Red Sox Re-Acquire Alex Gonzalez

[BoSox21]

Figured it warrants its own thread...


The Red Sox have completed a trade with the Cincinnati Reds, bringing shortstop Alex Gonzalez back to Boston.

Gonzalez is not expected to join the team until tomorrow in Texas. The most likely move would involve the Sox releasing infielder Chris Woodward to make room for Gonzalez on the roster.

Gonzalez, as Red Sox fans will recall, is an excellent defensive player who should sure up the team's defensive issues on the left side of the infield. His contract calls for a $6 million club option next season, meaning the Sox will have the right to retain to his services.

It was unclear whom the Sox are sending to Cincinnati in exchange for Gonzalez. We hope to have more on on this shortly.

Gary Dzen - Boston Globe

Discuss...

[italstallianion]

I've got a bad feeling about this...not that money is that much of an issue or anything, but how much money are we going to waste on these players that we'll end up releasing within a week? I'm not saying that'll necessarily be the case with Alex Gonzalez, but it makes the Woodward transaction an even bigger waste.

[Paradisecity]

Good thing we saved all that offseason acquisition money last offseason so we could dump it on 40+ injured pitchers and guys who hit so poorly they were already shooed out of town by management once.

[BOSOX11]

They must have a revolving door installed in the clubhouse at Fenway.

[BoSox21]

I've got a bad feeling about this...not that money is that much of an issue or anything, but how much money are we going to waste on these players that we'll end up releasing within a week? I'm not saying that'll necessarily be the case with Alex Gonzalez, but it makes the Woodward transaction an even bigger waste.

So basically you're advocating keeping Woodward over Gonzalez to save on spending money which isn't yours?

[italstallianion]

So basically you're advocating keeping Woodward over Gonzalez to save on spending money which isn't yours?


No. That's not the case. I do however think we shouldn't have acquired Woodward in the first place if we were going to get Gonzalez within a week later.

[Dipre]

No. That's not the case. I do however think we shouldn't have acquired Woodward in the first place if we were going to get Gonzalez within a week later.

You're being illogical.

There was no way to know if Gonzales was gonna be available until he cleared waivers.

Besides, what did the Sox pay Woodward, 100 bucks plus a couple meals?

Calm down, sir.

[Coco's Disciples]

Huzzah. I guess.

[italstallianion]

You're being illogical.

There was no way to know if Gonzales was gonna be available until he cleared waivers.

Besides, what did the Sox pay Woodward, 100 bucks plus a couple meals?

Calm down, sir.



Over the top, perhaps, but nowhere near illogical. The accountant in me is s******* himself right now. I have a feeling I'll be called up to play SS for the Red Sox by the end of the Texas series.

[BoSox21]

No. That's not the case. I do however think we shouldn't have acquired Woodward in the first place if we were going to get Gonzalez within a week later.

Woodward was simply an emergency backup for Green otherwise the only other option would have been Gil Velazquez

[Dojji]

Not really happy about this. Gonzo isn't the player he was in 2006 and not everyone liked him even in 2006. It's not even like he ever hit much either. There's literally no upside here.

[cobra24]

wow! this is very stupid.. wtf!

[cobra24]

The A's are talking about parting ways with Nomar Garciaparra. why dont we try and get him? Thats way better then Gonzalez.

[Dipre]

The A's are talking about parting ways with Nomar Garciaparra. why dont we try and get him? Thats way better then Gonzalez.

He can barely play D at the corners, much less SS.

[v2freak]

With Lowell, Gonzalez and Kotchman, the Sox are back to that iron-defense line up. Unfortunately, I don't think the Sox should try to be more like that 2006 line up.

[CrespoBlows]

The A's are talking about parting ways with Nomar Garciaparra. why dont we try and get him? Thats way better then Gonzalez.

Can't play SS.

[Jasonbay44]

The A's are talking about parting ways with Nomar Garciaparra. why dont we try and get him? Thats way better then Gonzalez.

Way better then Gonzalez? Can Nomar even still play SS? He hasn't played a game at SS all season and if he cant play SS he would be worthless for the Sox to acquire.

[cobra24]

Can't play SS.

yes that is my point.. lol that makes two of them. Gonzalez isnt any better.

[Dipre]

yes that is my point.. lol that makes two of them. Gonzalez isnt any better.

You're extremely wrong sir.

Although his range has diminished, Gonzales is still an above-average defensive SS.

[cobra24]

Green is still the best SS the sox have right now. i dont know why they picked up Gonzalez. i dont get that at all.

and i was making a joke.. Nomar cant play 1st let alone SS. and Gonzalez is batting what? .200!

[Jasonbay44]

I cannot wait for the day when the Sox actually get a good SS.

[cobra24]

You're extremely wrong sir.

Although his range has diminished, Gonzales is still an above-average defensive SS.


they need someone that can hit alittle and he cant. i would take a little less D at this point.

[cobra24]

I cannot wait for the day when the Sox actually get a good SS.


Lets hope for this off season...

[Tripleplay]

Oh dear.

[italstallianion]

I cannot wait for the day when the Sox actually get a good SS.


Luckily for you, David Renfroe should be up here by 2011. ;)

[BSN07]

Gonzalez is ok. The biggest thing everyone has been complaining about is defense at the SS position. With Agon, at least DP's should be made. If the rest of the Sox lineup is hitting reasonably well then his bat won't seem as bad.


It's a short term thing anyway. They won't pick up his option.

[Jasonbay44]

Is this the last year of his deal?

He has a team option for next year worth $6 million.

[BSN07]

He has a team option for next year worth $6 million.

Ya I realized it after I hit post lol

[Javier Lopez]

Oh my God...2006 is happening all over again, they even brought back Alex Gonzalez to make it look exactly like its happening all over again....

[BoSox21]

I think this team can and will hit enough to be a serious contender, as long as they play Lowell at DH more often than not. I'll take the improved defense at SS. If you take Kotchman at first, Youk at third, Gonzalez and short and Pedey at second, that's very formidable infield defense.

Ellsbury - CF
Pedroia - 2B
Youkilis - 3B
Martinez - C
Bay - LF
Drew - RF
Lowell - DH
Kotchman - 1B
Gonzalez - SS

That lineup should hit pretty well.

[cobra24]

I think this team can and will hit enough to be a serious contender, as long as they play Lowell at DH more often than not. I'll take the improved defense at SS. If you take Kotchman at first, Youk at third, Gonzalez and short and Pedey at second, that's very formidable infield defense.

Ellsbury - CF
Pedroia - 2B
Youkilis - 3B
Martinez - C
Bay - LF
Drew - RF
Lowell - DH
Kotchman - 1B
Gonzalez - SS

That lineup should hit pretty well.

Lets see if Francona has the balls to bench Papi and Tek. Then i might have a little bit of faith.

[Gosawks]

I like this move. I loved him when he was here in 2006, and thought the Sox should have held onto him. He's probably the best defensive SS I have ever seen (keep in mind that I'm only 18), and I really don't mind if he doesn't hit, because none of the other options have been hitting anyways. Nice move.

[a700hitter]

This makes the Guzman trade look better. At least, he has some offensive skills.

[italstallianion]

Looks like we gave up Kris Negron in the deal.


A little refresher on Kris Negron:

Speedy infielder plays 2B, SS, 3B, and all three OF positions. Top notch glove with excellent range. At the plate, Negron gets on base at an okay clip, but the hits just aren't there enough. He has a good eye at the plate but still hacks on pitches out of the zone on occasion. Exceptionally fast down the line to first, and quick on the basepaths. Negron would be a prototypical leadoff hitter if he could make more contact.

[Dojji]

In other words, a 23 year old A ball utility man with big problems making contact.

what's below the level of a dojji type anyway?

[Gosawks]

This makes the Guzman trade look better. At least, he has some offensive skills.

The Red Sox never claimed Guzman on waivers and the Nationals came out and said that he would not be traded. He was never an option.

[jacksonianmarch]

I wouldnt call Gonzalez a big defensive upgrade anymore. He's lost a TON of range due to his knee injuries. His hands are as slick as ever, and his arm is still solid, but a shortstop makes his bacon on range and he doesnt have it. Maybe he needs to do what Jeter did and go to Athlete's Performance in the offseason, cause if he could regain what he was for you guys 3 yrs ago, he'd be really useful

[BoSox21]

I wouldnt call Gonzalez a big defensive upgrade anymore. He's lost a TON of range due to his knee injuries. His hands are as slick as ever, and his arm is still solid, but a shortstop makes his bacon on range and he doesnt have it. Maybe he needs to do what Jeter did and go to Athlete's Performance in the offseason, cause if he could regain what he was for you guys 3 yrs ago, he'd be really useful

over Nick Green? yea, he's a big defensive upgrade

[jacksonianmarch]

Over Nick Green, he is better defensively mostly because Green has no range, hands or accurate arm. I just think that they got a guy for past performances on the cheap hoping that he can regain his form.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox never claimed Guzman on waivers and the Nationals came out and said that he would not be traded. He was never an option.
Whether he was an option or not, we had a pretty heated discussion regarding the value of getting him. Some posters were very negative about getting Guzman. I think this acquisition makes a deal for Guzman look good. It doesn't matter that it was not an option.

[Dojji]

Whether he was an option or not, we had a pretty heated discussion regarding the value of getting him. Some posters were very negative about getting Guzman. I think this acquisition makes a deal for Guzman look good. It doesn't matter that it was not an option.

No, this is still a better option. Guzman wasn't just a big fat risk this season, he also would have cost us $8M for next season as well. At least Gonzalez is a true low risk flier who won't have any repercussions in 2010.

[Keeper]

I agree about Guzman being a better option.

If Gonzalez approaches the .793 OPS he put up with the Reds last year, it's a good move. If he continues with this year's suck, it's a meh move.

[a700hitter]

No, this is still a better option. Guzman wasn't just a big fat risk this season, he also would have cost us $8M for next season as well. At least Gonzalez is a true low risk flier who won't have any repercussions in 2010.But he sucks. He can't hit his weight.

[Dojji]

But he sucks. He can't hit his weight.

Then he can't, but at least even if he can't he doesn't set the team back. If Guzman bombs, we're on the hook for $17M worth of suck at shortstop and are impeded in our quest to obtain Hanley Ramirez in the offseason.

[jacksonianmarch]

No, this is still a better option. Guzman wasn't just a big fat risk this season, he also would have cost us $8M for next season as well. At least Gonzalez is a true low risk flier who won't have any repercussions in 2010.

unless they pick up his option

[Dojji]

unless they pick up his option

There is no way whatsoever that the Boston Red Sox pick up Gonzalez' option. For one thing there's a chance he might be a T ype B. If not, they can probably resign Gonzalez far cheaper than that on the free market.

they've made their intentions pretty clear IMHO. Plug in scrubs and trash this year, clear the roster and go for a good SS in the offseason.

[Gosawks]

Whether he was an option or not, we had a pretty heated discussion regarding the value of getting him. Some posters were very negative about getting Guzman. I think this acquisition makes a deal for Guzman look good. It doesn't matter that it was not an option.


We can talk all we want about getting a player but if he isn't available it does not really matter does it? We can talk about trading for Albert Pujlos too, but if there is no evidence that he is available or if we dont have intrest in Guzman then why are we have a dicussion about Guzman? You are making it sound like an option by saying it makes Guzman look like a good deal when there was no dicussions between the Red Sox and Nationals for Guzman. See what im getting at here?

[jacksonianmarch]

There is no way whatsoever that the Boston Red Sox pick up Gonzalez' option. For one thing there's a chance he might be a T ype B. If not, they can probably resign Gonzalez far cheaper than that on the free market.

they've made their intentions pretty clear IMHO. Plug in scrubs and trash this year, clear the roster and go for a good SS in the offseason.

Who? There arent any available on the FA market, unless you consider Jack Wilson a good SS. The SS market is WAY down and the best ones are either locked in (Hanley, Jeter) or so young that they are cost controlled (Andrus, Escobar). The sox may be stuck looking for a defense first SS for the short term while giving Lowrie a shot at developing.

[Dojji]

Who? There arent any available on the FA market, unless you consider Jack Wilson a good SS. The SS market is WAY down and the best ones are either locked in (Hanley, Jeter) or so young that they are cost controlled (Andrus, Escobar). The sox may be stuck looking for a defense first SS for the short term while giving Lowrie a shot at developing.

What about Michael Young or Jhonny Peralta? there's a good reason both should be available (CLE Cabrera + rebuilding, TEX Andrus + budget)

[cobra24]

I vote for Michael Young...

[TedWilliams101]

Stupid. They should have gotten Cabrera while he was available. It was known that Toronto wanted to get rid of Scutaro. This has to be the worst option possible. .258 OBP this season, and that is supposed to be an upgrade or depth how? Gonzalez is one of the worse overall SS in baseball right now.

[a700hitter]

We can talk all we want about getting a player but if he isn't available it does not really matter does it? We can talk about trading for Albert Pujlos too, but if there is no evidence that he is available or if we dont have intrest in Guzman then why are we have a dicussion about Guzman? You are making it sound like an option by saying it makes Guzman look like a good deal when there was no dicussions between the Red Sox and Nationals for Guzman. See what im getting at here?There was a report that Sox had claimed him. A lively debate had ensued. I was comparing that hypothetical acquisition to this. I wasn't saying that it is or was an option.

[cobra24]

No, this is still a better option. Guzman wasn't just a big fat risk this season, he also would have cost us $8M for next season as well. At least Gonzalez is a true low risk flier who won't have any repercussions in 2010.


Where is the risk? his numbers are pretty damn good... and how is Gonzalez a better fit right now? he is trash!

[BSN07]

There was a report that Sox had claimed him. A lively debate had ensued. I was comparing that hypothetical acquisition to this. I wasn't saying that it is or was an option.

Guzman hit's marginally better then green. But his defense might be worse. Even if Agon doesn't hit much out of the 9th spot, at least he can field the position.

What good are singles if your giving the other team extra outs in the field?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

People are actually mad about this?


Gonzalez is a good defensive SS. Becomes the best one on the team, by a good margin. He can't hit, but I'd rather have an incompetent bat combined with quality fielding than a shaky bat combined with a shaky fielder.

[CrespoBlows]

over Nick Green? yea, he's a big defensive upgrade

Gonzalez is an average defensive SS, but he doesn't make nearly the amount of errors that Green does.

This move isn't an upgrade.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Where is the risk? his numbers are pretty damn good... and how is Gonzalez a better fit right now? he is trash!
Defense is trash?

[a700hitter]

Where is the risk? his numbers are pretty damn good... and how is Gonzalez a better fit right now? he is trash!Doji almost always addresses financial risk to the exclusion of the risk that is important to most fans--- that the guy will suck. AGon sucks. Guzman does not.

[a700hitter]

Gonzalez is an average defensive SS, but he doesn't make nearly the amount of errors that Green does.

This move isn't an upgrade.
He might actually be an inferior offensive player compared to Green at this stage in his career.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Doji almost always addresses financial risk to the exclusion of the risk that is important to most fans--- that the guy will suck. AGon sucks. Guzman does not.

Gonzalez can play defense. Guzman's decent, but not as good as Gonzalez. He also comes with a much higher price tag. You may not care about that kind of thing, but the team does (and rightfully so, since it is their money).


He might actually be an inferior offensive player compared to Green at this stage in his career.

Doesn't really matter.

[cobra24]

Defense is trash?

he is a little better then Green with his D, that is it. at least Green will find the base path when is up to bat.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

he is a little better then Green with his D, that is it. at least Green will find the base path when is up to bat.
Gonzalez's defense is better than Green's by a fair margin. I'd rather have a guy who is proficient at one major part of the game and sucks at another, than a guy who isn't too good at either.

[cobra24]

Gonzalez can play defense. Guzman's decent, but not as good as Gonzalez. He also comes with a much higher price tag. You may not care about that kind of thing, but the team does (and rightfully so, since it is their money).



Doesn't really matter.


wow, you have to be kidding me... Guzman is way better then Gonzalez...

[Spudboy]

There was a report that Sox had claimed him. A lively debate had ensued. I was comparing that hypothetical acquisition to this. I wasn't saying that it is or was an option.

That discussion took place before this kid came aboard, I believe.

[a700hitter]

Gonzalez can play defense. Guzman's decent, but not as good as Gonzalez. He also comes with a much higher price tag. You may not care about that kind of thing, but the team does (and rightfully so, since it is their money).
Well, since the fans that buy lots of tickets, like me, provide the revenue, the management of the team is in the business of pleasing the fans. This move doesn't please me.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Well, since the fans that buy lots of tickets, like me, provide the revenue, the management of the team is in the business of pleasing the fans. This move doesn't please me.
The Guzman move looks pleasing right now, but I can't help but feel you'd change your tune when his $8M salary for next year could end up blocking other moves for improvement.

Guzman is grossly overpaid.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

wow, you have to be kidding me... Guzman is way better then Gonzalez...
Not entirely.

[a700hitter]

Guzman hit's marginally better then green. But his defense might be worse. Even if Agon doesn't hit much out of the 9th spot, at least he can field the position.

What good are singles if your giving the other team extra outs in the field?Guzman is far superior to Green offensively.

[CrespoBlows]

wow, you have to be kidding me... Guzman is way better then Gonzalez...

Defensively? Guzman is an atrocious defender.

[cobra24]

The Guzman move looks pleasing right now, but I can't help but feel you'd change your tune when his $8M salary for next year could end up blocking other moves for improvement.

Guzman is grossly overpaid.

He might be over paid, but we could have used him this year to have a much better chance at winning it all. also, we could have traded him in the off season and we would not have to worry about that money.

[Looch Ness Monster]

People are actually mad about this?


Gonzalez is a good defensive SS. Becomes the best one on the team, by a good margin. He can't hit, but I'd rather have an incompetent bat combined with quality fielding than a shaky bat combined with a shaky fielder.

People thought Gonzalez was a good defensive SS in 2006. It's been injuries that have set him back. There's a reason the 4th place REDS placed him on waivers.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

In a nutshell, here's the thing: our lineup, when everyone's producing up to par, is good enough to where we can install some Glovey McNoodlebat in the 9 spot and not really feel the effects. If it gets to the point where our other hitters are all shitting the bed at once and we need the SS to produce at the plate, we're not winning anything anyway.

Gonzalez is a proficient defender and a crap hitter. I can live with that.

[CrespoBlows]

He might be over paid, but we could have used him this year to have a much better chance at winning it all. also, we could have traded him in the off season and we would not have to worry about that money.

Who is going to take his contract?

[cobra24]

Defensively? Guzman is an atrocious defender.

He is WAY better then Gonzalez in his all around game..

[TedWilliams101]

We can talk all we want about getting a player but if he isn't available it does not really matter does it? We can talk about trading for Albert Pujlos too, but if there is no evidence that he is available or if we dont have intrest in Guzman then why are we have a dicussion about Guzman? You are making it sound like an option by saying it makes Guzman look like a good deal when there was no dicussions between the Red Sox and Nationals for Guzman. See what im getting at here?

I would rather Guzman, Asdrubal Cabrera, Scutaro, O-Cab, Tulowitzki, Peralta, Stephen Drew, Andrus, Eckstein, Barms, or Hardy over Gonzo (not including the off-limits guys). Surely, at least one of those guys were/are available.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

People thought Gonzalez was a good defensive SS in 2006. It's been injuries that have set him back. There's a reason the 4th place REDS placed him on waivers.
What does that have to do with anything? The Reds placed him on waivers because they're out of contention, trying to cut costs, have a couple of internal SS options for next year, and would take anything they could get in return for an expendable player. If a contending team placed him on waivers, then you might be onto something.

Gonzalez isn't near GG status anymore, but he can still do a respectable job.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

He is WAY better then Gonzalez in his all around game..
We're not really worrying about his all-around game. We're not going to get a good all around shortstop at this point in the season. Gonzalez is a quality defender. We don't have any shortstops that are any good offensively, so Gonzalez by default becomes our best option.

[CrespoBlows]

Gonzalez is a proficient defender and a crap hitter. I can live with that.

Proficient? Not anymore.

I guess he's better than Woodward.

[BSN07]

Doji almost always addresses financial risk to the exclusion of the risk that is important to most fans--- that the guy will suck. AGon sucks. Guzman does not.

Typical a700. Everything now now now. Don't care about this off season or next season, only now. We shouldn't be shocked.
We will just concentrate on Guzman's performance. Not the teams.

Guzman comes in. hits .270 .330 OBP couple HR's. He hits ok, but his defense is not good. Would that be worth the move? Can you honestly expect more then that out of him?


I basically just describes what Julio Lugo was in Boston. Guzman=Lugo. Do you really want him at SS now and for 2010?

Let me run a scenario by you since you normally like to do the "worst case" variety.

What if the acquire him and it keeps them from going after a legit young SS this off season? You would be first in line trashing the FO and be cursing Guzman's name. If you don't believe me just think if this headline, " Sox back out of Hanley deal. Sox are committed to Guzman for 2010".

[Looch Ness Monster]

What does that have to do with anything? The Reds placed him on waivers because they're out of contention, trying to cut costs, have a couple of internal SS options for next year, and would take anything they could get in return for an expendable player. If a contending team placed him on waivers, then you might be onto something.

Gonzalez isn't near GG status anymore, but he can still do a respectable job.

UZR in 2006 11.8
UZR now 2.0

[cobra24]

UZR in 2006 11.8
UZR now 2.0

Whats UZR?

[Gosawks]

Gonzalez is an average defensive SS, but he doesn't make nearly the amount of errors that Green does.

This move isn't an upgrade.

Have you ever watched Gonzalez play defense? Gonzalez is a great defensive shortstop. His UZR is a +4 and has commited only 6 errors in 266 chances. Green has 14 errors in 308 chances and a UZR of-5.0 and a .955 Fielding percentage. It is stupid to compare Nick Green who is a below average defensive shortstop and Gonzalez who is a great defensive shortstop. This is comparing Apples and Oranges.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I would rather Guzman

Covered.


Asdrubal Cabrera

Cleveland's rebuilding, Cabrera's part of their future plans. Not available for anything reasonable.


Scutaro,

Risky, because he's so far over his career norms right now (in his mid-30s) that he could see the rug pulled out from under him at any time.


O-Cab,

I think they would have opted for him is he was truly available.


Tulowitzki,

Not a chance, Rockies are also in contention.


Peralta,

See O-Cab


Stephen Drew, Andrus,

Not a chance.


Eckstein,

Not a good player anymore.


Barms

Rockies are in contention, I doubt they make any shake-ups.


or Hardy

The Hardy that just got banished to the minors?

[SoxSport]

Probably the best option they could have gotten right now in terms of value. It won't cost them much, and I'm sure that's a consideration vs Guzman, for example.
Hard to say where AGon is right now, coming off injuries. Seems to be hot with the bat. If he can be steady at SS, that's probably enough.
Lugo is on a tear right now in StL. He looked a step slower in the field post injury in Boston. Maybe they didn't wait long enough on him. They didn't wait much on Cabrera or Renteria, either.

[BSN07]

Ultimate Zone Rating I believe. It's a defensive statistic so to speak.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Whats UZR?

Ultimate Zone Rating "The number of runs above or below average a fielder is in both range runs and error runs combined." - Fangraphs

He would be second in the majors at SS with that UZR this season.

[TedWilliams101]

2009:
Gonzalez: 2.0 UZR (fielding runs above average), -7 RAR, -.7 WAR
Guzman: -5.2 UZR, 13.1 RAR, 1.3 WAR
Green: 3.3 UZR, 5.7 RAR, 0.6 WAR

So this year, even though Guzman is the worst fielder of the bunch, his bat equates to the most wins.

[BSN07]

2009:
Gonzalez: 2.0 UZR (fielding runs above average), -7 RAR, -.7 WAR
Guzman: -5.2 UZR, 13.1 RAR, 1.3 WAR
Green: 3.3 UZR, 5.7 RAR, 0.6 WAR

So this year, even though Guzman is the worst fielder of the bunch, his bat equates to the most wins.

Will that make it easier for you to watch when he's air mailing balls into the seats?:D

[Coco's Disciples]

I think they would have opted for him is he was truly available.


He was available.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

He was available.
Source? And what was the price tag?

[Coco's Disciples]

Source? And what was the price tag?

Source. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4369219) Price tag was a mediocre MiLB SS.

[CrespoBlows]

Have you ever watched Gonzalez play defense? Gonzalez is a great defensive shortstop. His UZR is a +4 and has commited only 6 errors in 266 chances. Green has 14 errors in 308 chances and a UZR of-5.0 and a .955 Fielding percentage. It is stupid to compare Nick Green who is a below average defensive shortstop and Gonzalez who is a great defensive shortstop. This is comparing Apples and Oranges.


but he doesn't make nearly the amount of errors that Green does.

I agree with you on the error part, but I don't think your numbers are correct. Fangraphs has Green at +3.3, and Gonzalez at +2.0.

[WhiskeyBreath]

they need someone that can hit alittle and he cant. i would take a little less D at this point.

No, they need someone who can get the job done defensively right now. Anything from the bat would be just a bonus.

[CrespoBlows]

Source? And what was the price tag?

Went pretty cheap to the Twins.

[TedWilliams101]

Risky, because he's so far over his career norms right now (in his mid-30s) that he could see the rug pulled out from under him at any time.

Still better than Gonzo right now.


I think they would have opted for him is he was truly available.

He was traded to Min, he was available and we obviously weren't interested enough.


Not a chance, Rockies are also in contention.
I never think the Rockies are in contention because they suck so bad. How great it is to be in the NL West.


See O-Cab

If Cleveland is in rebuilding mode and sticking with Cabrera, why would they need to keep Peralta?


Not a chance.

Arizona isn't going anywhere, I'm sure they would at least listen to offers. Same with Andrus.


Not a good player anymore.

Way better than Gonzalez right now.


The Hardy that just got banished to the minors?

Again, better than Gonzalez with huge upside. His value is likely also down because of the slump.

[SoxSport]

Whats UZR?

That's a fair question. LOL. One of those defensive stats which are fine but can be misleading because they depend on the number of chances. It's like OPS, etc. for hitting. You have to have a lot of at bats for the numbers to be meaningful.

I wouldn't trust any such numbers for AGon recently, since he's been injured and hasn't played enough for the numbers to be significant. A scout can tell more just by watching him in the field for a few games.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Source. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4369219) Price tag was a mediocre MiLB SS.
Has he been available during the waiver period?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Went pretty cheap to the Twins.
And how about the waiver period?

And why didn't Theo make that move, then?

[CrespoBlows]

That's a fair question. LOL. One of those defensive stats which are fine but can be misleading because they depend on the number of chances. It's like OPS, etc. for hitting. You have to have a lot of at bats for the numbers to be meaningful.

I wouldn't trust any such numbers for AGon recently, since he's been injured and hasn't played enough for the numbers to be significant. A scout can tell more just by watching him in the field for a few games.

Umm... no.

[BSN07]

Has he been available during the waiver period?

I think they were implying to when he was available before he was traded to the Twins.

[cobra24]

Is Gonzalez going to be in Texas tonight?

[TedWilliams101]

Has he been available during the waiver period?

Have we not had major problems (revolving door) at SS since 2004? Of course we weren't looking to upgrade SS before the trading deadline; Green is soo good he is a career minor leaguer and Lowrie has shown us soo much and is an iron horse... :rolleyes:

Theo needed to make more moves before the trading deadline. He didn't and we are now getting screwed.

Also, Now wouldn't have been a bad time to have Lugo around. As much as it is a pain watching him field, I think I would rather have him as a backup at this point than Gonzalez.

[a700hitter]

Typical a700. Everything now now now. Don't care about this off season or next season, only now. We shouldn't be shocked.
We will just concentrate on Guzman's performance. Not the teams.

Guzman comes in. hits .270 .330 OBP couple HR's. He hits ok, but his defense is not good. Would that be worth the move? Can you honestly expect more then that out of him?


I basically just describes what Julio Lugo was in Boston. Guzman=Lugo. Do you really want him at SS now and for 2010?

Let me run a scenario by you since you normally like to do the "worst case" variety.

What if the acquire him and it keeps them from going after a legit young SS this off season? You would be first in line trashing the FO and be cursing Guzman's name. If you don't believe me just think if this headline, " Sox back out of Hanley deal. Sox are committed to Guzman for 2010".A team like the Red Sox has the financial resources to compete now and plan for the future. Small market teams have to chose between those options. The Red Sox do not. You guys worry about the FO money more than they do. They have thrown boatloads of cash at players for performances that don't come close to justifying those payments-- $70 million for Drew, $36 million for Lugo and a whopping $102 million for Dice K. I really don't want to hear that the $52 million posting fee doesn't count, because it isn't payroll. If you want to talk finances, that $52 million affects the bottom line. They throw $ around like stupid drunken sailors, but if I post my opinion that thy should get a serviceable SS, you castigate me. "Look at a700, he always wants to win now. He doesn't care about the future." I'm tired of that malarkey. The fans pay the highest ticket prices in baseball, and we have to watch Nick Green at SS all season? This is what all of our money buys us at SS? He must be close to being the worst SS in baseball. Red Sox revenue is toward the top of the league, so why shouldn't we expect a better SS... just something that's not embarrassing? Something is wrong with this picture when one of the richest teams has the worst SS. It's not the fans fault. It's the fault of the FO. So, yes I want Guzman and yes I could care less about the $8 million among the scores of millions that this FO has flushed down the toilet.

[WhiskeyBreath]

Is Gonzalez going to be in Texas tonight?

Most likely not.

[CrespoBlows]

And how about the waiver period?

And why didn't Theo make that move, then?

I think it was because Lowrie was available at the time. As for Glove-Noodlebat SS, Jed Lowrie fits the bill when he gets back.

[Coco's Disciples]

Has he been available during the waiver period?

No, but shortstop was a problem before the deadline and Cabrera could have been acquired.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Still better than Gonzo right now.

Also more expensive, since Scutaro could end up being a Type A free agent.


He was traded to Min, he was available and we obviously weren't interested enough.

And why not?


If Cleveland is in rebuilding mode and sticking with Cabrera, why would they need to keep Peralta?

Because there's two middle infield spots.


Arizona isn't going anywhere, I'm sure they would at least listen to offers.

Drew is cheap and one of the only bright spots in their organization right now. I think they'd trade Haren before Drew.


Same with Andrus.

Andrus plays for the Rangers, the very team we're facing this weekend in a critical series with wild card implications. I think they're in it. Andrus is also very young and under control for a while. He will not be traded unless Jon Daniels is a total idiot.


Way better than Gonzalez right now.

Eckstein? No.


Again, better than Gonzalez with huge upside. His value is likely also down because of the slump.

So why wasn't he acquired?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I think it was because Lowrie was available at the time.
Great point.


As for Glove-Noodlebat SS, Jed Lowrie fits the bill when he gets back.

The FO knows more than we do about his injury, and maybe that contributed to them making this move.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Have we not had major problems (revolving door) at SS since 2004? Of course we weren't looking to upgrade SS before the trading deadline; Green is soo good he is a career minor leaguer and Lowrie has shown us soo much and is an iron horse... :rolleyes:
As Crespo said, the FO was thinking Lowrie would be the answer at that point. Well, he's on the DL again. Shame on the FO for not forseeing that.

[a700hitter]

As Crespo said, the FO was thinking Lowrie would be the answer at that point. Well, he's on the DL again. Shame on the FO for not forseeing that.You say that sarcastically, but he did have surgery, and originally they thought it would be season ending surgery. After the operation the medical staff felt that he could rehab and come back. Lowrie getting reinjured or not getting back to full form this season was not completely unforeseeable. They had no contingency plan.

[TedWilliams101]

As Crespo said, the FO was thinking Lowrie would be the answer at that point. Well, he's on the DL again. Shame on the FO for not forseeing that.

Yes, because Lowrie has been sooo impressive so far. The point is that they got one of the worst SS right now. How can you be happy with that? How does a -.7 WAR help the team? The only way this works out is if Gonzalez goes on a tear, but there really isn't anything to suggest he will. He sucks right now, like, really really bad (.258 OBP).

[italstallianion]

UZR in 2006 11.8
UZR now 2.0


For the record, his UZR/150 is 4.0

[BSN07]

A team like the Red Sox has the financial resources to compete now and plan for the future. Small market teams have to chose between those options. The Red Sox do not. You guys worry about the FO money more than they do. They have thrown boatloads of cash at players for performances that don't come close to justifying those payments-- $70 million for Drew, $36 million for Lugo and a whopping $102 million for Dice K. I really don't want to hear that the $52 million posting fee doesn't count, because it isn't payroll. If you want to talk finances, that $52 million affects the bottom line. They throw $ around like stupid drunken sailors, but if I post my opinion that thy should get a serviceable SS, you castigate me. "Look at a700, he always wants to win now. He doesn't care about the future." I'm tired of that malarkey. The fans pay the highest ticket prices in baseball, and we have to watch Nick Green at SS all season? This is what all of our money buys us at SS? He must be close to being the worst SS in baseball. Red Sox revenue is toward the top of the league, so why shouldn't we expect a better SS... just something that's not embarrassing? Something is wrong with this picture when one of the richest teams has the worst SS. It's not the fans fault. It's the fault of the FO. So, yes I want Guzman and yes I could care less about the $8 million among the scores of millions that this FO has flushed down the toilet.

You could care less about the 8M. But the owners might care a great deal, even if they are making a lot of money. There million and billionaire's for a reason. Like I said you will be cussing Guzman and the owners and whoever else is he prevents the Sox from adding someone of consequence.

But you will be loving it when Agon is gone after October and the Sox are free to pursue whoever.

[CrespoBlows]

Yes, because Lowrie has been sooo impressive so far. The point is that they got one of the worst SS right now. How can you be happy with that? How does a -.7 WAR help the team? The only way this works out is if Gonzalez goes on a tear, but there really isn't anything to suggest he will. He sucks right now, like, really really bad (.258 OBP).

Yes, but he'd most likely be the best defensive option, and it's unlikely he'd continue to hit this poorly.

[TedWilliams101]

Also more expensive, since Scutaro could end up being a Type A free agent.

Oh my, he is a little more expensive! Don't break the bank! Who cares if he is gone after this season? We need to eventually find a long-term solution to SS (Hanley Ramirez, damn it). Right now, though, we need to get the best band-aid available and I don't think Gonzalez is it.

[italstallianion]

I've read in a lot of places that we could have had Orlando Cabrera for pretty cheap. I heard Oakland wanted Fernando Cabrera and someone else. I forget who but it was one of those older AAAA players in Pawtucket that I'm confident almost everyone here would agree is expendable.

And the Sox were in on the deal but Cabrera did not want to come to Boston. It was clear that bridges were burned on his way out the last time and that it wasn't going to work. If Orlando Cabrera were a robot and you exchanged his personality with someone elses (but kept the playing ability), he'd most likely be in Boston right now. We had the chance at a great deal but Cabrera was definitely not coming back to Boston.

[BSN07]

This could be the first move. It wouldn't be unthinkable they got Agon for insurance just in case they can't pull another deal off. Maybe they add someone else and let Green go before September 1.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Yes, because Lowrie has been sooo impressive so far. The point is that they got one of the worst SS right now. How can you be happy with that? How does a -.7 WAR help the team? The only way this works out is if Gonzalez goes on a tear, but there really isn't anything to suggest he will. He sucks right now, like, really really bad (.258 OBP).
Everyone knows about his offensive incompetence. That's not what he's being acquired for. He's a reasonably good defender who isn't nearly as error-happy as Green. You're not going to find all-around good shortstops this time of year. No matter who we acquired to fill this void, the board would be just about split on it.

[TedWilliams101]

Yes, but he'd most likely be the best defensive option, and it's unlikely he'd continue to hit this poorly.

The guys is a career .246, .293, .393, .687 and is beyond struggling this season. He is likely near the end of his career. I don't see how you can see him improving enough to be valuable.

[a700hitter]

You could care less about the 8M. But the owners might care a great deal, even if they are making a lot of money. There million and billionaire's for a reason. Like I said you will be cussing Guzman and the owners and whoever else is he prevents the Sox from adding someone of consequence.

But you will be loving it when Agon is gone after October and the Sox are free to pursue whoever.I'm sure they do care about the $8 million, but they have acted irresponsibly in the past, so why would I care if they overpaid for one more player for one stinking year? They usually overpay for 4, 5, or 6 years when they screw up. A 1 year $8 miilion hit for a SS when they spent $5.5 million on Smoltz and another $5 million on Penny? $8 million on Guzman would be a bargain compare to that.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Oh my, he is a little more expensive! Don't break the bank! Who cares if he is gone after this season? We need to eventually find a long-term solution to SS (Hanley Ramirez, damn it). Right now, though, we need to get the best band-aid available and I don't think Gonzalez is it.
Not overpaying is the difference between Boston's 2 world series titles this decade, to New York's none. I wouldn't scoff at something like that.

[a700hitter]

Not overpaying is the difference between Boston's 2 world series titles this decade, to New York's none. I wouldn't scoff at something like that.
The difference was that the Red Sox had the better players. It doesn't matter how you get them, just that you get them.

[BSN07]

I'm sure they do care about the $8 million, but they have acted irresponsibly in the past, so why would I care if they overpaid for one more player for one stinking year? They usually overpay for 4, 5, or 6 years when they screw up. A 1 year $8 miilion hit for a SS when they spent $5.5 million on Smoltz and another $5 million on Penny? $8 million on Guzman would be a bargain compare to that.

Again, just run a worst case scenario by you. The Sox get Guzman. And some GM decides to make Hanley/Hardy/Escobar/Tulo/Andrus/ Some young talented SS, and the Sox don't get in on it because of Guzman. How would you look at the acquisition then?

I'm just trying to get you to see a few months down the road that move could look really bad.

[TedWilliams101]

Not overpaying is the difference between Boston's 2 world series titles this decade, to New York's none. I wouldn't scoff at something like that.

How is paying $8 million to fill a big hole just for the rest of this season comparable to the Yankees throwing huge money at old, broken down pitchers? I mean, isn't that what the Sox did this year, giving Smoltz and Penny more than $11 million this season (sure, not as extreme, but still damned bad)?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

How is paying $8 million to fill a big hole just for the rest of this season

He's on the books for the same amount for next season. No team is going to take on that contract. It could very well hinder our offseason moves and/or next year's trade deadline.

[TedWilliams101]

Again, just run a worst case scenario by you. The Sox get Guzman. And some GM decides to make Hanley/Hardy/Escobar/Tulo/Andrus/ Some young talented SS, and the Sox don't get in on it because of Guzman. How would you look at the acquisition then?

I'm just trying to get you to see a few months down the road that move could look really bad.

Why would Guzman get in the way of acquiring a future SS?

[BSN07]

How is paying $8 million to fill a big hole just for the rest of this season comparable to the Yankees throwing huge money at old, broken down pitchers? I mean, isn't that what the Sox did this year, giving Smoltz and Penny more than $11 million this season (sure, not as extreme, but still damned bad)?

It's not just for this season. It's for next year too. This is one of the points against a Guzman acquisition.

[TedWilliams101]

He's on the books for the same amount for next season. No team is going to take on that contract. It could very well hinder our offseason moves and/or next year's trade deadline.

$8 million is really going to hinder our offseason moves? Really?

[BSN07]

Why would Guzman get in the way of acquiring a future SS?

I'm not saying it's 100%. I'm saying "what if" he's the reason they don't get in on other SS. They might figure they are paying Guzman 8M, and give Lowrie another shot. So basically we are looking at a Lowrie/Lugo platoon to start off 2010.



Still sound good?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The difference was that the Red Sox had the better players. It doesn't matter how you get them, just that you get them.
The Red Sox got their good players and had the resources, both in money and in prospects, to go get more good players, and keep getting them. Because they don't part with huge, huge sums of money or top prospects unless they are sure that it is a good deal.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

$8 million is really going to hinder our offseason moves? Really?
Why wouldn't it? Until you've taken a good long look at the team's income statements, why scoff at the prospect of $8 million getting in the way of future moves? This isn't Monopoly money we're dealing with here.

[a700hitter]

Again, just run a worst case scenario by you. The Sox get Guzman. And some GM decides to make Hanley/Hardy/Escobar/Tulo/Andrus/ Some young talented SS, and the Sox don't get in on it because of Guzman. How would you look at the acquisition then?

I'm just trying to get you to see a few months down the road that move could look really bad.If $8 million is going to prevent the Red Sox from making a major acquisition, then the owners should just fire the entire FO, because they would be incompetent. The FO was willing to sign Teixeira to an 8 year contract when they were still obligated to Lowell for 2 more years at $14millio/year. Lowell was coming off hip surgery and he can't play any other position. That huge contract did not deter them from going after Tex, so why would a measely $8 million bring this team to its knees. I'm not buying your premise. It's faulty and the past actions of the Red Sox FO have shown that it is invalid.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox got their good players and had the resources, both in money and in prospects, to go get more good players, and keep getting them. Because they don't part with huge, huge sums of money or top prospects unless they are sure that it is a good deal.But the Yankees have the better players this season, and they went about it a different way. It doesn't matter how you get them. All that matters is that you have the better players.

[BSN07]

If $8 million is going to prevent the Red Sox from making a major acquisition, then the owners should just fire the entire FO, because they would be incompetent. The FO was willing to sign Teixeira to an 8 year contract when they were still obligated to Lowell for 2 more years at $14millio/year. Lowell was coming off hip surgery and he can't play any other position. That huge contract did not deter them from going after Tex, so why would a measely $8 million bring this team to its knees. I'm not buying your premise. It's faulty and the past actions of the Red Sox FO have shown that it is invalid.

Fine, money aside. What about Roster space? If the brought in someone, someone has to go. You think it will be easy to deal Guzman at 8M? Do you think they will give up on Lowrie?

I mean I'm not saying your wrong. I guess it's just my personal preference though. In a nutshell this is how I see it:D

Agon+Glove-Bat+FA after 09> Guzman+Bat-Glove- contract the runs through 2010

[TedWilliams101]

Here's also a food for thought, in 04, 07, and 08 (when we would have easily won the WS if we were healthy) the Sox had their 3 highest ever payrolls ($127+ million, $143+ million, and $133+ million). The Sox failed in '03 so they went out and spent money ($29 million/year) to get them the championship in 04. Same thing happened after '06 ($23 million/year). Don't tell me that simply "saving" money is what got the Sox their championships. They realized they needed to go out and spend for talent and they did.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

If $8 million is going to prevent the Red Sox from making a major acquisition, then the owners should just fire the entire FO, because they would be incompetent.

Incompetence means not spending insane sums of money like a drunken trucker at a Las Vegas casino?


The FO was willing to sign Teixeira to an 8 year contract when they were still obligated to Lowell for 2 more years at $14millio/year.

Yes, then Teixeira returned to the Yankees to see if they would up their offer, which they did. This has been covered many, many, many times - the Red Sox were not getting Teixeira. The plan, if they ultimately did somehow get Tex, was to trade Lowell, who still some had some value left at that point. He would have flipped to SF or maybe the Dodgers.


Lowell was coming off hip surgery and he can't play any other position. That huge contract did not deter them from going after Tex, so why would a measely $8 million bring this team to its knees.

Because Lowell could've and would've been dealt in that scenario. There are several NL teams that could have used a bat at little cost (in prospects, Sox probably would have eaten a bit of his contract as well).

Guzman, would be untradeable. At this point in his career, he isn't great at either side of the game (batting/fielding). He's a complete waste of money. Lowell still has a good bat. Gonzalez can still play defense. Guzman isn't great at either.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

But the Yankees have the better players this season, and they went about it a different way. It doesn't matter how you get them. All that matters is that you have the better players.
The Yankees have the better players virtually every season. And the WS scoreboard for this decade is still 2-0 Red Sox. What's your point?

[Looch Ness Monster]

For the record, his UZR/150 is 4.0

And it was 16.9 in 2006. Definitely a VERY significant difference.

[a700hitter]

Fine, money aside. What about Roster space? If the brought in someone, someone has to go. You think it will be easy to deal Guzman at 8M? Do you think they will give up on Lowrie?

I mean I'm not saying your wrong. I guess it's just my personal preference though. In a nutshell this is how I see it:D

Agon+Glove-Bat+FA after 09> Guzman+Bat-Glove- contract the runs through 2010I don't think it would be anywhere close to the problem that trading a gimpy Lowell would have been. If worse to worse, they'd carry two MIF's. Lowrie could play any IF position including first. We do have 3 first basemen currently. That's at least one too many. One has to go by next season, don't you think?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Here's also a food for thought, in 04, 07, and 08 (when we would have easily won the WS if we were healthy) the Sox had their 3 highest ever payrolls ($127+ million, $143+ million, and $133+ million). The Sox failed in '03 so they went out and spent money ($29 million/year) to get them the championship in 04. Same thing happened after '06 ($23 million/year). Don't tell me that simply "saving" money is what got the Sox their championships. They realized they needed to go out and spend for talent and they did.

Terrific. But did they overpay? In the case of 2007, Lugo did nothing for us, so the $9 million we threw at him is pretty moot since it didn't help us win.

The Red Sox would have easily won the World Series in 2005 if they actually had pitching, by the way.

[TedWilliams101]

Guzman is 31 years old and is an above average offensive SS who has been especially good the last 3 seasons. How is that untradeable? Yes, we might have had to eat a bit of his contract, but that is still better than Gonzalez.

Also, Guzman isn't the only guy we could have had instead of Gonzalez. He certainly isn't my favorite target.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Question: How many players not on the roster's contracts are we currently eating right now? It seems like too many.

[a700hitter]

The Yankees have the better players virtually every season. And the WS scoreboard for this decade is still 2-0 Red Sox. What's your point?No they have not. The Yankee teams in 2004 and 2007 in particular were not better than the Red Sox. The Red Sox clearly had the better players those years. The Yankee starting pitching in 2004 was truly a patchwork of mediocre and over the hill players. The 2007 Yankee pitching was so poor that it had to lure Clemens from retirement. My point stands. The team with the better players usually is better over the 162 game schedule and they have a big advantage in the playoffs. It doesn't matter how you acquire those players.

[TedWilliams101]

The Yankees have the better players virtually every season. And the WS scoreboard for this decade is still 2-0 Red Sox. What's your point?

To be fair, the Yankees have still dominated in the regular season, they have just come up on the wrong side during the playoffs. I'm not sure if you knew this, but luck plays a HUGE part in short baseball series. Their payroll wasn't the problem, it was that their pitching just wasn't quite good enough. Looks like they have fixed that.

[schillingouttheks]

It's not a question of overpaying. It's a question of what you overpay for. The Yankees made a habit throughout the earlier years of this decade up until last season to overpay for old, established veteran players who were on the downside of their careers. Obviously there's an exception here or there, but think about Jason Giambi, Johnny Damon, Gary Sheffield, Kevin Brown, etc. Those are why the Yankees had such a high payroll but nothing to show for it.

On the other hand, this past off-season the Yankees overpaid for exactly the types of pieces you overpay for. Mark Teixeira is a young talent in the earlier years of his prime and puts up tremendous numbers. CC Sabathia still has years left that will keep him at the top of that rotation. Burnett doesn't exactly fall into the worthy category of being overpaid, but if he had stayed healthy throughout his career with his potential to be absolutely dominant, one could say it's worth it.

It's not the money that the team spends. It's the quality of the player they spend it on. They spent the money on pieces that would only cause logjams and long-term commitments in the past. Now, with a signing of a Mark Teixeira, overpaying is acceptable and the long-term bind they have to him is not a problem. This off-season they spent their money on the correct players.

[a700hitter]

Incompetence means not spending insane sums of money like a drunken trucker at a Las Vegas casino?No, but they would be incompetent if they had squandered so much of the team's resources that an $8 million write down would prevent them from doing future deals.



Yes, then Teixeira returned to the Yankees to see if they would up their offer, which they did. This has been covered many, many, many times - the Red Sox were not getting Teixeira. The plan, if they ultimately did somehow get Tex, was to trade Lowell, who still some had some value left at that point. He would have flipped to SF or maybe the Dodgers.How much trade value did he have left at $28 million/2yrs when he couldn't jog before march and he has looked like a wounded animal all season? I think it would be easier to move Guzman at $8 million for 1 year. The point is not whether they got or could get Teixeira. You are missing the boat with that argument. The point is thta Lowell's huge albatross of a contract did not prevent the FO from looking to make a big acquisition that would have put Lowell on the bench.

[TedWilliams101]

Not just that, but they were fine with just eating Lowell's contract if necessary since they pursued Adrian Gonzalez. They have the money, it's just a matter of whether or not they want to spend it.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Guzman is 31 years old and is an above average offensive SS who has been especially good the last 3 seasons. How is that untradeable?

He hasn't OPS'd .800 in either of the past two seasons, and his OBP is merely average. All well and good, but not worth his contract.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

No, but they would be incompetent if they had squandered so much of the team's resources that an $8 million write down would prevent them from doing future deals.

Is that right? Is it impossible that JWH, the guy who signs the checks, is feeling the crunch financially? The economy does suck lately, and he has been forced to eat his share of blown money.

Word of advice, don't criticize the team not breaking the bank for Player X unless you have inside knowledge of their financial state.


How much trade value did he have left at $28 million/2yrs when he couldn't jog before march and he has looked like a wounded animal all season?

For a team like the Giants, who have always been a team with good pitching that just needs a bat, Lowell would have been a good fit. The Red Sox would have asked for anything useful in return.

Why does it matter how Lowell's looked this season? His 2009 performance is moot in this discussion.


I think it would be easier to move Guzman at $8 million for 1 year.

Guzman isn't Lowell in that there is nothing exciting about his offense or defense. Lowell's defense would have been a question mark to whoever acquired him, but his bat isn't a mystery. Anybody that would take Guzman off our hands would only be doing so as a stopgap for another MiLB shortstop they hope to take over the job in another year.


The point is thta Lowell's huge albatross of a contract did not prevent the FO from looking to make a big acquisition that would have put Lowell on the bench.

No, it would have put him in another uniform.

[TedWilliams101]

He hasn't OPS'd .800 in either of the past two seasons, and his OBP is merely average. All well and good, but not worth his contract.

He is a SS. Very few SS OPS above .800. The only guys who do are either completely untouchable (Hanley, etc) or old (Tejada, etc). I'm sure there would be interest next year in a 32 year old SS who can hit above .300, can put up a mid-700 OPS, and is slightly below-average fielder.

[TedWilliams101]

Is that right? Is it impossible that JWH, the guy who signs the checks, is feeling the crunch financially? The economy does suck lately, and he has been forced to eat his share of blown money.

Word of advice, don't criticize the team not breaking the bank for Player X unless you have inside knowledge of their financial state.

Last time I checked, Fenway Park is still selling out every game and the Ticket Prices haven't gone down...

[a700hitter]

Is that right? Is it impossible that JWH, the guy who signs the checks, is feeling the crunch financially? The economy does suck lately, and he has been forced to eat his share of blown money.

Word of advice, don't criticize the team not breaking the bank for Player X unless you have inside knowledge of their financial state.The ballpark has sold outagain this season as did Spring Training, so I don't know where the bad economy would have hit the Red Sox. if it had any effect, it would have been to a much less extent than it has hit other teams.


For a team like the Giants, who have always been a team with good pitching that just needs a bat, Lowell would have been a good fit. The Red Sox would have asked for anything useful in return.

Why does it matter how Lowell's looked this season? His 2009 performance is moot in this discussion.No team was going to take him without seeing if he had recovered from the surgery, so they wouldn't have been able to move him before late in Spring Training and he looked awful at that juncture. No team was going to give up anything for him or pay any of his salary. The Sox would have been forced to DFA him, and they were willing to take that risk, because they wanted Teixeira.


Guzman isn't Lowell in that there is nothing exciting about his offense or defense. Lowell's defense would have been a question mark to whoever acquired him, but his bat isn't a mystery. Anybody that would take Guzman off our hands would only be doing so as a stopgap for another MiLB shortstop they hope to take over the job in another year.He has two advantages as trade bait over Lowell (at the beginning of '09). The financial commitment is less than 1/3rd of the amount and Guzman is healthy.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Last time I checked, Fenway Park is still selling out every game and the Ticket Prices haven't gone down...
And?


Are those the team's only resources?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

He is a SS. Very few SS OPS above .800. The only guys who do are either completely untouchable (Hanley, etc) or old (Tejada, etc). I'm sure there would be interest next year in a 32 year old SS who can hit above .300, can put up a mid-700 OPS, and is slightly below-average fielder.
Sure, if the Sox eat his contract.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The ballpark has sold outagain this season as did Spring Training, so I don't know where the bad economy would have hit the Red Sox. if it had any effect, it would have been to a much less extent than it has hit other teams.

Outside resources, maybe? JWH is an investor.



No team was going to take him without seeing if he had recovered from the surgery, so they wouldn't have been able to move him before late in Spring Training and he looked awful at that juncture. No team was going to give up anything for him or pay any of his salary. The Sox would have been forced to DFA him, and they were willing to take that risk, because they wanted Teixeira.


Conjecture.


He has two advantages as trade bait over Lowell (at the beginning of '09). The financial commitment is less than 1/3rd of the amount and Guzman is healthy.

Missing the point. Guzman is hardly rock-solid on both sides of the ball.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Jacoby_Ellsbury has 30 posts in this thread defending Gonzalez. No need. He's going to be a bench player for us.

[a700hitter]

Outside resources, maybe? JWH is an investor.That wouldn't have an effect on the finances of the Red Sox. It's a separate financial and legal entity. As for his private investing, Henry was a market maker. he wasn't the kind of investor that got caught with his pants down. As a hedge fund guy, he profited from up markets and down markets.


Conjecture.I've got you by the balls now.:D

[a700hitter]

I really don't understand how they picked up a guy worse than Green. He has less range and a weaker arm and he is worse offensively too. Bargain baement move all the way.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/is_gonzalez_an.html

[Dipre]

I really don't understand how they picked up a guy worse than Green. He has less range and a weaker arm and he is worse offensively too. Bargain baement move all the way.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/is_gonzalez_an.html


Kilgore's an idiot.

Gonzales is a huge defensive upgrade over Green there's no if or but about it.

But of course, we all know he's an automatic out.

[italstallianion]

Kilgore's an idiot.

Gonzales is a huge defensive upgrade over Green there's no if or but about it.

But of course, we all know he's an automatic out.



As long as he's an automatic out on defense as well then I'm fine with it. ;)

[ORS]

Again, just run a worst case scenario by you. The Sox get Guzman. And some GM decides to make Hanley/Hardy/Escobar/Tulo/Andrus/ Some young talented SS, and the Sox don't get in on it because of Guzman. How would you look at the acquisition then?

I'm just trying to get you to see a few months down the road that move could look really bad.
Or even worse, just imagine if the sun went supernova, and the Sox had SS that they really didn't want when the apocalypse occurred.

Jesus Fucking Christ, really? This is your argument? Don't do this now because some hypothetical pipe dream might occur and you'd miss out.

I don't disagree that Guzman was not a desirable option, but this is the mother of all bad justifications.

[Dojji]

Are we really having this great big argument over whether we should have acquired Cristian Guzman?

Even though the Nationals said point blank that if the Sox had claimed him they'd have pulled him off waivers?

Talk about desperate.

Look, in the offseason we'll ship some prospects either to Florida for Hanley, or more realistically probably to Texas for Young, or Cleveland for Peralta, both of which are vastly superior options to Guzman.

Failing that, if both teams should for some incredible reason not be interested in trading an expensive and expendable shortstop, we can make a pickup on J. J. Hardy, who has a fair change to regain his stroke at Fenway. He's a dead pull RHH hitter, only 4 hits all year to right field. A similar arrangement worked wonders for Mike Lowell and his similar pull tendencies.

[SoxSport]

The way the fans support this team, they deserve more than what they have been getting lately. I'm disturbed that the best lineup isn't out there every game right now. If they don't make the playoffs, there might be some hell to pay.

[a700hitter]

The way the fans support this team, they deserve more than what they have been getting lately. I'm disturbed that the best lineup isn't out there every game right now. If they don't make the playoffs, there might be some hell to pay.There should be. A whole season of Nick Green at SS is disgraceful for a team like the Red Sox.

[Dojji]

No matter how great the fans are the team is still vulnerable to baseball entropy.

Green was not our first choice for a shortstop. He wasn't even our second choice. If we'd had anything resembling good fortune this year our shortstop would have been Jed Lowrie, with Lugo as a fallback. Both of those options being ridiculously bad, hurt, or both, Green has seen a lot more time than he ever should have. This was NEVER intended.

At some point you really do have to ask the question of how far you go to save a season that's already headed down the flusher, when you could make much saner moves if you punt or semi-punt and wait until the offseason.

[example1]

At some point you really do have to ask the question of how far you go to save a season that's already headed down the flusher, when you could make much saner moves if you punt or semi-punt and wait until the offseason.

At some point, for sure. When they get Alex Gonzalez for virtually nothing to fill a hole? No, not then.

Making the playoffs is not headed down the flusher. The great thing about this FO is that they aren't going to mortgage the future to make a run this year. They plan on always being competitive, not just to win this year and then sell the team short in the future. That seems obvious.

[SCM33]

At some point, for sure. When they get Alex Gonzalez for virtually nothing to fill a hole? No, not then.

Making the playoffs is not headed down the flusher. The great thing about this FO is that they aren't going to mortgage the future to make a run this year. They plan on always being competitive, not just to win this year and then sell the team short in the future. That seems obvious.

The thing that bothers me, is that for the most part, Theo keeps making moves at the position that make no sense. One year its offense, then defense.

In fact, we went from AGON, to Lugo for his bat, now we are right back with AGON, the moves are really just lateral, you can argue up and down about what this person does, or that person......but none of them are significantly better than the other. Its frustrating.

[TheKilo]

In a nutshell, here's the thing: our lineup, when everyone's producing up to par, is good enough to where we can install some Glovey McNoodlebat in the 9 spot and not really feel the effects. If it gets to the point where our other hitters are all shitting the bed at once and we need the SS to produce at the plate, we're not winning anything anyway.

Gonzalez is a proficient defender and a crap hitter. I can live with that.

My oh my, how our standards have decreased.

This is a terrible move for the Red Sox. Atrocious. Gonzalez is not a good defensive SS anymore. He had shitty range in 2006. He's had knee and elbow injuries since then.

Fucking awful, indefensible move. I'd rather call Navarro up.

[italstallianion]

I heard Buster Olney say that the Reds are eating some of the remaining salary. So by giving up Negron we aren't giving up as much money as I thought. While that's logical and somewhat obvious, it's still worth nothing nonetheless.

If I heard correctly, the Reds were eating $1.2 million.

[Dojji]

Still don't like this deal. I don't think Guzman was one of them, but I think there are better moves we could make even now.

There just isn't any upside on Gonzalez. He is what he is, and it isn't going to get better. All else failing I'd rather go for a guy who has the ability to improve a little. That almost makes Green a better candidate, since at least he's shown some progress in flashes here and there.

[TheKilo]

Fun fact - the three shortstop options since Lowrie went down (Green, Woodward, Gonzalez) combined for exactly 0 major league games in 2008.

Theo should be embarrassed.

[Dojji]

I dunno why Theo should be embarrassed to run into such bad luck that we're working on our 6th shortstop this year.

[SCM33]

Fun fact - the three shortstop options since Lowrie went down (Green, Woodward, Gonzalez) combined for exactly 0 major league games in 2008.

Theo should be embarrassed.

I just dont understand what he is trying to do. What does he want? Offense? Defense? I just dont get it. Why cant he find a player to play SS? Why is it a merry-go-round?

The guy he got rid of, Lugo....was the best option out of all of them, and we couldnt stand the guy......my head is going to explode, I just dont get what he is trying to accomplish, since getting a good SS isnt it.

[SCM33]

I dunno why Theo should be embarrassed to run into such bad luck that we're working on our 6th shortstop this year.

This year?

This has been on going for 5 years.

[Dojji]

There's times when it's just that nothing works.

Lugo hit, but he was pathetically bad on D and can't stay healthy.

Lowrie defended OK, but didn't hit and can't stay healthy.

Green stays healthy, but he's not a fantastic defensive shortstop and his bat is Orlando Cabrera bad.

Woodward and Gonzalez are clearly not big league shortstops at this time, but when you get this far down in your depth in ANY position on ANY team you're going to find suck.

[TheKilo]

I dunno why Theo should be embarrassed to run into such bad luck that we're working on our 6th shortstop this year.

$100 million payroll and he is using Nick Green, Chris Woodward, and now Alex Gonzalez in crucial games in August.

Embarrassing. Should have just kept Lugo.

[Dojji]

This year?

This has been on going for 5 years.

It really hasn't been this bad most years. Usually we have a guy who gets the job done for most of the year. We never really found that guy this season.

[Dojji]

$100 million payroll and he is using Nick Green, Chris Woodward, and now Alex Gonzalez in crucial games in August.

Embarrassing. Should have just kept Lugo.


Lugo cannot play the position defensively. I don't care how bad Green is, Lugo's worse.

A good shortstop is one of the hardest things to find, no matter how big your payroll is. If there's a player who's likely to never hit free agency it's any kind of really good shortstop.

[jsc1973]

I heard Buster Olney say that the Reds are eating some of the remaining salary. So by giving up Negron we aren't giving up as much money as I thought. While that's logical and somewhat obvious, it's still worth nothing nonetheless.

If I heard correctly, the Reds were eating $1.2 million.

The Reds are eating $1.1 million of the $1.53 million he's still due for this season. So we're basically renting him for about $425,000. He has a $6M option for 2010, and a $500,000 buyout if the club declines.

If Theo thinks he can find a long-term solution, he can just pay the buyout, or if there's nothing out there, then he has the option to keep Gonzalez for one more season. There are worse shortstops out there. We know, we've had our share of them this year.

I'm just glad we're going into the stretch run with at least one legitimate major-league shortstop on the roster. He can't hit anymore, not that he ever really could, but at least he won't kick away a run or two every other game.

[SCM33]

It really hasn't been this bad most years. Usually we have a guy who gets the job done for most of the year. We never really found that guy this season.

But thats the thing. In Theos eyes, our SS's are never getting it done, which is why he is always replacing them. I just want them to find one, even if he sucks.....I dont care......find a SS and stick to it. Stop with the lateral to < than value of the quality you already have. If you have a player, and he sucks........keep him, because the next move he makes at SS is always worse.

Lugo> Lowrie > Green> Woodward > A Gonzalez.

In fact, I take back my statement, he isnt making lateral moves, hes making worse ones.

[ORS]

Calling SS anything other than a complete disappointment since 2004 is an outright lie. Renteria was supposed to be an upgrade over OCab. He was marginally better with the bat, but sucked like Elton John aboard the USS Enterprise in the field. Alex Gonzalez was supposed to improve the position in the field, and he did, but his bat was so limp it needed Viagra. Lugo was supposed to come in a do both, to be a weapon like he was in TB. Disappointment. Lowrie was supposed to translate his success in the minors at the major league level. He hasn't because he can't stay healthy, which is, again, disappointing. Now we are stuck with Nick Green, a career AAAA player who is doing his best lately to normalize the numbers from his decent start, and a slow, worse in the field, and worse hitting Alex Gonzalez.........disappointing.

[Dojji]

You're blaming Theo for the fact that we've had to replace Lowrie for most of the world.

If Lowrie was actually available, none of the later moves would have been made.

THESE. ARE. REPLACEMENT. PLAYERS. These are NOT guys Theo WANTS to bring in, these are guys he HAS to bring in to keep warm bodies at the shortstop position until Plan A (Lowrie) gets healthy.

[SCM33]

Lugo cannot play the position defensively. I don't care how bad Green is, Lugo's worse.

A good shortstop is one of the hardest things to find, no matter how big your payroll is. If there's a player who's likely to never hit free agency it's any kind of really good shortstop.

Green is a pretty horrible SS. And he cant hit worth shit.

Lugo could at least hit a little. Green is an atrocious offensive baseball player. Both are pretty horrible with the leather.

[SCM33]

You're blaming Theo for the fact that we've had to replace Lowrie for most of the world.

If Lowrie was actually available, none of the later moves would have been made.

THESE. ARE. REPLACEMENT. PLAYERS. These are NOT guys Theo WANTS to bring in, these are guys he HAS to bring in to keep warm bodies at the shortstop position until Plan A (Lowrie) gets healthy.

Lowrie sucks too. You honestly think he was the answer? I thought he did a nice job last year, but he is not the answer to the problem. He was an average AAA player. He came up and we caught lightning in a bottle. Jed Lowrie should not be the starting SS for the RedSox. The original plan was a bad one, and all the backup plans in response to the original bad plan have been disastrous.

[a700hitter]

You're blaming Theo for the fact that we've had to replace Lowrie for most of the world.

If Lowrie was actually available, none of the later moves would have been made.

THESE. ARE. REPLACEMENT. PLAYERS. These are NOT guys Theo WANTS to bring in, these are guys he HAS to bring in to keep warm bodies at the shortstop position until Plan A (Lowrie) gets healthy.This kid's situation with his wrist and now forearm tingling is troubling. There is no guarantee that this doesn't hamper or cut short his career. Theo can't rely on him as the starter going forward. it would be a big step for the kid if he could handle the utility job for the entire season without going down with an injury.

[Dojji]

Green is a pretty horrible SS. And he cant hit worth shit.

Lugo could at least hit a little. Green is an atrocious offensive baseball player. Both are pretty horrible with the leather.

Nick Green OPS .679
Julio Lugo OPS w/ Boston .719



Lugo .928 FPCT(which is horrid!)
Green .955 FPCT(still not very good, but better)

League average is .973

Lugo 3.70 RF at SS
Green 4.27 RF at SS

League average is 4.39

Green was below average in all categories. Lugo is far, far worse and absolutely unacceptable. Green has bad range, but it's an open question whether Lugo actually moved on any given grounder.

I just don't see how we can tolerate the absolute horrid wretched total complete blinding FAIL that was Lugo's defense for another .040 of OPS.

[ORS]

Lowrie sucks too. You honestly think he was the answer? I thought he did a nice job last year, but he is not the answer to the problem. He was an average AAA player. He came up and we caught lightning in a bottle. Jed Lowrie should not be the starting SS for the RedSox. The original plan was a bad one, and all the backup plans in response to the original bad plan have been disastrous.
This is where I think you are going overboard. In approx 350 AB's from the end of '07 to the beginning of '08 Lowrie put up an .830-ish OPS. This is not average in AAA. Then he came up and played through a hurt wrist. That wrist continued to bother him this year. You haven't seen him healthy for an appreciable period of time in Boston.

That said, the fact that he can't get and stay healthy is a bit alarming. He needs to get fixed and probably spend a year in AAA getting a feel for his repaired wrist.

[SCM33]

Nick Green OPS .679
Julio Lugo OPS w/ Boston .719



Lugo .928 FPCT(which is horrid!)
Green .955 FPCT(still not very good, but better)

League average is .973

Lugo 3.70 RF at SS
Green 4.27 RF at SS

League average is 4.39

Green was below average in all categories. Lugo is far, far worse and absolutely unacceptable.

I just don't see how we can tolerate the absolute horrid wretched total complete blinding FAIL that was Lugo's defense for another .040 of OPS.

You are cherry picking stats.

Lugo has done very well for STL, you cannot assume he wouldnt have hit the same way with us.

Look, this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones shitty stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

[SCM33]

This is where I think you are going overboard. In approx 350 AB's from the end of '07 to the beginning of '08 Lowrie put up an .830-ish OPS. This is not average in AAA. Then he came up and played through a hurt wrist. That wrist continued to bother him this year. You haven't seen him healthy for an appreciable period of time in Boston.

That said, the fact that he can't get and stay healthy is a bit alarming. He needs to get fixed and probably spend a year in AAA getting a feel for his repaired wrist.

You are prob right, I am just frustrated we cant find 1 player to call Shortstop for more than 1.5 years.

[Dojji]

Lowrie sucks too. You honestly think he was the answer? I thought he did a nice job last year, but he is not the answer to the problem. He was an average AAA player. He came up and we caught lightning in a bottle. Jed Lowrie should not be the starting SS for the RedSox. The original plan was a bad one, and all the backup plans in response to the original bad plan have been disastrous.

Now you're just panicking. there was no way of knowing this would happen to Lowrie at the start of the year. By the time we really realized we'd have to do something at that position all the decent options were on winning teams. The only guy I can see us going for at the deadline that we didn't is Jhonny Peralta.

Nick Green is the sort of guy a team should have in the minors if it needs to rely on a replacement level SS, which is exactly what he was brought in to be. Theo was smart to sign him, because when every possible best laid scheme went south, at least Green was there to give us a replacement level alternative. He should never have been the starting SS, but I'm struggling to figure out exactly how we either could have predicted what'd happen at SS this year or what we should have done about it in midseason that we didn't.

[SCM33]

Now you're just panicking. there was no way of knowing this would happen to Lowrie at the start of the year. By the time we really realized we'd have to do something at that position all the decent options were on winning teams. The only guy I can see us going for at the deadline that we didn't is Jhonny Peralta.

Nick Green is the sort of guy a team should have in the minors if it needs to rely on a replacement level SS, which is exactly what he was brought in to be. Theo was smart to sign him, because when every possible best laid scheme went south, at least Green was there to give us a replacement level alternative. He should never have been the starting SS, but I'm struggling to figure out exactly how we either could have predicted what'd happen at SS this year or what we should have done about it in midseason that we didn't.

No, i just responded to ORS the same way I will respond to you. I just find it very frustrating that we cannot just settle down with one SS. The injury is not his fault obviously, but its just another chapter of a shitstorm that is the Boston Red Sox Shortstop.

EDIT: Green was brought in to be a AAA roster filler. The utility inf on the big league roster is your backup SS, which is why Green didnt play a game in MLB in 2008.

[Dojji]

You are cherry picking stats.

Lugo has done very well for STL, you cannot assume he wouldnt have hit the same way with us.

Look, this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones shitty stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

You accuse me of cherry picking stats and then you want to praise Lugo for a 10 game sample? If you combine his games with St. Louis with the Boston sample you still get a result that's FAR below average.

[SCM33]

You accuse me of cherry picking stats and then you want to praise Lugo for a 10 game sample? If you combine his games with St. Louis with the Boston sample you still get a result that's FAR below average.

Again.....this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones shitty stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

[Dojji]

No, i just responded to ORS the same way I will respond to you. I just find it very frustrating that we cannot just settle down with one SS. The injury is not his fault obviously, but its just another chapter of a shitstorm that is the Boston Red Sox Shortstop.

EDIT: Green was brought in to be a AAA roster filler. The utility inf on the big league roster is your backup SS, which is why Green didnt play a game in MLB in 2008.

So do I, but you have yet to tell me which of the available options at SS we should have settled down with.

Theo isn't cycling through shortstops for the heck of it. Lugo's gone for a reason, he sucked. believe me, if there was any reason to believe Lugo would bounce back to average Theo wouldn't have ate the contract and shipped him out of town. Lowrie's hurt. None of the others are better than Nick Green. I don't see what Theo is supposed to be doing here that he hasn't done.

You want to express a general frustration with the fact that we tend to change shortstops in midstream? Fine. But at least this year, with the pieces he had to work with, I can't honestly see what Theo should have done differently.

[example1]

The SS represents the worst case scenario for this team.

I actually don't see the attempted solutions as the problem, rather the longterm approach is the problem. Is anyone here actually concerned about Gonzalez's ability to turn routine double plays, groundballs, etc., into outs? I'm not. I realize his range is poor and his bat sucks, but at least we know he'll make the routine plays.

The bigger problem that this highlights is the longterm lack of a solid SS plan. Lowrie was the closest thing to the organizational philosophy paying off at that position, but unlike Pedroia in 2007 the injuries have killed his ability to get comfortable.

Personally, I thought Renteria was a good signing, until he sucked. Lugo was a more suspicious signing to me, and proved to be just that.

There aren't easy answers for this season. Alex Gonzalez isn't it. He's not even a step in the right direction. His acquisition should be pretty clear indication of the type of talent available at this point in the season.

Few people around here were excited about Julio Lugo or Jack Wilson or Christian Guzman. Or Orlando Cabrera or most of the other names discussed here. There were no good answers, as far as I can see.

[Dojji]

Again.....this argument is not about Green, or Lugo in comparison. The argument is about the horrible, horrible job Theo has done with the SS position throughout the years. Just because ones shitty stats are better than anothers doesnt mean that one is the better option. They are both bad options as Theo has absolutely botched every move he has made in the SS position since 2004 offseason on.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Theo's Plan A shortstop for these years turned into Beckett because Luccino made a trade behind his back. No regrets there IMHO, but the opportunity to snag a Class A shortstop that would solidify the position for multiple seasons really hasn't come up.

It's not really that much different from cycling through Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, John Olderdude, Kevin Millar, Roberto Petagine, and JT Snow before Kevin Youkilis emerged at first base -- or going through Bellhorn, Reese, Graffanino, Cora and Loretta before settling on Pedroia. It's just how you deal with having a hole at a certain position.

[Dojji]

Few people around here were excited about Julio Lugo or Jack Wilson or Christian Guzman. Or Orlando Cabrera or most of the other names discussed here. There were no good answers, as far as I can see.

I only saw one guy that we even potentially could have gotten who would represent enough of a sure thing that we should deal anything of consequence for him -- Jhonny Peralta. And we have no idea if the Indians have any intention of listening to offers for him.

[a700hitter]

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Theo's Plan A shortstop for these years turned into Beckett because Luccino made a trade behind his back. No regrets there IMHO, but the opportunity to snag a Class A shortstop that would solidify the position for multiple seasons really hasn't come up.

It's not really that much different from cycling through Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, John Olderdude, Kevin Millar, Roberto Petagine, and JT Snow before Kevin Youkilis emerged at first base -- or going through Walker, Bellhorn, Reese, Graffanino, Cora and Loretta before settling on Pedroia. It's just how you deal with having a hole at a certain position.Uh oh, he's demanding that we name names. Who the fuck knows, but digest this one. The Red Sox are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball but yet their record at SS (the most important position other than pitcher) is probably worse than any other organization for the last 5 years. Someone is doing something wrong.

[example1]

The hope is that between Iglesias, Kelly and Renfroe the Sox can develop a longterm SS who they can "set and forget".

[SCM33]

My frustration isnt based solely on this season.

I didnt want to see Ocab go, but obv he had to with the whole Keith Foulke thing. Fine

I didnt want Hanley Ramirez to get traded, but understood what the trade brought us back (WS title)

I was excited when they got Renteria. I didnt want to see Renteria go. He was horrible defensively, but he was still useful offensively, and I really thought his defense was an aberration.

I didnt want to see Gonzalez go. Best ive ever seen with the glove, obviously hes aged. He was bad offensively, but not to the levels of this season although his OB numbers were atrocious. He did hit 9 HR and have 50 RBIS, while not the most telling offensive stats when you look at his OB production numbers, but we knew what we were getting, so I think he outperformed expectations.

I was pissed off when they got Lugo, I never liked him, and Im pissed off they got rid of him.

Lowrie was a nice surprise last year, but ill give him the benefit of doubt and say injuries have robbed him off anything he was capable of doing.

The Woodward deal was reactionary to Lowrie getting DL'd, Gonzalez was reactionary to Lowrie as well as looked at as an improvement to Woodward.

Its just a whole frustrating series of events.

[Dojji]

Uh oh, he's demanding that we name names. Who the fuck knows, but digest this one. The Red Sox are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball but yet their record at SS (the most important position other than pitcher) is probably worse than any other organization for the last 5 years. Someone is doing something wrong.

That's because at this point naming names is crucial. The grass is always greener in someone else's pasture after all, much less how green it is in a speculative pasture you don't even need to explicitly identify. Until you get specific you're just speaking from your posterior orifice.

It's easy to say Theo did a terrible job acquiring SS talent until you start to name who else he should have gotten. Who was available and who wasn't is a critical part of the discussion right now, especially since the free agent market has been very dry on shortstops for years with most of the good ones being locked up by their teams and thus unattainable. .

I don't care how big the budget is, holes are going to crop up on any roster especially if the presumptive starter spends the bulk of the season out with this or that injury. Money doesn't even count for anything unless it's spent well, or haven't you watched the Mets recently? The fact is that since Renteria at least there really hasn't been that guy out on the free agent market that is definitely worth spending money ON. Since then among the better free agent shortstops have been Rafael Furcal and his bad back, David Eckstein twice, Khalil Green, Edgar Renteria again, of course Lugo, and a badly dimished offensive version of Orlando Cabrera

In short there hasn't been anyone out there that I'd bat higher than 9th. I don't believe in blowing good money on #9 hitters.

You'll have to do better than "we're the richest team we can do anything!!!!" in order to convince me some kind of magical super shortstop X was out there that we should have stuck with for these years. You think we should have done what? Sign Rafael Furcal? Are you one of the Orlando Cabrera mouthbreathers? what should we have done that we didn't do?

[Dojji]

My frustration isnt based solely on this season.

I didnt want to see Ocab go, but obv he had to with the whole Keith Foulke thing. Fine

I didnt want Hanley Ramirez to get traded, but understood what the trade brought us back (WS title)

I was excited when they got Renteria. I didnt want to see Renteria go. He was horrible defensively, but he was still useful offensively, and I really thought his defense was an aberration.

I didnt want to see Gonzalez go. Best ive ever seen with the glove, obviously hes aged. He was bad offensively, but not to the levels of this season although his OB numbers were atrocious. He did hit 9 HR and have 50 RBIS, while not the most telling offensive stats when you look at his OB production numbers, but we knew what we were getting, so I think he outperformed expectations.

I was pissed off when they got Lugo, I never liked him, and Im pissed off they got rid of him.

Lowrie was a nice surprise last year, but ill give him the benefit of doubt and say injuries have robbed him off anything he was capable of doing.

The Woodward deal was reactionary to Lowrie getting DL'd, Gonzalez was reactionary to Lowrie as well as looked at as an improvement to Woodward.

Its just a whole frustrating series of events.


So in other words, you're just generally grumpy about the course of the team and the troubles shortstop is just an excuse to rant.

Fine, I can deal with that, but don't go pretending it's something else.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

My oh my, how our standards have decreased.

This is a terrible move for the Red Sox. Atrocious. Gonzalez is not a good defensive SS anymore. He had shitty range in 2006. He's had knee and elbow injuries since then.

Fucking awful, indefensible move. I'd rather call Navarro up.
How is it awful and indefensible? Virtually nothing was sacrificed to get him. Cincinnati is eating a portion of his contract. We gave up a nothing minor leaguer. I'm sure if Lowrie's injury troubles were as daunting before the deadline as they are now, Theo would have taken measures to acquire something other than a non-longterm solution at the position.

I prefer Gonzalez to Chris Woodward, definitely.

[The_Destroyah]

How is it awful and indefensible? Virtually nothing was sacrificed to get him. Cincinnati is eating a portion of his contract. We gave up a nothing minor leaguer. I'm sure if Lowrie's injury troubles were as daunting before the deadline as they are now, Theo would have taken measures to acquire something other than a non-longterm solution at the position.

I prefer Gonzalez to Chris Woodward, definitely.

this. how is getting someone better than we have for nothing a bad move?

[SCM33]

So in other words, you're just generally grumpy about the course of the team and the troubles shortstop is just an excuse to rant.

Fine, I can deal with that, but don't go pretending it's something else.

No, im frustrated with the SS ordeal. Nothing more. Dont put words in my mouth.

[Dojji]

We're all frustrated with the SS ordeal, Theo probably more than any of us. No one likes churning replacement level players through a team when they're trying to win it all.

Bearing in mind that Theo nearly resigned over the trading away of Hanley Ramirez, are you guys ever going to suggest ANYONE who would actually have solved the problem well enough that Theo's actually culpable for this mess? or are you just going to grouse?

[Dipre]

I only saw one guy that we even potentially could have gotten who would represent enough of a sure thing that we should deal anything of consequence for him -- Jhonny Peralta. And we have no idea if the Indians have any intention of listening to offers for him.

Johnny Peralta's a streaky hitter, an awful fielder, and a drama queen.

[Dojji]

Johnny Peralta's a streaky hitter, an awful fielder, and a drama queen.

And he's still the best candidate we could really have acquired to this point.

[Dipre]

And he's still the best candidate we could really have acquired to this point.

Tells you a lot about the available SS and why it was better to just go get a stopgap.

[TheKilo]

How is it awful and indefensible? Virtually nothing was sacrificed to get him. Cincinnati is eating a portion of his contract. We gave up a nothing minor leaguer. I'm sure if Lowrie's injury troubles were as daunting before the deadline as they are now, Theo would have taken measures to acquire something other than a non-longterm solution at the position.

I prefer Gonzalez to Chris Woodward, definitely.

He's not better than Nick Green, he's not better than Jed Lowrie, who by all accounts will be back in a few weeks.

Anyone calling this an upgrade is fooling themselves, he sucked in 2006. He has a .258 OBP this season.

Theo should be embarrassed.

Anyone advocating Gonzalez over Peralta is a damned fool.

[Dojji]

Tells you a lot about the available SS and why it was better to just go get a stopgap.

Kinda, yeah

[a700hitter]

We're all frustrated with the SS ordeal, Theo probably more than any of us. No one likes churning replacement level players through a team when they're trying to win it all.

Bearing in mind that Theo nearly resigned over the trading away of Hanley Ramirez, are you guys ever going to suggest ANYONE who would actually have solved the problem well enough that Theo's actually culpable for this mess? or are you just going to grouse?So, now you are defending Theo by arguing that he almost cost the Red Sox the 2007 World Champioship by opposing the Beckett trade.

As for the naming of names demand, I always find that amusing. How the hell are we supposed to know who is available. You guys ask that question like we are insiders, and you assume because you have not read that a player is available that he is not available. These assumptions are as absurd as the hypothetical trades that are posted in the offseason. Theo needed a SS and he got AGon who sucks. He should have knocked on a few more doors and made a better deal. Period. If he tried and every door was slammed in his face, he's still to blame, because he put the team in this position. He can't blame it on being blind-sided by injuries. He started the season with Lugo and Lowrie. Lugo was injured and he has been below average when healthy. Lowrie is a rookie who has never played a full major league season, not even as a bench player, and he had injury problems. The contingency plan was Nick Green? It was a piss poor plan. He gets an F for his SS planning.

[Dojji]

So, now you are defending Theo by arguing that he almost cost the Red Sox the 2007 World Champioship by opposing the Beckett trade.

You could grow 5 acres of crops on that much BS and cause a tsunami with that level of spin.


As for the naming of names demand, I always find that amusing. How the hell are we supposed to know who is available. You guys ask that question like we are insiders, and you assume because you have not read that a player is available that he is not available. These assumptions are as absurd as the hypothetical trades that are posted in the offseason.

In other words you want to blame Theo for not finding a long term solution at SS but you have not even the faintest, foggiest, remotest of ideas who he might have obtained that would have been better than the guys he DID obtain.

In other words, this falls under the "Just Grousing" category.


Theo needed a SS and he got AGon who sucks. He should have knocked on a few more doors and made a better deal. Period. If he tried and every door was slammed in his face, he's still to blame, because he put the team in this position. He can't blame it on being blind-sided by injuries. He started the season with Lugo and Lowrie. Lugo was injured and he has been below average when healthy. Lowrie is a rookie who has never played a full major league season, not even as a bench player, and he had injury problems. The contingency plan was Nick Green? It was a piss poor plan. He gets an F for his SS planning.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously unless you name, if not the one he had to get, at least a group of SS he could have gotten. I'm sure Theo agrees with you he should have gotten a better SS -- if he could actually find one that was a fit.

If you can't find a specific player he should have gone for then all you're doing is complaining for it's own sake. Which is, you know, fine, but don't expect the rest of us to take that particularly seriously.

[redsoxrules]

Gonzalez fucking sucks and he's not the defender he used to be
five fifty fucking seven OPS this year , just brilliant
I prefer to have Green in the lineup

it makes no sense that he made this move

[a700hitter]

You could grow 5 acres of crops on that much BS and cause a tsunami with that level of spin.You are the one who tried to defend Theo by pointing to the fact that he didn't want to trade Hanley Ramirez. How can you give him credit for Hanley when he didn't draft him, and we got Beckett for Hanley. It was a tooopid defense.

In other words you want to blame Theo for not finding a long term solution at SS but you have not even the faintest, foggiest, remotest of ideas who he might have obtained that would have been better than the guys he DID obtain.O'Cab slipped right through his fingers. There is one. Some people have mentioned Peralta, but I don't put much stock in what people speculate about. Neither you nor I have any idea who was available, but one thing that is universally true is that anyone is available for the right price. The Red Sox have money and they have a well-stocked farm. Theo didn't want to pay the price. Was that the right decision? I don't know and neither do you, but even if it was the right decision on July 31st, it doesn't absolve him of the F grade, because he had from October 2008 to solve the SS problem and he didn't. I guess there haven't been any SS's available in the past year. And no I'm not gonna name names.

[BoSox21]

id love to know how many people here complaining that he isnt the SS he used to be in 2006 and that he's lost a step has actually seen him play since he left Boston

[Dipre]

id love to know how many people here complaining that he isnt the SS he used to be in 2006 and that he's lost a step has actually seen him play since he left Boston

That's true.

You can try to go by metrics, but he's played so little it'd be a SSS.

[a700hitter]

id love to know how many people here complaining that he isnt the SS he used to be in 2006 and that he's lost a step has actually seen him play since he left Boston

But he couldn't hit when he was here. Should we believe that he has improved?

[Dipre]

But he couldn't hit when he was here. Should we believe that he has improved?

He's talking about defense.

[TheKilo]

id love to know how many people here complaining that he isnt the SS he used to be in 2006 and that he's lost a step has actually seen him play since he left Boston

WATCH THE GAMEEZZZZZ

[Rdsxmbnt]

Any chance we can get Lou Merloni or POKEY Reese back to play 2B?

[a700hitter]

He's talking about defense.He's going to bat too. We are replacing one black hole in the lineup for another.

[Dipre]

He's going to bat too. We are replacing one black hole in the lineup for another.

I'll take the black hole who can make plays please.


"If you were to choose between two evils, always choose the lesser one".

[TedWilliams101]

I'll take the black hole who can make plays please.


"If you were to choose between two evils, always choose the lesser one".

Problem is that if he continues to struggle at the plate anywhere near as bad as he has this season, then he isn't as valuable as Green.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

He's not better than Nick Green, he's not better than Jed Lowrie, who by all accounts will be back in a few weeks.

Overall, he's not better than Nick Green. Gonzalez can field better than Green. He wasn't acquired for his bat.

As for Lowrie, he hit the DL again shortly after coming back from a lengthy stint on there. I think Theo's concerned about how he'll hold up the rest of the way.


Anyone calling this an upgrade is fooling themselves, he sucked in 2006. He has a .258 OBP this season.

No kidding, anyone who's not up in arms about this move knows that he can't hit.


Anyone advocating Gonzalez over Peralta is a damned fool.

People were doing this?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Problem is that if he continues to struggle at the plate anywhere near as bad as he has this season, then he isn't as valuable as Green.
What part of 'he wasn't acquired for his bat' isn't sticking? He was acquired for defense. I don't think the FO cares at all what he does at the plate as long as he defends well.

[cobra24]

Man, he is still trying to defend Gonzalez? I guess we will all see how bad he is after tonights game.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Man, he is still trying to defend Gonzalez? I guess we will all see how bad he is after tonights game.
Why do I think that he'll go 0-4 and everyone will come in and say 'see? HE SUCKS!', as if I've ever denied that he's a terrible hitter?

[cobra24]

Why do I think that he'll go 0-4 and everyone will come in and say 'see? HE SUCKS!', as if I've ever denied that he's a terrible hitter?

Im not.. but i do think its pretty awesome that you have been sticking up for him for the past two days... I really hope he does well, because they are going to need it.

[italstallianion]

As long as he doesn't throw a ball into the stands then I'm cool with him.

[Gom]

I wonder, in all seriousness, if they'd DH for Gonzalez and let certain pitchers hit.

[The_Destroyah]

I wonder, in all seriousness, if they'd DH for Gonzalez and let certain pitchers hit.

I'd lobby for a Beckett PH for Gonz lol.

[example1]

O'Cab slipped right through his fingers. There is one.

You're wrong. Letting Cabrera go gave Theo draft picks that were used to get Ellsbury and Lowrie.

I think this is actually a really stupid discussion. So much second guessing and grass-is-greenering.

Giving out F grades and harsh criticism for the SS situation on a team that has won more than 95 games in 5 of the past 6 years, with 2 World Series and 2 ALCS losses seems like the ultimate in elitist fandom.

A700, you talk about your experience with this team sucking for much of your life, of the difficulties of being a Red Sox fan in the past when this team disappointed you to no end, yet here we sit, with a very good team, a very good franchise and plenty of reason for optimism, and you're talking about the SS position as if there are either obvious answers or as if the job is an easy one.

Every team has holes. Every GM has imperfections and weak spots upon examination of their past teams. The Yankees spend nearly twice as much as the Red Sox do and their bullpen has, except for Rivera, been pretty bad most years recently, their starting pitching suspect. They have had a lineup full of potential hall of famers yet they too missed the playoffs and don't have WS under their name this decade. Should we list every team and their persistent imperfections? Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, White Sox, Mariners? Are there teams you would rather be watching every day?

Yeah, it is too bad they haven't been able to find their permenant SS but to pretend that someone would be available NOW, or even in the past year or two is absurd.

You think there are lots of secret deals lying under the surface that we all would have accepted? You think Theo had access to, say, Stephen Drew or Troy Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes and didn't pull the trigger? I think he didn't pull the trigger because they are not available. I think we have seen what is available coming through BOston like a revolving door. Just like when the Yankees continue to struggle to upgrade their bullpen or starting pitching in years past, it wasn't for lack of trying, it was for lack of available talent. These GMs aren't kings sitting on their throne's able to demand talent like mutton.

You refuse to give Theo the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation. Do you actually believe that he thinks Gonz is a better SS option than Tulo or Jeter or Reyes or Hanley? Of course he knows who the better players are and of course he covets them, but not at the expense of other positions.

I would say that their success without the presence of a franchise SS indicates something important about the SS position; namely, that perhaps a patch-work approach to the shortstop position is a tenible option in the absence of that franchise player.

I say we all should just hope that the SS the Sox need comes along in the near future. Nobody here is pretending that Gonzalez is the answer. He's clearly not. He's not Theo's answer, he's just another guy to have around who can field the ball and who has played SS in the past.

I see no reason to think that if there were a better option available that Theo wouldn't have gone after him.

**Let example1 as FO dogboy posts commence**

[The_Destroyah]

You're wrong. Letting Cabrera go gave Theo draft picks that were used to get Ellsbury and Lowrie.

I think this is actually a really stupid discussion. So much second guessing and grass-is-greenering.

Giving out F grades and harsh criticism for the SS situation on a team that has won more than 95 games in 5 of the past 6 years, with 2 World Series and 2 ALCS losses seems like the ultimate in elitist fandom.

A700, you talk about your experience with this team sucking for much of your life, of the difficulties of being a Red Sox fan in the past when this team disappointed you to no end, yet here we sit, with a very good team, a very good franchise and plenty of reason for optimism, and you're talking about the SS position as if there are either obvious answers or as if the job is an easy one.

Every team has holes. Every GM has imperfections and weak spots upon examination of their past teams. The Yankees spend nearly twice as much as the Red Sox do and their bullpen has, except for Rivera, been pretty bad most years recently, their starting pitching suspect. They have had a lineup full of potential hall of famers yet they too missed the playoffs and don't have WS under their name this decade. Should we list every team and their persistent imperfections? Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, White Sox, Mariners? Are there teams you would rather be watching every day?

Yeah, it is too bad they haven't been able to find their permenant SS but to pretend that someone would be available NOW, or even in the past year or two is absurd.

You think there are lots of secret deals lying under the surface that we all would have accepted? You think Theo had access to, say, Stephen Drew or Troy Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes and didn't pull the trigger? I think he didn't pull the trigger because they are not available. I think we have seen what is available coming through BOston like a revolving door. Just like when the Yankees continue to struggle to upgrade their bullpen or starting pitching in years past, it wasn't for lack of trying, it was for lack of available talent. These GMs aren't kings sitting on their throne's able to demand talent like mutton.

You refuse to give Theo the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation. Do you actually believe that he thinks Gonz is a better SS option than Tulo or Jeter or Reyes or Hanley? Of course he knows who the better players are and of course he covets them, but not at the expense of other positions.

I would say that their success without the presence of a franchise SS indicates something important about the SS position; namely, that perhaps a patch-work approach to the shortstop position is a tenible option in the absence of that franchise player.

I say we all should just hope that the SS the Sox need comes along in the near future. Nobody here is pretending that Gonzalez is the answer. He's clearly not. He's not Theo's answer, he's just another guy to have around who can field the ball and who has played SS in the past.

I see no reason to think that if there were a better option available that Theo wouldn't have gone after him.

**Let example1 as FO dogboy posts commence**

This. very very well posted sir.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Edit: Nvm

[schillingouttheks]

Why do you think your opinion is that of God and that people honestly care about you enough for their first reaction to a bad debut to be to badger you. You're not important. At all.

Well I'm pretty sure that goes up on the board as possibly the first 3-day ban.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Well I'm pretty sure that goes up on the board as possibly the first 3-day ban.

If that's worthy of any ban then I won't be back to the site period. :dunno: If not though I'll continue posting, I like the site.

Anyways so that this doesn't digress I think Gonzalez will be a decent addition but I'm still weary of his defense and his offense doesn't really have any upside at all. There wasn't much else out there though, realistically.

[schillingouttheks]

If that's worthy of any ban then I won't be back to the site period. :dunno: If not though I'll continue posting, I like the site.

Anyways so that this doesn't digress I think Gonzalez will be a decent addition but I'm still weary of his defense and his offense doesn't really have any upside at all. There wasn't much else out there though, realistically.

I mean, we've announced about fifty million times over the past week that personal insults will not be tolerated period and that we'll be decreasing our leniency because of the shit storms that have started recently because of the types of comments that involve the one you just made. The "Rules" thread has been advertised in about every forum so that people know to change the way they post. Believe it or not, you are the first person to bait someone in that manner since these rules went into effect.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Fine, then I'll delete the post?

[schillingouttheks]

That's up to yeszir whenever he gets back. Just don't do it anymore and I'll let you know.

[Spudboy]

Wow. 232 posts on the acquisition of Gonzalez. I've read all the posts and have nothing new to add except my opinion.

Gonzalez was the best defensive SS that I ever saw play for the Sox in 40+ years of watching them play. He was a noodle bat then and from appearances is a little worse now. Everyone here is concerned that he does not have the range that he had in 2006. Maybe not. This could be attributed to the knee injury and subsequent surgery. It could be just that he is three years older. Or it could be both. Whatever. Using his latest defensive stats to make assumptions about how he will perform here now is an imprecise process at best. Most of you know that I am not convinced that UZR is a strong indicator of defensive prowess but I am not discounting the stats for that reason. I believe that his current stats (ones post-op) are too small a sample to be used exclusively to judge his current ability.
I also believe that the Sox had plenty of scouting of all available SS candidates to make an informed decision. The Sox wanted an upgrade of the left side defense and wanted to add quality defensive depth. I am hoping that they have done just that. If the other components in the offense start producing simultaneously and on a regular basis, Gonzalez's meager production will not be a big problem. Hopefully he can hit above .210! But that may not be necessary.

I really wanted O'Cab before the 07/31 deadline but accept that there are underlying reasons (that I do not understand) for his exclusion. Too bad.

Overall, this move is not going to substantially increase the Sox chances of getting to the post season.
I accept that because I don't believe that it is in the cards for the Sox to advance this year. The Sox have put a tantalizingly competitive team on the field this year. That, I believe, was the FO's objective after failing to make the necessary offensive upgrades during the past off season.

One other thing, I am disappointed that the Sox have been caught with their pants down with little OF depth. I love Rocco, but counting on him was a big mistake. Dumping Kotsay has made that abundantly clear.

Thank you for your time.

[italstallianion]

I just realized that with Lugo gone, I have no use for my "Lugo is handicapped" T-Shirt.

Oh, well. At least I still have use for my "A-rod goes limp in the playoffs" T-Shirt.

[Spudboy]

You're wrong. Letting Cabrera go gave Theo draft picks that were used to get Ellsbury and Lowrie.

I think this is actually a really stupid discussion. So much second guessing and grass-is-greenering.

Giving out F grades and harsh criticism for the SS situation on a team that has won more than 95 games in 5 of the past 6 years, with 2 World Series and 2 ALCS losses seems like the ultimate in elitist fandom.

A700, you talk about your experience with this team sucking for much of your life, of the difficulties of being a Red Sox fan in the past when this team disappointed you to no end, yet here we sit, with a very good team, a very good franchise and plenty of reason for optimism, and you're talking about the SS position as if there are either obvious answers or as if the job is an easy one.

Every team has holes. Every GM has imperfections and weak spots upon examination of their past teams. The Yankees spend nearly twice as much as the Red Sox do and their bullpen has, except for Rivera, been pretty bad most years recently, their starting pitching suspect. They have had a lineup full of potential hall of famers yet they too missed the playoffs and don't have WS under their name this decade. Should we list every team and their persistent imperfections? Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, White Sox, Mariners? Are there teams you would rather be watching every day?

Yeah, it is too bad they haven't been able to find their permenant SS but to pretend that someone would be available NOW, or even in the past year or two is absurd.

You think there are lots of secret deals lying under the surface that we all would have accepted? You think Theo had access to, say, Stephen Drew or Troy Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes and didn't pull the trigger? I think he didn't pull the trigger because they are not available. I think we have seen what is available coming through BOston like a revolving door. Just like when the Yankees continue to struggle to upgrade their bullpen or starting pitching in years past, it wasn't for lack of trying, it was for lack of available talent. These GMs aren't kings sitting on their throne's able to demand talent like mutton.

You refuse to give Theo the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation. Do you actually believe that he thinks Gonz is a better SS option than Tulo or Jeter or Reyes or Hanley? Of course he knows who the better players are and of course he covets them, but not at the expense of other positions.

I would say that their success without the presence of a franchise SS indicates something important about the SS position; namely, that perhaps a patch-work approach to the shortstop position is a tenible option in the absence of that franchise player.

I say we all should just hope that the SS the Sox need comes along in the near future. Nobody here is pretending that Gonzalez is the answer. He's clearly not. He's not Theo's answer, he's just another guy to have around who can field the ball and who has played SS in the past.

I see no reason to think that if there were a better option available that Theo wouldn't have gone after him.

**Let example1 as FO dogboy posts commence**

This is clearly the most substantive post on this thread.

Thank you, example1.

[Gom]

I was at the stadium during the Yankees series and was chatting it up with a pretty Red Sox fan [sorry, Jacko, it was a female], and she couldn't understand how the Red Sox didn't offer up Buchholz for Halliday.

I kind of agree.

I think there are always going to be two schools of thought. The one is build through prospects, the other through trades and free agency. What people are upset about is that there is a hole at SS and it hasn't been filled either way.

It's not like he hasn't tried, it just hasn't worked. The irony of it is that quite possibly the best overall shortstop in the game was traded by the Red Sox for one of the big clutch pitchers in baseball.

PA said it best:

"Being the shortstop of the Red Sox is like being one of the security officers beaming down to the planet with Captain Kirk. You’re only going to be around for so long."

Fucking priceless.

[Coco's Disciples]

^ Or the drummer of Spinal Tap.

[Spudboy]

^ Or the drummer of Spinal Tap.

I love spontaneous combustion.

By the way, my keyboard goes to eleven.:D

[Dojji]

we used to chew through infeilders on a very regular basis at just about all positions. Before Pedroia, the last time we had a franchise 2B might have been Jody Reed, the last time we had a franchise 3B? Wade Boggs. Not that we didn't have talent cycling through those positions on occasion, but that's exactly what it did -- cycle through. Come, play awhile, maybe do well, maybe bomb, and then go.

I think there are two big reasons to be upset about the whole shortstop thing. First, it's just about the last position standing as a problem. We have solutions at hand for the immediate future for all of the other infield and outfield positions, plus catcher, that are locks or near locks to produce at an acceptable, above average level

Second because this SS drought follows a period of 10 years where we got it right at shortstop. Nomar, and John Valentin before him, made SS our strongest single position through the Pedro era. So used were we to good players at SS that what we're churning through there now is shown up even worse by comparison.

I think the best attribute to display here is patience. We've solved and survived other revolving doors on this team, most notably first and second base. We can do so again.

[BSN07]

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Tell me who he should have gotten.

Theo's Plan A shortstop for these years turned into Beckett because Luccino made a trade behind his back. No regrets there IMHO, but the opportunity to snag a Class A shortstop that would solidify the position for multiple seasons really hasn't come up.

It's not really that much different from cycling through Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand, John Olderdude, Kevin Millar, Roberto Petagine, and JT Snow before Kevin Youkilis emerged at first base -- or going through Bellhorn, Reese, Graffanino, Cora and Loretta before settling on Pedroia. It's just how you deal with having a hole at a certain position.
Nice post.

Uh oh, he's demanding that we name names. Who the fuck knows, but digest this one. The Red Sox are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball but yet their record at SS (the most important position other than pitcher) is probably worse than any other organization for the last 5 years. Someone is doing something wrong.
And yet they have won the WS 2 times in said span.

My frustration isnt based solely on this season.

I didnt want to see Ocab go, but obv he had to with the whole Keith Foulke thing. Fine

I didnt want Hanley Ramirez to get traded, but understood what the trade brought us back (WS title)

I was excited when they got Renteria. I didnt want to see Renteria go. He was horrible defensively, but he was still useful offensively, and I really thought his defense was an aberration.

I didnt want to see Gonzalez go. Best ive ever seen with the glove, obviously hes aged. He was bad offensively, but not to the levels of this season although his OB numbers were atrocious. He did hit 9 HR and have 50 RBIS, while not the most telling offensive stats when you look at his OB production numbers, but we knew what we were getting, so I think he outperformed expectations.

I was pissed off when they got Lugo, I never liked him, and Im pissed off they got rid of him.

Lowrie was a nice surprise last year, but ill give him the benefit of doubt and say injuries have robbed him off anything he was capable of doing.

The Woodward deal was reactionary to Lowrie getting DL'd, Gonzalez was reactionary to Lowrie as well as looked at as an improvement to Woodward.

Its just a whole frustrating series of events.
lol Love the vent. I feel some of those frustrations.

That's because at this point naming names is crucial. The grass is always greener in someone else's pasture after all, much less how green it is in a speculative pasture you don't even need to explicitly identify. Until you get specific you're just speaking from your posterior orifice.

It's easy to say Theo did a terrible job acquiring SS talent until you start to name who else he should have gotten. Who was available and who wasn't is a critical part of the discussion right now, especially since the free agent market has been very dry on shortstops for years with most of the good ones being locked up by their teams and thus unattainable. .

I don't care how big the budget is, holes are going to crop up on any roster especially if the presumptive starter spends the bulk of the season out with this or that injury. Money doesn't even count for anything unless it's spent well, or haven't you watched the Mets recently? The fact is that since Renteria at least there really hasn't been that guy out on the free agent market that is definitely worth spending money ON. Since then among the better free agent shortstops have been Rafael Furcal and his bad back, David Eckstein twice, Khalil Green, Edgar Renteria again, of course Lugo, and a badly dimished offensive version of Orlando Cabrera

In short there hasn't been anyone out there that I'd bat higher than 9th. I don't believe in blowing good money on #9 hitters.

You'll have to do better than "we're the richest team we can do anything!!!!" in order to convince me some kind of magical super shortstop X was out there that we should have stuck with for these years. You think we should have done what? Sign Rafael Furcal? Are you one of the Orlando Cabrera mouthbreathers? what should we have done that we didn't do?
Very nice post.

But he couldn't hit when he was here. Should we believe that he has improved?
It's a defensive move. If he hits anything it can only be considered a bonus.

He's going to bat too. We are replacing one black hole in the lineup for another.
But you will be ahppy when he turns those inning ending DP's:D

What part of 'he wasn't acquired for his bat' isn't sticking? He was acquired for defense. I don't think the FO cares at all what he does at the plate as long as he defends well.
Not sure he will:D


Ya, Gonzalez isn't ideal. But if he can help sure up the defense then so be it.

[SoxSport]

I feel better about losing O. Cabrera now that I see it translated into Ellsbury. But then his agent is Boras so I don't feel so good again.

Most likely, Buchholz was part of the several "good" packages offered for Halladay. I never thought Toronto's GM was serious about trading Halladay. That's why I think it didn't happen.

They had their chances to get Lee and Peavy. Both were seriously on the market. But Theo seems to prefer to go after the toughest fish to catch. In this case, Hernandez and Halladay.

I hope Gonzalez still has some D left in his game. They need it at SS.

I see Tito wants to keep Tazawa in the rotation. He and/or Buchholz will have to step up to Lester level if they have any chance. I don't see Penny or Wake as playoff starters.

[a700hitter]

You're wrong. Letting Cabrera go gave Theo draft picks that were used to get Ellsbury and Lowrie.

I think this is actually a really stupid discussion. So much second guessing and grass-is-greenering.

Giving out F grades and harsh criticism for the SS situation on a team that has won more than 95 games in 5 of the past 6 years, with 2 World Series and 2 ALCS losses seems like the ultimate in elitist fandom.

A700, you talk about your experience with this team sucking for much of your life, of the difficulties of being a Red Sox fan in the past when this team disappointed you to no end, yet here we sit, with a very good team, a very good franchise and plenty of reason for optimism, and you're talking about the SS position as if there are either obvious answers or as if the job is an easy one.

Every team has holes. Every GM has imperfections and weak spots upon examination of their past teams. The Yankees spend nearly twice as much as the Red Sox do and their bullpen has, except for Rivera, been pretty bad most years recently, their starting pitching suspect. They have had a lineup full of potential hall of famers yet they too missed the playoffs and don't have WS under their name this decade. Should we list every team and their persistent imperfections? Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, White Sox, Mariners? Are there teams you would rather be watching every day?

Yeah, it is too bad they haven't been able to find their permenant SS but to pretend that someone would be available NOW, or even in the past year or two is absurd.

You think there are lots of secret deals lying under the surface that we all would have accepted? You think Theo had access to, say, Stephen Drew or Troy Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes and didn't pull the trigger? I think he didn't pull the trigger because they are not available. I think we have seen what is available coming through BOston like a revolving door. Just like when the Yankees continue to struggle to upgrade their bullpen or starting pitching in years past, it wasn't for lack of trying, it was for lack of available talent. These GMs aren't kings sitting on their throne's able to demand talent like mutton.

You refuse to give Theo the benefit of the doubt in just about every situation. Do you actually believe that he thinks Gonz is a better SS option than Tulo or Jeter or Reyes or Hanley? Of course he knows who the better players are and of course he covets them, but not at the expense of other positions.

I would say that their success without the presence of a franchise SS indicates something important about the SS position; namely, that perhaps a patch-work approach to the shortstop position is a tenible option in the absence of that franchise player.

I say we all should just hope that the SS the Sox need comes along in the near future. Nobody here is pretending that Gonzalez is the answer. He's clearly not. He's not Theo's answer, he's just another guy to have around who can field the ball and who has played SS in the past.

I see no reason to think that if there were a better option available that Theo wouldn't have gone after him.

**Let example1 as FO dogboy posts commence**I've got my pom poms out. Go Theo. In Theo we trust. he's so smart. There are just no SS's. It's unfair to criticize him because he is perfect. If he got us a good SS, we never would have won two world championships. I guess criticism of the GM is out of bounds. His moves should never be discussed or questioned. That being said, his grade for planning the SS position gets an F this season.