Related note to W.S. celebration

[Lester82]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4632491

stay smart, NY. LOL

Wow - whomever was doing this should be fired from their jobs. Identity theft, not cool...

[bsox0407]

yeah that one was stupid. read that one on Fark earlier. Parade also showed not only how stupid the fans are but how gay A-rod is.

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae11/bsox0407/6a0115709f071f970b0120a65fc6d5970b-.jpg

[Lester82]

Seriously?

Is he really wearing a fedora hat or whatever? That's the gayest thing since Papelbon's river dance in his undershorts.

[Dipre]

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae11/bsox0407/6a0115709f071f970b0120a65fc6d5970b-.jpg

Lol the hat.

Finally we have something that completely overpowers Papelbon's faggotry.

[Christian Snyder]

What do you expext from people in NY City?



BTW, A-Rod, that's the gayest Fedora I've ever seen.

[RedSox2737]

as my daughter called it: The Yankees ' gay pride parade.........check out the hat on gay-rod......looooserrrrrr

[RedSox2737]

p.s. maybe that was a sox fan chucking the t.p. at a-roid..........go sox

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I didn't even know that was A-Rod at first, it just looks like some old cracked out wino

[yankees228]

Boy, I'm disappointed in you guys.

No complaints that Teixeira enjoyed Jay-Z's song.

No complaints that Jeter was wearing sun glasses.

No complaints the Girardi mentioned next year.

No complaints that Sabathia was smiling.

No complaints that Mitre was on a float.

No complaints the Cervelli had a suit on.

No complaints that Posada had a jacket on.

No complaints that Rivera was with his family.

No complaints that Burnett waved to the crowd.

No complaints that Matsui was on the first float.

No complaints that Swisher was the first player called to get his key.

I guess you guys are just getting lazy these days.

[yankees228]

And I heard, from a very reliable source, that A-Rod and Jeter had sex in an empty office in City Hall following the parade. What a fucking faggot that guy is! HOMO!!!!! GAY-ROD!!!!!!

Get it? His nickname is A-Rod, and the letter A is in the word gay. Also, if you sound the letter out, it's "aye", which rhymes with "gay", so I can replace the "A" in A-Rod, with the word "gay", to create gay-rod. GAY-ROD!!!!!! He is just so darn gay...

And, I heard an unconfirmed report that, about halfway through their GAY sex session, the entire Yankee team joined in to create one, huge, GAY orgy. It was just so GAY. GAY. GAY. GAY. GAY! GAY-ROD!!!!!!!

[Wells]

I'll be happy with "Go Away-Rod"

[Dipre]

Boy, I'm disappointed in you guys.

No complaints that Teixeira enjoyed Jay-Z's song.

No complaints that Jeter was wearing sun glasses.

No complaints the Girardi mentioned next year.

No complaints that Sabathia was smiling.

No complaints that Mitre was on a float.

No complaints the Cervelli had a suit on.

No complaints that Posada had a jacket on.

No complaints that Rivera was with his family.

No complaints that Burnett waved to the crowd.

No complaints that Matsui was on the first float.

No complaints that Swisher was the first player called to get his key.

I guess you guys are just getting lazy these days.

Nope.

Just the "Hat of faggotry".

[Lester82]

Was that a Yankee fan that just passed through this thread?

I hope your social security number wasn't on any of those documents tossed out. Let's pray it was just Jay Z's or Kate Hudson's...

[Dipre]

Was that a Yankee fan that just passed through this thread?

I hope your social security number wasn't on any of those documents tossed out. Let's pray it was just Jay Z's or Kate Hudson's...

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:

[yankees228]

Was that a Yankee fan that just passed through this thread?

I hope your social security number wasn't on any of those documents tossed out. Let's pray it was just Jay Z's or Kate Hudson's...

Who cares? A-Rod is gay. Gay-Rod!

And I don't get the signature?

[a700hitter]

No complaints that Rivera was with his family.
.He should have been home with his family swimming in his electrifried pool.

[RedSox2737]

yankees suck

[RedSox2737]

Joba-the-Hut looks like babe ruth

[a700hitter]

Joba-the-Hut looks like babe ruthAll bloated degenerate drunks look like Babe Ruth.

[Divinity]

Seriously?

Is he really wearing a fedora hat or whatever? That's the gayest thing since Papelbon's river dance in his undershorts.

Since when do Fedora hats make you in faggot?

I would pay big dollars to see you say that to a Mobster wearing one.

[Dipre]

Since when do Fedora hats make you in faggot?

I would pay big dollars to see you say that to a Mobster wearing one.

If you find me a mobster who wears one, i'll call him a faggot.

[Divinity]

If you find me a mobster who wears one, i'll call him a faggot.

That can be arranged, I know a Lobster thats part of the local Mafia around here.
http://www.odd-fishing.net/images2/lobstermobster.jpg

[Dipre]

That can be arranged, I know a Lobster thats part of the local Mafia around here.
http://www.odd-fishing.net/images2/lobstermobster.jpg

That lobster is a fucking faggot.

[bsox0407]

That lobster is a fucking faggot.

AKA A-rod. :lol::lol:

[Tyler Durden]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4632491

stay smart, NY. LOL

Wow - whomever was doing this should be fired from their jobs. Identity theft, not cool...

Boston's finest...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjLi3AGOw9Y

[RedSox2737]

how many of those championships were you alive for? anyway, after aquiring babe ruth, the yankees went on to aquire most of the rest of the red sox for the next few years.......alot of those championships were with former red sox players.....anyone can BUY a championship....it takes heart to WIN one.......the sight of that ring doesn't bother me

[jacksonianmarch]

You are right, anyone can buy one. See every yankee championship and 2004 and 2007.

[jacksonianmarch]

BTW, ARod needs to lose the fedora. He looks like someone in full blown AIDS

[Dipre]

You are right, anyone can buy one. See every yankee championship and 2004 and 2007.'

Bullshit.


BTW, ARod needs to lose the fedora. He looks like someone in full blown AIDS

This, however, is true.

[Tyler Durden]

how many of those championships were you alive for? anyway, after aquiring babe ruth, the yankees went on to aquire most of the rest of the red sox for the next few years.......alot of those championships were with former red sox players.....anyone can BUY a championship....it takes heart to WIN one.......the sight of that ring doesn't bother me

I've been alive for 7.

No one asked you if the ring bothered you.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Red Sox didnt buy 2004 or 2007? Now the second and third highest payrolled WS champs of all time. And, prior to 2004, the sox added Schilling for a pittance and prior to 2007, the sox signed Lugo, Drew, and DiceK. Don't fool yourself. The only teams in recent memory that didnt "buy" their way to a WS are the Angels of 2002, the Marlins of 2003, and the Cardinals of 2006 to some extent.

[Dipre]

The Red Sox didnt buy 2004 or 2007? Now the second and third highest payrolled WS champs of all time. And, prior to 2004, the sox added Schilling for a pittance and prior to 2007, the sox signed Lugo, Drew, and DiceK. Don't fool yourself. The only teams in recent memory that didnt "buy" their way to a WS are the Angels of 2002, the Marlins of 2003, and the Cardinals of 2006 to some extent.

Allow me to digress.

I just don't think you can compare the Sox and Yanks.

That is all.

[Lester82]

I think it's cool the Yankees went 9 years and 2 billion dollars between championships

[Divinity]

They have 375 million in revenue after all costs, money is simply just a number to them, they could pay for a 2nd top dollar team if they so desired. But as you can see money alone can't buy championships.

How much did the Sox spend in there 86 year drought?

[Dipre]

They have 375 million in revenue after all costs, money is simply just a number to them, they could pay for a 2nd top dollar team if they so desired. But as you can see money alone can't buy championships.

How much did the Sox spend in there 86 year drought?

Less than 2 billion dollars probably.

[Gom]

Allow me to digress.

I just don't think you can compare the Sox and Yanks.

That is all.

This is not only your problem, but the rest of RSN as well. You can't see that to the Twins, Brewers, Orioles, Braves, etc....we're both evil, we both buy championships, we both have unfair advantages.

Look at last year. You lost to Tampa [oh, that was fucking great, by the way]...did you realize that the difference between your payrolls was more than double their payroll?

You don't think they would be bitching? That would be relatively equivalent to us having a $450 million payroll.

You won't find a Yankee fan here who doesn't acknowledge the advantage we have. The sad thing is, we outnumber the Red Sox fans here who acknowledge the same thing. Last I checked, there were a few more Red Sox fans here than Yankee fans.

[Lester82]

Yep. 2 billion between championships. Cashman is like a member of Congress, he spends till he eventually gets something done.

[Dipre]

This is not only your problem, but the rest of RSN as well. You can't see that to the Twins, Brewers, Orioles, Braves, etc....we're both evil, we both buy championships, we both have unfair advantages.

Look at last year. You lost to Tampa [oh, that was fucking great, by the way]...did you realize that the difference between your payrolls was more than double their payroll?

You don't think they would be bitching? That would be relatively equivalent to us having a $450 million payroll.

You won't find a Yankee fan here who doesn't acknowledge the advantage we have. The sad thing is, we outnumber the Red Sox fans here who acknowledge the same thing. Last I checked, there were a few more Red Sox fans here than Yankee fans.

Sure other teams will say the Sox, Mets, and Cubs maybe have an unfair advantage due to payroll. And it's a valid gripe.

However, the only team we can all agree as to having unlimited resources and being impossible to beat when they really covet a FA is not the Sox, Mets or Cubs. It's the Yankees.

[Gom]

Sure other teams will say the Sox, Mets, and Cubs maybe have an unfair advantage due to payroll. And it's a valid gripe.

However, the only team we can all agree as to having unlimited resources and being impossible to beat when they really covet a FA is not the Sox, Mets or Cubs. It's the Yankees.

For the most part, I agree. I don't think the Yankees print money like you guys do, but if they want to get a player, they are nearly impossible to beat.

I think if Dipre and I agree on something, it's pretty much time to close the thread.

[Tyler Durden]

Red Sox fans complaining about payrolls.. it's hilarious

You gave more money to some Japanese team to TALK to Dice-K than 3 teams entire 2009 payroll.

[RedSox2737]

p.s. a fedora is the kind of hat indiana jones wears....the hat on gay-rod is a .........a.......some sort of gay hat......he wore it to a knicks game and was photo-ed with jay z,,,,,who wore a yankee hat

[BoSox21]

Red Sox fans complaining about payrolls.. it's hilarious

You gave more money to some Japanese team to TALK to Dice-K than 3 teams entire 2009 payroll.

I challenge any Yankee fan anywhere to counter a Red Sox fan's argument of "the Yankees' spending is too insane" without mentioning Dice-K and the blind bidding process

[Gom]

I challenge any Yankee fan anywhere to counter a Red Sox fan's argument of "the Yankees' spending is too insane" without mentioning Dice-K and the blind bidding process

I challenge any Red Sox fan to claim that any Yankee victory in the last 100 year wasn't bought.

I love it. This championship has turned Red Sox Nation back to what it's always been. A bunch of whining, crying babies. With few exceptions, that's what they are.

[BoSox21]

I challenge any Red Sox fan to claim that any Yankee victory in the last 100 year wasn't bought.

I only consider the last one bought, the rest are legitimate

[Gom]

I guess I stand corrected, then.

[yankees228]

I only consider the last one bought, the rest are legitimate

Why do you considering the 2009 championship illegitimate?

[Dipre]

Why do you considering the 2009 championship illegitimate?

He said bought, not illegitimate. I believe there may be some confusion there.

[yankees228]

He said bought, not illegitimate. I believe there may be some confusion there.

He said the rest are legitimate, implying that the most recent one isn't.

[Dipre]

He said the rest are legitimate, implying that the most recent one isn't.

That's why i said they may be some confusion.

[yankees228]

That's why i said they may be some confusion.

Fair enough. I'm curious which one it is.

EDIT: Not that I'm looking to have the legitimate vs. illegitimate debate, because ORS and I basically exhausted that one. If he does feel that way though, I was just curious to hear the logic behind it.

[BoSox21]

Poor choice of words then, I didn't mean to imply that the Yankees cheated to win this year. They just bought 2/3 of their playoff rotation and their top hitter. I truly admire the core they developed to win their four titles from '96 to 2000

[yankees228]

Poor choice of words then, I didn't mean to imply that the Yankees cheated to win this year. They just bought 2/3 of their playoff rotation and their top hitter. I truly admire the core they developed to win their four titles from '96 to 2000

OK, I just hope you realize that many of the players on those teams came from outside the organization.

[BoSox21]

OK, I just hope you realize that many of the players on those teams came from outside the organization.

I know but it's not like they decided to rape the free agent markets back then. Paul O'Neill wasn't a very good player at all before going to NY making him a shrewd pickup, Tino was traded for, Bernie was drafted, Jeter was drafted, Rivera was drafted, etc.

[jacksonianmarch]

BTW, does anyone know that the Yankees of 2009 had the most home-grown players on it than any other team?

[yankees228]

I know but it's not like they decided to rape the free agent markets back then. Paul O'Neill wasn't a very good player at all before going to NY making him a shrewd pickup, Tino was traded for, Bernie was drafted, Jeter was drafted, Rivera was drafted, etc.

Well, for what it's worth, Williams and Rivera weren't drafted.

They also got extraordinarily lucky with Rivera, and he's someone that I would never give the Yankees any credit for. They initially signed him as a shortstop, and came close to trading him numerous times, as a throw in piece. After coming back from surgery, his velocity spiked. The Yankees got very very lucky with the guy who turned out to be the linchpin for five championships.

Regardless, I agree, they definitely built their team in a different way. However, if you're willing to give the 90s Yankees credit for those things, I think you have to return the favor to the current Yankees. Cano, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain, and Robertson all came up through the system. Swisher was acquired via a smart trade by Cashman. A-Rod was acquired via a trade, even though they did end up having to sign him to a new contract eventually, but one of the main reasons he wanted to exclusively negotiate with the Yankees was because he was already on the team. The Yankees were able to sign Damon because the Red Sox wouldn't give him as many years as he wanted, and that decision was justified this year because of the production he had in the final year of his contract.

It's easy to throw money at guys like Teixeira, Sabathia, and Burnett. Throw Damon in there too. Only the Yankees could have an offseason like they did last year. No other team can do that. I just think that it's unfair to throw their whole championship under the word "bought" when they created this time in many different ways (ways you admitted yourself are impressive).

[Dipre]

BTW, does anyone know that the Yankees of 2009 had the most home-grown players on it than any other team?

Hahahaha.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jacksonianmarch]

Sorry, it was the AL. Colorado is the only team with a higher percentage

http://zellspinstripeblog.com/2009/08/02/the-yanks-have-homegrown-players/

[yankees228]

Hahahaha.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Dipre, I really don't think this is a fair response to Jacko's comment. Granted, if it wasn't for the Yankees' financial advantage, guys like Pettitte and Posada might not be here. I understand that. But when you're having a conversation about how the Yankees' 2009 championship team was built, Jacko's statement is completely fair and relevant.

[Dipre]

Dipre, I really don't think this is a fair response to Jacko's comment. Granted, if it wasn't for the Yankees' financial advantage, guys like Pettitte and Posada might not be here. I understand that. But when you're having a conversation about how the Yankees' 2009 championship team was built, Jacko's statement is completely fair and relevant.

Y228, it would have been if it was accurate.

[yankees228]

Y228, it would have been if it was accurate.

Well, they led the AL. When you laugh at the entire post, you're essentially disregarding his main point, which is a relevant one.

[Dipre]

Well, they led the AL. When you laugh at the entire post, you're essentially disregarding his main point, which is a relevant one.

Alfredo Aceves was a pickup from a Mexican league team, Hideki Matsui is not a Yankees homegrown player.

Re-do the math now.

[jacksonianmarch]

Wait, so Aceves didnt have to come through the NY farm system?

Matsui is a debatable one, but in their defense, they are counting DiceK to be a homegrown player too

[Dipre]

Wait, so Aceves didnt have to come through the NY farm system?

Matsui is a debatable one, but in their defense, they are counting DiceK to be a homegrown player too

Then they shouldn't.

And Aceves played several years as a professional before reaching the Yanks.

You know he doesn't apply.

My problem with this is you read the post (article?), you knew who does and doesn't apply, yet still used it as a fact.

[yankees228]

Alfredo Aceves was a pickup from a Mexican league team, Hideki Matsui is not a Yankees homegrown player.

Re-do the math now.

OK, well, that's a bad job by the source Jacko posted. But, that still leaves the Yankees with a high percentage of home grown players, relative to the other teams in the league. While Jacko's facts are wrong, his main point still has merit.

[Dipre]

OK, well, that's a bad job by the source Jacko posted. But, that still leaves the Yankees with a high percentage of home grown players, relative to the other teams in the league. While Jacko's facts are wrong, his main point still has merit.

His main point was that they led the league.We know they have a high percentage of homegrown players.

How does this take away from having the league's highest payroll and buying the top 3 FA's of last year however?

[bsox0407]

i think that Pettitte should be taken off because he left. It would be like if the mets got Roger Clemens back. Or the Sox getting Ramirez.

[yankees228]

His main point was that they led the league.We know they have a high percentage of homegrown players.

How does this take away from having the league's highest payroll and buying the top 3 FA's of last year however?

It doesn't.

I won't speak for Jacko, but what bugs me is when people just pass off this Yankees' championship as a purchase (especially concerning Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira). Those guys were a huge reason why they won, along with other free agents they've signed in the past, but there were a lot of other reasons, ones that are ignored when this championship is passed off as just being "bought".

[Coco's Disciples]

i think that Pettitte should be taken off because he left. It would be like if the mets got Roger Clemens back. Or the Sox getting Ramirez.

Yeah, or if Derek Jeter went back to the Pirates.

[yankees228]

i think that Pettitte should be taken off because he left. It would be like if the mets got Roger Clemens back. Or the Sox getting Ramirez.

This makes absolutely no sense, for so many different reasons.

1. Roger Clemens never played for the Mets.

2. Manny Ramirez didn't come up with the Red Sox.

3. As for the main point, in part, you're correct, but the Yankees were still the team that developed Pettitte.

EDIT: Now that I read it again, if you meant Hanley, my mistake. Points one and three still stand.

[bsox0407]

Yeah, or if Derek Jeter went back to the Pirates.

oh my bad i thought Clemens actually signed with the mets and then was traded to the SOx.

[bsox0407]

This makes absolutely no sense, for so many different reasons.

1. Roger Clemens never played for the Mets.

2. Manny Ramirez didn't come up with the Red Sox.

3. As for the main point, in part, you're correct, but the Yankees were still the team that developed Pettitte.

2. Hanley not manny. he was with the Indians.

[bsox0407]

How about jeff bagwell back to the sox.

[Dipre]

It doesn't.

I won't speak for Jacko, but what bugs me is when people just pass off this Yankees' championship as a purchase (especially concerning Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira). Those guys were a huge reason why they won, along with other free agents they've signed in the past, but there were a lot of other reasons, ones that are ignored when this championship is passed off as just being "bought".

Two things:

1) Do they win the WS without the $450 million dollar investment?

2) The system permits it, this has already been stated, so it's not against the rules, that, however, doesn't diminish the fact that the investment was the most important factor towards the 2009 Yankees WS championship.

[yankees228]

Two things:

1) Do they win the WS without the $450 million dollar investment?

2) The system permits it, this has already been stated, so it's not against the rules, that, however, doesn't diminish the fact that the investment was the most important factor towards the 2009 Yankees WS championship.

This isn't fair at all. They don't win the World Series without Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira. However, they also don't win the World Series without the guys they brought up through the system.

What the most important factor is, is something that is completely up for debate.

Which brings me back to my initial point that the other things that contributed to the Yankees' championship should not be dismissed.

[yankees228]

2. Hanley not manny. he was with the Indians.

Right, I corrected it with the edit. My bad. But points one and three still stand.

[Dipre]

This isn't fair at all. They don't win the World Series without Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira. However, they also don't win the World Series without the guys they brought up through the system.

What the most important factor is, is something that is completely up for debate.

Which brings me back to my initial point that the other things that contributed to the Yankees' championship should not be dismissed.

You're taking this completely out of context.

The Yankees simply don't win without the big 3 FA's.

[bsox0407]

Right, I corrected it with the edit. My bad. But points one and three still stand.

already commented on one. made a mistake. but three is true but he still left.

[yankees228]

You're taking this completely out of context.

The Yankees simply don't win without the big 3 FA's.

I'm not, because my point all along has been that, while those free agents played a big role, there were other contributing factors. I feel like those other factors are being dismissed when the entire championship is considered to be "bought".

[Dipre]

I'm not, because my point all along has been that, while those free agents played a big role, there were other contributing factors. I feel like those other factors are being dismissed when the entire championship is considered to be "bought".

No.

The factors are being taken into account. Specially Derek Jeter. But substract the Big 3 and no WS for the Bronx.

It's as simple as that.

[yankees228]

No.

The factors are being taken into account. Specially Derek Jeter. But substract the Big 3 and no WS for the Bronx.

It's as simple as that.

And I can just as easily say that without core four, no WS for the Bronx. Simple as that.

We're rehashing the same stuff. Whatever. I know how you guys feel at this point.

[Dipre]

And I can just as easily say that without core four, no WS for the Bronx. Simple as that.

We're rehashing the same stuff. Whatever. I know how you guys feel at this point.

The core four were under contract or were the Bronx's FA's.

The argument holds no water.

It was "bought" because the improvement that lead directly to the WS championship was provided by the big 3.

[bsox0407]

The core four were under contract or were the Bronx's FA's.

The argument holds no water.

It was "bought" because the improvement that lead directly to the WS championship was provided by the big 3.

Especially since they had the Home grown players the year before the Big three signing.

[yankees228]

The core four were under contract or were the Bronx's FA's.

The argument holds no water.

It was "bought" because the improvement that lead directly to the WS championship was provided by the big 3.

I don't necessarily agree with that. While Sabathia was great in the postseason, they had a guy that matched his production last year, and they had a guy that in 2006 and 2007 came very close. Burnett was just above average during the regular season, and had an up and down postseason. Teixeira was great this year, but Giambi was solid last year. Teixeira was a huge upgrade defensively, but he also had a bad postseason.

Those three guys had a big impact this year, but to make a definitive statement about them being the difference is certainly debatable. Lets take a look at other guys who contributed to making the difference.

Derek Jeter had his best year since 2006, and increased his OPS from last year by 100 points. He also showed drastic improvement defensively.

Johnny Damon had the best year of his career.

While Alex Rodriguez, mainly due to injury, didn't have as good a regular season as he usually does, he had a fantastic postseason, something that he hadn't done yet in New York (this represented one of the biggest things that separated this postseason from past postseasons).

Hideki Matsui had one of the best years of his career, and improved drastically from last year.

Jorge Posada rebounded from a year that he missed most of, and had one of the better years of his career.

Nick Swisher had a career year.

Robinson Cano had one of the best years of his career, and after posting an 86 OPS+ last year, he rebounded with a 129 OPS+ this year.

Melky Cabrera had over a 100 point OPS increase from last year.

The bullpen, during the regular season, was probably the best the Yankees have had since their previous championship years.

The three free agents, along with a lot of other guys, helped make the difference this year.

[Dipre]

That's dishonest. Specially in the case of Teixeira.

What about his defense?

What about decline from Mussina and Giambi?

[yankees228]

That's dishonest. Specially in the case of Teixeira.

What about his defense?

What about decline from Mussina and Giambi?

I mentioned Teixeira's defense. It was definitely an improvement over Giambi. But you said that those guys made the big difference over last year, and I was pointing out that guys in their spots had pretty darn good years. Mussina's 2008 season was very comparable to Sabathia's 2009 season. Giambi was very productive, offensively, during his time in New York. They wouldn't have done the same thing this year, but we're talking about what made the difference this year, as opposed to past years.

Like I already admitted, the three free agents played a big role, but so did improvements from a lot of other guys, and a lot of other areas on this team.

[26 to 6]

Lol the hat.

Finally we have something that completely overpowers Papelbon's faggotry.
Lol no way, this doesn't come close to Papelbon's irish jig lol. Still gay though haha

[26 to 6]

I challenge any Yankee fan anywhere to counter a Red Sox fan's argument of "the Yankees' spending is too insane" without mentioning Dice-K and the blind bidding process
LOL priceless, let's just throw the Daisuke posting fee out the window for the convenience of your argument. You guys are fucking crazy. Keep thinking what you want, I'm done arguing finances with Red Sox fans. No matter what the Yankees are still the World Champions and there's nothing you can do about it until next October, so quit your fucking bitching and deal with it.

[Dipre]

LOL priceless, let's just throw the Daisuke posting fee out the window for the convenience of your argument. You guys are fucking crazy. Keep thinking what you want, I'm done arguing finances with Red Sox fans. No matter what the Yankees are still the World Champions and there's nothing you can do about it until next October, so quit your fucking bitching and deal with it.

Fantastic argument.

No matter what the championship was bought in the eyes of the rest of the league, so quit complaining about it, shut your mouth, and go to a Yankee board if you don't wanna be called out on it.

[yankees228]

Fantastic argument.

No matter what the championship was bought in the eyes of the rest of the league, so quit complaining about it, shut your mouth, and go to a Yankee board if you don't wanna be called out on it.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. I've read a lot of sentiment about the Yankees' championship being bought, but I've read just as much sentiment that highlights many of things I've already stated (and things like chemistry and such, which I choose not to comment on because I'm not a player or in the clubhouse).

[Spudboy]

I think the Yankees won because they had superior game management.:o

[Lester82]

It was "bought" because the improvement that lead directly to the WS championship was provided by the big 3.

Exactly.

This Yankees team wasn't even in the playoffs last year. They go out and buy Sabathia, AJ Burnett and Teixeira in the offseason and BOOM, World Series!

Now the 2007 Red Sox were coming off a playoff-less year, but you could argue that Lugo, Drew, Matsuzaka were not what brought them back to glory. 2 of those 3 were nice additions, but it was about the rebound of Josh Beckett.

Beckett, acquired via trade and embarassing in his first season with Boston, drove the Red Sox 2007 postseason. (Along with some good contributions from ROY winner Pedroia, solid first baseman Youkilis, Papelbon, and getting late spark from Crisp being benched in favor of an emerging Ellsbury.)

[yankees228]

Lester, in response to your post, I'll post this once more. Not sure if you saw it, but if you did, you're only rehashing things that have already been said, instead of responding to a legitimate counter argument.


I don't necessarily agree with that. While Sabathia was great in the postseason, they had a guy that matched his production last year, and they had a guy that in 2006 and 2007 came very close. Burnett was just above average during the regular season, and had an up and down postseason. Teixeira was great this year, but Giambi was solid last year. Teixeira was a huge upgrade defensively, but he also had a bad postseason.

Those three guys had a big impact this year, but to make a definitive statement about them being the difference is certainly debatable. Lets take a look at other guys who contributed to making the difference.

Derek Jeter had his best year since 2006, and increased his OPS from last year by 100 points. He also showed drastic improvement defensively.

Johnny Damon had the best year of his career.

While Alex Rodriguez, mainly due to injury, didn't have as good a regular season as he usually does, he had a fantastic postseason, something that he hadn't done yet in New York (this represented one of the biggest things that separated this postseason from past postseasons).

Hideki Matsui had one of the best years of his career, and improved drastically from last year.

Jorge Posada rebounded from a year that he missed most of, and had one of the better years of his career.

Nick Swisher had a career year.

Robinson Cano had one of the best years of his career, and after posting an 86 OPS+ last year, he rebounded with a 129 OPS+ this year.

Melky Cabrera had over a 100 point OPS increase from last year.

The bullpen, during the regular season, was probably the best the Yankees have had since their previous championship years.

The three free agents, along with a lot of other guys, helped make the difference this year.

[jacksonianmarch]

y228 is right on the money here. Yes, we bought 3 players who were key cogs in the machine. But I think an even bigger factor was the resurgence of the players we already had. Pettitte had a very good year. Jeter played on a career yr level. Posada went back to being Posada. And the rest y228 has already profiled.

There were two things that put us over the top. The first was having 3 reliable pitchers in the rotation. The second was filling the black hole at the catchers position with a bat that was capable of being a middle of the order stick in Posada. Posada's resurgence as well as Matsui's resurgence left little for the bottom of the order guys to do. In the lower pressure environment, Cano had the second best yr of his career and Melky had a career yr. That helps keep the line moving. When we monkeyed around with Cano in the 5 hole or Melky as leadoff or batting second like we did at times in 2008, they struggled.

Those two things allowed everything else to fall into place. I already profiled the lineup, but having three pitchers regularly hand the ball to the pen in or after the 7th inning was clutch. Our pen in 2008 actually was pretty good, but you cannot be giving the ball to them in the 5th inning on a regular basis like we did that yr with Ponson, Rasner and other useless retreads. In a sense we were lucky. In another sense (Wang) we werent. But having 60% of the games be pitched by the same three guys was huge.

[ORS]

Simple question: Does the resurgence win you the division, nevermind winning it all, but the division, without the 3 pickups? According to you, that was the bigger factor in their improvement, and they improved by 14 games from 2008 to 2009 (89 wins to 103 wins). According to the numbers, your answer should be "yes", because even a 50/50 split for the two factors gets them to 96 wins, one more than the Sox. You'd have a hard time convincing me that you would win the division without those 3 players, though.

I agree with you about the importance of having your pitchers go deep into games, but you conveniently don't consider that 2/3 of those pitchers were part of the 3 big additions. Yeah, having current roster players perform better helped, but the big, dynamic change was the 3 additions, and it isn't particularly close, IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

We wouldnt win the division without those three if we replaced them with internal candidates. That much is true. But we dont win the world series without the resurgence of the guys we already had

[Dipre]

We wouldnt win the division without those three if we replaced them with internal candidates. That much is true. But we dont win the world series without the resurgence of the guys we already had

Question:

The reason we say the championship is "bought" is because without the big 3 you don't win the WS.

This has already been admitted. So why are you looking for escape routes to what has already been proved?

Honest question.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have never denied that we bought a world series. Just like sox fans shouldnt deny that they bought 2 world series.

[Dipre]

I have never denied that we bought a world series. Just like sox fans shouldnt deny that they bought 2 world series.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[yankees228]

Question:

The reason we say the championship is "bought" is because without the big 3 you don't win the WS.

This has already been admitted. So why are you looking for escape routes to what has already been proved?

Honest question.

Then by the same logic, how did the Red Sox not "buy" their 2007 championship? In my opinion, they didn't, but by your logic they did.

[Paradisecity]

Weren't our main acquisitions for the 2007 WS gotten via trade? I don't think Lugo was the difference maker. Drew is the only FA guy I can think of off the top of my head...

[yankees228]

Simple question: Does the resurgence win you the division, nevermind winning it all, but the division, without the 3 pickups? According to you, that was the bigger factor in their improvement, and they improved by 14 games from 2008 to 2009 (89 wins to 103 wins). According to the numbers, your answer should be "yes", because even a 50/50 split for the two factors gets them to 96 wins, one more than the Sox. You'd have a hard time convincing me that you would win the division without those 3 players, though.

I agree with you about the importance of having your pitchers go deep into games, but you conveniently don't consider that 2/3 of those pitchers were part of the 3 big additions. Yeah, having current roster players perform better helped, but the big, dynamic change was the 3 additions, and it isn't particularly close, IMO.

This team improved drastically from last year to this year, in almost every single facet of the game. The three additions were part of that, absolutely, but they were far from the entire story. If some of the guys in this lineup don't have the resurgence that they ended up having, they don't win the division. If A-Rod doesn't have a huge postseason, they probably don't win the World Series. If Pettitte doesn't really step it up in the second half, they don't pull away from Boston, and they probably don't win the World Series. If the bullpen didn't improve (especially the emergence of Phil Hughes, which represented the turning point of the year in my opinion), they don't win the division. Going into the year, many people talked about how the Red Sox had a significant bullpen advantage over the Yankees. Over the course of the season, the Yankees significantly closed that gap. That was an enormous contributor. There were just so many things that were different from last year, and years before that, that it is impossible to narrow it down to just three players. Those guys were immensely important to this team, without a doubt, but so many other things were as well. For you guys to just select Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira as the main difference, above all everything else, well, it's dishonest.

[yankees228]

Weren't our main acquisitions for the 2007 WS gotten via trade? I don't think Lugo was the difference maker. Drew is the only FA guy I can think of off the top of my head...

Drew and Matsuzaka were two significant pieces of that team. See, so many other guys on that team stepped up, and that's why I don't say they bought the 2007 championship. Granted, Drew and Matsuzaka didn't have the impact that Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira had, but considering the Boston Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs in 2006, it's easy to label those two the difference makers. By the logic of some here, not my own, the Boston Red Sox bought their 2007 championship.

[Paradisecity]

We did kinda have a couple injuries/shut down the entire team in 2006.

[Dipre]

Then by the same logic, how did the Red Sox not "buy" their 2007 championship? In my opinion, they didn't, but by your logic they did.

When the Red Sox spend $450 million on the 3 FA's on any given year's market, you can tell me they bought a championship.

The biggest contract awarded that offseason was given by the Sox, with their 8-year, 136 million dollar contract to Alfonso Soriano. Carlos Lee also received a $100 million dollar deal.

And who ended up signing Roger Clemens to an absurd one-year deal money-wise? Not the Sox either.

There were also many deals that trumped Julio Lugo's:

Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre and Jason Schmidt comes to mind.

If you take away the posting fee (the holy grail for Yankee fans), the Sox made a splash with Drew, and signed a couple semi-big contracts, but they didn't absolutely blow up the FA market by signing the three biggest FA's and tripling what anyone else spent in the offseason.

[Dipre]

This team improved drastically from last year to this year, in almost every single facet of the game. The three additions were part of that, absolutely, but they were far from the entire story. If some of the guys in this lineup don't have the resurgence that they ended up having, they don't win the division. If A-Rod doesn't have a huge postseason, they probably don't win the World Series. If Pettitte doesn't really step it up in the second half, they don't pull away from Boston, and they probably don't win the World Series. If the bullpen didn't improve (especially the emergence of Phil Hughes, which represented the turning point of the year in my opinion), they don't win the division. Going into the year, many people talked about how the Red Sox had a significant bullpen advantage over the Yankees. Over the course of the season, the Yankees significantly closed that gap. That was an enormous contributor. There were just so many things that were different from last year, and years before that, that it is impossible to narrow it down to just three players. Those guys were immensely important to this team, without a doubt, but so many other things were as well. For you guys to just select Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira as the main difference, above all everything else, well, it's dishonest.

It's dishonest because it suits your interest.

No one is arguing how some of the other Yankees have huge years.

The argument is that if you take away the big 3, even with the increased production, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

The baseball fan in you knows this, the Yankee fan denies it vehemently.

I'm not saying i don't think the championship is legit, i'm saying it cost $450 million dollars.

[Dipre]

Drew and Matsuzaka were two significant pieces of that team. See, so many other guys on that team stepped up, and that's why I don't say they bought the 2007 championship. Granted, Drew and Matsuzaka didn't have the impact that Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira had, but considering the Boston Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs in 2006, it's easy to label those two the difference makers. By the logic of some here, not my own, the Boston Red Sox bought their 2007 championship.

Drew had a barely above replacement level year in RF.

Matsuzaka's production wasn't a deal-breaker either.

Now THIS is dishonest.

[yankees228]

It's dishonest because it suits your interest.

No one is arguing how some of the other Yankees have huge years.

The argument is that if you take away the big 3, even with the increased production, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

The baseball fan in you knows this, the Yankee fan denies it vehemently.

I'm not saying i don't think the championship is legit, i'm saying it cost $450 million dollars.

The problem I have is that you guys are saying the three free agents were what made the difference. A lot of different things made the difference, and I don't think those three free agents should stand out above the rest.

[ORS]

This team improved drastically from last year to this year, in almost every single facet of the game. The three additions were part of that, absolutely, but they were far from the entire story. If some of the guys in this lineup don't have the resurgence that they ended up having, they don't win the division. If A-Rod doesn't have a huge postseason, they probably don't win the World Series. If Pettitte doesn't really step it up in the second half, they don't pull away from Boston, and they probably don't win the World Series. If the bullpen didn't improve (especially the emergence of Phil Hughes, which represented the turning point of the year in my opinion), they don't win the division. Going into the year, many people talked about how the Red Sox had a significant bullpen advantage over the Yankees. Over the course of the season, the Yankees significantly closed that gap. That was an enormous contributor. There were just so many things that were different from last year, and years before that, that it is impossible to narrow it down to just three players. Those guys were immensely important to this team, without a doubt, but so many other things were as well. For you guys to just select Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira as the main difference, above all everything else, well, it's dishonest.
I agree that A-Rod's postseason contributed in a big way to their winning the series, but that wasn't my question. My question was about them winning the division with the resurgence alone. Pettitte was a key contributor, but while he was better in the 2nd half this year, he was better in the 1st half last year. Overall, he was better this year, but not by a margin large enough to make me think you win the division without the other 3 additions. The bullpen in 2008 pitched to 3.79 ERA, 2009?......3.91. That's about a wash, but, still, worse when you count the beans.

It's not dishonest to call those 3 the driving force behind the improvement the Yankees experienced, because, well, they were.

[yankees228]

Drew had a barely above replacement level year in RF.

Matsuzaka's production wasn't a deal-breaker either.

Now THIS is dishonest.

And I would argue that Burnett was just above average.

Sabathia's 2009 season wasn't that much of an improvement over Mussina's 2008 season.

Teixeira had an excellent year, and it was better than Giambi's 2008, but Giambi was not one of the problems last year, and he was very productive offensively during his time in New York. First base has never really been a problem for the Yankees this decade, with the exceptions of 2004 and 2007.

I know I've said this before, but I don't think this argument is going anywhere. I feel like you're ignoring key factors, and you feel like I'm ignoring key factors. Unfortunately, we're not going to cover any new ground in this argument, so our opinions are going to likely say the same. I think, at this point, we might as well just call it quits on this loss. Fair enough?

[yankees228]

I agree that A-Rod's postseason contributed in a big way to their winning the series, but that wasn't my question. My question was about them winning the division with the resurgence alone. Pettitte was a key contributor, but while he was better in the 2nd half this year, he was better in the 1st half last year. Overall, he was better this year, but not by a margin large enough to make me think you win the division without the other 3 additions. The bullpen in 2008 pitched to 3.79 ERA, 2009?......3.91. That's about a wash, but, still, worse when you count the beans.

It's not dishonest to call those 3 the driving force behind the improvement the Yankees experienced, because, well, they were.

Well, when I said the bullpen, I should have added the caveat that I was referring to the back end, and what they did in the second half of the season (when they pulled away from the Red Sox). Obviously lack of production from guys like Jose Veras and Edwar Ramirez earlier in the year is going to inflate the numbers. I wasn't clear enough there, my fault.

Anyway, my only issue is that I don't think it's fair to single those three guys out, because so many different players played an enormous role in the turnaround from 2008 to 2009. I've already stated the reasons why I feel this way, and as I said to Dipre, it just seems like we keep going over the same stuff. At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

[Dipre]

About the Red Sox and "buying" the 2007 championship, did you know that the Cubs spent over 200 million dollars in FA's as well?

And that other teams (Houston, Dodgers) spent well more than 100 million too?

Chicago Cubs

Mark DeRosa IF Rangers Cubs Signed to a 3-year $13M deal

Ted Lilly LHP Blue Jays Cubs Signed for 4 years, $40M

Jason Marquis RHP Cardinals Cubs Signed for 3 years, $21M

Alfonso Soriano OF Nationals Cubs Signed for 8 years, $136M

The difference in FA spending between the Sox and the Cubs was less than 40 million dollars.

What was the difference between the Yanks and the closest FA spender?

[yankees228]

Right, but the argument seemed to be that the Yankees "bought" their championship because the three free agents they acquired last offseason were the driving force behind their improvement. This is what I disagree with.

I only brought the Red Sox into this (again, I don't think they bought their championship), because they also went out and signed some key free agents in the offseason before 2007, very much like the Yankees did before 2009 (albeit on a much smaller scale).

[Dipre]

Right, but the argument seemed to be that the Yankees "bought" their championship because the three free agents they acquired last offseason were the driving force behind their improvement. This is what I disagree with.

I only brought the Red Sox into this (again, I don't think they bought their championship), because they also went out and signed some key free agents in the offseason before 2007, very much like the Yankees did before 2009 (albeit on a much smaller scale).

That is the key to the entire argument.

[TheMino007]

Yankee fans are just too deep in the forest and too biased to see where the rest of the country is coming from. 3 hired guns which the Yanks didn't have last year are the reason why the Yankees bought that championship. They blew away every other team in terms of spending and in a recession in which players weren't getting as much and teams where spending as much the Yankees spent $450 on 3 players.

[jacksonianmarch]

That is the key to the entire argument.

So since the sox only spent $209 million in one offseason, that doesnt mean they bought their championship? I find it funny that sox fans throw the "bought a championship" line. The sox did that twice. Good for them. Good for NY for the win this yr. When a small market team wins a championship with all cheap, home grown or scrap heap talent, then I will truly say that they didnt "buy" their championship (see 2003 Marlins). Otherwise, the championships are bought.

[BoSox21]

So since the sox only spent $209 million in one offseason, that doesnt mean they bought their championship? I find it funny that sox fans throw the "bought a championship" line. The sox did that twice. Good for them. Good for NY for the win this yr. When a small market team wins a championship with all cheap, home grown or scrap heap talent, then I will truly say that they didnt "buy" their championship (see 2003 Marlins). Otherwise, the championships are bought.

So you're comparing the contributions of Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira towards the Yankees championship with the contributions of Drew, Lugo and Dice-K towards the Red Sox championship? Really?

[26 to 6]

I know but it's not like they decided to rape the free agent markets back then. Paul O'Neill wasn't a very good player at all before going to NY making him a shrewd pickup, Tino was traded for, Bernie was drafted, Jeter was drafted, Rivera was drafted, etc.
Paulie was a pretty good player in Cincy, just not a marquee name because of where he played, and he admittedly certainly wasn't on the level that he rose to when he came to the Yanks. But we did have to trade an All Star in Roberto Kelly to get him.

Tino was traded for, Bernie was signed as an international FA, Jeter was drafted, and Mo was signed as an international FA; not drafted. I know it's all apples and oranges, but I'm just sayin...


I think the Yankees won because they had superior game management.:o
lol :lol:
...that's exactly what it was


We did kinda have a couple injuries/shut down the entire team in 2006.
Really? What does that mean? Would you like me to recap all of the injuries the Yankees endured last season?


It's dishonest because it suits your interest.

No one is arguing how some of the other Yankees have huge years.

The argument is that if you take away the big 3, even with the increased production, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

The baseball fan in you knows this, the Yankee fan denies it vehemently.

I'm not saying i don't think the championship is legit, i'm saying it cost $450 million dollars.
I don't think anybody is denying that without them we wouldn't be champions, but two things I would like to add. Even if we just got one of the three (probably Sabathia), whos to say that the other guys we added instead of them wouldn't have had big years. It's not fair to predict because baseball is such a crapshoot, anything can happen.

As for $450 million, I hate when people throw that out there. The cost of those 3 guys on this years payroll was $47 Million ($14m for Sabathia, $20m for Tex, $13m for Burnett). If you guys are going to argue that it cost us $450 Million to buy this years championship, then you can't use that argument for any future Championships that the Yankees might win while those 3 are still on the team. I think that's fair.

[Dipre]

So since the sox only spent $209 million in one offseason, that doesnt mean they bought their championship? I find it funny that sox fans throw the "bought a championship" line. The sox did that twice. Good for them. Good for NY for the win this yr. When a small market team wins a championship with all cheap, home grown or scrap heap talent, then I will truly say that they didnt "buy" their championship (see 2003 Marlins). Otherwise, the championships are bought.


So you're comparing the contributions of Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira towards the Yankees championship with the contributions of Drew, Lugo and Dice-K towards the Red Sox championship? Really?

Thanks Bosox.



As for $450 million, I hate when people throw that out there. The cost of those 3 guys on this years payroll was $47 Million ($14m for Sabathia, $20m for Tex, $13m for Burnett). If you guys are going to argue that it cost us $450 Million to buy this years championship, then you can't use that argument for any future Championships that the Yankees might win while those 3 are still on the team. I think that's fair.

That is more than the payroll of a couple of MLB teams.

Happy?

[ORS]

As for $450 million, I hate when people throw that out there. The cost of those 3 guys on this years payroll was $47 Million ($14m for Sabathia, $20m for Tex, $13m for Burnett). If you guys are going to argue that it cost us $450 Million to buy this years championship, then you can't use that argument for any future Championships that the Yankees might win while those 3 are still on the team. I think that's fair.
Inaccurate.

CC got a $9M bonus with the $14M, Teixeira got a $5M bonus with the $20M, and Burnett gets $16.5M every year of his contract. So the initial expenditure was $64.5M, but that's not all. The LT is based on AAV of contract value, and every one of their salaries were over the cap. Therefore, you tack on 40% (repeat offender rate) of their combined AAV of $52M, which is $21.6M. In real $$ expenditures, those players cost the Yankees $86.1M this year alone.

[Dipre]

Inaccurate.

CC got a $9M bonus with the $14M, Teixeira got a $5M bonus with the $20M, and Burnett gets $16.5M every year of his contract. So the initial expenditure was $64.5M, but that's not all. The LT is based on AAV of contract value, and every one of their salaries were over the cap. Therefore, you tack on 40% (repeat offender rate) of their combined AAV of $52M, which is $21.6M. In real $$ expenditures, those players cost the Yankees $86.1M this year alone.

So they cost more than a mid-market team?

Wow.

[Emmz]

They costed more than the Twins, by like... 20M

They didn't buy their championship AT ALL

[26 to 6]

Inaccurate.

CC got a $9M bonus with the $14M, Teixeira got a $5M bonus with the $20M, and Burnett gets $16.5M every year of his contract. So the initial expenditure was $64.5M, but that's not all. The LT is based on AAV of contract value, and every one of their salaries were over the cap. Therefore, you tack on 40% (repeat offender rate) of their combined AAV of $52M, which is $21.6M. In real $$ expenditures, those players cost the Yankees $86.1M this year alone.
Fair enough. I was aware of the bonuses, but neglected to mention them because I didn't think they went towards the actual payroll. As for Burnett, Cot's baseball Contracts had him getting just $13m this year. he signed for 5 years/$82.5m, which as you said averages out to $16.5, but I figured there was some sort of bonus or backloading in the contract. As for the LT and it being based on AAV and whatnot, you know much more about that than I do, so I'll take your word for it.

[26 to 6]

They costed more than the Twins, by like... 20M

They didn't buy their championship AT ALL
Where did I say that? Show me one post in which I failed to ackowledge the Yankees big financial advantage and their willingness to spend? ONE.

[TheMino007]

The luxury tax needs to be lowered and teams need to be punished more greatly for being over it. Every year the Yankees can't have a monoply over baseball by having all the power to spend on whomever ever they want while every other team has a budget.

[jacksonianmarch]

they built that "monoply" over decades of sustained success. It is more of an earned thing than anything else. That being said, if Bud somehow got a salary structure that forced NY into a lower salary range, then Cashman and Co would explode on the INTL FA market as well as the draft

[Dipre]

they built that "monoply" over decades of sustained success. It is more of an earned thing than anything else. That being said, if Bud somehow got a salary structure that forced NY into a lower salary range, then Cashman and Co would explode on the INTL FA market as well as the draft

That has absolutely nothing to do with the laughable imbalance of the current structure.

Jesus Christ.

[jacksonianmarch]

So, based upon your statement above, you do not believe that the Yankees current financial advantage has anything to do with their past successes? You do not think that their financial empire has been strengthened by their history of consistent winning?

[Dipre]

So, based upon your statement above, you do not believe that the Yankees current financial advantage has anything to do with their past successes? You do not think that their financial empire has been strengthened by their history of consistent winning?

What i do believe, is that the Yankees current advantage is a fault of the system, not a monopoly created by their past success.

[BoSox21]

Their financial empire has definitely been strengthened by their historical success. The fact that they can use their financial empire to create a competitive disadvantage for every other team is a fault of the system.

[Dipre]

Their financial empire has definitely been strengthened by their historical success. The fact that they can use their financial empire to create a competitive disadvantage for every other team is a fault of the system.

Fair enough, you are absolutely right.

[BoSox21]

But it isn't solely based on historical success so you can't just say "well, the Yankees worked hard to make winning a constant in their history, they should be able to benefit from that".

The biggest factor contributing to their financial empire is that the fact that they happen to play in the center of the universe, the largest and richest market in the country. No other team will ever be able to compete with that, to create revenue streams large enough to overcome not playing in New York City.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Mets can compare with that, but they dont have that financial advantage.

[BoSox21]

The Mets can compare with that, but they dont have that financial advantage.

Are NYC's business leaders more inclined to buy a box at Yankee Stadium or CitiField?

[Dipre]

The Mets can compare with that, but they dont have that financial advantage.

They probably could if they played their cards right

[jacksonianmarch]

And I can argue that people's willingness to buy tickets for a team is due to their history. Here is the flow sheet (and I know you are right Bosox)

Yankees market + Yankees prior success = massive renevues. Massive revenues + broken system = persistent dominance. Their prior successes and their current successes are a major part of why the team is so big in NY. They are a sticking point for the bravado of people who live in the city that never sleeps.

[jacksonianmarch]

They probably could if they played their cards right

You mean, if they started winning consistently, like say.... THE YANKEES

[jacksonianmarch]

The Mets/Yankees dichotomy shows that the past success is incredibly important. The Mets can easily have payrolls in the low $100 million range and not bat an eye. But if they go up into the mid to high $100 mil range, they need to be winning to be able to afford it. Why? because they are the mets, the lovable losers who got two championships but floundered many more. They dont have the history that NY does and therefore, they cannot draw off their fanbase as well as the Yankees can

[Dipre]

You mean, if they started winning consistently, like say.... THE YANKEES

*Sigh*

Not winning WS consistently, because no one has done that this decade.

If they could stop shitting the bed awarding bad contracts (See: Perez, Oliver), and making stupid trades (See:Kazmir, Scott) they could set themselves up to put a more competitive product on the field that's more appealing to New Yorkers. Sort of like the 2006 team.

[Dipre]

The Mets/Yankees dichotomy shows that the past success is incredibly important. The Mets can easily have payrolls in the low $100 million range and not bat an eye. But if they go up into the mid to high $100 mil range, they need to be winning to be able to afford it. Why? because they are the mets, the lovable losers who got two championships but floundered many more. They dont have the history that NY does and therefore, they cannot draw off their fanbase as well as the Yankees can

As stated above, that has a lot more to do with the quality of the product.

[jacksonianmarch]

*Sigh*

Not winning WS consistently, because no one has done that this decade.

If they could stop shitting the bed awarding bad contracts (See: Perez, Oliver), and making stupid trades (See:Kazmir, Scott) they could set themselves up to put a more competitive product on the field that's more appealing to New Yorkers. Sort of like the 2006 team.

Where did I say world series in there? I said winning consistently. They have won a lot of world series, but the yankees have been winning consistently for 15 yrs now. Not necessarily the big one, but they have won the most games, have been to the most playoff games, the most world series', etc over the past decade plus. You win consistently and people will support your team. That glow lasts only so long, so you need to put a team out there that is competitive on a consistent basis. The Mets put out competitive teams once every 5 yrs or so, and that isnt enough when the yankees are rattling off 95+ win seasons like they are going out of style.

[Paradisecity]

Yeah, it definitely has nothing to do with the Yankees having been around an extra 60 years...

[Dipre]

Where did I say world series in there? I said winning consistently. They have won a lot of world series, but the yankees have been winning consistently for 15 yrs now. Not necessarily the big one, but they have won the most games, have been to the most playoff games, the most world series', etc over the past decade plus. You win consistently and people will support your team. That glow lasts only so long, so you need to put a team out there that is competitive on a consistent basis. The Mets put out competitive teams once every 5 yrs or so, and that isnt enough when the yankees are rattling off 95+ win seasons like they are going out of style.

Ah, i see.

You are right in that instance then and i concur.

If the Mets could put together a team that could at least make the playoffs consistently it would be a whole different scenario.

[BoSox21]

For once, Jacko and I are on the same page. The Yankees control most of the NYC pie and thus the NYC financial advantage because the Yankee brand is simply bigger than the Met brand and they owe that to past success.

The Yankees have had as many bad contracts as the Mets but the Yankees can buy their way out of their mistakes without missing a beat more than the Mets can.

[Dipre]

Yeah, it definitely has nothing to do with the Yankees having been around an extra 60 years...

I honestly think it has more to do with the Met's suck.

But that's just me.

If Mets ownership started manufacturing and distributing dairy products, a week later it would be discovered that milk is the cause for cancer.

[BoSox21]

Yeah, it definitely has nothing to do with the Yankees having been around an extra 60 years...

The Angels consistently outspend the Dodgers

[yankees228]

Are NYC's business leaders more inclined to buy a box at Yankee Stadium or CitiField?

That's because the Yankees are a more successful organization, and because of their rich history. Jacko's point about the Yankees and the Mets is a valid one.

EDIT: I didn't finish reading the rest of the thread. I apologize for stating things that have already been discussed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, it definitely has nothing to do with the Yankees having been around an extra 60 years...

which also adds to their lore and following. PC, if the yankees had the same luck as the cubbies, then I bet the Mets would be the hot ticket in NYC. Its not just the lore and the time served, but the quality of that time.

[ORS]

which also adds to their lore and following. PC, if the yankees had the same luck as the cubbies, then I bet the Mets would be the hot ticket in NYC. Its not just the lore and the time served, but the quality of that time.
The Cubs are the more popular team in Chicago despite the White Sox and their better recent success. This suggests the popularity of a team in a shared town is more arbitrary than it is dependent on success. I find no achievement by Yankee management for them being more popular in NY. It's low hanging fruit that's easy to pick. It's only remarkable if they fail to pick it.

[yankees228]

The Cubs are the more popular team in Chicago despite the White Sox and their better recent success. This suggests the popularity of a team in a shared town is more arbitrary than it is dependent on success. I find no achievement by Yankee management for them being more popular in NY. It's low hanging fruit that's easy to pick. It's only remarkable if they fail to pick it.

You don't think that the Yankees winning is the reason why they're more popular than the Mets?

[jacksonianmarch]

The Cubs are the more popular team in Chicago despite the White Sox and their better recent success. This suggests the popularity of a team in a shared town is more arbitrary than it is dependent on success. I find no achievement by Yankee management for them being more popular in NY. It's low hanging fruit that's easy to pick. It's only remarkable if they fail to pick it.

The cubbies forge their legacy as lovable losers.

[ORS]

You don't think that the Yankees winning is the reason why they're more popular than the Mets?
Was there some ambiguity to what I posted?

[yankees228]

Was there some ambiguity to what I posted?

Just looking for a clarification. It is completely about who is winning, in my opinion. It's not like the Yankees were always drawing more. When they were a poor team in the late 80s and early 90s, the Mets were significantly more popular in New York. The late 90s completely changed baseball in this city.

[ORS]

The cubbies forge their legacy as lovable losers.
Weren't you apply this same tag to the Mets a couple of days ago, or something similar? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[ORS]

Just looking for a clarification. It is completely about who is winning, in my opinion. It's not like the Yankees were always drawing more. When they were a poor team in the late 80s and early 90s, the Mets were significantly more popular in New York. The late 90s completely changed baseball in this city.
You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it in any way accurate. For example, despite your proclamations that the management staff has done so much to "earn" the advantage of supreme revenue hogs at the NY trough, the reality is, even at the height of the Mets popularity (1990), they (the Mets) still brought in 20% less revenue than the Yankees. They operate from an advantaged position that has nothing to do with their abilities as businessmen.

[yankees228]

You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it in any way accurate. For example, despite your proclamations that the management staff has done so much to "earn" the advantage of supreme revenue hogs at the NY trough, the reality is, even at the height of the Mets popularity (1990), they (the Mets) still brought in 20% less revenue than the Yankees. They operate from an advantaged position that has nothing to do with their abilities as businessmen.

That's interesting. Do you have a source? Was the same true in the 60s?

[ORS]

I looked it up when I was at work, and I didn't save the link. The information is out there if you are willing to look for it rather than making your case on your opinion alone.

[yankees228]

I looked it up when I was at work, and I didn't save the link. The information is out there if you are willing to look for it rather than making your case on your opinion alone.

The underhanded insult is unnecessary, simply because there wasn't a hint of that in my posts. Regardless, asking you to cite your sources is hardly unfair.

Anyway, I will try to find it.

[ORS]

It's not an insult. You based your argument on your opinion, an incorrect opinion. This is fact. If you don't like this fact and feel insulted by it, then a modification of your analytical methods is probably a good idea.

[yankees228]

Well, you are right that my argument is based on opinion, which was driven by my personal experiences. Regardless, the Yankees, according to your research, seem to always have the upper hand.

Also, I wasn't insulted. I just felt that your response to a completely reasonable question (the source of your information) was laced with an underhanded insult. If I'm wrong, then I apologize.

I do have one more question though. Do you think that the Yankees success in the mid to late 90s significantly widened the popularity gap between the two teams?

[example1]

With team-owned networks a number of teams are doing very well for themselves. The Yankees have taken full advantage of their media market, and for that they deserve credit.

I actually think that the Yankees needed to initially get lucky to win the amount they have over the past 15 years or so. They were able to build around some very important pieces that may not have landed there otherwise. Jeter and Rivera in particular. They have two essentially home-grown HOF players, arguably two of the best players at their positions of all time. Jeter would be in the conversation about best SS of all time. Rivera would be, hands down, the best reliever of all time.

They added some great FAs to stay competitive over the years and eventually added A-Rod and CC and Teixeira. Now they're building around these guys and that should extend their competitiveness beyond Jeter and Rivera's careers. It really has been impressive, but beyond Jeter and Rivera it really has been buying a competitive team.

It is completely in the Yankees financial interest to stay at least playoff-relevant year after year. I bet the cost in FAs pales in comparison to what they make by getting to the playoffs as the favorite every year.

[CT Sox]

I’m new to this site. This is my first post and well be my last. I just can’t take the posts crying about the Yankees 2009 WS championship. Bought the WS? Give me a break. That’s what they do, they have the highest revenue. They make a ton of dough. What do you suggest the Yankees do? Stick the $$ in their pocket? If I were a fan I would be trilled that they spend the $$ on top talent. We can too. I suggest as Sox fans we get real and focus on what our needs are and compete. There is no reason we can’t compete with the Yankees and the rest of the league. Championships are won with talent, desire, and luck. Check the playoff teams over the past 20 years. There are examples of low, mid and high payroll (including our Sox) teams. What made 2004 so great was the Sox determination and resiliency. I want that back.

The Good – Starting pitching (Wake is signed for 2010-2011 so he will be in the back of the rotation). Bullpen and a solid core of position players with Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youk, Drew and Victor Martinez.

The Bad – Tek is killing us by taking 1/25 of the roster. Sure every team has two catchers I would just like mine to kill us in only one area. Tek kills us buy combining terrible hitting with poor throwing. A deadly combo.

The Ugly – We are stuck with Lowell and Ortiz. Lowell can hit but is a liability at 3rd. Ortiz is done and since he can’t possibly play a position, that’s another dead roster spot.

Opportunity – Rather then whine about the Yankees payroll why not add to ours. We have all the financial resources we need to sign a left fielder. We need to do something at 1b or 3b and then Lowell can be a productive DH and Ortiz can grab some pine next to Tek and wait for a pinch running opportunity. (what a waste of valuable roster spots). There is starting pitching available for the taking and though the Mets certainly have needs and have the $$, the pieces the Sox need for 2010 are available and for $$ we can well afford.

[Dipre]

I’m new to this site. This is my first post and well be my last. I just can’t take the posts crying about the Yankees 2009 WS championship. Bought the WS? Give me a break. That’s what they do, they have the highest revenue. They make a ton of dough. What do you suggest the Yankees do? Stick the $$ in their pocket? If I were a fan I would be trilled that they spend the $$ on top talent. We can too. I suggest as Sox fans we get real and focus on what our needs are and compete. There is no reason we can’t compete with the Yankees and the rest of the league. Championships are won with talent, desire, and luck. Check the playoff teams over the past 20 years. There are examples of low, mid and high payroll (including our Sox) teams. What made 2004 so great was the Sox determination and resiliency. I want that back.

The Good – Starting pitching (Wake is signed for 2010-2011 so he will be in the back of the rotation). Bullpen and a solid core of position players with Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youk, Drew and Victor Martinez.

The Bad – Tek is killing us by taking 1/25 of the roster. Sure every team has two catchers I would just like mine to kill us in only one area. Tek kills us buy combining terrible hitting with poor throwing. A deadly combo.

The Ugly – We are stuck with Lowell and Ortiz. Lowell can hit but is a liability at 3rd. Ortiz is done and since he can’t possibly play a position, that’s another dead roster spot.

Opportunity – Rather then whine about the Yankees payroll why not add to ours. We have all the financial resources we need to sign a left fielder. We need to do something at 1b or 3b and then Lowell can be a productive DH and Ortiz can grab some pine next to Tek and wait for a pinch running opportunity. (what a waste of valuable roster spots). There is starting pitching available for the taking and though the Mets certainly have needs and have the $$, the pieces the Sox need for 2010 are available and for $$ we can well afford.

It should be your last post.

Even Yankee fans admit they're taking advantage of a broken system buying superstars like it's running out of style.

So how about you shut your mouth, know your role, and think thoroughly before you post a steaming pile of shit disguised as a post.

[CT Sox]

Dipre, thanks for your insightful response. It is exactly what I expected from you. Classic fourth grade bully stuff you could never get away with outside the internet. Clearly you know your role. Asa for your advise to think first before posting, you provide a great example.

[Dipre]

Dipre, thanks for your insightful response. It is exactly what I expected from you. Classic fourth grade bully stuff you could never get away with outside the internet. Clearly you know your role. Asa for your advise to think first before posting, you provide a great example.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulence:

Call it.

Who the fuck are you anyway?

You don't even introduce yourself, yet come here running your mouth about how everyone's "Whining".

What'd you expect, a bouquet of flowers and some chocolates?

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, douchebag.

[26 to 6]

:lol: LOL

Dipre you crack me up bro.

His post was insightful and well though out. I don't understand how you could attack his attitude towards the whole thing, he wants the Sox to go out and address their needs and compete. Wouldn't you want the same or do you just want the championship handed to you? Oh, and the Yankees don't take advantage, they play within the rules my friend. You just need to get over it already, the Yankees won, plain and simple. It's ok to be upset or displeased, but you don't have to cry about it the entire offseason. Lets focus on Licey winning a championship and worry about the Yanks and Sawx next season. The constant bitching, moaning, and bullying aren't helping your image.

[Dipre]

:lol: LOL

Dipre you crack me up bro.

His post was insightful and well though out. I don't understand how you could attack his attitude towards the whole thing, he wants the Sox to go out and address their needs and compete. Wouldn't you want the same or do you just want the championship handed to you? Oh, and the Yankees don't take advantage, they play within the rules my friend. You just need to get over it already, the Yankees won, plain and simple. It's ok to be upset or displeased, but you don't have to cry about it the entire offseason. Lets focus on Licey winning a championship and worry about the Yanks and Sawx next season. The constant bitching, moaning, and bullying aren't helping your image.

Of course it's insightful and well thought to you.

You're the captain of the "we can spend all the money we want brigade".

And seeing as you're the resident Yankee troll, i'm surprised you're even talking about images.

I suggest you begin reading Y228's posts. See if you can learn something.

[26 to 6]

Whatever you say pal. Just do us all a favor and stop crying. It's painful when a grown man can't stop crying.

Idk how you can think otherwise about his post with the exception of the part where voiced his displeasure in everybody whining about the Yankees winning. Everything aside from that was pretty dead on, wouldn't you agree?

[Dipre]

Whatever you say pal. Just do us all a favor and stop crying. It's painful when a grown man can't stop crying.

There's a difference between "crying" and "stating the facts".

"Crying" is what i do every time i read one of your posts.

"Stating the facts" is what i do when having exchanges with intelligent posters like Gom or Y228.

If you want me to stop "Crying", for once in your life, make a post worth reading, Jesus Christ.

Oh, and nice edit.

[26 to 6]

No, crying is what you've been doing since Teixeira caught the ball that registered out #27 in Game 6 of the World Series.......call it what you want but to everybody else it just looks like a sad, jealous person who can't stop bitching and crying. Get over it, you continuing to cry about it isn't going to change anything.

I made the edit because I feel bad for the dude who just joined here and after his first post gets attacked by you. I imagine you suffer from LMS and a ton of insecurity because you're always here attacking and insulting people like it's your job, just to make you feel better about yourself I suppose? Idk why you always have to stir shit up when someone has a differing viewpoint than yours, you can't just act your age and agree to disagree? Not everybody in life is going to agree with everything the almighty Dipre has to say. How you've managed to not get banned yet is beyond me (I know my fuse wouldn't have been nearly as long as yours has been).

[Dipre]

No, crying is what you've been doing since Teixeira caught the ball that registered out #27 in Game 6 of the World Series.......call it what you want but to everybody else it just looks like a sad, jealous person who can't stop bitching and crying. Get over it, you continuing to cry about it isn't going to change anything.

I made the edit because I feel bad for the dude who just joined here and after his first post gets attacked by you. I imagine you suffer from LMS and a ton of insecurity because you're always here attacking and insulting people like it's your job, just to make you feel better about yourself I suppose? Idk why you always have to stir shit up when someone has a differing viewpoint than yours, you can't just act your age and agree to disagree? Not everybody in life is going to agree with everything the almighty Dipre has to say. How you've managed to not get banned yet is beyond me (I know my fuse wouldn't have been nearly as long as yours has been).

"You felt bad".

Hilarious.

You don't come into a new place and run your mouth like that.

We've been having an interesting discussion about the economics of the game, i've always said was "bought" but legit, no one here was whining, it's won and it is what it is.

You, like that douchebag, however, have insisted on calling people who discuss in this thread "whiners".

Well newsflash:

A) This is a Red Sox forum.

B ) The only whiner is the one who can't defend his points with logic but by calling names like "whiner".

C) You have, unlike Gom, Jacko and Y228, brought absolutely nothing to the discussion. So if there's someone who shouldn't be running his mouth, it's you.

[26 to 6]

"You felt bad".

Hilarious.

You don't come into a new place and run your mouth like that.

We've been having an interesting discussion about the economics of the game, i've always said was "bought" but legit, no one here was whining, it's won and it is what it is.

You, like that douchebag, however, have insisted on calling people who discuss in this thread "whiners".

Well newsflash:

A) This is a Red Sox forum.

B ) The only whiner is the one who can't defend his points with logic but by calling names like "whiner".

C) You have, unlike Gom, Jacko and Y228, brought absolutely nothing to the discussion. So if there's someone who shouldn't be running his mouth, it's you.
LOL

I only insist on calling people who whine whiners. What's your excuse? You've engaged in name-calling and insults more than anyone, why is that excused? As for the new guy, he wasn't running his mouth, he didn't make a personal attack towards anybody, he simply displayed a good competitive attitude and stated that rather than bitch about it like some people, the Sox need to just move on and look towards next season. Complaining about the Yankees spending habits isn't going to change anything, the best thing the Sox and their fans could do is look towards next year my friend. As for me being unable to defend my points, I haven't tried to because I'm not trying to make any points, I made my point long ago. I'm staying out of these ridiculous discussions where all you do is spout insults and bitch and moan like a woman on the rag. What exactly have you brought to this conversation besides a piss-poor attitude and more tears than a than an infant?

Maybe people would have more respect for you and better be able to engage in discussion with you if every other sentence wasn't an insult. Rather than engage in an intelligent conversation explaining your points you just tell everybody how you feel, and then attack those who don't agree with you. Grow the fuck up dude. I've got nothing else to say on the matter aside from QUIT YOUR FUCKING BITCHING. And chill with the insults and name-calling, we're not 6 years old here.

Oh and here, you might need these...
http://treesflowersbirds.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/211_kleenex.jpg?w=300&h=300 http://content.costco.com/Images/Content/Product/241104b.jpg