Mike Lowell or David Ortiz?

[RWTP24]

The big question is; does Francona have the balls to sit Ortiz for good??? With the success with Mike Lowell it is time for him to step into the DH spot for good or until the Sox got out and get someone better.

I like Francona a lot, but there are about 20 or 30% of his coaching that just drives me nuts. For instance, him not taking out Beckett last night and bring in a lefty to face Hamilton. But that is a whole other issue. I really hope he steps up to the plate on this issue and make a must need switch because there are a lot of outs right now in the Sox line up.

How do you all feel on this subject?

[a700hitter]

Big Papi is not done. He will be the biggest force in the lineup before the season is done, unless the FO releases him while in panic mode.

[italstallianion]

One is a righty, the other is a lefty. Problem solved.

[YeAuldBroade]

I think the big question is SHOULD Francona sit Ortiz for good... and my answer would be NO! Big Papi's not done yet. I would platoon him and have him only hit against righties, for the time being, but it's way too early to start digging a 6 foot deep hole.

[a700hitter]

One is a righty, the other is a lefty. Problem solved.That will help take the pressure off Papi and help get him back on track. Once he's on track, if Lowell is hitting and Beltre continue to swing like a mad fool, Lowell might get some PT at 3B.

[YeAuldBroade]

That will help take the pressure off Papi and help get him back on track. Once he's on track, if Lowell is hitting and Beltre continue to swing like a mad fool, Lowell might get some PT at 3B.
Good point... Lowell definitely looked capable the one game he did play at third... although one game is just that.

[redsoxrules]

Big Papi is not done. He will be the biggest force in the lineup before the season is done, unless the FO releases him while in panic mode.

based on what ?

[RWTP24]

Big Papi is not done. He will be the biggest force in the lineup before the season is done, unless the FO releases him while in panic mode.

I really like you enthusiasm, but I really do not think so. He is not the same guy. His swing is so slow he can hit a mediocre fastball. Also, he is dropping his hands like crazy. That is an easy fix. Another thing, I believe it is so far in his head at this point, he’ll never go back to the old Papi.

[Palodios]

Papi needs to swallow his pride and accept a short stint in Triple A, despite what his contract says. He's wasting a roster spot right now, even though he's capable of great second half numbers. He should just get himself together and come back later in the season, otherwise RSN will turn on him completely.

[Dipre]

I really like you enthusiasm, but I really do not think so. He is not the same guy. His swing is so slow he can hit a mediocre fastball. Also, he is dropping his hands like crazy. That is an easy fix. Another thing, I believe it is so far in his head at this point, he’ll never go back to the old Papi.

Papi's swing has not lost velocity. Just like last year, it's a pitch recognition and adjustment issue. Late on fastballs, early on breaking pitches.

[RWTP24]

One is a righty, the other is a lefty. Problem solved.


I think the big question is SHOULD Francona sit Ortiz for good... and my answer would be NO! Big Papi's not done yet. I would platoon him and have him only hit against righties, for the time being, but it's way too early to start digging a 6 foot deep hole.

Have you guys seen him vs. righties this year? It is all the same. He is a HUGE out, so everyone is throwing the ball right down the cock and he still can't come close to hitting it. He is not stupid; he knows a fast ball is coming. Hell, has he even gotten a hit of a fastball this year, or did he get lucky and the pitchers came with an off speed pitch?

[RWTP24]

Papi's swing has not lost velocity. Just like last year, it's a pitch recognition and adjustment issue. Late on fastballs, early on breaking pitches.

I think it is the other way around. He is too slow to catch up to the fastball. Like I said before, he is not stupid; he knows that a fastball is coming. Everyone is MLB knows he can not hit a fastball; therefore, that what they are giving him.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Ortiz will turn it around. But what I think a huge part of the reason he hasn't done well is not having someone big behind him. Once Manny was gone this regression started. I think it's a mental thing with him, probably felt comfortable hitting infront of someone like Manny.

[YeAuldBroade]

Have you guys seen him vs. righties this year? It is all the same. He is a HUGE out, so everyone is throwing the ball right down the cock and he still can't come close to hitting it. He is not stupid; he knows a fast ball is coming. Hell, has he even gotten a hit of a fastball this year, or did he get lucky and the pitchers came with an off speed pitch?
With this year, just like last year and many years prior, I've seen every inning of every game.

His mechanics, confidence and attitude suck. He looks exactly as he did last spring.

[italstallianion]

Have you guys seen him vs. righties this year? It is all the same. He is a HUGE out, so everyone is throwing the ball right down the cock and he still can't come close to hitting it. He is not stupid; he knows a fast ball is coming. Hell, has he even gotten a hit of a fastball this year, or did he get lucky and the pitchers came with an off speed pitch?


I have seen him vs. righties. Unless you want Lowell playing all of the remaining games, you have to find some way to split AB's. And unless you want either one fielding, Beltre will stay at 3B. I like Ortiz's chance to recover against righties than against lefties, and Lowell and Varitek even are much more superior hitting against lefties.

[RWTP24]

Ortiz will turn it around. But what I think a huge part of the reason he hasn't done well is not having someone big behind him. Once Manny was gone this regression started. I think it's a mental thing with him, probably felt comfortable hitting infront of someone like Manny.

I guess he wasn't as good as we all thought he was. He needed someone amazing behind him to get great pitches to look at. Ever sense Manny has been gone he really have declined. I am not trying to knock Ortiz into the ground because he has been my favorite Sox for many years, but really, what did he do in Minnesota?

[a700hitter]

based on what ?Based on that his bat speed is still there. His bat comes through the zone faster than anyone on the team except for Youkilis and Petey. You don't see it on TV. It's one of those things that you see when you are up close in person. After seeing him last year in May, I went on these boards and said the same thing. I also predicted that he would come close to 30 HRs and 100 RBI, and he did. His bat speed is fine. His timing is all out of sync. His head is messed up. He's jumping at breaking pitches and waiting too long on fast balls. When he clears his head and starts reacting to the ball again instead of guessing, he will still drive the ball. He will not have the power that he used to, because he has lost some distance since the wrist injury.

[a700hitter]

Papi's swing has not lost velocity. Just like last year, it's a pitch recognition and adjustment issue. Late on fastballs, early on breaking pitches.Bingo. You have a good eye. It's not easy to see it on TV, but his bat speed is one of the best on the team. Youk's swing is shorter but not faster. Petey probably has the only faster bat.

[RWTP24]

With this year, just like last year and many years prior, I've seen every inning of every game.

His mechanics, confidence and attitude suck. He looks exactly as he did last spring.

I agree 100%.


I have seen him vs. righties. Unless you want Lowell playing all of the remaining games, you have to find some way to split AB's. And unless you want either one fielding, Beltre will stay at 3B. I like Ortiz's chance to recover against righties than against lefties, and Lowell and Varitek even are much more superior hitting against lefties.

The way I look at it, Lowell is going to hit .300 and 15 HR's and 80 or more RBI's. At this point the Sox need a little consistence.

Also, I would not mind that much if they tried Ortiz vs. righties for now, but if he continues to struggle he needs to sit.

[RWTP24]

Bingo. You have a good eye. It's not easy to see it on TV, but his bat speed is one of the best on the team. Youk's swing is shorter but not faster. Petey probably has the only faster bat.

If you guys both think this, than Ortiz is dumber than a box of rocks. Everyone on the planet knows what the pitchers are going to be to him. 90% fastballs and 10% off speed just to keep him thinking.

[a700hitter]

If you guys both think this, than Ortiz is dumber than a box of rocks. Everyone on the planet knows what the pitchers are going to be to him. 90% fastballs and 10% off speed just to keep him thinking.In the words of Hall of Famer Yogi Berra, "you can't think and hit at the same time." He needs to get back to just reacting to the pitches and not guessing.

[RWTP24]

In the words of Hall of Famer Yogi Berra, "you can't think and hit at the same time." He needs to get back to just reacting to the pitches and not guessing.

Have you played a lot of baseball?

[a700hitter]

Have you played a lot of baseball?BAseball and softball. Just stopped playing last year at age 50.

[RWTP24]

BAseball and softball. Just stopped playing last year at age 50.

Ok awesome, so off a scouting report or just by picking up what a pitchers tendencies where during a game, you never sad on a fastball or any pitch for that matter?

When you know what is coming, you know and you sit on that pitch. I love that quote, but that is just not always the case.

[a700hitter]

Ok awesome, so off a scouting report or just by picking up what a pitchers tendencies where during a game, you never sad on a fastball or any pitch for that matter?

When you know what is coming, you know and you sit on that pitch. I love that quote, but that is just not always the case..and many times when I sat on the pitch and the location I over swung and just missed it and made an out. Sure, all hitter do it, but many of the greatest of all time talk about reacting to the pitch out of the pitchers hand. That's a different kind of cat. Most guys can't do that. When Ortiz is locked in, it is clear that he is not guessing because he'll be on the breaking stuff every bit as much as the fastball. He'll do that through long ABs and throughout several games. No one can guess right that many times. Yes, there will be times when he will look for a certain pitch in a certain count, everyone does that, but he's guessing from the first pitch right now and he's jumping out all the time. I also think that his stance is too straight up and down right now. When he was hitting, my recollection is that his back leg was bent much more keeping him back on pitches. Also. he generated a lot of power from his weight shit. Maybe his knees are shot. That could be the problem. Dipre, what do you think about his stance?

[jacksonianmarch]

You are taught to sit fastball and adjust breaking pitch.

[Spudboy]

Based on that his bat speed is still there. His bat comes through the zone faster than anyone on the team except for Youkilis and Petey. You don't see it on TV. It's one of those things that you see when you are up close in person. After seeing him last year in May, I went on these boards and said the same thing. I also predicted that he would come close to 30 HRs and 100 RBI, and he did. His bat speed is fine. His timing is all out of sync. His head is messed up. He's jumping at breaking pitches and waiting too long on fast balls. When he clears his head and starts reacting to the ball again instead of guessing, he will still drive the ball. He will not have the power that he used to, because he has lost some distance since the wrist injury.

Multi-quote fail, but I agree with Dipre and a700. We had this discussion last year. Many people thought Papi was done at that point too. However, he came back and put up some pretty productive numbers.

Many people explained that as " he put up good numbers against poor pitching". That just is not the case. I don't have the link at the moment, but within the last week Chad Finn made a blog post that had all Papi's numbers last year. He broke it down to at bats against "Quality pitchers", and lesser pitchers. The numbers were the same.

Also, I recently listened to a conversation on WEEI about Papi's performance against righties and lefties. I don't know what their source was , but the breakdown was both comprehensive and startling. Contrary to public perception, Papi is actually very productive against lefties! In fact, if I recall correctly, there was a good argument that he is more productive against lefties. I know that sounds messed up, but that is what the data showed. Maybe someone with the patience (sp), skill, and know how can look this stuff up and clarify.

In any case, the Sox have $25 Mil. invested in Ortiz and Lowell. I really don't care how it plays out. I say ride the hot bat and score runs.

[Palodios]

Maybe the stats don't show that Ortiz only hit lesser pitchers, but I was there for the game on May 20th last year. That was the game he hit his first home run of the season against Brett Cecil, and well... Bay hit one, Lowell hit one, and Varitek hit two. It stuck out in my mind that Ortiz hit one of FIVE homeruns that day against extremely lousy pitching. Maybe he needs to hit against a crummy pitcher to get his head straight?

[yeszir]

Maybe the stats don't show that Ortiz only hit lesser pitchers, but I was there for the game on May 20th last year. That was the game he hit his first home run of the season against Brett Cecil, and well... Bay hit one, Lowell hit one, and Varitek hit two. It stuck out in my mind that Ortiz hit one of FIVE homeruns that day against extremely lousy pitching. Maybe he needs to hit against a crummy pitcher to get his head straight?

I'll throw myself out there and groove 55 mph fastballs to him if he gets him out of his funk.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'm supposed to buy that Ortiz is going to turn it around when he has sucked for the past 2 years and hasn't been the same since 2006?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'd like to see Lowell be the DH, but because of the running homicide our opponents have put on us I think it's in the team's best interest that V-Mart become the DH and someone like Mark Wagner be promoted to regular catcher.

[Spudboy]

Based on that his bat speed is still there. His bat comes through the zone faster than anyone on the team except for Youkilis and Petey. You don't see it on TV. It's one of those things that you see when you are up close in person. After seeing him last year in May, I went on these boards and said the same thing. I also predicted that he would come close to 30 HRs and 100 RBI, and he did. His bat speed is fine. His timing is all out of sync. His head is messed up. He's jumping at breaking pitches and waiting too long on fast balls. When he clears his head and starts reacting to the ball again instead of guessing, he will still drive the ball. He will not have the power that he used to, because he has lost some distance since the wrist injury.


I'm supposed to buy that Ortiz is going to turn it around when he has sucked for the past 2 years and hasn't been the same since 2006?

It's not like you have any say in the matter.

Spark a fatty and relax.

[a700hitter]

Maybe the stats don't show that Ortiz only hit lesser pitchers, but I was there for the game on May 20th last year. That was the game he hit his first home run of the season against Brett Cecil, and well... Bay hit one, Lowell hit one, and Varitek hit two. It stuck out in my mind that Ortiz hit one of FIVE homeruns that day against extremely lousy pitching. Maybe he needs to hit against a crummy pitcher to get his head straight?After Cecil, he hit his HRs against the following pitchers. There are some pretty good pitchers in this group ( a number of aces) and some very hard throwers:


Benson
Burnett
Sabathia
Volstad
Jurjens (6/21)
Stammen
Jurjens (6/26)
Morrow
Cahill
Hochevar
Meche
Guthrie
Breslow
Guthrie
Guardado
Nippert
Ricky Romero
Halladay
Burnett
G. Floyd (2)
McCrory
Arredondo
Rosa
Lerew
Chamberlain
Richmond

[Warren]

Lowell and Ortiz are not going anywhere. No GM in baseball would take either one....unless he wants to be looking for a new line of work. Lowell is no longer able to play everyday and with his money nobody would take. The offer of the Sox paying 95% is no longer on the table. Ortis....well enough said. He has proven he is on his way down....not to say he can't repeat last years output. But the feared clutch power guy we all loved, is no longer around. This wil be his last year with the Sox.
I see Tito doing the righty/lefty thing with them.....and go with the hot hand....when there is one.

[a700hitter]

Ortis....well enough said. He has proven he is on his way down....not to say he can't repeat last years output. But the feared clutch power guy we all loved, is no longer around. This wil be his last year with the Sox.
I see Tito doing the righty/lefty thing with them.....and go with the hot hand....when there is one.
Once a player has hit 50 HRs in a season there is usually only one way to go; however, he can probably still be productive even though he'll never be 2004-2007 Ortiz.