was early in his career.
I think that was a decent representation of what he was at least for the short time he was here. My real point was not that he was still the defensive SS that he was but that he still played the position such that he was making plays outside the usual, run of the mill SS plays. We have had so few guys if any that did that. The Sox have simply never thought about the position that way which was my other point. Anybody that comes in here that cannot mash but is a darned good defender even at SS is bounced pretty quickly.
For example, I cannot argue with the choice of Burleson at SS. However you would use up all your fingers and toes and still not have chosen Burleson among defensive SS generally.
a700hitter
08-13-2012, 04:50 PM
C-- Tony Pena
1B- George Scott/Mientkiewicz
2B- Pedroia
SS- Alex Gonzalez
3B- Rico/Lowell/Beltre
LF- Yaz
CF- Freddie Lynn/Darren Lewis
RF- Evans
P - Boddicker
Elktonnick
08-13-2012, 05:18 PM
Pena - C
Scott 1st
Pedroia-2nd
Burleson-ss
Malzone-3b
Yaz-Lf
Lynn -Cf
Dwight Evans- Rf
Bodicker-P
Spitball
08-13-2012, 08:05 PM
For example, I cannot argue with the choice of Burleson at SS. However you would use up all your fingers and toes and still not have chosen Burleson among defensive SS generally.
The Rooster had great glove, good range, and an incredible arm. I remember he'd air it out just to show off his arm on easy plays. He is the only Red Sox shortstop I can remember winning a Gold Glove.
My honorable mention would go to Orlando Cabrera.
Elktonnick
08-13-2012, 08:28 PM
I think that was a decent representation of what he was at least for the short time he was here. My real point was not that he was still the defensive SS that he was but that he still played the position such that he was making plays outside the usual, run of the mill SS plays. We have had so few guys if any that did that. The Sox have simply never thought about the position that way which was my other point. Anybody that comes in here that cannot mash but is a darned good defender even at SS is bounced pretty quickly.
For example, I cannot argue with the choice of Burleson at SS. However you would use up all your fingers and toes and still not have chosen Burleson among defensive SS generally.
The Rooster was one of the best defensive shortstops in all of baseball during the late 70's and early 80's .
Oh c'mon guys....better than Alan Trammel, Cal Ripken, Mark Bellanger. Rooster was not a better defender than any of those guys and those are just SOME of the AL guys. Bring in the NL guys and Rooster falls off of Page 1 even for that time frame never mind all time. Rooster is one of my favorite Sox cause he was to me Pedey before Pedey in the sense of being a dirt dog...but Holy Cow.
To me Rooster was always Robin Yount light which is in part why I think we would have immortalized Yount here if he played here. I thought that without Yount around, Rooster would have gotten much more attention than he got but you are talking about an era where there were some pretty good defensive SS around...many that just could not hit...which Rooster could.
a700hitter
08-13-2012, 09:25 PM
Oh c'mon guys....better than Alan Trammel, Cal Ripken, Mark Bellanger. Rooster was not a better defender than any of those guys and those are just SOME of the AL guys. Bring in the NL guys and Rooster falls off of Page 1 even for that time frame never mind all time. Rooster is one of my favorite Sox cause he was to me Pedey before Pedey in the sense of being a dirt dog...but Holy Cow.
To me Rooster was always Robin Yount light which is in part why I think we would have immortalized Yount here if he played here. I thought that without Yount around, Rooster would have gotten much more attention than he got but you are talking about an era where there were some pretty good defensive SS around...many that just could not hit...which Rooster could.I think Rooster was before Trammel and Ripken and he was at the tail end of Belanger.
a700hitter
08-13-2012, 09:27 PM
No one could gun the ball from the hole like Burleson, but Concepcion was better.
Spitball
08-13-2012, 09:38 PM
No one could gun the ball from the hole like Burleson, but Concepcion was better.
I remember Sparky Anderson saying Dave Concepcion could play shortstop with a pair of pliers. He was great.
Jung, Burleson was not Bellanger but was as good as Trammel and better than Ripken, who was a good fielder but not a great fielder.
Concepcion was without question a better defender and while Rooster started with the Sox in 74 I think, the wizard started in 78. The Wiz had a pretty decent glove I think.
Rooster in my opinion has a hard time holding his own among defensive SS in or near to the same time he played and really falls off the table all time. He did have a hell of a cannon though...no question about that and he played so hard. I would have loved to have seen a SS iron man contest for that era between Rooster and Yount. The two of them would have probably killed each other in such a contest.
I think the question here or the list is all time, Red Sox defenders and Rooster does fair will as the SS in that list but as I was suggesting earlier, I actually think that does say something for the way the Sox have historically considered the position. While this is a completely different FO, I don't wonder if that historical background is in part what allows the Sox to go ahead and justify a utility infielder that is really a terrible SS (Aviles) as just fine as an everyday SS.
I always thought it was Rooster's hitting that distinguished him among the other SS of his era. Trammel could not hit his weight. Belanger could not hit his weight and he did not weigh anything. That and that incredible arm which of course is a defensive asset.
Spitball
08-13-2012, 10:16 PM
I always thought it was Rooster's hitting that distinguished him among the other SS of his era. Trammel could not hit his weight. Belanger could not hit his weight and he did not weigh anything. That and that incredible arm which of course is a defensive asset.
Hitting has traditionally influenced opinions of defensive prowess at most positions, especially in GG voting. I don't think that is true of Burleson, though. He was pretty good in my opinion. He came along at a time when people looked at Concepcion and Belanger as examples of defensive prowess, and he was not in their class. He was good, though.
Btw, look at Trammel's offensive numbers. He could hit better than Burleson and most other shortstops of the '70s and 80's.
Spitball
08-13-2012, 10:20 PM
Btw, Trammel was a very good hitter.
I did not see much of Trammel early in his career when he was hitting better. Now that I think about it didn't he end up with some injury that really did impact his hitting later in his career?
Can't remember what it was exactly but seem to remember him getting an injury (maybe wrist) that really had an impact on his hitting during the later stages of his career.
I have to see if I can find it somewhere. Maybe ir I just Wiki Trammel it will be on his page.
a700hitter
08-13-2012, 10:45 PM
After Rooster went to the Angels, he blew out his arm making one of his patented rocket throws to 1B. He tore his rotator cuff and never played SS after that. He was moved to 2nd base.
Spitball
08-13-2012, 10:48 PM
I did not see much of Trammel early in his career when he was hitting better. Now that I think about it didn't he end up with some injury that really did impact his hitting later in his career?
Can't remember what it was exactly but seem to remember him getting an injury (maybe wrist) that really had an impact on his hitting during the later stages of his career.
I have to see if I can find it somewhere. Maybe ir I just Wiki Trammel it will be on his page.
He hit better than .300 several times and had a career average of .285 and a slash line of
.352/.415/.767. He could hit.
I once saw Rooster make a throw from Fenway left field that was ridiculous. It was on one of those balls that caroms oddly off that section by where the ball girl sits. Every once and awhile a ball goes down the left field line and really takes an odd hop off there. The oddest of them seem to me to be when they just catch the very end of that wall before it starts to climb going farther down the left field line.
So the ball really just fires out into mid distance left field and really ends up heading for left/center. Nobody is anywhere near the thing and Rooster has to run like crazy just to get to it. Meanwhile the runner on first knew the ball was a double as soon as it was hit and realized once it banged off that wall that nobody was going to end up anywhere near the thing. So he is pounding around the bases and headed for home. Rooster gets to the ball and as you might expect has got all his weight going the wrong way because of where he started his run. Clearly he knew what he was going to do with the ball before he got to it because he jumped on the ball and came up firing. It seemed to me that the ball never got more than a few feet off the ground and made it home without even the usual one hop. You kept expecting the ball to take that one hop cause it was never far off the ground to begin with. Nailed the runner at home who did not know what hit him. The way he figured it the last he saw of that ball nobody was going to nail him at home and in fact the catcher was waiting for him ball in hand. He just laid there for awhile trying to figure out what the hell happened. One of the strongest throws from that part of Fenway I had ever seen and all arm to boot. Had never seen anything quite like that before then and don't really think I have seen one like it since, not from there anyway. Dewey had made some completely ridiculous throws from RF that I have seen but I have never seen a throw like that one Rooster made from that part of left at Fenway.
a700hitter
08-14-2012, 07:38 AM
I once saw Rooster make a throw from Fenway left field that was ridiculous. It was on one of those balls that caroms oddly off that section by where the ball girl sits. Every once and awhile a ball goes down the left field line and really takes an odd hop off there. The oddest of them seem to me to be when they just catch the very end of that wall before it starts to climb going farther down the left field line.
So the ball really just fires out into mid distance left field and really ends up heading for left/center. Nobody is anywhere near the thing and Rooster has to run like crazy just to get to it. Meanwhile the runner on first knew the ball was a double as soon as it was hit and realized once it banged off that wall that nobody was going to end up anywhere near the thing. So he is pounding around the bases and headed for home. Rooster gets to the ball and as you might expect has got all his weight going the wrong way because of where he started his run. Clearly he knew what he was going to do with the ball before he got to it because he jumped on the ball and came up firing. It seemed to me that the ball never got more than a few feet off the ground and made it home without even the usual one hop. You kept expecting the ball to take that one hop cause it was never far off the ground to begin with. Nailed the runner at home who did not know what hit him. The way he figured it the last he saw of that ball nobody was going to nail him at home and in fact the catcher was waiting for him ball in hand. He just laid there for awhile trying to figure out what the hell happened. One of the strongest throws from that part of Fenway I had ever seen and all arm to boot. Had never seen anything quite like that before then and don't really think I have seen one like it since, not from there anyway. Dewey had made some completely ridiculous throws from RF that I have seen but I have never seen a throw like that one Rooster made from that part of left at Fenway.You are really unearthing some memories for me. While I don't remember that particular play, I do remember that some of his throws started off low and stayed on a line never dipping, because he threw so damn hard. No one had a stronger arm at SS back then-- no one. They used to put the knock o him because he took a long time to release the ball, but I don't remember runners beating the throw when he decided to fire that gun. It was amazing, because I think his playing weight was around 160-165.
a700hitter
08-14-2012, 07:43 AM
Some of the older members may remember that Yaz was a pretty good first baseman. There was a year or two where I thought he was worth of the GG.
Spitball
08-14-2012, 08:21 AM
Some of the older members may remember that Yaz was a pretty good first baseman. There was a year or two where I thought he was worth of the GG.
Yaz was a pretty good first baseman, but a young George Scott may have been one of the best fielding first baseman in baseball ever. He really was good.
When he returned to the Sox in 1977, he had put on weight and wasn't nearly as fluid and mobile.
Youk Of The Nation
08-14-2012, 08:21 AM
I only have stats to go on for those players that I never saw play, but as far as everyone's picks in this thread for 1B, didn't Youk set a whole bunch of defensive records, including consecutive errorless chances?
a700hitter
08-14-2012, 08:34 AM
I only have stats to go on for those players that I never saw play, but as far as everyone's picks in this thread for 1B, didn't Youk set a whole bunch of defensive records, including consecutive errorless chances?Youk was pretty darn good. He's certainly in the class of the best. Scott was quick like a cat-- much more athletic than Youk. The best of the best was probably Mintky. I have seen few first baseman in either league play the position like him. He was really unbelievable.
Spitball
08-14-2012, 02:04 PM
Youk was pretty darn good. He's certainly in the class of the best. Scott was quick like a cat-- much more athletic than Youk. The best of the best was probably Mintky. I have seen few first baseman in either league play the position like him. He was really unbelievable.
I would agree that Mientkiewicz was a great fielder, but I wouldn't rank him up there with George Scott or Keith Hernandez.
a700hitter
08-14-2012, 02:05 PM
I would agree that Mientkiewicz was a great fielder, but I wouldn't rank him up there with George Scott or Keith Hernandez.and Mattingly.
Spitball
08-14-2012, 02:13 PM
and Mattingly.
Right! He was a great fielder...even if he was a Yankee.
a700hitter
08-14-2012, 02:18 PM
Right! He was a great fielder...even if he was a Yankee.He was my favorite Yankee star player, because he never won a Championship.:lol:
Spitball
08-14-2012, 03:19 PM
He was my favorite Yankee star player, because he never won a Championship.:lol:
I agree! :thumbsup:
SCM33
08-14-2012, 08:11 PM
C: Salty
1B: Dick Stuart
2B: Jose Offerman
SS: Edgar Renterria
3B: Butch Hobson
LF: Manny Ramirez
CF: Carl Everett
RF: Troy O'Leary
Spitball
08-14-2012, 10:21 PM
C: Salty
1B: Dick Stuart
2B: Jose Offerman
SS: Edgar Renterria
3B: Butch Hobson
LF: Manny Ramirez
CF: Carl Everett
RF: Troy O'Leary
Ouch! Replace Renteria with Don Buddin and we have a whole new thread. :D
RedSoxfanforlife305
08-14-2012, 10:31 PM
C: Salty
1B: Dick Stuart
2B: Jose Offerman
SS: Edgar Renterria
3B: Butch Hobson
LF: Manny Ramirez
CF: Carl Everett
RF: Troy O'Leary
As soon as I saw Salty I knew where this was going haha
Jasonbay44
08-15-2012, 09:58 PM
C: Salty
1B: Dick Stuart
2B: Jose Offerman
SS: Edgar Renterria
3B: Butch Hobson
LF: Manny Ramirez
CF: Carl Everett
RF: Troy O'Leary
This. + add Julio Lugo as utility infielder and goddamn, that is a pitchers dream defensively.
BOSOX11
08-16-2012, 12:18 AM
C: Sammy White
1B: Boomer Scott
2B: Bobby Doerr
3B: Frank Malzone
SS: Rico Petrocelli
LF: Yaz
CF: Tony C
RF: Dewey Evans
SoxSport
08-16-2012, 03:15 PM
LF-Yaz
CF Tris Speaker
RF Evans
1B Scott
2b Pedroia
3B Malzone
SS Nomar
C Fisk
Spitball
08-16-2012, 04:20 PM
C: Sammy White
1B: Boomer Scott
2B: Bobby Doerr
3B: Frank Malzone
SS: Rico Petrocelli
LF: Yaz
CF: Tony C
RF: Dewey Evans
I almost listed Rico Petrocelli at shortstop. He was pretty good defensively.
Tony Conigliaro though only started 25 games in center field out of 835 career games. I don't think he qualifies as a center fielder.
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