Ortiz not sure if he took steroids

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ortizsteroids&prov=st&type=lgns


It appears Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz is not sure if he has
taken steroids.

Ortiz told the Boston Herald that he could not say definitively if he had ever used performance-enhancing drugs in the past. The burly designated hitter also said that if he did, it happened when he was much younger.

“I tell you, I don’t know too much about steroids, but I started listening about steroids when they started to bring that (expletive) up,” Ortiz told the paper. “I started realizing and getting to know a little bit about it. You’ve got to be careful.

“I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don’t do that anymore because they don’t have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I’m off buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican (Republic). But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don’t know. I don’t know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it.”


However, Ortiz, who hit a club-record 54 home runs last season, made light of the situation, joking that he should try steroids just to see what all the fuss is about.

“I should use steroids just to see what’s going on,” Ortiz joked to the Herald. “Nah. I have a good family. I want to see my kids learn and develop. I think I’m having an OK career. So, I take a lot of Advils, but I think I’m going to stop taking them. They say it (expletive) your liver.”

Ortiz spent six non-descript seasons in Minnesota before signing with the Red Sox before the 2003 season. He has quickly become a Boston icon and one of the most popular players in baseball.

In 2004, Ortiz anchored a Red Sox squad which won the franchise’s first World Series in 86 years - highlighted by a shocking comeback against the rival New York Yankees in the American League Championship Series.

The Red Sox became the first team in baseball history to come back from a three-games-to-none deficit to win a playoff series.



Allow me to translate - he juiced.

[BoSox21]

Old news.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Didn't see it posted.

[BoSox21]

However, Ortiz, who hit a club-record 54 home runs last season, made light of the situation, joking that he should try steroids just to see what all the fuss is about.

That should've given it away.

[TheKilo]

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/8818-report-ortiz-not-sure-if-he-took-steroids.html

[yeszir]

That should've given it away.

If he did take steroids, it was certainly before last year.

[26 to 6]

Guilty. I can't wait to see how some of the sox fans who have relentlessly bashed the yankee orgnaization react to this. The way I look at it is that this is just another indication of just how rampant it was. Everyone was doing it.

But with that being said I hope this marks the end of all the talk about how we should be ashamed that our championship teams were comprised of Performance Enhanced players, because if not for Papi and his steroids there is no 2004 championship in Boston.

[BoSox21]

Guilty. I can't wait to see how some of the sox fans who have relentlessly bashed the yankee orgnaization react to this. The way I look at it is that this is just another indication of just how rampant it was. Everyone was doing it.

But with that being said I hope this marks the end of all the talk about how we should be ashamed that our championship teams were comprised of Performance Enhanced players, because if not for Papi and his steroids there is no 2004 championship in Boston.

Do you have any actual proof? Is his name in the Mitchell Report? Was his name leaked in any survey testing results? Have any personal trainers said they have syringes with Papi DNA on it? Have any former teammates said they saw him do anything? Or are you just going by his comments that there could have been stuff in the protein shakes he drank back when he was in the DR just starting to get hair on his balls?

[26 to 6]

Do you have any actual proof? Is his name in the Mitchell Report? Was his name leaked in any survey testing results? Have any personal trainers said they have syringes with Papi DNA on it? Have any former teammates said they saw him do anything? Or are you just going by his comments that there could have been stuff in the protein shakes he drank back when he was in the DR just starting to get hair on his balls?
And you believe every word he says?

Lets look at things from the flipside. If we take A-Rod or Clemens or even Pettitte at his word we're being stupid and nieve. You really think a fucking protein shake could have that effect of Ortiz? Dude juiced, he knows it, we know it, you know it. You can just tell by reading his quotes, just like you could just tell the other day that A-Rod was lying. Hop off his dick buddy and face reality/

[TheKilo]

26 - I have my doubts as to whether or not Ortiz used steroids or any other PEDs or not - but to automatically assume he did without a shred of evidence is intellectually dishonest and contributes nothing to the discussion.

Do I think it's possible he used? Yes, I do. But until I have some tangible evidence (like the ARod and Pettitte "admissions"), I will not conclusively say he did them one way or another.

[BoSox21]

And you believe every word he says?

Until it's been proven otherwise. The difference between Ortiz and Clemens/Pettitte/A-Rod should be obvious to you....

Why not believe Posada took PEDs in 2007? Dude hit .338 and had never had a .300 before or after that.

[Keeper]

Innocent until proven guilty.

[a700hitter]

Old story being brought up by a bitter Yankee fan. A cheater and a fraud denies all culpability until presented with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, and even then many cheaters and frauds will still maintain their innocence, e.g. Roger Clemens, O.J. Simpson. I don't think that a roid cheater would discuss this topic so casually. This story was the result of an attention seeking writer manipulating an informal conversation into innuendo.

[italstallianion]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ortiz took steroids, however nothing tangible has been presented so I really don't see any point in Yankee fans having sour grapes at this current moment.

[mtbykr]

And you believe every word he says?

Lets look at things from the flipside. If we take A-Rod or Clemens or even Pettitte at his word we're being stupid and naive. You really think a fucking protein shake could have that effect of Ortiz? Dude juiced, he knows it, we know it, you know it. You can just tell by reading his quotes, just like you could just tell the other day that A-Rod was lying. Hop off his dick buddy and face reality/

The difference is arod, clemens, and even pettitte have been proven to be liars...so we are skeptical when Pettitte says 'i only did it once, or twice' (i forget which once he landed on) and arod says i only did it from 01-03. History tells us that they have been dishonest when it comes to their history with PED's, so we have a right to be skeptical.

If Ortiz is proven to be guilty of using PED's then he will be hammered here as well. Do I think it's possible he used, yes...but I will reserve judgment until he has been proven to have used. Bringing up an old article, where he talks about things he did in his youth and comparing it to the current situation is just foolishness.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Guilty. I can't wait to see how some of the sox fans who have relentlessly bashed the yankee orgnaization react to this.

I already said I'd be far from shocked if this is true.


But with that being said I hope this marks the end of all the talk about how we should be ashamed that our championship teams were comprised of Performance Enhanced players, because if not for Papi and his steroids there is no 2004 championship in Boston.

LOL.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

That should've given it away.

How will I ever make it up to you?

[BoSox21]

Maybe just make sure the articles you post aren't two years old

[BSN07]

And you believe every word he says?

Lets look at things from the flipside. If we take A-Rod or Clemens or even Pettitte at his word we're being stupid and nieve. You really think a fucking protein shake could have that effect of Ortiz? Dude juiced, he knows it, we know it, you know it. You can just tell by reading his quotes, just like you could just tell the other day that A-Rod was lying. Hop off his dick buddy and face reality/

If Ortiz took something it wouldn't be shocking, and I'd take the same line I have been for everyone else, who gives a shit. I'm not obsessed with numbers and records like some. Put a good product on the field and let er rip.

At this point I wouldn't care if Dustin Pedroia was shoving mentos and diet coke up his ass for some sort of performance enhancement.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Maybe just make sure the articles you post aren't two years old
Honestly, who gives a shit?


This is a relevant story right now one way or the other. Just for you though, I'll bump it next time.

[bobjenz]

If Papi took Roids, I'd be let down. BUT, now, who DIDN'T? Let's single them out and have a fuckin' parade.

[a700hitter]

Honestly, who gives a shit?


This is a relevant story right now one way or the other. Just for you though, I'll bump it next time.This article is relevant to nothing at this time. It is just an old story.

[Soxfan#1]

This is really old?

[J.P.]

I remember reading this article back like 2 years ago...

Anyway...whats up guys. I'm new here...I post a lot on some football fan forums being a huge Dolphins fan, but haven't found a good Red Sox message board until now.

Ok...let the bashing begin;-).

[J.P.]

As for Ortiz, I don't know if he took steroids during his tenure in Boston. I can definitely see him taking them while trying to work his way up to the majors (who wasn't??).

One Sox' I can see having taken steroids, is Manny.

[yeszir]

I remember reading this article back like 2 years ago...

Anyway...whats up guys. I'm new here...I post a lot on some football fan forums being a huge Dolphins fan, but haven't found a good Red Sox message board until now.

Ok...let the bashing begin;-).

Welcome. But Dolphins? Seriously?

[J.P.]

I only root for the best;-).

[soxlife92]

Guilty. I can't wait to see how some of the sox fans who have relentlessly bashed the yankee orgnaization react to this. The way I look at it is that this is just another indication of just how rampant it was. Everyone was doing it.

But with that being said I hope this marks the end of all the talk about how we should be ashamed that our championship teams were comprised of Performance Enhanced players, because if not for Papi and his steroids there is no 2004 championship in Boston.

hahahahaha. i love how the second this is posted during the week of A-rod's confession you immediately jump all over a sox player who this happened to awhle ago. so defensive. i respect that.

[See Red]

I only root for the best;-).

Well, you're not a Patriots fan, so you're alright in my book.

But seriously, the Dolphins? :lol:

[J.P.]

Well, you're not a Patriots fan, so you're alright in my book.

But seriously, the Dolphins? :lol:

I don't get it.

They are the winningest franchise in NFL History (now tied with Pittsburgh); have won 2 SBs. Have the ultimate record that will never be broken. Had the greatest pure passer of all time, bar none....

And umm...I'm just going to throw this out there...who won the AFC East in 08 again??:harhar:


Haha just messin.

[See Red]

I don't get it.

They are the winningest franchise in NFL History (now tied with Pittsburgh); have won 2 SBs. Have the ultimate record that will never be broken. Had the greatest pure passer of all time, bar none....

And umm...I'm just going to throw this out there...who won the AFC East in 08 again??:harhar:


Haha just messin.

Not to completely hi-jack this thread with Dolphins talk, but I don't know... outside of the year I lived in Florida (don't believe my listed location to the left, I'm back in Colorado now-a-days), I don't really come across many Dolphins fans. I'm sure they have tons of fans, more than most teams, but they seem kind of rare. :dunno:

... maybe people just don't like wearing aqua and orange.

[TedWilliams101]

This article is old. He was from the DR and just being honest and funny. I'm sure most (if not all) of the current players from the DR took supplements and protein shakes and couldn't tell you exactly what was in every single thing they ever took. I take this as it is; he has never knowingly taken steroids.

Anyways, his career certainly doesn't suggest steroid use. He didn't start to produce until he came to Boston, which was after they cracked down on steroid use. If anything, I think we should be giving him credit for being totally honest. I don't think a single other player would ever (unless found guilty) even suggest that they might have unknowingly took steroids.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This article is relevant to nothing at this time. It is just an old story.
Uhhh yeah its relevant. There's a firestorm surrounding steroids right now, and the players who have done them. Ortiz is one of the most well-known players in baseball, and some people now have their eyes on him for possible steroid use. It doesn't matter that the story's from 07, it concerns the 03-06 time period.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Anyways, his career certainly doesn't suggest steroid use. He didn't start to produce until he came to Boston, which was after they cracked down on steroid use.

Because no one's been busted for steroids since 2003.


If anything, I think we should be giving him credit for being totally honest. I don't think a single other player would ever (unless found guilty) even suggest that they might have unknowingly took steroids.

Because it definitely isn't a perfect alibi for Ortiz in the event that he was juicing and people do find out.

[TedWilliams101]

Because no one's been busted for steroids since 2003.

We know all of the players who have tested positive since 2003, Ortiz isn't one of them. Yes, it is possible he was one of the players on that list from '03, but odds are that he isn't.


Because it definitely isn't a perfect alibi for Ortiz in the event that he was juicing and people do find out.

Yes, it could be a perfect Alibi, but I don't think it is. If he was a roider, I'm sure he would have consulted a lawyer/someone before suggesting that he ever used steroids. It was just a funny comment he said in response to a reporter asking him if he had ever used (steroids). It just doesn't make any sense that he purposely said that so he could use it as an alibi.

The fact is, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Ortiz took steroids. I am certainly not naive enough to believe he never unknowingly took steroids back in his youth in the DR, but honestly, who cares? We are talking about what he has done recently, not 10 years ago.

[Keeper]

We know all of the players who have tested positive since 2003

No, we don't. Not even close.

[jacksonianmarch]

they're all guilty. But as a fan of watching the game, I dont really care. Its the era we live in

[TheKilo]

We know all of the players who have tested positive since 2003, Ortiz isn't one of them. Yes, it is possible he was one of the players on that list from '03, but odds are that he isn't.



Yes, it could be a perfect Alibi, but I don't think it is. If he was a roider, I'm sure he would have consulted a lawyer/someone before suggesting that he ever used steroids. It was just a funny comment he said in response to a reporter asking him if he had ever used (steroids). It just doesn't make any sense that he purposely said that so he could use it as an alibi.

The fact is, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Ortiz took steroids. I am certainly not naive enough to believe he never unknowingly took steroids back in his youth in the DR, but honestly, who cares? We are talking about what he has done recently, not 10 years ago.

Hey man, where have you been?











Can you go back there?

[a700hitter]

Uhhh yeah its relevant. There's a firestorm surrounding steroids right now, and the players who have done them.The firestorm has been around ARod and the few idiots who have managed to get themselves in criminal trouble by perjuring themselves, e.g. Clemens, Bonds, Tejada. No one else is in the news for Roids.
Ortiz is one of the most well-known players in baseball, and some people now have their eyes on him for possible steroid use.Really? Who are those people that have their eyes on Ortiz? Good luck at trying to create suspicion by your own baseless rumor mongering
It doesn't matter that the story's from 07, it concerns the 03-06 time period.His statements concern his youth in the DR, not 2003-2006. I guess you missed that part of the article. The article is old news and irrelevant as are your posts in this thread.

[Dipre]

Ortiz' statement seems to have been done in complete honesty.

And living here in D.R, you don't know how it works around here, for some kids, it's sign or live in poverty, so they'll take whatever their trainer gives them without asking, and a lot of them will juice unknowingly, since they'll be told that it's "injected vitamin B complex", and when you're nearly homeless, you'd take cocaine up the ass to make it up the states, so they'll just do as they're told, no questions asked, and it think that's what Ortiz was referring to.

[Dojji]

Thank goodness we have someone who knows his **** and can set us straight.

[JimEdHOF2009]

Guilty. I can't wait to see how some of the sox fans who have relentlessly bashed the yankee orgnaization react to this. The way I look at it is that this is just another indication of just how rampant it was. Everyone was doing it.

But with that being said I hope this marks the end of all the talk about how we should be ashamed that our championship teams were comprised of Performance Enhanced players, because if not for Papi and his steroids there is no 2004 championship in Boston.

OK...let's assume Papi did juice..and it is a possibility....

Red Sox.... Papi

Yankees... Giambroid, A-roid, Pettite, Sheffroid, Clemens(obviously he took them after he sucked it up his last 2 seasons with Sox...proof is in the EPIC turnaround in his numbers).

I'd say the Yankees are still well up on the Sox...and that is IF Ortiz took them.

[schillingouttheks]

Why does this always have to turn into a Red Sox vs. Yankees thing? There's no doubt in my mind that's why this thread was started.

[yeszir]

Why does this always have to turn into a Red Sox vs. Yankees thing? There's no doubt in my mind that's why this thread was started.

:dunno: Its almost as if the two fan groups like hate each other or something

[schillingouttheks]

It's retarded. You'd think we could just focus on the issue instead of constantly turning it into a "but the Red Sox/Yankees might do it too!"

Whatev.

[Ray10]

Please explain to me how you don't know whether you took steroids or not I'm pretty sure you'd know what you're taking and what youre not taking.

[THE ARS]

Please explain to me how you don't know whether you took steroids or not I'm pretty sure you'd know what you're taking and what youre not taking.

Read this again, please.


"...And living here in D.R, you don't know how it works around here, for some kids, it's sign or live in poverty, so they'll take whatever their trainer gives them without asking, and a lot of them will juice unknowingly, since they'll be told that it's "injected vitamin B complex", and when you're nearly homeless, you'd take cocaine up the ass to make it up the states, so they'll just do as they're told, no questions asked, and it think that's what Ortiz was referring to." - DipreG



Tom

[Ray10]

Read this again, please.


"...And living here in D.R, you don't know how it works around here, for some kids, it's sign or live in poverty, so they'll take whatever their trainer gives them without asking, and a lot of them will juice unknowingly, since they'll be told that it's "injected vitamin B complex", and when you're nearly homeless, you'd take cocaine up the ass to make it up the states, so they'll just do as they're told, no questions asked, and it think that's what Ortiz was referring to." - DipreG



Tom

Ah ok.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Why does this always have to turn into a Red Sox vs. Yankees thing? There's no doubt in my mind that's why this thread was started.
Yes. That was my sole purpose in starting this thread. Are you psychic?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The firestorm has been around ARod and the few idiots who have managed to get themselves in criminal trouble by perjuring themselves, e.g. Clemens, Bonds, Tejada. No one else is in the news for Roids.

Wow, I haven't heard any buzz about that 103 player list of unnamed (so far) who've tested positive for steroids.


Really? Who are those people that have their eyes on Ortiz? Good luck at trying to create suspicion by your own baseless rumor mongering

Any knowledgable baseball fan.


His statements concern his youth in the DR, not 2003-2006. I guess you missed that part of the article. The article is old news and irrelevant as are your posts in this thread.

Are you stupid or just in denial?

[BoSox21]

What proof do you have that he's taken steroids other than you laying in your bed at night trying to put two and two together?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What proof do you have that he's taken steroids other than you laying in your bed at night trying to put two and two together?
What proof do we have about Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, for that matter?

[Dojji]

That is in fact irrelevant. We are talking about David Ortiz, not Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa.

[BoSox21]

What proof do we have about Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, for that matter?

McGwire was accused by Canseco and by his own brother and has never denied using and Sosa was accused by Jason Grimsley as having at least used amphetamines.

Is there anything out there resembling those kinds of accusations against Ortiz?

[a700hitter]

What proof do we have about Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, for that matter?Canseco stated quite clearly in his book that he injected McGwire. Also, did you forget, McGwire's little stunt where he refused to discuss steroid use at a Congressional hearing? As for Sosa, there is less evidence against him, but he did drop about 30 lbs in one off season after BALCO broke and had to resort to a new way of cheating-- caulked bats. In case you haven't noticed, Sosa is not under investigation and there isn't a lot of buzz about him these days, except from idiots in sports forums. No one is suspecting or investigating Ortiz, no matter how hard you are trying to smear him in your pathetic way.

It drives you crazy that so many Yankees have been outed as cheaters and liars and that HOF election may no longer be possible for some of them. It bothers you even more that no prominant Red Sox has been named or implicated. You are engaging in a desperate smear campaign that you are hoping people will notice. Maybe some Sox are on the list or maybe not. If they did it, they probably stopped after the 2003 season after the random testing and the BALCO hearing in the off season. Lots of guys went off the juice in that off season, like IRod, Giambi and Sosa (sneezed and went on the DL for a month). It doesn't matter to me, because there is no evidence anywhere that a single Red Sox player used PED s during the 2004 or 2007 seasons. The Red Sox championship clubhouse was clean compared to the crack den in the Yankee Championship clubhouses. The Yankees were universally praised for playing the game the right way, but they were cheating and doping up like common criminals while Joe Torre willingly turned to look the other way. The beloved, trusted father figure admits in his book that he should have known. That was among dozens of other revelations where the trusting father figure ratted out his players like a scandal sheet author. Your championships were tainted and sullied by a bunch of cheaters , thugs, crooks and phonies (Torre). Let's face it, the 1996 team featured two disgraced Mets who were serial drug policy violators who have never been able to get their lives on track.

Do I care if Nomar's name is on the list, or Troy O'Leary's? No , I don't. They never won anything for the Red Sox. Do I care if Trot's name is on the 2003 list? No, I do not, because the Sox won in 2004. Trot, obviously went off the juice in the 2003 off season, because he came to camp with a mystery ailment that kept him out of all but 48 games that season. He claimed that he got a knot in his buttocks on the drive to Ft. Myers. That developed into a back problem that kept him out till June. IMO, Manny's and Ortiz's names will not be on any list no matter how much you wish for it, because PED users usually don't have rolls of fat around their midsections which they both prominently displayed during the 2004 championship clubhouse celebration. Also, neither one of them had even one well-defined muscle.

[a700hitter]

By a700Hitter:

Really? Who are those people that have their eyes on Ortiz? Good luck at trying to create suspicion by your own baseless rumor mongering




Any knowledgable baseball fan.
Really? That's why you had to go back to 2007 for an article that discusses Ortiz on the same page as sterioids. It sounds like the press is all over this story.

Are you stupid or just in denial?Neiter. I am just waiting for the disclosure of some fact or other evidence that would support your obviously biased and unsupported speculation.:thumbdown

[26 to 6]

OK...let's assume Papi did juice..and it is a possibility....

Red Sox.... Papi

Yankees... Giambroid, A-roid, Pettite, Sheffroid, Clemens(obviously he took them after he sucked it up his last 2 seasons with Sox...proof is in the EPIC turnaround in his numbers).

I'd say the Yankees are still well up on the Sox...and that is IF Ortiz took them.
Are you serious dude? OK, first off Papi, if he used, is not the only Red Sox player to have used steroids. I believe there were 12 in the Mitchell Report. And that's not counting those that we don't know about. It really isn't fair to compare the number of players when we don't know exactly who was using. And if the Sox fans want to make the argument, as they've done for years, that we don't win game 7 in 2003 without Giambi's steroid-enhanced bat, then it's only fair to say the same thing about games 4 and 5 in 2004. Let's be real here. I honestly can't say I'm shocked at some of the responses from you guys here in this thread.

[BoSox21]

And if the Sox fans want to make the argument, as they've done for years, that we don't win game 7 in 2003 without Giambi's steroid-enhanced bat, then it's only fair to say the same thing about games 4 and 5 in 2004.

Who on the 2004 Red Sox has been accused of taking PEDs?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Really? That's why you had to go back to 2007 for an article that discusses Ortiz on the same page as sterioids. It sounds like the press is all over this story.

Ho-ly shit. I didn't say anything about the press, I don't give a fuck about the press. The press kept touting as A-Rod as the future 'clean' home run king. Fuck 'em. I said 'knowledgable fans'.


Neiter. I am just waiting for the disclosure of some fact or other evidence that would support your obviously biased and unsupported speculation.:thumbdown

Ding ding ding! That MUST be it, I'm biased against DAVID ORTIZ, ONE OF MY FAVORITE PLAYERS ON MY FAVORITE TEAM.



My god.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

That is in fact irrelevant. We are talking about David Ortiz, not Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa.
Well a700hitter is all about the big C word (conjecture), so I figured I'd show him that if thinking that Ortiz juiced is conjecture, because of the lack of proof, well then we don't have any cold hard proof for McGwire and Sosa, other than word of mouth.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Canseco stated quite clearly in his book that he injected McGwire. Also, did you forget, McGwire's little stunt where he refused to discuss steroid use at a Congressional hearing? As for Sosa, there is less evidence against him, but he did drop about 30 lbs in one off season after BALCO broke and had to resort to a new way of cheating-- caulked bats. In case you haven't noticed, Sosa is not under investigation and there isn't a lot of buzz about him these days, except from idiots in sports forums. No one is suspecting or investigating Ortiz, no matter how hard you are trying to smear him in your pathetic way.

It drives you crazy that so many Yankees have been outed as cheaters and liars and that HOF election may no longer be possible for some of them. It bothers you even more that no prominant Red Sox has been named or implicated. You are engaging in a desperate smear campaign that you are hoping people will notice. Maybe some Sox are on the list or maybe not. If they did it, they probably stopped after the 2003 season after the random testing and the BALCO hearing in the off season. Lots of guys went off the juice in that off season, like IRod, Giambi and Sosa (sneezed and went on the DL for a month). It doesn't matter to me, because there is no evidence anywhere that a single Red Sox player used PED s during the 2004 or 2007 seasons. The Red Sox championship clubhouse was clean compared to the crack den in the Yankee Championship clubhouses. The Yankees were universally praised for playing the game the right way, but they were cheating and doping up like common criminals while Joe Torre willingly turned to look the other way. The beloved, trusted father figure admits in his book that he should have known. That was among dozens of other revelations where the trusting father figure ratted out his players like a scandal sheet author. Your championships were tainted and sullied by a bunch of cheaters , thugs, crooks and phonies (Torre). Let's face it, the 1996 team featured two disgraced Mets who were serial drug policy violators who have never been able to get their lives on track.

Are you on crack?

[schillingouttheks]

Yes. That was my sole purpose in starting this thread. Are you psychic?

Seeing as this is very old news, and the timing of the thread is more than questionable, it's kind of easy to see that you are trying to take the attention off of the Yankees and placing some of it on the Red Sox. As already shown, this has nothing to do with regards to A-Rod's situation, nor any evidence to support what you are trying to suggest by creating the thread.

EDIT: wait, who were you before you changed your name? I am so effing confused.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I am the artist formerly known as Jacoby_Ellsbury.

[yeszir]

I am the artist formerly known as Jacoby_Ellsbury.

Yea, I should have cleared this up probably.

He asked to have his name changed. I'm pretty sure he didn't switch over to being a yankee fan as well. :dunno:

[a700hitter]

Ho-ly shit. I didn't say anything about the press, I don't give a fuck about the press. The press kept touting as A-Rod as the future 'clean' home run king. Fuck 'em. I said 'knowledgable fans'.There are lots of knowledgeable fans on this forum who don't suspect Ortiz at all or no more than any other player, so it is not an issue. You are the only one making it an issue with your 2007 article, which is proof of nothing


Ding ding ding! That MUST be it, I'm biased against DAVID ORTIZ, ONE OF MY FAVORITE PLAYERS ON MY FAVORITE TEAM.

My god.My god... indeed. You are insisting upon smearing your favorite player on your favorite team with repeated baseless innuendo. I hope that you are not the president of his fan club. I think that you might really be hearing that "Ding Ding Ding" in your head or that is the alarm that sounds when the mental facility goes into lock down.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Yea, I should have cleared this up probably.

He asked to have his name changed. I'm pretty sure he didn't switch over to being a yankee fan as well. :dunno:
I didn't think it would be that hard to figure out, since I kept my avatar and my location listing the same.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

There are lots of knowledgeable fans on this forum who don't suspect Ortiz at all or no more than any other player, so it is not an issue. You are the only one making it an issue with your 2007 article, which is proof of nothing.

Heavily biased Sox fan no want talkie talkie about possible steroid use by Sox player in forum. I see.


My god... indeed. You are insisting upon smearing your favorite player on your favorite team with repeated baseless innuendo. I hope that you are not the president of his fan club. I think that you might really be hearing that "Ding Ding Ding" in your head or that is the alarm that sounds when the mental facility goes into lock down.

Fail.

[a700hitter]

Well a700hitter is all about the big C word (conjecture), so I figured I'd show him that if thinking that Ortiz juiced is conjecture, because of the lack of proof, well then we don't have any cold hard proof for McGwire and Sosa, other than word of mouth.There are eyewitness accounts regarding McGwire-- Canseco and McGwire's brother. That is evidence that is admissible in court. Plus, McGwire did refuse to address the steroid issue under oath at a congressional hearing. You consider this nothing?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

There are eyewitness accounts regarding McGwire-- Cnaseco and McGwire's brother. That is evidence that is admissible in court. Plus, McGwire did refuse to address the steroid issue under oath at a congressional hearing. You consider this nothing?

So what have they been convicted of? What do we know, for sure, 100%, and provide me cold hard proof from something other than random word of mouth and meltdowns on Capitol Hill.

[a700hitter]

Heavily biased Sox fan no want talkie talkie about possible steroid use by Sox player in forum. I see.Not interseted in baseless conjecture about any players.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Not interseted in baseless conjecture about any players.
Sorry to hear that.

[a700hitter]

So what have they been convicted of? What do we know, for sure, 100%, and provide me cold hard proof from something other than random word of mouth and meltdowns on Capitol Hill.The fact that there is evidence means that the accusation or speculation is not baseless. Don't ever apply for law School. You would certainly fail the evidence course.

[a700hitter]

Yea, I should have cleared this up probably.

He asked to have his name changed. I'm pretty sure he didn't switch over to being a yankee fan as well. :dunno:Doesn't matter. I've been itching to write an anti-Yankee post that would get all of the Yankee fans twisted. Buzz was just a convenient excuse for me to go off about the Yankees.:D

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The fact that there is evidence means that the accusation or speculation is not baseless. Don't ever apply for law School. You would certainly fail the evidence course.

So both cases (Ortiz, McGwire/Sosa) are indeed conjecture, just on different levels. One is just more acceptable to you than the other, despite the lack of actual convictions and proof anywhere, which makes you biased. Props.


I'll thank your lack of a brain for helping me prove that.

[a700hitter]

So both cases (Ortiz, McGwire/Sosa) are indeed conjecture, just on different levels. One is just more acceptable to you than the other, despite the lack of actual convictions and proof anywhere, which makes you biased. Props.


I'll thank your lack of a brain for helping me prove that.Wrong. Conjecture is an inference from defective or presumptive evidence or a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork. There are multiple eyewitness accounts against McGwire-- one being his brother. Until that evidence is discredited in court upon cross examination, we are not in the realm of conjecture. People saw him using and they have given their first hand accounts of what they had witnessed. There's no guesswork involved. Concluding that Ortiz used steroids based on quotes from an article discussing how things worked in the DR when he was a kid, is not evidence of anything. You are engaging in some sort of mind reading. You're conclusion is based on presumptive evidence making conjecture. It's too bad that you can't understand the distinction.

[rician blast]

If they did it, they probably stopped after the 2003 season after the random testing and the BALCO hearing in the off season. Lots of guys went off the juice in that off season, like IRod, Giambi and Sosa

I think many just changed what they were using, and HGH entered the picture more prominently. I suspect that there'll be many players using HGH for the next two years, or until the drug policy is amended and they begin testing for it. By then? They'll find some other supplements to use.

[a700hitter]

I didn't think it would be that hard to figure out, since I kept my avatar and my location listing the same.I really never paid much attention to your posts under your prior identity, so why would I notice?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Wrong. Conjecture is an inference from defective or presumptive evidence or a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork. There are multiple eyewitness accounts against McGwire-- one being his brother. Until that evidence is discredited in court upon cross examination, we are not in the realm of conjecture. People saw him using and they have given their first hand accounts of what they had witnessed. There's no guesswork involved. Concluding that Ortiz used steroids based on quotes from an article discussing how things worked in the DR when he was a kid, is not evidence of anything. You are engaging in some sort of mind reading. You're conclusion is based on presumptive evidence making conjecture. It's too bad that you can't understand the distinction.
There haven't been any convictions for McGwire or Sosa. Obviously there haven't been any for Ortiz. There's no proof in either case. You're just all set to believe one case, while completely dismissing the other, without any cold hard proof anywhere. That's okay, just own up to it.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I really never paid much attention to your posts under your prior identity, so why would I notice?
lol sho-wa.

[schillingouttheks]

So both cases (Ortiz, McGwire/Sosa) are indeed conjecture, just on different levels. One is just more acceptable to you than the other, despite the lack of actual convictions and proof anywhere, which makes you biased. Props.


I'll thank your lack of a brain for helping me prove that.

I fail to see how Ortiz's case is anywhere close to McGwire's or Sosa's. You are heavily generalizing their situations, which is the only way they can be comparable, if at all. There are eye-witness accounts against the latter two players, along with physical evidence. Thus, there is a base for speculation. What's the base for Ortiz?

[a700hitter]

I think many just changed what they were using, and HGH entered the picture more prominently. I suspect that there'll be many players using HGH for the next two years, or until the drug policy is amended and they begin testing for it. By then? They'll find some other supplements to use.Just because HGH is undetectable doesn't mean that there is no risk of getting caught. I think a lot of guys went off the juice once the feds started flipping suppliers. Getting caught on a drug test and being suspended is child's play compared to being caught in the web of a federal investigation. Bonds and Clemens, the two biggest stars of their generation might go to jail. Tejada is a convicted felon. Prominent players having their careers ruined and going to jail can be a tremendous deterrent to future users. Does that mean no one is using? No, but I don't think there is any comfort in taking a non detectable substance. McGwire, Clemens, and Bonds did not get in trouble because they failed a drug test.

[a700hitter]

There haven't been any convictions for McGwire or Sosa. Obviously there haven't been any for Ortiz. There's no proof in either case. You're just all set to believe one case, while completely dismissing the other, without any cold hard proof anywhere. That's okay, just own up to it.A brilliant legal mind. Were you on the OJ jury?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I fail to see how Ortiz's case is anywhere close to McGwire's or Sosa's. You are heavily generalizing their situations, which is the only way they can be comparable, if at all. There are eye-witness accounts against the latter two players, along with physical evidence. Thus, there is a base for speculation. What's the base for Ortiz?

I'm not trying to convict anyone. I'm just saying a700 is believing one case that doesn't have cold hard proof to it, yet completely dismisses the other for lack of cold hard proof. The degree to which these stories may be believable is meaningless.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

A brilliant legal mind. Were you on the OJ jury?
I was not.

[a700hitter]

I'm not trying to convict anyone. I'm just saying a700 is believing one case that doesn't have cold hard proof to it, yet completely dismisses the other for lack of cold hard proof. The degree to which these stories may be believable is meaningless.One case has evidence. The other has none. You are skipping over this point as if it is meaningless. Based on what you have presented, a judge would not let the case against Ortiz go to trial. It would be dismissed for lack of evidence. The case against McGwire would certainly go to trial.

[schillingouttheks]

I'm not trying to convict anyone. I'm just saying a700 is believing one case that doesn't have cold hard proof to it, yet completely dismisses the other for lack of cold hard proof. The degree to which these stories may be believable is meaningless.

No, 700 is discussing the relevance of McGwire and Sosa to the recent A-Rod revelations. You brought up a story about Ortiz and are trying to tie it in to the A-Rod situation. It doesn't fit. There are at least other first-hand eyewitnesses to McGwire and Sosa and they have accusers. Ortiz doesn't. See what I mean?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Where's the convictions, where's the proof?



It doesn't really matter, I've accomplished all I wanted to accomplish in this discussion.

[schillingouttheks]

Where's the convictions, where's the proof?



It doesn't really matter, I've accomplished all I wanted to accomplish in this discussion.

Jesus Christ you sound like Hamas after its conflict with Israel.

[a700hitter]

Where's the convictions, where's the proof?



It doesn't really matter, I've accomplished all I wanted to accomplish in this discussion.Change your name again. Your reputation under this new name is already shot to hell.

[kreinbihl34]

Where's the convictions, where's the proof?



It doesn't really matter, I've accomplished all I wanted to accomplish in this discussion.

Convictions aren't necessary to understand what Sosa and McGwire were doing during their careers. Just because there is no hard evidence doesn't mean they're any less guilty. First hand sightings of injections, along with evidence that both were on amphetamines, can lead to more than speculation that both were on PEDs while active players. Add to evidence of Sosa's weight lost and McGwire's inability to admit to anything in front of Congress results in both being highly likely to be involved with steroids.

Now with Ortiz we have an overweight slugger who resembles a fast food abuser, compared to a steroid junkie. Realize that Ortiz has never be accused, never had a significant weight loss or gain in his career, and asides from a breakout season, has no evidence of every taking PEDs. Steroids taken whether while working out or not would lead to a weight increase, or most likely a muscle increase. There are other results but the muscle gaining is ideal one. Can you honestly sit and argue that Ortiz has gained muscle/lost weight in a dramatic fashion?

Seriously just take of the middle school girl panties and man up. There's no sense in acting like a punk, kid.

[TheKilo]

So wait, you can just change your name whenever you want?

[Soxfan#1]

Message Yeszir.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Change your name again. Your reputation under this new name is already shot to hell.

Your opinion means the world to me.


Seriously just take of the middle school girl panties and man up. There's no sense in acting like a punk, kid.


000000OOOOOOOOO000OOOOO!!!! :blink:

[schillingouttheks]

You still haven't refuted my point.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

edit - nvm

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You brought up a story about Ortiz and are trying to tie it in to the A-Rod situation. It doesn't fit.

I'm tying it into the steroids scandal, not A-Rod.


There are at least other first-hand eyewitnesses to McGwire and Sosa and they have accusers. Ortiz doesn't. See what I mean?

Show me the convictions and show me the undeniable proof.



The whole point of me doing this was to show how a700 quickly dismisses my view as 'conjecture', but then he believes in something that is no actual, solid proof of. We can make assumptions based on Capitol Hill and all that shit.

[schillingouttheks]

I'm tying it into the steroids scandal, not A-Rod.



Show me the convictions and show me the undeniable proof.



The whole point of me doing this was to show how a700 quickly dismisses my view as 'conjecture', but then he believes in something that is no actual, solid proof of. We can make assumptions based on Capitol Hill and all that shit.

...but there's no basis to your conjecture. I have said this time and time again, yet it doesn't seem to stick. There is basis for conjecture of Sosa and McGwire BECAUSE OF THE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THEM. There is NONE for Ortiz, so it makes no sense to conjecture about him until someone actually comes forward and says something about it. I wouldn't be surprised if Ortiz is also in the middle of this, but as of right now, there is NO REASON to talk about Ortiz.

700 has only mentioned Sosa and McGwire because there are already accusations against them. What exactly does he believe? All I've been reading is him giving his input on the possibility of them having used. It makes sense to talk about it, since other people have accused them. Solid proof is not necessary for such a discussion. Neither is it needed for a discussion about Ortiz, but what IS needed for a discussion about Ortiz is a BASIS for the discussion. There isn't any.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

...but there's no basis to your conjecture. I have said this time and time again, yet it doesn't seem to stick. There is basis for conjecture of Sosa and McGwire BECAUSE OF THE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THEM. There is NONE for Ortiz, so it makes no sense to conjecture about him until someone actually comes forward and says something about it. I wouldn't be surprised if Ortiz is also in the middle of this, but as of right now, there is NO REASON to talk about Ortiz.

700 has only mentioned Sosa and McGwire because there are already accusations against them. What exactly does he believe? All I've been reading is him giving his input on the possibility of them having used. It makes sense to talk about it, since other people have accused them. Solid proof is not necessary for such a discussion. Neither is it needed for a discussion about Ortiz, but what IS needed for a discussion about Ortiz is a BASIS for the discussion. There isn't any.

We're going around in circles with no end in sight.


Keep in mind, I don't actually think McGwire and Sosa are innocent. The only reason I brought it up was in response to a700's constant 'You don't know that!', 'That's conjecture!', 'No proof!' comments, when he himself is arguing about something that he can only make assumptions about, and doesn't have proof. I've already made my point, so I'm done in here. kthxbai

[BoSox21]

For McGwire and Sosa, there's no tangible proof but where there's smoke, there's fire

There isn't even any smoke around Ortiz

[Dojji]

We're going around in circles with no end in sight.

"we?"



Keep in mind, I don't actually think McGwire and Sosa are innocent. The only reason I brought it up was in response to a700's constant 'You don't know that!', 'That's conjecture!', 'No proof!' comments, when he himself is arguing about something that he can only make assumptions about, and doesn't have proof. I've already made my point, so I'm done in here. kthxbai

There was a point in there? Seriously all you did is broach a possibility and leave.

[a700hitter]

Eyewitness testimony is direct evidence. It is not circumstantial evidence. Any lawyer prosecuting a crime would love to have an eyewitness. A case with two eyewitnesses is a pretty solid case. That's what you have with McGwire-- a very solid case. If the eyewitnesses were lying, McGwire certainly would have a lible case against them, because their books have ruined him and his future earning ability.

[THE ARS]

...Now with Ortiz we have an overweight slugger who resembles a fast food abuser, compared to a steroid junkie. Realize that Ortiz has never be accused, never had a significant weight loss or gain in his career, and asides from a breakout season, has no evidence of every taking PEDs. Steroids taken whether while working out or not would lead to a weight increase, or most likely a muscle increase. There are other results but the muscle gaining is ideal one. Can you honestly sit and argue that Ortiz has gained muscle/lost weight in a dramatic fashion?...


Here are two known steroid users.

Same size, same age. Fought in 1994, the fat guy weighed in one pound lighter.

Now, look at these pictures and tell me how you know who uses and who doesn't?


:) :) "Eyewitness testimony is direct evidence. It is not circumstantial evidence." - 700 :) :)


700, what fucking testimony are you speaking of?

Eyewitness testimony is a statement GIVEN UNDER OATH.

When did this happen?

I must have missed it?

[Dojji]

700, what fucking testimony are you speaking of?

Eyewitness testimony is a statement GIVEN UNDER OATH.

When did this happen?


Not precisely under oath, but if the authors of some of these books had been lying and McGwire could prove it, he could probably sue them for libel, New York Times V. Sullivan notwithstanding.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

For McGwire and Sosa, there's no tangible proof but where there's smoke, there's fire

Sho-wa :rolleyes:


"we?"

Yup


There was a point in there? Seriously all you did is broach a possibility and leave.

I wish I had a loftier purpose for doing this, but...

[BoSox21]

I don't get it, these are people who carry a considerable amount of credibility who have named McGwire and Sosa. In McGwire's case, his former teammate and his own brother. In Sosa's case, a Federal Agent.

NO ONE, let alone anyone who would carry credibility, has named Ortiz.

[BoSox21]

Sho-wa :rolleyes:

Seriously, do you have any intelligent rebuttal to anything anyone is saying or are you going to keep dishing out your stupid, sarcastic, condescending one-liners?

[italstallianion]

Seriously, do you have any intelligent rebuttal to anything anyone is saying or are you going to keep dishing out your stupid, sarcastic, condescending one-liners?

I have a feeling that you already knew the answer to that one.

[ORS]

If Canseco saying you did steroids hasn't reached the level of "proof" yet, then the definition of proof must have changed. Canseco was ridiculed for his claims in his books, but he's been vindicated as more information comes out. His word is like gospel on the subject, and he says he stuck McGwire himself. If that isn't "proof", then there never will be.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Seriously, do you have any intelligent rebuttal to anything anyone is saying or are you going to keep dishing out your stupid, sarcastic, condescending one-liners?
Angry?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

If Canseco saying you did steroids hasn't reached the level of "proof" yet, then the definition of proof must have changed. Canseco was ridiculed for his claims in his books, but he's been vindicated as more information comes out. His word is like gospel on the subject, and he says he stuck McGwire himself. If that isn't "proof", then there never will be.
Its a believable source, but it doesn't really fall under 'proof', IMO.

[TheKilo]

Its a believable source, but it doesn't really fall under 'proof', IMO.

Not just a believable source, but a reliable source. At what point does this become proof for you?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

When its something other than word of mouth.

[BSN07]

Jesus, did the artist formally know as JE forget to take his ridilin? Or has he always been like this and I just totally missed it?


Also, had no idea we could switch names, it has rekindled the creative fires the came up with bosoxnation07, maybe I should change it up as well:D


What would be everyone's alternative to there current user name?

[BoSox21]

BobSacamano

[TheKilo]

When its something other than word of mouth.

Even if Canseco hasn't been wrong yet?

Word of mouth also implies he heard it from someone else - Canseco says he witnessed McGwire doing steroids.

[Keeper]

What would be everyone's alternative to there current user name?

Posting in the Clutch.

[BSN07]

BobSacamano


Posting in the Clutch.

:lol::lol: Good stuff.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Jesus, did the artist formally know as JE forget to take his ridilin? Or has he always been like this and I just totally missed it?

Been like what?

[a700hitter]

Not precisely under oath, but if the authors of some of these books had been lying and McGwire could prove it, he could probably sue them for libel, New York Times V. Sullivan notwithstanding.Precisely, if these statements are untrue, they are without a doubt libelous. McGwire's inaction in light of these damaging statements speaks volumes. Even the inveterate liar, Clemens brought a libel suit against McNamee. McGwire's case must really stink if it is not as strong as Clemens' case.

[a700hitter]

When its something other than word of mouth.An eyewitness account of an incident or crime is not "word of mouth." Maintaining that it is just word of mouth is just foolish.

You have obviously let your anger at another poster (me) and your desire to win an argument with that poster interfere with sound logic.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

An eyewitness account of an incident or crime is not "word of mouth." Maintaining that it is just word of mouth is just foolish.

Then what is it? No one's testified anything. Bring them into court, put their hand on a bible, make them testify under oath. Until you do that, its just he said she said now matter how reliable the information/source may be.


You have obviously let your anger at another poster (me) and your desire to win an argument with that poster interfere with sound logic.

I don't give a shit about this argument. I've already said that I do believe that Sosa and McGwire did steroids. All I'm showing you is that your constant conjecture remarks on a Red Sox message board are fucking stupid, when a shitload of the stuff we discuss is what-ifs/rumors/possibilities, and you yourself believe something that has no cold hard proof.

[Dojji]

Then what is it?

What it is, is testimony. Testimony doesn't have to be under oath. It just has more force with the law if it is.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What it is, is testimony. Testimony doesn't have to be under oath. It just has more force with the law if it is.
lol



1. Law. the statement or declaration of a witness under oath or affirmation, usually in court.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/testimony

[Dojji]

Which is fine, but we're not using the legal definition here.

[a700hitter]

Then what is it? No one's testified anything. Bring them into court, put their hand on a bible, make them testify under oath. Until you do that, its just he said she said now matter how reliable the information/source may be.
McGwire had the opportunity under oath to dispute the accusation, but he did not. Hmmm. Interesting.

Their written statements if untrue are actionable as their writings have damaged the reputation of McGwire and impaired his earning ability. That makes it more than a he said she said. They have exposed themselves legally if these statements are untrue. Their statements were not hearsay or opinion. They didn't hedge their statements in anyway. They flat out stated they they had injected McGwire with steroids. The fact that McGwire's earning ability has been decimated as a result of his connection to steroids, but has not sued these guys speaks volumes.

[a700hitter]

lol



1. Law. the statement or declaration of a witness under oath or affirmation, usually in court.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/testimonyFrom Websters:

Testimony:

2 a: firsthand authentication of a fact : evidence b: an outward sign c: a solemn declaration usually made orally by a witness under oath in response to interrogation by a lawyer or authorized public official

3 a: an open acknowledgment b: a public profession of religious experience

An eyewitness account fits nicely in 2a.

[a700hitter]

I don't give a shit about this argument. I've already said that I do believe that Sosa and McGwire did steroids. All I'm showing you is that your constant conjecture remarks on a Red Sox message board are fucking stupid, when a shitload of the stuff we discuss is what-ifs/rumors/possibilities, and you yourself believe something that has no cold hard proof.What I believe is not at issue here? It's just not worth discussing a rumor unless there is some reliable evidence to back it up. Hell. on this forum we don't like trade rumors unless there is a link to at least support that it is a rumor. Eyewitness accounts from two people elevates something far beyond the level of a baseless rumor or a suspicion which is what you have about Ortiz. You keep mentioning that there is no "proof" with regard to McGwire. Proof does not require a decision by a court. Proof is "the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact." This is from Websters dictionary. These two first hand accounts are evidence. Is this evidence enough to prove the accusation? That is a debatable point. In Ortiz' case there is no evidence.

[THE ARS]

Precisely, if these statements are untrue, they are without a doubt libelous. McGwire's inaction in light of these damaging statements speaks volumes. Even the inveterate liar, Clemens brought a libel suit against McNamee. McGwire's case must really stink if it is not as strong as Clemens' case.

Inaction speaks of ...inaction. Nothing more.

Maybe he doesn't care what you think.

Why do you call Roger Clemens a liar? How are the two related if McGwire does nothing and Clemens takes offense?

Do you have any PROOF he is lying?

You, Sir, are talking out of your ass. And what you are saying stinks.

Legally, anyway.

I know these motherfuckers did steroids. :D

But still, you would make a sorry ass attorney.



Tom

[Dojji]

Lucky for us no one needs to prove anything in court.

[THE ARS]

My goodness, 700, more talk.

From your ass.

- Proof is "the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact." -

Tell me what this means.

Layman's terms, please.

Fuck it, just use cogency in a sentence.:D


Tom

[THE ARS]

Lucky for us no one needs to prove anything in court.

Lucky for us we took a chance on a career minor league goaltender.

Start a Bruins thread, man.


Tom

EDIT: I mean this in a good way Dojji. :)

Start a Bruins thread.

[a700hitter]

Inaction speaks of ...inaction. Nothing more.

Maybe he doesn't care what you think.You don't think he cares that his damaged reputation has cost him a lot of money? Inaction in the face of a reduction in income caused by the malicious lies of another would be a normal reaction by McGwire and his lawyer? You are serious? If you marketed a product using McGwire's or any player's name or likeness, you would be slapped with an injunction and a lawsuit so fast that your head would spin, but you think a player of McGwire's stature would just sit back and let his livelihood be destroyed by two liars?



Do you have any PROOF he (Clemens) is lying?There is testimonial evidence from his best friend, Andy Pettitte and a sworn affidavit from Pettitte's wife submitted to Congress. Again, you as others, are misusing the word proof. It is evidence that proves a case. Proof is not a higher level of evidence.


You, Sir, are talking out of your ass. And what you are saying stinks.

Legally, anyway.Your understanding of evidence and misuse of the term "proof" demonstrates that you have had no legal training.

[a700hitter]

My goodness, 700, more talk.

From your ass.

- Proof is "the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact." -

Tell me what this means.

Layman's terms, please.

Fuck it, just use cogency in a sentence.:D


TomI just used it in a sentence.:lol:

[THE ARS]

You don't think he cares that his damaged reputation has cost him a lot of money? Inaction in the face of a reduction in income caused by the malicious lies of another would be a normal reaction by McGwire and his lawyer? You are serious? If you marketed a product using McGwire's or any player's name or likeness, you would be slapped with an injunction and a lawsuit so fast that your head would spin, but you think a player of McGwire's stature would just sit back and let his livelihood be destroyed by two liars?

There is testimonial evidence from his best friend, Andy Pettitte and a sworn affidavit from Pettitte's wife submitted to Congress. Again, you as others, are misusing the word proof. It is evidence that proves a case. Proof is not a higher level of evidence.

Your understanding of evidence and misuse of the term "proof" demonstrates that you have had no legal training.

$74,688,354

That's how much money he made playing baseball. So, my future public defender friend, I will say it again.

Maybe he doesn't care what you think? Maybe that SEVENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS says fuck you 700 and all of your gay fucking message board friends can kiss his freckled ass.

Or not.

I have no idea. I don't have Mark McGwire over for dinner.

I would.

We just don't run in the same circles.

As for your "Testimonial Evidentiary" shit talk, see my post above that you ignored.

The post defining what we are talking about. You remember? Under oath? Junky brother grubbing money was legit "eyewitness testimony"

You can't forget that this quickly?

When you can defend your stance on that we'll talk further.



Tom

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Inaction speaks of ...inaction. Nothing more.

Maybe he doesn't care what you think.

Why do you call Roger Clemens a liar? How are the two related if McGwire does nothing and Clemens takes offense?

Do you have any PROOF he is lying?

You, Sir, are talking out of your ass. And what you are saying stinks.

Legally, anyway.

I know these motherfuckers did steroids. :D

But still, you would make a sorry ass attorney.



Tom
this

[a700hitter]

$74,688,354

That's how much money he made playing baseball. So, my future public defender friend, I will say it again.

Maybe he doesn't care what you think? Maybe that SEVENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS says fuck you 700 and all of your gay fucking message board friends can kiss his freckled ass.Of course, he must be sitting back and thinking "screw those CEO's that don't want me to endorse their products for millions of dollars, because of my damaged reputation. I have enough money for the rest of my life. I don't want to take Canseco and my brother to task for their lies." Of course that must be what he is thinking.:rolleyes:


As for your "Testimonial Evidentiary" shit talk, see my post above that you ignored.

The post defining what we are talking about. You remember? Under oath? Junky brother grubbing money was legit "eyewitness testimony"

You can't forget that this quickly?I addressed it. You either forgot, didn't notice or understand the response. A first person account of an event is evidence. Of course the evidence can be discredited by lots of factors including the fact that his brother was/is a junky who needs money, but it is admissible evidence nonetheless.


When you can defend your stance on that we'll talk further.Yes, I have may have to take some courses on evidence.

[Fenways Faithful]

wow i cant beleive i just wasted this much time reading this. i dont know if it was the fighting that caught my attention or the fact that all the people talking legal shit wont budge no matter what. if i showed a picture of mcguire or sosa injecting themselves with steroids you still would say some bullshit about it being photoshopped or something stupid like that. for the record. i would not be surprised if ortiz did take steroids at some time or another. the fact that he is my favorite player makes me hope that he hasnt. i wont be ignorant about that chance of it though. but until some reliable sources or facts are shown he is clean in my book. sosa, clemens, a-rod, mcguire did steroids and we all know it. fact or no fact. proof or no proof you know they did. this thread has gone about 8 pages too long. holy shit

[TheKilo]

this thread is only 5 pages n00b

[Dojji]

You mean you've never seen a 5 page thread so full of fail that it should have been stopped 3 pages before it started?

[Fenways Faithful]

well i dont know whats up with my computer cuz im reading this on page 10. but who cares how long you get my point.

[Coco's Disciples]

Page 10 for me. I'm not badass enough to change my posts per page rate.

[CrespoBlows]

Not to completely hi-jack this thread with Dolphins talk, but I don't know... outside of the year I lived in Florida (don't believe my listed location to the left, I'm back in Colorado now-a-days), I don't really come across many Dolphins fans. I'm sure they have tons of fans, more than most teams, but they seem kind of rare. :dunno:

... maybe people just don't like wearing aqua and orange.

Ocala is about six hours from Miami. You need to go into Miami/Fort Lauderdale area if you want to meet Dolphins fans.

[BoSox21]

FORT MYERS, Fla. -- David Ortiz says players who test positive for steroids should be suspended from baseball for the whole season.

The Boston Red Sox designated hitter says the way to clean up the game is through testing and not by taking players to court. Houston Astros shortstop Miguel Tejada pleaded guilty last Wednesday to misleading Congress about performance-enhancing drug use in baseball.

Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen suggested the same one-year ban on Sunday.

"I feel we have to do something very drastic about this situation," Guillen told the Chicago Tribune.

Ortiz also says he feels fine after wrist problems last season limited him to 23 homers. He says he took a few months off from swinging and felt a little strange when he started doing it again. But now he says he feels fine.

Ortiz was at Boston's spring training camp Monday, the reporting day for position players. The first full-squad workout is Wednesday.

ESPN.com

Spoken like a true steroid-user

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Spoken like a true steroid-user
Fucktard, I threw out the possibility of him using steroids, given his peculiar career path.



Good try though.

[a700hitter]

Fucktard, I threw out the possibility of him using steroids, given his peculiar career path.



Good try though.
Peculiar career path? Part-time player in his early 20's who came into his own in in his late 20's as a full time player and suffered an injury in his early to mid-30's causing a decrease in his performance. Why is that so peculiar?

[BoSox21]

Fucktard, I threw out the possibility of him using steroids, given his peculiar career path.

From your original post


Allow me to translate - he juiced.

That's throwing out the possibility he juiced? That sounds like you accusing him of juicing. Don't back down now, "fucktard"

[TheKilo]

LOL SARCASM FAIL LOL LOLOLOLOL

[jacksonianmarch]

Ortiz said today that he'd suspend juicers for one yr. But he also said that he doesnt know if he ever juiced. Should he get suspended for half a yr because he might have juiced?

[Coco's Disciples]

...Really?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Ortiz said today that he'd suspend juicers for one yr. But he also said that he doesnt know if he ever juiced. Should he get suspended for half a yr because he might have juiced?
Not until (or if) he actually tests positive.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Peculiar career path? Part-time player in his early 20's who came into his own in in his late 20's as a full time player and suffered an injury in his early to mid-30's causing a decrease in his performance. Why is that so peculiar?

His last three years as a Twin, he played in 130, 89, and 125 games. I'd say that constitutes 'full time player', and yet he only hit 20 homers once, and didn't come close in the other two seasons. He comes to Boston and out of nowhere becomes a middle of the lineup crusher. When you factor that in, and then consider baseball players really don't start to break down in their early thirties (unlike all other major sports)... I definitely have my suspicions.



Look, I think we can all agree that out of all MLB players from the early-mid 90s to around a couple of seasons ago (if not now), any of those guys could and probably were juicing. All of baseball has a cloud over it. You guys act like Ortiz is exempt from this cloud, despite the fact there is some things about him and his career that should cause at least a little suspicion (should you choose to acknowledge them).


But who gives a fuck, it was obviously a mistake for me to post this thread, given how many talksox members clearly have a giant log up their ass right now (hi bosox21).

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

That's throwing out the possibility he juiced?

Yes.


That sounds like you accusing him of juicing.

Yeah... it does looking back. Oh well, reactionary posts happen.


Don't back down now, "fucktard"

Sigh...

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Spoken like a true steroid-user
LOL



Angwy??? Calm down, go to the market and get some bagged milk. That'll ease your nerves.

[kreinbihl34]

HARDCor3 4 postz ina row to show my intelligence!!!!SHIFT+1!

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

HARDCor3 4 postz ina row to show my intelligence!!!!SHIFT+1!

Interesting stuff from this guy...


Seriously just take of the middle school girl panties and man up. There's no sense in acting like a punk, kid.

LOL @ the hypocrite fuck who starts shit with me after having zero previous interaction with me.



D00d, NO!!!

[a700hitter]

His last three years as a Twin, he played in 130, 89, and 125 games. I'd say that constitutes 'full time player', and yet he only hit 20 homers once, and didn't come close in the other two seasons. He comes to Boston and out of nowhere becomes a middle of the lineup crusher. When you factor that in, and then consider baseball players really don't start to break down in their early thirties (unlike all other major sports)... I definitely have my suspicions.He had 400 ABs in 2 of his 3 last years with the Twins and only 300 ABs in the other year. This indicates that he was not a full time player and that he was being platooned with a RH hitter who was taking the other 200- 300 ABs. Many hitters have their biggest power production years from age 27-31/32. It's not that eye-opening for a hitter to hit more during those years than at other times in his career. It's quite common throughout the history of the game. As for breaking down, it is very common for large guys like Ortiz to break down in their early 30's, e.g Boog Powell, Mo Vaughn, Frank Howard.


Look, I think we can all agree that out of all MLB players from the early-mid 90s to around a couple of seasons ago (if not now), any of those guys could and probably were juicing. All of baseball has a cloud over it. You guys act like Ortiz is exempt from this cloud, despite the fact there is some things about him and his career that should cause at least a little suspicion (should you choose to acknowledge them).Everybody is under a cloud of suspicion, but you are pointing to a very normal career path and aging process as some sort of evidence of juicing. There is no evidence that would raise the suspicion with regard to Ortiz. Big power from a big man in his late 20's and early 30's is not an indicator of Roids.


But who gives a fuck, it was obviously a mistake for me to post this thread, given how many talksox members clearly have a giant log up their ass right now (hi bosox21).Your mistake was that the support for your argument was very flimsy resulting in challenges from other posters.

[BoSox21]

And that everytime his argument becomes overmatched, he replies with a stupid insult

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

He had 400 ABs in 2 of his 3 last years with the Twins and only 300 ABs in the other year. This indicates that he was not a full time player and that he was being platooned with a RH hitter who was taking the other 200- 300 ABs. Many hitters have their biggest power production years from age 27-31/32. It's not that eye-opening for a hitter to hit more during those years than at other times in his career. It's quite common throughout the history of the game. As for breaking down, it is very common for large guys like Ortiz to break down in their early 30's, e.g Boog Powell, Mo Vaughn, Frank Howard.

Well yeah, but we're talking 20 HR/year to 50 HR/year.


Everybody is under a cloud of suspicion, but you are pointing to a very normal career path and aging process as some sort of evidence of juicing. There is no evidence that would raise the suspicion with regard to Ortiz. Big power from a big man in his late 20's and early 30's is not an indicator of Roids.

Sigh... there's no point in saying it again, I've already said it enough times.


Your mistake was that the support for your argument was very flimsy resulting in challenges from other posters.

:rolleyes:



The evidence (not that he did juice, but that he might have) is there, if you choose to acknowledge it.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

And that everytime his argument becomes overmatched, he replies with a stupid insult

Since I have better things to bother myself with than your retarded 'hee akyoosed papi!' rantings, I'll just throw you on ignore.


I suggest you do the same, if you're having that much trouble getting off my dick.

[Dojji]

You realize that you just proved him right.

[BoSox21]

You realize that you just proved him right.

Spot on.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You realize that you just proved him right.
How so? By deciding to just put his bitchy ass on ignore and not have to read his shit?

Or because I'm tired of beating the dead horse?

[ORS]

Well yeah, but we're talking 20 HR/year to 50 HR/year.
Not really. Going by just the counting stat, you lose the perspective of playing time that a700 is trying to draw attention to.

It's 20HR/350AB to 50HR/600AB. See how the denominators aren't the same? A common measure is to flip that and measure AB per HR. Here's Ortiz in that measure for his career with corresponding age, team, and year.

Age|Team|Year|AB|HR|AB/HR
24|MIN|2000|415|10|41.50
25|MIN|2001|303|18|16.83
26|MIN|2002|412|20|20.60
27|BOS|2003|448|31|14.45
28|BOS|2004|582|41|14.19
29|BOS|2005|601|47|12.79
30|BOS|2006|558|54|10.33
31|BOS|2007|549|35|15.69
32|BOS|2008|416|23|18.08

Steady improvement through his physical peak (27-31), with an outlier to the good (2006) and to the bad (2002) and regression due to injury at the tail end of it. This is a perfectly normal progression.