Red Sox will never be the same

[jacksonianmarch]

Red Sox will never be the sameComment Email Print Share By Howard Bryant
ESPNBoston.com

Dustin Pedroia's soft floater curled downward into the open, waiting glove of Erick Aybar to end the 2009 postseason for the Boston Red Sox, and the old inevitability of a momentous, improbable and historic comeback gave way to a new one: The Red Sox as we knew them are dead.

That is not to say they will not come back, perhaps as soon as next year, but they will never be what they once were. From 2003 to 2007, the Red Sox were one of the great postseason teams in baseball history. Call them a dynasty if winning two championships in four years fits your standard. If not, just say no team was tougher, more dangerous as it edged closer to the death of playoff defeat. No team scared more opposing players, more managers and more fans. No team had more lives, could be more propelled toward a championship charge by an important game.

It had created a mystique so powerful that even if in the aftermath of beer showers and disappointment they refuse to say it, both the Red Sox and Angels players had to be silently wondering just what was going to happen had there been a Game 4 on Monday, with Jon Lester on the mound. If staying alive would have meant what it meant for the 2003 A's and 2004 Yankees and 2007 Indians, if it meant the Red Sox were going to do it again, to an Angels team it had haunted -- again.

In a sense, what the Red Sox of 2003 to 2007 accomplished was even more impressive than the Joe Torre Yankees dynasty of 1996 to 2001, for while the Yankees were truly dominant, the Red Sox seemed only to reach their zenith when faced with permanent extinction. From 1996 to 2001, the Yankees played just six elimination games, and were 4-2. They lost Game 5 to Cleveland in the 1997 Division Series and Game 7 to Arizona in the 2001 World Series while beating the A's both in Game 5 of the Division Series and in three straight after being down 2-0 in the Division Series a year later. The Red Sox, meanwhile, were 11-2 in elimination games from 2003 to 2007. Down 3-0 to the Yankees in 2004, the Sox famously did not lose a game the rest of the season, winning eight straight and the World Series. Three years later, they beat Cleveland and Colorado in seven straight games after being down to the Indians three games to one.

But those days are yesterday, meaning about as much as Dave Henderson's throwing out the first pitch before Sunday's games, or Joey Gathright's being on the Boston roster, waiting for an opportunity to reprise the role of Dave Roberts during the epic 2004 Championship Series. Torii Hunter said as much and backed it up with his ebullient and ferocious play, and in the end, Henderson and Roberts were reduced to ghost images, nothing more.

David ortiz was just 1 for 12 against the Angels.None of this should be news, for eventually all great teams crumble. For a five-year period, the Red Sox were legendary. There were signs last year that were exposed further during this season as Boston played so poorly on the road and finally by the Angels during their impressive three-game sweep. And now the period of transition from the title years -- far more emotionally than physically -- must begin.

Beyond the Angels' outplaying them and just being better this week, there are many salient reasons why the Boston master plan did not work this year: the pitching flameouts of John Smoltz, Brad Penny and -- most chiefly among them -- the enigmatic $102 million investment that is Daisuke Matsuzaka. That Clay Buchholz, making his first postseason start, stood between the Red Sox and elimination represents the severest indictment of Matsuzaka's season.

But the single biggest difference between the 2009 Red Sox and the previous editions under the John Henry regime is that the David Ortiz/Manny Ramirez anchor has given way, finally and completely, with all of its future implications and consequences.

The dismantling of the 2004 championship team took place almost immediately, while the 2007 team was largely intact. The constant was that despite the turnover, Ramirez and Ortiz and what they represented were still there. And now that is gone, too.

Essentially, the Red Sox lost two Hall of Fame-caliber bats in consecutive seasons.

For a time, it appeared that the Red Sox might be able to escape losing Ramirez, when Jason Bay arrived last year, drove in 37 runs in 49 games and then hit .412 against the Angels, .341 for the playoffs last year. Bay was professional in the clubhouse, a proven run producer without Ramirez and his headaches, and seemed unaffected by the maelstrom that is often Boston baseball.

Addition by subtraction never works, and while Bay is a very good player -- someone the Red Sox probably should re-sign in the offseason -- there will never be (not in this generation, anyway) another combination in Boston like Ramirez and Oritz, two players who played at a Hall of Fame level at the absolute height of their powers.

And in turn, even with the addition of Victor Martinez, it was obvious this season and postseason that the Red Sox were that much less dangerous, that much more ordinary. The stirring comebacks never came. No longer needing to calculate when Ortiz and Ramirez would bat, opposing pitchers, once cautious, now challenged the Red Sox order. Boston hit .131 for the series

There are numbers and there are memories, but justice cannot be done to Ortiz and Ramirez without the combination of the two. In 43 postseason games from 2003 to 2007, Ramirez hit .321 (53-for-165) with 11 home runs, 38 RBIs and 29 runs scored. Ortiz during that same period hit .325 (52-for-160) with 11 home runs, 38 RBIs and 35 runs. The Red Sox won 28 of those games, including two World Series titles.

During the first comeback from elimination in the 2003 Division Series against Oakland, Ramirez hit .200 in the five games, but his only home run came in Game 5 off Barry Zito and pushed the Red Sox toward the upset. For five seasons, Ramirez and Ortiz were the most fearsome offensive combination of average, power, pitch selection and clutch hitting of this generation. From 2003 to 2007, Ortiz and Ramirez combined for an on-base percentage of .405.

Throughout the postseason and the later weeks of the regular season, much was made of the Ortiz resurgence. Yes, he had hit just one home run over his first 48 games. Yes, he led the league with 27 home runs since June 6. Yes, he showed tremendous resiliency in overcoming his slow start and the emotional damage he faced in dealing with the addition of his once-untouchable name to the steroid era scandal to finish the season with 99 RBIs, and yes, only he knows the full extent of the effect of injuries to his wrist and his knees.

But for five years, David Ortiz was a Hall of Fame level offensive player, and he is no longer. From 2003 to 2007, Ortiz posted five consecutive top-5 MVP finishes. Ortiz has 317 career home runs in 13 big league seasons, but 208 were hit during those five years.

Even if you remove his slow 48-game start, Ortiz hit .264 the rest of the way, the same .264 he hit in 2008. His power numbers are still impressive, and pitchers may still respect him. But they do not fear him, not as they once did, evidenced by Jered Weaver's late-game fastball challenge in Game 2 that struck out Ortiz in a close game.


In the 14 playoff games since Ramirez left and his wrist and knees betrayed him, Ortiz is hitting .200 (9-for-45) with one home run and five RBIs. And while Ramirez's replacements, Bay and Martinez, have at times produced -- Bay hit .341 last postseason, .125 this year, Martinez .182 against the Angels -- there is no substitution for what Boston baseball enjoyed during those years.

None of this is to say that the Red Sox should have kept Ramirez or that Ortiz is finished as a productive player. Ramirez had run his course in Boston and Ortiz is still a relative 30-homer, 100-RBI threat. But the Angels exploited the end of the old Boston personality, and the reason is simple: What Ramirez and Ortiz did for those five years just doesn't happen. Those five years were a special moment in time in Boston.

Eventually, great teams fade and must subsequently reinvent themselves. Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein knows this, which is why he put together what appeared to be a deep and formidable pitching staff in the offseason to help his offense. Josh Beckett and Lester are a twosome no club wants to face in a short series. The Red Sox are in that process now.

There are other examples. The Yankees of 2002 to 2008 had been trying for years to duplicate the magic of the 1996 to 2001 teams and only now, eight years later, do they seem to have created a new personality divorced from the pressures of reliving the magical years when time and chemistry made them unbeatable.

This is what happens to dynasties and dynasty-level teams. Free agency and age, decay and time robs every great team -- evidenced not only by their offensive failings but also by their weary and ineffective captain, Jason Varitek, exposed by the Yankees two weeks ago, not playing a minute in the postseason for the first time -- of their special auras. As the series wore on, it wasn't that the Red Sox couldn't win but that they would not as they once did. Time has run out.

In the end, the Red Sox lost the battle Sunday, but a generation of their fans won, for few teams have given their fans and their region such energy. The identity of the franchise has changed irrevocably and it was one of the greatest of runs, the best New England baseball has seen since World War I. The result moving forward isn't Armageddon, as it may seem, but the inevitable transition. The Red Sox will be back, of course, but it will never be the same.

Howard Bryant is a senior writer for ESPN.com. He is the author of Shut Out: A Story of Race and Baseball in Boston and Juicing the Game: Drugs, Power and the Fight for the Soul of Major League Baseball. He can be reached at Howard.Bryant@espn3.com or followed on Twitter at http://twitter.com/hbryant4.

This was an incredibly good read from ESPNBoston. I agree wholeheartedly, what Manny and Ortiz did from 03-07 will never be duplicated in Boston and they were the heart and soul of that franchise, making them impossible to extinguish.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Of course you agree wholeheartedly. Yawn. Teams don't follow 10 year trends, it's up to management to bring new players in that make the team better and it's a year by year process.

[Dipre]

Lol.

[jacksonianmarch]

just read the article. Its more about the strength that Manny and Ortiz lent to the sox than the sox "never being the same". Maybe I should change the title. But I agree with him. The sox strength when they were unbeatable was the 3-4 of that lineup. It changed the game in so many ways and made them seem invincible when the chips were down. Now, Manny is gone and Papi is a shell of himself. With those two out of the picture, Theo has collected a better lineup 1-9, but they dont come close to replicating what Manny and David did back in the 5 yr stretch of 2003-2007

[Looch Ness Monster]

Well, if what you're saying is that the Red Sox need a big bat in the middle then I wholeheartedly agree.

[Dipre]

Well, if what you're saying is that the Red Sox need a big bat in the middle then I wholeheartedly agree.

He's saying that while taking his usual shot at the organization. So i halfheartedly agree.

[rhet]

People who dwell on Manny/Ortiz as the reason for two world championships will have to acknowledge the inconvenient truth that both were probably juiced while putting up those numbers.

The Yanks were juiced for their last couple of rings too. And one of their top current players has admitted being juiced in Texas while he hit about 175 of his home runs. Is he clean now? Who knows.

What a sad and pathetic waste of enthusiasm.

[Dipre]

People who dwell on Manny/Ortiz as the only reason for two world championships will have to acknowledge the inconvenient truth that both were probably juiced while putting up those numbers.

The Yanks were juiced for their last couple of rings too. And one of their top current players has admitted being juiced in Texas while he hit about 175 of his home runs. Is he clean now? Who knows.

What a sad and pathetic waste of enthusiasm.

Not to mention that dominant pitching also had at least a little bit to do with the championships. At least a little.

[Mr Crunchy]

Howard Bryant left his wife and children for another man.

[jacksonianmarch]

I said nothing about juicing. I dont care about juicing, remember?

[Emmz]

Lol@This

[Mr Crunchy]

The idea that these guys are done winning is absurd, simply absurd.
MJ quit busting balls
I'll drop a dime and tell the authorities what you asked my son to do for you at the hospital for a lollipop.
and did i mention that Howard Bryant left his wife and children for a man about 12 years ago?
The only balls Howard Bryant should be writing about are the ones that pound his chin.

[Gom]

The article is great, but that duo, probably the most fearsome duo in decades, was fueled by PEDs. At least Manny was a great hitter before roids. Ortiz was below average player before and after the juice. During the juice, he was amazing.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Lol.

[jacksonianmarch]

The idea that these guys are done winning is absurd, simply absurd.
MJ quit busting balls
I'll drop a dime and tell the authorities what you asked my son to do for you at the hospital for a lollipop.
and did i mention that Howard Bryant left his wife and children for a man about 12 years ago?
The only balls Howard Bryant should be writing about are the ones that pound his chin.

Did I say they were done winning? No. I said they wont be the same. They very well could win it all next season, especially if they make a few key moves this offseason. But it just isnt the same driving force behind the team.

[schillingouttheks]

Did I say they were done winning? No. I said they wont be the same. They very well could win it all next season, especially if they make a few key moves this offseason. But it just isnt the same driving force behind the team.

The same thing can be said about any team that has ever had a period of dominance. It comes and it goes. Is there anything new that I read in this article that I overlooked?

[Spudboy]

Howard Bryant left his wife and children for another man.

Really!:lol::lol::lol:

[Lester82]

So Howard Bryant is gay? Eh, not surprised...

[a700hitter]

The article is great, but that duo, probably the most fearsome duo in decades, was fueled by PEDs. At least Manny was a great hitter before roids. Ortiz was below average player before and after the juice. During the juice, he was amazing.2003 was his only good year? It was the only year he failed the drug testing.

[Lester82]

You could argue that many players in baseball had their best years fueled by HGH, Steriods

Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, David Ortiz, Sosa

[Dipre]

You could argue that many players in baseball had their best years fueled by HGH, Steriods

Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, David Ortiz, Sosa

You couldn't "Argue" you could prove it.

[Emmz]

You could argue that many players in baseball had their best years fueled by HGH, Steriods

Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, David Ortiz, Sosa

o rlly?

I'll agree with that list, aside from Clemens, whose best years were in the 1980s, pre-steroid era, with the Red Sox, when he was much thinner. However the point overall is very, well, obvious.

[Keeper]

What? The 1980's weren't the pre-steroid era. It started in the 80's with the Bash Brothers. It fact, it probably started before they came along.

[Dojji]

I don't want them to "be the same." Change is cool. Especially if it might be a chance for the BETTER.

[Emmz]

What? The 1980's weren't the pre-steroid era. It started in the 80's with the Bash Brothers. It fact, it probably started before they came along.

It depends on your perspective, steroids weren't as common until the mid-90s, and there's a huge difference between 80s and early-90s Clemens, and late-90s and 2000s Clemens, so that's completely irrelevant to the main point of the post. Although, yeah, it started in the 80s, but the "probably" is a logical flaw, there's no proof of anything. Clemens, as far as we know, didn't take anything when he was with the Sox.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/05/01/1146489565_6834.jpg

http://www.thesunblog.com/sports/archives/RogerClemens_P22.jpg

Clemens' head alone looks like it doubled in size from the first pic to the second. I think the only appendage that got smaller from the first pic to the second was his dick most likely.

[example1]

It's true that this team won't be the same, but to say there isn't the same "driving force" behind it is absurd. The driving force was a huge investment from management in the quest to win. That force still exists. The 2008 team, one game from going to and possibly winning a 3rd World Series, had Varitek, Wakefield, Timlin, Youkilis and Ortiz on it from that "driving force" team in 2004. Obviously, the 2009 team only has four players (Tek, Wake, Youkilis, Ortiz) and 2010 will (hopefully) only have 3.

The core of this team has been completely turned over, and I would say it was a pretty successful refersh. In all honestly, I think the core of the current group makes them a better overall franchise than the 2004 team.

[Gom]

It's true that this team won't be the same, but to say there isn't the same "driving force" behind it is absurd. The driving force was a huge investment from management in the quest to win. That force still exists. The 2008 team, one game from going to and possibly winning a 3rd World Series, had Varitek, Wakefield, Timlin, Youkilis and Ortiz on it from that "driving force" team in 2004. Obviously, the 2009 team only has four players (Tek, Wake, Youkilis, Ortiz) and 2010 will (hopefully) only have 3.

The core of this team has been completely turned over, and I would say it was a pretty successful refersh. In all honestly, I think the core of the current group makes them a better overall franchise than the 2004 team.

I think you're way off here. As a Yankee fan, I feared the Drug Duo, Ortiz and Manny. Those two guys alone changed the complexion of every game.

Now who do you have that scares someone? Youkilis...is a very good player, but he can't hold a candle to Manny or Ortiz in their injecting days.

Truth be told...the Red Sox remind me in a way of the old Yankees...a lot of solid, good players. However, they aren't as good as the Yankee core [offensively] and none of them were the go-to guys.

Manny and Ortiz were the pulse of the team, and when they ceased being dominant, so did your team.

[example1]

I think you're way off here. As a Yankee fan, I feared the Drug Duo, Ortiz and Manny. Those two guys alone changed the complexion of every game.

Now who do you have that scares someone? Youkilis...is a very good player, but he can't hold a candle to Manny or Ortiz in their injecting days.

Truth be told...the Red Sox remind me in a way of the old Yankees...a lot of solid, good players. However, they aren't as good as the Yankee core [offensively] and none of them were the go-to guys.

Manny and Ortiz were the pulse of the team, and when they ceased being dominant, so did your team.

I agree with you about them needing to add some offensive power to make them better. I've been saying that since about the midseason. I disagree that when those guys stopped being good the team stopped being dominant. I think a team that wins 95 games a season is dominant. Only a spoiled Yankee fan like yourself could think otherwise.

2004 was built to win that year. The 2009 club (basically 2008 on) will be built to get to the playoffs every year and win occasionally. I'd rather have that, honestly. It means that with only one big acquisition they are suddenly on par with a tremendous team like the Yankees AND they have prospects to get those deals done.

[a700hitter]

I agree with you about them needing to add some offensive power to make them better. I've been saying that since about the midseason. I disagree that when those guys stopped being good the team stopped being dominant. I think a team that wins 95 games a season is dominant. Only a spoiled Yankee fan like yourself could think otherwise.

2004 was built to win that year. The 2009 club (basically 2008 on) will be built to get to the playoffs every year and win occasionally. I'd rather have that, honestly. It means that with only one big acquisition they are suddenly on par with a tremendous team like the Yankees AND they have prospects to get those deals done.Example, I am very glad to see that the majority of your recent posts have dealt with using prospects to get stars. I have been saying that that is the primary purpose of the minor league player development system. It's very difficult for a system to develop impact stars. They are a very rare breed and an organization is lucky if they develop 1 in.10 years. Pedroia, Youkilis, and Ellsbury are all nice players, but not really impact players. Given Ellsbury's unbelievable speed that can turn close games, I think he has the best chance of developing into an impact offensive weapon. Papelbon is an impact player. He's the best closer in team history. Lester is a top of the rotation guy, but it took him 2 1/2 years at the major league level to develop into that kind of pitcher and he is still developing. With the solid core that the Sox have now, they need one or two big pieces to become the favorite to win a Championship. There's no time to waste trying to develop more kids into major league contributors.

[rician blast]

Wasn't Howard Bryant the driving force in creating public disdain and clubhouse turmoil regarding a fairly inane bumper sticker Mike Timlin had in his locker a few years back?

[example1]

Example, I am very glad to see that the majority of your recent posts have dealt with using prospects to get stars. I have been saying that that is the primary purpose of the minor league player development system. It's very difficult for a system to develop impact stars. They are a very rare breed and an organization is lucky if they develop 1 in.10 years. Pedroia, Youkilis, and Ellsbury are all nice players, but not really impact players. Given Ellsbury's unbelievable speed that can turn close games, I think he has the best chance of developing into an impact offensive weapon. Papelbon is an impact player. He's the best closer in team history. Lester is a top of the rotation guy, but it took him 2 1/2 years at the major league level to develop into that kind of pitcher and he is still developing. With the solid core that the Sox have now, they need one or two big pieces to become the favorite to win a Championship. There's no time to waste trying to develop more kids into major league contributors.

I'm saying this now because the Sox have retooled. If they didn't have Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon, Bard, Delcarman, etc., I would still be advocating for the conservative prospect-heavy approach.

Some big percentage of FAs (I don't know, maybe 85%?) are simply guys who have played in the league for 6 years. They do not, as FAs, automatically warrant the type of money they make. Some other percentage of them are truly elite players who can not be acquired any other way than signing huge contracts of making big trades.

The Sox literally have a player development machine right now. They've developed the guys listed above, they have a lot of talent in the system (Westmoreland, Kelly, Lin, Bowden, etc.,) and they also spent a lot in the draft to get guys like Renfroe and Younginer who will probably slide right into that highly-coveted prospect role. They should keep that line going.

While it is always true that prospects who can make it to the MLB level are almost inherently more valuable than a big percentage of their FA counterparts, it is also true that a team like the Sox can afford to ship 4-times the value of the MLB player in prospects if that MLB player is someone they truly covet, and those prospects are blocked in their progress anyway.

In other words, it is only because this team held its prospects, developed most of them appropriately and have cleared the way for Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, etc., to be major parts of the team that the next generation of prospects can be used more for getting highly touted MLB players. I don't think they were wrong in the past for holding onto those guys because now a good portion of their team can be cost-controlled.

The process will need to wax and wane between retaining prospects for the future and using them for the present. They should never let their prospect pool get small again. This offseason should be one where they use some of their wealth in prospects to get guys that other teams simply cannot afford to acquire. It's an advantage of being the Red Sox right now and they should use it.

For now, at least, you and I are on the same page with regard to how prospects should be used. I'm glad they didn't move Pedroia and Ellsbury and Youkilis 4 years ago though.

[a700hitter]

I'm saying this now because the Sox have retooled. If they didn't have Pedroia, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon, Bard, Delcarman, etc., I would still be advocating for the conservative prospect-heavy approach.

Some big percentage of FAs (I don't know, maybe 85%?) are simply guys who have played in the league for 6 years. They do not, as FAs, automatically warrant the type of money they make. Some other percentage of them are truly elite players who can not be acquired any other way than signing huge contracts of making big trades.

The Sox literally have a player development machine right now. They've developed the guys listed above, they have a lot of talent in the system (Westmoreland, Kelly, Lin, Bowden, etc.,) and they also spent a lot in the draft to get guys like Renfroe and Younginer who will probably slide right into that highly-coveted prospect role. They should keep that line going.

While it is always true that prospects who can make it to the MLB level are almost inherently more valuable than a big percentage of their FA counterparts, it is also true that a team like the Sox can afford to ship 4-times the value of the MLB player in prospects if that MLB player is someone they truly covet, and those prospects are blocked in their progress anyway.

In other words, it is only because this team held its prospects, developed most of them appropriately and have cleared the way for Youk, Pedroia, Ellsbury, etc., to be major parts of the team that the next generation of prospects can be used more for getting highly touted MLB players. I don't think they were wrong in the past for holding onto those guys because now a good portion of their team can be cost-controlled.

The process will need to wax and wane between retaining prospects for the future and using them for the present. They should never let their prospect pool get small again. This offseason should be one where they use some of their wealth in prospects to get guys that other teams simply cannot afford to acquire. It's an advantage of being the Red Sox right now and they should use it.

For now, at least, you and I are on the same page with regard to how prospects should be used. I'm glad they didn't move Pedroia and Ellsbury and Youkilis 4 years ago though.You panic when I point out that we are in agreement, and you try to distance yourself from it. My stated position has always been where you are right now. The FO should keep the best prospects and develop them if they are not blocked at the ML level. The rest are trading chips to be used to bring in the best ML talent available. Lately they have been developing guys for the major league club, but now they seem to be ready to move other prospects to improve the major league club. This is where I have been all along. The only difference is that I would have done both simultaneously. So, either you have come around to my philosophy or if this where you have always been, I have been there all along. We may have debated which prospects were ready, but the philosophy is the same. Sorry about that. I know that you hate when I agree with you and you will attempt to qualify it somehow, but I agree with your stated philosophy 100%

[example1]

You panic when I point out that we are in agreement, and you try to distance yourself from it. My stated position has always been where you are right now. The FO should keep the best prospects and develop them if they are not blocked at the ML level. The rest are trading chips to be used to bring in the best ML talent available. Lately they have been developing guys for the major league club, but now they seem to be ready to move other prospects to improve the major league club. This is where I have been all along. The only difference is that I would have done both simultaneously. So, either you have come around to my philosophy or if this where you have always been, I have been there all along. We may have debated which prospects were ready, but the philosophy is the same. Sorry about that. I know that you hate when I agree with you and you will attempt to qualify it somehow, but I agree with your stated philosophy 100%

It's kind of like filling out your match.com profile and getting a hideous woman as your best match. Run away as fast as possible.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm totally kidding.

I think we've probably always been on the same page in terms of the usefulness of prospects. I'm not sure we always agree on which guys are the MLB caliber prospects and which aren't. I, for one, still have hope for Jed Lowrie and Michael Bowden and a few others that other people have soured on.

In any case, yes, we probably agree. To me, it is vital that this team have a number of spots filled by cost controlled players because that gives them the financial flexability to field a team that can compete with the likes of the Yankees at a fraction of the payroll. I know you've said in the past that you don't really care about the cost/value of players (WARP/$$), but I think it is always a factor.

[ORS]

That's a rather blanket statement from a700 concerning the use of prospects in the trade market. Willingness to entertain moving some prospects for some very specific players does not signal a paradigm shift. As always, each proposed transaction has its own merits, and whether a person looks favorably on the proposal will signal one thing only, that they think the merits of that trade are worth the cost. It does not signal a change in guiding philosophy.

Furthermore, how someone can call Youkilis and Pedroia non-impact players with a straight face escapes me. If they aren't then there are only about 10 of them in all of baseball, and a large majority of the teams do not have them.

[example1]

That's a rather blanket statement from a700 concerning the use of prospects in the trade market. Willingness to entertain moving some prospects for some very specific players does not signal a paradigm shift. As always, each proposed transaction has its own merits, and whether a person looks favorably on the proposal will signal one thing only, that they think the merits of that trade are worth the cost. It does not signal a change in guiding philosophy.

Amen. Though I don't think a700 is disagreeing with me or calling me a paradigm-shifter.



Furthermore, how someone can call Youkilis and Pedroia non-impact players with a straight face escapes me. If they aren't then there are only about 10 of them in all of baseball, and a large majority of the teams do not have them.

He and I disagree about this, though I didn't mention it above. The REASON I'm all for trading some prospects now for potentially more expensive guys is BECAUSE Pedroia and Youkils and Lester and Papelbon (and to a lesser extent, Ellsbury) are impact players. If they weren't then I would have little interest in trading away OTHER potential impact players for current impact players.

Lon story short, take the impact players we have, add established other impact players, and this team can win currently. If they continue to wait and see then they will likely be watching the Yankees win more WS in the next few years.

[Keeper]

Furthermore, how someone can call Youkilis and Pedroia non-impact players with a straight face escapes me. If they aren't then there are only about 10 of them in all of baseball, and a large majority of the teams do not have them.

This.

[a700hitter]

Furthermore, how someone can call Youkilis and Pedroia non-impact players with a straight face escapes me. If they aren't then there are only about 10 of them in all of baseball, and a large majority of the teams do not have them.I think there are only about 10 impact players in the game. When I talk about an impact player, I am talking about the elite of the elite-- the guys who get HOF consideration after their careers. Youk and Pedroia are really good players, and they are great to have on the team because their determination rubs off on everyone else, but they fall short of the group that I have in mind. I'm not sure there are even 10. Tex is that kind of player, Manny, ARod, and Pujols too. That's the class of player I was referring too. No disrespect to Youk and Pedroia, but they are not in that class. I said that Ellsbury had the potential to be an impact player, because I think there is an outside chance that if he became more consistent and developed some power that he could dominate games like Rickey Henderson used to dominate games.

[Dipre]

I think there are only about 10 impact players in the game. When I talk about an impact player, I am talking about the elite of the elite-- the guys who get HOF consideration after their careers. Youk and Pedroia are really good players, and they are great to have on the team because their determination rubs off on everyone else, but they fall short of the group that I have in mind. I'm not sure there are even 10. Tex is that kind of player, Manny, ARod, and Pujols too. That's the class of player I was referring too. No disrespect to Youk and Pedroia, but they are not in that class. I said that Ellsbury had the potential to be an impact player, because I think there is an outside chance that if he became more consistent and developed some power that he could dominate games like Rickey Henderson used to dominate games.

Dustin Pedroia is an impact player on both sides of the ball.

He's a top 5 second baseman.

[Lester82]

Furthermore, how someone can call Youkilis and Pedroia non-impact players with a straight face escapes me

It's sort of a Yankee fan-like thing to say that. I read a Yankee fan's post today somewhere saying that same thing about Youk/Pedroia. I just don't get it. I guess this stuff wasn't said about MVP Pedroia, Youk after 2007 or '08. But now the Red Sox are really down, and people knock ya when you're down... bloom's off the rose of the Red Sox offense.

But Pedroia and Youk are impact players.

[Lester82]

"then they will likely be watching the Yankees win more WS in the next few years."

I'll wait till they even win this year's World Series.

[example1]

"then they will likely be watching the Yankees win more WS in the next few years."

I'll wait till they even win this year's World Series.

Great. Thanks for the update.

They are the best team in baseball. There is little question about that. If they add Jason Bay or Matt Holliday they will be better. Whether or not they win the WS really isn't relevant. The point is that the Sox may be watching the Yankees ahead of them for years to come if they don't do something now.

[example1]

I think there are only about 10 impact players in the game. When I talk about an impact player, I am talking about the elite of the elite-- the guys who get HOF consideration after their careers. Youk and Pedroia are really good players, and they are great to have on the team because their determination rubs off on everyone else, but they fall short of the group that I have in mind. I'm not sure there are even 10. Tex is that kind of player, Manny, ARod, and Pujols too. That's the class of player I was referring too. No disrespect to Youk and Pedroia, but they are not in that class. I said that Ellsbury had the potential to be an impact player, because I think there is an outside chance that if he became more consistent and developed some power that he could dominate games like Rickey Henderson used to dominate games.

I'm just going to go on record right now and say that I think Pedroia will be considered for the HOF by the time all is said and done. He's a 2-time All Star, he's won an MVP and a Rookie of the Year, and he's been in the league for 3 seasons.

I think Youkilis is an impact bat. He was a late bloomer, but the past few years he's been as productive as just about any player in baseball. Also a 2 time AS, in the running for MVP last year and probably this year too (though no chance of winning it). Whether or not he's ultimately a HOF'r, he's an impact player.

[a700hitter]

I'm just going to go on record right now and say that I think Pedroia will be considered for the HOF by the time all is said and done. He's a 2-time All Star, he's won an MVP and a Rookie of the Year, and he's been in the league for 3 seasons.

I think Youkilis is an impact bat. He was a late bloomer, but the past few years he's been as productive as just about any player in baseball. Also a 2 time AS, in the running for MVP last year and probably this year too (though no chance of winning it). Whether or not he's ultimately a HOF'r, he's an impact player.I didn't say that they miss the elite group by much, and I've learned never to under-estimate Pedroia, so I wouldn't be shocked if he made the Hall. I'm just considering a smaller group.

I don't see the opportunity to get such a player this off-season. Gonzalez may be in that class already, and he certainly has the potential to be squarely within that group very soon. On the other side of the ball, Halladay and King Felix are the only two that I see that could be available. Players like Matt Holliday and John Lackey are very good, but not in the group that I am talking about. ORS is right that very few teams have one of those guys. The Yankees have 3 of them (ARod, Tex and CC). I'd like to see the Sox snag 1 or 2 of them and add it to what we already have.

[TheKilo]

I think you're way off here. As a Yankee fan, I feared the Drug Duo, Ortiz and Manny. Those two guys alone changed the complexion of every game.

Now who do you have that scares someone? Youkilis...is a very good player, but he can't hold a candle to Manny or Ortiz in their injecting days.

Truth be told...the Red Sox remind me in a way of the old Yankees...a lot of solid, good players. However, they aren't as good as the Yankee core [offensively] and none of them were the go-to guys.

Manny and Ortiz were the pulse of the team, and when they ceased being dominant, so did your team.

Really? Youkilis isn't better than Tino fucking Martinez, and JD Drew isn't better than Paul O'Neill? Yeah, I know he punched a few water coolers, but holy shit there might not be another player more overrated than Paul O'Neill.

The Yankees won because they had awesome pitching and a solid offense. The Sox have the same.

Stop talking out of your ass.

[TheKilo]

Dustin Pedroia and Kevin Youkilis are among the top 30 players in all of baseball. People who call them anything but impact players are the same people who question whether or not Jason Bay can hit cleanup.

[Dipre]

Dustin Pedroia and Kevin Youkilis are among the top 30 players in all of baseball. People who call them anything but impact players are the same people who question whether or not Jason Bay can hit cleanup.

I question whether Jason Bay can hit cleanup.

I also say Pedey is probably a future HOF candidate.

Got a problem with that, Stupendous one?

[TheKilo]

Yes. It's your whole argument about Bay not being able to hit cleanup. It's asinine.

[Dipre]

Yes. It's your whole argument about Bay not being able to hit cleanup. It's asinine.

Bitch, please.

He's able to hit cleanup, but there are obviously better options.

To avoid the confrontational bullshit, i asked you the following question:

If you had AGon and Bay here, who would you hit 4th?

I stated he's a bit vulnerable and not very aggresive, just like Youk. But if he re-signs and he's what we have, then he's the cleanup hitter.

[TheKilo]

The question is moot because the Sox won't sign both. Just because you wouldn't hit Bay 4th in that specific instance does not take anything away from the offensive season Bay had, or the offensive player he is.

IOW, it's not his fucking fault he didn't hit 4th in this lineup.

[Dipre]

The question is moot because the Sox won't sign both. Just because you wouldn't hit Bay 4th in that specific instance does not take anything away from the offensive season Bay had, or the offensive player he is.

IOW, it's not his fucking fault he didn't hit 4th in this lineup.

OMG.

Agree to disagree then.

[TheKilo]

OMG.

Agree to disagree then.

What is it about Jason Bay's offensive season that tells you he can't hit fourth? The over .900 OPS, leading all AL OF regulars? The 36 HRs? The 115+ RBIs?

Please, enlighten me.

[Dipre]

What is it about Jason Bay's offensive season that tells you he can't hit fourth? The over .900 OPS, leading all AL OF regulars? The 36 HRs? The 115+ RBIs?

Please, enlighten me.

You can say i'm an idiot or whatever because i can't back it up with stats and i'm not gonna say "Watch the gamezzzzz" like a douche.

All i have to back me up is the fact that he's pretty vulnerable and not aggresive enough to hit fourth on a team like this.

[a700hitter]

Dustin Pedroia and Kevin Youkilis are among the top 30 players in all of baseball. People who call them anything but impact players are the same people who question whether or not Jason Bay can hit cleanup.I don't that they are in the top 30. Youkilis just misses being a top 10 guy.

[example1]

What is it about Jason Bay's offensive season that tells you he can't hit fourth? The over .900 OPS, leading all AL OF regulars? The 36 HRs? The 115+ RBIs?

Please, enlighten me.

I think this question is actually a combination of how the Sox run their team, and what they value.

Bay had the ability to hit 4th on nearly any team. The Sox prefered to have Youkilis hit 4th. Youks had 28 points in OBP on Bay, and 11 points in SLG. In OPS Bay (.921) vs. Youkilis (.961) had a pretty significant difference.

There are 19 players who put up a higher OPS than Bay. Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez and Hanley Ramirez are all on that list. Each had an OBP over .400, and each had a better SLG. Those are the names I have seen discussed as at the top of the "upgrade" list for this lineup.

I don't think anyone is saying that Bay can't hit cleanup relative to all the other options out there, but compared to Youkilis and the three other offensive names people are throwing out most often, Bay isn't quite there. Neither was Holliday this year, but I imagine that in future years, with a big contract and playing in Fenway with this lineup, he could be very quickly.

The thing we can all agree on is that having guys like Youkilis (and Bay if he sticks around) means that they could potentially be one of the best offensive supporting casts ever if that really big hitter comes along.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

You can say i'm an idiot or whatever because i can't back it up with stats and i'm not gonna say "Watch the gamezzzzz" like a douche.

All i have to back me up is the fact that he's pretty vulnerable and not aggresive enough to hit fourth on a team like this.

This.


He seems to go through many slumps, a few prolonged

[Dojji]

You're describing a lot of the best hitters in the league guys. Even among high-profile power hitters, none of the complaints you're mentioning are unique to Bay.

[Dipre]

You're describing a lot of the best hitters in the league guys. Even among high-profile power hitters, none of the complaints you're mentioning are unique to Bay.

LOL.

[Dojji]

Well, you guys just as much as said that all you're going on is emotion. If you're just going to rant on a hitter for having slumps, heck, even Pujols has slumps. Unless you bring up something we can actually quantify this whole thing is just an excuse to vent a hundred illogical reasons to bring in Holliday over Bay.

[Dipre]

Well, you guys just as much as said that all you're going on is emotion. If you're just going to rant on a hitter for having slumps, heck, even Pujols has slumps. Unless you bring up something we can actually quantify this whole thing is just an excuse to vent a hundred illogical reasons to bring in Holliday over Bay.

Can you really read?

Honest question.

The 4 hitter argument goes against both Holliday and Bay.

Even if they brought Bay i wouldn't want him hitting 4th.

Please read the arguments before you hit the submit button, k?

[Dojji]

Well it better be about Holliday because otherwise it's an exercise in utter pointlessness.

You can't buy what other teams aren't selling.

Unless there's something to suggest not just that we're interested in a player but that his team is actively interested in dealing him, there just is not going to be anything happening.

[Dipre]

Well it better be about Holliday because otherwise it's an exercise in utter pointlessness.

You can't buy what other teams aren't selling.

Unless there's something to suggest not just that we're interested in a player but that his team is actively interested in dealing him, there just is not going to be anything happening.

Oh?

I didn't know you were the GM of a baseball team.

Because as far as i'm concerned, basically every player on every team is available for the right place. Specially if the team in question has zero chance of contending and a barren farm system.

Then again, we're going by Doiji logic here right?

[Dojji]

Because as far as i'm concerned, basically every player on every team is available for the right place. Specially if the team in question has zero chance of contending and a barren farm system.


That's OK. You have the right to feel that way. It doesn't offend reality in the slightest. Or, really, you know, affect it.

[Dipre]

That's OK. You have the right to feel that way. It doesn't offend my reality in the slightest. Or, really, you know, affect it.

[Dojji]

Cute.

SD has reasons to trade Gonzalez. They also have plenty of reasons to wait. It is by NO means a slam dunk that we're going to get a price for him that Theo is willing to pay.

[BoSox21]

Cute.

SD has reasons to trade Gonzalez. They also have plenty of reasons to wait. It is by NO means a slam dunk that we're going to get a price for him that Theo is willing to pay.

It was widely and credibly reported at the deadline that they were listening to offers for Gonzo. Whether Kevin Towers' successor will have the same line of thinking remains to be seen.

[Dojji]

It was widely and credibly reported at the deadline that they were listening to offers for Gonzo. Whether Kevin Towers' successor will have the same line of thinking remains to be seen.

And that is the wildcard right now. Since we don't know WHY Towers was fired it makes the situation almost impossible to read from a distance. For all we know he was fired BECAUSE he was listening to offers on Gonzalez.

[Dipre]

And that is the wildcard right now. Since we don't know WHY Towers was fired it makes the situation almost impossible to read from a distance. For all we know he was fired BECAUSE he was listening to offers on Gonzalez.

This is the stupidest statement i have heard during my time on TalkSox, and that's saying a lot.

Well done.

[Dojji]

This is the stupidest statement i have heard during my time on TalkSox, and that's saying a lot.

Well done.

I did say "for all we know." You know, the precursor to extreme, improbable statements used to make a point about how little we know.

[Paradisecity]

You two just need to fuck and get it over with.

[Dojji]

Sorry guys, for some reason Dipre brings out the worst in me.

[Dipre]

Sorry guys, for some reason Dipre brings out the worst in me.

I don't bring the worst in you.

The lack of a floodgate between your brain and your keyboard brings out the worst in you.

Stick to facts.

[Dipre]

You two just need to fuck and get it over with.

Oh the homosexuality joke.

Original.

[Dojji]

Yeah, this is kinda what I'm talking about.

[Dipre]

Yeah, this is kinda what I'm talking about.

The truth brongs out the worst in you?

Well i'll be damned.......

[Paradisecity]

Oh the homosexuality joke.

Original.

I wasn't going for original, I was going for on-point.

The two of you seek each other out for arguments. It is just like the guy and girl in 3rd grade who keep saying nasty things about the other one because deep down they like them.

If you are telling me this is inaccurate then the only conclusion I'm left with is that you are both constantly being douchebags to each other just for the sake of being douchebags. So I am going to stick with the fucking each other theory out of the kindness of my heart. All I do is give.

[Dipre]

I wasn't going for original, I was going for on-point.

The two of you seek each other out for arguments. It is just like the guy and girl in 3rd grade who keep saying nasty things about the other one because deep down they like them.

If you are telling me this is inaccurate then the only conclusion I'm left with is that you are both constantly being douchebags to each other just for the sake of being douchebags. So I am going to stick with the fucking each other theory out of the kindness of my heart. All I do is give.

There're some homoerotic fantasies deep down, eh? ;)

[Paradisecity]

I just think if you two keep it up, you could be the Talksox forum's answer to the unstoppable power couple of Jacksonianmarch and Gom.

[Dipre]

I just think if you two keep it up, you could be the Talksox forum's answer to the unstoppable power couple of Jacksonianmarch and Gom.

Jesus Christ, no need to get personal, man!

[BoSox21]

This is the stupidest statement i have heard during my time on TalkSox, and that's saying a lot.

This only makes sense of ownership made it clear to Towers that they didn't want Gonzo to be traded and Towers listened to offers anyway. Usually, ownership has to give their blessing for a franchise player to be dealt. But I would've expected a Padres spokesperson to come out after and re-affirm to the fanbase that Gonzo wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Dipre]

This only makes sense of ownership made it clear to Towers that they didn't want Gonzo to be traded and Towers listened to offers anyway. Usually, ownership has to give their blessing for a franchise player to be dealt. But I would've expected a Padres spokesperson to come out after and re-affirm to the fanbase that Gonzo wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Which they haven't done.

There's enough evidence to believe that they were listening to offers on Gonzo with the ownership's consent.

[rhet]

Taking a step back, it's hard for me to understand what would drive a team to want to trade a top player with multiple arb years remaining and no apparent high level replacement on the team.

Felix? I think Seattle would be insane to shop him.

[redsoxrules]

Taking a step back, it's hard for me to understand what would drive a team to want to trade a top player with multiple arb years remaining and no apparent high level replacement on the team.

Felix? I think Seattle would be insane to shop him.

Yup

Halladay IMO is the only one we would have a shot of acquiring

[TheKilo]

You're describing a lot of the best hitters in the league guys. Even among high-profile power hitters, none of the complaints you're mentioning are unique to Bay.

Guys, stop making me agree with Dojji. It makes me feel disgusting, I feel like I need to take another shower (I' obviously joking)

People are letting themselves beswayed by Bay's two bad months. Granted, they were bad - but his good months were really fucking good. And if you take his offensove season as a whole, a majoriity of teams would kill to have that bat in the ir lineup.

Fact is, every hitter goes through slumps. If you can get an extreme offensive upgrade for a reasonable cost, do it. Just don't convince yourself this team is doomed if they don't and ONLY bring Jason Bay back.

[Dipre]

Guys, stop making me agree with Dojji. It makes me feel disgusting, I feel like I need to take another shower (I' obviously joking)

People are letting themselves beswayed by Bay's two bad months. Granted, they were bad - but his good months were really fucking good. And if you take his offensove season as a whole, a majoriity of teams would kill to have that bat in the ir lineup.

Fact is, every hitter goes through slumps. If you can get an extreme offensive upgrade for a reasonable cost, do it. Just don't convince yourself this team is doomed if they don't and ONLY bring Jason Bay back.

No one here has said this, so i don't know where you get it.

Look at it this way:

If we re-sign Bay, excellent, but Holliday is the better player, and i don't know about you, but if it's gonna cost me a lot of money, might as well go for the better player, since they'll both hit the FA market anyway.

I don't think Felix makes sense, to be honest, what at least i'm trying to imply is that if the FO has the chance to turn this lineup into a juggernaut that can match the Yanks' without having to completely deplete the farm system, they should go for it.

I hate sounding like a douche, but we wouldn't even be having this conversation if the FO hadn't let Cashman fuck them up the ass yet again.

[redsoxrules]

Well its pretty certain that the Yanks will go hard for either Bay or Holliday

if the Yanks want Holliday then we have no shot at him

[Dojji]

The Yankees can probably stop us from getting one guy in any given offseason.

If the Yankees let Damon and Matsui both walk we have no shot at Holliday because that's probably the guy they don't let us beat them to.

However, they could make Lackey that guy instead in which case we might have a crack at Holliday.

[Lester82]

The article is great, but that duo, probably the most fearsome duo in decades, was fueled by PEDs. At least Manny was a great hitter before roids. Ortiz was below average player before and after the juice. During the juice, he was amazing.


Thank goodness some key Yankee players' best seasons weren't fueled by anything like HGH, 'Roids

ahahaha

whew, boy!

:lol:

[a700hitter]

The Yankees can probably stop us from getting one guy in any given offseason.

If the Yankees let Damon and Matsui both walk we have no shot at Holliday because that's probably the guy they don't let us beat them to.

However, they could make Lackey that guy instead in which case we might have a crack at Holliday.If the Yankees do not win the Championship, I expect that they will continue to break the bank for FAs-- maybe they sign Lackey and Bay. I also wouldn't be surprised if they took a run at King Felix if they think he is available.