Theo wants Felix Hernandez

[ManRam]

As we try to piece together a possible deal for Victor Martinez, we have learned the Red Sox were one of a handful of teams who inquired about Seattle ace Felix Hernandez. Evidently the talks didn't get too far, but the Mariners did entertain discussion on their superstar, a major league source said.



This interesting that the M's would even entertain the discussions. Although I guess it's because he's only under control for 2 more years until he gets a GIANT raise.

[Dipre]

This interesting that the M's would even entertain the discussions. Although I guess it's because he's only under control for 2 more years until he gets a GIANT raise.

Which we can obviously pay.

[TedWilliams101]

Which we can obviously pay.

You KNOW he'll be in pin stripes. JK... I hope! :lol:

[Dipre]

You KNOW he'll be in pin stripes. JK... I hope! :lol:

The man will be a Red Sox.

He was born to pitch on this team. B)

[example1]

The man will be a Red Sox.

He was born to pitch on this team. B)

They should be willing to pay well above value to get Felix Hernandez on the Sox roster.

If Theo could possibly do it before next year then Felix would have two seasons remaining under arbitration. Offer Seattle a huge package of talent for Felix then offer him a long deal in the area of 8 years/152m (a la Miguel Cabrera), and he'd be hard pressed not to take it and help anchor the rotation for years. That's 11m, 15m, 20m, 20m, 21m, 21m, 22m, 22m. At that point he would be 31.

The Red Sox can blow their prospects out of the water and get really, really good atheletes from the draft. They drafted a number of them this year who they should pay. Every one of those players is gold in trade situations; players who other teams coveted but who were too expensive in the context of a draft. In the context of acquiring a franchise player, $3m is nothing to the Sox.

[BSN07]

I'm all for making a huge package to send to Seattle for Felix. I think it can be done.

I wonder if the would take Dice-K in a deal with some prospects? lol

[Dipre]

I'm all for making a huge package to send to Seattle for Felix. I think it can be done.

I wonder if the would take Dice-K in a deal with some prospects? lol

If they trade Felix it's because they're in all-out rebuilding mode, so Dice-K wouldn't be attractive to them in the least.

[Dojji]

Possible successor and heir to Josh Beckett.

Any reasonable price should be paid.


The Mariners wouldn't be as interested in Buchholz because what they want is 6 years of cost control on a high ceiling guy. And they're desperate for a decent 1B. Kelly and Anderson would be a good starting point from Seattle's perspective, I'm thinking. They'll want more, but those two will get you in the door. And I wouldn't worry about trading either of them because our core rotation would be young and excellent with Beckett, Hernandez, Lester, Daisuke, and Buchholz, and good pitching prospects come along with fair regularity, and if we lose Anderson, Youks still has a few good years and Rizzo's not that far behind.

[Coco's Disciples]

Offseason. Make it happen.

[Dojji]

Looking at what I see as Seattle's specific needs, I can see a package of Casey Kelly, Lars Anderson, Michael Bowden, Yamaico Navarro and Luis Exposito to be much to their liking. From our perspective that's a high price but not really too much to pay to bring the King to Fenway.

[das11209]

Looking at what I see as Seattle's specific needs, I can see a package of Casey Kelly, Lars Anderson, Michael Bowden, Yamaico Navarro and Luis Exposito to be much to their liking. From our perspective that's a high price but not really too much to pay to bring the King to Fenway.

No thanks. That's something we will not give up for the Doc.The king is nothing compared to the Doc who is easily 1 of the best 3 pitchers in the game.

[schillingouttheks]

No thanks. That's something we will not give up for the Doc.The king is nothing compared to the Doc who is easily 1 of the best 3 pitchers in the game.

Felix Hernandez is 9 years younger than Doc. If he continues to improve his already elite level of pitching, he will be in Doc territory. You trade for Felix because he is the type of pitcher that you lock up for YEARS.

[Coco's Disciples]

Lol @ Hernandez is nothing compared to Halladay. He's a Cy contender and he's 23.

[Dojji]

You pay a legendary price for Felix. Which is probably why the Mariners are putting their heads together.

I would give up every player on this roster not named Lester or Pedroia for Hernandez.

[Dipre]

You pay a legendary price for Felix. Which is probably why the Mariners are putting their heads together.

I would give up every player on this roster not named Lester or Pedroia for Hernandez.

You're being unreasonable.

A) Seattle doesn't want high-priced veterans.

B ) We have a farm system to avoid giving up established talent in trades.

Your logic is faulty to the core.

[schillingouttheks]

You're being unreasonable.

A) Seattle doesn't want high-priced veterans.

B ) We have a farm system to avoid giving up established talent in trades.

Your logic is faulty to the core.

I think he was referring more to the fact that he would trade Bard, Papelbon, Buchholz, Reddick, etc.

[das11209]

You pay a legendary price for Felix. Which is probably why the Mariners are putting their heads together.

I would give up every player on this roster not named Lester or Pedroia for Hernandez.

I won't - he has shown great promises - but not the consistency to be compared to Doc Halladay yet.

[Dipre]

I think he was referring more to the fact that he would trade Bard, Papelbon, Buchholz, Reddick, etc.

Bucholz does not give 6 cost-controlled years, neither does Papelbon, who's already arb-elegible.

Again, the whole purpose of the system besides churning out players for the big club is trade fodder.

[Dipre]

I won't - he has shown great promises - but not the consistency to be compared to Doc Halladay yet.

Do not fight this battle.

You will lose. And be embarrassed.

Felix is a 23-year-old Cy Young contender.

Read it again slowly:

23. Cy. Contender.

We're talking about the SP with arguably the best stuff in the Majors, the poise to use it, and is dominating the AL.

[schillingouttheks]

Bucholz does not give 6 cost-controlled years, neither does Papelbon, who's already arb-elegible.

Again, the whole purpose of the system besides churning out players for the big club is trade fodder.

I know I know. I'm just saying that I don't think he was referring to the veterans, but to the other younger players on the big club. Whether or not Seattle is looking for those type of players in another thing. You can still be willing to trade some valuable pieces to your team without knowing whether or not the other team wants them.

For what it's worth, I'm on the same page as you are.

[Dojji]

You're being unreasonable.

A) Seattle doesn't want high-priced veterans.

B ) We have a farm system to avoid giving up established talent in trades.

Your logic is faulty to the core.

Sarcasm logged, noted and smiled at.

Everyone and anyone except the very, very best franchise players, if Seattle asks, Seattle gets.

This is why:

Beckett
Felix
Lester
(healthy) Daisuke
Buchholz.

I think anyone would agree with me when I say that I would be a very happy little boy if that became our rotation.

[Coco's Disciples]

We may have to trade Clay.

[schillingouttheks]

Do not fight this battle.

You will lose. And be embarrassed.

Felix is a 23-year-old Cy Young contender.

Read it again slowly:

23. Cy. Contender.

We're talking about the SP with arguably the best stuff in the Majors, the poise to use it, and is dominating the AL.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6194

lol

[Dipre]

Sarcasm logged, noted and smiled at.

Everyone and anyone except the very, very best franchise players, if Seattle asks, Seattle gets.

This is why:

Beckett
Felix
Lester
(healthy) Daisuke
Buchholz.

I think anyone would agree with me when I say that I would be a very happy little boy if that became our rotation.

I don't see the sarcasm.

I simply pointed out the fact that giving up members of the current roster is not needed to acquire Felix, and that most likely, there aren't many players from the active roster that Seattle may want and we would be willing to give up.

You need to look up the definition of sarcasm in the dictionary.

You're using it wrong.

[Dipre]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6194

lol

Thing to note i hadn't realized:

The kid whose not near Halladay's level is taking him to school on almost every major statistical category.

And he actually leads the Doc in IP.

lolironylol.

[schillingouttheks]

Thing to note i hadn't realized:

The kid whose not near Halladay's level is taking him to school on almost every major statistical category.

And he actually leads the Doc in IP.

lolironylol.

I had the same realizations as you when I saw that page. If there was one category in which I would never have thought King Felix would have Doc beat, it would be IP. Well, he does. The "lol" I posted was completely necessary in that case. :D

[Dojji]

We may have to trade Clay.

Seattle is not going to be as interested in Clay as they would be an equivalent player with no MLB experience. They want top pitching prospects with full cost controls, not just as much talent as possible.

[Dojji]

I don't see the sarcasm.

I simply pointed out the fact that giving up members of the current roster is not needed to acquire Felix, and that most likely, there aren't many players from the active roster that Seattle may want and we would be willing to give up.

You need to look up the definition of sarcasm in the dictionary.

You're using it wrong.


That's funny, I would never have thought of putting you in the "doesn't get it" category. I thought you were just BSing with me because you got it and you wanted to be funny about it.

I really don't think that what I was saying is at all difficult to understand.

[Dipre]

I had the same realizations as you when I saw that page. If there was one category in which I would never have thought King Felix would have Doc beat, it would be IP. Well, he does. The "lol" I posted was completely necessary in that case. :D

Indeed, as soon as i saw it i went straight to IP, and i lol'ed. Hard.

[Dipre]

That's funny, I would never have thought of putting you in the "doesn't get it" category. I thought you were just BSing with me because you got it and you wanted to be funny about it.

I really don't think that what I was saying is at all difficult to understand.

The fuck?

Well you're pretty left field, so excuse me for not taking everything you say with a grain of salt.

You've said weirder stuff.

[Dojji]

The fuck?

Well you're pretty left field, so excuse me for not taking everything you say with a grain of salt.

You've said weirder stuff.

I suppose. One would think it pretty obvious however that when a guy, even one known for a bit of occasional lunacy, wants to trade the entire roster of a contending team for one player there's a little hyperbole going on.

Ahh well.

[Dipre]

I suppose. One would think it pretty obvious however that when a guy, even one known for a bit of occasional lunacy, wants to trade the entire roster of a contending team for one player there's a little hyperbole going on.

Ahh well.

It's................you.

You were willing to give up the roster for Teahen. :lol:

[Dojji]

It's................you.

You were willing to give up the roster for Teahen. :lol:

The only time I made up a trade package for Teahen, I had him going to Boston for Felix Doubront.

[Dipre]

The only time I made up a trade package for Teahen, I had him going to Boston for Felix Doubront.......and the rest of the Sox farm system.

[Dojji]

Whatever. Not worth arguing about.

[Dipre]

Whatever. Not worth arguing about.

Doesn't smiley= joke or sarcasm?

Well, apparently the sarcasm/joke detection fail goes both ways.

[ManRam]

We may have to trade Clay.

Oh darn :lol:

I'm with most of you guys. Felix is the kind of guy you go out and trade for. I'm putting ANY prospect on the block and letting Seattle choose from 3/4/5 prospects and going from there. Having Hernandez and Lester at the start of the rotation (Wake will find a way to sneek in somehow) for the next 10 years is something special.

[a700hitter]

Oh darn :lol:

I'm with most of you guys. Felix is the kind of guy you go out and trade for. I'm putting ANY prospect on the block and letting Seattle choose from 3/4/5 prospects and going from there. Having Hernandez and Lester at the start of the rotation (Wake will find a way to sneek in somehow) for the next 10 years is something special.Let's hope that Clay is still a prospect after this season. I hope he doesn't become Ian Kennedy.

[ManRam]

You thought the Jake Peavy deal was a surprise? The Red Sox, Mariners and Padres discussed a trade that would have made the Peavy acquisition look like the Jason Hirsh deal, according to Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times. Baker hears that the Red Sox gave the Mariners the chance to choose five of the following players in exchange for Felix Hernandez:

* Clay Buchholz
* Daniel Bard
* Justin Masterson
* Nick Hagadone
* Michael Bowden
* Felix Doubront
* Josh Reddick
* Yamaico Navarro

The Mariners apparently turned down the deal, at which point the Padres became involved in discussions about a possible three-way trade. The Mariners would have received Adrian Gonzalez, Buchholz and prospects in the deal. They would have sent Felix to the Red Sox and dealt Brandon Morrow, Phillippe Aumont and Carlos Triunfel to the Padres, who would have received prospects from the Red Sox as well. In the end, Baker says the Mariners nixed the deal.

[BSN07]

I won't - he has shown great promises - but not the consistency to be compared to Doc Halladay yet.


You thought the Jake Peavy deal was a surprise? The Red Sox, Mariners and Padres discussed a trade that would have made the Peavy acquisition look like the Jason Hirsh deal, according to Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times. Baker hears that the Red Sox gave the Mariners the chance to choose five of the following players in exchange for Felix Hernandez:

* Clay Buchholz
* Daniel Bard
* Justin Masterson
* Nick Hagadone
* Michael Bowden
* Felix Doubront
* Josh Reddick
* Yamaico Navarro

The Mariners apparently turned down the deal, at which point the Padres became involved in discussions about a possible three-way trade. The Mariners would have received Adrian Gonzalez, Buchholz and prospects in the deal. They would have sent Felix to the Red Sox and dealt Brandon Morrow, Phillippe Aumont and Carlos Triunfel to the Padres, who would have received prospects from the Red Sox as well. In the end, Baker says the Mariners nixed the deal.

Wow that would have been a blockbuster lol


I see something like,

Buchholz/ Bowden(Tazawa, Kelley)/ Wagner(Espositio)/Kalish(Westmoreland)/Anderson/

Maybe it doesn't happen. But I like the idea that Theo went after someone who isn't necessarily available. Will be interesting if he pushes for him this off season.


I don't think this kid is the heir to Beckett. I think Beckett gets inked to an extension this off season. If the Sox get Felix it will be ,

Beckett
Lester
Felix

for the next 5+ years. Which would have the Sox in contention every year IMO.

[TheKilo]

Kelly, Westmorland, and Tazawa won't be traded this offseason for a variety of reasons, and Bard should only be involved in talks for Felix or Gonzalez.

[BSN07]

Kelly, Westmorland, and Tazawa won't be traded this offseason for a variety of reasons, and Bard should only be involved in talks for Felix or Gonzalez.

I don't see Tazawa getting moved. But I can see Seattle really liking him. And for Felix, I think he would have to be made available. Even though he looks really good.

Buchholz/Bowden/Anderson/OF/C is a really good place to start at IMO.

Bard I don't see going. I think he eventually replaces Papelbon. Whether that's next year or the year after.

I know a lot of those guys were already offered and Seattle declined. But I don't think they make a move like this mid season. It is much more likely they make this kind of big move in the off season.

[Dojji]

I would trade Buchholz for a bent paperclip ATM. Try to deny it all you want, he's starting to have that Hansenlike feeling to him when you watch him pitch. One minute "damn that's nasty!" another minute "Damn that was stupid!"

[TheKilo]

So, Dojji, what do you think of Clay Buchholz? I really don't think you've beaten that horse enough yet.

[Dipre]

So, Dojji, what do you think of Clay Buchholz? I really don't think you've beaten that horse enough yet.

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

[schillingouttheks]

Reminds me of that scene in Me, Myself, and Irene when he tries to put the cow out of its misery in so many damn ways because it just doesn't die.

[Dipre]

Reminds me of that scene in Me, Myself, and Irene when he tries to put the cow out of its misery in so many damn ways because it just doesn't die.

Jim Carrey is awesome.

On a side note, how about exploring that deal again in the offseason, except for the fact that we deal half the farm for Felix and Adrian Gonzales, make V-Tek the full-time back up, and have the following lineup:

Ells
Pedey
Youk
Gonzales
Martinez
Papi
Bay
Drew
Lowrie

Yikes!

With a rotaion of:

Beckett
Hernandez
Lester
Wakefield
Whoever's left of Tazawa/Bowden/Clay

[Spudboy]

Reminds me of that scene in Me, Myself, and Irene when he tries to put the cow out of its misery in so many damn ways because it just doesn't die.

That was gruesome.

Lots of good scenes in that movie.

"I thought you could read German!"

"I said I could speak the motherfucker, not read it!"

[BSN07]

Jim Carrey is awesome.

On a side note, how about exploring that deal again in the offseason, except for the fact that we deal half the farm for Felix and Adrian Gonzales, make V-Tek the full-time back up, and have the following lineup:

Ells
Pedey
Youk
Gonzales
Papi
Martinez
Bay
Drew
Lowrie

Yikes!

With a rotaion of:

Beckett
Hernandez
Lester
Wakefield
Whoever's left of Tazawa/Bowden/Clay

Yes please....drool.....

[Dojji]

Jim Carrey is awesome.

On a side note, how about exploring that deal again in the offseason, except for the fact that we deal half the farm for Felix and Adrian Gonzales, make V-Tek the full-time back up, and have the following lineup:

Ells
Pedey
Youk
Gonzales
Martinez
Papi
Bay
Drew
Lowrie

Yikes!

With a rotaion of:

Beckett
Hernandez
Lester
Wakefield
Whoever's left of Tazawa/Bowden/Clay

Pretty good (assiming you meant VMart instead of VTek) and I could go along with it, but since both King Felix and Gonzalez are low salary players I imagine we would sign a FA starter instead of trusting to the survivors of the purge.

I believe Erik Bedard is a FA. I'm not sure the M's will re-sign him, but if they don't, I wonder what the chances are of him signing cheap with us to redeem his value a la Brad Penny? We do have a reputation for helping injured pitchers stay healthy.

[BSN07]

Pretty good (assiming you meant VMart instead of VTek) and I could go along with it, but since both King Felix and Gonzalez are low salary players I imagine we would sign a FA starter instead of trusting to the survivors of the purge.

I believe Erik Bedard is a FA. I'm not sure the M's will re-sign him, but if they don't, I wonder what the chances are of him signing cheap with us to redeem his value a la Brad Penny? We do have a reputation for helping injured pitchers stay healthy.

I think they could bring back Tek next season if they wanted. Lowell isn't getting younger. Spelling him throughout the season will help his effectiveness. If he doesn't like it, tough titty. Ortiz could use some time off too. So there will still be plenty of AB's available for V-Mart. Keeping him in other positions to save his legs will be helpful too.

Bedard is a interesting proposition. It would seem to fit in the Sox yearly reclamation project. I doubt Seattle takes the chance to offer him arb for fear he might except it.

[TheKilo]

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c367/bosstones58/BeatDeadHorse.gif

[BSN07]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c367/bosstones58/BeatDeadHorse.gif

:lol::lol:

I hadn't seen that one before. That one is good.

[superdeluxe]

From Geoff Baker of the Seattle times:




I'm told the Red Sox apparently approached the Mariners and first tried to do a Hernandez trade with Seattle exclusively. Boston wanted Hernandez and gave the Mariners a list of eight prospects, from which Seattle would be allowed to pick any five.

They included:

RHP Clay Buchholz
RHP Daniel Bard
RHP Justin Masterson
LHP Nick Hagadone
RHP Michael Bowden
LHP Felix Doubront
OF Josh Reddick
SS Yamaico Navarro

Seattle turned that down. But that was just the warm-up act to the blockbuster proposal that followed.

When the Mariners rebuffed the Red Sox and it became clear the two sides could not get a deal done on their own, Boston GM Theo Epstein apparently got on the phone to his longtime close pal. San Diego Padres GM Kevin Towers.

It has since come out that Epstein and Towers were discussing a trade that would send home run slugger Adrian Gonzalez to Boston. But wait. Apparently, Epstein wants Hernandez more than anybody, even Gonzalez.

So, the three teams start discussing a possible three-way deal with Seattle that would send Gonzalez to the Mariners, along with Buchholz and a couple of other Red Sox prospects.

The Red Sox would get Hernandez.

And the Padres would get Brandon Morrow, Phillippe Aumont and Carlos Triunfel from Seattle, along with a couple of other top Boston prospects.

A creative proposal, to say the least. And one that obviously would have blown away anything else at the July 31 deadline. Would have been the talk of future deadlines for years to come.

I tried to post a link, but I am too new I guess. Pretty interesting info, Lars Anderson was not on the list of prospects that the Sox was willing to give up apparently.

[BSN07]

You thought the Jake Peavy deal was a surprise? The Red Sox, Mariners and Padres discussed a trade that would have made the Peavy acquisition look like the Jason Hirsh deal, according to Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times. Baker hears that the Red Sox gave the Mariners the chance to choose five of the following players in exchange for Felix Hernandez:

* Clay Buchholz
* Daniel Bard
* Justin Masterson
* Nick Hagadone
* Michael Bowden
* Felix Doubront
* Josh Reddick
* Yamaico Navarro

The Mariners apparently turned down the deal, at which point the Padres became involved in discussions about a possible three-way trade. The Mariners would have received Adrian Gonzalez, Buchholz and prospects in the deal. They would have sent Felix to the Red Sox and dealt Brandon Morrow, Phillippe Aumont and Carlos Triunfel to the Padres, who would have received prospects from the Red Sox as well. In the end, Baker says the Mariners nixed the deal.


From Geoff Baker of the Seattle times:





I tried to post a link, but I am too new I guess. Pretty interesting info, Lars Anderson was not on the list of prospects that the Sox was willing to give up apparently.

[superdeluxe]

oh sorry!

[SoxSport]

The Mariners should have made the first deal. They should have taken Bard, Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson. Plus somebody else on the list. I don't believe they nixed that deal. I doubt Epstein would have offered that much. Bard was off the table for obvious reasons.

That deal of VMart for Masterson was a steal for Epstein.

[BSN07]

The Mariners should have made the first deal. They should have taken Bard, Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson. Plus somebody else on the list. I don't believe they nixed that deal. I doubt Epstein would have offered that much. Bard was off the table for obvious reasons.

That deal of VMart for Masterson was a steal for Epstein.

Theo covets the King

[Dipre]

Theo covets the King

I'm telling you, Felix Hernandez was born to pitch on the Red Sox.

He will be in our starting rotation before 2011.

You read it here first, folks.

[BSN07]

I'm telling you, Felix Hernandez was born to pitch on the Red Sox.

He will be in our starting rotation before 2011.

You read it here first, folks.

I believe example came out with it first. But I agree with you. It might be the deal of the off season.

[Gom]

I'm telling you, Felix Hernandez was born to pitch on the Red Sox.

He will be in our starting rotation before 2011.

You read it here first, folks.

He's Spanish. For that reason alone, I'd say he goes to the Mets.

[Mr Crunchy]

Theo wants Hernandez and I want to fuck Jessica Alba, we all got wants.
Hernandez is on this year and owned our asses but if theo didnt go all out for Roy Halliday he aint gettin all out on this guy and we aint getting a deal done via a waiverwire deal.

[BSN07]

Theo wants Hernandez and I want to fuck Jessica Alba, we all got wants.
Hernandez is on this year and owned our asses but if theo didnt go all out for Roy Halliday he aint gettin all out on this guy and we aint getting a deal done via a waiverwire deal.

It won't happen this season. Look for it to get interesting this off season though.

Felix is exactly the type of player/talent Theo will over pay for.

[WhiskeyBreath]

Theo wants Hernandez and I want to fuck Jessica Alba, we all got wants.
Hernandez is on this year and owned our asses but if theo didnt go all out for Roy Halliday he aint gettin all out on this guy and we aint getting a deal done via a waiverwire deal.

He just might. Felix is more valuable than Halladay so you never know.

[CrespoBlows]

He's Spanish. For that reason alone, I'd say he goes to the Mets.

ROFL

[Dojji]

ROFL

He is the kind of player Minaya likes. In his prime, hard throwing, expensive, with many innings on his arm.

[Dipre]

He's Spanish. For that reason alone, I'd say he goes to the Mets.

You mean spanish and arguably the pitcher with the best stuff in the Majors?

[BSN07]

LOL The Mets don't have the prospects. There system is thin.

[Dipre]

LOL The Mets don't have the prospects. There system is thin.

You're being generous.

Very generous.

[yankeessuck013]

Theo wants Hernandez and I want to fuck Jessica Alba, we all got wants.
Hernandez is on this year and owned our asses but if theo didnt go all out for Roy Halliday he aint gettin all out on this guy and we aint getting a deal done via a waiverwire deal.

Doc is 32, Felix is 23.

[jacksonianmarch]

Possible successor and heir to Josh Beckett.

Any reasonable price should be paid.


The Mariners wouldn't be as interested in Buchholz because what they want is 6 years of cost control on a high ceiling guy. And they're desperate for a decent 1B. Kelly and Anderson would be a good starting point from Seattle's perspective, I'm thinking. They'll want more, but those two will get you in the door. And I wouldn't worry about trading either of them because our core rotation would be young and excellent with Beckett, Hernandez, Lester, Daisuke, and Buchholz, and good pitching prospects come along with fair regularity, and if we lose Anderson, Youks still has a few good years and Rizzo's not that far behind.

For King Felix, it would be well more than Lars and Kelly. You might not have the pieces with Masterson and Hagadone gone. I am thinking Buchholz, Bowden, Kelly, and Anderson to start. It would be such a ridiculous package that I dont think it can be done.

[Dipre]

For King Felix, it would be well more than Lars and Kelly. You might not have the pieces with Masterson and Hagadone gone. I am thinking Buchholz, Bowden, Kelly, and Anderson to start. It would be such a ridiculous package that I dont think it can be done.

Thank you, Theo. :rolleyes:

[Dojji]

You're kidding, right? Masterson and Hagadone were by no means our best trading chips. We have no shortage of desirable trade pieces between Buchholz, Bowden, Bard, Reddick, Kalish, Exposito, Anderson, Kelly, and Tazawa, and that's just high ceiling prime youngsters in AA or above.

that's 9 major trading pieces any of which could headline a banner deal and of those only 2 (Bard and Reddick) are in any way difficult to replace in this system..

[SoxSport]

Keep in mind that there aren't many teams out there willing to put up $15-20M per year for an ace starter. Maybe NY, maybe LA, maybe Chicago. The big markets. Boston? They seem to prefer home-growns.Though Beckett and Pap will soon be up for extension. Eventually, you have to pay the piper.

[jacksonianmarch]

You're kidding, right? Masterson and Hagadone were by no means our best trading chips. We have no shortage of desirable trade pieces between Buchholz, Bowden, Bard, Reddick, Kalish, Exposito, Anderson, Kelly, and Tazawa, and that's just high ceiling prime youngsters in AA or above.

that's 9 major trading pieces any of which could headline a banner deal and of those only 2 (Bard and Reddick) are in any way difficult to replace in this system..

we are talking about a generational talent at 23 yrs old who is just starting to locate franchise stuff. This is a guy who you need two can't miss prospects for. And I am sorry, but the sox dont have 2 can't miss guys right now who arent locked up. The Yankees dont either unless they deal from their current MLB team. If Seattle dealt Felix right now, the return would be dumbfounding.

[Dojji]

Keep in mind that there aren't many teams out there willing to put up $15-20M per year for an ace starter. Maybe NY, maybe LA, maybe Chicago. The big markets. Boston? They seem to prefer home-growns.Though Beckett and Pap will soon be up for extension. Eventually, you have to pay the piper.

To lose a guy you only need one.

[example1]

we are talking about a generational talent at 23 yrs old who is just starting to locate franchise stuff. This is a guy who you need two can't miss prospects for. And I am sorry, but the sox dont have 2 can't miss guys right now who arent locked up. The Yankees dont either unless they deal from their current MLB team. If Seattle dealt Felix right now, the return would be dumbfounding.

Bullshit. Theo will save his best prospects for exactly this kind of deal. Not Cliff Lee, not Roy Halladay (obviously). You really think Buchholz, Bard, Westmoreland and Anderson wouldn't get this deal done? Really? #2 starter, closer, Sizemore-potential OF, high ceiling 1B.

What nobody seems to be arguing is that Felix will resign with the Mariners or that he isn't very, very talented. It is as plain as night and day. Just as Josh Beckett had limitless potential with his build and arm, Felix is in the same camp and then some.

ERA+ Progression:

age | IP | ERA | ERA + |
20 | 191.0 | 4.52 | 98 |
21 | 190.1 | 3.92 | 110 |
22 | 200.2 | 3.45 | 122 |
23 | 152 | 2.78 | 155 |

He's Josh Beckett with more command and better stuff at his age. He's been handled carefully and if the Sox can get him for 2 years or 1+ years then they can likely resign him to a huge contract. No need to negotiate, no need to compete with other teams. Teixeira-like deal and he couldn't possibly refuse it.

Theo has been willing to part with HUGE talent to get the guy he wants to build his franchise around. Felix is that guy. To get A-Rod he was willing to move Manny and Jon Lester (who they clearly thought was a very nice prospect). This might take more, but it would be more young talent, not current MLB players (except perhaps Bard).

[superdeluxe]

Bullshit. Theo will save his best prospects for exactly this kind of deal. Not Cliff Lee, not Roy Halladay (obviously). You really think Buchholz, Bard, Westmoreland and Anderson wouldn't get this deal done? Really? #2 starter, closer, Sizemore-potential OF, high ceiling 1B.

What nobody seems to be arguing is that Felix will resign with the Mariners or that he isn't very, very talented. It is as plain as night and day. Just as Josh Beckett had limitless potential with his build and arm, Felix is in the same camp and then some.



Theo has been willing to part with HUGE talent to get the guy he wants to build his franchise around. Felix is that guy. To get A-Rod he was willing to move Manny and Jon Lester (who they clearly thought was a very nice prospect). This might take more, but it would be more young talent, not current MLB players (except perhaps Bard).

One thing about this, the M's already have a lockdown closer that we control rights for several years, in Aardsma.

And this is not the bavasi era anymore. Jack Z likes to take back mlb ready/current players instead of just all prospects (Witness pitt/detroit trades).

[superdeluxe]

The Mariners should have made the first deal. They should have taken Bard, Buchholz, Bowden and Masterson. Plus somebody else on the list. I don't believe they nixed that deal. I doubt Epstein would have offered that much. Bard was off the table for obvious reasons.

That deal of VMart for Masterson was a steal for Epstein.

Really? a 86th, 98th prospect (baseball america top 100) and a #2-4 starter? Come on.

[TheKilo]

Aardsma a lock down closer? I stopped reading right there.

[Dipre]

Aardsma a lock down closer? I stopped reading right there.

You did the right thing, sir.

[superdeluxe]

Aardsma a lock down closer? I stopped reading right there.

25 out of 27 save opps, 1.56 era, I don't think we need a upgrade there.

[superdeluxe]

closers are a dime a dozen.

[TheKilo]

Fluke?

Believe me, Sox fans saw all they needed to of this guy last season.

[superdeluxe]

Fluke?

Believe me, Sox fans saw all they needed to of this guy last season.

Maybe fluke, maybe he has figured out his stuff? Who knows, I guess we will find out next year.

[superdeluxe]

Is Lowrie untouchable?

[Dipre]

Is Lowrie untouchable?

For the King?

No one's untouchable probably.

[superdeluxe]

Just in reading what M's fans want to get..and red sox fans want to give up..there seems to be a pretty big gap between those two. I am sure it will fall around somewhere in the middle.

[jacksonianmarch]

per mlbtraderumors.com the sox gave a list of 8-10 players to the M's and said they could have 5 of them. And that list had a ton of talent on it. The M's turned them down flat

[Coco's Disciples]

per mlbtraderumors.com the sox gave a list of 8-10 players to the M's and said they could have 5 of them. And that list had a ton of talent on it. The M's turned them down flat

Like 327 people have posted that.

[BSN07]

Keep in mind that there aren't many teams out there willing to put up $15-20M per year for an ace starter. Maybe NY, maybe LA, maybe Chicago. The big markets. Boston? They seem to prefer home-growns.Though Beckett and Pap will soon be up for extension. Eventually, you have to pay the piper.
Beckett will get extended this off season. Papelbon will be gone this off season or next.

we are talking about a generational talent at 23 yrs old who is just starting to locate franchise stuff. This is a guy who you need two can't miss prospects for. And I am sorry, but the sox dont have 2 can't miss guys right now who arent locked up. The Yankees dont either unless they deal from their current MLB team. If Seattle dealt Felix right now, the return would be dumbfounding.

Name the last high profile prospect to come up for the Sox and not work out.....Craig Hansen? The Red Sox are turning out quality players at a rampant pace.

[a700hitter]

Beckett will get extended this off season. Papelbon will be gone this off season or next.


Name the last high profile prospect to come up for the Sox and not work out.....Craig Hansen? The Red Sox are turning out quality players at a rampant pace.
Several top prospects have died on the vine in the minors and not made it to the majors. I would hope that the guys that get promoted to the majors can compete.

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a shit about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

[Dipre]

Several top prospects have died on the vine in the minors and not made it to the majors. I would hope that the guys that get promoted to the majors can compete.

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a shit about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

Sweet Jesus dude.

[a700hitter]

Sweet Jesus dude.
The Sox are playing the Yankees this week. Nothing else matters, especially not some wet dreams about the Hot Stove season. :D

[Dipre]

The Sox are playing the Yankees this week. Nothing else matters, especially not some wet dreams about the Hot Stove season. :D

They shall get their asses kicked again.

[example1]

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a shit about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

I can understand wanting to see McCartney rather than one of the 162 games the Sox play this year. However, I really can't believe you would avoid watching a Sox-Yankees game no matter who is the starter if you didn't have anything else to do. I've seen you here at much less interesting--or hopeful--match ups. You are experienced enough to know that anything can happen in those games.


I think that their attempt to land Hernandez speaks to the type of player that Theo would be willing to "sell the farm" for (not Halladay), and that it is interesting in that respect alone for those of us who try to understand the philosophy behind the decision making of this FO.

Any team with as much organizational and current MLB strength as the Red Sox would be willing to hold their prospects at to get a Pedro-potential starter at such a young age. They still have a great chance to win this year and will be competitive for a long time.

If they got Halladay and won the World Series would you give them a pass at the next trade deadline, or the one after that, if they decided not to overpay for a player?

[a700hitter]

I can understand wanting to see McCartney rather than one of the 162 games the Sox play this year. However, I really can't believe you would avoid watching a Sox-Yankees game no matter who is the starter if you didn't have anything else to do. I've seen you here at much less interesting--or hopeful--match ups. You are experienced enough to know that anything can happen in those games.


I think that their attempt to land Hernandez speaks to the type of player that Theo would be willing to "sell the farm" for (not Halladay), and that it is interesting in that respect alone for those of us who try to understand the philosophy behind the decision making of this FO.

Any team with as much organizational and current MLB strength as the Red Sox would be willing to hold their prospects at to get a Pedro-potential starter at such a young age. They still have a great chance to win this year and will be competitive for a long time.

If they got Halladay and won the World Series would you give them a pass at the next trade deadline, or the one after that, if they decided not to overpay for a player?Cliff Lee went relatively cheap. We didn't get what we needed most-- a starting pitcher. Theo did his bullshit menage a trois three way deadline trade which flops more often than it succeeds. He came up empty. If we got Halladay this year and won the series, no I would not give him a pass the following year. Why do you assume that criticizing a particular move or non-move is a condemnation of Theo. On balance the whole FO has done a good job over the last several seasons, but they could've done much better at this trading deadline. I didn't grade them an F. I gave them a B-, which in retrospect was too high. The B- was the result of getting a big name, but I don't think the essential needs were addressed. I'd go with a C+.

As for not wanting to see Smoltz vs. the Yankees, I would have taken my wife to the concert regardless of the matchup. However, I'm glad that I will be missing Smoltz' game if I had to mis one of the games. I have a very bad feeling about that game and teh CC vs. Buchholz matchup.

[TheKilo]

Lee went for four players, all of which have the potential to make Cleveland's MLB roster.

[162watch]

Felix is just a red sox type of player...he suits Boston in a great way...plus he is a wonderful addition. Who wouldnt want him on the Bo-Sox.

[a700hitter]

Felix is just a red sox type of player...he suits Boston in a great way...plus he is a wonderful addition. Who wouldnt want him on the Bo-Sox.No one.

[jacksonianmarch]

Me!

[jacksonianmarch]

Beckett will get extended this off season. Papelbon will be gone this off season or next.


Name the last high profile prospect to come up for the Sox and not work out.....Craig Hansen? The Red Sox are turning out quality players at a rampant pace.

how bout Buchholz thus far. And Masterson wasnt lighting the world on fire

[Keeper]

Brandon Moss is another one.

[jacksonianmarch]

And I am not knocking the sox development team. But not everything they touch turns to gold

[162watch]

No one.
Ok...Felix has a .750 win loss percentage in 2009 as well as 2.78 ERA...he is a fantastic all star....

[SCM33]

Several top prospects have died on the vine in the minors and not made it to the majors. I would hope that the guys that get promoted to the majors can compete.

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a shit about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

I echo these statements. Who fucking cares if they wanted him, they didnt get him.

[example1]

Cliff Lee went relatively cheap. We didn't get what we needed most-- a starting pitcher. Theo did his bullshit menage a trois three way deadline trade which flops more often than it succeeds. He came up empty. If we got Halladay this year and won the series, no I would not give him a pass the following year. Why do you assume that criticizing a particular move or non-move is a condemnation of Theo. On balance the whole FO has done a good job over the last several seasons, but they could've done much better at this trading deadline. I didn't grade them an F. I gave them a B-, which in retrospect was too high. The B- was the result of getting a big name, but I don't think the essential needs were addressed. I'd go with a C+.


I don't know why I would see you criticizing particular moves as condemnation of Theo... other than you aiming the crosshairs directly at him.

How could they have done much better at this trade deadline, AND potentially be involved in a deal for someone like Felix in the future? Similarily, how can you demand that they go for it now, and say that you won't give them a pass in the future if they do that? You want it both ways: win now, win in the future. Can you imagine where they would have been if they had followed your advice and traded Youkilis for Todd Helton a few years ago when they were struggling? Let's check in in 3 years when they are still competitive and Roy Halladay is a fading veteran and the Sox farm system is paying off dividends for the Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yankees have proven you can try to win now at all costs and then throw money at acute issues. It hasnt translated to world titles, but it has translated into a long sustained playoff run. THat is the only way to guarantee winning now and later. I think a700 is hoping for the sox to empty the bank on a guy who would be around for awhile without completely fucking up the core of the team.

[Dipre]

The Yankees have proven you can try to win now at all costs and then throw money at acute issues. It hasnt translated to world titles, but it has translated into a long sustained playoff run. THat is the only way to guarantee winning now and later. I think a700 is hoping for the sox to empty the bank on a guy who would be around for awhile without completely fucking up the core of the team.

The reason you play baseball is to win titles, not make the playoffs.

Besides that, that philosophy is flawed.

If that's seriously your opinion, you're even more dense than i thought.

[jacksonianmarch]

you improve your chances of winning a title if you make the playoffs on a consistent basis. Cmon man, dont be dumb. I dont like how the team has operated and would not ascribe to that philosophy if I was a GM, but you cannot argue with results. 4 titles, 6 world series appearances, 13 consecutive seasons in the playoffs.

[Dojji]

you improve your chances of winning a title if you make the playoffs on a consistent basis.

Actually I agree. The Yankees are more blighted by their inability to assemble a consistent pitching staff than their spending policies.

[Dipre]

you improve your chances of winning a title if you make the playoffs on a consistent basis. Cmon man, dont be dumb. I dont like how the team has operated and would not ascribe to that philosophy if I was a GM, but you cannot argue with results. 4 titles, 6 world series appearances, 13 consecutive seasons in the playoffs.


Actually I agree. The Yankees are more blighted by their inability to assemble a consistent pitching staff than their spending policies.


The Yankee dynasty of the 90's combined money AND homegrown talent.

The problem with throwing money at holes is the fact that you usually get players either past their prime, someone who will take time to adjust to a new organization, or a number of other problems that cannot be identified until after the player is an integral part of the team and has a contract you can't dump easily.

See: Lugo, Julio; Giambi, Jason ; Pavano, Carl.

Cmon man dont be dumb, you know throwing money at problems fixes little.

The fact that Doiji agrees with you further solidifies my point.

[example1]

The Yankees have proven you can try to win now at all costs and then throw money at acute issues. It hasnt translated to world titles, but it has translated into a long sustained playoff run. THat is the only way to guarantee winning now and later. I think a700 is hoping for the sox to empty the bank on a guy who would be around for awhile without completely fucking up the core of the team.

I think you're overstating it a bit by saying that's the only way to guarantee winning now and later. Instead of throwing money at problems you can throw prospects at problems to get players you want even more than the best available free agents.

So far the Yankees have given A-Rod something like $120m and he has won ZERO titles for them. Giambi came and went with no titles, as did Abreu and Shefffield, recent versions of Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens.

The Yankees have a great club and they clearly put out a good product for their fans. I just think that Sox fans are being myopic to think that the Yankee method is the only way that can produce winning results. Yes, free agents are essential to any good team, but so are home-grown talents, a deep farm system/bench, a good bullpen, etc.,

We're all hoping the Sox could get someone who could be around for awhile without fucking up the core of their team. Victor Martinez is a great pickup in that respect. He may take over for Tek after Tek is done, he may move into Lowell's spot on the roster if Lowell leaves--assuming they could resign VMart.

I just don't see how anyone could be overly disappointed with this Sox team over the past 6 years or so. The Yankees have their flaws DESPITE all the money they spend and they have had flaws consistently, year after year. No team is perfect but the Sox and Yanks are both very, very good franchises.

[a700hitter]

I don't know why I would see you criticizing particular moves as condemnation of Theo... other than you aiming the crosshairs directly at him. I evaluate each acquisition/move on its merits. As I have said several times, I think the FO on balance has done an excellent job over the last several years. Does this sound like condemnation to you? Do you think Theo and Co. have been perfect? I don't and I can point to several screw ups that Theo has himself acknowledged. This year I think he could have done much better at the trading deadline.


IHow could they have done much better at this trade deadline, AND potentially be involved in a deal for someone like Felix in the future? He could have addressed this teams needs better. Cliff Lee would have been nice. Halladay for a package that would have included Buchholz (who inches away from prospect status to bust with each appearance) would have been nice. O'Cab for MIF depth would have been nice. A solid OF (no names) instead of a third first baseman (who will act as a mannequin) would have been nice. If he had done one or more of those things, he would have done a better job.

This whole "potentially be involved in a deal for someone like Felix in the future" is a pipe dream. He expressed interest in Felix and didn't get him. He doesn't have any right of first refusal, and his expression of interest didn't in any way improve his chances of obtaining Felix in the future.

I Similarily, how can you demand that they go for it now, and say that you won't give them a pass in the future if they do that? You want it both ways: win now, win in the future. .What are you talking about? You asked whether I would give Theo a pass next year if he got Halladay this year? My answer was "no". I evaluate and form an opinion on each move and transaction as it occurs in real time. Past moves have little or no relevance. That wouldn't even make sense. Why would I be less harsh about a bad deal because he had made good deals in past years? I wouldn't hold back praise for a good deal because of past bad deals. I don't what point you are trying to make.

[Dojji]

The Yankee dynasty of the 90's combined money AND homegrown talent.

The problem with throwing money at holes is the fact that you usually get players either past their prime, someone who will take time to adjust to a new organization, or a number of other problems that cannot be identified until after the player is an integral part of the team and has a contract you can't dump easily.

See: Lugo, Julio; Giambi, Jason ; Pavano, Carl.

Cmon man dont be dumb, you know throwing money at problems fixes little.

The fact that Doiji agrees with you further solidifies my point.

Kinda depends on how you do it. You can't just do that, and that's a big problem with what the Yankees are doing, but spending to build your core can be done as long as that's not ALL you are doing.

[example1]

What are you talking about? You asked whether I would give Theo a pass next year if he got Halladay this year? My answer was "no". I evaluate and form an opinion on each move and transaction as it occurs in real time. Past moves have little or no relevance. That wouldn't even make sense. Why would I be less harsh about a bad deal because he had made good deals in past years? I wouldn't hold back praise for a good deal because of past bad deals. I don't what point you are trying to make.

My point is that you will never be satisfied. The Red Sox have won 2 World Series since 2004. If they were to get Halladay this year and win, but lose next year and the year after, you would be bitching and moaning if they had the audacity to try to preserve/rebuild their farm system instead of trading for the next bit piece at the trade deadline in 2010 or 2011. You always want them to trade their talent for some known quantity to address some hole on the team that may or may not exist or which may or may not ultimately have a long term impact.

[a700hitter]

My point is that you will never be satisfied. The Red Sox have won 2 World Series since 2004. If they were to get Halladay this year and win, but lose next year and the year after, you would be bitching and moaning if they had the audacity to try to preserve/rebuild their farm system instead of trading for the next bit piece at the trade deadline in 2010 or 2011. You always want them to trade their talent for some known quantity to address some hole on the team that may or may not exist or which may or may not ultimately have a long term impact.You see that's the difference between you and me. You live in a future where we get Felix and all of our prospects become Red Sox stars. Now I learn that your future includes me bitching and moaning when the Sox are rebuilding. :lol: I live in the moment or at least in the current season. Good drafts are nice. I realize that some of the players will play for the Sox and some will be stars. Most will not make the Sox. I don't know enough to know which are which and neither do you with any degree of accuracy. I hope they keep the best ones and trade the rest for other talent. When the team is good, I am happy. When they are not good, I am not happy. Is there a problem with that?

[Dipre]

Kinda depends on how you do it. You can't just do that, and that's a big problem with what the Yankees are doing, but spending to build your core can be done as long as that's not ALL you are doing.

*sigh*

Roster flexibility.

If you keep throwing big money at big-ticket stars, if a couple of them flunk, (and they will), then you've set your roster up to be filled with immovable, non-productive pieces.

See: Yankess, New York.

[example1]

You see that's the difference between you and me. You live in a future where we get Felix and all of our prospects become Red Sox stars. Now I learn that your future includes me bitching and moaning when the Sox are rebuilding. :lol:

They don't need to rebuild if they don't sell all their younger players for a guy with 1.5 years left on his deal and who is entering his mid-30s. Not selling their young players means they shouldn't have to rebuild.



I live in the moment or at least in the current season. Good drafts are nice. I realize that some of the players will play for the Sox and some will be stars. Most will not make the Sox. I don't know enough to know which are which and neither do you with any degree of accuracy. I hope they keep the best ones and trade the rest for other talent.


1) Their drafts now are really quite different from the decades that you have been following the team. They are much more aggressive and are kind of breaking the mold in terms of being willing to pay above slot for good players. I expect more out of their drafts now than anyone should have reasonably expected in the past.

2) Whether you or I know whether these guys turn into stars or not, the Sox FO should have the clearest idea. Given their ability to project the future utility of guys like Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, Delcarmen, etc., I'd say they know their stuff.

3) When you look at actual metrics like WARP (which I know you could care less about, but which others do care about) it is quite probable that someone like Buchholz will be more valuable to this team over 6 years than Halladay would be for 1.4. Bard probably projects to be more valuable over 6 years than Halladay over 1.4 too. Who else would you have added to get Halladay? 6 years of Reddick?



When the team is good, I am happy. When they are not good, I am not happy. Is there a problem with that?

The problem is that you don't do a very good job of evaluating when your team is good.

How you could say this team isn't "good" is beyond me. They have the 3rd best record in the AL, would have the second best record in the NL, and have the 4th best record in MLB.

They have the best run differential (+94) in the league, and the second best in all of baseball.

They are 6th in MLB in runs allowed (1st in the AL)
They are 4th in MLB in runs scored (4th in the AL)

You are the grass-is-greener type, but I don't know whose grass you are looking at. In terms of having a "good" team and being happy, you should be happy.

I care about this team being good now too. I watch all the games, I care. But they are good, and they will continue to be good because people who care about the present and the future run this team.

Hence the addition of someone like Victor Martinez. To you, a non deal. Something not even worthy of excitement. To me, a #3 batter, a switch hitting catcher, 3 time all star who can help this team in many, many ways.

[BSN07]

The problem is that you don't do a very good job of evaluating when your team is good.

How you could say this team isn't "good" is beyond me. They have the 3rd best record in the AL, would have the second best record in the NL, and have the 4th best record in MLB.

Because the Yanks are in 1st place... Ahhhh

[jacksonianmarch]

Sox are 8-9 since the break, so I can see why he's frustrated.

Also, the red sox starters this season have the following numbers.

46-31 4.54ERA 628IP 678H 317ER 203BB 529K 1.40WHIP. Most of those numbers (aside from K's) sit right in the middle of the majors with the yankees. But where the sox have had the biggest trouble is when a pitcher other than Lester or Beckett takes the hill. Here are the numbers of those guys...

24-20 5.38ERA 345IP 418H 206ER 116BB 239K 1.55WHIP. That is a massive dropoff from the top two to your 3-5. That is not something that will win.

[Rdsxmbnt]

That is not something that will win.

Well it has 55% of the time

[jacksonianmarch]

For comparison...

Yankees starters
42-28 617.2IP 630H 313ER 245BB 488K 4.56ERA 1.42WHIP

Yankees starters without CC and Burnett
21-16 330.2IP 368H 188ER 137BB 257K 5.11ERA 1.53WHIP

the numbers outside of the top 2 on both teams are close, but the yankees have the better WHIP and the significantly better ERA. That being said, those numbers are skewed by a guy who isnt even there anymore in Wang, whose ERA of 11.38 and WHIP of 2.18 over 34 innings skew the numbers significantly.

[a700hitter]

They don't need to rebuild if they don't sell all their younger players for a guy with 1.5 years left on his deal and who is entering his mid-30s. Not selling their young players means they shouldn't have to rebuild.First of all, 32 is not mid-30's. His current contract would be up at age 33. There would have been no need for either Buchholz or Bowden if we got Halladay. Neither of them would have cracked that staff with Dice k and Wakefield being the 4th and 5th guys. By 2011, the next crop of prospect pitchers would have been knocking on the major league door and the FO would either give them a shot or package them for an established star. So, if done properly, getting Halladay would not cause the team to have to rebuild in a couple of years.



1) Their drafts now are really quite different from the decades that you have been following the team. They are much more aggressive and are kind of breaking the mold in terms of being willing to pay above slot for good players. I expect more out of their drafts now than anyone should have reasonably expected in the past.

2) Whether you or I know whether these guys turn into stars or not, the Sox FO should have the clearest idea. Given their ability to project the future utility of guys like Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, Delcarmen, etc., I'd say they know their stuff.Yeah, okay. I don't think that I have disputed that.


3) When you look at actual metrics like WARP (which I know you could care less about, but which others do care about) it is quite probable that someone like Buchholz will be more valuable to this team over 6 years than Halladay would be for 1.4. Bard probably projects to be more valuable over 6 years than Halladay over 1.4 too. Who else would you have added to get Halladay? 6 years of Reddick? When comparing financial value, payments that will be received in the future get discounted to provide a present value of those payments. The time value of money has to be taken into account. In my line of work, I deal with actuaries who have to price all sorts of financial products. It's a very precise mathematical science. If they make a mistake it a can cost billions of dollars in lost business opportunities or actual losses on the products sold. They don't have the luxury of erring too high, because the product would be non-competitive. And they can't err on the low side or the Company would suffer financial loss. I have a deep appreciation for their skill. I don't know about WARP projections, but if they don't get discounted for a present value, then I don't agree that it provides an apples to apples comparison, and I don't know if I have much confidence in the accuracy of the assumptions necessary to provide a reliable outcome. In other words, Cliff Lee makes the Phillies a much better team today, but whether those prospects pay off for the Indians... well, that is very speculative.


The problem is that you don't do a very good job of evaluating when your team is good.

How you could say this team isn't "good" is beyond me. They have the 3rd best record in the AL, would have the second best record in the NL, and have the 4th best record in MLB.

They have the best run differential (+94) in the league, and the second best in all of baseball.

They are 6th in MLB in runs allowed (1st in the AL)
They are 4th in MLB in runs scored (4th in the AL)

You are the grass-is-greener type, but I don't know whose grass you are looking at. In terms of having a "good" team and being happy, you should be happy.Boy, you are presumptuous aren't you. Did I ever say that this team is not good? It is a very talented team, but in my opinion it could be better. You are a rose-colored optimist. I am not. I see weaknesses in every team and I express my opinion about those weaknesses. It seems that unless I like every move that the Red Sox make and if I am not thrilled about every raw green kid that gets called up then you are not happy.


I care about this team being good now too. I watch all the games, I care. But they are good, and they will continue to be good because people who care about the present and the future run this team.So, will you still be happy if Tampa spanks us tonight and the Yankees beat us up over the weekend? I will not be happy.


Hence the addition of someone like Victor Martinez. To you, a non deal. Something not even worthy of excitement. To me, a #3 batter, a switch hitting catcher, 3 time all star who can help this team in many, many ways.I never said it was a non-event. He will help the offense a great deal if he takes Varitek's spot, but that is not how Tito is using him. I said that there were more pressing more critical needs that needed to be addressed that were not addressed.

[Dipre]

For comparison...

Yankees starters
42-28 617.2IP 630H 313ER 245BB 488K 4.56ERA 1.42WHIP

Yankees starters without CC and Burnett
21-16 330.2IP 368H 188ER 137BB 257K 5.11ERA 1.53WHIP

the numbers outside of the top 2 on both teams are close, but the yankees have the better WHIP and the significantly better ERA. That being said, those numbers are skewed by a guy who isnt even there anymore in Wang, whose ERA of 11.38 and WHIP of 2.18 over 34 innings skew the numbers significantly.

Dice-K says hello, troll.

[example1]

First of all, 32 is not mid-30's. His current contract would be up at age 33. There would have been no need for either Buchholz or Bowden if we got Halladay. Neither of them would have cracked that staff with Dice k and Wakefield being the 4th and 5th guys. By 2011, the next crop of prospect pitchers would have been knocking on the major league door and the FO would either give them a shot or package them for an established star. So, if done properly, getting Halladay would not cause the team to have to rebuild in a couple of years.

Buchholz is the best prospect this team has had in a long time. His value to other teams is hith. There's reason to believe he coudl be used to land someone like Felix Hernandez or Adrian Gonzalez (signed to long deal), both of whom would provide this team a similarily longterm answer at key positions. Halladay is a short term solution who costs not only $15m, but also the best prospects in the system in Buchholz + Bard + ???.

I would have been happy either way, honestly. I think getting Halladay would undoubtedly have helped this year's team, but this team is in a great position as is and gets a payoff in other areas by keeping Bard and Buchholz. My assumption is that the FO has found a very accurate and beneficial way of analyzing this type of trade--they aren't doing it because they have a foolish overprojection of their talent or overprojection of the potential value of that talent.

Jon Lester has paid off well and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Sox FO person who thinks Lester had better stuff at the same age.



When comparing financial value, payments that will be received in the future get discounted to provide a present value of those payments.


Even with discounted values given for the length of player production, do you think that Buchholz averaging between 2-3 WARP per season and Halladay getting probably 9-10 WARP over the length of his contract are equal for this team? When I multiply 2 x 6 I get 12, so conservatively their value might be equal. This doesn't count Bard. This doesn't count cost, just how many wins will they give this team over the course of their contracts.

Of course, if Buchholz is able to put together ONE season like Lester's last year then he'll likely surpass Halladay singlehandedly in 2 seasons.





Boy, you are presumptuous aren't you. Did I ever say that this team is not good? It is a very talented team, but in my opinion it could be better. You are a rose-colored optimist. I am not. I see weaknesses in every team and I express my opinion about those weaknesses.

Presumptuous? You said: "When the team is good, I am happy. When they are not good, I am not happy." while you were complaining about them and talking about rather being at a concert than watching the Sox get crushed by the Yankees.

I took that to mean that you weren't happy, and I assumed your comment was commenting on that discontent. I guess everything is fine then, you're happy.



It seems that unless I like every move that the Red Sox make and if I am not thrilled about every raw green kid that gets called up then you are not happy.


Which "raw green kid" have you ever been thrilled about?


So, will you still be happy if Tampa spanks us tonight and the Yankees beat us up over the weekend? I will not be happy.

I will temporarily be unhappy, but I have faith that this team has many very positive things coming up for it in the future, and will be happy again soon.

[a700hitter]

Presumptuous? You said: "When the team is good, I am happy. When they are not good, I am not happy." while you were complaining about them and talking about rather being at a concert than watching the Sox get crushed by the Yankees.

I took that to mean that you weren't happy, and I assumed your comment was commenting on that discontent. I guess everything is fine then, you're happy.
We are a good team, but the Yankees are better. The FO should have addressed that gap in a better way at the deadline. Unfortunately for us Tampa is in our division and they are very good too.


Which "raw green kid" have you ever been thrilled about?First of all, a raw kid should never be brought to a veteran laden team with the resources of the Red Sox. Any prospect should be seasoned enough that he will have a chance to succeed. That being said, I've liked Papelbon, Ellsbury and Lowrie tight from the get go. I get frustrated when they make rookie mistakes, but I could certainly see that they each had excellent tools. Other prospects like Pedroia I thought were over-rated. I thought Pedroia had the possibility of being a solid starter (Loretta-like) for 4-5 years. Did I dislike him? No. I always liked Moss who I followed since 2004 or 5. I get annoyed when a kid is brought up in crucial situations long before he is ready. That shows a lack of preparedness by the FO. I like the kid. I root for the kid,but it is unfair to expect the kid to perform at that level without proper preparation and experience. So, again, I don't know what you are talking about? Was I supposed to get all giddy about Reddick? I saw him in ST and saw that he had plus arm, speed and bat, but he was not ready. We should have had a seasoned bench guy to step in. In his first big game, Reddick K'd 4 times. He was completely overmatched. It was unfair to the kid and the team.

[a700hitter]

Buchholz is the best prospect this team has had in a long time. His value to other teams is hith. There's reason to believe he coudl be used to land someone like Felix Hernandez or Adrian Gonzalez (signed to long deal), both of whom would provide this team a similarily longterm answer at key positions. Halladay is a short term solution who costs not only $15m, but also the best prospects in the system in Buchholz + Bard + ???.
I guess the FO is so confident in Buchholz that they felt it was necessary to acquire Paul Byrd?

[Rdsxmbnt]

I guess the FO is so confident in Buchholz that they felt it was necessary to acquire Paul Byrd?

Maybe they aren't confident in Penny or Smoltz? :rolleyes:

[a700hitter]

Maybe they aren't confident in Penny or Smoltz? :rolleyes:Buchholz would be the guy that goes back to the minors. He hasn't shown anything to keep him here. I dread his Saturday start. I'm praying for heavy rain.

[Dipre]

Buchholz would be the guy that goes back to the minors. He hasn't shown anything to keep him here. I dread his Saturday start. I'm praying for heavy rain.

Tired.

Your act is.

I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but seriously dude.

[BoSox21]

I think the Byrd signing means there's now an official timetable for how long left Smoltz has to show something or they're having less and less confidence Dice-K or Wakefield will be back this year

[Rdsxmbnt]

Buchholz would be the guy that goes back to the minors. He hasn't shown anything to keep him here. I dread his Saturday start. I'm praying for heavy rain.

Buchholz has had two pretty solid starts and a pair of stinkers, which is more than I can say about Smoltz.

[CrespoBlows]

Buchholz has had two pretty solid starts and a pair of stinkers, which is more than I can say about Smoltz.

Which one of his starts was solid?

[redsoxrules]

Buchholz has had two pretty solid starts and a pair of stinkers, which is more than I can say about Smoltz.

2 solid starts? explain

[Dipre]

Which one of his starts was solid?

First start.

@ Tor 5.2 IP 1 ER 3K.

[CrespoBlows]

First start.

@ Tor 5.2 IP 1 ER 3K.

3 BB

[BoSox21]

which is what made it solid as opposed to great

[Keeper]

King Felix would have been a perfect fit. Ideally, you'd like at least three reliable starters come playoff time. But the '01 Diamondbacks proved you can win it all with two reliable starters and Miguel Batista. Lester and Beckett aren't Schilling and Johnson, but they've shown they can elevate their game during the postseason. Now, all the Sox need is someone to emerge to become their Miguel Batista.

[a700hitter]

Tired.

Your act is.

I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but seriously dude.Then don't be a dick. Are you looking forward to Buchholz start against the Yankees? Have his starts this season given you reason for optimism. The kid has talent. When he is on, his changeup is extremely deceptive to the batter, but he still has some major issues to work out at the major league level before he should be in the rotation. In the olden days, a pitcher worked out those issues in the major league bullpen, which is probably where he belongs. They are throwing him to the wolves by handing him the ball every 5th day. Is there something tired about that opinion.

BTW You never took my bet for the case of El Presidente. Before Drew tweaked his groin or vagina or whatever, you predicted that the Sox would DL Lowell. I responded that Drew would see the DL before Lowell and wagered a case of your favorite beer. I never heard from you about it.

[BSN07]

I think Buchholz will get a few more starts before he might be sent to the BP. They might give him until the rosters expand. Then the Sox should be getting Dice-K,Wake(probably before then), Bowden, Byrd to all make some Septemeber starts.

[Keeper]

In the olden days, a pitcher worked out those issues in the major league bullpen, which is probably where he belongs.

If the Sox weren't so desperate to find another reliable starter, I would agree with this move 100%.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Which one of his starts was solid?

First one vs. TOR and 3rd one vs. OAK

[Dipre]

Then don't be a dick. Are you looking forward to Buchholz start against the Yankees? Have his starts this season given you reason for optimism. The kid has talent. When he is on, his changeup is extremely deceptive to the batter, but he still has some major issues to work out at the major league level before he should be in the rotation. In the olden days, a pitcher worked out those issues in the major league bullpen, which is probably where he belongs. They are throwing him to the wolves by handing him the ball every 5th day. Is there something tired about that opinion.

BTW You never took my bet for the case of El Presidente. Before Drew tweaked his groin or vagina or whatever, you predicted that the Sox would DL Lowell. I responded that Drew would see the DL before Lowell and wagered a case of your favorite beer. I never heard from you about it.

Well seems like i owe you some Presidente.

Drat.

[a700hitter]

Well seems like i owe you some Presidente.

Drat.Not yet. Drew isn't on the DL is he?

[a700hitter]

First one vs. TOR and 3rd one vs. OAK9 hits and 2 BBs in 5.2 inn. Not so good. That's a WHIP of almost 2.

[Dipre]

Not yet. Drew isn't on the DL is he?

Drew hits the DL in 5....4...3....2...1......

[a700hitter]

Drew hits the DL in 5....4...3....2...1......Damn! And you think that I am pessimistic.

[Dipre]

Damn! And you think that I am pessimistic.

Lol don't go there, Mr. Swallowed his tongue 'cause Rocco went on the DL.

[a700hitter]

Lol don't go there, Mr. Swallowed his tongue 'cause Rocco went on the DL.There worst OF that I ever saw assembled by the Red Sox was Daubach LF Pride CF and Frye RF.

I had tickets for that game. When I saw the lineup, all I could do was shake my head. I said, we've come a long way from Rice, Lynn, and Evans with Yaz and Carbo and Benitez.

Daubach was a 1B, Frye a second baseman and the only real OFer who was responsible for directing traffic was Pride and he was deaf. There could have been a real trainwreck that night.

[Paradisecity]

Maybe these last few weeks will convince the Yawkey Way Brain Trust that showing up at Wal Mart and buying a half dozen items that may break in a week isn't as good as going to Bed Bath and Beyond and buying two useful items that you need.

Christ.

[Dipre]

There worst OF that I ever saw assembled by the Red Sox was Daubach LF Pride CF and Frye RF.

I had tickets for that game. When I saw the lineup, all I could do was shake my head. I said, we've come a long way from Rice, Lynn, and Evans with Yaz and Carbo and Benitez.

Daubach was a 1B, Frye a second baseman and the only real OFer who was responsible for directing traffic was Pride and he was deaf. There could have been a real trainwreck that night.

Well we've got two darn good OFs an Youk tonight.

What's the worst that could happen?

This could even work in our favor with everyone trying to hit to Left.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jacksonianmarch]

Maybe these last few weeks will convince the Yawkey Way Brain Trust that showing up at Wal Mart and buying a half dozen items that may break in a week isn't as good as going to Bed Bath and Beyond and buying two useful items that you need.

Christ.

I don't know. I don't know if we'll have enough time.

[Coco's Disciples]

I don't know. I don't know if we'll have enough time.

It should be a pretty nice little Saturday.

[jacksonianmarch]

OK, you know what? You know what? Gimme that thing! I'll do one, do one.

[BoSox21]

once it hits your lips, it's so good

[SoxSport]

Somebody said "in the old days" young pitchers worked their way into the starting rotation from the bullpen. That is still the practice with many ML teams--just not the Red Sox. They seem to think starters are starters and relievers are relievers. I would like to see Mazz et al discuss that. I wonder about a few things the Red Sox do with their pitching. Obviously, it isn't all bad. But you wonder about 100 pitches and out--sure to wear out a bullpen, and one inning per relief appearance. Why not 2 innings and fewer relievers per game?

What is happening right now is Beckett and Lester are being extended late into games to relieve the bullpen, because the other starters can't last 6 innings and the bullpen has been overworked. A case of the starters relieving the relievers. Houston, we have a problem.

[SoxSport]

Maybe these last few weeks will convince the Yawkey Way Brain Trust that showing up at Wal Mart and buying a half dozen items that may break in a week isn't as good as going to Bed Bath and Beyond and buying two useful items that you need.



That's what it looks like now. But they didn't figure their no.3 starter would be out the whole year when they did those signings pre-season. They signed a bunch of guys for the back of the rotation, figuring one or two would work out. None of those guys figured to be a no.3 starter. But that's what they're looking for now--and they don't have one. Did Epstein realize that before the trade deadline? Well, he does now. That should have been his priority, as some of us were saying.

[TedWilliams101]

That's what it looks like now. But they didn't figure their no.3 starter would be out the whole year when they did those signings pre-season. They signed a bunch of guys for the back of the rotation, figuring one or two would work out. None of those guys figured to be a no.3 starter. But that's what they're looking for now--and they don't have one. Did Epstein realize that before the trade deadline? Well, he does now. That should have been his priority, as some of us were saying.

Yes. The reason myself and others wanted Halladay, Lee, or some other top notch pitcher (washburn, etc) so badly was because our rotation was terrible. The rest of the season has to go PERFECTLY for us to have a chance at winning it all (maybe even just the playoffs). Just remember, instead of having Smotlz (8+ERA), you would have one of the best pitchers in baseball. A farm is great, but you have to USE IT to win. Some times that means a trade.

And about the "building for the future" idea. I hate it. I'm a "in the moment" person, partially because the "Future" you are building for might never happen.

[Dipre]

Yes. The reason myself and others wanted Halladay, Lee, or some other top notch pitcher (washburn, etc) so badly was because our rotation was terrible. The rest of the season has to go PERFECTLY for us to have a chance at winning it all (maybe even just the playoffs). Just remember, instead of having Smotlz (8+ERA), you would have one of the best pitchers in baseball. A farm is great, but you have to USE IT to win. Some times that means a trade.

And about the "building for the future" idea. I hate it. I'm a "in the moment" person, partially because the "Future" you are building for might never happen.

*sigh*

Did Theo not make a hard enough push for Halladay in your opinion?

[jacksonianmarch]

*sigh*

Did Theo not make a hard enough push for Halladay in your opinion?

I dont think Halladay was an achievable goal for this deadline. I do think Lee and Washburn were.

[Dipre]

I dont think Halladay was an achievable goal for this deadline. I do think Lee and Washburn were.

Lee slipped between Theo's fingers because he was going so hard after Halladay and Hernandez, apparently.

[Dojji]

I'm not sure Lee wouldn't be lit up in the AL East. He's got a high-risk profile even without the talent he'd cost. He's better off in the NL.

[Dipre]

I'm not sure Lee wouldn't be lit up in the AL East. He's got a high-risk profile even without the talent he'd cost. He's better off in the NL.

He's still lightyerars better than anything we're trotting out there besides Beckett and Lester.

[Dojji]

He's still lightyerars better than anything we're trotting out there besides Beckett and Lester.

A lefty with a high h/9 has no business anywhere near the Green Monster. Even if the lefty-heavy Yanks might have trouble against him, the Rays would not.

[Dipre]

A lefty with a high h/9 has no business anywhere near the Green Monster.

So John Smoltz does?

[Dojji]

No, but at least he was a gamble that didn't cost us any talent. We would have had to pay a fair price for Lee. That combined with the higher than normal risk that the guy gets torched if he comes here, combined with being a GB pitcher with a mediocre infield defense, it all adds up to a guy I wasn't sure I wanted them to go hard after.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm not sure Lee wouldn't be lit up in the AL East. He's got a high-risk profile even without the talent he'd cost. He's better off in the NL.

Dojji, you do know he won the Cy Young last yr in the AL Central and was putting up solid numbers again prior to the deal. He is better off in the NL. Every pitcher is better off in the NL. That being said, he would have solidified the rotation something fierce behind Lester and Beckett.

[Dojji]

Dojji, you do know he won the Cy Young last yr in the AL Central and was putting up solid numbers again prior to the deal. He is better off in the NL. Every pitcher is better off in the NL. That being said, he would have solidified the rotation something fierce behind Lester and Beckett.

Sure, if a pitcher with an ERA in the mid 4's stabilizes this rotation he stabilizies it. He sure as heck wouldn't have dominated in Fenway Park. He .734 OPS against right in a park where righies DON'T have the Monster to tee off on.

[jacksonianmarch]

.734OPS isnt bad at all for a pitcher. And his ERA was 3.3 when he was traded. I am sorry Dojji, but Lee would have made this team 3-5 wins better.

[Dojji]

Agree to disagree I guess. I think that he was getting by on the margins in Cleveland and the higher level of competition in the AL East would have eaten him alive.

[a700hitter]

Yes. The reason myself and others wanted Halladay, Lee, or some other top notch pitcher (washburn, etc) so badly was because our rotation was terrible. The rest of the season has to go PERFECTLY for us to have a chance at winning it all (maybe even just the playoffs). Just remember, instead of having Smotlz (8+ERA), you would have one of the best pitchers in baseball. A farm is great, but you have to USE IT to win. Some times that means a trade.
They are in a position where every start by Lester and Beckett are must win games. It is unfair and unrealistic to expect that from them, but that's what is needed. The other three rotation slots are close to useless, despite all of our depth.:rolleyes:

[Dojji]

Mostly because Theo won't kick out the incumbents and fall back on that depth, even when it would be difficult for the depth to pitch worse than Smoltz and Penny.

[jacksonianmarch]

that depth is pretty much gone. Bowden is the last bastion of that "depth" and having 2 essentially rooks in the rotation down the stretch is suicide and he knows it

[Dojji]

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/t/junichi-tazawa.shtml

[jacksonianmarch]

Tazawa has been in AAA for what, 5 starts now? He is your depth down the stretch run? Cmon now.

[Dojji]

Tazawa has been in AAA for what, 5 starts now? He is your depth down the stretch run? Cmon now.

You seem to have a fundamental issue with the working definition of the word "depth." As depth goes, Tazawa is actually excellent. For most teams depth is Russ Ortiz or Sergio Mitre.

That's about the same level of AAA experience Buchholz had when he got called up, and more than Masterson had. Just FYI.

Tazawa is very close to big league ready.

[redsoxrules]

Sure, if a pitcher with an ERA in the mid 4's stabilizes this rotation he stabilizies it. He sure as heck wouldn't have dominated in Fenway Park. He .734 OPS against right in a park where righies DON'T have the Monster to tee off on.

mid 4? more like low 3

[Dojji]

I see no reason to believe Lee would have continued to pitch to that ERA in the American League East.

[jacksonianmarch]

why? There is no logic in that statement. It is AL Central to AL East. It is not that big of a jump

[Dipre]

Tazawa has been in AAA for what, 5 starts now? He is your depth down the stretch run? Cmon now.

So what, the Yankees have Roy Oswalt for depth?

Here's where your homerism fucks it up, man.

Pitching depth in baseball is, by definition, a pitcher who can give you league average or close to league average innings.

Do you think Tazawa and Bowden couldn't provide that?

[jacksonianmarch]

So what, the Yankees have Roy Oswalt for depth?

Here's where your homerism fucks it up, man.

Pitching depth in baseball is, by definition, a pitcher who can give you league average or close to league average innings.

Do you think Tazawa and Bowden couldn't provide that?

I think they could eventually. I actually think both will surpass MLB average eventually. That being said, your depth will be tested. If Penny, Buchholz, and Smoltz continue this charade, those guys will be in the majors for a stretch run. This is not like looking down at a 9th or 10th option here. And no, NY has no Oswalts for the stretch. But as of right now, there isnt a dire need to a pitcher to stem the tide since the O and the pitching have been good.

[SoxSport]

Forget about Halladay. Nobody was going to get him. Not the way Toronto was dangling him. They just weren't serious enough about trading him. Hernandez was also a pipe dream. Seattle didn't want to trade him.

The guy they could have gotten easily was Lee. Epstein blew it. His preference was for VMart. The priority should have been Lee. He was not going to get both. Cleveland preferred to deal them to separate teams. VMart was a great deal, and they need him for sure. But Lee was the short term need.

Epstein is gambling the season that Smoltz, Wake, Dice-K , Buchholz or Penny will emerge as the reliable no. 3 starter. Scratch Smoltz. Wake and Dice-K won't be available thru most of August. That leaves Penny or Buchholz. But the critical part of the schedule is now, and Theo seems to have missed that.

[Dipre]

I think they could eventually. I actually think both will surpass MLB average eventually. That being said, your depth will be tested. If Penny, Buchholz, and Smoltz continue this charade, those guys will be in the majors for a stretch run. This is not like looking down at a 9th or 10th option here. And no, NY has no Oswalts for the stretch. But as of right now, there isnt a dire need to a pitcher to stem the tide since the O and the pitching have been good.

Yeah, because your crystal ball predicted that, today, Dice-K and Wakefield would both be on the DL.

Your trying to make a pretty ridiculous point man.

Rotation:

Beckett
Lester
Dice-K
Wakefield
Penny

Depth:

Smoltz, Bucholz. Bowden Tazawa.

This is how it should've been.

Injuries derailed that, but it's not like the Yankees aren't one injury away from shitting the bed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, because your crystal ball predicted that, today, Dice-K and Wakefield would both be on the DL.

Your trying to make a pretty ridiculous point man.

Rotation:

Beckett
Lester
Dice-K
Wakefield
Penny

Depth:

Smoltz, Bucholz. Bowden Tazawa.

This is how it should've been.

Injuries derailed that, but it's not like the Yankees aren't one injury away from shitting the bed.


Both team's depth has been challenged. But, at this time, the yankees arent about to dip back into the very back of their depth. The sox, in all likelihood, will.

[Dipre]

Both team's depth has been challenged. But, at this time, the yankees arent about to dip back into the very back of their depth. The sox, in all likelihood, will.

You have Sergio Mitre in your starting rotation.

[jacksonianmarch]

You have Sergio Mitre in your starting rotation.

As the #5 starter, a guy we can theoretically skip a lot. If they are willing to move the rotation around when the #5 slot comes around, then Mitre or whomever is in the #5 slot will only pitch 8 more times this yr. Also, I highly doubt Mitre is in the rotation come next week. I bet Gaudin will be there, a guy whose FIP is pretty good and someone who I think can give us 5IP and 3-4ER on a regular basis unlike Mitre.

[Dipre]

As the #5 starter, a guy we can theoretically skip a lot. If they are willing to move the rotation around when the #5 slot comes around, then Mitre or whomever is in the #5 slot will only pitch 8 more times this yr. Also, I highly doubt Mitre is in the rotation come next week. I bet Gaudin will be there, a guy whose FIP is pretty good and someone who I think can give us 5IP and 3-4ER on a regular basis unlike Mitre.

Lol Gaudin.

This argument is about over.

Your homerism has taken over.

[jacksonianmarch]

so you are guaranteeing me that Bowden or Buchholz would be better than Chad Gaudin THIS yr. You are guaranteeing me this with the above post. Gaudin is terrible. He is awful. But I do think he can give us 5IP 3-4ER performances consistently. I am asking for 5 inning per start and an ERA between 5.4 and 7.2. That isnt too much to ask for IMO.

[Dipre]

so you are guaranteeing me that Bowden or Buchholz would be better than Chad Gaudin THIS yr. You are guaranteeing me this with the above post. Gaudin is terrible. He is awful. But I do think he can give us 5IP 3-4ER performances consistently. I am asking for 5 inning per start and an ERA between 5.4 and 7.2. That isnt too much to ask for IMO.

Yes, yes i do.

Because Chad Gaudin sucks ass.

And of course you're using FIP, he pitched in San Diego for Christ's sakes.

That'll help your HR rate.

Let's see that translate to Coors east.

[yankees228]

I think they could eventually. I actually think both will surpass MLB average eventually. That being said, your depth will be tested. If Penny, Buchholz, and Smoltz continue this charade, those guys will be in the majors for a stretch run. This is not like looking down at a 9th or 10th option here. And no, NY has no Oswalts for the stretch. But as of right now, there isnt a dire need to a pitcher to stem the tide since the O and the pitching have been good.

You're honestly not worried about the Yankees rotation?

[Dipre]

You're honestly not worried about the Yankees rotation?

Of course he's not.

[BSN07]

The Yankees are one injury away from being a train wreck.

[ManRam]

The Yankees are one injury away from being a train wreck.

Not anymore. They bolstered their rotation with ace in the making, Chad Gaudin

[TheKilo]

I think it's hilarious that Dojji thinks Cliff Lee wouldn't be an upgrade to this rotation.

[SCM33]

Chad Gaudin is an upgrade.

[Dipre]

I think it's hilarious that Dojji thinks Cliff Lee wouldn't be an upgrade to this rotation.

Of course he doesn't.

In his world, Hunter Strickland would be an upgrade though.

[jacksonianmarch]

You're honestly not worried about the Yankees rotation?

Right now I am not. We have 4 solid starters. That being said, if the Joba scaleback takes effect, then I will be cause that means Joba would be the one throwing only 8 more times and Mitre or Gaudin would start 11-12 more times.

[Dojji]

I think it's hilarious that Dojji thinks Cliff Lee wouldn't be an upgrade to this rotation.

That's not what I said. I said I don't think he's a good fit in the AL East and especially not in Fenway Park.

[Dipre]

That's not what I said. I said I don't think he's a good fit in the AL East and especially not in Fenway Park.

Again, why not?

[jacksonianmarch]

BEECUZ HEEZ A SAWFFT TAWSSIN LEFFTIE!!

[Dojji]

A lefty who gives up a lot of quality contact (witnessed by his career h/9, echoed by this season's version). Put a guy like that in a park with the Monster and he's going to give up more doubles and HR's that might be singles in other parks. He might be fine, but it does add an additional element of risk to going after Cliff Lee. He's probably better off where he is.

That besides the fact that most of his value is based on a singgle good year.

[Dipre]

A lefty who gives up a lot of quality contact (witnessed by his career h/9, echoed by this season's version). Put a guy like that in a park with the Monster and he's going to give up more doubles and HR's that might be singles in other parks. He might be fine, but it does add an additional element of risk to going after Cliff Lee. He's probably better off where he is.

Would he or would he not make the Sox rotation better?

[Dojji]

Would he or would he not make the Sox rotation better?

that is not the only consideration and you know it.

the real question is, would he make the Sox rotation, and future rotations, sufficiently better than they were before to justify the price paid. I don't believe so, or at least I think the answer is not clear.

Everyone wanted Lee mostly because he was a politically acceptable alternative to Halladay and they wanted to see a big move made.

[Dipre]

that is not the only consideration and you know it.

the real question is, would he make the Sox rotation, and future rotations, sufficiently better than they were before to justify the price paid. I don't believe so, or at least I think the answer is not clear.

Everyone wanted Lee mostly because he was a politically acceptable alternative to Halladay and they wanted to see a big move made.

You don't believe so, because you don't know what you're talking about, and i'm going to prove it to you.

You say he's a flyball pitcher who is not a fit for Fenway:

I say his 43.1 GB % and his 5.4 HR/FB % say otherwise, and for all accounts, Jacobs field is a hitters park, in case you didn't know.

You might argue he's a defense-dependent pitcher:

His 3.09 FIP says otherwise.

You might say both this season and last season were flukes:

His .319 and .305 2008 and 2009 BABIP suggest otherwise, his control (1.37 and 1.93 BB/9 respectively) is also pretty good.

You're starting to turn this into another Teixeira.

Lee is an excellent pitcher who would have solidified this rotation, and it's as clear as day.

So plz plz plz plz plz save yourself the embarrassment and stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

[jacksonianmarch]

You don't believe so, because you don't know what you're talking about, and i'm going to prove it to you.

You say he's a flyball pitcher who is not a fit for Fenway:

I say his 43.1 GB % and his 5.4 HR/FB % say otherwise, and for all accounts, Jacobs field is a hitters park, in case you didn't know.

You might argue he's a defense-dependent pitcher:

His 3.09 FIP says otherwise.

You might say both this season and last season were flukes:

His .319 and .305 2008 and 2009 BABIP suggest otherwise, his control (1.37 and 1.93 BB/9 respectively) is also pretty good.

You're starting to turn this into another Teixeira.

Lee is an excellent pitcher who would have solidified this rotation, and it's as clear as day.

So plz plz plz plz plz save yourself the embarrassment and stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

Impressive post there counselor

[Dipre]

Impressive post there counselor

Glad you could put our differences aside and recognize excellence.

[jacksonianmarch]

There is nothing to dispute. Evidence used. Well thought out. Solid post. Any post that leaves someone with no recourse but to agree with you is a good post. That being said, I have a feeling Dojji will try something. But you shot him down pretty heavily.

[a700hitter]

Everyone wanted Lee mostly because he was a politically acceptable alternative to Halladay and they wanted to see a big move made.We wanted him because he is damn good and we need pitching.

[Dipre]

There is nothing to dispute. Evidence used. Well thought out. Solid post. Any post that leaves someone with no recourse but to agree with you is a good post. That being said, I have a feeling Dojji will try something. But you shot him down pretty heavily.

He might try to use Lee's 2007 against him.

But the fact is, in 2007 what Lee struggled with was control, they sent him down to work on his release point, and voila.

This should be a lesson to how important pitching mechanics are to a pitcher.

[diony]

Would he or would he not make the Sox rotation better?

Sidney Ponson would make the Sox rotation better right now :lol:

[Dipre]

Sidney Ponson would make the Sox rotation better right now :lol:

The troll-fu is indeed strong in this one.

[a700hitter]

The troll-fu is indeed strong in this one.he's your friend.

[Dipre]

he's your friend.

IRL yes.

We also hate each other baseball wise.

It's a strange relationship.

But IRL he's not nearly as annoying as Jacko, he's pretty objective and knows both farm systems pretty well.

Why the trolling here? only he knows.