Can Theo take a hit here?

[d-money]

Theo should take a hit here.He brung in Smoltz and Penny and they both have been putrid!They dont give this team a chance to come back and win the game.He could have tried and maded a deal for a 3rd starter in the trading deadline and instead went for some offenseive help which was needed as well.I know there wasnt much out there but anyone is better then these two jokers right now!Another thing is this infatuation with Clay Buchholz who looks to be very overrated.His fastball looks mediocre.I am just pissed that the pitching staff has a big hole after Beckett and Lester.Now this team is counting on Tim Wakefield who is on his last leg and Dice K coming back with his nibbling!Ughhhh

[SCM33]

another new user, another pointless thread. There should be a minimum of posts before you are allowed to create a thread. This has been talked about elsewhere.

[d-money]

I wanna get it out in the open.Everyone always gives praises to Theo.He finally maded moves that havent worked out.Buchholz is not the pitching gem of this organization anymore.

[jacksonianmarch]

New posters guys. Give them a chance. There are some forums that do this to every newb and before you know it, they become graveyards.

[Mr Crunchy]

Fuck off Jacko, patronizing motherless fuck, give him a chance....Kidding
Its hard coming in here and wanting to discuss things that have been analyzed by the panel ad nauseum.
It wasnt a bad idea bringing in Smoltz and Penny but it emphasizes the huge discrepency in talent between the National League and American...I heard a guy on espn say that St Louis has the best 3 man rotation in their league and that maybe true. Whats also true is that of the 3 men 2 were waived by AL teams including Joelle Piniero, a guy who couldnt get anyone out in the AL and now is very effective in the NL...Penny and Smoltz could probably still be effective if they didnt have to see the DH and the deeper teams we have in the AL, they are simply useless here,especially Smoltz.

[Dojji]

Agreed. Given their opening day roster, the Kansas City Royals or Cleveland Indians might be competitive in the NLW.

Just to get this thread back onto a productive track I'd like to answer D-money's question with a question if I may: Exactly how much do you blame a GM for good moves that don't work? Do you write them a pass if it was a worthy try and just doesn't pan out? Or is there a point where they have to get this stuff right?

[jacksonianmarch]

Dojji, I will answer your question with another question. How can you call a move "good" if it doesnt work out? Isnt that by definition a "bad move"?

[Dojji]

That's kind of what I'm talking about. That's a very legitimate way of looking at things (and one I'd expect to hear from a NYY fan, but that's neither here nor there) but you can't look at every move the GM makes that doesn't pan out as a bad move just because you have the benefit of hindsight either. My question is where do you draw that line.

[jacksonianmarch]

Every GM has clunkers. Actually, most GMs make more clunkers than they do steals. Typically, a GM is forged by one or two deals that solidify the team for a decade and allow for the mistakes to get fritted away like they never happened.

[Dojji]

That's kinda ducking the question IMHO. I'm asking at what point you turn on or criticize a guy for making a move that made sense in the offseason and blows up in his face. "Every GM has a few bad days" sort of addresses the question but IMHO not really.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is evaluated on a yr to yr basis. A world series title gives you a 2 yr window IMO. That window is coming to a close at the end of this yr. If they win it again, everything will be forgotten.

[a700hitter]

Give the newbie a chance. Too many time we turn obnoxious on a new poster and chase them away. What was done to that guy who complained about players not signing autographs was despicable. It was a completely valid point and no reason to attack the guy. That's how he felt about the players. A lot of players are major immature a-holes, yet we chopped up the poster telling him he was an idiot to feel the way he felt. Knock off the feeding frenzy on the newbies unless the are conspiracy theorists or yankee fans.

[rhet]

You have to look at the body of work. While individual moves are always subject to criticism, at some point a pattern of consistent success or failure with those moves emerges. Also, every GM should be responsible for the makeup of the roster. Short of the swine flu, there simply is no excuse for a high budget team to run out of competitive players.

[redsoxrules]

Smoltz and Penny were awfull pickups , end of discussion

[Dipre]

Give the newbie a chance. Too many time we turn obnoxious on a new poster and chase them away. What was done to that guy who complained about players not signing autographs was despicable. It was a completely valid point and no reason to attack the guy. That's how he felt about the players. A lot of players are major immature a-holes, yet we chopped up the poster telling him he was an idiot to feel the way he felt. Knock off the feeding frenzy on the newbies unless the are conspiracy theorists or yankee fans.

This is very true.



Smoltz and Penny were awfull pickups , end of discussion

Penny has given this team exactly what was expected of him.

Smoltz, on the other hand has no excuse.

[redsoxrules]

This is very true.




Penny has given this team exactly what was expected of him.

Smoltz, on the other hand has no excuse.

WTF has penny given us?

[Dipre]

WTF has penny given us?

Close to league average innings.

What, did you expect more?

[rhet]

Close to league average innings.

What, did you expect more?

I expected a core pitching acquisition to be better than a 5.20 ERA and 1.50 WHIP.

[Dipre]

I expected a core pitching acquisition to be better than a 5.20 ERA and 1.50 WHIP.

Then you were the only one.

Penny was actually supposed to hold the fort until Smoltz got back.

So much for that plan.

[rhet]

Then you were the only one.

Penny was actually supposed to hold the fort until Smoltz got back.

So much for that plan.

Me and Theo, since he gave him $5 million to perform this year. You don't give 5.20/1.50 that kind of dough.

[Dipre]

Me and Theo, since he gave him $5 million to perform this year. You don't give 5.20/1.50 that kind of dough.

In all fairness, a flyer was being taken on the guy.

[jacksonianmarch]

but a flier is a minor league deal. 5 mil for a player is not a flier.

[Dipre]

but a flier is a minor league deal. 5 mil for a player is not a flier.

Wow, this coming from a Yankee fan.

Hypocrisy at its best.

[a700hitter]

With Penny and Smoltz we got a $10 million sack of shit. Some of us saw this coming.. Low risk moves....yeah right. Maybe that is true for the opposing batters who have beatem them mercilessly.

[jacksonianmarch]

Right, 10 million dollars should get you a good player. Sometimes it doesnt (Carl fucking Pavano). The fact that you spread out the 10 mil over 2 players who have significant risk attached doesnt change things at all.

[TheKilo]

Answer to this question? Absolutely. He constructed a very old, very creaky team and is having his ass handed to him for it.

[SCM33]

Answer to this question? Absolutely. He constructed a very old, very creaky team and is having his ass handed to him for it.

If they dont start improving dramatically, we may be looking at a repeat of 2006 with Theo making small moves to improve the team next year. I am still wondering if the VMart deal was done for this year or next, since the obvious deal of acquiring Halladay would have made the team better now rather than later. I bet Theo takes a serious run at Halladay in the offseason now.

[Keeper]

VMart is a nice acquisition, but he doesn't solve the team's biggest need right now: starting pitching. Theo should definitely take a hit. For what Ricciardi was asking for, getting Halladay may have been unrealistic. However, Cliff Lee could have been got.

[TheKilo]

Cliff Lee was traded for four prospects, all of which have a realistic shot of contributing to the ML team.

I agree that he should have been the target, but let's not say he was traded for peanuts.

[Keeper]

I didn't say he was traded for peanuts. But he could have been got. What the Sox gave up for VMart probably would have also worked for Lee.

[a700hitter]

Answer to this question? Absolutely. He constructed a very old, very creaky team and is having his ass handed to him for it.For all the blather I hear on this board about how this FO is not willing to mortgage the future, you are exactly right. This is an old injured creaky bunch. Where's the speed that a young team should have? Other than Ellsbury, we have no speed. Drew, Pedroia and Bay are good base runners, but their speed is not a weapon. In 2007, this team at times had three guys in the lineup that could fly. Ellsbury, Crisp and Lugo were speed weapons. They could steal, take the extra base and leg out IF hits. Now, I'm not advocating that we should have kept Crisp or Lugo. I am just noting that speed really is not a weapon for us other than Ells, and when he is slumping, speed is not part of our game.

[TheKilo]

I didn't say he was traded for peanuts. But he could have been got. What the Sox gave up for VMart probably would have also worked for Lee.

I disagree, but I digress.

[Keeper]

I disagree, but I digress.

Eh, I think you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing

VMart and Lee are the same age. VMart plays every day and is the best hitting catcher in the AL after Mauer. Lee just came off his best season and is having another good one, but he has been inconsistent in the past.

How exactly does Lee merit more prospects than VMart?

[Dipre]

Eh, I think you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing

VMart and Lee are the same age. VMart plays every day and is the best hitting catcher in the AL after Mauer. Lee just came off his best season and is having another good one, but he has been inconsistent in the past.

How exactly does Lee merit more prospects than VMart?

Lee slipped between Theo's fingers because he was so fixated on Halladay, apparently.

[Dojji]

Lee slipped between Theo's fingers because he was so fixated on Halladay, apparently.

I really doubt that. if a GM can't multitask he has no business doing the job. The price Philly gave up to get Lee was not a small one. This may have been a simple situation where Theo set a price and wouldn't go beyond it, and the Phils went beyond it.

[Dipre]

I really doubt that. if a GM can't multitask he has no business doing the job. The price Philly gave up to get Lee was not a small one. This may have been a simple situation where Theo set a price and wouldn't go beyond it, and the Phils went beyond it.

Thank you, Mr. Epstein.

[TheKilo]

Lee slipped between Theo's fingers because he was so fixated on Halladay, apparently.

If that's the case he absolutely needs to take a hit here.

[Dipre]

If that's the case he absolutely needs to take a hit here.

Indeed he does.

[SoxSport]

I didn't say he was traded for peanuts. But he could have been got. What the Sox gave up for VMart probably would have also worked for Lee.

I read that the Indians would not do both to one team. Theo got a good deal for VMart, but his priority was wrong. He should have gotten Lee.But I doubt he could have gotten Lee for the same package as for VMart. He had the Phillies seriously competing for Lee, and it probably would have cost him Buchholz.

What I found disturbing is Theo makes a good deal for LaRoche, who comes in and hits well the first few games. The he deals for VMart and promptly trades LaRoche for Kotchman.That tells me Theo didn't have his head together about what he really wanted to do at the trade deadline. Sure, things can change depending on who suddenly becomes available, but to trade a guy you just traded for to fill a hole--that tells me things were a bit too fluid.

You go back to 2007, and the Beckett/Lowell deal that gave them the Championship. Theo didn't make that deal--he was off somewhere pouting at the time about press leaks. Some say he doesn't make the deal if he's there. He wouldn't have given up Hanley R., who was in single or double A ball. If there was no championship in 2007, Epstein's record would look different now.

Not that I think he's a bad GM. He's done some great things--and some bad things. He has a lot of money to spend, and tends to be overrated. But there are far worse GMs out there.

[a700hitter]

Not that I think he's a bad GM. He's done some great things--and some bad things. He has a lot of money to spend, and tends to be overrated. But there are far worse GMs out there.Right now the scale is tipping in the wrong direction for Epstein.

[example1]

Right now the scale is tipping in the wrong direction for Epstein.

You say that, but you watch how quickly other teams come running to grab him if the Red Sox are stupid enough to let him go or dismiss his effectiveness.

[jacksonianmarch]

Just because other teams will do something doesnt make it a right move. That being said, Epstein should have a lot longer leash than some are proposing and I guarantee he will stay in his position for a long, long time. Because not only is he keeping the team competitive and filling the park, he is doing so at less and less a salary burden, which makes the ownership really, really happy.

[SoxSport]

The interesting thing is we don't really know how the strings are pulled on the Red Sox. Who is responsible for what. Who built the farm system? Who picks the draft selections? Who hires the staff?
My guess is there are others involved besides Epstein for most decisions. It just isn't public knowledge.

[a700hitter]

You say that, but you watch how quickly other teams come running to grab him if the Red Sox are stupid enough to let him go or dismiss his effectiveness.That really doesn't mean a thing. FO incompetents have been getting shuffled around major league organizations for as long as the game has been around. I'm not saying that Theo is an incompetent, but this season is not one of his finer moments.

[rhet]

I disagree, but I digress.


The interesting thing is we don't really know how the strings are pulled on the Red Sox. Who is responsible for what. Who built the farm system? Who picks the draft selections? Who hires the staff?
My guess is there are others involved besides Epstein for most decisions. It just isn't public knowledge.

Epstein is responsible regardless of who does the scouting and player evaluations. He has done a good job in amateur player acquisition and development.

Similarly, he is responsible for ML player acquisitions and contracts. In my opinion, he has done a poor job overall in this function, despite some obvious winners.

[stcjones]

Fuck off Jacko, patronizing motherless fuck, give him a chance....Kidding
Its hard coming in here and wanting to discuss things that have been analyzed by the panel ad nauseum.
It wasnt a bad idea bringing in Smoltz and Penny but it emphasizes the huge discrepency in talent between the National League and American...I heard a guy on espn say that St Louis has the best 3 man rotation in their league and that maybe true. Whats also true is that of the 3 men 2 were waived by AL teams including Joelle Piniero, a guy who couldnt get anyone out in the AL and now is very effective in the NL...Penny and Smoltz could probably still be effective if they didnt have to see the DH and the deeper teams we have in the AL, they are simply useless here,especially Smoltz.


I don't think there is any scenario where Smoltz could still "be effective"........except throwing out the "meatballs" for the Home Run derby........;)

[das11209]

When did Theo last make a good trade or free agent sign? As much credit he gets for homegrown player development ( should he?) - he has totally sucked as a GM.

2006 - Red Sox season failed becuase they did not get Abreau and Lidle from the Phillies - and let the Yankees get them. Theo then said "We are not the Yankees". Next off-season he signed Lugo and Drew to ridiculous contracts.

From WMP to Gagne - he has done one mistake after another but still gets a free pass from the Sox fans. He has failed the Sox multiple times and lost to the Yankees from Damon to Texiera. When he has won ( Matsuzaka) - his move did not pan out. The only trade that has benifited the Sox since 2004 is Becket + Lowell and I think if Theo was in charge - we do not make that trade.

Get rid of Theo now and throw out Tito as well. We need to do complete rebuild.

[Dipre]

When did Theo last make a good trade or free agent sign? As much credit he gets for homegrown player development ( should he?) - he has totally sucked as a GM.

2006 - Red Sox season failed becuase they did not get Abreau and Lidle from the Phillies - and let the Yankees get them. Theo then said "We are not the Yankees". Next off-season he signed Lugo and Drew to ridiculous contracts.

From WMP to Gagne - he has done one mistake after another but still gets a free pass from the Sox fans. He has failed the Sox multiple times and lost to the Yankees from Damon to Texiera. When he has won ( Matsuzaka) - his move did not pan out. The only trade that has benifited the Sox since 2004 is Becket + Lowell and I think if Theo was in charge - we do not make that trade.

Get rid of Theo now and throw out Tito as well. We need to do complete rebuild.

He should.

But he has sucked ass in the FA market.

[jacksonianmarch]

To be honest with you, the scouting director is the one who coordinates all of the draftees and the scouting. So while Theo might get some credit for it, he isnt the one putting in the time. For the yankees, their drafts and latin signings are run by Damon Oppenheimer. Cashman gets involved if he truly wants a player OR if there is a change in budget. I think the biggest thing Theo gets credit for is recognizing the talent that the scouting director drafts and not dealing them away in stupid deals.

[SoxSport]

Epstein is responsible regardless of who does the scouting and player evaluations. He has done a good job in amateur player acquisition and development.

Similarly, he is responsible for ML player acquisitions and contracts. In my opinion, he has done a poor job overall in this function, despite some obvious winners.

You know, you never see these responsibilites spelled out in the media. It would be good if the fans knew just who is responsible for doing what. I recall reading during the ARod non-deal a couple of years ago that big money decisions were made by a Committee of 4:
Epstein, Lucchino, Werner? and Henry. Don't know if that's changed or how that affects trades or FA signings.

Epstein & Co. certainly have done an excellent job in player development. I agree FA signings and trades have been poor too often. But the recent Bay. LaRoche and VMart trades have been strong--though I think he missed on his priorities (i.e., a starting pitcher).
And VMart's offensive impact would be much stronger if he would replace Ortiz in the lineup.

I get the impression Epstein is torn between developing home grown players and signing or trading for proven veterans. There is an obvious money benefit in developing your own.The problem is only a few pan out, and the rest lose their value quickly if they don't.
I would argue it is less risky to trade an unproven talent for a proven one--if you can afford to take on salary.

[ORS]

It may be less risky in terms of success rate, but your misses can be pretty strong if one does pan out. Look at the Beckett trade. He's been great in some stretches over the time the Sox have had him, and the throw-in, Lowell has provided good to great play at 3B (until this recent stretch). However, Hanley Ramirez has been an MVP caliber player for the entire duration of his time in FLA. They got something good in that deal, but they paid dearly for it.

[SoxSport]

Get rid of Theo now and throw out Tito as well. We need to do complete rebuild.

I think Tito's job is less secure than Theo's. Though Tito is a popular guy. But his 1 inning per relief pitcher regimen has worn the bullpen thin. The Yankees used a guy for 3 innings in the extra-inning game the other night while Tito was shuffling pitchers every inning, and had nobody left in the end but Tazawa. That was followed up by bringing a no-name from the minors to come into a 2-0 game yesterday. And then there's Youks playing LF--not easy in Yankee Stadium. Where is Reddick? And the persistence in keeping Ortiz in a lineup that isn't hitting. I see a lot of disarray there, right now. The club is sinking fast partly because of bad decisions.

[TheKilo]

When did Theo last make a good trade or free agent sign? As much credit he gets for homegrown player development ( should he?) - he has totally sucked as a GM.

2006 - Red Sox season failed becuase they did not get Abreau and Lidle from the Phillies - and let the Yankees get them. Theo then said "We are not the Yankees". Next off-season he signed Lugo and Drew to ridiculous contracts.

From WMP to Gagne - he has done one mistake after another but still gets a free pass from the Sox fans. He has failed the Sox multiple times and lost to the Yankees from Damon to Texiera. When he has won ( Matsuzaka) - his move did not pan out. The only trade that has benifited the Sox since 2004 is Becket + Lowell and I think if Theo was in charge - we do not make that trade.

Get rid of Theo now and throw out Tito as well. We need to do complete rebuild.

Trade: Last week, for Martinez. Crisp for Ramon Ramirez was pretty good.
FA signing: Okajima was probably his best in the last three, four years.

I'd bet you want Lou Piniella as manager.

[diony]

I think Tito's job is less secure than Theo's. Though Tito is a popular guy. But his 1 inning per relief pitcher regimen has worn the bullpen thin. The Yankees used a guy for 3 innings in the extra-inning game the other night while Tito was shuffling pitchers every inning, and had nobody left in the end but Tazawa. That was followed up by bringing a no-name from the minors to come into a 2-0 game yesterday. And then there's Youks playing LF--not easy in Yankee Stadium. Where is Reddick? And the persistence in keeping Ortiz in a lineup that isn't hitting. I see a lot of disarray there, right now. The club is sinking fast partly because of bad decisions.

Green, Papi, Reddick, Kotch/Lowell on the same lineup? :o

Yes please.