Time to give up?

[NEsportsnation]

So, the Red Sox got swept by the Jays. We are at .500 again and in last place. With most of our players back, what do we NEED TO DO to make the playoffs (for the first time since 2009).

[watsonrom]

yeah, this team isn't very good. i'd try to see if we can get any value from our pitchers, but most likely we will stand pat.

[Palodios]

Do we give up? No. No. No. Absolutely not.

Do we try to get value from short term players who could bring back value for this team? Absolutely.

[italstallianion]

I wish that I could vote for the first two options, since I think that we can still make the playoffs, however we are not going to go far, and therefore it's be more advantageous to blow everything up and really build for the future, contingent on the offers we receive of course. (Rather than giving away pieces just to give away pieces)

[SoxFanForsyth]

Time to give up? No, not by any means. This team is still extremely capable of making the wild card.

Unfortunately, at this point, I have a really bad feeling that we're going to look up at the end of the season and see an 86 win team who won the 2nd WC and think "Wow. How in God's name did we not even win 87 games this year?!?"

It just makes no sense to me at all. We have literally the exact same team as we did last season. We got rid of Lackey and Wakefield, who both posted monstrous ERA's. Our bullpen, even without Bard, Papelbon, or Bailey, still has a 3.01 ERA. That's absolutely incredible.

So how in the hell did things go so damn bad? It's inexplicable. It's impossible to explain. Part of me looks at the disgusting pitching coaches that we have and I wonder what the hell McClure is doing? Even in KC, playing in the terrible AL Central, the Royals continuously had team ERA's north of 4.40, often closer to 5.00 (4.97 in 2010). So why in the hell is he even here??? It's absolutely pathetic. Farrell was a good pitching coach because he was here before Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, etc, so he owned the pitching staff. The pitchers respected him because he was there before them. That's something that none of these other pitching coaches will have.

The solution?? Who the hell knows.

[NC Sox Fan]

I'm not giving up. There's a chance. Not a big one, but a chance.

As far as what needs to be done, pitching. Consistent quality starts from Beckett and Lester would help.

The offense is looking better since the ASB and looked great today.

Pitching pitching pitching.

[wyo-sox]

There is no reason to believe we turn things around..... but also no reason we should be struggling like we are. Still a chance we get hot over a few series and the Yanks struggle over a few.... hush we are right there. Would I bet on it...... no, have I absolutely given up, no.

[italstallianion]

I just think it'd be more beneficial to take advantage of a seller's market and benefit the farm system rather than purge it for players that would likely either leave (without draft picks) or raise the salary of the team (on a team that doesn't really have room to take on salary).

The problem in Boston is that it's hard to admit when you're defeated and when to pack it in. I think it's a lot easier for other teams because they can pack it in, have a really bad year, and take advantage of it in the draft whereas the Red Sox are constantly "good but not great" which means they won't win the World Series and are still stuck with bad draft positioning.

It's like an "all or nothing" atmosphere where the Red Sox are in the middle. They need to go one way or another while there's still time, and seeing as only 1 team wins the World Series, I'd rather punt on the season than risk losing any more and ending up stuck when it's too late to undo the mistakes.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I can't give up. The Sox are an important part of my life. Yes, things are bad now, but I have to believe in their ability to turn things around.

[wyo-sox]

I just think it'd be more beneficial to take advantage of a seller's market and benefit the farm system rather than purge it for players that would likely either leave (without draft picks) or raise the salary of the team (on a team that doesn't really have room to take on salary).

The problem in Boston is that it's hard to admit when you're defeated and when to pack it in. I think it's a lot easier for other teams because they can pack it in, have a really bad year, and take advantage of it in the draft whereas the Red Sox are constantly "good but not great" which means they won't win the World Series and are still stuck with bad draft positioning.

It's like an "all or nothing" atmosphere where the Red Sox are in the middle. They need to go one way or another while there's still time, and seeing as only 1 team wins the World Series, I'd rather punt on the season than risk losing any more and ending up stuck when it's too late to undo the mistakes.

I keep hearing this and in part I agree, my question is.... who are the buyers if we are sellers? Who on this team has GMs calling Cherries and offering quality minors? If you are a GM who on the Sox team is playing well to help you win now and has an attractive contract? I fear we are stuck.

[italstallianion]

I keep hearing this and in part I agree, my question is.... who are the buyers if we are sellers? Who on this team has GMs calling Cherries and offering quality minors? If you are a GM who on the Sox team is playing well to help you win now and has an attractive contract? I fear we are stuck.


This is a good point. I'd love to give you a specific answer, but there is so much that we don't know right now. Even with pervasive technology and shameless websites, we still only know and understand a fraction of the information behind these decisions.

My point is that with the extra wildcards, there are more playoff spots and more teams within contention. Therefore there are more teams looking for pieces (buying), and less teams trying to get rid of pieces (selling). Therefore, it's a sellers market and the buying teams competing for pieces should drive the price up.

In addition to the 6 division winners, there are 14 teams at, or within 5 games of the wildcard. That means at least 2/3 of the team should be buyers at the deadline.

[wyo-sox]

Good point. And watching Rangers Angels right now I would think either team would gamble on Beckett.

[jacksonianmarch]

They might "gamble" but right now, there are two things that hurt the sox. Beckett is paid $16 mil per yr and he is sucking ass right now. The problem is, when a player is performing, he is worth the most and you dont want to move him. When a player is struggling, you want to trade him and everyone wants to shortchange you. It's the way it is. And neither Beckett nor Lester have helped you this month

[BillBuckner]

NEVER BACK DOWN...but seriously, dont give up? Why would we?

[SemperFi Sox]

They might "gamble" but right now, there are two things that hurt the sox. Beckett is paid $16 mil per yr and he is sucking ass right now. The problem is, when a player is performing, he is worth the most and you dont want to move him. When a player is struggling, you want to trade him and everyone wants to shortchange you. It's the way it is. And neither Beckett nor Lester have helped you this month

Do a little research on Lester's road splits then come back. Only reason his value hasn't fallen.

[Scottish Red Sox Fan]

We are only 3.5 games out in the Wild Card race. Talk of giving up is crazy, there's a long way to go yet.

[jacksonianmarch]

3.5 out of the wild card isnt much. But when you are behind a ton of teams, it makes it hard

[NEsportsnation]

It is really frustrating that we are in last. I have this website that helps me put all the factors that go into the playoffs in one spot. Looking at it, it has gotten much worse over the last few days. If you want to check the site out, you can get to it out at redsoxplayoffs. webs.com.

[SoxFanForsyth]

3.5 out of the wild card isnt much. But when you are behind a ton of teams, it makes it hard

The Sox are either going to get consistent, good starting pitching from their top 3 + their deadline acquisition, and rocket up to the top of the WC pack, or they're going to get inconsistent starting pitching from their top 3 and sit at around 82-85 wins at the end of the season.

And to be completely honest, I am beyond baffled as to which way they're going to go. This next week gives them a great chance to show a little pride and beat two good teams in the Rangers and Yankees. They've definitely got the talent to do it, there's no question about that. It's just whether or not they can produce from that pool of talent.

[SoxSport]

Could be a perception, based on Youkilis, that some Sox players are not putting out right now because of internal problems with the team. In that case, there should be a pretty good market for guys like Lester and Beckett. I suspect, at least in Lester's case, that he's overweight, and has been the last two seasons in which his performance has dropped off. Look at the guy's puffy face. He and Dice-K. I doubt the Red Sox are a type of organization that monitors conditioning very closely. Papi finally got himself in shape after two declining seasons.

[jacksonianmarch]

There might be a market, but you arent getting the players you'd want back. There was a market for Youkilis, who was one yr removed from playing well. That market sucked.

[Scottish Red Sox Fan]

I doubt the Red Sox are a type of organization that monitors conditioning very closely.

I'm sure the Red Sox do monitor the players fitness but I definitely think some questions need to be asked of the staff who are in charge of the players physical conditioning. The amount of injuries we suffer, year after year, is almost ridiculous.

I know every team gets injuries but we seem to get more than most. It's hard to win when your best players spend a lot of time sitting on the bench.

[SoxFanForsyth]

There might be a market, but you arent getting the players you'd want back. There was a market for Youkilis, who was one yr removed from playing well. That market sucked.

For a guy like Lester? You sit here and preach all day about how Garza is going to net two top 100 prospects, but Lester will be sold for $.50 on the dollar. I mean do you listen to yourself?

[jung]

This next week gives them a great chance to show a little pride and beat two good teams in the Rangers and Yankees. They've definitely got the talent to do it, there's no question about that. It's just whether or not they can produce from that pool of talent.

I know that some folks looked at last year's result and focusing on the period of the 2011 season where the Sox did well determined that the team had a good foundation to build on for the 2012 season. Others saw the entirety of the 2011 season as problematic and looking at the very same team arrived at a completely different opinion about the team's chances.

So at least in my case, I did not like their 2012 chances because I did not like what I saw from 1,2 3 in the rotation and my expectations were low for those three guys. I saw Lester as slipping in major pitching categories other than innings pitched which is a very important stat for a starter. What I did not like in Lester was his demeanor on the mound....for me he was not a leader of any sort and could barely keep his own act together. Since he was slipping in other pitching categories I thought chances were good that he would lose innings pitched for 2012 and I suspect that will end up being true.

While Beckett had a pretty good 2011 and I really did not put much stock in the odd/even year thing, It was clear to me that Beckett was going through the usual mid-late career conversion from power pitcher/thrower to control/power pitcher. His biggest issue in 2011 was the one blow up inning he would often have per game and that was a direct result of not really having successfully made the conversion. He was not blowing people away with his usual regularity and when his control would go off, he got tagged. So, while I did not think much of the odd/even year thing, I thought that he would either make more progress in the transition or not and if not, would struggle. He has not made more progress. I suppose it is possible that his new found prioritizing that puts baseball seemingly behind a number of things besides his family has maybe made this transition something he simply cannot pull off. I don't think any of us are any longer looking to see his velo return to 94+ with control. I am willing to believe that if he is traded back home to Texas, he might at least turn back into a decent starting pitcher all be it, not a power pitcher.

I truly still think Buch will turn out to be the best of the three. I am grateful that he is doing as well as he is doing although I think most of us would consider his performance so far a disappointment. So while I understand why folks thought those pitchers would do better in 2012 than 2011 I just did not see it. All in the Sox 2012 starting pitching is at least as problematic as their 2011 starting pitching.

None of the three looked like a rotation leader to me leaving the Sox with nobody to fill that role either. Beckett could do it but was not interested. Neither Buch nor Lester could do it.

The 2011 offense was a brute force offense much like it is in 2012. There are far more similarities than there are differences.

So while I am not saying they cannot win games in these two tough road series coming up, in my view, they will not win games because they have shown me anything that would suggest that they will. To me, if they win games in these series it will be because they finally, after this last Jays game realized that their pants are now down around their ankles. They acknowledge to each other that the illusion is gone and they no longer make some effort to maintain it. They are a flawed team very much in need of a complete change both in their starting pitching and in the way the produce runs. If they simply do what they have been doing since the start of the season, only more of it, I don't think we will see any better results.

I don't know what to do at this point about their defense. Happy to have Ells back in that regard and that is about all I can say on the topic of Sox defense.

[jung]

This next week gives them a great chance to show a little pride and beat two good teams in the Rangers and Yankees. They've definitely got the talent to do it, there's no question about that. It's just whether or not they can produce from that pool of talent.

I know that some folks looked at last year's result and focusing on the period of the 2011 season where the Sox did well determined that the team had a good foundation to build on for the 2012 season. Others saw the entirety of the 2011 season as problematic and looking at the very same team arrived at a completely different opinion about the team's chances.

So at least in my case, I did not like their 2012 chances because I did not like what I saw from 1,2 3 in the rotation and my expectations were low for those three guys. I saw Lester as slipping in major pitching categories other than innings pitched which is a very important stat for a starter. What I did not like in Lester was his demeanor on the mound....for me he was not a leader of any sort and could barely keep his own act together. Since he was slipping in other pitching categories I thought chances were good that he would lose innings pitched for 2012 and I suspect that will end up being true.

While Beckett had a pretty good 2011 and I really did not put much stock in the odd/even year thing, It was clear to me that Beckett was going through the usual mid-late career conversion from power pitcher/thrower to control/power pitcher. His biggest issue in 2011 was the one blow up inning he would often have per game and that was a direct result of not really having successfully made the conversion. He was not blowing people away with his usual regularity and when his control would go off, he got tagged. So, while I did not think much of the odd/even year thing, I thought that he would either make more progress in the transition or not and if not, would struggle. He has not made more progress. I suppose it is possible that his new found prioritizing that puts baseball seemingly behind a number of things besides his family has maybe made this transition something he simply cannot pull off. I don't think any of us are any longer looking to see his velo return to 94+ with control. I am willing to believe that if he is traded back home to Texas, he might at least turn back into a decent starting pitcher all be it, not a power pitcher.

I truly still think Buch will turn out to be the best of the three. I am grateful that he is doing as well as he is doing although I think most of us would consider his performance so far a disappointment. So while I understand why folks thought those pitchers would do better in 2012 than 2011 I just did not see it. All in the Sox 2012 starting pitching is at least as problematic as their 2011 starting pitching.

None of the three looked like a rotation leader to me leaving the Sox with nobody to fill that role either. Beckett could do it but was not interested. Neither Buch nor Lester could do it.

The 2011 offense was a brute force offense much like it is in 2012. There are far more similarities than there are differences.

So while I am not saying they cannot win games in these two tough road series coming up, in my view, they will not win games because they have shown me anything that would suggest that they will. To me, if they win games in these series it will be because they finally, after this last Jays game realized that their pants are now down around their ankles. They acknowledge to each other that the illusion is gone and they no longer make some effort to maintain it. They are a flawed team very much in need of a complete change both in their starting pitching and in the way the produce runs. If they simply do what they have been doing since the start of the season, only more of it, I don't think we will see any better results.

I don't know what to do at this point about their defense. Happy to have Ells back in that regard and that is about all I can say on the topic of Sox defense.

[Palodios]

For a guy like Lester? You sit here and preach all day about how Garza is going to net two top 100 prospects, but Lester will be sold for $.50 on the dollar. I mean do you listen to yourself?

They both spent several years in the AL East, they will cost roughly the same, they have roughly the same career ERA, and they both are free agents (if traded) in 2014. One has dominated this year, the other has fallen apart.

Lester will not be traded because his 2014 option is nullified if traded. So whoever trades for him will want to extend him, and that won't make sense until he rights the ship--which he can't do in the next week or so. The window to trade Jon Lester has passed, he's now worth far more to the Red Sox than to any other team, by far.

[Dublin Red]

We're not far out from the wildcard but there's too many teams between us and in the division we are in I do not see the Sox being good enough to make it, or win the WC game. Fact is we don't have a #1 this year, look at the playoff teams who make it this year I'm sure they will have a bonafide ace. There isn't any option to give up - I think our rotation will remain the same even due to the value of Lester/Beckett right now. I wouldn't mind getting something for a bullpen arm (Atchison) if it's going - we will have Bailey back for next year ready to go (not even accounting for Bard) and whoever of the outfield we can deal for something (Nava? not likely...Sweeney?)

That is my 2 cents anyway