Wake on DL, Buchholz called up

[VA Sox Fan]

Wakefield on DL; Buchholz recalled

Posted by Adam Kilgore, Globe Staff July 21, 2009 04:56 PM

The Red Sox have placed knuckleballer Tim Wakefield on the disabled list with a lower back strain and recalled Clay Buchholz from Pawtucket.

Buchholz is with the club in Arlington and will start tomorrow

[Dutchy]

Wakefield on DL; Buchholz recalled

Posted by Adam Kilgore, Globe Staff July 21, 2009 04:56 PM

The Red Sox have placed knuckleballer Tim Wakefield on the disabled list with a lower back strain and recalled Clay Buchholz from Pawtucket.

Buchholz is with the club in Arlington and will start tomorrow

Wow, that's a bit of a shocker. I'm happy to see Buch up, but this isn't the way I wanted it to happen. Then again, it will give him a legitimate chance to pitch his way into the rotation.

[Coco's Disciples]

So Penny stays.

[Dutchy]

So Penny stays.

Yeah, that pretty much looks like a guarantee now.

[a700hitter]

That's the reason for the insurance. One more injury to the starting staff, and they have to start scraping the bottom of the barrel. I can hear the screaming now that Masterson and Bowden are not the bottom of the barrel. I would not be comfortable with either of those guys being in the rotation down the stretch. I am hoping that Dice K and Wake can get healthy in case Penny or Smoltz goes down.

[Dutchy]

That's the reason for the insurance. One more injury to the starting staff, and they have to start scraping the bottom of the barrel. I can hear the screaming now that Masterson and Bowden are not the bottom of the barrel. I would not be comfortable with either of those guys being in the rotation down the stretch. I am hoping that Dice K and Wake can get healthy in case Penny or Smoltz goes down.

Yup, this is why you wait until July 31st if you're considering trading a starter. Hopefully Wakefield is back in 15 days. No word on her serious his injury is.

[Dojji]

Huh? wha? Wait... whoa.... WHAT?????

Did not expect that. Wake seemed fine in his last start and we've had the whole All Star Break for him to rest.

*sigh*

Oh well, he'll bounce back quickly. It's what he does.

[Spudboy]

I find this really curious. All of a sudden Wake is befallen by a lower back injury? He has experienced these difficulties in the past, I know. But what has happened recently to bring this injury on? A marathon session in bed?

In any case, it's unfortunate timing. Or not.

I think that something is up. The next week will be really interesting.

[VA Sox Fan]

Wow, that's a bit of a shocker. I'm happy to see Buch up, but this isn't the way I wanted it to happen. Then again, it will give him a legitimate chance to pitch his way into the rotation.

I was shocked. Hate losing our 11-3 Wake. Hopefully, it is minor.

Happy for Buch.

[Dojji]

Interesting point. Any given athlete will have some form of aches and pains at any given time because of the strain major sports puts on their body. I imagine if you really wanted to you could find an excuse to DL at least half of the current Boston roster.

Might this simply be a phantom DL trip to allow Buck the extra chance he earned himself with his last start?

[VA Sox Fan]

Original article updated:


"This development comes as somewhat of a surprise given that there was no indication that Wakefield, who has an 11-3 record and a 4.31 ERA this season, was on the verge of a DL stint.

The 42-year-old, who made his first All-Star team this season, has not pitched since July 8 against Oakland, but that seemed no cause for alarm since the All-Star break allowed for some extra rest.

Buchholz pitched very well in his first big league start of the season Friday, the Red Sox' first game after the break. He allowed 4 hits and 1 earned run in 5.2 innings in a 4-1 victory over the Blue Jays. He walked three and struck out three.

Buchholz, 24, had been recalled from Pawtucket, where he has been sensational for much of the season (7-2, 2.36 ERA), ostensibly to give the Red Sox' rotation an extra day of rest coming out of the All-Star break. He was sent back down after the game"

[Dutchy]

I find this really curious. All of a sudden Wake is befallen by a lower back injury? He has experienced these difficulties in the past, I know. But what has happened recently to bring this injury on? A marathon session in bed?

In any case, it's unfortunate timing. Or not.

I think that something is up. The next week will be really interesting.

Yeah, at first I wondered if perhaps this was just a way to keep Wakefield fresh and get Buchholz into the rotation. I find it strange that there's no word on how the injury occurred. Who knows what the front office is thinking.

[Spudboy]

Interesting point. Any given athlete will have some form of aches and pains at any given time because of the strain major sports puts on their body. I imagine if you really wanted to you could find an excuse to DL at least half of the current Boston roster.

Might this simply be a phantom DL trip to allow Buck the extra chance he earned himself with his last start?

And as any "senior" member of Talksox will verify, more things hurt with less provocation when you get up there in years. Still, in the absence of an explanation, this seems odd.

[SCM33]

I think there is more to this than meets the eye with the timing of it and all....

[BSN07]

This seems like a phantom DL stint. Wake gets about a month off while missing only like 3 starts. I don't mind this at all. Buchholz gets a few starts and Wake has a fresh arm starting in August.

I wonder whether or not Buchholz is really being showcased and they needed a spot in the rotation for a few starts. Could the Sox be working on something big? I have contended all along that if Buchholz is in any deal, it's going to be for a big time player. I'm talking Hanley, Adrian Gonzalez someone top tier.


...Removing tinfoil hat...

Wake is 42 years old. He could have strained his back doing just about anything.

[schillingouttheks]

Isn't Buchholz out of options? He's either with the team for the rest of the year or he gets traded. Either way, he isn't going back to Pawtucket, because he sure as hell wouldn't clear waivers. Isn't this the current situation with him, or am I just wrong?

[Dutchy]

This seems like a phantom DL stint. Wake gets about a month off while missing only like 3 starts. I don't mind this at all. Buchholz gets a few starts and Wake has a fresh arm starting in August.

I wonder whether or not Buchholz is really being showcased and they needed a spot in the rotation for a few starts. Could the Sox be working on something big? I have contended all along that if Buchholz is in any deal, it's going to be for a big time player. I'm talking Hanley, Adrian Gonzalez someone top tier.


...Removing tinfoil hat...

Wake is 42 years old. He could have strained his back doing just about anything.

Hahaha. I think with the struggles of Smoltz the Red Sox are more likely to retain Buchholz and use him in their own rotation. But I think you're right in that Buchholz is pretty much untouchable unless he's part of a deal for an elite hitter.

[Dutchy]

Isn't Buchholz out of options? He's either with the team for the rest of the year or he gets traded. Either way, he isn't going back to Pawtucket, because he sure as hell wouldn't clear waivers. Isn't this the current situation with him, or am I just wrong?

We can send him up and down all year. But after this year, he's out of options.

[BSN07]

Isn't Buchholz out of options? He's either with the team for the rest of the year or he gets traded. Either way, he isn't going back to Pawtucket, because he sure as hell wouldn't clear waivers. Isn't this the current situation with him, or am I just wrong?

I believe he can go up and down as many times this year. It's next year he is out of options.

[SoxSport]

Maybe Wake does one for the team again. Who knows. 43 yo pitchers spend more time on the DL than 34 yo pitchers, so maybe it was inevitable. But Wake has already earned his salary this year--in April and May.

So now, Clay gets his chance. They need him now, and I hope he is up to it. I can't believe they'll trade him, not with the way Penny and Smoltz are pitching, and Dice-K on the DL. Bowden is next.

[a700hitter]

Hahaha. I think with the struggles of Smoltz the Red Sox are more likely to retain Buchholz and use him in their own rotation. But I think you're right in that Buchholz is pretty much untouchable unless he's part of a deal for an elite hitter.I'd move him for an elite pitcher. I don't like moving pitching unless pitching is coming back. If Penny had been moved a few weeks ago (as suggested by some) for a spare part bench player or a minor league prospect, this DL move would have caused Bowden to join Buchholz in the rotation and Tito would be managing without a net, because another DL move would cause a further dip into the minors or putting Masterson in the rotation and disrupting an already overworked bullpen. If they want to get a bat, let them trade minor league bats or lower level pitching prospects. I don't think it is wise to trade the organization's most valuable pitching prospects unless experienced pitching is the target.

[schillingouttheks]

I believe he can go up and down as many times this year. It's next year he is out of options.

Ohhhhh aight. Nevermind then.

[Dipre]

I'd move him for an elite pitcher. I don't like moving pitching unless pitching is coming back. If Penny had been moved a few weeks ago (as suggested by some) for a spare part bench player or a minor league prospect, this DL move would have caused Bowden to join Buchholz in the rotation and Tito would be managing without a net, because another DL move would cause a further dip into the minors or putting Masterson in the rotation and disrupting an already overworked bullpen. If they want to get a bat, let them trade minor league bats or lower level pitching prospects. I don't think it is wise to trade the organization's most valuable pitching prospects unless experienced pitching is the target.

Lol so you wouldn't move Clay + for a bat like Hanley's?

[a700hitter]

Lol so you wouldn't move Clay + for a bat like Hanley's?
There's no way that you get Hanley for Buchholz straight up. They'd want additional pieces like Masterson and/or Bowden.That would be too much pitching to give up without getting any pitching in return.

[Dipre]

There's no way that you get Hanley for Buchholz straight up. They'd want additional pieces like Masterson and/or Bowden.That would be too much pitching to give up without getting any pitching in return.

Clay += Clay PLUS other prospects, sir.

[Dutchy]

Clay += Clay PLUS other prospects, sir.

I'm amazed how often posters call other posters sir, champ, buddy, sweetie. etc. on this site. I can feel the love!

[Dutchy]

"Wake injured the back in his last side session on Sat. Not related to the SLAP tear. Lower down on the back. DL is retro to July 18."

http://twitter.com/AmalieBenjamin

[The_Destroyah]

I'm amazed how often posters call other posters sir, champ, buddy, sweetie. etc. on this site. I can feel the love!

glad to hear it champ.

[Dutchy]

glad to hear it champ.

Thanks bud!

[SCM33]

chief

[Spudboy]

Cannuk!:D

[Dutchy]

Cannuk!:D

:blink: hahaha

I like Chief and Cannuck. Figured we could use some new terms of endearment.

[a700hitter]

Clay += Clay PLUS other prospects, sir.I was on my blackberry, and it is a pain in the ass trying to read the posts in that format. Didn't see the "+", but if that + is more pitching, I would not do it.

[Coco's Disciples]

Hey honeys.

[a700hitter]

The big problem with Wake going on the DL is that he is one of the guys who has been able to pitch into the 6th, 7th and 8th. Buchholz is likely to be a another 5 inning pitcher. This will not help the bullpen.

[Dutchy]

Hey honeys.

How you doin' girlfrien'?

[a700hitter]

A heads up to Jacoby_Ellsbury, cunt is not a term of affection.

[Dutchy]

A heads up to Jacoby_Ellsbury, cunt is not a term of affection.

Depends on who you ask.

[The_Destroyah]

i like hombre...

[a700hitter]

Depends on who you ask.Have you had any successful relationships with women?

[Dutchy]

Have you had any successful relationships with women?

From what I understand, it's used as an ironic term of endearment between some lesbian couples.

[a700hitter]

From what I understand, it's used as an ironic term of endearment between some lesbian couples.I know some lesbians, but I hadn't heard that one.

[Dutchy]

i like hombre...

Hombro lobo.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

A heads up to Jacoby_Ellsbury, cunt is not a term of affection.
You constantly go around the board taking subtle pot shots at people, and then complain and call them bullies when they have the gall to retaliate.

Or are you just being fun!! again?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

There's no way that you get Hanley for Buchholz straight up. They'd want additional pieces like Masterson and/or Bowden.That would be too much pitching to give up without getting any pitching in return.
What's it to you? You labeled Masterson and Bowden as 'bottom of the barrel' not too long ago, and your track record indicates that you aren't one to slobber prospects and potential.

[a700hitter]

You constantly go around the board taking subtle pot shots at people, and then complain and call them bullies when they have the gall to retaliate.

Or are you just being fun!! again?Boy, you go from zero to rage in 0 seconds. Yeah, it was a joke. It has been you that has called me that name, not the other way around.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Boy, you go from zero to rage in 0 seconds. Yeah, it was a joke. It has been you that has called me that name, not the other way around.
Okay.


Is there a point you would like to make?

[a700hitter]

What's it to you? You labeled Masterson and Bowden as 'bottom of the barrel' not too long ago, and your track record indicates that you aren't one to slobber prospects and potential.What's it to you?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What's it to you?
Nothing to me, just wondering why you'd be so loathe to trading bottom of the barrel players.

[a700hitter]

Nothing to me, just wondering why you'd be so loathe to trading bottom of the barrel players.It's a good barrel?

[jacksonianmarch]

Interesting point. Any given athlete will have some form of aches and pains at any given time because of the strain major sports puts on their body. I imagine if you really wanted to you could find an excuse to DL at least half of the current Boston roster.

Might this simply be a phantom DL trip to allow Buck the extra chance he earned himself with his last start?

made sense a month ago. Right now, probably not.

[Dutchy]

made sense a month ago. Right now, probably not.

Why's that?

Let me guess, the Yankees are breathing down our necks now and we're desperately scrambling to stay afloat?

[jacksonianmarch]

No, because you are now in the second half of the season. Typically, you would want to rest him in the first half so he'd be fresh in the second.

[a700hitter]

No, because you are now in the second half of the season. Typically, you would want to rest him in the first half so he'd be fresh in the second.I guess that you must have been resting in the first half of the season, because we have been seeing a lot of you in the second half thus far.

[jacksonianmarch]

haha a700. I have been here, but my schedule has sucked.

[The_Destroyah]

haha a700. I have been here, but my schedule has sucked.

what exactly do you do? i know you are in the medical field but are you an resident? a nurse?

[jacksonianmarch]

Senior Resident

[The_Destroyah]

Senior Resident

that could definitely explain your erratic schedule...

[Spudboy]

Jacko is a Doctor. Not a nurse. I believe.

I've spoken to him about human physiology and he knew exactly what I was talking about and more.
I know just a little bit about the subject. Either Jacko is a Doctor, or he is one quick study. No one could answer my questions so accurately and so swiftly unless they had extensive training in physiology and medical science.

That does not mean that he knows all about baseball.:D

[The_Destroyah]

i bet your life is just like Grey's Anatomy or maybe General Hospital possibly even Scrubs lol
i gain all knowledge from the glowing tube in my living room so excuse me if i picture you as JD from Scrubs, as for the others ive never watched them but im sure its exactly like the life of Jacko.

[jacksonianmarch]

some resident's lives are like that, but I remain faithful to my wife. But what I know remains in my brain and goes nowhere else

[BSN07]

I can't believe no one used "Mate" or even "Bro" LOL

a700, to posters who are new to you, it does look like your contradicting yourself. You did call guys like Bowden and Masterson bottom of the barrel type guys for the rotation. Then said you wouldn't want to trade any of them with Buchholz for Hanley. Those guys are probably thinking to themselves, "trading 1 high potential SP and a couple bottom of the barrel guys looks like a steal for Hanley?"

But I've been around you a little more and if I had to make a guess at what you really think. I would say the fact you wouldn't trade them for Hanley proves you don't believe them to be "bottom of the barrel" type pitchers. You just have trust issues with guys who don't have proven track records in the Majors. Hence your preference of ML veteran players, over young more unproven skillful players.

But who knows, I could be missing the boat by a mile;)

[BoSox21]

FTR, I think its a phantom injury. I called for this move when Smoltz came back to keep Wakefield healthy for the stretch run. I doubt this would've been done had Buch been lit up on Friday.

[617_suffolkcounty_standup]

I know I'm going to take a beating for this but I hope I'm right about the end result of this move.

We are such a weak hitting team right now. It's the second half of the season and it's wicked hot in Texas. These are the games where we needed Timmy the most over his career and he couldn't get out of the second inning. Don't get me wrong I think Wakefields the best 5th starter in the game. However in crunch time we've seen this guy melt down. Maybe a little young blood is just what this team needs right now.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

But what I know remains in my brain and goes nowhere else
I hope for your sake that's the case. :D

[The_Destroyah]

Wake goin on the DL could honestly point to the sox making a move of some sort, i dunno maybe Wake is really hurt but i see it as a way to rest Wake and at the same time show case Buscholtz.

[jacksonianmarch]

Wake had to have another cortisone injection and is suffering from sciatica. Essentially, he has inflammation around the sciatic nerve coming out of the sciatic notch. The inflammation is severe enough to where he has lost strength in his calf. This is something that could keep him out for some time and eventually may require a procedure.

[SoxSport]

What's disturbing is Wake has these type injuries mid-term every year now, and he is never any good the 2nd half when he comes back.

[jacksonianmarch]

and therein lies the issue. You have two legit starters who are rollin in Beckett and Lester. After that, you have 3 guys who either dont throw strikes (Buchholz) or throw too many in the wrong location (Smoltz and Penny). And right now, it doesnt look like the reinforcements are coming any time soon.

[Dojji]

Pretty much even though the knuckleball isn't as hard on his arm as it is on other pitchers, playing baseball is still just about as hard for him as anyone else, and he is getting older.

I wouldn't take it as a guarantee that we see Wakefield back next year.

[Dojji]

and therein lies the issue. You have two legit starters who are rollin in Beckett and Lester. After that, you have 3 guys who either dont throw strikes (Buchholz) or throw too many in the wrong location (Smoltz and Penny). And right now, it doesnt look like the reinforcements are coming any time soon.

Bowden has been effective in AAA this year, and Tazawa was just promoted there. We have the ability to "go young" at any time.

[jacksonianmarch]

you can go young, but that by no means insinuates that you will improve your current production. Going young down a stretch run against teams like NY, Tampa and Texas is not a good way to go unless the players are so good that they just cannot miss (a la Chamberlain, Papelbon, or Price in yrs past).

[a700hitter]

you can go young, but that by no means insinuates that you will improve your current production. Going young down a stretch run against teams like NY, Tampa and Texas is not a good way to go unless the players are so good that they just cannot miss (a la Chamberlain, Papelbon, or Price in yrs past).It is a recipe for losing.

[THE ARS]

...I wouldn't take it as a guarantee that we see Wakefield back next year.

Or this year.

Didn't we have too much pitching a few weeks ago?


Tom

[jacksonianmarch]

Wake to have a rehab start on Friday and then might be back next week. If anyone watched the game today, they showed a clip of Tim covering first today. Not pretty

[Coco's Disciples]

^Yup. It made Mike Lowell look like Jesse Owens.

[BoSox21]

If anyone watched the game today, they showed a clip of Tim covering first today. Not pretty

Have you seen how he's walked from the mound to the dugout for the last five years?

[The_Destroyah]

Wake isnt really known for his agility Jacko lol.

[cobra24]

So, that is two really good starts from Buchholz in a row. i have heard that some people are not very hi on him. what do you guys think?

[BoSox21]

So, that is two really good starts from Buchholz in a row. i have heard that some people are not very hi on him. what do you guys think?

he could be figuring it out and I think he might be

[cobra24]

he could be figuring it out and I think he might be


i hope so.. he look pretty good yesterday. if i remember right be made one mistake.

[Dojji]

Wake isnt really known for his agility Jacko lol.

But he's usually known as a pretty decent fielder. even if he does walk like he's in his 40's now.

[BSN07]

He's looked good his last two outings. Hopefully he has turned a corner. This will all be valuable experience for him. It should really help his 2010.

[cobra24]

does anyone see Buchholz staying up if he is still pitching well when Dice K and Wake come back? i really do not trust Penny.

[Dojji]

I'm not convinced Daisuke is back before rosters expand.

[BSN07]

I'm not convinced Daisuke is back before rosters expand.

This^^

The only thing Buchholz has to worry about is making the post season roster.

[Dojji]

So, question: Daisuke doesn't return before September 1 but he is lights out when he does get back. Is he postseason eligible or not?

[ORS]

Yes. He was on the roster at some time during April-August.

[TheKilo]

I thought the rule was he had to be on the 25-man roster or on the DL come September 1.

Either way, he's eligible.

[ORS]

That is the rule. Since the discussion was about Matsuzaka needing to come off the DL before 9/1, I was referring to the fact that he'd been on the 25-man during the April-August timeframe, thus making him eligible if he comes back after 9/1.

[jacksonianmarch]

per rotoworld


Tim Wakefield may remain in the minors to make another rehab start after struggling to deal with his strained calf Saturday.

Wakefield gave up two runs in 3 2/3 innings for Triple-A Pawtucket last night. "It sounds like he threw the ball pretty well," manager Terry Francona said. "There was a noticeable limp, especially after the second inning coming off. It sounds like everybody thinks he can pitch. We don’t know if he can field his position. We’ll continue to try to figure out how he’s doing."

[a700hitter]

Cut his leg off and fit him with a prosthesis. It can be a modern day Monty Stratton story.

[TheKilo]

So, essentially, we're relying on a 42 year old who is limping around to come save our season.

Fantastic.

[example1]

Wakefield and Penny could have a "steal off me"-off. A gimpy Wake, unable to do swift moves to 1st, will be especially vulnerable. Sadly, Penny will be better at preventing steals. Yikes.

[Dojji]

There's some speculation that Buchholz and VMart might have hit it off and developed a bit of chemistry. Certainly seems to bear out in the field so far. I'd love to see that happen. The kid needs someone who can anchor him and keep his head where it belongs and VMart is as good at that as anyone else.

EDIT: BS alert -- it seems to tie back to one of those ESPN fluff piece articles. Some intersting stuff here, but it sounds just like the lines players say.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4398775


"He's been awesome so far for me," Buchholz said of Martinez in New York last weekend. "Little things go wrong and he'll come out and talk to you and he'll try and settle you down. As a young guy -- I'm not really near the veteran stage of my career -- that's a good thing for a guy to come out, tell me to settle down, make a pitch.

"It's nice for a catcher to be in the game as much as you are."

Buchholz said when Martinez puts down a sign, he does so with conviction. He'll pump his fist, giving Buchholz the confidence that he can throw it. Sabathia echoed Buchholz's words. He said there were times, in the middle of an at-bat, when he shook off a sign. Martinez would refuse to throw down another sign.

"He'd make me throw this pitch," Sabathia said. "He'd make me believe in it."

[BoSox21]

with Buchholz, its all mental right now so whatever gives him confidence in his pitches, go for it

[SoxSport]

The handwriting is on the wall with this team. They can't get to the playoffs with teams stealing them blind every game. And they can't survive with their DH hitting .220. They have some hard choices to make, and the sooner they make them the better.
Since I don't think they will, I'm inclined to write the season off at this point. The caveat is they have had so many things go wrong after the all-star break, things are bound to get better in September. For example, Dice-K could come back strong.

I think the FO has to take a look at the way they value their young players. They should be dealing from their strengths to correct their weaknesses. No sense in hanging onto surplus talent in one position while another position remains weak. With all this talk about surplus pitching talent, they have been unable or unwilling to find a suitable no.3 starter after DiceK went down.

There's still another way to look at this season. The Yankees spent almost a half billion dollars signing the top 3 FAs on the market pre-season. That's when everybody else was tightening due to the uncertainties in the economy and the financial system. At the same time, they managed to finance their new Stadium with taxpayer-supported bonds. Baseball is set up for them to succeed, and it's remarkable the Red Sox have been so successful in spite of this. You have to give them some slack.

[a700hitter]

The handwriting is on the wall with this team. They can't get to the playoffs with teams stealing them blind every game. And they can't survive with their DH hitting .220. They have some hard choices to make, and the sooner they make them the better.Their biggest obstacle is that they can't play on the road, and they only play 11 home games in September.

[TheKilo]

Their biggest obstacle is that they can't play on the road, and they only play 11 home games in September.

They were above .500 on the road last Sunday, before the TB series.

That's not the reason. Ortiz has killed the team this season. So has Drew, Lowrie, and to a lesser extent, Lowell.

[Dojji]

Not to mention Daisuke and Penny.

[TheKilo]

Daisuke yes, Penny not really - he's been a pretty serviceable 5th starter.

[BoSox21]

Problem is, Penny is viewed as the #3 since there are only 3 guys who have made all their starts. As a #3 starter, Penny is pretty bad. As a #5 starter, you can't say he's been bad. This rotation would look a whole lot better if Dice-K was giving us what he gave us last year, he's been the biggest key.

[TheKilo]

The pitching has been good all season though, the reason this team is where they are is because Ortiz has given them shit outside of a three week stretch, Lowrie has given them NOTHING, Drew/Lowell can't stay on the field, and Varitek is cooked.

Theo assembled an old team even after it was clear they were an old team last season. He's made this bed and will lie in it, and right now it looks like this team won't be playing meaningful baseball in October.

[BSN07]

The pitching has been good all season though, the reason this team is where they are is because Ortiz has given them shit outside of a three week stretch, Lowrie has given them NOTHING, Drew/Lowell can't stay on the field, and Varitek is cooked.

Theo assembled an old team even after it was clear they were an old team last season. He's made this bed and will lie in it, and right now it looks like this team won't be playing meaningful baseball in October.

I'm not ready to give up on the season. But I agree with you to a certain extent about this team being old in certain vital places.

I think we could see a decent roster shake up come this off season. Like the one following the 2006 season.


Holliday should be the #1 option for LF, Bay wouldn't be bad to bring back either. But as we have seen he is very streaky. Either hits everything, or hits nothing.

There might be some other options there as well via trade or someone who's option might not get picked up that we don't know of right now.

Find a horse SP via trade or maybe sign Lackey. Although his numbers are not good in Fenway.

SS needs to be set. Lowrie doesn't look like he's going to cut it. He would be a great super utility player for this club though IMO.

Decide what to do with Lowell and Ortiz. Lowell might be able to bounce back next season. With Kotchman/Youk.V-Mart all able to play 1B. Youk should be able to allow the Sox to not over use him, thus hopefully keeping him healthy all season. Ortiz is tough. Maybe someone will trade for him. Maybe they flat out release him. I don't think they should go into the season enxt year as the teams full time DH. they could keep him, but AB's in the DH spot should be spread out more. Ortiz and Lowell just aren't full season guys anymore it would seem.

[jacksonianmarch]

the problem is, how do they shake it up. After 2006, a lot of the burden contracts were expired. After this season, the only burden on the team whose contract is up is Varitek, who may come back based on his own player option. Bay is your biggest FA, and you need him. Papi and Lowell are going to be difficult to impossible to move and Drew still has 2 more yrs. Face it, the sox offense will look VERY similar to this yrs in 2010. The only question will be where Jay Bay ends up and who replaces him. And if that name is Holliday, then it is a sharp downgrade.

[BSN07]

the problem is, how do they shake it up. After 2006, a lot of the burden contracts were expired. After this season, the only burden on the team whose contract is up is Varitek, who may come back based on his own player option. Bay is your biggest FA, and you need him. Papi and Lowell are going to be difficult to impossible to move and Drew still has 2 more yrs. Face it, the sox offense will look VERY similar to this yrs in 2010. The only question will be where Jay Bay ends up and who replaces him. And if that name is Holliday, then it is a sharp downgrade.

Yes because it's unheard of to eat a players salary and release him:rolleyes:

Not saying that's what's going to happen. But there are options.

Ortiz or Lowell could be an add on in a trade possibly too.

Bay would be nice to bring back, but like I said there are other options.

If this was a small market team, then yes it would be hard to move some of these guys. When you can eat $ and not have it be a big issue, it's easier to move players.

The view of Holliday as being a downgrade is laughable and could only come from someone like you. Holliday's younger, far superior in the field and his bat isn't that much of a downgrade. Of course if the Sox sign Bay, and the Yanks sign Holliday, I'm sure it will take all of 5 minutes for you to show up and tell us how Holliday is the superior player, and how the Sox missed out again to the Yanks...

[TheKilo]

the problem is, how do they shake it up. After 2006, a lot of the burden contracts were expired. After this season, the only burden on the team whose contract is up is Varitek, who may come back based on his own player option. Bay is your biggest FA, and you need him. Papi and Lowell are going to be difficult to impossible to move and Drew still has 2 more yrs. Face it, the sox offense will look VERY similar to this yrs in 2010. The only question will be where Jay Bay ends up and who replaces him. And if that name is Holliday, then it is a sharp downgrade.

Spot on, their contracts headed in to 2010 are a huge burden to this team and will make it very difficult to upgrade via free agency.

Theo says he doesn't like to do that anyway but you can't fill all of your holes internally or via trades. Prospects don't pan out, and trades use a lot of your internal resources.

I think this offseason will be very difficult for Theo. They may have no choice but to go into 2010 with their 2009 lineup (with either Bay or Holliday) and just hope everyone stays healthy or rebounds.

[BoSox21]

They might just need to get creative a bit. I think they can trade Ortiz to a club looking to sell tickets and slide Lowell into the DH spot. Then put Youkilis at 3rd and get a nice bat to fill a position where nice bats are plentiful, first base.

[example1]

Spot on, their contracts headed in to 2010 are a huge burden to this team and will make it very difficult to upgrade via free agency.

Theo says he doesn't like to do that anyway but you can't fill all of your holes internally or via trades. Prospects don't pan out, and trades use a lot of your internal resources.

I think this offseason will be very difficult for Theo. They may have no choice but to go into 2010 with their 2009 lineup (with either Bay or Holliday) and just hope everyone stays healthy or rebounds.

If Papi's semi-reasonable deal ends up being an albatross is there still reason for people to scream at Theo for not signing enormous 8 year deals with guys costing more than 20m per year? We acknowledge that the team would struggle to just 'swallow' contracts of 12m a year, so more than 20 would actually hurt this team.

Personally, I think they can afford to just let Papi go after this season. If they let him go and traded for, say, Adam Dunn, the lineup would look different and they would pay those two guys something like 24m for a season and then be on the hook for neither the year after. Yeah, its a big chunk of change, but Dunn's OPS is better than Teixeira's and I'd offer that offensively he's about as good (without the switch hitting and gg defense, of course). He'd be a fine DH IMO. They could trade for Dunn and get Holliday or Bay without too much difficulty.

Overall I too expect the lineup to look very similar, but I don't see how they can expect anything offensively from Papi and, therefore, how they can plan on keeping him around, even with his pricetag. At this point they can cut him knowing that at least they only have ONE year remaining. Even at 20 HR and 85 RBI he's a big hole on this team because he can't do anything else.

I think this completely justifies the FO's general reluctance to go long on contracts or to pay extreme costs for players who are producing at a top level now but who may flame out with years remaining. It doesn't always happen, but when a player sucks after 4 years of a 6 or 7 year deal it can really cripple a team like this.

let's face it, there's only one team that can truly afford to swallow longterm deals. As much as Gom or Jacko would love to say "See, the Sox are a big market team too! Stop whining about money!" they can't defend the fact that teams that are "big market" like the Sox or Angels or Mets truly cannot afford to have 14-20m players sitting on their bench or needing to be released. They just can't.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes because it's unheard of to eat a players salary and release him:rolleyes:

Not saying that's what's going to happen. But there are options.

Ortiz or Lowell could be an add on in a trade possibly too.

Bay would be nice to bring back, but like I said there are other options.

If this was a small market team, then yes it would be hard to move some of these guys. When you can eat $ and not have it be a big issue, it's easier to move players.

The view of Holliday as being a downgrade is laughable and could only come from someone like you. Holliday's younger, far superior in the field and his bat isn't that much of a downgrade. Of course if the Sox sign Bay, and the Yanks sign Holliday, I'm sure it will take all of 5 minutes for you to show up and tell us how Holliday is the superior player, and how the Sox missed out again to the Yanks...


whoa, hold up there partner. Thats a major typo. I meant to say anyone other than Holliday replacing Bay would be a sharp downgrade

[a700hitter]

Overall I too expect the lineup to look very similar, but I don't see how they can expect anything offensively from Papi and, therefore, how they can plan on keeping him around, even with his pricetag. At this point they can cut him knowing that at least they only have ONE year remaining. Even at 20 HR and 85 RBI he's a big hole on this team because he can't do anything else.He could easily finish with close to 30 HRs and 90+ RBI.

[BSN07]

whoa, hold up there partner. Thats a major typo. I meant to say anyone other than Holliday replacing Bay would be a sharp downgrade

Okay. As far as FA goes I would agree. Unless someone's option isn't picked up and they become a FA. Like Crawford for example.

[BSN07]

He could easily finish with close to 30 HRs and 90+ RBI.

We can only hope. Might bump up his trade value.

[TheKilo]

He could easily finish with close to 30 HRs and 90+ RBI.

You think Ortiz hits 10 HRs in 40 games when it's taken him 120 to hit 17?

[BSN07]

You think Ortiz hits 10 HRs in 40 games when it's taken him 120 to hit 17?

Very good point:lol:

[a700hitter]

You think Ortiz hits 10 HRs in 40 games when it's taken him 120 to hit 17?Yes, I think he will. He's a streaky HR hitter, but when he is in a groove, he can hit 3,4 or 5 in a week. It will be difficult to do if they have Varitek batting behind him.

[a700hitter]

You think Ortiz hits 10 HRs in 40 games when it's taken him 120 to hit 17?He hit 11 HRs in 31 games from 6/6 to 7/11.

[BSN07]

He hit 11 HRs in 31 games from 6/6 to 7/11.

And that was his best 4 week stretch of the year. He hasn't done much else outside of it.

[TheKilo]

He hit 11 HRs in 31 games from 6/6 to 7/11.

He hit 6 from 4/7 to 6/5 and from 7/12 to 8/16.

[a700hitter]

He hit 6 from 4/7 to 6/5 and from 7/12 to 8/16.But he is entirely capable of hitting 10 in 40 games.

[a700hitter]

He hit 6 from 4/7 to 6/5 and from 7/12 to 8/16.He hit none in his first 35 games which iwas the worst stretch of his career.

[example1]

He hit none in his first 35 games which iwas the worst stretch of his career.

I love Papi as much as anyone and really wish he didn't suck.

However, through June, July and August he's been:

.250/.339/.523/.862. That's okay, nothing great.

Remove June and he's been:

.213/.300/.454/.754.

That's worse than we tolerate from our catchers. This team is too good to accept that as a regular part of the middle of their order.

[BSN07]

I love Papi as much as anyone and really wish he didn't suck.

However, through June, July and August he's been:

.250/.339/.523/.862. That's okay, nothing great.

Remove June and he's been:

.213/.300/.454/.754.

That's worse than we tolerate from our catchers. This team is too good to accept that as a regular part of the middle of their order.

Totally agree

[a700hitter]

.250/.339/.523/.862. That's okay, nothing great.
Only Youkilis and Bay have an OPS higher than .862

[Gom]

let's face it, there's only one team that can truly afford to swallow longterm deals. As much as Gom or Jacko would love to say "See, the Sox are a big market team too! Stop whining about money!" they can't defend the fact that teams that are "big market" like the Sox or Angels or Mets truly cannot afford to have 14-20m players sitting on their bench or needing to be released. They just can't.

Nobody can. The Yankees have the best ability to absorb, then the Red Sox, etc. It's simply a matter of percentage. The higher your operating payroll, the better your ability to absorb a bad contract.

The trick is to sign players to deals that are in line with their decline. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd rather take the higher deal for less years. This way, it's easy to cut the strings and not hamstring your team. I'd much rather take Damon at 13 million next year for one year than for two years at 20 million. I personally think that will be the going trend for the next few years.

Plus, deals look different over time.

The Red Sox looked like off-season winners when they signed Lugo, Drew, and Matsuzaka. This year, the deals look horrible.

[redsoxrules]

Only Youkilis and Bay have an OPS higher than .862

yeah and every redsox starter except the SS position has a higher OPS than Ortiz

[a700hitter]

yeah and every redsox starter except the SS position has a higher OPS than OrtizWhich is the result of enduring the worst slump of his career coming off a wrist injury.

[TheKilo]

I thought the worst slump of his career was last season?

Face it, dude's getitng old and his skills are deteriorating. Quickly.

[BSN07]

I thought the worst slump of his career was last season?

Face it, dude's getitng old and his skills are deteriorating. Quickly.

I agree, I don't know if I see him really coming back. His days as a premiere DH are gone for good.

[a700hitter]

I thought the worst slump of his career was last season?

Face it, dude's getitng old and his skills are deteriorating. Quickly.By the time of his injury, he was out of his slump and he was hitting very well. He had 13 HRs and 43 RBI by the end of May. That's not too shabby. He missed 9 weeks with the injury and his wrist was not the same for the remainder of the season.

[Spudboy]

I agree, I don't know if I see him really coming back. His days as a premiere DH are gone for good.

I agree but what are the Sox options? Release him and eat $12mil.? Would anyone ever take him in trade? The Sox are stuck with him. :thumbdown

[a700hitter]

I agree, I don't know if I see him really coming back. His days as a premiere DH are gone for good.I think he might surprise you in the last 6 weeks. He will not be 2006 Ortiz. Very few in the history of the game have reached that level, but I think we will see an Ortiz who is a constant offensive threat.

[BSN07]

I agree but what are the Sox options? Release him and eat $12mil.? Would anyone ever take him in trade? The Sox are stuck with him. :thumbdown
Moving him is not impossible. Not easy. But still.

I think he might surprise you in the last 6 weeks. He will not be 2006 Ortiz. Very few in the history of the game have reached that level, but I think we will see an Ortiz who is a constant offensive threat.

I hopw your right. I won't hold my breath though.

[example1]

Nobody can. The Yankees have the best ability to absorb, then the Red Sox, etc. It's simply a matter of percentage. The higher your operating payroll, the better your ability to absorb a bad contract.

The trick is to sign players to deals that are in line with their decline. Personally, if I had to choose, I'd rather take the higher deal for less years. This way, it's easy to cut the strings and not hamstring your team. I'd much rather take Damon at 13 million next year for one year than for two years at 20 million. I personally think that will be the going trend for the next few years.

Plus, deals look different over time.

The Red Sox looked like off-season winners when they signed Lugo, Drew, and Matsuzaka. This year, the deals look horrible.

If it is a matter of percentage then the Sox are 6th, not 2nd.

[ManRam]

If his name wasn't David Ortiz he would probably be gone by now.

I think Theo is a little too emotional towards players.

[Dipre]

If his name wasn't David Ortiz he would probably be gone by now.

I think Theo is a little too emotional towards players.

Surely you jest.

[example1]

If his name wasn't David Ortiz he would probably be gone by now.

I think Theo is a little too emotional towards players.

I disagree with this too. I think Theo is someone who goes out of his way to take emotions out of the equation. I don't think anyone can be perfectly objective but he does a good job of evaluating players on actual numbers instead of feelings.

If Ortiz wasn't owed so much money next year he might have been released, depending on who else would have been available at the time. Now they're not going to get a whole lot for him in trade and aren't going to get any FAs in August.

[Dipre]

I disagree with this too. I think Theo is someone who goes out of his way to take emotions out of the equation. I don't think anyone can be perfectly objective but he does a good job of evaluating players on actual numbers instead of feelings.

If Ortiz wasn't owed so much money next year he might have been released, depending on who else would have been available at the time. Now they're not going to get a whole lot for him in trade and aren't going to get any FAs in August.

Your post, even though it hit the nail right in the head, goes without saying, i believe.

[ORS]

By the time of his injury, he was out of his slump and he was hitting very well. He had 13 HRs and 43 RBI by the end of May. That's not too shabby. He missed 9 weeks with the injury and his wrist was not the same for the remainder of the season.
Yeah, this. From 4/18 - 5/31 of 2008, Ortiz was .313/.408/.626. That's a month and a half of awesomeness. The talent is still there, but it's tough being consistent when you are in one period of recovery after another.

[Dojji]

worth mentioning of course, that stumbling from one injury to another is how a lot of players show their decline in earnest, especially the big bodied players like Frank Thomas who was very good while he could play but was quite frequently injured.

[TheKilo]

Plus, deals look different over time.

The Red Sox looked like off-season winners when they signed Lugo, Drew, and Matsuzaka. This year, the deals look horrible.

Nah, they won a WS thanks to the contributions of those three. Those deals are still OK in my book.

[Dojji]

Indeed. For the same reason that we, smarting as we are for a shortstop, don't really condemn the Hanley trade. It brought us two of the biggest contributors to that World Series win.

[a700hitter]

Indeed. For the same reason that we, smarting as we are for a shortstop, don't really condemn the Hanley trade. It brought us two of the biggest contributors to that World Series win.As fans we got a World Championship so we are fine with those signings., but the guys that are cutting the checks for years to come can't be happy with the performance they are getting for the pay. They are clearly underperforming for their contracts.

[Dipre]

Indeed. For the same reason that we, smarting as we are for a shortstop, don't really condemn the Hanley trade. It brought us two of the biggest contributors to that World Series win.

Not to mention the filthiest pitcher in the league right now.

[The_Destroyah]

Not to mention the filthiest pitcher in the league right now.

That tends to be even filthier in the postseason.

[Dojji]

And the guy we got as a throw in salary dump wasn't too bad either. Solidified a real problem position for us for a few years, even if he is wearing out now.

[Dipre]

And the guy we got as a throw in salary dump wasn't too bad either. Solidified a real problem position for us for a few years, even if he is wearing out now.

He can still hit though.