Victor Martinez...

[badkarma25]

Is the reason why the Red Sox made the post season this year.

I honestly believe this. He came through on several different occasions to get the Sox a win and kept us ahead of the Rangers.

Just my opinion. Any thoughts?

[Dojji]

I'd agree if there weren't 9 games between us and the next wild card contender. That tells me that there probably isn't one reason.

[das11209]

It is absolutely the # 1 reason - without him we do not make the post-season.

I know that our starters were injured - but our offense around ASB was so bad - it was threatening to be one of the league worst. Bay was in huge slump and so was Ortiz. Somehow - VMart became the castalyst that bought the offense to very respectable.

Getting V-Mart is a nice feather on Theo's otherwise dismal record with trades. Not sure how the prospects and Masterson will work out in futrure - but in short term - he became Red Sox savior 2009.

[Dipre]

It is absolutely the # 1 reason - without him we do not make the post-season.

I know that our starters were injured - but our offense around ASB was so bad - it was threatening to be one of the league worst. Bay was in huge slump and so was Ortiz. Somehow - VMart became the castalyst that bought the offense to very respectable.

Getting V-Mart is a nice feather on Theo's otherwise dismal record with trades. Not sure how the prospects and Masterson will work out in futrure - but in short term - he became Red Sox savior 2009.

Had to get that shot in huh?

[Coco's Disciples]

According to WARP, Martinez added about 2 wins. So we probably do make the playoffs without him. I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from Martinez or the trade--it was a great trade and he's a great player.

[RedSox2737]

I think having T-nez is a BIG reason we went so far ahead of the Rangers/Rays......but not the only reason

[das11209]

Had to get that shot in huh?

You mean I am wrong?

[Dipre]

You mean I am wrong?

Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell and Ramon Ramirez say yes.

[das11209]

I think having T-nez is a BIG reason we went so far ahead of the Rangers/Rays......but not the only reason

Exactly what I wanted to say. Other reason is our starters came back from injuries - so we can DFA 'sure losers' like Smoltz or Penny.

[das11209]

Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell and Ramon Ramirez say yes.

Your baseball knowledge is certainly more than mine - so you know Theo would not have made the trade for Becket - he loved Hanley. That was done while he was away.

Your point with RamRam is taken.

[Dipre]

Your baseball knowledge is certainly more than mine - so you know Theo would not have made the trade for Becket - he loved Hanley. That was done while he was away.

Your point with RamRam is taken.

The groundwork for that trade was laid down before Theo's debacle.

The "it wouldn't have been done" part is pure speculation.

Oh, and Jason Bay.

[The_Destroyah]

Theo has been one of the best GMs in baseball since Boston hired him, your bashing of him absolutely confounds me.

[das11209]

Theo has been one of the best GMs in baseball since Boston hired him, your bashing of him absolutely confounds me.

I beg to differ. He has been good with player development - but other than that - his record has been fair at best. Too many examples of that - you can go 1 by 1 to all the moves he made since 2004 and see what % actually worked out.



Yeah - I know we won 2 world series - that does not mean he has done a great job.

[Dipre]

I beg to differ. He has been good with player development - but other than that - his record has been fair at best. Too many examples of that - you can go 1 by 1 to all the moves he made since 2004 and see what % actually worked out.



Yeah - I know we won 2 world series - that does not mean he has done a great job.

Hahahahahahaha. :lol:

Funniest post i've seen during my time on Talksox.

You were joking right?

Because if i remember correctly, not only has this team won two world series, but the farm system is churning out All-stars and quality players on a yearly basis.

[das11209]

Hahahahahahaha. :lol:

Funniest post i've seen during my time on Talksox.

You were joking right?

Because if i remember correctly, not only has this team won two world series, but the farm system is churning out All-stars and quality players on a yearly basis.

Glad I made you laugh - did you see the first part?

Check out what % of his trades and free agent signings have worked out since 2004.

[Dojji]

I can't really think of a truly disastrous trade Theo made. The closest one was the Gagne trade but frankly we didn't give up that much in that trade. The only player we gave up that has been worth anything to Texas so far is David Murphy, and he would have been at best a 4th OF for us. And we won the World Series despite that trade. I can't really feel too angry about it.

His track record with free agency is far worth than his trade record IMHO.

[Dipre]

Glad I made you laugh - did you see the first part?

Check out what % of his trades and free agent signings have worked out since 2004.

It's a stupid premise.

What matters are results, and Theo gets them.

I don't give two fucks about trades and FA signings as long as the team keeps winning and churning out quality players on a yearly basis.

And for the record: Beckett, Lowell, Ram-Ram, Drew, Dice-K, Okaji, Bay, V-Mart, Alex Gonzales, Billy Wagner and Rocco Baldelli are FA/trade acquisitions who have not only worked out but are current part of the Red Sox roster.

So, i ask:

What the fuck are you talkin' about?

[Dojji]

Agreed with Depre. When you take the bad with the good Theo is one of the best general managers in Red Sox history. Especially if you look past the product on the field to the team's overall financial health and minor league system for future trades, signings and roster moves, which is as strong as it's ever been even in the bad economy.

This is as good as it gets, and it shouldn't get worse in the near future. Theo has done everything you could reasonably expect of him and more.

[Dipre]

Agreed with Depre. When you take the bad with the good Theo is one of the best general managers in Red Sox history. Especially if you look past the product on the field to the team's overall financial health, which is as strong as it's ever been even in the bad economy.

Just think about it.

No matter how much people hate or love the Red Sox, it's difficult to argue against the fact that the Sox are the team of the decade.

And whose blueprint created this Red Sox team?

[Dojji]

Just think about it.

No matter how much people hate or love the Red Sox, it's difficult to argue against the fact that the Sox are the team of the decade.

And whose blueprint created this Red Sox team?

Not just the blueprint on the field either. You have to give them credit for keeping the financial underpinnings strong, the team popular, the stadium full, and the farm system deep, rich and diverse.

We're contending on an annual basis without sacrificing our long-term future. That's the freaking Holy Grail people. That's the best possible scenario.

[das11209]

I can't really think of a truly disastrous trade Theo made. The closest one was the Gagne trade but frankly we didn't give up that much in that trade. The only player we gave up that has been worth anything to Texas so far is David Murphy, and he would have been at best a 4th OF for us. And we won the World Series despite that trade. I can't really feel too angry about it.

His track record with free agency is far worth than his trade record IMHO.

#1 in my list is Mirabelli trade.

#2 WMP.

#3 Gagne.

Free agent signing we have too many examples : Smoltz, Penny, Lugo, failure to sign Tex, failure to resign Bay in a bad economy, overpaying for Drew etc. etc. I wont even mention Carlos Pena.

By the way - Theo has been one of the best with home grown players - absolutely. Thats what makes his other records look bad.

[Dojji]

#1 in my list is Mirabelli trade.

Really? A trade that sent a relief pitcher to the National League for a backup catcher is #1 on your hate list?

The significance of that trade to the Red Sox beyond the years Miravbelli actually played for us is virtually nil.


#2 WMP.

Because Bronson Arroyo would have saved our season in 2006 right? Right? Given a similar player at a position we'll need in a couple years (say a third baseman) I'd make the same deal over again.


#3 Gagne.

So basically you're telling me that you've got your knickers in a twist over a two much rental of a middle reliever. And the offensive titan that is David Murphy is a player we desperately miss from our offense right now, right?

[Dipre]

#1 in my list is Mirabelli trade.

#2 WMP.

#3 Gagne.

Free agent signing we have too many examples : Smoltz, Penny, Lugo, failure to sign Tex, failure to resign Bay in a bad economy, overpaying for Drew etc. etc. I wont even mention Carlos Pena.

By the way - Theo has been one of the best with home grown players - absolutely. Thats what makes his other records look bad.

1) Cla Meredith sucks ass.

2) Lol Bronson.

3) I'll give you that one.

[The_Destroyah]

Plus many of the players thatwe letgo or got rid of led to draft picks used for valuable prospects we see today.

[das11209]

1) Cla Meredith sucks ass.

2) Lol Bronson.

3) I'll give you that one.

We will have our difference - so let me voice mine. Mirabelli was a waste of roaster spot for long time - he was there just because Tek refused to catch Wakefield. Since then almost all Sox catchers caught him successfully including V-Mart. That should put an end to the myth that only Belli can catch Wake.

Meridith was virtually unhittable for a long stretch of time. Yeah I know diff. league etc. Bard could have been a better back-up than what we had.

Arroyo is no Cy-Yound winner but we could have used him really in 2006 when all no names were pitching for us at the end of the season.

[Dojji]

Smoltz,

I'd try that one again given the chance. Smoltz was a great pitcher and it was worth seeing if he had something left.


Penny,

I'll give you that. Brad Penny doesn't belong in the American League.


Lugo,

Was against the deal at the time, but there wasn't much in the way of better options, and lest we forget, he came up big in the playoffs in 2007. Any signing that proves instrumental in earning a ring isn't all bad. About the only thing I really regret about the Lugo signing is losing the highest #1 pick we've had in years to bring him here.

Given my druthers I'd have told Theo to make a trade for Maicer Izturis. I think at the time, you could probably have gotten that done for Craig Hansen. With the benefit of hindsight that would probably have worked out better.


failure to sign Tex,

Evidence that Teixeira was ever interested in coming to Boston?


failure to resign Bay in a bad economy,

Plenty of time for that before the arbitration deadline after the playoffs.


overpaying for Drew

Drew has been worth every penny.


I wont even mention Carlos Pena.

Where the HECK would we have played him? At the time we had a healthy Ortiz, a healthy Lowell, and a healthy Youkilis occupying the positions he would have played.

Even leaving aside the 20/20 hindsignt of his breakout year there's NWIH that he woul have gotten the playing time to become what he became in Tampa if he'd stayed here.


By the way - Theo has been one of the best with home grown players - absolutely. Thats what makes his other records look bad.

This might be the most ridiculous thing you've said in a post full of ridiclouls things. His skill with young players is what makes everything work and look good.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

#1 in my list is Mirabelli trade.

Mirabelli for Loretta? O yea that was a shitty trade, Loretta was such an awful player.

Oh you mean Josh Bard for Mirabelli? The failure of a knuckleball catcher for the established one?


#2 WMP.

I lol at the thought of Arroyo pitching in the AL east right now.


#3 Gagne.

This was the right move to make. Gagne simply didn't pan out. If I have the option to make a similar move in the future, I do it every time.


Free agent signing we have too many examples : Smoltz, Penny, Lugo, failure to sign Tex, failure to resign Bay in a bad economy, overpaying for Drew etc. etc. I wont even mention Carlos Pena.

Smoltz - ok

Penny - Was signed to be a low-cost innings eater, that's what he proved to be

Lugo - ok

failure to sign Tex - You are, like everyone who looks at this way, fucking delusional

failure to resign Bay - Lolwut? Ever think they're looking at Holliday as his replacement? Holliday > Bay. Sure its risky, but you can't steal second with one foot on first.

overpaying for Drew - With his production these days, we didn't overpay. Especially with MLB's recent contract inflation. Overpaid in 2007 =/= overpaid at the end of his contract.

Carlos Pena - Was a journeyman first baseman who never panned out anywhere he went. You mean you would have looked at this chump as a buried treasure and pulled out all the stops to re-sign him? Where the fuck would we have even put him? Youkilis and Lowell ringing any bells for you?


By the way - Theo has been one of the best with home grown players - absolutely. Thats what makes his other records look bad.

lol

[Dipre]

We will have our difference - so let me voice mine. Mirabelli was a waste of roaster spot for long time - he was there just because Tek refused to catch Wakefield. Since then almost all Sox catchers caught him successfully including V-Mart. That should put an end to the myth that only Belli can catch Wake.

Meridith was virtually unhittable for a long stretch of time. Yeah I know diff. league etc. Bard could have been a better back-up than what we had.

Arroyo is no Cy-Yound winner but we could have used him really in 2006 when all no names were pitching for us at the end of the season.

Tek cannot catch Mirabelli and neither could Bard.

Meredith has SUCKED ASS outside of comfy, spacious, offense suppressing Petco.

2006 was doomed with or without Arroyo and he has sucked for quite some time.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Was against the deal at the time, but there wasn't much in the way of better options, and lest we forget, he came up big in the playoffs in 2007. Any signing that proves instrumental in earning a ring isn't all bad. About the only thing I really regret about the Lugo signing is losing the highest #1 pick we've had in years to bring him here.

Exactly why it was an awful move. A player who wasn't even starting at the end of the previous season, and who's never been respectable, getting a 4/$36mil contract? At the expense of that first round pick? That is fucking awful.

BUT, it was only one move stacked up against some very good ones for Theo.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

We will have our difference - so let me voice mine. Mirabelli was a waste of roaster spot for long time - he was there just because Tek refused to catch Wakefield. Since then almost all Sox catchers caught him successfully including V-Mart. That should put an end to the myth that only Belli can catch Wake.

What in fuck's name...?



Meridith was virtually unhittable for a long stretch of time. Yeah I know diff. league etc. Bard could have been a better back-up than what we had.


NL WEST, PETCO PARK???


Arroyo is no Cy-Yound winner but we could have used him really in 2006 when all no names were pitching for us at the end of the season.

He got worse upon moving to the NL CENTRAL. I think we unloaded him at the right time.

[Dojji]

The year Tek stopped catching Wakefield, his passed-ball rate dropped from around 18 a year to arond 5 a year.

Having Tek catch Wakefield was never an option. He just can't do it. Some can, some can't. He can't.

[ORS]

Rather than hash out the examples of good and bad transactions for Epstein, I'd be curious to know who das considers to be a very good GM.

My point is, all GMs, even good ones, have skeletons in the closet, so focussing on Epstein's bad moves as the example of his deficiencies lacks sound reasoning. If his performance has been bad, then it's bad relative to something good, not relative to himself (his successes vs. his failures).

Furthermore, this smells a lot like hindsight analysis. I'd like to see das show up and put something on the record either for or against future transactions when they happen. All I ever see him do is try and discredit this FO after the fact, which is easy once the results are in.

[Coco's Disciples]

Rather than hash out the examples of good and bad transactions for Epstein, I'd be curious to know who das considers to be a very good GM.

My point is, all GMs, even good ones, have skeletons in the closet, so focussing on Epstein's bad moves as the example of his deficiencies lacks sound reasoning. If his performance has been bad, then it's bad relative to something good, not relative to himself (his successes vs. his failures).

Furthermore, this smells a lot like hindsight analysis. I'd like to see das show up and put something on the record either for or against future transactions when they happen. All I ever see him do is try and discredit this FO after the fact, which is easy once the results are in.

Good post. Joe Posnanski wrote a good piece about Theo as a response to his radio appearance about Drew. He said:


I have talked many times here about a fan’s desperate wish — desperate wish — to have the team see the game the way the fan sees it. I don’t mean specifics — fire the coach, bench the QB, go for it on fourth down and so on. I mean see it in the macro, in a larger way. If I’m a basketball fan, I would love a team that believes in pushing the ball up the floor. If I’m a football fan, I would love a team that believes in pressuring the quarterback and working the middle of the field. If I’m a baseball fan, I would just love to know that my GM really and truly believes that one thing — that it’s really, really, really important for a baseball player to not make outs.

That seems so simple to me, so utterly basic, so law of gravity. But I know that there are GMs in the league — more than you would ever believe — and lots of other people in and around baseball who do not believe this. It isn’t exactly that they are opposed to players who get on base. They certainly want guys to get on base. No, it is that they believe that OBP — the ability to not make outs — falls behind other more mystical talents such as the ability drive in runners in clutch situations or be a leader in the clubhouse or play the game the right way or whatever. I’m not saying these more mystical skills do not exist. Maybe they do. But I know that if you give me a baseball team of people who do not make outs, that team will score a lot of runs. A team of guys who play the game the right way will score a lot of runs too — assuming that “playing the game the right way” includes not making outs.

Anyway, I thought Theo put it perfectly. There’s no question that the Red Sox have some huge advantages over most teams in baseball. They have and spend a lot more money than most, which allows them to be better in so many ways. But they’re awfully smart too. One argument I have never understood is the one where people say that money doesn’t matter because some big money teams lose: “Oh, if money is so important, how come the Mets haven’t won more? The Cubs spend a ton of money, and they didn’t win. The Astros.” And so on. To me that’s a false argument — people have been wasting money since, well, since the invention of money.

But matching money with solid reasoning and serious brainpower, that’s an awfully tough combination to beat … even in a game as volatile and unpredictable as baseball. The Red Sox win every year. And I suspect they will keep winning every year. And I suspect that it would be a whole lot of fun to be a Boston Red Sox fan.

Theo has made his bad moves, like every other GM has. But his philosophy and his business model is a very sound one, and he has executed it every season, with the exception of the one year in which he wasn't a GM for the offseason prior.

[das11209]

Rather than hash out the examples of good and bad transactions for Epstein, I'd be curious to know who das considers to be a very good GM.

My point is, all GMs, even good ones, have skeletons in the closet, so focussing on Epstein's bad moves as the example of his deficiencies lacks sound reasoning. If his performance has been bad, then it's bad relative to something good, not relative to himself (his successes vs. his failures).

Furthermore, this smells a lot like hindsight analysis. I'd like to see das show up and put something on the record either for or against future transactions when they happen. All I ever see him do is try and discredit this FO after the fact, which is easy once the results are in.

I applogize that I do not get in the message board much because of my work load - that's the reason I am posting so late.

ORS brings up a good point that Theo in spite of his mistakes is a good GM if you look at 29 other teams in the league. The question is in MLB there is no cap - so is it fair to accesss the performance of Yankeee/Sox GM's with others? Cleveland Browns have sucked for such a long time in a cap league - and the GM is responsible - but if the Indian's suck - is it the fault of Shapiro - or is it the cheap owners? In other words - with Theo'r resources - will I trust Billy Beane more? The answer for me to that question is absolutely yes.

Also let me reassure you I am nottrying to discredit Theo or FO. I say things that I feel are correct and I try not to look at them in a fan's biased eyes. I don't think it is at all wrong to critisize my team if it can be made better by improving. I know most people here do not feel that way - but it is not a bad thing for a message board to have a different opinion like mine.

[Dipre]

I applogize that I do not get in the message board much because of my work load - that's the reason I am posting so late.

ORS brings up a good point that Theo in spite of his mistakes is a good GM if you look at 29 other teams in the league. The question is in MLB there is no cap - so is it fair to accesss the performance of Yankeee/Sox GM's with others? Cleveland Browns have sucked for such a long time in a cap league - and the GM is responsible - but if the Indian's suck - is it the fault of Shapiro - or is it the cheap owners? In other words - with Theo'r resources - will I trust Billy Beane more? The answer for me to that question is absolutely yes.

Also let me reassure you I am nottrying to discredit Theo or FO. I say things that I feel are correct and I try not to look at them in a fan's biased eyes. I don't think it is at all wrong to critisize my team if it can be made better by improving. I know most people here do not feel that way - but it is not a bad thing for a message board to have a different opinion like mine.

Yeah specially with Oakland's awesome record this year.

[das11209]

Yeah specially with Oakland's awesome record this year.

You missed my point. That's OK.

[Dipre]

You missed my point. That's OK.

No. Because you're trying to use "Salary cap" as an excuse while conveniently ignoring the fact that nearly half this team, and most of the upper-level talent on it, came from the farm.

Nice try.

[das11209]

No. Because you're trying to use "Salary cap" as an excuse while conveniently ignoring the fact that nearly half this team, and most of the upper-level talent on it, came from the farm.

Nice try.

We both agreed Theo has done a good job with home -grown player development. I am saying his performance is sub-par in terms of trades and free agent acquisitions with the resources he has. You completely disagree.

Let us move on - we made our points. I am sure instead of going back and forth in message boards - we can use our time in better way. Like spending time with family, earn more money to name a few.

[ORS]

Sub-par? This again? I asked you to compare him to his peers, ie to establish "par". Please do so, because your resources argument is a cop out.

You mention Beane as being somebody you'd trust more with the Red Sox resources? Really? The same Beane that made Chavez and Crosby, two complete busts, the cornerstones of his franchise? If you think the Drew and Lugo signings were bad, take a look that those two guys. The same Beane who traded Tim Hudson for 3 busts? The same Beane who traded away Ted Lily for Bobby Keilty? This is his Arroyo for WMP moment. This guy?

I'll admit, Beane is limited by the salary constraints, but he hasn't won anything either.

[Dojji]

I think if Theo died in a car crash and we got any one other team's GM in compensation I have to say the guy I'd go for is Friedman of the Rays, not Beame. Now there's a guy who does a lot with a little.

[a700hitter]

I think if Theo died in a car crash and we got any one other team's GM in compensation I have to say the guy I'd go for is Friedman of the Rays, not Beame. Now there's a guy who does a lot with a little.But maybe he can't do a lot with a lot.

[ORS]

Let us move on - we made our points. I am sure instead of going back and forth in message boards - we can use our time in better way. Like spending time with family, earn more money to name a few.
Translation: I don't put a whole lot of thought into my posts, so you shouldn't either. That way, we can all just throw as many thoughtless things out there as our hearts desire without being accountable for what we say.

[ORS]

But maybe he can't do a lot with a lot.
This is a good point. With added resources comes the expectation of using those resources, which exposes GMs from big market teams to more risk of signing a bust that smaller club GMs don't have to worry about.

[BSN07]

Translation: I don't put a whole lot of thought into my posts, so you shouldn't either. That way, we can all just throw as many thoughtless things out there as our hearts desire without being accountable for what we say.

Isn't that the whole point of the internet?:lol:;)

[Rdsxmbnt]

I think if Theo died in a car crash and we got any one other team's GM in compensation I have to say the guy I'd go for is Friedman of the Rays, not Beame. Now there's a guy who does a lot with a little.

Doesn't hurt to get a shot at a franchise player every year for the past decade

[das11209]

Isn't that the whole point of the internet?:lol:;)

He is right in the sense I am not as serious as some other posters. I come here to see different opinions - and share my own. It might occur to someone that I am not putting lot of thought into my posts - and I don't care. It is not my day job.