Sox Considering Moving Pedroia to SS

[BoSox21]

Dustin Pedroia told ESPN's Peter Gammons Monday that the Red Sox have asked him if he would be open to playing shortstop next season.

"They've asked me if I think I could play shortstop," Pedroia said. "They've put it out there and I've told them I'm all for it. I can do it." He was an All-American shortstop during his time at Arizona State and takes ground balls from the position during the season. If he can pull off the switch, it would make life much easier for the Red Sox this offseason. The market for shortstops is thin, but second baseman Orlando Hudson is available as a free agent while Dan Uggla and Brandon Phillips can reportedly be had via trade.

Rotoworld

[BSN07]

I asked if this was fee sable a few weeks ago and didn't receive much support for the idea.

But if Pedroia could be moved to SS and the Sox can acquire a 2B like Phillips it might be an interesting option.

[riverside sluggers]

Id take Phillips or Uggla gladly. Pedroia is such the pro

[BSN07]

Uggla is a bit of a butcher at 2B. But Phillips is pretty good in the field IIRC

[Dipre]

To move Pedroia to SS, they'd need to find a very good 2B and upgrade at 3B as well.

[BoSox21]

My concern about Pedroia at short is his range and, to a lesser extent, his arm. I fear the amount of seeing eye singles to left if Lowell stays at third with Pedroia at short.

[BSN07]

To move Pedroia to SS, they'd need to find a very good 2B and upgrade at 3B as well.

Which there are plenty of options.

Uggla and Phillips have been said to be available. Hudson and Lopez aren't too bad for FA options.

And we all know there are a few good 3B available. I still think Lowell will be able to man the position for 110-120 games at least. giving Youk time at 3B and Martinez time at 1B.

[BSN07]

My concern about Pedroia at short is his range and, to a lesser extent, his arm. I fear the amount of seeing eye singles to left if Lowell stays at third with Pedroia at short.

This is a concern no doubt. But I bet he wouldn't be any worse the Tejada or any other FA option for that matter.

[riverside sluggers]

This is a concern no doubt. But I bet he wouldn't be any worse the Tejada or any other FA option for that matter.

Plus better than giving 3 years/$20 or more million and a top draft pick to get Scutaro

[jacksonianmarch]

Now thats an interesting proposition. Pedroia to SS absolutely requires an upgrade at 3b. Now, we saw Youkilis over at 3b and he did a good job, but a lot of his lack of 3b type range was masked by Gonzalez just tearing shit up over at SS. And putting Lowell on that left side would be brutal. IMO, if Pedroia needs to go to SS to fill that hole, they would need a 2b with lateral range like Hudson and a 3b with lateral range like Beltre. You put an IF out there like..

1B- Youkilis
2B- Hudson
SS- Pedroia
3B- Beltre

and you will partially cover up the lack of range that Pedroia will exhibit for the position.

[a700hitter]

Uggla is a bit of a butcher at 2B. But Phillips is pretty good in the field IIRCUggla is not a "bit of a butcher." He carries a meat cleaver to the field.

[BSN07]

Now thats an interesting proposition. Pedroia to SS absolutely requires an upgrade at 3b. Now, we saw Youkilis over at 3b and he did a good job, but a lot of his lack of 3b type range was masked by Gonzalez just tearing shit up over at SS. And putting Lowell on that left side would be brutal. IMO, if Pedroia needs to go to SS to fill that hole, they would need a 2b with lateral range like Hudson and a 3b with lateral range like Beltre. You put an IF out there like..

1B- Youkilis
2B- Hudson
SS- Pedroia
3B- Beltre

and you will partially cover up the lack of range that Pedroia will exhibit for the position.

Not a bad option for an IF. I would hope they would at least check in on Brandon Phillips though.

This could all be a smoke screen to help the Sox leverage in trade discussions.

[Dipre]

Beltre, IMHO, is a sleeper to have a monster year if taken out of Safeco.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Sign Beltre to complement it (for defensive purposes, obviously), and that's one fuck of a left side of the infield. I agree with Dipre that SAFECO killed Beltre and putting him in Fenway could spike his numbers.

[BSN07]

Beltre, IMHO, is a sleeper to have a monster year if taken out of Safeco.

I also expect Beltre to put up better #'s now that he is out of Safeco.

Whether it be in Philly, St. Louis or Boston.

Is 3/27M to little or too much to offer him?

[Dipre]

I also expect Beltre to put up better #'s now that he is out of Safeco.

Whether it be in Philly, St. Louis or Boston.

Is 3/27M to little or too much to offer him?

9 per?

Too much i think.

[BSN07]

9 per?

Too much i think.

Ok, so what are you thinking, 7-8? I mean this is Boras. And Beltre made 12M last season. And fangraphs has his value for 2009 at 10.7M. And 18.7M for 2008.

[SCM33]

Orlando Cabrera has already said he is looking to move to 2B next year, curiously just a few days before Pedey has said he will gladly move to SS......just saying.....

[BSN07]

Orlando Cabrera has already said he is looking to move to 2B next year, curiously just a few days before Pedey has said he will gladly move to SS......just saying.....

I think that was more to get the Dodgers involved. But it is something to consider.

[msubulldogs21]

I've always wanted the O-Dawg to play in Boston. Be awesome to have him at 2B.

[redsoxrules]

Orlando Cabrera has already said he is looking to move to 2B next year, curiously just a few days before Pedey has said he will gladly move to SS......just saying.....

O-cab blows,.... just saying

[Paradisecity]

O-cab blows,.... just saying

Wasn't he supposedly attempting to wife-steal from the other players while he was here?

[a700hitter]

Wasn't he supposedly attempting to wife-steal from the other players while he was here?That was a problem? Didn't their wives have the opportunity to say "no' to his advances?

[Dipre]

That was a problem? Didn't their wives have the opportunity to say "no' to his advances?

Maybe the way they said no to his advances was to tell their husbands to get the "Little guy telling them he wants to fuck them to STFU and stop that".

[Keeper]

Don't know if I like this move. Pedroia is one of the best second basemen in the game. Why ruin a good thing? Does he have the range and arm strength to play short?

If they do end up moving him, getting Beltre and Hudson/Phillips is a must. That way even if Pedroia is subpar at short, you've still got a good infield.

[ehaz]

"They've asked me if I think I could play shortstop," Pedroia told ESPN's Peter Gammons. "They've put it out there, and I've told them I'm all for it. I can do it. I can't wait for [Terry Francona] to call me and ask, 'Can you do it?' I can do it. I really want to do it."

Have to love Pedroia's quote on this. I honestly believe he could be an above average shortstop. He has a good arm, decent range and a great glove, plus he was great at the position in amateur levels. Finding a second baseman will be a lot easier, the market is loaded this offseason with them. Want power? Trade for Dan Uggla. Want defense? Sign Orlando Hudson.

Hudson
Polanco
Lopez
Phillips
Uggla

Are all available. The Red Sox have a couple near all-star caliber second basemen to pick from in that group.

[ehaz]

Don't know if I like this move. Pedroia is one of the best second basemen in the game. Why ruin a good thing? Does he have the range and arm strength to play short?

If they do end up moving him, getting Beltre and Hudson/Phillips is a must. That way even if Pedroia is subpar at short, you've still got a good infield.
When he played SS at Arizona, he was named Defensive Player of the year for his conference. SO he clearly was very good defensively at that position at one point. Pedroia was a shortstop in the minors, he was moved from shortstop to second base not because of his inability to play there, but because old friend Hanley Ramirez was blocking the position.

[msubulldogs21]

When he played SS at Arizona, he was named Defensive Player of the year for his conference.

I thought it was National Defensive POTY while at Arizona State. Regardless, he clearly knew what he was doing out there.

[BoSox21]

Amazing, 5 years later and people are still clamoring for the Sox to re-acquire Cabrera

[Gom]

I asked if this was fee sable a few weeks ago and didn't receive much support for the idea.

Oh God...do you mean feasible?

Please God...it hurts....

[Dojji]

To move Pedroia to SS, they'd need to find a very good 2B and upgrade at 3B as well.

Orlando Hudson and Adrian Beltre are both free agents IIRC.

So, at third base, is Pedro Feliz.

I'd rather just run Lowrie out there at short and leave one of our most valuable players right where he is. There's something to be said for changing things up, but when fixing an engine, one of the imperatives is not to break anything that actually still works.

[Dipre]

Orlando Hudson and Adrian Beltre are both free agents IIRC.

So, at third base, is Pedro Feliz.

I'd rather just run Lowrie out there at short and leave one of our most valuable players right where he is. There's something to be said for changing things up, but when fixing an engine, one of the imperatives is not to break anything that actually still works.

Lowrie.Can.Not.Stay.Healthy.

[jamestcusa]

that would make some room for some more bats in the line up so why not?

[Emmz]

Orlando Hudson and Adrian Beltre are both free agents IIRC.

So, at third base, is Pedro Feliz.

I'd rather just run Lowrie out there at short and leave one of our most valuable players right where he is. There's something to be said for changing things up, but when fixing an engine, one of the imperatives is not to break anything that actually still works.

If he can play SS, it would be pretty awesome, because we could explore 2B and 3B options, rather than SS and 3B options. I think that his past record proves that he has what it takes to play the position well. It could really, really help. I actually like this idea.

[Emmz]

Lowrie.Can.Not.Stay.Healthy.

This as well.

[CoachC.]

"When the idea of moving back to shortstop was floated to me, I welcomed it," says Pedroia. "I'm excited. Tell Derek (Jeter) to enjoy the gold glove and silver slugger awards while he can. Obviously, I'm not serious about the fun I have with Derek, but I'm never stopping believing in the goal. I believe I can play shortstop and help get the Red Sox back where they belong."

Was there even a chance AT ALL he would say no?

[Dipre]

Was there even a chance AT ALL he would say no?

He'd probably welcome the idea of catching and pitching too.

Kid's a true gamer.

[Dojji]

Lowrie.Can.Not.Stay.Healthy.

Eh, all his problems hail back to one injury. I'm not going to write the guy's whole career off because of one forearm fracture that didn't heal as fast as we wanted it to. We all know how tricky forearm fractures are.

the appropriate respnse to injury issues is to stockpile depth (guys like Tug Hulett or Nick Green), not give up on the guy entirely.

[redsoxrules]

Orlando Hudson and Adrian Beltre are both free agents IIRC.

So, at third base, is Pedro Feliz.

I'd rather just run Lowrie out there at short and leave one of our most valuable players right where he is. There's something to be said for changing things up, but when fixing an engine, one of the imperatives is not to break anything that actually still works.

that's a great idea , lets just give it to someone who cant stay healthy

[Dipre]

Eh, all his problems hail back to one injury. I'm not going to write the guy's whole career off because of one forearm fracture that didn't heal as fast as we wanted it to. We all know how tricky forearm fractures are.

the appropriate respnse to injury issues is to stockpile depth (guys like Tug Hulett or Nick Green), not give up on the guy entirely.

This is failthought.

The FO plans to start Lowrie in AAA and take him slow until he shows he's healthy. Hulett and Green both suck, and they want to ensure a healthy starter for the SS and that is what logic would dictate.

And it's not a forearm fracture, it's the wrist, which is a much more serious and complicated injury.

They trusted him with the position last year and look what happened, they learned from that mistake, so why would you advocate they repeat it?

[Dojji]

Thought it was actually close to the wrist, but that the actual injury was on the forearm. Read that once when I was lurking at Soxprospects.

[Dipre]

Thought it was actually close to the wrist, but that the actual injury was on the forearm. Read that once when I was lurking at Soxprospects.

Jed Lowrie placed on disabled list (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/jed_lowrie_to_b.html)


The Red Sox today placed shortstop Jed Lowrie on the 15-day disabled list with ulnar neuritis in his left wrist.

[ehaz]

Orlando Hudson was just denied an arbitration offer from the Dodgers. The type A free agent won't cost a draft pick anymore.

[TheKilo]

I don't see the benefit of making a hole to plug another. I'd rather just keep 2b the strength it has been the last three years.

[Dipre]

I don't see the benefit of making a hole to plug another. I'd rather just keep 2b the strength it has been the last three years.

I think this is a worst-case scenario.

[Wells]

I like the idea.. I don't think it'll actually happen but I am into interesting..

Shit, we won 95 games with shitty SS's last year and at least Pedroia can stop a fucking ground ball.. there are better short term fixes @ 2b then at SS via trade or FA.. I say fucking go for it .. I really don't see 2010 as the year we go balls out again anyway

[Dojji]

I don't see the benefit of making a hole to plug another. I'd rather just keep 2b the strength it has been the last three years.

you make one hole to plug another, when the hole you plug is harder to fill than the one you make.

[Spudboy]

It won't happen.

This is just camouflage.

I don't know what Theo has in mind. I only hope he makes a prudent move (not signing Scutaro for 2-3 years).

[example1]

It won't happen.

This is just camouflage.

I don't know what Theo has in mind. I only hope he makes a prudent move (not signing Scutaro for 2-3 years).

I would guess that he has a number of scenarios in mind. These likely include verious possibilities about the SS position and are dependant on how the market plays out.

It is possible that they won't get anyone for SS and will prefer to look at getting another 2B if those options are better. I think that would be last on his list, behind players like Hanley Ramirez and even Marco Scutaro, but at the end of the offseason decent 2B might be undervalued.

If they really think Pedroia can man SS then that opens a lot of possibilities for them moving forward. I don't think he would be ideal, but with the right 2B it could work out.

[jacksonianmarch]

2Bs are definitely easier to come by this day and age. Its kinda funny, a few yrs back, a good SS was a dime a dozen. Now, its reverted back to the way it used to be.

If I had to make a prediction, I think the sox still sign Scutaro. I doubt they make a deal for Uggla, seeing as it would take away prospects that are being groomed for either big league use or trade chippage. And since Uggla really is a 1b playing 2b. Same can be said for Phillips from a trade chip standpoint. I do think the sox kick every tire available though and might make a deal for one of the above guys if they decide that Mauer, Gonzalez, Johnson, Ramirez, and Halladay really wouldnt be worth the asking price

[Keeper]

I understand that SS has been an issue for the Sox for awhile now, but at best this seems like a short term solution, and not one I would readily endorse.

Pedroia has established himself as one of the premiere two-way second basemen in the game. The last time he played SS was in 2006. Three years is a large gap. And if he struggles at SS, I'll bet he tries to overcompensate at the plate.

The FO put themselves in this position, and now they want Pedroia to bail them out. If they had any sense, they would leave him alone.

[a700hitter]

If Pedroia moves to SS would the Sox attempt to plug the 2B hole by signing Figgins? He couldman 2B for one year and slide over to 3B afterward. I hate the idea of Adrian Beltre.

[BSN07]

Well if worst come to worst, Pedroia can play SS for 2 years then flip back to 2B when/if Iglesias is ready to take over. Or maybe someone becomes available over the next two years that isn't available now.

Brandon Phillips would be ideal. Good bat, great glove and makes enough to where it might lower the cost in prospects. Cincy was mentioned earlier this off season as wanting to cut payroll.

Maybe the Sox take on Phillips and Harang. Harang might be a decent 5th starter. He makes 12.5M next season and 12.75 with a 2M buy out in 2011. Phillips is under team control for 3 years. His price tag jumps after next season though from 6.75M to 11M in 2011. He has a 12M option for 2012 with a 1M buy out.

That's a decent amount of cash and could really relieve the Reds. So I doubt it would take a big package of prospects.

[Dipre]

Orlando Hudson.

Better D, reliable bat, would only cost money.

[BSN07]

Orlando Hudson.

Better D, reliable bat, would only cost money.

I could get on for O Dawg as well. The Sox might be able to get him on a 2 year deal, with maybe an option.

Although I am concerned about why the Dodgers were starting Belliard over him. Was he injured? Not hitting? Being a douche?

[TheMino007]

I too am weary of Beltre, there is no offensive upside over him compared to Lowell, but if Pedrioa is going to be moved to SS we are going to need more range on the left side of the infield, something that Beltre would provide. I'm not sure if I like the idea of the Sox filling one hole by plugging one guy in there leaving another whole to fill. All these rumors for Uggla and Philiips would make more sense if this transition by Pedrioa was made, but at what cost would we have to get these guys? I think Phillips could get acquired for not that bad of a price in terms of prospects if the Sox took a relatively large salary starter like Harang or Arroyo.

[riverside sluggers]

Haha watching mlb network's hot stove. A quote from Dustin Pedroia

"Tell Derek Jeter to enjoy his gold glove and silver slugger awards while he can."

[BSN07]

I too am weary of Beltre, there is no offensive upside over him compared to Lowell,

You can not be serious...

Ok... I guess we are just ignoring the effects of Safeco now or even better let's ignore the effect playing at Fenway could have for a RH power hitter. OMG what were we thinking... Idiots.... the whole lots of us....<_<

Do you seriously know anything outside of what you see on "Baseball Tonight"?

[Dojji]

Beltre didn't play all his games at Safeco, he strikes out an obscene amount, and he doesn't walk that much.

I, too, an wary of Beltre. He strikes me as exactly the kind of player who will win a contract based on a few hot streaks and then fail to live up to it for the rest of his time -- a sort of reverse JD Drew, if you will.

[Dipre]

I too am weary of Beltre, there is no offensive upside over him compared to Lowell, but if Pedrioa is going to be moved to SS we are going to need more range on the left side of the infield, something that Beltre would provide. I'm not sure if I like the idea of the Sox filling one hole by plugging one guy in there leaving another whole to fill. All these rumors for Uggla and Philiips would make more sense if this transition by Pedrioa was made, but at what cost would we have to get these guys? I think Phillips could get acquired for not that bad of a price in terms of prospects if the Sox took a relatively large salary starter like Harang or Arroyo.


Beltre didn't play all his games at Safeco, he strikes out an obscene amount, and he doesn't walk that much.

I, too, an wary of Beltre. He strikes me as exactly the kind of player who will win a contract based on a few hot streaks and then fail to live up to it for the rest of his time -- a sort of reverse JD Drew, if you will.

This is why you need to do actual research before saying something like that. Neither of you know what you're talking about.

A) So there is virtually no offensive upside from Beltre to Lowell? Last i checked, defense is an integral part of a championship team, Beltre can provide the same level of offense and GG defense.

B ) So he doesn't play all his games at Safeco? Did you take the time to check his splits before making that claim? And also, does Lowell walk AT ALL? No, but Beltre should hit for more power while, as stated above, provide better defense.

His splits from 2007-2009:

Home: .703 OPS.

Road: .813 OPS.

C) His highest strikeout number is 118, how does that constitute an obscene amount?

2007-2009 K totals:

104

90.

74.

I don't mean to be a dick, but seriously, check the stats.

[Gom]

Haha watching mlb network's hot stove. A quote from Dustin Pedroia

"Tell Derek Jeter to enjoy his gold glove and silver slugger awards while he can."

Finish the quote:


"When the idea of moving back to shortstop was floated to me, I welcomed it," Pedroia told ESPN.com. "I'm excited. Tell Derek [Jeter] to enjoy the Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards while he can. Obviously, I'm not serious about the fun I have with Derek, but I'm never stopping believing in the goal. I believe I can play shortstop and help get the Red Sox back where they belong."

Your quote fragment makes him look like an asshole. His full quote does not.

I can't believe I'm defending a fucking Red Sox.

[TheMino007]

Beltre has something like a .320 OBP, since that is the stat the FO lives and dies by apparently, I don't think they feel he would be good fit in Boston. Playing at Fenway will spike his numbers, but there is still not much more upside that Beltre has over Lowell.

Anyway, can Chone Figgnins still play Shortstop?

[Dipre]

Beltre has something like a .320 OBP, since that is the stat the FO lives and dies by apparently, I don't think they feel he would be good fit in Boston. Playing at Fenway will spike his numbers, but there is still not much more upside that Beltre has over Lowell.

Anyway, can Chone Figgnins still play Shortstop?

.325 lifetime.

However, the power potential and defensive capabilities speak volumes about his potential "Fit" in Boston. He's also pretty healthy except for his (literally) busting a nut last year.

Figgins should not be a possibility for the Sox, he's going to get a lot of money and a lot of years and will become a liability at any position soon.

[BSN07]

Beltre has something like a .320 OBP, since that is the stat the FO lives and dies by apparently, I don't think they feel he would be good fit in Boston. Playing at Fenway will spike his numbers, but there is still not much more upside that Beltre has over Lowell.

Anyway, can Chone Figgnins still play Shortstop?

Lowell's OBP has been .337 and .338 the last two years. So in a 1000 AB's Lowell will get on base 18 more times then Beltre. OMG how could the Red Sox ever survive such an offensive drop off? Let's ignore also Beltre is what 5 years younger, has more power potential and at this point is probably the better defender in the field.

Figgins SS really? You don't think he would have already been marketing himself as one if that was the case? It would probably double(exaggeration) his contract demands.

[Dipre]

Lowell's OBP has been .337 and .338 the last two years. So in a 1000 AB's Lowell will get on base 18 more times then Beltre. OMG how could the Red Sox ever survive such an offensive drop off? Let's ignore also Beltre is what 5 years younger, has more power potential and at this point is probably the better defender in the field.

Figgins SS really? You don't think he would have already been marketing himself as one if that was the case? It would probably double(exaggeration) his contract demands.

Not only that, but please check his OBP away from Safeco.

If you adjust for what would be regular home/road splits for a player, Beltre is a fantastic candidate for a monster year at a stadium like Fenway or Citizens Bank Park.

[Dojji]

A) So there is virtually no offensive upside from Beltre to Lowell? Last i checked, defense is an integral part of a championship team, Beltre can provide the same level of offense and GG defense.

That's the reason I don't reject the idea out of hand. Add to that Beltre's demonstrated ability to have a monster year and it is appealing. But you can't pretend the guy has been anything resembling consistent.


B ) So he doesn't play all his games at Safeco? Did you take the time to check his splits before making that claim? And also, does Lowell walk AT ALL? No, but Beltre should hit for more power while, as stated above, provide better defense.

Lowell doesn't walk much, but he hits for high enough average to maintain a tolerable OBP. The last time Beltre had an OBP as good as Lowell's career average was his amazing, mostrous, no-way-in-hell-he-does-it-again breakout season in 2004.


His splits from 2007-2009:

Home: .703 OPS.

Road: .813 OPS.

He did the same thing with the Dodgers, and Dodger Stadium is on the big side, but not exactly as big as Safeco National Park.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=beltrad01&year=2002&t=b
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=beltrad01&year=2003&t=b
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=beltrad01&year=2004&t=b

As you can see, even in his breakout year, Beltre hit better on the road. I don't think you can blame all of that on playing 19 games at pre-humidor Coors Field either.

So this is hardly a phenomenon reserved to his Mariners days. the guy is apparently just a road warrior. And before you try that hard to put your interpretation on the numbers, and especially before you mock people about the numbers, you might try looking at ALL of them.


C) His highest strikeout number is 118, how does that constitute an obscene amount?

2007-2009 K totals:

104

90.

74.

I don't mean to be a dick, but seriously, check the stats.

And take a look at his bb/k while you're at it. Rarely better than 1:3. The guy walks maybe 40 tiimes a season in a good year.

[Dipre]

That's the reason I don't reject the idea out of hand. Add to that Beltre's demonstrated ability to have a monster year and it is appealing. But you can't pretend the guy has been anything resembling consistent.

However, he's healthy, and can play defense.


Lowell doesn't walk much, but he hits for high enough average to maintain a tolerable OBP. The last time Beltre had an OBP as good as Lowell's career average was his amazing, mostrous, no-way-in-hell-he-does-it-again breakout season in 2004.

Throw Lowell at Safeco for 81 games then get back to me.


He did the same thing with the Dodgers, and Dodger Stadium is on the big side, but not exactly as big as Safeco National Park.

Take the road splits, and then adjust home splits thinking he was playing at Fenway.

You don't see it yet?


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=beltrad01&year=2002&t=b
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=beltrad01&year=2003&t=b
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=beltrad01&year=2004&t=b

As you can see, even in his breakout year, Beltre hit better on the road. I don't think you can blame all of that on playing 19 games at pre-humidor Coors Field either.

So this is hardly a phenomenon reserved to his Mariners days. the guy is apparently just a road warrior. And before you try that hard to put your interpretation on the numbers, and especially before you mock people about the numbers, you might try looking at ALL of them.

Dodger stadium is murder on RHH as well,the fact that you're mentioning yet another enormous stadium doesn't help your argument, it helps mine. The only thing you need to interpret is the potential in taking the guy out of Safeco (Or Dodger stadium for that matter) and putting them in righty-friendly Fenway with his road splits.

It's also hilarious you're telling me to go look at "All the numbers" when you hadn't looked at any of them and just "stated your mind" in the first place.


And take a look at his bb/k while you're at it. There's bad, and then there's Beltre bad. The guy walks maybe 30 tiimes a season in a good year.

Save-face attempt.

Your point was he struck out an "Obscene amount of times", i looked up the stats and concluded otherwise. What does his k/bb have to do with anything?


You hype every shitty player in the universe (Nick Green) but when presented with a good player that might be realistically acquired and would help improve the ballclub (Tex, Beltre) you have an objection.

What is wrong with you?

[jacksonianmarch]

Beltre is a wild card. He is coming off an injury that limited him to 111 games and divided his manhood in half. Now, one could hope and wish on a prayer that he returns to his 2004 form when he had an OPS over 1 and hit 48 homers. But I have to think that that player is long gone.

He's been in the bigs for 11 full seasons. He's had an OPS over .800 3 times (..835, .801, 1.017). He's put up 20 homers or more 7 times with one season at 19. He's walked 50PAs or more only 4 times in his career and has K'd in over 100ABs 5 times. His BA has been over .280 twice in his career, the last being his ridiculous 2004 season.

So, he is what he is. He's had chronic injuries that he can play through (his ankles have been operated on a few times now) and he's had one big injury that shouldnt be chronic (contused testicle). He plays a good D. He's good for a line of .265 20HR 85RBI regularly with an OPS in the high .700s. In Fenway, maybe he's .275 25HR 90RBI with an OPS right around .800. He wont all of a sudden regain 2004 form by ballpark alone. But at the same time, his D plus his O makes him valuable as a bottom third of the order stick in the lineup.

[Dipre]

Beltre is a wild card. He is coming off an injury that limited him to 111 games and divided his manhood in half. Now, one could hope and wish on a prayer that he returns to his 2004 form when he had an OPS over 1 and hit 48 homers. But I have to think that that player is long gone.

He's been in the bigs for 11 full seasons. He's had an OPS over .800 3 times (..835, .801, 1.017). He's put up 20 homers or more 7 times with one season at 19. He's walked 50PAs or more only 4 times in his career and has K'd in over 100ABs 5 times. His BA has been over .280 twice in his career, the last being his ridiculous 2004 season.

So, he is what he is. He's had chronic injuries that he can play through (his ankles have been operated on a few times now) and he's had one big injury that shouldnt be chronic (contused testicle). He plays a good D. He's good for a line of .265 20HR 85RBI regularly with an OPS in the high .700s. In Fenway, maybe he's .275 25HR 90RBI with an OPS right around .800. He wont all of a sudden regain 2004 form by ballpark alone. But at the same time, his D plus his O makes him valuable as a bottom third of the order stick in the lineup.

What exactly are you trying to say?

When did i ever imply he would "Return to '04 form".

This is what i said:

A) If taken out of Safeco, Beltre could improve his numbers across the board, specially at Fenway or Citizens Bank.

B ) The Sox need defense, Lowell can't provide it, Beltre can.

Can you debate either of those points?

[jacksonianmarch]

No, I cannot. I think he'd be a better overall value than Lowell.

[Dipre]

No, I cannot. I think he'd be a better overall value than Lowell.

That's all i'm trying to convey here.

[jacksonianmarch]

No problem.

[Dojji]

Meh, I feel the difference is minor, but there's no way I can convey that to you in a way you'll actually agree with. personally, I think our next longerm 3B is Youks.

[Dipre]

Meh, I feel the difference is minor, but there's no way I can convey that to you in a way you'll actually agree with. personally, I think our next longerm 3B is Youks.

I would agree with you if the difference (defensively) between Beltre, Youkilis and Lowell wasn't so massive.

Defensively:

Beltre>>>>>>>>Youk>>>>>>>Lowell.

Offensively:

Youk>>>>>>>>Beltre= Lowell.

Notice the point?

[Dojji]

I noticed the point where that's dead wrong. Even dealing with a chronic hip injury, Lowell has been a better hitter for average and OBP than Beltre and their power has been roughly equal.

Also this is the first year where Lowell's D has even been bad. Even gimping around 3B for half the year in 2008 he still put up decent season numbers defensively. He might not have good range but Lowell is smart, aggressive and handsy, and he positions well -- a lot like Alex Gonzalez at short, who also doesn't have the greatest range but makes up for it well. With a full offseason to work on rehabbing that hip, I don't think it's totally insane to expect Lowell to regain at least some of his defense next year.

[Dipre]

I noticed the point where that's dead wrong. Even dealing with a chronic hip injury, Lowell has been a better hitter for average and OBP than Beltre and their power has been roughly equal.

Also this is the first year where Lowell's D has even been bad. Even gimping around 3B for half the year in 2008 he still put up decent season numbers defensively. He might not have good range but Lowell is smart, aggressive and handsy, and he positions well -- a lot like Alex Gonzalez at short, who also doesn't have the greatest range but makes up for it well.

How about this?

Why don't you put Lowell at Safeco field for 81 games and tell me if he's better offensively.

See, the problem with you is that you're failing to apply logic, you refuse to take things into context in order to defend an argument that is easily countered.

It's simple:

Adrian Beltre is a better overall value than Mike Lowell.

2009 RAR/WAR for Adrian Beltre (23.9, 2.4) Mike Lowell (11.9,1.2) they were both injured, lost a chunk of games, and with Beltre playing half his games as Safeco, his performance was still more valuable than Lowell's.

[Dojji]

You keep holding onto Safeco as your lifeline. You ahead and do that. Personally I think you're badly overstating the effects of park factors. Other than the really insane ones, like NYS on leftanded hitters, or pre-humdor Coors, the effects of stadium on offense tend to get lost in the noise.

It's amazing that every player you want to bring to the Sox tends to play in outer space with walls 500 feet from home plate.

[ORS]

So, what you are saying is, despite Beltre being the superior defender now, that doesn't count against Lowell because he was better in the past......this being in a discussion about who will be better....now. Really?

Then, to the other point, Dipre is saying the park will have some impact on the offensive numbers, making them roughly equivalent. He's right. Aside from his very good '07, Lowell has been about a 105 OPS+ hitter in Boston, and Beltre has a career 105 OPS+.

[Dipre]

You keep holding onto Safeco as your lifeline. You ahead and do that. Personally I think you're badly overstating the effects of park factors. Other than the really insane ones, like NYS on leftanded hitters, or pre-humdor Coors, the effects of stadium on offense tend to get lost in the noise.

It's amazing that every player you want to bring to the Sox tends to play in outer space with walls 500 feet from home plate. You know, it just kinda tickles my funnybone somehow.

Oh?

Allow me to further illustrate my point, since as usual, you run your mouth, but don't do the research to back it up, which tickles my MY funny bone..

2009 Park Factors Fenway and Safeco:

Safeco Field:


RUNS HR H 2B 3B BB
0.947 0.886 0.984 0.911 0.842 1.085

As you can see, Safeco field was below average in every category except BB's.

Fenway Park:

RUNS HR H 2B 3B BB
1.072 0.964 0.994 1.370 1.080 0.884

Fenway was comfortably a better hitter's park in every category except BB, even though it wasn't a "Clear hitter's park",but this doesn't include a split, of course, so the neutralizing factor is Fenway's difficulty for LHH.

HR/game is also a useful tool to asses a stadium's impact on hitters, since both home and away HR's are counted, a stadium that is comfortably below the league average could be considered a bad stadium for hitters.

Average AL stadium HR/Game: 2.24.

Fenway Park: 2.30: Just a bit above average.

Safeco Field: 1.93: Comfortably below average.

So you see, the only person clinging to a lifeline here (The lifeline of making unsubstantiated claims) is you.

When i say Safeco is hell on hitters, i've got the data to prove it, all you've got is your mouth and a hand full of air.

Again, save me the grief of having to prove you wrong and do some research before you make your claims.

Thanks.

[Gom]

Dipre...did you make up these numbers or did you actually research them? Can you quote a source? Just curious.

[BSN07]

Dipre...did you make up these numbers or did you actually research them? Can you quote a source? Just curious.

Nice attempt at turning another thread into a "Gom" bashing shit storm...<_<

[Dipre]

Dipre...did you make up these numbers or did you actually research them? Can you quote a source? Just curious.

Now i shall, as usual, destroy your "credibility".

2009 park factors. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor)

Hit tracker online stadium HR tracker. (http://www.hittrackeronline.com/stadiums.php)

See, unlike you, not only do i not make shit up, but i also know what i'm talking about.

So shut your mouth, and know your role.

[BSN07]

Now i shall, as usual, destroy your "credibility".

2009 park factors. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor)

Hit tracker online stadium HR tracker. (http://www.hittrackeronline.com/stadiums.php)

See, unlike you, not only do i not make shit up, but i also know what i'm talking about.

So shut your mouth, and know your role.

:lol:

[italstallianion]

And once again, Gom picks his head up from the molehill to namedrop himself into a thread, only to be hit with a mallet and return back to the slums of anonymity where he came from, until people forget about his shaming before he rises from the ashes sometime later.

[Dipre]

And once again, Gom picks his head up from the molehill to namedrop himself into a thread, only to be hit with a mallet and return back to the slums of anonymity where he came from, until people forget about his shaming before he rises from the ashes sometime later.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Holy shit, this is one of the best posts i have read in a while.

[BSN07]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Holy shit, this is one of the best posts i have read in a while.

Co-signed

That shit was funny :lol:

[bsox0407]

Co-signed

That shit was funny :lol:

Tri-signed:lol::lol::lol:

Hope he has fun in his cab.

[Gom]

Sorry Dipre....but I had to ask. See, you're the only one who has lied and claimed others have. That's all. A simple "no, I researched it" or "yes, you got me would have sufficed". I didn't claim you were lying, I was just asking. You're the only one here we can't be sure of.

That is all.

[Dojji]

OK, what, exactly, was that supposed to be?

[Dipre]

Sorry Dipre....but I had to ask. See, you're the only one who has lied and claimed others have. That's all. A simple "no, I researched it" or "yes, you got me would have sufficed". I didn't claim you were lying, I was just asking. You're the only one here we can't be sure of.

That is all.

Well half the board states otherwise (and i'm not claiming half the board PM'd me when it was only one guy trying to make fun of me because that would be lying, oh wait.....) so if i was you, i would check myself.

Again, you talking about credibility is like Bill Clinton talking about the benefits of being faithful while on a monogamous relationship: Complete and utter bullshit.

[bsox0407]

Sorry Dipre....but I had to ask. See, you're the only one who has lied and claimed others have. That's all. A simple "no, I researched it" or "yes, you got me would have sufficed". I didn't claim you were lying, I was just asking. You're the only one here we can't be sure of.

That is all.

Am i the only one who caught this. :lol::lol: Or am I making shit up? lolz

[Dojji]

Yeah. I mean, if the guy's going to smarm, at least he could try to post an internally consistent smarm.

[Dipre]

Yeah. I mean, if the guy's going to smarm, at least he could try to post an internally consistent smarm.

He just doesn't know when to cut his losses.

I'm running out of creative ways to school him.

You guys got any ideas?

[bsox0407]

He just doesn't know when to cut his losses.

I'm running out of creative ways to school him.

You guys got any ideas?

get in his cab and take a huge shit in it. It may improve the smell of the bullshit he is slinging.

[BSN07]

He just doesn't know when to cut his losses.

I'm running out of creative ways to school him.

You guys got any ideas?

A ball and gag come to mind...

[italstallianion]

He just doesn't know when to cut his losses.

I'm running out of creative ways to school him.

You guys got any ideas?




Probably because I used them all.

[Dipre]

Probably because I used them all.

Stop copying my style, holmes.

[Dipre]

DipreG, you're not that cool

I'm cool enough to be part of your first post.

And you're obviously an old poster coming back if you're using my old handle.

Who are you?

[BSN07]

I'm cool enough to be part of your first post.

And you're obviously an old poster coming back if you're using my old handle.

Who are you?

The plot thickens! A new mystery to unfold here at TalkSox!:lol:

[redsoxrevenge]

Don't mean to interrupt the flow of the conversation, but I don't believe that Pedroia has the range to play SS. He is a very strong defensive 2B, and they should look to find a stop gap solution at SS until Derrick Gibson, Casey Kelly, or the Cuban prospect we signed can emerge and take over long term.

[BSN07]

Don't mean to interrupt the flow of the conversation, but I don't believe that Pedroia has the range to play SS. He is a very strong defensive 2B, and they should look to find a stop gap solution at SS until Derrick Gibson, Casey Kelly, or the Cuban prospect we signed can emerge and take over long term.

Most that are for Pedroia moving to SS also said a defensive 3B would have to be brought in to supplement any range issues. If Pedroia moves to SS, I believe it spells the end of Lowell's Red Sox tenure.

[Emmz]

Don't mean to interrupt the flow of the conversation, but I don't believe that Pedroia has the range to play SS. He is a very strong defensive 2B, and they should look to find a stop gap solution at SS until Derrick Gibson, Casey Kelly, or the Cuban prospect we signed can emerge and take over long term.

Lol

[redsoxrevenge]

Lol

http://soxprospects.com/players/iglesias-jose.htm

?

[Dipre]

http://soxprospects.com/players/iglesias-jose.htm

?

The problem was you saying "That Cuban prospect we signed" instead of taking the time of looking up his name "Jose Iglesias" just like you did now that you've been called out on it.

[TheKilo]

you make one hole to plug another, when the hole you plug is harder to fill than the one you make.

That's if you are operating under the assumption that Pedroia would be a league average defensive SS.

I do not think he can do that.

[TheKilo]

If Pedroia moves to SS would the Sox attempt to plug the 2B hole by signing Figgins? He couldman 2B for one year and slide over to 3B afterward. I hate the idea of Adrian Beltre.

Beltre would be a zillion times better than Figgins because (a) he'll cost less and (b) his game won't decline rapidly over the course of his next contract.

[a700hitter]

Beltre would be a zillion times better than Figgins because (a) he'll cost less and (b) his game won't decline rapidly over the course of his next contract.It would be hard to tell if he declined.

[TheKilo]

It would be hard to tell if he declined.

Really? Figgins? The guy whose entire game is based on speed?

[a700hitter]

Really? Figgins? The guy whose entire game is based on speed?It would be hard to tell if Beltre declined, not Figgins.

[Dipre]

It would be hard to tell if Beltre declined, not Figgins.

Figgins is the type of player who does not age well.

Beltre is the exact opposite.

[TheKilo]

Don't you get it Dipre?

Figgins would SUPERCHARGE the offense.

CDiCxhtGMhc

[Dipre]

^ That is fucking hilarious.

[example1]

The funny thing about this board is that when people disagree about one player vs. another the lesser player is always painted as virtually ineffective.

Do you really believe Chone Figgins woudl be a BAD pickup for this team? I think he would be a great addition. I agree about the length and cost and that his cost will likely overvalue him, but all things being equal I'd prefer Figgins over Beltre.

All things not being equal I think there are good arguments for Beltre, or neither.

[Dipre]

The funny thing about this board is that when people disagree about one player vs. another the lesser player is always painted as virtually ineffective.

Do you really believe Chone Figgins woudl be a BAD pickup for this team? I think he would be a great addition. I agree about the length and cost and that his cost will likely overvalue him, but all things being equal I'd prefer Figgins over Beltre.

All things not being equal I think there are good arguments for Beltre, or neither.

The funny thing here is you're talking like you can have Figgins for anything less than top FA money (9 mill +) while losing a draft pick, and him declining over the life of the contract, which will probably exceed 3 years.

Beltre can probably be had on a two-year deal with an option, cheaper, and with higher potential to produce overall while not costing a draft pick.

[Spudboy]

The funny thing here is you're talking like you can have Figgins for anything less than top FA money (9 mill +) while losing a draft pick, and him declining over the life of the contract, which will probably exceed 3 years.

Beltre can probably be had on a two-year deal with an option, cheaper, and with higher potential to produce overall while not costing a draft pick.

This makes sense.

Neither player will likely be signed by the Sox, however.

We need a shortstop.

[Dipre]

This makes sense.

Neither player will likely be signed by the Sox, however.

We need a shortstop.

Miguel Tejada was not offered arbitration.

[Spudboy]

Miguel Tejada was not offered arbitration.

I noticed.

I'm in for 1-2 years.

[Dipre]

I noticed.

I'm in for 1-2 years.

35 doubles and 20 homers easy.

[BSN07]

And the Sox sign Scutaro. End thread. Exit stage right.

[redsoxrevenge]

The problem was you saying "That Cuban prospect we signed" instead of taking the time of looking up his name "Jose Iglesias" just like you did now that you've been called out on it.

He is Cuban isn't he? There was no intent of racism, which would be impossible because Cuban is a nationality.

[Dipre]

He is Cuban isn't he? There was no intent of racism, which would be impossible because Cuban is a nationality.

It's not racism.

It's not taking the time to actually look up his name.

Get it?

[Dojji]

Dipre's on a "do the research" bender at the moment. He seems to feel that taking a second to go look up the name isn't so difficult that drawing a blank on it should be easily excused.

Personally I think he's got splinters from the stick up his butt, but that's just MHO.

[redsoxrevenge]

It's not racism.

It's not taking the time to actually look up his name.

Get it?

I'm sorry for offending you.

[Dipre]

Dipre's on a "do the research" bender at the moment. He seems to feel that taking a second to go look up the name isn't so difficult that drawing a blank on it should be easily excused.

Personally I think he's got splinters from the stick up his butt, but that's just MHO.

Homoerotic references, watches Spongebob, gets emotional and cries.....

Pink T-shirts in his wardrobe, perhaps?

Yes, the signals are clear.

http://www.utdallas.edu/~awa021000/images/gaydar.PNG

Btw, do your fucking research instead of running your mouth like an idiot k?

[Dipre]

I'm sorry for offending you.

Oh no.

I'm not offended.

Remember, it was Emmz who "Lol'd" and you asked why. I'm just trying to explain the reason. Don't listen to that assclown Doiji.

[Dojji]

Homoerotic references, watches Spongebob, gets emotional and cries.....

Pink T-shirts in his wardrobe, perhaps?

Yes, the signals are clear.


Really mature, Dipre. I suppose I could say it takes one to know one, but then I'd be you, and I can't have that.

[redsoxrevenge]

So, about Scuturo.... Bad deal, huh?

[Dipre]

Really mature, Dipre. I suppose I could say it takes one to know one, but then I'd be you, and I can't have that.

*Yawn*

Listen, champ, you come in here running your mouth like a fucking douchebag when i was just trying to explain something to the guy without offending him or anything of the sort, you come in, and say i have a "stick up my ass". You got what was coming to you, fruitcake.

[Dipre]

So, about Scuturo.... Bad deal, huh?

I'm running my "He's gonna suck" chant all through the life of the deal.

[Dojji]

Of course you are.

I don't think he's going to suck. He's probably going to be below average though. And I'm certainly not going to be going to bat for him that much. I'm quite disappointed Theo couldn't get at least a little more creative.

[Dipre]

Of course you are.

I don't think he's going to suck. He's probably going to be below average though. And I'm certainly not going to be going to bat for him that much. I'm quite disappointed Theo couldn't get at least a little more creative.

Indeed, i am.

I honestly think he cashed in on his career year, and he's going to experience age-related decline over the life of his deal.

I honestly hope he makes me eat 100 pounds of crow, but the realist in me thinks otherwise.